How to Market Yourself like a Popstar (Ft SVP Warner Records)

A great artist to me is about so much more than just the songs. It's the entire world they build in the culture they inhabit. The fashion, the music videos, even down to the hair or colors they use. Everything is intentional. And when I think of some of the greatest artists of our time, they are people who are geniuses at creating that world. From the way Beyonce plans out every performance or how Taylor defined her errors, Charlie understanding the power of the niche or Kendrick in his power of storytelling. They are so much more than just music. They combine the visuals and all of these elements to tell a story. And that is true artistry. And arguably the most important way you have to tell that story is through marketing. How they tease the music, engage with the fandom, create lore, music, and marketing are two sides of the same coin. Because it doesn't matter how great your story is if you don't have a way to tell that story and reach the people who resonate with who you are. So how do you create that world? How does an artist break through in a time where there is so much more music than there has ever been before? Well, that is exactly the question we set out to solve here today. And what better guests to have than Sam Riddell as VP of Warner Records? And a friend of the show, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is going to be fun. I'm excited. And I'm very interested like what you do is so fascinating to me. I mean, it's like the entire business side of music essentially. And I think very interesting perspective for like the aspiring artists or people who want to work in music out there of like what does someone like you think and do when they get the song, you know what I mean? Yeah, it really varies. What's fun is that every project, every artist, every label, every instance of how like the origin of a song being released is different, right? So sometimes it starts with a secret meeting that everyone hears the song for the first time and they're excited. And then we trade ideas. And the artist tells us their vision. Other times it can be you hear a demo version of the song that isn't quite done yet, but everyone's excited and you start kind of kicking round ideas and figuring out what makes the most sense to bring this to market, bring it to the fans, and who the fans are. I think that's a lot of times where it starts and where the conversation starts is like who are your fans? Where can we find those fans? What do they like? What are they into and being able to connect with people on a deeper level than just the song? Yeah, I love like who. It's such an interesting thing. And I think it's a tough thing for artists like think about themselves, but it's so important. And like a very useful exercise. Like I even had people like had things where I'm like trying like draw. Like what does your friend look like? What do they wear? Where do they go? What stories do they shop at? You know what I mean? Like interesting. Also I like like to observe at concerts. You know it's like what are these people? I mean like that's one of the most fun things. It's like I get to go to so many shows and I still absolutely love it. I still go to shows that aren't for work for fun. And I'm super fans of artists myself, right? Yeah. But going to a show for work versus going to a show for pleasure, you do have different lenses on, right? You look to see, I mean the ultimate sign of fandom to me is if an artist is performing, is everyone at that show dressing like the artist? If you go to a Tyler the creator show, you know that. When I was in college, I was that kid dressing like Tyler. The pictures are out there, maybe they're not. I hope they're not. Like it's one of those things where when the artist has that connective tissue with their fans, they they feel a piece of the artist within them and in their shared experiences and their moments. It's just like any other sense when you get that smell of a moment in your past. Totally. He's just like that. Totally. And I think one of the most interesting like examples of exactly what you're talking about with that outfit in the past year to me was like Sabrina Carpenter. Yeah, you know, like emails I can't send, I'm not sure you knew what to wear to that tour. Short and sweet, you definitely knew what to wear to that tour. Absolutely. And like when you look at like you know her from her going to becoming a top 10 artist in the world, like from that one album, having one of the biggest songs of the year, like it's so interesting exactly what you're saying. Like it should be digestible, it should be a Halloween costume. You should know it before you even like thought about it almost. Yeah, I think that's almost like an interesting test of fame, right? Like if somebody can go as you for Halloween and be recognized, then you're famous. Yeah, the fame is a famous spectrum, the fame is a scale, but that's like that's maybe that's like then your star or like superstar like that. Right, right. And then there's bits and memes and jokes and characters from the past of movies and stuff that like might be more niche and people will get, but like we're talking musicians. That's a really interesting good limit test for it. Yeah, and interesting like thing that like, it's something like people like you are thinking about too. Yeah, 100% absolutely. I mean, like there are instances where artists will sell merch to encourage that. Yeah. And it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point, but it's also like people are buying it. It's meeting a demand that people wanted. So it's not like it's a pushing on somebody, but connecting with your audience in that way and being able to make that connection. Yeah, and like feeling like a group, again, like I would say, like a joke, I always make with my friends. I'm like music is literally sports for girls and gay people. Like we're all, we're all like going to the stadium and wearing our little like jerseys and things to watch someone perform like. And when you think about sports, it's very like stark and visual where it's like, Bronco's jersey is right. Yeah, it's community exactly. It's just like any other pocket. And I think us as we are social creatures and we want to be understood and we want to be loved and we want to be part of a group of a bigger thing. And I think what's so fun with music, just like sports is you're kind of believing in something bigger than you that you can't control. And you sit there and all watching it, waiting for that moment to just like be fulfilled. And that's what's so special about it. Yeah, and like the collective joy, too. Like something about it. Like you feel where other people are in there. I very much want to circle back to this, but before we get there, I would also like love to hear like your lore. Your lore. How did you get into music? Like how did you start marketing? Like what is just the origin story? The idea of me having lore is beautiful. It's beautiful. It's a new thing I have never maybe thought of. I started in music when I was in college. I was going to Michigan State University. I was studying to be a lawyer. And I