How to Not Ruin a Franchise, With Nathan Canilao

I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of, major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story. Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins is not prescribed Caplyta Lumateperone. I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta Lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common. Patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects. Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at Caplyta.com or call 888-788-7888. Brian Dawkins is not prescribed. I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta, Lumateperone. Proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Learn more at Caplyta.com or call 825-248-24. Welcome to the Ring of WNBA show. I'm Sirit Sohi. No, that is not an old-timey landline ringing right now. You don't have to check your phone. It is, in fact, the Chicago Sky swear jar, which is pretty much filled up to the brim. I guess the Chicago Sky were feeling generous. We are, of course, going to, at the end of the season, tally all this up, and I'm going to donate a certain amount of money depending on, you know, it really just depends on how the Chicago Sky feel to a Chicago charity organization that we have not chosen yet. Again, very open to suggestions on that. But, look, the Chicago Sky decided to make Monday a very interesting day in the WNBA. Skylar Diggins is going to be coming off the bench for the Sky. We found that out via her Instagram story where she posted, now I'm coming off the bench, question mark, question mark, question mark, with a thumbs up, and cool. After which, she then went on live and said, after which she then posted a selfie video where she said, and the crazy part about it all, is that I've been so quiet. I've been so good and quiet. You really have to listen to that part yourselves, because there is some, there is some tell Cersei I want her to know energy. There is, there is threat. There is just a look in her eyes that she's about to empty the clip. I'm not sure what that would change, honestly, because Skylar, can talk her shit. She can give her the tea. I don't know that it would change anything that I feel about the Chicago Sky, because, look, a lot of you guys got mad at me in the offseason. Cerit, why are you being so negative about the Chicago Sky? Cerit, why are you focusing so much on the gossip and the rumor mills and making jokes about Courtney VanderSloot, all-time WNBA legend, future Hall of Famer, assist leader, and how she is running the Chicago Sky organization? Because it turns out that she kind of is. Turns out that, like, like Courtney VanderSloot herself said, Skylar Diggins is really just keeping her seat warm. The 37-year-old Courtney VanderSloot is back from an ACL injury. To her credit, she is playing really well. The Sky have like a plus 20 net rating with her in the game. Their offense clearly flows better with her on the court. Skylar Diggins has had a pretty tough season out of, you know, 20 players who have led the league in pick and roll, in quantity of pick and rolls ran. She is sixth in volume and nobody has been less efficient than her. She also has not really been that good defensively. So I do understand the impulse, even though Courtney VanderSloot has only been back for three games and, you know, functionally played like, I think, what, like 50 minutes? She has been really good in those 50 minutes. She's been really good in those 50 minutes. I do wonder if it was somebody who wasn't Courtney VanderSloot who didn't have the sway in the organization that she clearly has, if this decision would have been made so quickly, especially from a coaching staff that has not really, you know, for me, they haven't been the boldest in their decision making. So there is some conspiracy there. However, this is just what the I don't know why they ever got into this marriage with Skylar Diggins in the first place. She is one of the most outspoken players in the WNBA, and you can bet she is speaking. Jeff Pacliacca alluded to as much earlier at training camp when he said that, you know, he doesn't want to go to the WNBA. He doesn't want to hear from Skylar Diggins if she doesn't have players that she can go to war with. She has perpetually been the squeaky wheel with every franchise that she has been a part of. She is already talking. She's had an interview with Alyssa Hirsch of the Chicago Sun-Times where she talked about feeling confused about the starting lineup change. She's given her blood, sweat and tears to this franchise and has been putting her body on the line all year for the team. She is one of the most outspoken players in the WNBA. She has been putting her body on the line all year for the team. vandersloot you're certainly not benching gabby hawkins same thing um camilla will probably benefit more than anybody else from courtney vandersloot being around and azari stevens as tough of a season as she has had like you kind of just need another body in the paint like we've kind of had this issue with their roster construction at the start of this season where they were so top heavy with guards that you wondered what would happen when courtney vandersloot came back um and this is what's happening and the reality is this doesn't really change how i feel about chicago like this is this is the same place we left them this is a team that has a lot of interesting young talent that's bearing witness to a lot of organizational dysfunction and frankly none of that has actually changed none of how i feel about their timeline has actually changed if anything it's just a reminder like it's a reminder that the chicago sky traded angel reese and got one of the worst possible returns that you could get for a star player a star rookie um under a cost-controlled team contract into late first round picks um which is maybe like if that is one of the worst trades in wnba history it can only be compared to another bad chicago trade and them trading the number three pick which became sonia citron for ariel atkins and a pick swap that will probably convey this year they or you could compare it to the angel reese trade as well the one that they made to get angel reese they functionally traded olivia miles they let the minnesota links have olivia miles so they can move up one spot in the draft to get angel reese who they have since traded this team sucks at asset management um in 2027 they will likely have to convey their pick swap to washington because they're going to have to do it again and again because despite the fact that they wanted to be good this year and they went all in so that this year wouldn't be a humiliation ritual it still feels like one and washington is still better than them despite the fact that washington is one of the youngest teams in the league they also don't have any picks in 2028 because they traded it for jc sheldon this is a draft that has sarah strong this is basically like trading a chance at victor webenyama so you it just doesn't make any sense at all uh and there is a bunch of pie on their face there is perpetually a bunch of pie on their face this is a bad franchise they remain a bad franchise they just humiliate themselves in different ways i don't know it's just a reminder it's just a reminder that the sky picked they essentially picked courtney vander sloot over angel reese because sloot toes the company line and she's from an era that makes them feel good about themselves and she doesn't say things publicly that would embarrass them because they really don't like that this is a franchise that rewards sycophancy and punishes honesty so maybe they'll find skylar diggins maybe they'll suspend her for a quarter of a game maybe they'll part ways so many players have left the chicago sky candace parker kalia copper elena deladon sylvia fowles none of them have had anything nice to say afterwards so i don't know this is just what they do this is what they do and this is what they've always done and i don't expect anything to change they'll probably play slightly better with courtney vander sloot in the starting lineup granted i don't know if the efficiency holds for a player playing 36 minutes a game or 30 minutes a game at 37 years old the way that it's looked you know in the first three games of course you would like to see her be healthy um and continue to be able to do that but we'll see and there also raises a question of what happens to natasha cloud now what happens when dejanay carrington comes back if you're camilla cardoso and you're sydney taylor and you're rakia jackson you're probably watching all of this and wondering when your time's up here and when you can just go somewhere normal which is probably what's gonna happen and you know come 2028 they're the the sky aren't gonna have anything to show for this era of basketball except that they in every every possible opportunity that they had to accept failure they decided they were gonna double down instead which brings me to the los angeles sparks who i just watched get blown out by the seattle storm and a seattle storm front court and awa fam and dominique malanga that could have been in sparks uniforms rakia jackson could be in a sparks uniform they could well i guess so rakia jack they they traded for rakia jackson with a pick that became awa fam um but rakia jackson is also of course no longer on the sparks um these are two franchises that are in a similar kind of hell i think where i think i think when you make impatient when now moves it only incentivizes you to do that more so that you don't you don't eventually end up with egg on your face um but sometimes you're just digging into a deeper hole for yourself and the