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[email protected]. The other day I was going through my desk and I found a journal right from when I graduated and it had pen and paper how much I spent each day. At this time, I think I was thinking of $40,000 in access cash flow was pretty tight so I had to watch every penny. I think about how far we've come with technology and advancements to help us with this stuff. We don't need a journal with pen and paper anymore. The answers are out there and Monarch is one of those answers. Monarch is literally it's like having a financial advisor in your pocket. So you can use AI to help see what you're spending. Monarch will help you have full visibility in your counts. It will help you see your trends. It will help you set goals map out big purchases. See if you're actually on track to where you wanted to be. You can ask Monarch's AI assistant anything about your finances. Like, hey, how much should I spend on travel last summer? Can I forward this vacation without touching my savings? You can spot things you wouldn't think about before. Like, oh, hey, has my spending gone up or just inflation? I was using pen and paper. Now you can use tools like a full financial advisor in your pocket and that's called Monarch. So what you want to do is you want to go to Monarch.com use code trading. The first year of Monarch Core is half off at just 50 bucks. That's 50% off your first year. Just go to Monarch.com with code trading. It became an FBI agent and it was the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator. Kidnappings, ransoms, lures. So you got a new job and the employer asked for your salary number first. What should you say? Seems like you have a range of mine. That's fire. I ask for what I want. If I ask for more than what I've wanted, there's deception involved. And I want you to know that when I ask for something, I actually mean. Yeah. This is Financial Tea. What's up, Sippers? Welcome back to Financial Tea. This is a podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture. And if I seem, you know, maybe a little on my toes today, it is because I am sitting next to our guest, the former FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss. Chris worked as an FBI hostage negotiator for 24 years before coming a CEO and a best-selling author. His book Never Split the Difference has sold over five million copies. I think that I bought at least a million of them because I give it to everyone I know. It's really an amazing book on negotiation and, you know, he then sort of pivoted his career to adapt these negotiating techniques for the business world. And so that's why I'm so excited to have you here because obviously, you know, getting rich is so much about asking for more. And so that's something you're really good at. And I can't wait for your advice. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me back. Just to walk it back, though, because I, you know, I'm Chris Voss nerd. I know your work very well, but for listeners who aren't familiar with, you know, your crazy life and all of the things that you've done, could you introduce yourself to us and sort of explain your career path and, you know, hopefully we get to hear some of your cool stories, too. All right. I'm a simple, uncomplicated guy that grew up in a small town in Iowa. It became an FBI agent and it was the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator, which is, for lack of a better term, kidnapped negotiations or by-side negotiations. And every negotiation is a buyer and as a seller. Domestic U.S. hostage negotiations are sell side. Hostages negotiated in New York City, FBI or otherwise, an ultimate cold calling salesman. Kidnappings, ransoms, lures, complicated legalistic ideas, but I did both by-side and sell side negotiations under the most extreme circumstance and came to realize that humans react the same under all circumstances no matter how much the pressure is. What is the most intense or high stakes negotiation you've ever been part of? Well, there've been lots of them. One that I was actually thinking about a lot this morning was hostage negotiation in Burnham, Subarral Case. 9/11 happened in the midst of that negotiation. Whoa. And so most of the FBI's wrapped up in responding and I'm in DC, sort of Pentagon got hit, got hit and thinking about the anniversary and everything that happened in that. And so I'm in a midst of a kidnapping of people getting a killed and a fellow pains. People have been getting killed and American are already been murdered once and there are a bunch of hostages. So that was 13 month painful. It's very selfish for me to say it was painful for me because no member of my family got killed. But it was tough. There was a lot going on and then suddenly there was tough getting resources supported. Got them. Fortunately, my whole time in the Bureau, working kidnappings, I was lucky enough to be supported all the way up to Chain of Command, like all the way up to the director. Full and complete support. They were very, they were mission-oriented. Which means you need, you need us to support you financially. You're going to get the resources you need to attack the case. And I was