thought that that was like, I kind of grew up in the mid Obama term one and really believed in a lot of progressive politics and things that I felt could change the world. And I get to get to a big university. And I didn't find my community there at first. I was in classes with people that I just didn't maybe see either I with, I wasn't in love with the curriculum and the things I was doing. It was a bit lost. And I met a friend who was in the same dorm as me and he was volunteering at the College Radio Station at Michigan State. And I was like, huh, that's cool. Like I don't belong in a fraternity. I'm not athletic enough to play sports in college. So I didn't have my group of people. And I knew there was more for me there than partying, drinking, having fun. I did plenty of that while there. But that wasn't the sole function of that. So I started volunteering at the College Radio Station and absolutely fell in love with it. I started doing early morning DJ sets and was able to play music that I wanted to play. And it was really cool and creative. I met some of my closest friends. I still keep in touch with there. I ended up becoming the marketing manager of the station. That was the first paid job that I had in music, I suppose. And before that, I was cleaning dorm halls. And like minimum wage, painting white walls white. It was as like a meeting to put money in your pocket as possible. I didn't, I haven't looked back since. I think I always knew from that moment that I was going to work in music and have ever since. I ended up in that tenure becoming a college rep for Universal Music Group. It's essentially like a juiced up street team. It was a bit of putting up posters, setting up listening events, listening to music early, giving feedback, doing just kind of like the on the ground work that I was able to reach students at Michigan State. And that opportunity led me to a job with Universal Music Group. It was called UMGD, the distribution, kind of the center, as you call it. And I was working in Chicago as like a field rep for capital records, one of the labels at Universal. And that was like everything from calling record stores, asking them how many units of XYZ album they wanted to bring in to like local brand partnerships. There's this store in Chicago that had like 16 different locations, did a partnership with them and an artist to come by and do a signing, stuff like that, like very on the ground, physical marketing, as well as some sales. Eventually got moved to LA by capital and that changed my life. I had been to LA a couple times, but I grew up in Michigan. I didn't know anybody in the music industry growing up. I didn't like, I really worked hard every single step of the way and was able to get a job in LA. And that was another moment where I'm just like, wow, like LA. I was living a gross apartment in Hollywood. I was working in the sales department and was like helping the label rep for Apple music, kind of like pitch songs and was doing spreadsheets and just like, whatever I could, happy to be in the door. Eventually moved from that into digital marketing at capital. And that was around the time that they had started a partnership with QC. Little Yadi was putting out his first album. I was like the core demo young 20s hip-hop fan of Little Yadi. So I just embraced that project and made connections and started to really get inroads there, got super involved and then eventually took that opportunity and was offered an opportunity at rock nation to work in digital marketing at rock nation. That was like what I like to think of as grad school for me. I have so much gratitude for rock nation and the people I learned under and the artists I got to work with from Nipsy Hustle to Big Sean to Grimes to Mik Mill who I worked very closely with during like the championships there are going bad He was kind of pushing the whole free meat campaign that that was about like People who are unfairly I'm incarcerated started a whole reform organization got to see the world in the completely different Lens moved from digital marketing there and to day-to-day manager for me and that was like I was just like each step I've kind of was just like pinch me I can't believe this is actually my life. Yeah, it was awesome and then while their Rackenation ends up courting Megan the stallion brings her in as a client I kind of built a relationship with the summer for a team through a tour that meek and Megan had done And eventually get put on that project to to work as management on the management team of Megan the stallion and that was like Off to the races. I think she started with rock nation around it was right around hot girl summer when that came out And then was was able to see the world and I got to tour with artists I got to travel I got to go to award shows and it was just It was fascinating and and really changed my life in so many ways that I was grateful for and it was cool Like even telling this story being able to like dang. I really worked from radio to sales to digital marketing to management Yeah, like so many different fields that kind of brought me to where I am now I help look after marketing at Warner Records SVP of marketing there, so I have a roster of artists that I kind of help lead Strategy campaign project management for and get to like bring their vision with them to life and and be really be a partner and like Defining that vision executing it doing any of the kind of building the world. Yeah, exactly building the world No, wait you stemmed a lot of questions for me I also I love what you said about like just like your career in general. I very much feel that way like sometimes it feels like You're just like swinging on vines and you're like I don't know where this is gonna take me But at some point I'll like let go and grab on to the next thing, but Like when you were managing Megan the stallion and hot girl summer came out Did you like plan for that to become such a catchphrase like was that a marketing campaign? I didn't just happen Megan is one of the most brilliant marketing minds in the world That like that's not a hyperbole that's not a joke. I believe it. She is so Intentional and wise and knows how to speak to her fans and and create a personal connection with people whether it was the Hottie parties that she started throwing as little like crazy like one of them was a house party in Atlanta that I like She started these ideas and maybe people didn't see the vision, but the blank girl summer Yeah, it starts with Megan that was for sure that was Megan I think what a good team does is seeing the opportunity and they do the blocking and tackling for the artist to To really see the rest of the field. Sorry for the sports analogy. No, I love it But that that's her man. She's just so Smart and knows how to talk to her fans and is she that is one of those people that was going to be successful No matter what they did I just brilliant. Yeah, she's witty like when I watch like interviews with her like you can tell like her mind is like so sharp And and even in the way she writes, but also just like Like a conversation. Yeah, you can really see the way her mind is like working when she speaks which