sparks are now at this place where um they are 8 and 11 they're the 11th seed um they want to be a title contender but they don't even look like a playoff team they don't have kelsey plum who is their entire offense and they probably won't have her until after the all-star break they don't have cam brink who is their only rim protector which means that two power forwards one of them and dierick ahabi who's really an undersized power forward that should be playing like the three and the four off the bench are really your rim protectors and and they're in charge of the paint and that has not been working um they don't have a point guard they haven't had one since julia all i'm on who they let go on the expansion draft even though she was the person who changed her season last year so they don't really have an offense they have a coaches they have a coach who coaches like the five out system that emphasizes three-point shooting and they're 12th in the league in three-point shooting accuracy neko gumake who makes her money in the mid-range is only getting eight percent of her shots from the mid-range this season so that's hard for her it's hard for lynn roberts there's just a there's just a fit issue there um and they just lost to a seattle team that got their six-point lead and they lost to a seattle team that got their six-point lead win of the season they got they got blown out by them after a week off where they supposedly revamped their defense but you can't really revamp your defense that much when you don't have defensive personnel and you can't really reinvent your offense when you don't have a point guard and no one really seems to be able to shoot they are like i said 11th in the standings they have the sixth hardest remaining schedule in the league they play 14 of their remaining 25 games on the road not that it would matter since they're three and seven at home anyways that home crowd does not have anything to cheer for um there is an alternate universe where they never trade for kelsey plum and they have dominique milango with cam brink and rakia jackson which feels like an amazing front court um they have their future draft picks they still have their future draft picks but they're going to be middling now that they're like semi-competitive whereas they could have been where seattle is right now where they have a front row seat to potentially getting juju walk-ins or sarah strong in 2028 juju walk-ins who by the way is an la native who i bet would love to play in a sparks uniform so look like i think that this era of the wnba is really going to be defined by the patient versus the impatience um and the hustlers versus the marks i think seattle teams like seattle that will wait it are the hustlers teams like the valkyries who are we are going to do a deep dive on now um look the valkyries expansion franchise second year in the league now they have a mandate from their ownership to win a title in five years so it's not like they don't have ownership pressure they do but i think in this conversation you're going to hear such a stark contrast between the team building of teams like the sparks and the sky and what the valkyries do there's patience there's intentionality there's vision there's discipline even at moments when there is an opportunity to potentially make a decision that would allow for instant gratification certainly there are still mistakes the valkyries have still made mistakes but they know where they want to go they know how they want to get there and they are filtering every decision they make through that lens and I think teams like that are going to win this era of WNBA basketball and titles. They are far closer to me to a title than either the Sparks or the Sky, and they still have all of their future assets. They have not compromised their future at all, and they still have an exciting present. And that's what sucks for the fans of both of these teams. I think both the Sky and the Sparks fans would have loved to just say, okay, fine, we sacrifice the future, but at least we're getting to watch some really good basketball right now. And they're not getting either. There's nothing to look forward to tomorrow. There's nothing to look forward to a year from now. And that part is deeply, deeply sad. And with the Valkyries, you have a franchise where every day is fun for the fans, and when you think about the future, it gets even more exciting. Let's get into that conversation right after the break. Did you know that psoriatic arthritis may progress over time and could cause permanent joint damage if left untreated? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. 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Nathan, I really wanted to have you on the show to really talk all things Valkyries. But I think the thing, that has really put them in the headlines as of late, is the way that they are just decimating every star player that walks into Valhalla. They walk in and they are not the same. I'll rattle off a few for you guys. Kaitlyn Clark, 14.8 points, 32% field goal percent for her career against the Valkyries. Kelsey Mitchell, 15 points, 36% field goal percent. Those are both career lows. Nobody else has forced either of those players into Valkyries. Worse shooting nights than the Valkyries have. Same goes for Sabrina Unescu, 13 points, 28% from the field. Kalia Copper, 14 points, 35% from the field career, low field goal percentage. Obviously, we saw what they did to Olivia Miles in their second meeting, what they did to Paige Beckers in their latest meeting, what they just did to Alicia Gray, 15.5 points, 33% from the field for her career against the Valkyries. Ryan Howard, 14 points, 35% from the field against the Valkyries. Just astonishingly low. Numbers from. This is all just guards, too. Like, there are bigs that they've shut down, but just astonishingly low numbers from guards that we are pretty accustomed to seeing star-level performances out of. Nathan, how the hell are they doing this? Well, it's so interesting. First of all, thank you for having me on the show, big fan. But it's just been. I mean, there's two parts to it to me. Like, the scheme part, like, they've been able to scheme these guards to, like. Just shut off anything that they feel like is their spot. So, like, I know Natalie Nakase has talked in depth about, like, Kaitlyn Clark and how they know, like, that left hand. Like, if she's going to her left, it's a step back. And so, like, they do a really good job of, like, shutting off, you know, for. Like, for example, I think Ryan Howard, she really likes to get to, like, some of her pull-up jumpers, shut that off. Like, that's, like, the scheme part. But I also think the biggest thing that I think that kind of shuts down a lot of these stars is, like, they just take these match-ups personally. Like, they just. It's just something about going up against a star that kind of just gets their juices flowing on that side of the ball. And I think it kind of stems from that mentality starting from last year of, like, this was a team full of what they would. Like, I think what a lot of people would call around the league as six women. Some of them were not even six women. We're talking about, like, players who, like, Chet Shazam and Lassini kind of got in with Minnesota, kind of been, like. She was more, like, towards the bench. Players like Veronica Burton, who were, like, almost out of the league, you know, if they didn't get picked up by Golden State. These were a lot of players who kind of already had a chip on their shoulders. So when they go into these games, they still feel like that. And, like, Natalie Nakase, I think, is a perfect example of someone who could bring that out of them and kind of make that their identity. And so, like, when they go up against Caitlin Clark, when they go up against Paige Beckers, there is that level of. Obviously, the scheme is so hard to play against for coaches offensively, but. Just the mentality of it, I think, has been the more interesting part of it. And I think that's what really drives them to play well against, you know, a lot of these players. And that's not just Veronica Burton or Gabby Williams. That goes throughout the bench. I feel like even Kyla Charles has kind of emerged as a really solid defender. And she takes that type of mentality into these matchups as well. But overall, I just think that it's hard. It's just hard to score against them when you have, you know, five players locked in, communicating, basically, you know, playing the same way each game. That's just really hard for, I think, the Caitlin Clarks of the world and the Paige Beckers, the Kelsey Plums to kind of figure out on a nightly basis. Yeah, absolutely. I love that you brought up Natalie Nakasi because, I mean, when you just think about where she came from and what her mentality is as well, like, you can see that trickle-down effect on the entire roster, right? Like, we're talking about, you know, five-foot-two, listed as five-foot-two, probably a little bit shorter than that. You know, first American. First American head coach in professional sports, I believe, in America, certainly in the WNBA. Somebody who is a UCLA walk-on and really only got to play because of her grit, her heart, her IQ, her work ethic, like, her ability to just read that scout and really overcome any perceived, like, physical disadvantages that she might have. Like, she was really not somebody that I think you would look at and say, like, oh, this is, like, a high-level defensive player. Or somebody that can make an impact. And I think that that's allowed her and the Valkyries to be able to, you know, see things through that lens and find value in