lucky the whole time to have complete support all the way up to Chain of Command. So that ended up, Martin Burnham was killed by Friendly Fire at the end of that case. His white creature was wounded but lived. Wow. That's a really intense. And it is very important, like right now, thinking about that anniversary to think about those times. I can't imagine being in the Bureau during that. You got all this experience in the real field doing these high intensity negotiations. And now you help people with business. And so what do you see when you talk to people who are trying to use your tips in the workplace? What causes them to mess up negotiations the most? You know, you kind of get caught up in your story. A quote I've repeated a thousand times these days. Robert Evans, famous Hollywood executive, did the Godfather love story, a bunch of other stuff. You should say there's three sides to every story. My side, your side and the truth. Yeah. And so to negotiate effectively, you got to negotiate through the other side story. And you got to genuinely continually show an appreciation for that. And if you haven't started on that from the very beginning, you can't pivot to it in the middle. You're caught up in your story. And especially under pressure, people get so caught up in their story. And so getting people to make the pivot, it's very uncomfortable from the beginning. Because the other side story contains bad stuff about you. Wow, that's so interesting. And then to proactively address it, if you've never done it, it's so uncomfortable. And I'm coaching a negotiation recently. Guy brings me at the very end, just as it's fallen apart. And because he's convincing, the whole time, selling a story, telling his side of the story, selling his version, focusing on his story. So I want him, I counsel him to do completely opposite and send a one line response in an email, which is to say to the other side, clearly, I've disappointed you. Because the last email he got was the other side saying goodbye. Well, that is a crazy chest move. But in point of fact, I assess the other side of being genuine from the beginning. So if they were genuine for the beginning, and they get to the point where they say goodbye, they aren't fact disappointed. Yeah, because they wanted it to work. They wanted it to work. Now, they may not blame you, but you've got to dig out at some level they do. Yeah, deep down inside.
failed negotiation the other side is always going to feel disappointed in you and the perfect response to that to dig it out, to recognize it, to show yourself as being fearless is to simply say clearly have disappointed you. Now that the next two moves are critical, you never think more than three moves in advance and a negotiation. Anything more than that is a waste of time. How do they respond to that? They're either going to correct you. No, which now if somebody corrects you, you're now back to being collaborative, nobody realizes that. But as soon as I get you to correct me, you're no longer saying goodbye, you're now collaborating mentoring me. We're out of the good by mode. So ideally I'm wrong and you're going to correct me. Now if I'm not wrong and you're deeply disappointed in me and I say that, the other positive reaction is, oh my God, that's so true, I'm almost embarrassed to admit that that's true, but you hit the bulls eye. Yeah. Now with that, you're. It's disarming. It's disarming. You've hit another neuro mechanism that's to your advantage. Yeah. One of your best known questions in a negotiation is how am I supposed to do that? So what has to happen before you use that? So it opens up the deal more instead of sounding combative because I think you could say that in sort of a bitchy way. I could be like, how am I supposed to do that? You know? You know? You know? You know? Yeah, exactly. There has to have been an attempt of collaboration to start with for that to be as effective as it can be. We struggle with that internally in a company because it's the first line in the book basically. The first lesson you learn, it's insanely effective. Like eight out of ten times, there's a 180 degree turn in a negotiation, even as your first response, the other side's offer. You know, your landscaper says, yeah, it's going to cost you 400 hours a month and you say, how am I supposed to do that? Your landscaper says, okay, I have 300 a month. Yeah. And so you get addicted to it and that's why so many people have picked it up. It's a little unfair, but two out of ten times, there's a complete backfire. So how am I supposed to do that is really about triggering collaboration. It's about triggering information. It's about, if you're genuinely saying to the other side, I'd love to do it, but what you've asked of me is impossible and I need you to see that. My son Brandon used to call it forced empathy, forcing the other side to look at your situation. And so forcing the other side to see you through an empathic lens is transformative for them and the situation eight out of ten times. Roughly. Now, two out of ten, it gets slammed right back in your face and people are shocked. They're like, I don't care what happens to you. I don't care if you lose your job. I don't care, you