is cool and I even like with her most recent novel like I love and I thought this was so smart Like she did a lot of like references to anime. Yeah, which is like really interesting like those are huge fandoms But that's her like it's cool. I love it when Meg's in her glam chair getting ready for shoots. She's watching anime Like that is it's authentic. So during the pandemic we got her in contact with Crunchyroll Which is the biggest anime streaming service. There is yeah, and she we started doing content with them and she did a merch capsule with them And it started that was like one of the first seeds of bringing that anime thing to life actually rewind that she did a photo shoot with a magazine in an editorial one where she dressed up as a character and did cosplay like that stuff That she's really into and it it works because it's her. Yeah, and she's not faking it. She's not Like trying to like the best marketing is not marketing is just like being yourself And being loved for it and being unapologetically yourself and having Reasons for people to care. Right. It's it's it's like it to be an amplifier or like a megaphone But like what is being said? It has to come from yeah But it's even from her like the the slogans hot girl summers the ah noise like stuff like that like certain trademarks Like she can make that on a monopsy a noise and you know exactly who that is It's not a coincidence, but it's also not a gimmick either and I think being able to like Define such a interesting marketing piece, but not be gimmicky with it is so Brilliant. Yeah, then going to like your Warner years now like what are some one? I guess like what sort of artists do you work on and gives you? I have a few that I would love to talk about yeah, but then also like what like what does is marketing in music? And like to find like what teams are under you as a digital is it like what does that look like? Yeah, I I'm so fortunate that I get to work across every single genre all different types from hip-hop to pop to country to Literally every genre I'm able to work across which is really fun It's interesting and this is a something that we explain a lot is marketing at a record label isn't just marketing the big piece of it Is project management as well. So interesting. There's two phases to it. There's or two buckets right part of what I do is I Work closely with the artists in their management team to understand their vision distilled their vision and Preach it to the rest of the label make sure that the streaming team knows what the timeline is make sure that the Digital team knows what their interests are and how to Reach the fan base being able to explain to the rest of the building who the fans are like kind of the data analytics piece of it being able to figure out what the Press story is the press teams Generally are the ones who define the narrative, but we work together and bringing that narrative across every single bucket Then there's the fun stuff the marketing though like One artist I work with Omar Apollo and he had a song called I slip in so to announce the song I slip and we built these Nearly life-size ice sculptures and put them in Hollywood London and I think one in New York as well Yeah, we're able to do that. So like fun creative marketing things. It can be anything from wheat pasting to billboards to Obviously right now digital marketing is marketing. It's all it is all really one thing one artist's voice There's a separate digital marketing department at Warner and they do an amazing job and they've we've all worked on on such successful songs and campaigns recently that We win because we see it as a holistic approach where it's not just Do this video post it and then pray for virality. It's really Reverse engineering of how do we make you the artist the focal point of your campaign and make your art feels as special as is to you to the rest of your fans No, that's that's beautiful and I think so much of it too is like really making them understand the story Speaking of a more probably it's like one of the ones I'm gonna talk about of course. Omar is such an incredible artist and like he's an artist to his core And I think everything is a artistic expression to him that What matters the most is is the music? I think there's been moments. I know there's been moments in his career where it really breaks through and you ever green and Certain certain songs that are timeless and I think he Approaches his art with music first and he's not Reverse engineering trying to run a gimmick to make somebody care about a song because of a video he made But the songs are so important and special that they stand on their own That that's kind of where it all starts with Omar and where he wants it to go One of the things I want to talk about too is like the position of like men in pop in general is like so fast Listening to me like we've kind of witnessed this like death of the male pop star Like we went from decades So that's where I want to ask you what defines a male pop star because I don't know anymore And I think that's like part of the question. I think that's part of it. Drake is a male pop star Like is by no shade or anything Morgan Wallen a male pop star really seems to I think Morgan Wallens Like when I think of it. He's definitely country. I'm don't give me one there, but I think popular appeal What I what I think the like male pop star line From the early 2000s like dirty pop like we're talking Brittany Justin. Yeah 98 degrees that world like the boundaries of what a pop star is Have expanded Interesting world now encompasses different genres. So you might not see the archetype early 2000s pop star as much anymore because as a culture it's not as Sectioned or like siloed I agree and disagree like I I agree that you're saying in terms of like Disexpansion of the genre for sure, you know like like exactly what you're saying like Drake is a rapper that has like pop songs Like he is and he is popular appeals was the biggest arts in the world for like years one of the longest running course And you can say something like even like the weekend or like post Malone like they kind of like tipped in and out of those sorts of genres But I still think that like Like we went from a run of like Michael Jackson and then like in sync just in timber like Justin Bieber one direction Harry Styles And then like none like that sort of like you know like the young girl fan of Jonas Brothers even you know I mean like are in there like that sort of thing like I don't think it's that the appeal isn't there anymore I think for some reason Nobody has figured out how to do it right in the era of music that we're in like it is so Rewarding the artist who are so willing to go for it like visually like we're talking about earlier with Tyler the creator Right like he has an entire character for every album Chopper Rowan is like doing an entire performance in every show You'd see some how Sabrina went so deep with it with like the sexual and new windows and what she's wearing and you know being this like [BLANK_AUDIO] like flirt and like Harry really goes for it in that way, you know, in terms of like his own like eccentricism blah blah blah. And I