players that a lot of other teams had kind of discarded, right? Like, this is either the expansion. Like, they had the. A lot of this team is still built from, like, not necessarily even the expansion draft anymore, but then, like, hitting the waiver wire, right? Like, the things that they were able to do with Kayla Charles last year that they built on. Now, for Caitlyn Chen to go from a third-rounder to a third-round pick, someone that they even, like, waved at a certain point, to now being, like, this great backup point guard who only adds to their depth and, like, they really don't lose a step at all. But then also, to add Gabby Williams, who I think of all of, like, the star-type players in the league that they could have gone after, probably embodies that ethic more than anybody else, right? Like, this is somebody who has built herself into more of an offensive star, has always kind of, like, hung her hat on the defensive end, an all-star for the first time last year, and this time is actually an all-star starter, which is really cool. I want to talk to you about, like, her reaction, the tears, and just, like, what she means to the Bay Area, but, like, the last thing I'll just add is, like, it's amazing to have, to see them carry over that underdog mentality while having, yes, they have an all-star starter, they have last year starting, they have an all-star from last year in Kayla Thornton, and really, Veronica Burton, who is an all-star-type player, so, like, they do have talent on this team, but they haven't lost any of their edge. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what's interesting, too, is, like, I've mentioned this on a couple other podcasts, but I really do feel like, like, you bring up Gabby, like, they didn't really make a ton of moves. Like, I think a lot of people expected after last year, like, go get the stars, go get everybody, right? It's Joe Lacup, it's the Warriors' ownership, like, they're going to go and push their chips in the middle. They didn't really do that. What they got were, you know, Gabby Williams and Kia Stokes, two starters now on this team, who really just fit their culture, and I think it takes a certain player to play for the Valkyries. Like, I don't know if you could just play and play everybody on this team, because the way that they kind of go about winning games and kind of building this culture is, like, one, you got to be, like, defensively, you at least have to be, at the minimum, like, someone who tries and is, you know, picking up 94 feet, and even if you get beat, like, go recover and give that type of effort. But I think on the other side of it, it's like there's a certain mentality that they look for, and I don't know if every player in the W has it. not to say every player, you know, is not talented enough to make. to play on this team but for hers for natalie nakase system and for what they've built it's just it's a different type of mentality to kind of go into this system and i think gabby is a good example um and i think it speaks a lot to like where the league is because in a league like the w where the talent is so concentrated you know these teams with you know your 1a star there's only a few you know there's a few of them around the league but you know the trickle down you know if you're not that kind of 1a player score you know whatever your mvp candidate type you know all-star level player you kind of get pushed down your role you know there's only 15 teams you know they were 13 really last year 12 before the valkyries came and if you weren't kind of in that that range your role kind of got pushed down i think gabby's a good example of a player who you know showed her her career isn't linear like you know you go into chicago she was a different player then she goes to seattle has a career year but i don't know if many people regarded her as like a player who was a player who was a player who was a player who was a player like this okay she's a 1a like maybe the first uh you know the best or second best player on a championship team she's kind of i feel like she's kind of grown into that and that's just like having the opportunity and being able to fit into a system like the valkyries that i think has allowed her to do that so um yeah i think for for golden state and for for the valkyries like they're very picky with who they bring in even like from not just gabby but like even their developmental player they're very picky on who they wanted to bring in um and i think that just speaks to what their trying to build and kind of like the way their identity that what the how they want to win and how they kind of envision themselves going forward i want to talk about that pickiness in a second but let's let's talk about gabby williams very good week or very good 10 days um she is averaging 16 points three and a half rebounds and you know all the stocks in the world over the last five games or so uh she has this incredible uh fourth quarter against the atlanta dream on pride night she is she she generates 13 straight fourth quarter points um she closes things out and then she yells into the camera that they did it for the gays um you know cribbing off of cheryl reeve um it just struck me as the culmination of what gabby williams can mean to the bay area and i'm sure we'll have so many of these moments throughout the course of the next few years because this is a bay area native um this is you know like famously even like there will we'll talk about it at some point but marine johanna she is shutting down her partner as well like there's that great clip where she like pantomimes and like wants to hold marine's hand at the end of the game marines like i'm not having any of that like you just held me to zero points like what are we doing here um but i just love i love um i love gabby's edge it strikes me as very bay area it's like this style as edge right like there's nothing performative about it at all um and i think it's a great way to kind of like kind of like she's an intimidating defender um she's also like just got this coolness to her like there's a grounded certainty to her like there's like she doesn't really need to announce herself like she just her presence alone sort of announces itself but then she also just like has these moments where she's like it's just like playful she understands the moment she understands like what she means to to that specific bay area crowd um it all just it's it's all felt so seamless and you wrote this great feature about like her bay area roots so like i'd love for you to talk about that feature but also just like how has it felt to just like watch gabby williams like sort of now we are you know 20 games this season like the first half of her season in the bay area yeah and like you kind of mentioned like she's from oh like she grew up in oakland spent her spring and summer i know she like went to high school in nevada but like spring and summer she was always in oakland she was she was playing au ball here and i think you could kind of just see to like non-bay area people like oh this this is so bay area right i feel like that's a phrase that we always use out here but like you kind of just watch her and just like the defensive tenacity um the way that she's like like you said that edge is like it's so evident especially in those these close games like when she played when they played atlanta i know they play atlanta like a million times now but i think it was a second time uh like last friday she just i she literally had three points for the first half of her season and she was like oh my god i'm gonna win this game three quarters everyone in the press box is like yeah this isn't gabby's night they're probably gonna lose um you know it's whatever and then she just kind of goes off and like 13 straight points to end you know the fourth quarter they end up winning she has that viral moment the fourth the gaze moment and it just felt like you could just feel in the arena like that she's kind of at home like she just she loves being here and she loves playing for this team and that's something that i think is so cool because she was a player even at her stature it was such a big signing for them but she was a player that was pushed into like a leadership role immediately like she was looked at as that you know her and veronica burton were like yeah you guys are the leaders of this team and for gabby i feel like you know if you look at the teams that she was playing on the past she either a wasn't kind of ready she was still too young to take that leap or like even last year in seattle like you had mecca there there was skylar diggins um as the mega war was there so like she was like she kind of hide in this background but see her kind of step into this leadership role um i think that's like one of the bigger accomplishments for her this season just because it's it's kind of new to her and she's still adjusting to it like she's talked a lot about um how it's still very new that like when the shot clock's running down they're going gabby gabby like go ahead like that's still very very new to her but i think just the reception she's got from the bay area and she how much she's leaned into kind of like that that culture that swagger uh she even told me we were talking a couple weeks ago about like how she's been like during pride night i think the valkyries have sasha colby on and that was like facilitated by gabby like gabby went to management was like hey i got this friend uh she was on a drag show like maybe we could get her to perform at halftime and like they did it so like she she's really bought it i feel like she's kind of like the perfect example of what a valkyries player is just