know, you can get fired, you know, I don't care what happens to you. You're going to make this deal. Well, that data is one of two things is happening on the other side. The other side is under intense pressure or they're victimizing you. So you're kind of part reacting negatively, is either under a lot of pressure or their predatory. You need to know which one it is. So if they start screaming at you at the moment, if they're really under pressure, the appropriate response is sounds like you're under a lot of pressure. Oh my gosh. So much of it is just saying the thing, naming what's happening instead of having your guard up so much. Right. Now, they'll react with relief instantly if they're under genuine pressure. Yeah. They'll appreciate that. You'll make the deal. If they, if they, if they shrug it off like, no, it's predatory. Now you know who you're dealing with and my person back to the corner trying to collaborate, I can make this deal predator is always going to be a predator. Do you want that partner? So I want to take a step back because part of your negotiations strategy is first perceiving the other side and understanding like where they're coming from. The two situations that I really want to talk to you about are negotiating salary and then also negotiating with the spouse about money. And so how are you supposed to do that due diligence to understand if it's even worth negotiating with this person because you know, I often get people the recommendation with a job, sometimes you got to walk away or with yesterday, I was talking to a woman who had a nine figure trust fund and she was negotiating a prenup and the guy that she was negotiating the prenup with wanted, you know, finders fees on any, on any investments that he brought her. He wanted her to pay for their lifestyle. He didn't want to share any of his earnings if they broke up, but he wanted to have her money. And it was to me in that moment, I was like, is this even someone worth negotiating with because it seems like he's not even worth the time, you know, he's already showing you his cards. So how can you do that diligence? Got instinct. Okay. Which is, you got to, does the other person want a long term trust or relationship with you? Are they willing to collaborate? What's your gut tell you? And you, you got versus your heart versus your head and romantic relationship. What do you wish? How should they be? What's your gut telling you? The problem is people are given a benefit of the doubt when their instinct is hitting the alarm bells because your heart's in the right place. You want to be given the benefit of the doubt, therefore you want to give the other person the benefit of the doubt. And while that's good to protect your heart, you know, the hope-based strategy, hope is the drug, hope is not a strategy, hope is hope-yum, hope-yum. So you got to be cautious is hope for the way things should be overruling the data you're getting back. Yeah. So romantic relationships, somebody that has put all those caveats in is not on your side. Exactly. And I would tell people, if your employer is not on your side, if your romantic partner is not on your side, move on. Yeah. It's hard, but the right person is waiting for you around the corner. The right job is waiting for you around the corner. And I remember I was approached a girl, female in my class at USC, you know, I've, I've, look, trying to get a raise from an employer who's renowned for paying women less. You know, how do I get a raise out of this guy? And I said, I'm going to talk to you like I was your dad, get another job. Yeah. Move on. I wouldn't want you to stay in a relationship with a man who treated you like that. Yeah. And the employer should be no different. So trigger back to the question, you know, how do I negotiate? How do your diligence before? You're gut instinct. You know, what's the reputation? What are you seeing? What are you seeing? And I had a female friend of mine tell me probably about four or five years ago that one employer was like, yeah, I love, I love hiring women because they work harder than men do. And you can pay them less. Oh my gosh. I thought. All right. You know, at least it's honest. Probably true. Yeah. Because women are struggling so hard in a workforce that they will probably knock themselves out more than men and probably take less money. And so if you're a total social path, that's probably not a bad strategy if you're a social path. Now you're going to go out of business eventually. You're going to get sued. And a social path is destined for demise. But in the short term, it might not be a bad strategy, I'm a long term guy. So I would never counsel that because you're going to go down to tubes with that sort of value. So if you're negotiating your salary, so you've got a new job and the employer asks for your salary number first, how much you want to be paid, what should you say? Seems like you have a range in mind. Ooh. That's fire. Yeah. Because they do. Okay. And you've got to know what the range is. Now there's a real issue. There's differences between how much is this job worth based on everything that goes with salary versus what's the salary number for the job market and how accurate is that. You've got to find out what's in the other side's head. They have a range. Their range may be constrained, either artificially or by real constraints. Let's say they can't pay you what the job market is worth. But the opportunity for growth exceeds everything else or the fringe benefits, the travel. Who are you going to see? What are you going to get exposed to? I love it.