don't think like I struggle to think of a man who's like going for it to that level. But I think I think males get criticized for going for it for that way. And I think there becomes a backlash for like right now in culture, I think like non-chalance is such like a valued thing that like when someone really goes for it and tries it is like there's like this meme of ASAP Rocky where he was like since when has it become cool to not try something along those lines where I think someone like Benson who tries and leaves it all on the field gets unfairly criticized. I don't even think it has to be like a specific like femininity or aestheticism in that way. I think it's like this like like I wouldn't say tower the craters like that at all. But I would say he's somebody who really goes for it in that way. Yeah, of course. And like an example of somebody who I think is really starting to do it now is somber. Yeah, somber is like what I think is like a male pop star now. And he is like I wouldn't compare him to Harry Styles at all in any way. And I think it's because he so clearly has like this one like a clear visual aesthetic that's like starting to develop this like noir type theme. His music feels like referential and new at the same time. It's like very 80s inspired but you also feel influences from like the neighborhood and purse the way like that type of music. And he's really young too. Like so young. Yeah. So like he's someone who I think has really figured out how to do it. But then again too, I'm like I don't also don't know if I could pin what exactly like why it's such a vulnerable state to be an artist in this day and age because everything is so microanalyzed. I get turned off by by people culture life when when it just becomes trendy to hate on something. I think that I think that's like a cop out of of insecurity. Yeah. And I literally made a video on exactly this topic that you're talking about called the death of nuance. Yeah. And just how like everything is extremism. Like it feels like you cannot like or dislike. You cannot make the mistakes. You are either like loved and everything you do is amazing and you are the best artist in the world. Or like you suck. Everybody overheads you. Nothing you do is good. And it's like whatever happens to like a nuanced opinion. Yeah. Like I really like that one album. But the rest of their music isn't for me. Like there's no ability to like have that anymore. But I think I think that comes from. I think it comes from the internet. Yeah. It's exactly what I was going to say. Like for sure. To draw people into more content to get more clicks. Yeah. People give a hot take. Whether it's like the same as like a news debate show. Totally. And there's no nuance in politics left either. Yeah. Right. Like I think there is a cultural like race to the bottom in some ways that have the hottest take. Yeah. Whether it's one side or the other love. Hey left right. Everybody wants to like go to the furthest extreme to prove their so down for the cause versus listening and having a little bit of more empathy. Right. And I always say like it's weird. Like the only way to be criticized by both sides is to be in the middle. You know, like it is. And I think that that's a big part of it. I also just think in general, like extremism works on the internet in any and all capacity. You know, like you see a Mr. Beast YouTube video that's like $1 hotel room versus $100,000. And you're like neither of those things are realistic or like a relevant story to any human being, right? But like the extremism works. Like something about being at the end of the spectrum where either you love it or you hate it. Like makes people engage with the thing, right? They're either I this is the coolest hotel room ever. They're like, you're so stupid. This video sucks. And an algorithm does not care. It's just like, this is a comment or this is this amount of views. And I think that is why like this extremism and like artists really get a lot of like the worst fit. I think also just because they're like very specifically people, whereas actors get to be like, Oh, this is a role or this is a movie, you know, an artist like you're just you. Right. But I don't know. It's it sucks. Yeah. I agree. I think they're I think we need a little more empathy. I think understanding where artists are coming from that I get into this argument with my friends all the time. I have a theory that there's no such thing as bad music that all music is inherently good because it is an expression of somebody's creativity. That's beautiful. And if you don't like it, that doesn't your opinion does not dictate whether it is good or bad. It's just not for you. It's just your opinion. Yeah. But all art, art, whether it's music, paintings, like any kind of art or creativity, I think is inherently good because it adds value to society. And if it's not for you, it's not for you. That doesn't make it bad for the next person because the next person has their own opinion and take on it. I very much agree. Like art is meant to be reflective of your own experience and like the experience of the artist. And there's times where that overlaps and it really resonates with you. And there's times where it doesn't because it doesn't doesn't like impact the quality of the thing. And some of the most impactful artists are the ones that allow fans and people to be seen within their art. Yeah. Not every art piece of art artists are able to resonate with the masses that doesn't make it better good. But there are artists who are more popular because they can help people resonate, connect, feel something, evoke emotion. And that's kind of where I think where popularity comes from. Yeah. And totally. And I also think like to like a lot, anytime, like I've seen artists where like the music doesn't do well, it's to me, it's like, or like even if I don't like the music, it's like it's not if the music is good or bad. It's like I didn't understand who it was for. Yeah. That is I think all like the eternal messaging issue. But maybe it wasn't for you. And that's why you don't understand. Totally. Yeah. Totally. But there will be songs where there's like artists that are very successful. And I don't like the music. But I do understand who it's for. Sure. And that's why I'm like, oh, this is why this works. And that's such an interesting thing again, too. Like going back to like one of the first things you said is like we think about who verse. Yeah. You know, like who is it for? It's important. I think everything has a beautiful chance to work. Whether in that's like the democratization of of the internet right now is that it gives every one a voice. Yeah. And it gives everyone the ability to find a fan, to connect with people, to grow, to be shared. And that's kind of like the fun part of what I do is our role in this is is more to like create the momentum behind it. Yes, we can create moments as well. That's a piece of it. But it's not solely that. There's every single project what I do is different. Yeah. Like there's some projects where I'm extremely close in it talking to the artist every single day because that's what they want. And then there's some artists that