that like toughness that grit and just obviously like playing into like where she's from and and the bay area as a whole oh my god dude i actually had no idea that they like had sasha colby or even the valkyries had sasha colby or even the valkyries had sasha colby or even the they were friends that is so cool yeah yeah yeah it was awesome i mean like she she was so excited i remember like the the morning i talked to her she was like oh we got like i got sasha here she's she's gonna come in we're gonna have a great halftime show and then yeah it's end of night for for the gay like that's an actual chant now at chase center which i think is hilarious like for the gays yeah yeah for the gays it's just like they actually chant it uh they were doing it against new york and i uh i think natalie nikasi said hey like if it's if you know that's cool you know gabby said she couldn't lose on pride night so why don't we just make every night i mean every night is pride night in the back that's what i said i was like wow i mean it's pretty much is yeah that's that's awesome and but for anybody who doesn't know sasha colby is like honestly just like rules rupaul's drag race is just like one of the best drag performers ever um so that's just like that's just so cool um and yeah like truly like valhalla is like game mecca honestly it is i actually haven't been out there to a game yet but i really want to go it just feels like every night is truly like pride night times game seven like as a as like a queer sports fan like there's like it like i can't imagine a place where i can't imagine a place where like fills your cup more and i just feel like the valkyries have done such a good job of like their community engagement and actually being able to like tap into um you know like obviously the the bay area itself has just such a deep root rooted like activist culture deep rooted queer community um and a lot of wnba teams are frankly like run away from this this part of their fan base that they could be bringing in and i just love how much the valkyries have actually embraced the franchise in portland that i think is doing the same thing i think the liberty are doing a really good job of it minnesota toronto like you're definitely seeing more teams do a good job of it but like i really really feel like um the valkyries are at the forefront of that like they're at the edge of that like you have like the valkyries that you wrote about like my friend uh maya goldberg is like the first person that told me about them as well like there are they are like this like lgbtq plus fan group that is like at every single game like they've got like they're wearing like the like the crowns and like i don't even know what to call them like they're like game of thrones like thrones like warrior like crowns like they're leaning into the valhalla part of all of it they've got like the flags and like it's just it's it's what a lot of wnba arenas i think should feel like from like even from a just a purely consumerist standpoint right like we're kind of at this moment where the wnba is like kind of at a fork in the road and they've like it feels like they are trying to sort of appease every fan base without appeasing anybody at the same at the same time they're sort of just like listening to the loudest voices in the room as opposed to just realizing like most people like you know it's like kind of this like weird uneasy alliance like wnba fandom is basically like gambling addicts um queer people like bi-curious gen z-ers like fathers of daughters like it's all of these different groups that i do genuinely feel like pretty normal um and all like agree that the nastiest variants of like what goes on in the league like shouldn't be happening um and you can sort of like you can cater to all of them you don't have to erase any part of like who you are um like even like you see it with the world i'm rambling but you see with the world cup like none of like sports are not inextricable like sports are not extricable from culture at all right and they shouldn't be that's what makes them so vibrant and the valkyries have just done such a good job of embracing all of that yeah and then you know what funny is like i think a lot of w teams especially the ones that already have like an nba you know kind of partner or you know owned by an nba team i think there's a lot of like expectations that we'll just bring some of that nba crowd over to the w because it's basketball right and i'm and there are people who watch the valkyries who are also like warrior fans and like they just love hoops and so they're happy that hoops is here all year round but what i will say on that is like they've intentionally targeted like non-warriors fans because they feel like they could grow this into something even bigger than that and i think they've done a really good job like you said into kind of leaning into the the very the vast communities that are around the bay area right and like they i think the valkyries are good are a good example um like they the valkyries will will shout them out and and they'll be the first one you know like if you're uh they'll be the first ones to go sign autographs for for the people who are in that group and it's just i think it's really cool to see and um i had to give them a lot of props on like just the fan like the way that they've been able to interact with different groups of fans and like you kind of named all of them like they have feels like they have a night for all of it um but like you look into like a the chase center crowd it's it's pretty much like it's so diverse i mean you have so many people from so many different backgrounds for so many different uh just people who want to watch and i think what i think like a lot of people are out here in the bay area what they respect about the valkyries that they're they're very welcoming to it it's like it's a very blue collar crowd too like warriors tickets man they're not those things aren't cheap but you like you could get into a valkyries game and like enjoy yourself for a good decent price like i think that's that's big for a lot of people i think they've done a really good job of like inviting that type of crowd and it's only it's only helped them you know the crowd is insane i mean it's you go into ball hall and it's like it's just a different experience for sure oh i imagine it has to be somewhat of a welcome change for a lot of the fans too because i feel like a lot of a lot of fans and like the bay area is such an interesting place as a sports fan right like you have the warriors who move from oakland to the chase center and i think like there is there is a sense of like loss and betrayal from the fans there you have the a's that moved out and a lot of the fans have just been like priced out from being able to go to these games and you can feel that like like for chase center games for the warriors it's just not the same feeling but some of that feeling has actually been recreated like the the golden the golden uh yellow turns to purple yeah like those fans can actually afford to go out there for those games it feels you know like i've said this before like we had a columnist come out it was his first time and he was so like oh my god like i feel like i'm in a time machine because it does feel like that old like aurorical like dynasty years golden state warriors type of crowd it's still a very different crowd that actually goes but just the feeling in the building like everywhere you go it's just like oh my god like i feel like i'm in a time machine it's just like oh my god like i'm in a time machine it's just like oh my god like i'm in a time machine bucket is like they're screaming like this that's you know and every stop especially when they get a stop oh my god like i think courtney williams you know when this she came uh the other i think couple weeks ago when minnesota came to town and she had like a back and forth with valkyrie's fans she admitted like yo like this place is insane like there's no place like this in the w and um i think for opposing like i would not want to be this you know if the valkyrie's getting you know first round matchup against you know seventh or an eighth seed or sixth seed i would not want to be that team that has to go in their game one and try to try to steal a game and then have to try to you know win game two and close the series because that place man like they went it's funny they went to san jose they had a scheduling conflict last year and so they couldn't host a playoff game at chase center they moved it to san jose and i think a lot of people are still a little skeptical like are the fans gonna travel like 45 miles south are they gonna it's gonna be the same it was the same exact feeling probably even more more so i mean they are one of the more unique fan places and i think that that's been intentional from the franchise and intentional from the organization to build that yeah it's cool i mean it even like speaks to like it's it's like a version of the bay area that's even been lost to to like tech and all of that as well it's it's really interesting to see i wonder i mean i actually wasn't gonna ask you about this um but it got me thinking like the mlb situation too right like the giants and like the the one of the players writing bible verses like on pride night and things like that and i think that's really cool like is there an opportunity to steal some fads there for the valkyries i think you know what and so i think they kind of already have i mean the the response it was it's you know the the giants had their pride night thing like i think a week before the valkyries did and so like they had that they were dealing with