38. How to navigate ADHD & AuDHD meltdowns and shutdowns: tips for you and your loved ones

Hi Vestys, we are back for season two after three months off. We're so excited and you can now watch you at HCBestys podcast episodes on YouTube. We've finally started filming them. We are uploading them every week. So head across now, look for us on YouTube or there's a link in the description of this podcast episode. And this podcast episode is brought to you by our brand new SnackHacker. Over 300 of you have already gone and downloaded it. It's created by Tara to help you with that feeling you get when you open the fridge and you've got no idea what to get and you're just overwhelmed. I have been using it and I'm absolutely obsessed with it. So go and check it out on futureadhd.com and onto the episode. I can be completely melting down in the moment but also be a really successful little ADHD. I have this point. I can like myself. I can be successful. I can have a successful relationship and successful friendships. Yeah. Even though right now I feel like I don't have any of those things because my brain's telling me those things I do. Hello and welcome to your ADHD Besties, the podcast people who forget to eat all day and then binge when they get home. Look, been there on that babe. We have. I am Tara Bruso, Dietitian and Diagnosed ADHD. And I'm Grace Kuma, Founder of Future ADHD, Diagnosed ADHD, and currently Self-Diagnosed ADHD. Yeah, Queen. Yeah. Yeah. She's like that in there. Yeah, I love that. What a surprise for me as well. How are you, Gracie Bades and what was the most ADHD thing that you did this week? I'm very proud of this. Of course, your answer should be. I had a very ADHD moment this week. Good. So one of my very good friends was moving away and we wanted to say goodbye to them and I said, okay, when are you leaving? What time and we worked out a time that I could be there to make sure that I gave them that last goodbye cuddle and I said, I'll be there at 9 a.m. What time did I wake up that morning? Ready to go to my friend. Thank God it wasn't 10 a.m. but I woke up at 9 on the dog. Love that for you. I have never left the house quick off. And I got there in time, so goodbye, but yes, that's not my usual way. I usually am a little bit more prepared for things like that. Yeah. You also, I think that it's very ADHD that you saw your really good friend one to one. Yes. Had a cocktail. Yes. Then you had a dinner with them. Yes. And then you couldn't let that be the end. No, no, no. So you're hard to say goodbye to them on the morning of. Yes. Because I hadn't seen them all together. Yes. In like two weeks. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm like, I don't know if that is an irrelevant thing, but I'm like, because we're like two minutes away. I'm like, oh, if you're leaving this morning and it's the final goodbye and you're moving into state, I'm just going to come give you a quick cuddle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the final final final. No, I find goodbyes really hard. Yeah. I don't like them. I don't like the idea of that being the final one. Yeah. Someones like, we'll see you one more time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're really stressed and it's not actually you could have just given them one more hug. I love that. Yeah. What about you, my babe? What was the most ADHD thing you did this week? I am currently in ADHD meltdown full disclosure. Just a little, she doesn't seem like it. But this morning was a different story. This gal can compartmentalize like a pro. I just maybe wear the meltdown comes from me. Maybe. I don't want to deal with that right now. I am currently shaking. That's how ADHD meltdown I am and I'm stimming. This is, we could also call this maybe like the aftershocks. Aftershocks? Yeah. Just had a little cry this morning. My brain just broke and I am going to talk about that a little bit later in the dilemma. Yes. But feeling like I want to share which you know what that's reminded me of. I'm sick of the word over share. I feel like neuroferming I think that neuro-typicals under share. Yes. And it's really hard to repress. It is repressed and it means that people walk around thinking they're a weirdo. Yeah. We need to just share share. Yeah. We're sharing. Yeah. Over sharing is the new sharing. Yeah. Exactly. And I'm going to share about this ADHD meltdown more in the dilemmas because we've got a dilemma that we want to relate to all of this today. Very on topic. Yes. Okay. Very intriguing. So let's just talk straight into Rex. We've got a lot to talk about on the app today. We do. And I am in a business like mood. Yeah. I have got my favorite wreck in a long time. Yeah. This wreck. A lot of people have heard about this already because she is just going viral. Yeah. At the moment I think she gained 100,000 followers in the last week. Wow. I think watching her Instagram. If you haven't seen it, go and give her a follow. The female physio. Co is the Instagram. So at female physio. Co. Yeah. The owner of the company I think is fantastic. She does a pelvic floor exercise basically daily or twice daily. Yeah. So that if you follow there, you have that coming up in your feed and she sort of goes stop. Stop scrolling. Stop scrolling. Yes. Engage pelvic floor. And celebrities have picked up on it and she's going viral and she's just fantastic because she just does this sort of 10 second. And if you've had a baby. And even if you haven't had a baby, it is really important to be looking after that pelvic floor. Yeah. And makes all the difference. Yeah. And yeah, I just absolutely love her and she's just got a nice chill vibe. She's very chill and very what I love about her too is that she changes up the pattern every day. So for us ADHD brains that need the novelty that needs. Otherwise it gets boring. If she did the same routine every day, it'd be like, okay, I'm just going to ignore this. Yeah. And she's engaging. Yeah. She is. And it's perfect for ADHD brains because we just don't want to have to do the executive functioning of thinking about reminding us of those pelvic floor exercises. Yeah. It's actually interesting. It doesn't give us demand of winners, but it hasn't given me demand of winners. I think it's that competition of like the competitive nature of like I've got to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She started. Yeah. And you also can see the benefits of it too. She's like, okay, yes, she's got real mum vibes though. Yeah. She's gentle, but firm. Yeah. So you know that you need, you know how there's some teachers and you're like, you're just born to be a teacher. Yes. You just can control these kids without yelling. It's just your presence that makes them feel calm. Graviton. And that you're in. Yes. Graviton. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Babe. Yes. That's a teacher voice. All right. So we're going to link it in the description as always. So you can go and find that Instagram account. What that you my rack is a great book. Yes. But I think it was actually recommended first by somebody in our Patreon. I love. We have a great little audio HD chat in there. So this book is actually about autism. And I have been reading it as a part of my self-diagnosis journey. And it's been really helpful. It's not about audio HD. It's about autism. But I've been saying to Tara the way I experience my audio HD. And this is different, I guess, for other people. But for me, it actually does feel like I have two types of brains. I have the ADHD brain and the autistic brain. And I kind of switch between the two. And that's only since being unmasked. So before I was masking and undiagnosed, it felt a bit more like they canceled each other out. But now that I know, I actually am fully embracing my autistic brain, it's much more distinct. Yes. So reading this book was really helpful, even though I'm not purely autistic. So it's called What I Mean When I Say I'm Autistic. And it's by Eddie Kotowicz. I don't know how you pronounce that surname Kotowicz. Yeah. And yeah, I highly recommend it. It's a, it's, she's a really great writer. It's not a long book. And