would prefer that their team handles certain things. And that's okay, too. There's right a wrong way to go about this approach. I think it's it's just really such a custom tailored thing that it's fun. It's a every day is a different puzzle for me. Every day is a different problems I'm solving and problems are is a loose term. Right. But it's that's what makes it exciting. No, that's has there ever been in time and artists came to you with an idea and you thought there is no way this is going to work. But then it did. There have been campaigns that I was watching from outside that I it wasn't for me and I was very skeptical. And it caught like wildfire and it ended up working. And those are those are some of my favorite things that I get to learn from. Me too. Because it's a it's humbling and it gives me a bit of hubris where I'm just like I don't know everything and I try not to approach I try never to walk into a room and assume that I have the best perspective or assume that I can be the person to solve all the problems in the night in the room type thing. Totally. But the most interesting in instances are things that I'm not even connected to in any which way and see that. And I'm like that's a mistake this that like I put my critical lens on and then be completely wrong. And that's that those are fun to me also like something you said earlier that I would love to like ask more about is like really like when you're talking about like marketing the artists. How does that look like? Is it like music videos? Is it social? Is it PR? Is it interviews? Like where does like step one? Right? Like I just came to you with a song. You listened to it and you loved it. Like what is the playbook? The playbook I mean playbook is loose. There's not like if we had the red button to be able to make every artist six any artist successful we would use it for every artist. Right? This is why I hate when people say industry plan. Yeah. I'm like the industry couldn't plant some industry is trying to plant somebody every day. Yeah. But there's a reason there's a lot of money that like has to go into like developing an artist. Like I think the first thing that we always try to do is hear from the artist or their representatives about what it is their what their vision is and what they would like to accomplish with this. Yes. And then we go to the different departments be it digital, PR, those sort of things and then kind of pull together what sort of like a strategy document like here's the timeline. Here's the assets that we have whether it's an idea for a cover art. Some artists are like I already have the cover art done. I love this. This is what I want to do. And some artists are like I don't really know when I need your help. And that's that's kind of the fun part of Being at a label is, again, everything's very. different. So that's that's a piece of it and sort of pulling together this document of like who are the people we're looking to talk to? How do we reach those people? I think what's super important is setting goals and being able to like set objectives and understanding what the key results are under those to reach those objectives. Yeah. That really helps kind of guide the whole mission. Making sure that everybody on the team is involved and the team isn't just always the label. The team's also the artist's management, the NDPR if they have that, the digital person, their creative director. Like every team is shaped and built differently in making sure that everybody is aligned and across what we're looking to do and what really what we're looking to do is a reflection of what the artist is looking to do. Interesting. One of the things I wanted to ask about within this specifically is music videos. Yes. So there is a lot of like discussion that labels don't want to fun music videos false. In my personal opinion, I think a music video is like the most important thing for any artist. And I think especially now we are seeing a major comeback of music videos. If you see like especially like with like specifically like Chauperon and Madison Ray or like two artists like really fascinated me because it was album one and they did like six singles and six music videos and that really worked. Like something about just I think momentum like like consistent release with consistent visual to like you give it like 30 days for the internet to like do its thing and then it was like the next one. And I also think it's like just like building lore is important. So like I'm very interested like what are your perspective on music videos as a label? I think the first thing I want to say is that the misconception is that labels don't want to create music videos. We absolutely do. We still have extremely talented creative people that work on our teams that commission, build, produce music videos. We work very closely with directors. But I think the most important piece for an artist depends on the artist. For some artists it might be the music video. For some artists it might be the short form video. For some artists it might be their fan-to-fan connection in their text community line where they talk to their fans directly. It really varies. So for each campaign everything's different. And I think every communication channel being as granular as each specific short form platform or social media platform snap TikTok Insta Facebook whatever. Right. Facebook groups still extremely potent thing for some artists. Oh yeah. Country and it's still important. So every artist is different. So we yeah for some artists it might not make sense to make a music video. And they're okay with that. For some artists they want to make a music video to get their creative expression off. And we're okay with that too. Right. Like I think that the shift is from there being one single and the shift has happened over time. It's not like this just happened. Right. But there was for a long time with MTV and the TV networks one singular way to build your world. Yeah. And that was through music videos. Well not one singular. That was kind of the most prevalent one. Pretty much. But I guess as part of the brain campaign here or there. Yeah. But now you have so many other tools at your disposal to build that world that it's not singularly written on the music video. Right. And it's important to be able to meet the fan where they are. Totally. And communicate with them on a level that they want to be communicated to. And entice them and excite them and get them into a point where they're like, this is this is it. Yeah. Like live on every word, content piece, song, lyric, those things. I think I think someone like Taylor. I mean, like what the 10 music video or the 10 minute long music video she did. Yeah. For one of the Taylor's versions. And you don't need to just have a three and a half minute music video to tell you to build your world anymore. You can do it in so many other pieces. I agree. That music videos are extremely important. YouTube is extremely important for so many different ways and levels when it comes down to building your world and and having a vlog and building your world and using your shorts to bring people back into your main page. Like I think the way