that fiasco for like you know a week and then i think the giants the they are present in the basketball ops he came on and like talked to the media and like wouldn't he would not address the situation i think that rubbed a lot of fans the wrong way and so that happened literally a day before uh the valkyries had their pride night and we asked natalie like about it and she was so like her answer couldn't have been more different and she was just like no we're we are welcoming we we appreciate this this group who has supported us since our inception and i think there was a lot of fans from who watch baseball watch the giants and this is just kind of me anecdotally speaking from like my twitter mentions but it did feel like hey like look i the people that i root for the the baseball team i root for obviously is not welcoming of this community that i'm a part of yeah i'm just gonna go down the street and watch basketball because this is a community that actually embraced not only welcomes but embraces the lgbtq plus community and uh i i think there is definitely a shift and it a little bit has to do with like the giants are terrible uh but i do think like the the valkyries have certainly swayed fans who are you know got a lot their tent of fans has gotten larger just by being open and saying hey no we we are uh for this community we represent san francisco in this way and i think it's funny like gabby williams was spotted like at a gay bar after one of the wins and like they're out in that that's like just shows like they're out in the community and they they really do appreciate it so uh yeah i think they've definitely swayed some some giants fans to come over wear purple for sure that's that's funny um all right let's talk about the defense for real um so gabby williams let's start with gabby williams i feel like she's the head of the snake here right like she's a defensive play generator um she opponent score 73 points for 100 possessions when she is guarding them as a primary defender that is the best figure on the valkyries it's also top five for a primary defender with more than uh six possession defended per game um she's generally guarding the best player on the other team she's also switching um and she's like she's a very friendly type of player she can trap um she can do so many different things like i feel like it's unlocked the defense for them like it kind of starts with her but where does it where does it what what do you think is like her biggest impact been and like where does it kind of like trickle down yeah i think with with the valkyries defensively um they're they're just a group like there's no one like there are some athletic players like gabby right there's i think kyla charles veronica bird they kind of fall in that bucket but what makes them so good is like they're just always in the right spot like there's nothing special i don't think there's anything really spent they don't really do a lot of zone i don't think they've gone to a zone honestly in a game this year um they'll trap a little bit they'll they'll kind of like ice some screens but for the most part they play straight up and with gabby i think her biggest impact has just kind of been doing like the little things like what she what i think she does really well is when they do get in a situation where they're in a disadvantage right like someone drives the rim and now it's it's four on it's it's four on three um gabby has to now guard you know one the corner and try to you know fill the dunker spot and make sure that there's no easy pass there she's so good at kind of like just moving to spots and knowing where the ball is going to be and letting her teammates recover i think that's her biggest like skill it's it's something that you can't really like quantify but it's just like you kind of got to see it i for her i think that's the biggest thing and then they made a switch early on in the season they made a switch early on in the season i think there's when they were still trying to figure out like how do we use this type of defender in our system because such so much of last year was such team defense it was so much like coming at you at waves but now they have like an actual defender who can pick up somebody 94 feet who can uh you know contest shots at the rim uh stick on you know really good shooters so they opened the year and i i remember vividly like they would only close with gabby on like the best ball handler the best scorer you know the best player on the team and they got burned a little bit on i know caitlin the first time they played her it was kind of already too late by the time gabby took her on the assignment the second half uh but now like they kind of made the switch like all right we're just gonna shut you we're gonna put gabby on the best player to open the game and yeah good luck trying to get a rhythm in the third quarter when you are already over eight you know over eight or one for ten um and so like she she just very good at uh sticking on defenders i'm using her length and like she she's the way she's like a a track star i think she was in high school like she she went to olympic qualifiers uh to to run track and so you could definitely see that on the floor like she turns defense and offense pretty well but yeah like her quick hands um she's she's good contesting shots at the rim and you you kind of see it like when the numbers you just showed it's like these these offensive players have a really hard time scoring on her and i think she you know she's definitely the mix for me for defensive player of the year i think she's probably the best perimeter uh defender with that we have in the league and uh yeah it's definitely helped the team that was already good uh playing defense but like have someone like that i mean it changes the game yeah and there's just no drop off either right like if you're if you are a guard like you were kind of in hell because if gabby williams is your primary defender like what are you going to try to do like to to run a pick and roll then you are going to be if they switch you're stuck on kia stokes who nikai is duncan is famously called the permanent defensive player of the year um the other guards are veronica burton who is also an absolute dog defensively tiffany hayes coming off the bench caitlin chen coming off the bench kyla charles like they just can run the gamut like they have so many different types of defensive personnel that they can throw at you like there's just no weaknesses i feel like that's a big part of what they do too right like modern like in the modern wnba a lot of it is about mismatch and advantage hunting and i was really struck by how they defended the new york liberty because i think they are the type of team that tries to find advantages and generally speaking against most defenses that's kind of a good idea almost every defense in the league has some sort of weak link right um but against the liberty like one of the things i noticed you know like we talked about sabrina's number numbers earlier uh but they started with chechi on her and i thought that was really interesting it was like oh you're just gonna like neutralize the idea of like even using any screening actions because chechi's kind of the one that you would want to switch on to but you don't actually like that's still not really an advantage because chechi is quick and she's strong and she's like a vet she plays really hard defense like it's almost like you're you're starting off basically saying we will we will start from the position of goading you into the action that we already think that you want to get into in order to stop you from running your offense and i think it worked kind of like it worked kind of beautifully and that's where i just have to give natalie nikasi so much credit i feel like i would love to be a fly in the wall for their film room sessions the way that they do their scout because they also just have so much variability and malleability and what they want to do right like i think about the olivia miles defense like that's another one where it's like they took it personally olivia miles the first time they played them um had eight threes go down after they went under all night right so the next game they adjust and they trap her and they trap her like nobody's ever been able to trap her before because they're using veronica burton gabby williams and kia stokes and what was so interesting to me about that game was that they was for most of the game like olivia really struggled against that but olivia is really smart and she was starting to figure it out and there was a play in the third quarter of the game i believe where olivia split the double team um or she split the trap and then she dribbled into the middle of the court and she found kayla mcbride for three natalie nikasi immediately called a timeout she immediately called a timeout and she was like okay we are now we are now putting kayla thornton on olivia miles you're four i'm putting we're putting our four on our one and we're going to switch everything we're immediately giving her a good look the second she got a little bit comfortable we're switching that and i just don't think a lot of coaches have that like in-game awareness and willingness to immediately switch the game plan on you and i just think that like it makes me wonder so much about her prep and like all the different things that she's telling like the players like okay we might do this we might do this and like not a lot of the coaches are doing that on a nightly basis where they're actually switching their coverages like that it's really cool to watch it's insane like her prep like she's she's kind of known out the beat