the way that she explains the autistic brain is really different to any other way I've encountered it before. Beautiful. And it really cut through. And a lot of other people have found it helpful too. So highly recommend. Amazing. And do you know what is so cute and ADHD slash ADHD coded about our racks? Is that my wreck? I always forget about I tell Grace often earlier in the week. And then she remembers it for me. Yes. And writes down the. I'll note it down somewhere. She'll note it down for me. She'll show it to me as I'm about to do my wreck. And she will always grab if it's a physical recommendation, she'll go and grab it. So she'll have her little lipstick and she'll be holding it and reading off the lipstick. She's very prepared. Right now she's holding the book. So she's changing up off the floor. She was looking at it. She was looking through the pages while she was giving her wreck because she's so organized. To be fair, if we will, if so we've often recorded my place, which means that I can go and grab stuff from my house. I may be, I may be more intermittent to the organized if we were somewhere else. True. Though the autistic side of me would occasionally remember to bring it in with me. Yes. Yeah. So yeah, that's why I'm always the organized love. Yeah. Okay. Babe. I think it's time for us to dive into our dilemma for today. I do too. Let's get straight in. So I think before we get into it, we need to have this. Yes, I agree. Because we might go rogue. In fact, we will go rogue. Going rogue is kind of my favourite. But probably best to just just claim away. Yes. Okay. So how about this? Take everything we say with a neurodivergent grain of salt. Yes, an enormous grain of salt, like a salt lamp size kind of salt. Take that salt lamp, throw it through a window. That's how much you should pay attention to what we're saying. But don't actually throw it through a window though. Oh yeah. See, that's a really good example of why you shouldn't take out a case in point. But yeah, we're not professionals and enjoy. (upbeat music) So this dilemma is a nice short one, but the answer is quite complicated, so we're gonna get into it and spend a lot of time on it today. So it's from a guy called Nick. - Hi Nick. - And he says, "Hi Ty and Grace, love the pot. I have a question about meltdowns and shutdowns. I hear a lot about them on social media, and I'm just not sure about the difference between them. If you could explain it, that would be great. Thank you so much, Nick. - Short, sharp. - I love it. - Perfect. - I love a question that gets straight to the point, occasionally. I also love it when you guys like send us your whole life story, to be loved both. - Yes. - Okay, so how I thought we could tackle this one today is that Tara experiences more meltdowns than I do, and I experience more shutdowns than Tara does. And even though people who are neurodivergent can experience both, because it's just the two of us talking about it today, we thought we would just use our own life experience. So this is of course, again, it's not medical advice. It's, we've got all our disclaimers that we usually have, but this is just stuff that we've noticed in our own lives. And I'll just be speaking from my Audi HD perspective, and Tara will be speaking from the Audi HD perspective. So before we get into it, yes, a quick definition of meltdowns and shutdowns. So a meltdown is a more outward explosive reaction to stress or overwhelm, and it often involves yelling, crying, physical displays like very physical stimming or running or even aggression. And a shutdown is a more internalized response where someone withdraws from their environment, becoming quiet, zoning out almost like a blank face. They may go nonverbal. And both of those things usually have, both of those expressions, usually have the same kind of core motivations. So they're just different expressions of the same kind of emotional overwhelm. And every person's gonna have different triggers for what sets them towards a meltdown or a shutdown. And I think some people from what I've heard experience both, either meltdowns or shutdowns. And other people like me, I pretty much only ever experienced shutdowns. So in a really simple way, if you're confused about what they might mean, think of it as sort of like an explosion of emotion and overwhelm, except for meltdowns, it's an outward explosion. And for shutdowns, it's an implosion. So it's like your whole body shuts down. And meltdowns are different because often the person will get reaction support. Maybe they'll be helped to move to a quieter environment. People will offer empathy. With a shutdown, it's difficult because often people don't know that it's happening. It's very internal, as I said. And so sometimes it can mean, or often it can mean that the person experiencing a shutdown doesn't get the support they need. Maybe they get judged. Maybe they get told that they're like, what's wrong with you, why have you zoned out, why aren't you talking, you're being dramatic. And that's really difficult. And often shutdowns then get gaslit by people in our culture, but also you can self-gaslight yourself when you're experiencing a shutdown because you're just thinking, what's wrong with me? I'm going crazy. So in a way, like the way that Tyrona I've both experienced it, it really does feel like almost like a short circoning of the brain, because sensory things in your environment, emotional things in your environment, decisions, pressures, traumatic events, all of those things can build up to the point where you actually can't take it anymore. You're over your capacity and your only choice left. It's not even a choice. Your only action left is to either have a meltdown or a shutdown. So you're not in control of it. It happens most of the time without warning. And it can't really be reversed in the moment. It's just very similar to a panic attack in a lot of ways. But we call them meltdowns or shutdowns in the neurodivergent community. So let's start by talking about your ADHD meltdown this morning. Yes. And how that felt for you. And we'll pull it apart a bit by bit so that we can really show people what it might feel like in the moment. OK, Ty. Let's start off with how you're feeling right now, post meltdown. And then we'll get into what the meltdown felt like this morning. So firstly, we don't usually find it that hard to record. But today, we're both struggling a little bit because I'm so dysregulated. We're not struggling, but we have had to restart things and think about the way that we're speaking because we don't feel as centered as we usually do. We're usually in flow and trace can bounce off me, but I'm separate from you right now. Because I'm post meltdown, I feel quite wiped out and I feel quite anxious. But I feel like I'm almost at the surface of my brain and I can't get deeper, that makes sense. So I'm in my, all of my automatic functions are functioning, but the rest of my brain feels really cloudy and I feel really tired and I just feel like I can't go deeper right now in terms of my thinking. But I want to show you guys what it feels like so that you know if that's what you're experiencing or just to help you feel seen. Yeah. So yeah, right now I'm quite anxious, quite flighty, quite unfocused. I'm stimming a lot. So we're sitting here and I'm plucking my eyebrows and I need to be doing something in order to be able to have a conversation because I can't look grace directly in the eyes and things like that because it just feels exhausting to me. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned brain frog. And if people listening have experienced that too, that sort of numbness that you can feel after a meltdown, I often get them after panic attacks as well. That I think is protective. I think it's the brain giving you a rest because usually you have a shutdown or a meltdown because you need that hard stop because your brain has been over functioning and is at a threshold of like, I can't cope anymore. I'm frantic. It's all too much. I'm overwhelmed. And so I think it's almost like a warm blanket and muting your senses for a while so that you can restore. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Let's dive into what happened this morning. So I'll set the scene. So I woke up to three miss calls from you, which is very unusual. And I thought, you know, oh my God, what's wrong? What's wrong? Yeah. And then when I called you, you were crying on the phone. Yeah. Which again is very unusual. Like you were really, I could tell that you were in a meltdown straight away. Yeah. And it took a while to work out what was happening. But once I did, I was just listening to you and you were getting it all out about everything you were stressed about. Yes. So tell me what was going on. I hadn't been explaining to the people around me. I would have had full on, we've had a full on January, both of us. And I hadn't been, and we've got a full on sort of next month coming up because you're going away. And then it's full on because my three-year-old has just started school. Yeah. I'm-- there's too many different things going on. And one of the things that can really stress out an ADHD brain is not necessarily the-- it's not necessarily the intensity or the demand of things. It's when things fall into different categories. So if I've got a lot of stuff happening in a family arena, and then I've got a lot of stuff happening over here with admin, a lot of stuff, my little one study school, I find all of those things really difficult. I would rather a day where I just caught up with friends all day. Then the next day, I focused on just doing family stuff. And then the next day, I did just admin. And it's that chopping and changing that ADHD finds really hard. It's the transitions. And I've got a lot of things happening at the moment. So we've got some medical stuff going on with my little one. We've got my parents are thinking about moving to where I live. So those are in both different categories. We've got-- my little one has just started school. And my oldest is going back to school. So he's going to be transitioning into a new year. We've got work stuff that's a bit different to what we normally do. We've got all of these things happening. Then we've got the side things of catching up with friends and then our normal structures. But the normal structure has been gone because we haven't been in our normal routine. And so these things happened to have been happening alongside that. And for me to already find it really hard to keep things in my brain. But when I get to this point, I won't recognize it. And I will start agreeing to things and telling people yes to things without checking my calendar and things like that. Because checking of the calendar is hard when my executive functioning is low. So it actually compounds and it makes it way worse. So to make that a little bit more clear, I'll start to be-- my executive functioning will start to become reduced because I'm overwhelmed. Then when people ask me things, they say, can I do this? And I will go, yeah, that sounds good. Let's do that. But I'm overwhelmed. So I'm like, OK, I'm not going to check my calendar. I'll check my calendar later. I'll remember it. Yeah. And then I don't remember it. And then I feel like I'm letting people down, which is really overwhelming for me. And causes a huge amount of shame. Yeah. And so this morning it all came to a crescendo. Because I-- felt like I just had a, there were a whole different host of things that were all in different categories that I had to bring together and my brain just couldn't do it. I couldn't, I couldn't do all of these things. And also I really struggle when there's a step that, especially in administrative step, that I can't do, that will then plug my ability to deal with all the things down the line. Like it's a knock on effect or like a change reaction. Yes, it's like all of, it's like step two, three, four, five and six are fine, that easy. But step one is completely stuffing me up. And I can't do any of these, these are the steps because step one's too hard. And I mean, I've been so dysregulated that I can't go to my normal supports and tell them how I'm feeling because I can't get the words out because my executive functioning is so low. Yes. And this is all coincided with PMDD. So that's why it's all just come to a head. And one quick tip here is that Ty and I use a cycle tracking app where she, I'm linked to her. And so when she called me this morning, I'd actually just happened to check it last night and I checked where you are up to and I knew that you just had your massive hormone crash that you get about four days after ovulation. Yeah. Where it's just such a trend. Like that's a transition too. So neurodivision people find transitions higher, but it's really important to note that for people who menstruate, we have transitions, extreme transitions within our cycle every month. Yes. And around hormones, pregnancy, impairment, pores, menopause. And so we have little transitions within big transitions happening all the time. And that is, it's, I think what you're describing, Tara, I'm seeing an image of being on like a life raft in the ocean where everything just keeps moving and you can't pin anything down. It's like trying to organize like pieces of paper, like you say that all like note cards on a life raft in the ocean where there's wind and there's waves and nothing ever stays still. Yeah. So how are you meant to pin everything down? Yeah. But it's also an element, there's also an element there of when my executive functioning is really low. It's almost like I'm trying to see through water. Because the only way I can explain it. So I feel really like my, my thinking is really slow, slow down like when you're underwater, everything's like, and you're trying to, you can't hear people as well. And you can't, but instead of not hearing it's more processing. So I can't process what they're saying as well as I normally would. Yeah. Yeah. And then I also feel that the normal things that dysregulate me are so much more dysregulating. So I noticed that smells are really awful to me at the moment. And they dysregulate me way more and can pull me more into that dysregulation. So it's a little bit of a vicious cycle. Smell and sounds and those sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. Another factor I think that that plays into what you're talking about with people asking you to do things and your schedule is changing like an important point to note is that your littlest is moving from day care, which is a certain number of days per week that's like nine to five. Yeah. And he's been up for two years. Yeah. To, um, Kindie, where it's half days transitioning. So your whole schedule has changed. Which is massive. Like if it was going into us a new schedule, it would be fine. But this is a temporary temporary transition schedule, which means it's more transition. Because eventually he'll be at school three days a week. Yes. And we're really simple. And if we went from like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday to Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, that would be totally fine for my brain. But the way our school does it is they do half day on the first week of school. Yeah. Then they do another half day the next week. Then they do two half days the following week. And then they do three half days. And then they go to three full day, one full day and two half days or something like that. And it's just and for children coming from full time care at home, that's, um, probably why they do it. But for for people who've relied on daycare to get X, like say 20 hours of work done a week, when their kids are used to going to daycare, it's a real shift. And as you said, it's temporary. So it's like not really worth gearing yourself up for. Yeah. So there's that as well. And then also often neurodivergence because of the genetic nature of neurodivergence in our parents often our ADHD. If we are, yeah, our parents are going to dysregulate our kids are our partners as well. If they are because, you know, we're trying to get our lives together. We're trying to stay organized. And then maybe your parents or your, you know, your friends or your ADHD as well or whatever, they'll suddenly spontaneously throw things on you. Yes, exactly. And so everyone's kind of ADHD or over each other. Yeah, which again sends you into more dysregulation. It does. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite complicated. Yeah. And then when I'm in this state, people think that what I need is help with organization. And I do need that, but I need that later later. And so if someone goes, don't worry, we'll get a diary and we'll organize everything for you right now. I'm like, okay, but this is going to be underwater. So I need people to sort of tell me it's okay and like take things off my plate a little bit. What like this morning, one of that happening is I was crying and I didn't I was just saying things to Grace. Yeah. Because she's a safe person for me. And my husband usually also is a safe person for me, but he is a real fixer, which a lot of men are and he will go, okay, right. Let's, oh, don't worry, I'll tell you this. And he ended up being amazing because I will call and sort this administrators administrative thing out and just mess this. But I needed Grace to tell her, I will often go to one of my best friends and just go, these are all the things that are happening. And then they will go, that's really hard. And that's what I need because I need, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I, because it's as the support person, it is helpful to know what is good to hear in that moment. And so especially when, you know, you're suddenly on the phone, I didn't know you were going to be that upset. So I had to like suddenly switch into what mode are we in. And no, I was fine. It's just that I switched into that. And one of the things I said to you was, I'm not going to try and fix this right now, but don't worry, we will fix this. This will be something that we will handle and I will help you. Yes. But right now, I just want you to get everything out that you're worried about. Just get it all out. And that was really helpful. And then you were also rsd. And rsd is probably one of the final layers that that often can prompt a meltdown. It's when it's that sort of hyper focus on yourself that what do you call it when you're really suddenly a self-conscious when you're aware of yourself. And so you've kind of been operating in this way. And then a few things happen where you're like, I suck. I can't believe I did it that way. I'm going to let that person down. They're going to think and then that extra level of shame can be what just pushes you too far. And so you were saying to me, I promised I'd do this thing for you yesterday. And now I think you're going to think I'm unreliable. And you're getting out all this rsd. And I said to you, and this is what I would have wanted to hear. I said, I know you and I know your character. It was so helpful when you said this. Yeah. Because it's like, I know that I'm looking at the big view of your life. And who you are as a person. And I'm not basing it on this one moment. Yeah. That's so helpful. And when you go into a meltdown, and when I go into a shutdown, often I feel like I hyper fixate on that one moment and that defines me. And then we expand that out in this dramatic way, which is that all in I think thinking that your adabergents really struggle with. Yeah. For it's like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened. I'm the worst human or this will never be fixed or it's never going to be okay. And then it's like, we make that about a whole lot. Yeah. Yeah. So it's helpful if you're a support person to remind that person, I know you well. I've seen you in lots of different things. And I know that you're a reliable person across the pattern of your life. Not about this one moment. That's so helpful. Yes. And that's what saved me this morning and made me be able to come out of that meltdown. Yeah. Yeah. So so like let's talk a little bit. So that was a crying meltdown. Is there any other ways that you think you experienced sort of externalizing meltdowns? Have you ever experienced them in any other way? Yeah. I think getting like really, I wouldn't say yelling, but more like louder and it's usually just a little bit more agitated and louder and those sorts of things. But it's not that'll usually be sort of I sort of say that my fuse is really short right now. And I'll say that to my family when I was younger, I didn't know how to express that. Yeah. Now it's usually shorter lived. This was more of a my brain actually just doesn't know what to do anymore. Yeah. And another part of what you're saying before is that the neurodivergent tendency to magnify things. So instead of it being okay, this is just a little thing that could have a knock on effect. It's sort of this is going to ruin my life. And that's what really sends me into that state of I'm not coping. Yeah. So it sounds like what's helpful for you is people not fixing it. People just letting you get it out and saying it's okay. This is a safe place. Let it all out. And I know you're not afraid of it. And also I know who you are and this is this does not define you. This is a meltdown. Yeah. And I also did explain to you in the moment, this is a meltdown. And this is probably what you're feeling of like you're just trapped in the center of everything is kind of encroached too far now. And you feel like you've got no flexibility anymore. Can't breathe. Yeah. You can't breathe. Yeah. And so not trying to fix it is so important because as Tara said, a meltdown is literally like a short circuit of the brain. And so you're not going to have that executive that prefrontal cortex analyzing prioritizing sorting through things that's not available. It's offline. So there's no point trying to fix it because it's just dead words in that moment. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just can't. Yeah. It's not that I can't use a calendar. It's that it's gone too far. And now it just feels too big. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that I also can't use a yeah. And that's a problem to solve when your executive functioning is back on the lens. And I think the final thing I want to mention about meltdowns is I learned this through having panic attacks which are another bodily manifestation of overwhelm, but they do. look different and you know panic attacks happen to a lot of neurotypicals too. Is that one thing a really helpful psychologist said to me and to my husband who's helped me through a lot of panic attacks is let them happen. When you're afraid of something happening and you try and pull it back in, it's like trying to hold in a poop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is not a good idea. No, no, no, no, yeah, I agree. So meltdowns and shutdowns are exactly the same. It's important once they surface, it's like trying to put the brakes on a train you can't and they actually need to come out so that you can clear and process and be able to move forward. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And to finish up and to give a visual representation of how I'm feeling, I just pulled all of my nails off. She's not my real nails, the fake nails that run top. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that helped you get through that conversation because that was intense. It was a really hard conversation. So the whole way through I was pulling and peeling these nails off. Yeah. Yeah. They're not like acrylic nails. They're like that all very, they're very good. I reckon you could have pulled acrylic nails off. I could have tried to trust the straight ones. I had to stem and I had to stem to be able to get through that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. So before we finish up, though, Tarte, do you want to just tell people why you wanted to talk about it, even though it's super fresh and even though you're quite dysregulated still? Why did you say to me, no, no, no, I actually do want to talk about it on the point today. I want people to understand what it feels like and to see that real side of how it is and not see it just intellectualized all the time because we do, we often, and that's why we wanted to start the podcast to begin with is A to have, you know, an ADHD podcast that explores all sides of ADHD and it was a bit more silly than the average one, but also because we really want to show it, show ADHD what it's really like and the inconsistency of it. So, you know, this episode, I might be laughing in one part because I'm really good at compartmentalizing, but also to show you guys that I am sitting here picking off my nails and it is really hard for me to get through. But if we don't do it, who's going to do it to show what it really is like because we have so much, and a lot of people will complain about ADHD online and how it's represented, you know, tick tock diagnosis and you know, you see this and that and this only shows a little side of it. And I think that the neurodivergent community sharing online as long as no one's trying to diagnose or anything when they're not qualified. I just think that that can only be a positive thing. But also, it often doesn't show the breadth because it's really hard to understand the breadth of ADHD and it's really hard to understand that it's really layered and complicated in the moment. So, it's not just, oh, we forget things. It's like, we forget things and then this happens and then this builds to this and we and we end up taking things on board more. When our stress is high, our impulse control is low. So, we're saying yes to things that we wouldn't normally say yes to and that's a really complicated thing. Whereas someone neurotypical might go, my stress is high, I'm going to say no, whereas the ADHD is struggling with their impulse control because they're exactly functioning down and all of those things. So, it can become so messy, so easily, but it doesn't, it creeps up on you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, showing that complexity is really the reason that I wanted to talk about it and hopefully help someone else feel seen. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also note that, you know, I think it's a sign that Tara feels safe and that we have thought a lot about how to support each other through these moments. We don't gaslight each other, we don't tell each other to go over it, we don't fix it. And I think that's a healthy sign that Tara then will be able to laugh a little quicker. It's not to say that she's over it, but little moments of joy and ease will break through quicker because of how we handle things in a meltdown. Yes. And final point, sorry. Yeah. It's kind of just a say. Keep going, babe. I just also want people to see that I can be completely melting down in the moment, but also be a really successful woman with ADHD. Love this point. Yes. I can like myself. I can be successful. Yeah. And there's no such thing as a perfect person, but when you have ADHD, you can feel living in a neurotypical world that if you've lost it at some point, then that month's over and you're done and you need to start again. I don't need to start again. No, I'm a perfectly functioning person in other areas of my life. Yeah. And I will get back on track by the end of this week. Yes. And something that to a neurotypical person might seem like something that happens only when that in the worst period of their life at rock bottom can happen to me in waves all throughout a month, all throughout a year. And I can still be successful and still move through it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also important to note that neurodivergence, this, you know, I think that when things happen in our environment, I'm a big believer that things evolve for a reason in our species, in our whole species. And so it's adaptive. And I think that neurodivergence need these circuit breakers, even though they seem disastrous in the moment or they seem like not a healthy behavior. It's a very healthy behavior. As long as it's within a safe environment, and it can be, you know, maladaptive if you repress it for a start. And also it can cause negative traumas when you're forced to deal with it alone or you're confused. And that's often what happens in childhood when children are melting down and they get judged for it. And that creates trauma around melting down. But if we can understand it from that more holistic perspective of the brain needs this right now. Yeah. So that it can process this emotion that's too big and then move through it. Yeah. It's actually quite an adaptive strategy. Totally. Yeah. And if you're a psychologist listening and you have anything to add since Taur and I are not professionals in this area, please write in because this is based on our reading and our research and our lived experience and us being parents of young children. And I've just done so much research in how to support my ADHD sum with meltdowns and everything I've come to has suggested that they are adaptive strategies when they are handled in the right way. Yes. For the brain. Alright, that was ADHD meltdown. Yeah. Let's talk about shutdowns. Yes. So first, don't tell me what would be the pipeline to audio HD shutdowns. So yeah, very similar to meltdowns. The motivations are usually similar depending on your context, but they're usually around decision making expectations and not being able to meet them. Sensory overwhelm, emotional overwhelm, living with other people, being around people a lot where I don't get to make decisions. So like loss of control, loss of autonomy, are big ones for me. And again, what you were talking about with transitions and when you have many, many big things happening at once, like for example, right now, we're renting a house and our house is getting sold. We are not getting kicked out, but we have to, aren't we only just found out last week that they want to put it on the market. So we now have to be having it clean every weekend for inspections, which is ADHD is worse nightmare. It is very difficult, yeah. And so even something like that, even even though we're not getting kicked out, and if we were, that would be even worse, if we were told we had to leave in two months or something. But even so, it's a transition. Now, our house is getting sold. We're getting a new landlord. Are they going to be happy for us to stay long term? Are we going to have to move out next year? So my brain is kind of going crazy. And that's just one example of what's going on for me right now. I have a lot of other stuff, big transitions, big decisions happening as well. And my kids are starting school as well. So again, just for the year. So yeah, I think that so I had a shutdown a couple of weeks ago. Yes. And interestingly, I used to have panic attacks a lot more, which are externalised. My sort of externalised version of that before I knew I was autistic. The panic attacks really started to abate after I started anti-anxiety medication. So I'm not sure if that's the only link, but definitely it has helped. Now I only have shutdowns. So I don't really express things out with, I can't, this is again something that I'm not sure whether it's autistic or not. If it's a common experience for ADHD is, but I can't really cry. I definitely can't cry the way that you did this morning, Tyra, where you just let it all out. It's very healthy to let those tears flow. And I often feel jealous of people who can do that. I was sobbing this morning. You were. Yeah. And I have probably only sobs like that. Maybe a handful of times in my entire life. I would say I cry maybe once a year. I've really struggled to process motion in that way. And who can you cry in front of anyone? Eric. Yeah. So only your husband. Yeah. And like I could probably cry. It's not that I would be afraid to cry in front of you. It's just that it just doesn't come. I don't have enough opportunities. Like my body just doesn't process that way. Yes. And also after a lifetime of worrying about how you're being perceived and over reading social cues, you are probably going to find it harder because crying is a big part of that. It's just about letting it all go. And not being in your conscious or in your cognitive brain. It's going into that emotional brain. And you find it much harder to lose control because losing control in the past has had negative social repercussions