that YouTube has been able to build like an ecosystem within their platform is so impressive. That we would never disregard music videos outright because of how important it is to the fans, how important it is to to connecting to a bigger audience that people that aren't your fans yet. Yeah. I actually agree very much to what you said. I think multiple things. One, I think a lot of artists when they want a music video is like they want a spectacle, not a story. And they are really thinking a lot about like creating this big mass of thing. And I think a lot, honestly, my opinion like a lot of the best music videos are very simple. Like they're very like a- What's your favorite music video? A 3 minute movie of the song of all time. Yeah. That's such a tough question to answer in the spot. I'll answer it first. Okay, go, go, go. Well, I think about my answer. A music video that literally changed my life. I remember the first time I saw it was Jay-Z's big pimpen and like seeing him on the eye and just look so fly. I was just like that is the coolest thing ever. And then you get to like and it created the ethos. It's like him saying the man. Exactly. And it's something that he carried forever and he was always my favorite artist. One of my favorite artists growing up and it's cool coming full circle working at rock and being able to like be in that ecosystem. But like music videos are so important to me as a as a fan. I'm like I am doing this because I am a fan of music. That is like it's not because I want to hang out with star like it's none of that. It's like I love music so much. I listen to it every single day. I've traveled around the world to go to concerts, museum exhibits, things that are all related to music from like weird ambient stuff that like I understand as a fan that music videos are important and it's a connective tissue that I have to the artist. I love so I would never we would never disregard them as a as a piece. Right. But you still have to answer my question. My answer is hold up by Beyonce. Love it. Like that's just like I got like her being underwater. I love that our mind was doing that. That's yeah. It's just right. It's just right. It's just right. But like that I like I think that was just like one of those videos. I just like remember watching for the first time like you know like just like like a visceral reaction. You know what? The Beyonce formation video was on my Twitter feed this week and I like hadn't watched that video so long. That's a good one. It was so cool that she did that at that time because it was like that low-fi aesthetic and like not what you expected from Beyonce. But it worked so well and like it's such an important story telling to me. No, it is. And also something I was like thinking about when we were talking about that earlier. Like I was trying to think of examples like oh like artists who didn't do a lot of music videos this past year. The first one I thought it was Charlie. Like was what was genius about Charlie is like she didn't do a lot of the marketing. She let other people do it for her. Yeah. Right. It was the brat wall and like other people were filming that. It was her doing the pop-up performances. Her doing boiler room, her doing Times Square. Like she wasn't actually like making a ton of music. There was two. Like it was she and she had two albums in a year. And like what's interesting is like she focused so much on like experiential like in-person interaction with the people who consume her music. And that actually created like more virality than attempting to do something viral if that makes sense. Yeah. I mean she is such a fascinating. I mean it's going to be studied and discussed for years. I think she's like one of the best music marketers in history. I fully agree. And I her team's all brilliant. They're all people who the reason Charlie worked is because Charlie was simply being herself and had a vision and had an idea. And she had extremely supportive partners around her from the label side that I don't work for her label. But I know people that work with her and like I know her team. And they all support her vision and get it because it's a vision that it's like her lived experience and that like she wasn't like doing these pop-up things because they were stuff that she thought would go viral. It's like that's just like how she rolled. It's cool. She's so approachable and such a cool human. Yeah. But even going back to her music videos, she's still built a world around it. She had Rachel Sonnen in the video. And like she specifically had those cameos and those pieces in the video that created that talking point beyond just the song that continued to give it layers. Yeah. Yeah. And with like who? That was so interesting about like 360s and music videos. They like instantly defined like who is Brad? Yes. Right? Like that was the point of that. Like the scene where they're all sitting at the table and they're completely different people from completely different like career paths and walks of life. But you also understand how they all make sense in a room together. Exactly. Even though there is no direct tie. And like that was what defined. This is who Brad is. This is what Brad is. And again, it's like talking about that ethos portion. Yeah. That's so important. Speaking of ethos, I think a very interesting album to talk about would be radical optimism. Because I really liked this album. I really also, I'm interested to hear your favorite song on the album. It's my favorite song on the album. Probably illusion. I mean, I love Houdini as well. And also Houdini like was a hit. Two times platinum. Tell him. Tell him, come with me at the stats. We threw a concert in the middle of Times Square that I think like 10,000 plus fans came to with an hour's notice. That's so cool. SNL performance or co-host and performance or host and performance, rather that Yeah, it was, there's so much noise out there that it's never been harder to cut through the noise, but the fans who love you will always define what the noise that reaches them is. - Yeah, and I thought that this was like one of her most well-written albums. I think she really went deeper personally into her own life and relationship experiences than she has done in the past. - It was an album that was deeper and not wider. - Yeah, it was deeper. - My favorite song in the album was These Walls. And I love the metaphor of that song of just like, okay, I have a house that has literally the walls of my house have witnessed the entirety of their relationship. That's cooking together, fighting, that's cuddling on the couch. And if those walls could talk, what would they say to me? And the song being written from that perspective is so freaking cool. It is such a banger song. I'm obsessed with that song. And I love that, like the idea of like, taking one metaphor or like personification, I guess of a wall, and then just like, writing how that would, how she thinks it would say, but then also I think in that process, you probably reveal a bit of your own like. - Yeah, I mean, hard truths that you know, but we're struggling to admit. - It's also impressive to be able to write a uptempo pop song that makes