writers kind of know like her she's so crazy about watching film i mean it's insane like it's all she watches it's she's prepping if you you know if your coach is prepping 21 hours at a day i can almost assume it's not as much as natalie nikasi i mean it's just like she she she knows and her coaching staff is elite like it's not just her like landon tatum uh who's one of the assistants is a is a insane defensive guru kasib powell is is her lead assistant and she's amazing at like just figuring out ways to uh shut off which what the other team wants to do so like her in-game adjust her adjustments in game like it's she sees something she goes to her coaching staff and then they kind of talk about it okay this is what we're gonna do like they kind of always want to stay one step ahead and like that's one thing i will give her a lot of credit for is like they're just they're just prepared for every action you're gonna run um even in games they lost like i think of like when they lost to las vegas these last two times it was pretty much blowouts um but everything was so hard for vegas like it just they had to have asia hit a ton of like mid-range jumpers they had to have jack young like hit a couple like two or two to three you know big time threes with hands in her face like everything is so tough when you had to play the valkyries and now if you're good at you know tough shot begging like the links and the aces are you'll be fine but you'll see you see like even a team like new york when they were kind of put into a situation where okay like we need to get open at some point like these looks are not gonna these tough looks are not gonna fall um that plays right into golden state's hands so natalie has been she her i think her calling card has been on the defensive end it's been you know it's probably one of the reasons why i've always called her like the star of the team because just the way that she can adjust and kind of put people in positions to be great i think is it's spectacular just to watch and uh yeah i think just because of the way that she's been playing for the last couple of years i think that she's been playing for the last couple of years um you know i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's been playing for the last couple of years um i think she's really taking a step back and just become like a defensive base and she's okay with that like that's that's really hard for a player of her stature who you know was undrafted and had to really play into like a really solid role last year and then gets hurt and now they're asking her hey you're gonna probably be our five when kia stokes is going out um players like that just they just they help the system so much and uh yeah it is it is hard when even when you get past veronica burden gabby williams kyla charles and you're going to the rim it's kind of hard to to go there and finish over a player like kia stokes or even a latisa me here who was playing uh pretty well as of late it's just a it's a really solid defensive group you you yeah absolutely but hey you say that natalie lacoste is kind of the star of the team right yeah and um you know the thing that stands out to me about the valkyries right now they're the number three seed four straight wins the only teams that are ahead of them are as you mentioned the aces and the links and those are two teams where i look like like okay great coaching is now combined with star players right yeah um and it makes me wonder like what is the next iteration of the valkyries like and how far can they go with uh with the version of themselves that they are right now like are they do they top out as a number three seed here um gabby williams is obviously growing as a closer is that enough do they need to i have i've personally been an advocate for like let's get janelle salon a little bit more involved in our late game offense uh because she she stands out to me as a type of player who can like really raise their ceiling but we also do have the trade deadline coming in about a month this is a franchise that has said we want to win a title in the first five years and i do like i actually really appreciate like the the the patience that they've had thus far because to your point like they are only signing like very specific types of players but just from like being around the franchise like do you what is your sense of what they're going to do here like do you think that they will kind of continue with this sort of strengthened numbers unselfish approach and like you know let continue to let defense be their calling card and see how far it can take them for one more year and i've kind of like had them tabbed as a team where like i i would be surprised if they didn't win one playoff series i'd be surprised if they won more i still kind of feel the same way about them although my my sensor ceiling has gone up just a little bit in the last little while so do you feel like they keep developing and seeing what they have with who they have right now or could you see them potentially trying to make a deal to deadline to to raise their ceiling yeah i think like me personally i think they should make a deal i think it's pretty like early on the year i was like man they probably should get a five uh just another body i think we're past that point i think they they know how to play small and like that's that's fine now but i still think they still need like just a bucket getter like in these loss even in their win like i remember they played seattle not too long ago and they only scored like one bucket in the fourth quarter and they somehow held on to win seattle like almost came back from like a 15 point deficit um i still think they need somebody who when the shot clock runs down they could just throw them the ball and go all right everyone get out like we we need someone who could just go grab us a bucket here um that's not like though you know those players don't really grow on trees but if they do feel like their window is this year if they feel like this this is there's enough bones there's enough backbone here to play so i think they like really make a push i think they would they they'd be you know they should probably get someone uh of that caliber who could be uh like a late game closer but for my vantage point from talking to people within the organization like i just think that they love what they have like they just absolutely love like these players and how they've grown i think they even probably think there's another level to this um you know i think they've seen the growth from gabby this season like she's early on she was one thing and now she's like you know another she's an all-star starter so i do think they do they do believe that um what they have right now could get them pretty far i mean they they wouldn't be like totally wrong on that i mean the two losses to minnesota were like really close i thought the second time when they played them at home if they just don't mess up the end of the second quarter they probably escape with a win there um but again like in the playoffs i think it's so different and i think it's so different and i think it's so different and when you are in a matchup you know whether that's atlanta new york if they stay at three and they get like and they draw indiana or so one of these just juggernaut offensive teams it's a different ball game and as you know it's like you know teams have more time to scheme and and get you know get to their spots and On top of that, like, big-time stars make big-time plays. And in the W, like, we haven't really seen a team like the Valkyries really win a title. It's rare even in the NBA. Like, these type of teams usually are very good in the regular season, and then somewhere along the line, they just don't have enough to, like, push them over the top. So, you know, I think it'll be really interesting. I don't believe they'll make a move, but it'll be interesting where they feel like they're at because it does feel like, you know, they are, like, one more piece away from actually, like, contending for a title. I think they've shown that, you know, they could probably even go as high as two. It's just they're, like, not that far off from Vegas and Minnesota. No, just a game and a half back, right? Yeah, a game and a half. Like, they're a couple, you know, a bad, you know, a couple losses from those teams from being, like, up one seed. So, like, yeah, the regular season, and their schedule's really easy the rest of the way. They basically played everybody that's good through the first half of the season. So it's not inconceivable that they get a top-two seed. But I think it'll be more interesting to see if, one, this defense holds up in the playoff series and how this offense will run because even in these games that they're winning, they're not scoring, like, that much. They're not hitting that 80-point mark that often. And I think for a good offense, that's kind of a barometer you have to hit. But so far, it's worked. So, yeah, I think they should make a move, but I think my feeling is they'll probably stand pat and they'll just keep going with what they have. I would feel fine about them not making a move. Like, I just look at free agency this coming year, right? And a lot of the players that would be potential trade targets for you are also the ones that are going to be available in free agency. You've brought Gabby Williams into the building and you've shown that you can help her become a, go from, like, an all-star to an all-star starter. You've shown what you can do with lesser talent as well. So at this point, like, I do wonder if one of the big superstars decides that they want to take a chance on the Valkyries