for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely remember moments where I had panic attacks or I cried as a child because I did. And the response from the people around me made me realize I can't do that anymore. That's it's It's dramatic or it's attention seeking or I'm not getting the support I need. I'm in barris. I feel exposed. Yes. I feel caught out and so I just stop doing it. Yes. I can't. Well neurodivergent children are often labeled as dramatic or too intense and people don't know what to do with them, especially for our generation and the generations before. These days we understand when children are having neurodivergent meltdowns or shutdowns, whereas when we were younger, we would probably have been more dramatic, more intense than the average child. One thing I noticed though is that I think when I was younger, I would be like, what is dramatic, but I'm on reflection. I think people thought that I was exaggerating how I was feeling, but that was genuinely how I was feeling. Yes. And it was more dramatic than how other children felt about something, but that's because I was processing. I was probably responding to a whole different. So it was different to what other children, how other children would display their emotions if they say hurt their leg, but I may be letting out a month's worth of dysregulation at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And another thing I want to say is that I do feel like there's a big opportunity in research to explore the way that neurodivergent people experience a motion. And I think it's only since we've seen more neurodivergent lead research happening, that we're starting to understand it, but so much of the research has been observable, which means they're just watching from the outside looking in and actually asking. And when neurodivergent people aren't given non-judgmental spaces to express things, they will mask. Of course. And so what I've noticed, observing my own kids and observing, like sort of putting my cell phone to the microscope, is that if we like an emotions two dogs, bit of a weird one, but stay with me, I believe that neurodivergent people actually have deeper emotions that are far more intense, which means that it may not be that our executive functioning, our motion regulation is patchy or weak. It partly could be that, but it could also be that we have the equivalent of like a doberman, straining behind the fence, like you know, when you're harder to control. Yeah, they're much louder, they're really climbing that fence, trying to get over it if that offences your emotional regulation, whereas neurodivergent people, from what I've observed, have. Shit, so emotions. Yeah, yes. They have more plustered dogs behind the fence. So then their fences aren't going to be weakened by that constant gloring at the fence, which maybe is what we can do. This is a theory. The science isn't there yet to really support my dog theory, guys, but see whether it resonates because I see it in my kids. I see it when I used to be a teacher, I'd see the children that had the much stronger dobermans behind their emotional fence, compared to children that had those quieter dogs. And then we think, oh, that child's so controlled and regulated and we praise that child. But really, if an ADHD child is showing their emotions. Yeah, slightly. Yeah. But they're trying to hold back a doberman. Yeah. That is more control. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you take it to the next example of imagining a doberman on a leash, you're going to be exhausted walking that dog totally, lunging in front of you, whereas the tiny little shit, too, that trots along so perfectly. That's a walk in the park, literally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So an ADHD is exhausted. Neurodivergent is exhausted by these emotions. That's one thing I really want to make clear to people that it's, we have deficiencies that they've discovered in the brain, but I don't think the science is there yet with really, definitely not there. Understanding that our emotions are not all emotions are created equal. Definitely. I think that that's a really interesting point. And again, we're not saying that this is scientific. We are. This is our little musing musings about lived experience. Yeah. I want to know now what does shut down actually feel like? So I felt like I was thinking through water. And then suddenly I just can't function. And I reached for my life raft, which is I just need to tell someone this. And it was my phone. And I could see my phone through the through the water and get there. And then I called you. So what's, what does yours feel like? Yeah. So it's, it's, I've likened it to feeling like I was in a, in a big room. And I usually have say it's a ballroom size room. I usually have, you know, 20 doors of the decisions I could make. And maybe neurotypical brains have fewer doors. I suspect neurodivergent brains give ourselves a lot more options. We over analyze. That's how our brains work. You need a big space in order to, to have that many doors. When I'm heading for a shutdown, it's almost like the walls start creeping in with every overwhelming situation, decision, conversation, someone's text, someone's call when you're arriving here. Are you going to fly in on this flight? Have you put your flights at whatever it is? And the room gets smaller and smaller until all of those doors are crammed in. And I'm in the center of a, of a tiny space. And it's like bumping into walls constantly. You can barely take a step. You obviously like getting claustrophobic. It's air left to breathe. But it's that feeling of physically bumping up against stuff. And that's what makes me freeze. And so that's how I feel inside. I also reach similar to you that underwater feeling. But it's like everything just goes white or blank. And proceeding that blank feeling, I usually feel anxious because I can feel the walls coming in. It's like, oh my god, what's happening to the walls? And so be vocalizing. I'll be saying, I'm worried. I'm stressed or I'm maybe I'm having a conversation with someone. Like the other day, it was happening where we were discussing things. And the conversation got to a point that was too much for me emotionally. I was just like, I can't process this anymore. Yeah. There's too much information, too many emotions. And because audio engineers have a different way of processing, it's called a slow processing speed. But it's, it's not to do with intelligence. It's to do with sorting through things, categorizing, connecting them and giving each thing their time in my brain. That's how I experience it. I need time to analyze things essentially. Yeah. So when all of that gets compressed and the room is small, it's like the lights go out. Yeah. And I just said it feels like white, but it also feels black. Yeah. Whatever you want to say. And the proceeding emotion is always shame. Yeah. Yeah. And what really sends me into that complete shutdown moment is I can't function. There's something wrong with me. I'm not a proper human. Yeah. I'm an absolute loser or I'm a complete idiot. You're a drain on people's time. I'm a burden. Yeah. And always what's wrong with me is the last thing I've broken. My brain is broken. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My brain is broken. And so that is usually like the trigger that switches off the lights and then I'm gone. And from the outside looking in, it looks like an animated grace. And then suddenly something happens and it's like my face goes flat. Yes. And my eyes go dull. Yeah. And I think it's really important from the outside looking in as well. Like Tide, do you want to just mention how it looks from the outside looking in just that flatness? So this happened the other day. And Grace was trying to explain something to me that has been an issue for her around recording for ages. Yeah. And she didn't know how to say it to me without offending me. And the thing was, can we talk about that on the podcast? Sure. That Grace feels like we needed more structure to the dilemmas because when I interrupt her, which is a really normal thing of ADHD, and initially, when we started, Grace didn't know that she was already HD. Yeah. So she was masking a lot and felt like she was being really needy or not ADHD enough if we just continuously interrupt each other. And I didn't even notice, but Grace loses flow when I interrupt her. My brain processes a lot more quickly and I let I don't process every single thing. I'm processing probably the one thing at hand. Yeah. And I do notice and I hated this while listening back to the podcast and hearing myself interrupt Grace. I hated it. But I'm not going, I'm trying not to hate it because it's a trait of ADHD and I can't help it. But what we can do to help it is create structure. But Grace didn't know how to tell me this without making me feel like I was less of that or to ADHD or too much. I didn't want to make you RSD. She didn't want to make me RSD, but she also didn't want to be needy and different. She wanted to be able to go with the food. I wanted to be easy going. And I think a really clear sign that you might be already HD is if you often feel like you're too uptight and you wish you were more chill. Yes. You always want to go with the flow, but you're not feeling like you. Yeah. I got one with the flow. So she looked at me just completely blank. You were like, "Can you just tell me what's going on?" And I'd reach the point where I was at that decision making of, "Do I just say what's on my mind or do I just continue to mask and continue to push it away, but then I went into a shutdown because I was a burden. I felt like I was going to offend you. My brain just couldn't cope anymore and I just went flat." Yes. And then you were RSD. Because you were like, "What's wrong?" Yeah. Like are you having like thoughts about like. And I was confused because you kept trying to talk in circles because you were saying, "I think we need to change up the way that we do the pod." And I think that we need to do such and such and such because you didn't want to face the fact that during the dilemmas, you needed to have a specific way of doing them. I'm more off the cuff. Yeah. And. I need time to prepare. She needs time to prepare. And I don't like to prepare because that's actually a second function. And you also do really well without preparing. Like your brain prefers to go into something spontaneously. And I share more of my emotional personal experience often more freely. Whereas you need time to process how much of yourself you want to be perceived with and which is fair. So Grace just started looking at me and almost like watching a robot malfunction like you you went like and you were blinking a lot and like your movements became more robotic and more and you just you just went like you opened and closed your eyes a few times and you're like I and then you just sat and stared at the couch so it was almost like a just like a complete like the robot has broken down. I don't want to make that robot association too much because I definitely don't want to play into that that stereotype that people who are autistic can be robotic. Yeah because this is a specific experience. Yes and I myself actually call it glitching. Glitching, yeah. And I do feel like it's a malfunction of my brain but as I said an adaptive one. Yes. Like we talked about before. Yeah. And the other difficult thing I think when contrasting the meltdown versus the shutdown is that meltdowns are communicative. It's external which means the emotion on the inside travels to the outside and in children particularly we sometimes see that with kicking punching biting yelling and crying and in school settings obviously that gets picked up as bad behavior and there's different ways of dealing with that but it's all communication. So even though it might be destructive communication crying is the best form because it really gets empathy whereas mine is all within me and I can't get it out so it's very confusing. So you can't just say inside tired or that you're just not feeling like chatting or whatever it doesn't necessarily feel like a cry for help. Yeah and it can seem like I'm really mad at someone but I won't talk about it it can seem like stone-walling. Yeah. Giving the cold shoulder. It can seem quite callous in some ways depending on the context. Yes. Another thing to mention is that I do reach a point depending on who's around me and how per saved I feel and I've only really got to this point when I'm with my husband alone because it's almost like a level of intimacy that I can't get to even with someone like you Tara at this point because meltdowns for me, sorry shutdowns for me happen maybe once a month because I know for other people it can happen far more frequently you know so then they've got more chances to have their friends witness it. Yeah. For me it's about once a month and roughly and I actually get to a point with some of my shutdowns where I'm nonverbal and that is actually in my experience it's like my tongue spells up and my throat closes up and I actually can't get the words out. I still be trying and it's like like an effort and then I get really embarrassed and I feel weird I feel like everyone thinks I'm weird and judging me and it creates more shame and one of the best things that's helped when that was happening was it happened about a month ago with my husband and I just started typing on my phone what I wanted to say and eat the flow east. I don't always have to talk things through and it's just like okay that's not that's not the avenue for right now your body is telling you words aren't going to make it work right now we're not ready to process in terms of verbal let's just type things on my phone and that helped me get out what I needed to without me my voice having to do the talking. Yes that was really really big for us to have that transition and change. And you semi you semi allowed me to be part of your shutdown experience the other day. Yeah and I think what helped you was I know that you find the social interactions scary and rejection scary and conflict and conflict and so I said to Grace and also the actual getting out of the words I could see that she was becoming nonverbal or less verbal and so I said to Grace for the next 10 minutes I want you to tell me what you want to say but say it as directly as you need to and you're not going to offend me so you can say I hate you if that's how you need to get it across which was not what I would never say that but you can say the worst things to me yeah just say it bluntly and then I will know that you are just trying to get all of the thoughts out yeah and then once we have that out then we can sort of work on that to get through it yeah and nothing you say is going to offend me yeah you can say you have just complete freedom to say whatever you need to say here yeah because I can tell you don't know how to to organize this into a conversation yeah and so Grace bent Grace when she said it she was like I just feel like we need to have more structure in the dilemmas where we have turns and we talk about it I think I said I need we need to do turn taking because I feel like when you interrupt my flow it's I can't get it back yeah I can't get back my flow and but then I love your flow so I don't want interrupt that and and I yeah I just want you to be out of be free to be who you are and I was like that's fine that's just let's just have turns yeah and I've interrupted you a little bit I'm so sorry no no no but that's this feels so I what I really like when we do dilemmas is you know one of us taking one dilemma the next one taking the other or interviewing each other because that's the structure yes and I realized that the rest of the podcast is really structured the wrecks like what's your wreck what's my wreck yeah in the array he said you were really back and forth with each other yes ping pong more than like a long thing and a long thing yes um and the intro like how was your week how was your week it's again to start stretching yeah yeah and so I feel like um I can definitely banter back and forth mm-hmm but yeah turn taking when we get into more of the deep stuff just helps me feel like I can collect my thoughts yes um and that's and then yeah it