So something that I deal with a lot as Mrs. Dow Jones is I speak to young people and they just feel really pessimistic about the current job market and they sort of feel like they should just take whatever they can get and are hesitant to negotiate because there's so much scarcity and opportunity. And so they sort of are just like, okay, whatever, I need a job, so I'm gonna take this one even though the terms are not what I would like. What advice would you get them? - I gotta tell you, the employees see the job market vastly differently than the employees' perspective are. I hear over and over again, there's a scarcity of jobs, there's a scarcity of jobs. I find it be a scarcity of championship players. - Ooh. - Like if it's be obsessed through a grand card down one of his lines, be obsessed with be mediocre. - If you're mediocre, yeah, you're having trouble finding a job. I'm not looking for mediocre people. - No. - I'm having trouble finding people who genuinely want to be obsessed, genuinely want to be a championship player. I don't care if you have no experience and no education. If you're obsessed and you want to be a championship player, if you have initiative, like I'm having trouble finding those people and I run across anybody that wants to learn grow and coach and take initiative, I'm hiring them. - So negotiation, I feel like often carry sort of a double standard, especially with men and women because tactics that make men look assertive on women can sometimes be labeled aggressive or difficult. And so how does tactical empathy level the playing field against that gender bias in the workplace? 'Cause I think for women, it holds us back a little that we're worried of being seen that way. And so we just try and be nice and not cause ruffle any feathers. - Well, we just decided, my head of coaching deck gone and I've always had nine skills, but what is a nine skill? And we just finally landed on tone. - Tone. - And that's what makes you look like a jerk or not. Not what you said, but how you said it. And if you can master tone, you'll be shocked that we can get away with. Shocked. Shocked. I could say, all right, so when I said that before, you thought I was lying. That's an attacking tone of voice. - Yes. - Or I could say, so when I said that before, I thought it was lying. That's gonna land. - Yeah. I always say to people, "Gurr, got's a girl." (laughs) - Well said. I love that. - Gurr gets a girl, if you reflect girl, oh, that's what you're gonna get in. - Yeah. - Yeah, so with your tonality, like the masters of negotiation, really start with grade tone. And curiosity. I'll give you another example. Jonathan Smith, our U.S. coach, is also a negotiation coach. And the three kind of yeses commitment, confirmation counterfeit. And if somebody gives Jonathan a counterfeit yes, he'll go like, "That's not like a counterfeit yes." Which is, you're a liar. (laughs) It lands every time. - Yeah. - They go like, "Ah, yeah, you got me." - Yeah. - You know, it's all tone. And the world sort of expects men to be jerks. And so, well, he's not a jerk. He's just aggressive. And, but a woman gets labeled with a different tone. And gets written off because of it. So nobody should have a bad tone. Women get punished more for bad negotiation than men do. Thousand percent agree. - Yes. - I don't coach bad negotiations, so that's not my problem. (laughs) I'm gonna coach you up to negotiate harder. - Yeah. - Than anybody else. - Yeah. You know, there's nothing wrong with being, being hard and nice at the same time. You know, an iron fist inside of velvet glove. You need that velvet glove. - Something I often tell people who are intimidated by negotiating. I say two things. First of all, and I want to know your feedback on it 'cause maybe I'm giving bad advice. - I like everything you've said so far. So I'm looking forward to it. - Okay, good. Well, maybe you'll like this. So, first of all, I say, so I'm an employer too. And I say that you should always negotiate as an employer. Like, as someone who's sitting on the other side of the table, you, it's a red flag if you don't. Which I think if you or someone who's anxious about negotiating a salary is a good thing to keep in mind that it's actually the right answer. Like, you have to negotiate it. That makes you look like a more valuable employee and it's something that is expected. - It makes you look like a great ambassador when you can stand up for yourself. - Yes. And you know how to play the game. So that's one thing I always say. And the other thing that I say to people who really don't want to negotiate and are like, you know, it's just not in their real house. The salary thing is, I say, every negotiation, just think about it. They are going to go back in four three times. - Yeah, that's a good rule of thought. - Like, like, like, go in