now. Like, Nafisa Collier now has Olivia Miles. So maybe she's rethinking whether or not she wants to go somewhere else. But I just think about some of the players that they could go after. Like, Jackie Young is somebody who is going to be a free agent this offseason. You probably can't get her in the trade market because the Aces are going to go for another title. And she only signed a one-year deal. We just watched, you know, kind of what she's capable of doing without Asia Wilson. Like, she can really run an offense for you. And if she wants to take that next step in her career, I can't think of a better pairing than going back to, you know, to play for Natalie Nakasi, who was your assistant coach back when she was with the Aces as well. Kelsey Plum, similar thing, right? Like, the Sparks are the 10th seed right now. Kelsey Plum has an overuse injury. She's probably not going to come back until after the All-Star break. Another player you'd have to give up assets for, but she is already a free agent. Nneka Ogumike is going to be a free agent. Kelsey Mitchell is going to be a free agent. Like, I would totally understand why they would stand pat and not want to give up any of the current players that they have and actually just come back next year and have, like, one of the DLs. It's one of the deepest teams ever because their cap table is insane as well. Like, because they've taken players from overseas, like, they were able to sign Janelle Salon to a really cap-friendly deal. They were able to sign Ileana Rupert, who's actually not even going to play this season, to a really cap-friendly deal as well. So we'll see what she does next season, too. So, like, they're in a good position, like, literally no matter what they decide to do, which is kind of a beautiful place to be as a franchise. The other thing I wanted to ask you about is, so, they obviously have a very specific sense of who they want to have on their team. And, you know, I think that's fine. Like, I think that they have a vision, and it's obviously playing out pretty well right now, so you can't, you know, you can't criticize them so much. That said, true serum, do you think they're kicking themselves over the Flagey Johnson thing right now? You know, it's tough to say, because, like, I think if Flagey was on this team, they would actually, like, that need for, like, a bucket getter kind of goes away. That's the player. Like, that's the player that you just throw it, you know, you throw it. You turn a pick and roll, and, like, you just see what happens. I think, you know, look, I think if they had to do the draft over again, I don't think they'd approach it like that. They might still trade the pick, right? They might still go, you know, Flagey's not really on our board. Like, maybe we just pick somebody else. But you look at kind of just, like, the way that they went about it, and going from 8 to 16, you know, they grabbed a 20-28 second-round pick, which, by that time, like, there's going to be another team in the league. Like, that pick can get, you know, pushed pretty far back. I mean, if it's basically an end-of-the-first-round pick, you know, I get it. But, like, it's not a great pick. It's nothing you can use right now, really. But, you know, like, I think they probably look at it, and, like, Flagey has just had, you know, obviously, Seattle is a great place for her to develop because she gets these shots. She can have moments, low moments, but she can have really high moments. If I think they had to do it again, I don't know if they pick Flagey still. Like, I just still think that, like, there's something about, like, high usage, you know, defender who's, you know, just kind of an okay defender who, I don't know. She's a really good defender. Yeah. Yeah, I think coming out of college, I thought she was a good defender. She's been better in the WNBA than she has been in college as a defender. Oh, yeah. Like, to me, like, it's just a perfect, like, I was on the record saying, like, I don't know what they're doing here because this is a, feels like a fit. She shot, like, 39% from three. Like, it did fit in that kind of mold of a Valque's player, but. And the culture fit, too. Everything we said about Gabby Williams applies to Flau'jae Johnson times a million. Like, this is somebody who could have been, you know, cutting up tracks with E40. She could have, like, done your intro music. Like, she could have actually, like, written, like, she could have written the music, you know? Like, she could be your halftime act. Like, she just. I mean, there were so many fans who were like, I'm about to buy this jersey. Like, this Flau'jae jersey, I'm buying it. And then she gets traded, like, 40 minutes later. But I think if they do it again, I don't know if they approach it that same way. Because, like, they get Marcus Suarez in a deal, and then they don't even use her. She's cut before training camp. So you essentially sent eight for, like, a second round pick in two years, which, you know, not great. But I think Flau'jae would have fit. It would definitely, you know, fill a need that they need right now, for sure. Yeah, I mean, that's. The other thing that's confusing to me about it is that, like, I just don't understand. Like, Marcus Suarez did not seem to me to be somebody that fits into all the things that I understand to be a Golden State Valkyries player. As well, like, she was a six-year player, didn't really move her feet that well on the defensive end. Like, is somebody who really struggled against high-level matchups. Like, and really only, I think. I think she had, like, an early-season game against Baylor that was doing a lot of work for her as far as her draft scout went. And, like, just did not really do that well in the later stages of the season where you're, like, playing in the tournament and against better competition. Like, so that was a part of it, also, that I just didn't really understand, to be honest. Yeah, it was very weird. It's, like, the one thing. It's, like, the one thing in all of the Valkyries decision-making that I just, I think I'm always going to wonder about that draft. And then, especially seeing Ohema's response after where I was like, I just don't, I just don't get this. Like, even if you don't think Flage is your play, you could have traded her for more than what you ended up getting for her. As well, you could have potentially just gone, you could have gone draft and stash with Nell and Gloma if you wanted to maintain the cap flexibility and potentially bring in a superstar that ended up not being able to being available at that time. I do think that that was definitely in play. But, like, there was just so many better ways to go about it than how they did. And it's just, like, it's the one sort of thing that cast doubt on this, on the Valkyries. Because everything else that they've done, I think they've done a really good job of. It says a lot about, I think, the way they think of young players. Like, right now, they have a player, Yusei Ochite is a player who was drafted fifth overall. Like, this is a highly, highly touted international player. Like, she has been, I'm not saying, like, she is this player, but, like, she has been, like, her arc has been very similar. Like, played, you know, grown women, and she was 13 years old. Got to a point, like, got to the EuroLeague, or, yeah, EuroLeague, and it's, like, was dominating. And she's just sitting, like, she has not played meaningful minutes in a while. But it says, and then I look at, like, the Flage trade, and I think it just says a lot of, like, what they think about young players. Like, I asked Ohem and I and straight up, like, at Media Day, like, are you guys just opposed to players of a certain age? Like, do you need, do you need a certain amount of experience in your eyes to play on this team? And she kind of smiled and was like, well, it's not necessarily experience. We look at, like, big games and are you in those moments? But to me, it was just, like, the way that they've been able to, like, what it says about their development is you have to come in as a young player and be willing to just sit here and learn. Like, be okay with not playing, sometimes playing. If you are going to play, like, there's a very certain skill set we're looking for. And when you. Flage was in a national title game. Yeah, that's. That's what it's confusing about. It's like, you would think, like, a player like Flage would fit that. But to them, I just think it's, like, you know, like, I don't know if they maybe believe this or not, but, like, I think there were some murmurs about, like, would Flage, like, buy into, like, this type of system? And I don't, like, something I don't. I don't know if anyone's asked Flage, but, you know, like, I could see them going, like, this is a star. This is obviously a star. We don't know how that's going to fit into this iteration of what we're doing. So, let's just kind of play it safe. But, like, on the flip side, you would think you'd want a young player to add to this group. I mean, just from even a cap standpoint, or just from, like, an asset standpoint, like you said, you could. I mean, if you didn't. If you weren't all in on Flage, there are people, I'm sure, suitors at the deadline who would jump on the chance to get a player who's 22, 23 years old that could play immediately and have, you know, that star potential. So, it is very interesting interesting. I just think that, uh, you know, they don't have many players that uh like young players i mean i even think of last year when they drafted you say she was drafted stash they have cheyenne sellers who was cut like two days into training camp and then the only player