kind of works and the final thing I want to mention that I think I didn't need to get to that glitching stage with you because we've worked a lot on that radical acceptance and I think what I focused on was telling you what my autistic brain needed and and just expressing those needs which aren't emotional they're neutral mm-hmm it wasn't me saying hey Tara this characteristic that you have it's really annoying and I really wish you wouldn't do it it was in order for me to make a point this is how it's going to be best for me to do it on the podcast yeah and so really focusing on communicating and need mutually mm-hmm it I think for neurodivergence it can sometimes feel like we're afraid to communicate a need because often in our lives people do take offense mm-hmm but um yeah I think Tara and I have tried to work on a structure where we can just be honest yeah and say what's on our minds and I loved that you said just be direct because when you're in a shutdown or even in a meltdown the pressure to have to package things in a polite way is an executive function we don't have access to mm-hmm and so if we can't do it we'll just stop talking yes so just being allowed to say the words one of the time very directly without any filtering is and it will just typing the monophone is one of the only ways I found to get through that moment and move through it so yeah it made it shame free for me and that was really important thank you and remember that you're allowed to ask people for that same grace so you're allowed to say can I just have two minutes where I just talk and try and get my point across and you don't get offended by it because you know that these aren't my clear thoughts these my unclear thoughts and that I'm not able to package them in a way that's socially acceptable right now but I also really don't want to hurt your feelings so please just let me say what I need to say yes and then I will once it's out I will work through exactly how I need to say it because I'm not upset with you or I'm not whatever yeah yeah yeah okay big big episode today yeah we hope that you guys found that helpful want to remind you again that these are just Tara my experiences mm-hmm and shutdowns look different and meltdowns look different for everyone and particularly different in children than adults but really the antidote every time is a shame free safe space to let it just pass through and to reassure that person if you're a support person that you're not there to fix it you're just there to help them process it and you're never going to find it weird or scary it's just something that needs to happen so that they can move on and then yeah rest and recuperation afterwards is really important because it takes a toll on the mind and body just like a panic attack does just yeah just like any sort of shocking or you know traumatic event kind of leaves you feeling a bit shaky afterwards these sort of experiences are like that too and so like looking after yourself maybe can't sing some social events if that's what you need to do asking your partner for support asking your friends for support saying look I had that meltdown or shutdown because I couldn't say no to things like couldn't communicate I had too many texts coming in too many decisions I need your help just getting the most urgent things off my plate and then that's going to give me a bit of breathing room visualizing that that ballroom example I gave a lot of huge auditorium and sort of imagining trying to get back to that space where you feel like you're not as closeted you feel more space around you again and allowing yourself to to gather that space and not pressuring yourself to have to do a bunch of things straight after it because that's just going to let you back in shutdown and we'll know it down again yes and accepting that shutdown and meltdown neurodivergent experiences that are going to happen again and if you think that you can work get to a place where they never happen that's going to set you up for potentially feeling a lot of shame and failure when it does occur so it is just part of it it's part of it it's going to happen yeah and we've got to accept that and not feel that extreme shame when it does happen yeah and so educating yourself you know you can get your loved ones to listen to this section of the podcast and you can actually say to your partner or their family parents whoever you're with this is what I need and this would be really helpful yes so that I don't you know have that shame that makes these continue and continue far more frequently because I think that that always going to happen, but I think that possibly they can happen less frequently if we have that shame free approach. Yes. Yeah. And in a really simplified way, if people are finding understanding neurodivergence really complicated, saying to them, just saying the sentence, "When you see me react like this and it feels very odd to you or different, it's because you're seeing that through a neurotypical lens." Yeah. Yeah. And expecting a shit too, when actually there's a dopamine. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. [Music] Oh. So this has been quite a serious episode. It has. Yeah. And if this is your first time listening, we actually usually do in a reggae, so you get this point in the podcast. Which is not a well-known term grace. No. A reggae saggy stands for a regular segment. A regular segula. And that's just basically because we always want to come up with something different to play at the end to satisfy our regular brains. Yeah. So we're not going to do it this week because it's already been an hour and this has been such an important topic that we just wanted to sort of let this one sit with you so you can process it. Permiate. Permiate. But if you're keen for more on this topic, we actually didn't interview with an Audi HDR called Olivia in episode 16 and we talked about meltdowns in that episode too. Yes. So as we said, Ty and I gave our perspective, but if you want to hear a different perspective again, go and check out episode 16. Olivia gave so many tips and so many insights on what meltdowns feel like for her. And she's an autistic ADHD. And she was a sweetie pie. She's gorgeous. Sorry. Interrupted you. And we, we back next Thursday. Yes. As always. We will and we will have a fully loaded. You would know what that means. A very good, a regular soggy photo. We promised you guys to make up for this lack of a regular soggy photo. But you know what? It actually features you guys next week. We want to talk about the RSTs that you sent in. Yes. Yes. We've been talking about RST corner a lot and you guys have sent us yours. So you'll be featured if you've sent it. You'll probably be featured next week. Yes. And we still doing the regular soggy today. This regular soggy is not regular soggy. Just keeping for rest. Wow. Did you see what I did there? Yeah. You never know what you're going to guess. Smooth. Yeah. But as we said in this app, this is also a great app to play to the people in your life that you want to understand you. Yes. And champion yourselves. Yeah. So just feel free to share this episode with your support people, with your family. And when you do that, do you know what it does? It helps other gorgeous little ADHD brains to find out podcasts. Yeah. Or other support people to find the podcast so that there's more people championing us in the world. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we need. It is. And before we go, a standard issue. Yes. What don't we do? We do not. RST. Start, if you don't know what that is, that's rejection sensitive- specifically -Don't know a extreme sensitivity to rejection -Yeah, even if you don't know what it is -I don't know how it's doing -And we love you! We love you! Bye Bye Bye Bye [Music] This podcast was recorded on Madundi, Budgerland always was always will be Aboriginal land It's integral that we acknowledge the original owners of the land seas and waterways in Australia and that we remember the devastation that happened on this land to validate the history of Australia's indigenous people and to ensure devastation like this never happens again