high. They're going to come back, come in a little bit lower. They're going to come back and usually you can accept. I mean, obviously it's not always that clean, but it sort of is nice to have like a little framework because it takes the air out of it if you're someone who's got scared about negotiating. - Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's pretty close. I mean, and then also in your assessment from the very beginning. - Oh, yeah. - You've got to assess whether or not you've got those three moves. - Oh, okay. And-- - What are the three moves? - Well, you said back and forth three times. - Oh, yeah, yeah, three moves. Okay, sorry. I had to know if you would like to-- - You need to have some sort of an assessment early on. Have they outlined quite clearly the salary is not negotiable. And then how do you probe that? So you say, sounds like the salary is not negotiable. What you're doing is you're showing that you're listening and paying attention. - Yeah. - Now their reaction to that is going to tell you whether or not it is. If they come direct back, then it's not. - Yeah. - And so you did, you do diligence, you found out whether or not that was in a movable tone. Now, if they haven't hawn any way, shape or form, then there's room. Now, why am I saying this? When I was an adjunct professor at Georgetown and at USC, an adjunct anywhere, salary is not negotiable. - Yeah. - It is what it is. You need a little bit of a track record of the industry. As an adjunct professor at a university, your salary is not negotiable. So if you wanted to negotiate on something that quite clearly isn't, you're inviting them to withdraw. So you need to have gone, you got a probe a little bit upfront. And if it's not negotiable, there are other things, is the job worth it. - Yeah. - But getting back to your original point, 80% of the time it is. So you should, just based on sheer numbers, you should walk in prepared to negotiate the salary. - And what about if they give you a salary package where it's like, you know, equity and, you know, things like that, but not actually the cash that you need? - Yeah, well, that was in the details, isn't it? - Yeah, it is. Easily, how easily are those things pulled away from you? There are a lot of people that are playing games with those details. - I know, I see this all the time. - And so, I get consulting agreements with a lot of those details. Run it through CLAWG, you know, run it through your AI and see, especially complicated, I got a page consulting agreement sent my way the other day, because they're used to these a page agreements that have all these details that make the terms never are gonna be implemented. And so, they don't know any better. This is how it is in our world. This is when I'm gonna give you. And I said, no, I ran it through CLAWG, CLAWG pointed out all the inconsistencies and why none of this would ever happen. And I just show stopper, no, I'm done. So if they wanna give you, they don't wanna give you salary, but they wanna give you a complicated job proposal, the more complicated it is, the more likely it is so they don't pay. - I, 100% agree. - Which then means you don't wanna work there. - Yeah. - 'Cause these are people that deceive. - Yes. - And we didn't lie, but we, and we know why you got that impression. - Yeah. - There's a lot of that out there and a lot of people think it's okay. Fine, I just don't wanna have anything to do with those people. - Yeah, we had the former CEO of Goldman Sachs on the podcast Lloyd Blank Fine and something that stuck with me about how they compensate their employees is it's like if they win, all everyone wins, you know? Like it's everyone has a piece of the pie and it feels really fair, you know? Like it feels like no one's trying to deceive anyone. It's like we're all on a team together and we're all gonna get a piece of that of those winnings. - You mentioned AI and technology has obviously really changed the game and how can we use it to be better at negotiating? Like should we have it to our resumes? Should we practice with it as a bot? What are your AI hacks for negotiating? - You gotta train your AI to negotiate with real good negotiation. And then actually AI is not that great at negotiation. It's great at, it's great.
it assessing a legal document for issues. Most AI is written by people who are not good negotiators, you know, what's the program? Yeah. They weren't that good at negotiation and they think being the more loquacious you are, the better negotiator you are. Not true. Yeah. So we use AI in a lot of our assessment, but we re-educate it with our stuff. And you can train, you can train, we use Claude, we use perplexity, we're using multiple because they're all better at different things for different reasons. You got to train your AI, I just like you got to train any employee, but it's default negotiating stance is highly flawed. And so a lot of people are feeding their Claude my stuff. Not any bad, but it's only as good as it was when it was written. Yeah. The emphasis on genuine gratitude and a bunch of other things, we discovered new stuff constantly. What does that mean? You educate your Claude on something I wrote a year ago, it's already