How to Make Any Person Feel Seen with Will Guidara

Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast on a days episode. My guest is Will Giderra. He is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, "Unreasonable Hospitality." If you see a bright yellow book in an airport or a bookstore, it's most likely Will's. He is fantastic. He is the former co-owner of the restaurant, Levin Madison Park in New York, and under his leadership, it was named the number one restaurant in the entire world. And he is also the co-producer of FX series, "Emmy Award Winning Show, The Bear." There are so many gyms from this conversation. We talk all about the art of hospitality in conversation. How do you bring creativity and deliver more than just the minimum expectations and how we interact with one another? We talk all about how to have the right kind of meetings, how to get attention immediately, how to navigate the right way, and at the end of the day, how to do it with grace and kindness, and a little bit of something spontaneous that you never expected. Enjoy. So you go to a restaurant and it's easy to pick up on those little moments. I imagine even when you're working, and even if you're just there hanging out, it's almost impossible for your eyes not to be just hyper vigilant the whole time. Well, so with intention. Yes. The other night at dinner, I sat in the chair facing the window. Yeah, I noticed that. I will always, if there's a chair where I'm looking at a wall, that's where I'll sit. Yeah. Just because I've gotten pretty good at it, but I don't need, it's like an addict hanging out with heroin on the table. It's unnecessary. Yeah, you don't need to be doing that. I don't need the distraction because I will invariably like, why are they? Yeah, and all of a sudden, you're gone from the conversation. And then I just miss the most beautiful part of the conversation that I helped to perhaps set in motion. I get that I have one of my best friends, was a policeman forever. And still, he sits always where he can see the door. Like, that's just he's not going to say anyway. He can't feel comfortable not looking at a door when he's down. I do the opposite. You do the opposite. Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't want to see it. And one thing I was going to say. But also, my work doesn't have the capacity to save someone's life. That's true. There's this takes a little dark training in the Heimlich. You don't say, like, he might be. I was going to tell you, this is a little gym. Most people don't know. So when I was at my old first law firm, big defense firm, and I was getting the itch of, I'm in my mid 20s. And who everybody in their mid 20s thinks, I know this better than everybody. Like, I'm the smartest. I know this. I'm right. Everybody else is wrong. And I was really wanting to learn business of like having my own business because I went straight from law school into big law and doing that life. And business hasn't starting your own firm. Yeah. Or just how do you have your own employees? Like, what's that? How do you do that? Yeah. And so COVID, one of my best friends, amazing chef by himself. And he had just gotten let go of this restaurant. And then there was this like I don't know what they call it class a commercial building that had a restaurant in it that was looking for a new person to come in. And so I came in with him. And we opened that little restaurant. Well, you actually did it. And the coffee shop right next to it. Like a, uh, no, American food little place that did really well. And and so I learned all about play cost and all of like what are your things in it? Yeah. You're like on the floor. Yeah. No, yeah. And so it was and I would help out on expo and try all the different. Yeah. And so it was, is that restaurant still there? It's still there. I that's sold mine. Part of it. Like I got, it was like I could either try to get an MBA in business or I could just put the same amount of money into doing it. Even though many would say not the best business model for for certain things, but it was it was fantastic. And I know what I learned a lot. And I think where is I wish I had had and we're going to talk into this field guide that you have. I'm I'm generally not a jealous guy. All right. All right. This field guide as soon as I saw it and got out my hands. I was like, dog, come on. This is so good. I wish I had had that because I came in and a lot of my creativity, which I think I know I'm actually very creative person. I just went into law and life has led me back to doing more creativity. Is I got focused on brand. I got focused on the right logo, the right tagline, the right like aesthetic. Yes. Instead of just serving people to what they were above and beyond and exceeding that expectation. And I know a lot of your stuff is it's not just hospitality is not meeting expectation. It is exceeding it and giving people more than they think they could ever deserve. And and so that was my like, I need to make sure I mentioned that to him. Thank you, Dan. So I wish I had had I wish I had that, but I got in and now I was I had it for like four years. And yet fun. I did. I had a blast and you learned a bunch. I learned a bunch. I had some of the biggest laughs I've ever had in my life just also there are few things. There are few groups that will ever be as close as a group that has opened a restaurant together. Right. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like because it's the entire emotional gamut. Yeah. Like you have all the highs and the fun and laughs and then those moments when you're on expo. Yeah. And you're like, I was a very successful lawyer. How does my brain have an inability to figure out how to figure out what play the food goes to what table within what frame of time and like. And then there's the teamwork to figure it out. I love that. And the thing was at the time the law firm was like shut down for a year. Yeah. Because they were trying to still get the time with the times of remote work. So you had space. And so yeah, I had space and because it was a commercial building, we were able to do a lot of stuff that others weren't. Yeah. Take advantage of proximity and six feet or whatever. But man, I left some of the hardest I've ever left. So in being back at house doing stuff like that. And we we had it was also some of the worst hurricanes. And so we were able to provide a lot of food for first responders. And so we're making food at like 4 a.m. Let's open a restaurant. Yeah. We have to figure out how to work with and all of the adversity that is COVID. Yes. You know what? What else would be cool? Hurricanes. So sorry, anybody got it? Anybody? Yes, that's it. Hurricanes. Let's go. Man, but mine is just a small fraction of just the depth of knowledge that you have in this industry. And I do, I absolutely want to get into the field guide, which I am just thrilled to be one of the first to get it in the hands. But what you articulated, like the brand. Yeah. And it is very, very common for someone to get like, all right, I want to be really creative about the food I'm a plate. I want to be really creative about what plates we use about what the room looks like. I want to be creative about what the logo is and the tagline and the uniforms and yet the one thing that people will actually remember is where people stop being creative. Yeah. And where they stopped where they stopped. No one very few people rather invest their best efforts into just the big and little things that make people feel a sense of connection to a place. Yeah. I think that's so right. And it's so counter it. Like the mummy say it out loud like that. Yeah. And it's like, oh, well, that makes sense. But yet. But yeah. Yeah. But yet. You have the book on reasonable hospitality. And I'm going to be able to share with my audience all of your background. But I my mind always turns to communication. Yeah. And so I have been toying with the idea of like what is the equivalent of unreasonable hospitality and communication. If we define hospitality as you do, the creative, intentional act of making people feel seen heard and cared for above and beyond the service. What does that feel like look like in communication? So I was curious in your mind, whether it's relationships, whether it's team, because I do want to talk team, what do you find are those moments that have been that unreasonableness that you benefited from in conversation with people. So some of your best friends. Well, I mean, I think a lot of your work centers around hospitality. Right. I really did like those two words, creativity and intention. I circle back to often. Right. I think the most beautiful things happen at the intersection of those two things, right? The intention of saying, I want to communicate this because a lot of people in communication are not very intentional about what is coming out of their mouth. Yeah. As opposed to saying, what am I actually trying to communicate? Okay, it's this. Then creativity. What's the right way to communicate it? Such that the message will actually be received and depending on the context, in a way that is supportive and not destructive or thoughtful and not insulting, right? And when it's that kind of communication, or if you're attempting to make someone feel some level of affirmation, they're actually communicating to them in a way that they can receive it well. Yeah. So like on the, I talk a lot about feedback. Right. I think you cannot create anything extraordinary in a business absent, like creating a culture where feedback is the norm. So when I talk about feedback, yes, I'm talking about praise, obviously, because when you set really high expectations for people and they meet or exceed those expectations, you better be there to celebrate them. Yeah. Because it's the right thing to do. But, well, the more praise I receive, the more praise I want to receive, right? You're telling people what right looks like and you're encouraging them to do more of that. And not to mention the fact that in a group, we're having a daily huddle and I'm celebrating the heck out of you. Yeah. Everyone else in the group is going to be like, I want a piece of that. Exactly. So obviously praise, but I think we focus so much on praise that we don't spend nearly enough time focusing on criticism. Because of praise, his affirmation, criticism is investment. So if we can say an equivalent of unreadable hospitality and communication is the value of criticism, done right. Thoughtful criticism. Yeah. And in the same way that I've watched your videos where you're like, hey, if you want to do this, like do this. Yeah. Right? Right. Where are some other ways that you could? Exactly. It's kind of like your idea of like, there's a better way to do this. There's a better way to do it. What's the rest of it? A hotel. You know, there's a better way to do this. But with criticism, I mean unreasonable communication and criticism, is recognizing that there's like things you need to keep in mind if you want it to be thoughtful, if you want it to be an investment. That's criticize in private, not in public. It's criticize the behavior, not the person. Remember that I'm telling you to wear white socks, not telling you're an idiot. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You're great. Right. Just do this differently. To criticize consistently. And some people are so uncomfortable with investing in someone else's growth through criticism that they don't do it until they're either in a bad mood or have the energy. Yeah. Two things happen when you are inconsistent in criticism. People don't actually know what right looks like because they could do the same thing three days in a row. And they're only getting called on it the third or a negative connotation is attached to it because you only do it when you're in a foul mood. Right. That's a bad way. Do you think that there's like a line between just feedback, general feedback and also criticism? I think criticism is a type of feedback. Okay. I think praise is a type of feedback. Yeah. Criticism. Not all feedback is criticism. No. If you do something great, my feedback is, hey, yeah, you crushed that. Right. That's feedback. Or if you do something not so great. Yeah. But listen, anyone that wants to grow, if they're not receiving criticism, they're never going to become their most fully realized self. Yeah. You have to have it. It's like if do you see a trainer for like a physical trainer? No. This is all organic. That just comes. That just comes. Yeah. That's right. All right. Well, I do. I probably would benefit from one. Just. I just started this year and it's a game changer. What is done is I spent it. I need some way for nutrition. I need somebody to help go. You need to eat these things because if I'm not careful with school drop off and everything, I will miss breakfast and I turn around and it's two o'clock and it's like, okay, it's getting the least healthy thing in the future. For sure. And then it happens. I'm really not hungry for 5.30 p.m. dinner with my kids. And so, you know, I, not my bed. That's what I need. Okay. So trainer. Well, first of all, it's a great thing to have in my experience because I get as much done in half the time. But if I'm doing a workout, not the right way, I want him to tell me what I'm doing wrong. Yeah. Otherwise, I'm just wasting time and I'd rather invest that time efficiently and actually get stronger by result of the investment. Right. And how much stronger you could get if you just move your form just like a little bit. But if every time the trainer was like, hey, do this sort of thing, bro, stop talking to me like, yeah, I'm doing it right. Guess what he's going to stop doing. Yeah. Let me make me. Right. Because it's too exhausting to give me the feedback. Yeah. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about cozy earth. First off, my mom has their pajamas set, which I gave to her last year. They, the company sent them to me like, here, maybe your mom's going to like these. I was like, let me send them to my mom. Who? Let me tell you, is the type of person who likes to salt and pepper everything. So she's extremely particular about all the things. And she told me so much that she loved these. I got a text from her three weeks before Mother's Day asking me if I still had my code for cozy earth because she wanted some more pajamas. I said, Mama, I will get them for you. So you'll know I got her some more pajamas. But that's how good they are. So if you, whether it's Mother's Day or not, who cares? If you know a mom or you're a mom or you're just someone who likes to sleep in a full set pajama, you can go to cozy earth dot com slash Jefferson used to coach everson and get up to 20% off. They have a 10 year warranty, awesome product, awesome company. Cozy earth dot com slash Jefferson used to go Jefferson for 20% off. Let's keep going. When I was on the way, knowing this conversation was coming, I was like, wow, I was just wrestling and kind of chewing on the idea of like, to me, what is that unreasonable hospitality in conversation? And the theme that kept coming up for me is grace. Grace can be an unreasonable thing. I can unreasonable feeling. And it draws that line between mercy and grace, mercy being you don't get what you deserve. Grace is you get what you don't deserve. And so so much in conversation, like you might deserve me to give you that clap back, come back insult right in your face. Yes. It would be unreasonable for me to have pause and decide that your worst moment is not going to determine how I respond. Do you know the phrase that I learned from my long time mentor, his name is Danny Meyer, is Danny Meyer. It was one of the central tenants of the company was charitable assumption. You say the company I want to unreasonable. You know, square house mentality. Yes. So that was like, Grammar City Tavern, Union Square and Cafe, it's where I came up. And there's a whole another idea about communication from that company, but he had these isms, like these short succinct. I love a good ism. Being on cheesy articulations of his non negotiables. And every time he made an idea into an ism, it was like a meta signal to all of us in the company that that thing mattered. One of them was charitable assumption. Charitable assumption is another way of saying give people the benefit of the doubt or ask the question before you say the thing. Yeah. So, the example, someone comes into the restaurant and they're just a jerk. They are just a jerk. They're acting like a jerk. Now, it's totally reasonable for me to say he doesn't deserve my best hospitality. The charitable assumption though would have me say instead, gosh, maybe on his way to the restaurant, he found out that someone died or his wife filed for divorce. Maybe the guy acting like a jerk actually needs my hospitality more than anyone else in the room. And for me to have that conversation and engage accordingly. Now, sometimes