you wanna cry. Like that is such a juxtaposition that I think she has nailed in so many ways with her writing and creativity that you feel the song and then you hear the song and you're almost the juxtaposition of that is just fascinating. - Yeah, also in my favorite thing that she put out, and I'm saying this in hopes that somebody from do a team is watching, I think I'm in love with you with Chris Stapleton. - Yeah. - That I was obsessed with that. - Yeah. - And it was like, like she doesn't use her vocal like that, as often like in her music and it's like very like, upbeat pop like dancing, that's her vibe. But I was like, I was gagged. I want her to like go, like it was like sultry, you know? And like to hear her like her user voice in that way, I absolutely loved. I think she could crush like writing music like that. - Yeah, and I think, I mean, there's songs where she has, I mean, Falling Forever is a song on the record that she really gives the vocal range. I think on this album, she gave more vocal range than on Future Nostalgia. - For sure. - That was fun. I mean, it was something that came about because her and Chris Stapleton were fans of each other. It was organic and it wasn't like, like again, the best marketing ideas are things that are natural and organic and are just supposed to happen because of the way that life and everything times out, that it was an opportunity that came about because of a mutual relationship and then like connection and fandom of one another that it made sense. And she wanted to do it. - She just like DM him. I genuinely don't remember exactly, there was, there was a direct conversation between the two of them. I don't want to say. - That's so cool. - I'm so cool. - Did what first, 'cause I don't remember or know, really. But there was a reach out and they both were like, absolutely a huge fan. - That's cool. - That's cool to share the stage. And I mean, Stapleton is such an interesting artist himself where he's an introspective guy. I've never worked with him. I don't know him any of those things. But like, he's an introspective guy who makes heart-wrenching ballads for the most part. He has a tempo songs too. But songs that just like really rip your heart out. But he's not like on the internet like over exposing himself in any way. And that's like, it feels like such a true artistic expression that that's where it makes sense with someone like Dua that she can write a song like these walls and like really pull that out of you in a different way, different genres. - I mean, she has like an entire podcast interviewing authors. - She's brilliant. - She is like, she's so cool. - She is brilliant. She is intellectually as astute as anyone I've ever met. She just is a superhuman. - That's so cool. Okay, if you're more artist, I want to ask you about. - Okay. - One of the ones I'm very interested here, your opinion, is Sailor. - Yes, because I think she's like really starting to have a moment. - She's definitely having a moment. I think Sailor has done a great job and disclaimer, don't work with her. You don't know her, have seen her live and was impressed. I think that she is doing a great job of like distinguishing who she is. Like one of the things that I think aspiring artists can think to is like, what is going to have me stand out from the next video on your feed? - Yeah. - And if you're scrolling your feed, whether you have, whether you're familiar with Sailor or not, the second time you see her, you're gonna remember that because of how she presents and I think it's so cool how she, the black, I don't know if it's a griller or like the black, blackening of her teeth, I believe it's a homage to her Vietnamese background and it's something that's authentic and has story to it. And I think being able to take pull from your past and your heritage and define it into your now is so special. And she makes great music. Like it makes great music. - That's it. The artists who are the best at marketing are seemingly the ones who make great music as well. - Yeah, it's very easy to, it's a lot easier to market when the product is good. - Yeah, but it's also like, the product is good because the marketing is good, the marketing is good because the product is good. Like it's also a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. I contradict myself there. - No, I give what you mean. It's like the story and the storytelling aspect. Like if you have a very clear understanding of the story, it's a lot easier to tell it. - Yeah. - I think something like two things interesting about Sailor. One, I was really like listening to the writing of this album and like something I think she's like really tapped into well. That I think is like generally working well in music is this sort of like feminine rage. I guess I would say like, you know, like good luck, babe. It's like positive, but also there's a bit of like anger in it. You know, like you, like, she's kind of calling this person stupid or like please, please, please Sabrina is very like don't embarrass me, mother, effort. And like, Sailor with like Puke's Requiem and Bitches Brew. Like she's found like this way. - But even if you think of it, distill it down to those two titles. - Oh yeah. - Obviously a Miles Davis reference and like, okay, she has like deep references, that's cool. - Right. - Puke's Requiem is like so cheeky. Like Puke is obviously like internet meme, the guy who was called, like everybody. I don't know the exact origin of the phrase Puke, but like there's a bit of memeification internet picture around that. - Yeah. - Very smart Requiem, Requiem for a Dream Funeral. Like the way she is presenting is so fascinating and clever as well. - Yeah, it's, I mean, even like the album cover is like an Animorph's reference. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's like, it's like, she's serious in the songs, but a bit irreverent and fun in the presentation. I think it, she found a way to land that very well and it's resonating, it's working. - Yeah, totally. Okay, another one is Nessa Barrett. - Yeah. - Because I think about Nessa Barrett a lot, especially when you think of like this very like wave one when record label started signing TikTokers. And a lot of them, arguably most of them did not work, but Nessa really did. - Yeah. - And I have always thought about like why? And like I think the reason Nessa really worked is like, she's always had this very distinct point of view, right? Like she's not trying to be Taylor Swift girl next door. She's like Emo Pung, but also like pink bubble gum baby doll vibe. Like she can be dark and girly at the same time. And you so understood who that is for. Like it is this misunderstood high school girl who like listens to Pierce the Vale, but also listens to Lana Del Rey. And like she's not interested in looking like every other girl who shops at Brandy Melville, right? Like Nessa had such a distinct aesthetic, both visually sonically and lyrically. And I really like that, at least to me from the outside, it was like why Nessa worked? And when I'm compared to like Addison Rays, like initial album, you know, like it did not stick or her EP like did not stick. Nessa's music always