outmoded. Now it's better than the year before. You need live negotiation training to be up to speed in the moment. Now you're going to do better by using your Claude and your perplexity to help you negotiate. You will do better than unassisted. So it's a good idea to start. It will get you to be a B player. If you're a C player already, all right, so that's an improvement. If you're a D player, if you're an F player, if you're an F player, being a C player is pretty good. Yeah. You will never be an A player in negotiation based solely on your AI. Yeah. You'll be better. You'll never be the best. And how do you become the best? Because you say it's a skill. You really have to use it all the time. Like it's like, you know, being an athlete. Well, you've got to practice it. I mean, this is going to be completely self-centered. You're not going to be the best if you're not learning from me and my team. Yeah. We're obsessed with it. Like there's a lot of business practices that we're not great at a lot because we're so obsessed with negotiation. And our cutting, we were talking earlier, we were coming up with a series of certifications and skill, skill test things. Like we're evolving that as we go. Yeah. So you've got to be around people who want to get better at negotiation. And then you got to practice it. I take my salespeople to the grocery store to have them engage with the person, the cashier. Why? Because the cashier ain't trying to talk to you. Most negotiators are not trying to talk to you. They're trying to get to where they want to go. How do you get the person who's not trying to talk to you to open up and start telling you stuff about themselves that they haven't told anybody else? Cashiers and grocery stores are great. It's a great practice. Yeah. Spot. I go, come on, we're going to field trip. And I make, you know, we're going to go find some weird vegetables and nobody knows what it is. You're going to get directions. And then you're going to get the cashier in the checkout line. It's crowded to explain to you who they really are in less than three minutes. But you got one of my saying you got to practice. You got to be around people that love communication. Shack here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvano or 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you, your car is here, Mr. Shack. Thank you, Mr. Carvano guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shack. Hey, have you always been so big tall and handsome? Not always. I was six, ten once. Seven days to love and return it, Mr. Shack. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvano. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven day return policy at Carvano.com. Wired has always put a microscope on the people, power and forces shaping our world. Uncanny Valley brings that same fearless reporting straight to your feed. Is Doge finally over? Will AI actually democratize American health care? Each week, wired journalists from across the newsroom are going to unpack where politics, technology and Silicon Valley collide from conversations with tech leaders across Silicon Valley, internet fandom, investigations and government crackdowns on rigged gambling. We're taking you all over the news cycle, going straight inside the priorities, pressures and power plays driving today's biggest decisions. Uncanny Valley tackles the questions keeping you up at night and helps make sense of the future taking shape right now. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. So we're talking a little bit about your fiance Wendy and a lot of people watching are in relationships too. And one of the hardest things in relationships to talk about is money. And it's also the number one reason that people get divorced. And so how should we go about having those difficult money conversations with a partner or with family? A lot of people of aging parents they've never talked to about their finances and they really want to know it's going under the hood but they don't even know where to start it. So how do you approach interpersonal negotiations? Where a lot more than money is on the line. There's also your actual relationship. So it's two things. It's actually listening to your gut and then what do you say, wouldn't you get instinct is telling you? And remember by definition if we're flawed humans the longer you've been in a relationship the more likely you've wounded the other person you don't even know it. Yeah. So they're going to be mad at you for wounding them and they're also going to be mad at you for not knowing it. That's eminently predictable. So how do you deal with that upfront? You probably say something the effect of I don't know why but there's no question in my mind that I've hurt you. Makes me look like an ignorant jerk. I know that that's true and I'm not necessarily asking you to forgive me but I'm asking for some guidance. So it just goes with the territory of human beings. The longer we've been in a relationship a colleague, a spouse, a parent. We've heard them. We don't even know it. And they don't know it either. So the elephant in a room is how have I hurt you in a pack? Like I know I have. I just, you know, I'm an idiot. I don't know. I