to make it was caitlin chen who was cut you know once before getting on the team so it is i think it just it says a lot of like where they feel like their young players are at and how they feel like they should fit into a system which to me is confusing but it's like hard to like really criticize them for it because they are winning uh but it does i think it does i you know it irks the fans a little bit how they do treat players like a you stay like the flage even a player like caitlin chen who basically sat last year and redshirted um it does kind of rub the fan base in a way that that's not really great and you could i could just kind of tell the feeling about it um i think some of that's just kind of you know jonathan comingo was was a big warriors guy and he didn't get a lot of run um i think some some fans see kind of similarities in like natalie and steve kerr in that way but um i do think there are certain like check marks that these young players have to make and i just don't you know i think if they don't see those they're just not going to play that's very interesting that's very interesting that actually is quite telling about the way that they approach things um i wonder do you think that informs on some level the slow playing of janelle salon who i think on a lot of other wnba teams would be a starter and would certainly be closing out and taking the final shot in a lot of situations that i think earlier in the season like chechi zandalasini kind of got a lot of those those opportunities um and they do kind of play in sort of a you know they they do play in a egalitarian style but i just see janelle salon as somebody who whatever you think about her game can get her shot off at any moment against any defender just because of her size her length her balance her ability to hold her space her um just like the the um i'm losing it just like the release point that she has right like that's just somebody that you look at and she's you know she's averaging 12 and a half points per game off the bench she's improved her defense i think there's an argument to be made that even with what kia stokes gives you defensively because of what she takes on the takes away on the offensive end that janelle should probably be getting those minutes over here getting those shots over chechi but is there is there a sense of also um to be fair to the valkyries of of uh of protecting players from like having to do too much at once and maybe slow playing them so that they can have like a like the confidence of a caitlyn chen trajectory or like what leticia and me here who i think also suffers from the fact that like she's not a great defender in the system that requires defense yeah no i think you hit it on the head like you know one thing i know about natalie is that she like it she's in no rush to to develop players like she she looks at this as like a long-term play and you kind of see that with even with like you said janelle um i do think like early on this season like she was scoring i i thought i had an argument that she should be starter um but i think she she's trying to mold her a little bit more on the defensive end and she she's gotten so much better on that on that part but now we're kind of in this part of the season where it's like all right like it's been working janelle coming off the bench let's just keep things where they're at um but yeah i think that's yeah i do think like she is very cognizant of like where a player is in their development um how they like again like very very specific way that she wants these players to play um and it starts on the defensive end the physicality the conditioning one thing she did say about you say yo chita is like you know she's not at the conditioning point nor at the defensive level that we really need to play at yet and i'm not going to throw her out there and have risk her getting hurt to the wolves yeah but yeah risk her getting hurt yeah i think that's a good point um i think we do see that a little bit with janelle um i think janelle got a lot of run last year and but mostly because like they just were so injured you know like janelle i think if if it was different and they had kind of the same depth they had this year i think janelle plays essentially the same way that they've they're using her now uh but yeah like last year janelle was able to kind of get some some big run and be a starter because they just did not have the the players to really play at that level yet and now going into this season um i think they've just gotten comfortable with her being a kind of a match-up hunter you know spot up shooter off the bench even though i do think her ceiling is much higher i think she could really be you know an all-star here in the next couple years but you know i think there was a there was a pullout uh before the season like the gms voted her as like the second best international player in the league yeah and i think what she's been able to show is like yeah by the way dominique like yeah right no it's like a lot of generational talent is ahead of her right yeah it's it's a lot of good players were in that poll and she was able to be second and like i think someone asked her about it and she's like oh that's cool um but yeah she's so nonchalant so nonchalant i asked i remember asking her about angel reese the angel reese matchup and she was like oh i don't i don't pay attention to any of that i don't care it's just like she's but she's very um she does fit that valkyrie's mold of just like kind of like this do-it-all player and she could score um i think if she adds you know a little bit more efficiency to her game and on top of that a little bit more you know defensive you know rebounding i think is a big thing with janelle that sometimes i think hinders her not out there all the time but if she could add like those are two very fixable things and i think once she adds that i think we're talking about a very good player who could who can make some all-star team like in the next you know two or three years yeah absolutely i agree and hey you know what if they want to slow play that i i completely understand that because i think like an interesting thing about the valkyries is that they're not going to be they came out and they said we want to win a title within the first five years of the franchise's existence and i think a lot of us looked at that as like oh they are going to go star chasing and i think what they realize it's actually going to be quite sustainable to build a title contending team in the wnba if we continue to just like hit on the like sort of marginal players who've been abandoned by a lot of different teams and develop them alongside like developing some of our high end talent and we don't actually have to rush anything and that honestly what that shows me is that they just have a lot of organizational buy-in like they are not really out here making some of the stupid decisions that we are seeing from frances is like like the los angeles sparks who i was just i was just at seattle shoot around and um wouldn't they love to have dominic malanga and awa fab who they could have had right or or like the chicago sky who i talked about at the top of the show so for the valkyries it's it's really like they're in a no-lose spot right now there's still so much that they could do with this team through the course of this season and if it doesn't work out then they're heading into a free agency where they're going to look like one of the top destinations um in a free agency that i frankly think is going to have more star power and more movement than 2025 did a lot of the players that stood pat in 2025 i think are going to be able to like really take meetings and like who wouldn't love to take a meeting at the sephora performance center and then like you know go right off into the sunset it it's going to be in the bay right like they are going to be able to like that's where i think the lake of it all will actually like really start to to fit in like when you start to get like into their ability to recruit um and really be able to like use that um brain trust that the warriors have had for so long i think this franchise is just in like a really good spot uh nathan thank you so much for for making the time i really appreciate it this was really fun to like just get to dive into the valkyries with you uh you can find nathan's work at the mercury news and listen to his podcast with marcus thompson and i'll see you in the next one bye at warriors plus minus is there anything else i missed is there anything you want to plug uh i'm also on a valkyries podcast called a valkyries valkyries courtside report it's the five kind of main beat writers of the valkyries and we we do a pod after every night after every game so you check us out on spotify we're on youtube uh shout out to all my my uh my co-hosts there uh but yeah i think you hit it on the head beautiful all right thank you nathan appreciate you thank you appreciate it this episode is brought to you by the home depot the home depot is everything you need to launch your home depot holiday season in style upgrade your yard with this year's hottest holiday decor including the show-stopping towering santa oh i like that one and his impressive reindeer both 8.5 feet and both designed with incredible detail that stands out day or night when you want decor that delivers impact the home depot has it make your home santa's favorite stop with the holiday decor you want all waiting for you at the home depot all right thank you to nathan thank you as always to stefan and anderson for producing and making this show beautiful um we appreciate y'all for 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