had something so interested in like your thoughts of her. Also, I'd like to know your favorite song. - Tough one. Let me start with the thoughts of her. I think with Nessa, a star is a star, right? It doesn't matter if you're a Gen 1 tick tocker or a Gen Now tick tocker. Like to me, like the phrase tick tocker is even like cringe for anyone who says that, in a sense, that like it is simply a medium. And being able to cut through audience and make people excited isn't beholden to the medium. It's kind of more of what you're presenting and how you're presenting. And I think she does such a good job, a great job of communicating directly with her fans and making her fans feel seen, and making them feel felt and making them feel like they're a part of her family. And like they're so connected with her and the way the fans react to her at shows is incredible. I think she's been able to really come into her own and like it's incredible, like I said, growing up with a camera in your face is insane. - It's insane. - It is impressive and challenging. And I don't mean insane in a disparaging way, in a courageous way. - Yeah. - And the way she's been able to do that is really where some of her fans have grown up with her. And just because they met her quotes, found her through an app that doesn't mean she's defined by said app, it means that she was able to connect with people there and she's now able to connect with people now through music, just like Addison. Addison's pop in there and she's on fire. And I listen to the Addison pop cast with New York Times and I think hearing her perspective how long she's been working on music and what this really means to her and how she started as a dancer and it was always trying to figure out ways to express herself. It wasn't. wasn't about doing it for the algorithm, it was about expression and doing it in this motor that mode for us as people who are like watching or judging it. It feels like you're like, no, you have to express yourself through this medium because that's how I met you. Or how dare you challenge my perception of you when they're actually, no, no, no, no, no. My expression was the end goal, not to be popping on this thing and I'm going to express myself here. I'm going to express myself there. I'm going to express myself everywhere. Yeah. Also, another, I very much agree. Also, I think like, again, like what I think what Addison found was these things that I'm talking about because she found out how to build the world and found out what her world is and like what it's referential to and you know, Diet Pepsi feels so Lana, but she's also doing the walking around reading a Britney memoir and like, you know, like she like found out like how to make really great music videos to and you know, people like Arca and Charlie and like like she found that through time, which was really cool. I think as what I was trying to say earlier, it was like what was interesting to me about Nessa at that time was like she had it already, you know, like I think other artists, it took them two to three years to figure that out. And I feel like Nessa just always had it. Like she was always new. She always knew what was like her sort of like thing in world. My favorite Nessa song is "Grow in New York" if you've never heard it. I've heard it. Listen to it. That's one of my favorites too. It's hard. I can't pick favorite. I'm not going to give you one. "Grow in New York" is amazing. I think she's just continuing to grow and develop and keep making incredible music and she's so locked in and excited about doing that. Yeah. It's cool. Cool. Okay. Like last one that I will talk about and we talked about a bit earlier is I want to talk about somber again. Yeah. Because somber has grown like 38 million monthly listeners in three months. That is insane. Like how do you market that? Like how does that happen? And I'll preface this by saying I don't work directly on somber's team. He's a one of records artist but I don't like I don't work day to day with him. We all are one team and there's big room conversation stuff like that. But there's a core group of team members and then it extends beyond that that have done an incredible job. And I think somber is so fascinating because he has always had his finger on the pulse. Like he's a kid who duty grew up in downtown New York. And like there's kind of one or two ways that goes right either like beaten down by the world of how just like overstimulated you might be from growing up there or you become one of the people with the most incredible taste in the world and understanding like sociology and humanity and how to get people to react to get the world that you want for yourself. And I think that's what a lot of it comes down to. It helps when you're as good looking in as tall as he is and to top it off the music is incredible. The music is incredible. He really has found a part of music that is resonant and is poignant and really evocative emotionally but also the way he presents it that you feel it when he sings it and you understand that. And it doesn't feel like he's presenting something that he doesn't feel connected to. You can feel that connection when he sings. There's like two very interesting things down his music to me. One from the writing perspective, like something I think really why his music is resonating so well specifically back to friends and undressed is like it is yearning. Like you see all these memes on the internet of girls being like we need to bring back yearning and blah blah. And like somber is yearning. He's literally like I don't want the children of another man to have the eyes of the girl I won't forget. Right. Like it is so fucking great. Incredible lyric. A little writer just in general like it is so like you feel like the yearning. And I think it's he also is like tapping into an element of like humanity that just about anyone can relate to but is presenting in such an authentic way that comes off so cool because he is cool. Like that's what it is because that's who he is. So when you're able to connect with people through your lyrics but also present yourself in a way that is real and authentic but aspirational at the same time it's a it's such a unique mix and he's a special artist that I think has so much more to give to the world and just excited. We're gonna have an album yet. Yeah. A lot's gonna change. Yeah. Well Sam I wonder if you so much for coming on this. A delightful conversation and I think your perspective is so interesting. Yeah. Like to hear how you think about this from the top especially somebody who's like just I'm essentially just a consumer but I love to do what I do. Well consumers I think like that's where the perspective comes from that's where it starts that's where it ends like I would be worse at my job if I didn't love music right but I absolutely love it I'm a fan I care I buy tickets I buy merch I do all of these things want to be involved and I think having that experiences what I'm able to lend to other artists in perspective and help them and anyway I can and that's what makes me happy is helping them. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and thanks to y'all next week, peace