know I've disappointed you and I know that you're doubly disappointed because you know I don't know. We start talking about what's the nature of humanity. Now if you're getting into that your gut is telling you also telling you that they're going to react negatively. Like you know what they're thinking. You want to deny it. The two millimeter shift is instead of, I don't want you to think this. You say, I know you think this. Anything that you want to deny, walking into the conversation, your gut instinct has done a great job of picking up that it's there. So absent any other training, understand the two millimeter shift is going from denying to saying, I know. And it's a classic conversation. I don't want you to think that I'm being disrespectful. Well, you've got us picked up that they're going to perceive it as disrespect. Yeah. So the two millimeter shift is, I know that this is going to sound disrespectful. But so much of your advice is about sort of like naming the elephant in the room, like putting yourself in the position of the. Yeah. And putting yourself in the position of other person and saying it, which is very disarming. And then sort of makes them feel like, okay, we're on the same side. But when you're a negotiate like a prenup or something like that, it's hard to feel like you are on the same side because you feel really protective of your assets. Right. So how can you go about talking about like, like, if we were getting a prenup, me and you obviously getting married, sorry, Wendy, this is the thing. But, you know, if we were getting a prenup, how could I talk to you about, you know, asking for, first of all, asking for one and then asking for what I want without offending you? If I have to, I have a lot more money than you. Don't ambush him with a prenup to start with. Okay. Um, I think what a lot of what happens a lot of times in a relationship, like the person who needs a prenup is so horrified that they're going to wait till the last minute and then ambush the other person with it. And so you got to warn them it's coming and give them enough time to think about it. So then when the time comes, they can't claim they were ambushed. Now, how should you warn them? And so, you know, as, as we get into this, you know, my problem, because what's the other side's reaction? Always going to be, well, that's your problem. It's not my problem. It's your problem. Yeah. And so you start off with like, it's my problem. It's not your problem. It's my problem. I can't do this without this. Yeah. Ooh, that's so good, Chris. So that's what you say is so sort of obvious, but I wouldn't have thought of it. Like, it's not obvious, like, simple. And I'm just like, why aren't we all more honest in our communication? It's true. It's literally like, I really want
to do is but I can if we don't. Yeah, which is true. Yeah. Like you're not lying. No. And you know we love straight shooters. We love people who tell us the truth. Tell us the hard truth but tell us that an emotional intelligence way. Yeah. So the emotional intelligence here is the other person doesn't feel ambushed. So but then should you let it sit? Like should you let it marinate and then come back with the terms or same day you bring the terms to. You know you got I would read the situation personally. Like first conversation. We're just you know you're asking to marry you. We've never talked about it before. Yeah, let you know let the other person marinate on it for a while. It'll give them space. So should you say I can't do this if we don't do this I'm gonna give you space. I don't think that's a horrible thing to do. Yeah. You know you're getting caught off guard by this. You could say this is what you say you're getting caught off guard by this. Yeah. You're gonna need some time to think about this. It's gonna be a lot of reasons why you're gonna think it's unfair. So I'm not gonna pressure you to make a decision right now. I want you to know that this is what my position is. And then you're gonna have to bring it up again at some point in time but again give give people enough warning you know don't don't do this day before the wedding day of weekend month up. But people are constantly doing it. Oh 100%. I know someone who the day walking down the aisle was like basically signing the prayer. But by the way then can't be upheld in court because you can say that you signed under dress. And as it should not be 100%. I completely agree. So it but you're not doing anybody a favor to plant seeds for this cord on your side or on their side. And it's what's the right one's right time to like to plant the seed like it's you know in my head I was thinking okay you should ask them to dinner or like on a walk or something to talk about it but it sounds like a really short conversation. So it should be like you're both going to work and you say. Well a walk is at a bad time because walking is a great time to process information. Yeah I love walking. If I if I got a hard conversation I got to have with an employee like we go for a walk. Yeah. Because you process information better while walking. Yeah. So I would distinguish that from going to dinner or any other time you know going to dinner is often in disguise. I'm gonna put you in a public scenario where you're being held hostage and you can't get upset because we're in a restaurant. Yeah. Like somebody getting fired at a restaurant. So you know I wouldn't I wouldn't counsel breaking bread is to bond with people. So I wouldn't counsel doing that over a meal. I would you know early in the day when people have more gas in a tank that less likely to be overcome by the negativity of the day. Given somebody enough space to think about it now how you calculate that walk earlier in the day. Possibly have something positive already scheduled for later in the day. Yeah. Yeah. Put it in context so you want it to land in a way that the other person feels respected. And then what do you do next? Like and like at what point should you get a lawyer and like should that be something that you talk about with the person? Like you say okay I'm gonna give you time to let it marinate. What if they don't ever bring it up again? How do you bring it up? Well then I can bring it then I can bring it up again if you're the one who's seeking a prenup. Yeah so how do you bring it up again? I gotta talk about this I'm sorry. Yeah on another walk. Yeah. Now they know don't gonna walk with Chris. Now we got a grapple. Yeah. And then do you recommend going like figuring out the terms together and then getting a lawyer to make it happen? The sooner you can get some sort of legal advice for a deal that is that going to seem vindictive or punishing? I mean what's your intent to begin with? Now I wouldn't. Lawyers are horrible negotiators. I know. I mean they are. So whenever I talk to a lawyer I talk to them I want legal advice and I want it coming from this perspective. And as soon as they start counseling me well you know let's ask for these terms and be willing to settle for these. That's bad negotiation advice. If I ask for more than what I've wanted there's deception involved and I want you to know that when I ask for something I actually mean. Yeah. So I'm gonna I'm gonna look to be adjusted some too and a prenup like what do I think is fair and what is really legitimate might be two different things. Yeah. And you also always say in your book like a good negotiation both sides feel like they win but they also both sort of feel like they lose a little. I don't like the idea of people feeling they lost because that plants seeds. It's a downward spiral. Yeah. Well you both have to give a little something up. It's what I'm saying. You need to be able to collaborate. It's not necessarily giving. Okay. You know what's the best combination. Let's talk about what the best combination is here. And you know you got to it's the other side. How scared are they? Are you trying to trap them? Does this look like a rig game to the other side? And I think there's a bunch of prenups that are out there that probably are just written by a vindictive attorney. Yeah. So where's your attorney coming from? But make it a collaborative process. Okay. So say here's what I want. What do you want? Here are my issues. Here are my fears. Here are my fears. Here are my problems. And seek to be genuinely collaborative. And then you know it's it's a tough call. But you've got to show the other side respect every step of the way. You don't have to agree. Yeah. But you do have to show the other side respect. Okay. That's a really good advice. Okay. Chris, this has been an amazing episode. I really hope you come back because there's so much more that I want to ask you and time has flown. But you know just to end things I wanted to know is there something that you never get asked but have always wanted to get the chance to answer? I'm not sure if I never get asked this but I don't I don't think people are aware of it enough. Like the vast majority of us want to collaborate. And the vast majority of us want to feel understood. They want to be comprehended. You don't want me to agree with you. Deep down inside. You don't care really if I agree with you. But you want to be understood. Do not underestimate the value of making the other side feel understood. It will always accelerate your conversations. It will always strengthen your relationships. Always. You don't always have to make the deal but you can use the process to strengthen a relationship and don't underestimate the value of that. I love that. That's such a great place to close. Thank you so much for being here. Guys, if you have not read, never split the difference. We're listening to it on audio. It's such a great book on negotiation. It will change your life. Not just how you negotiate your salary, how you deal with people. And then if you want amazing coaching, black swan group has so many great courses. I think it's such a great investment in yourself. I always say invest in your human capital. I can't think of more better human capital to invest in than how to communicate about hard things because it's keeps us all held back that we can't have hard conversations and you give us the tools to do so. I agree. So I'm so grateful that you're here and please, guys, rate, subscribe review if you like the show. Follow on YouTube and see you next week. Stay rich.
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