just so out of it, the person was just a jerk. Turns out, yeah. But I'd always rather err on the side of assuming the best in someone and being proven wrong, then err on the side of assuming the worst in being proven wrong. I think that's so true. If you can keep in your mind those babies, rather than they are exactly what you think they are. Yeah. And sometimes maybe they are. Yeah. But maybe they're not. But it's the same thing when you're managing people. Someone comes in and they've been like five minutes late to work for two weeks straight. And because I'm not criticizing consistently, I wait until I'm really upset. And I rip into them. Like, do you not care about this job? Like why do you think it's okay to disrespect us by coming in fight? Did it? Right. Chertable assumption would be like, hey, what's going on? Are you okay? Like I'm noticing your five minutes late every single day. a day and is there a reason? And by the way, maybe it's because that person, speaking New York right now, lives in Queens and there's two different buses that get them to Manhattan on time. One would have them arriving at the restaurant and an hour early, one has them arriving five minutes late and they have to get their kids to school. Okay, now I've asked the question, now I have that information. Now I can say, you know what, why don't we just shift your in time back 15 minutes? Yeah. You know, like, just a little bit like that. And now that relationship, how do I react to the first way it would have been damaged? Right. React in the second way, now it's actually stronger. Yeah. Because now they feel like I'm actually invested in them not just as an employee, but as a human being. And you gave them some grace. Yeah. And I learned something along the way. Right. And that in itself can be unreasonable, which is, I think the state of things sometimes, it, doing the kind thing can be and feel unreasonable to the given, to the given moment. Now you have managed, I mean, just the number of teams and the number of pressure. And I have heard your story of how love medicine part of just went under your helm to the number one restaurant in the world, which is just bonkers. Right. But the level of determination, not for just the food being perfect or this being perfect, is that you cared just as much about your team as you did about the people that you're serving. And so there are people that will be listening to this who have their own business, who are small business owners or big business owners that they are people managers. And so what I was really curious about, what are some of the questions and things that we need to think about as people managers? So what are some of your big like tenants that you're going, Hey, if I have everybody on hand, I know you have what do you call it? Premium. Premium. Yes. So those kind of like meetings, how do you, how can we better manage people? Well, okay, let's start with premium because that's one of my favorite places to start. And I'll frame what that is. So premium is the 30 minute meeting we have every day with our entire team right before we unlock the doors and go into service. And it's a meeting that most restaurants have. And yet it is one that is almost always wasted. And a waste of premium that happens when, well, you spend the entire time talking about ideas that could easily be communicated via an email like operational concerns because that meeting, it's called a daily huddle, right? In other worlds, it is in my view, the greatest opportunity a leader has to actually step up and lead the people around them. So it's taken are daily huddle seriously, taking them very seriously. For the regular mom, pop business, small business out there, when you have one, it's understanding daily huddles or necessity. Do you require that it be every day? Or is it? I mean, listen, I never, when I'm talking to people in other industries, I never want perfect to be the enemy of the good. A cadence that works. And the cadence should be more frequently than you're comfortable with. Oh, that's a good basis. Well, because most people, when they start doing this, they kind of started somewhat the bare minimum. And there is always time to do something. If we decide it's an important enough thing to do. I did 30 minutes a day before lunch and before dinner. So an hour a day, seven days a week, that is obviously not necessary. But some number of minutes. And when you have your team circled, it's not just focusing on the what, but on the how and more importantly, the why. When as a leader, we are walking through the world, looking for things that inspire us. So we can bring them home and share them with our teams. I've benefited from the popularity of TED Talks. And yet I think those are so successful because as human beings, we crave inspiration in very few people in our lives have answered the call to actually step up and inspire us. So many companies spend so much time focusing on training, which is important obviously. And yet training absent inspiration is wholly insufficient because I don't care how much, how well you know how to do a job. If you're not inspired to what to do it really well, you're never going to bring your most fully realized self to the table. I think a lot of leaders, even the ones that have that meaning, there's something about people that holds them back from bringing their most passion itself to it. Because we've all been in the receiving end of this at some point, like passion is contagious. There's someone steps up in front of you and speaks with every ounce of their being, why the work you are doing matters, how you can impact other people. Why taking it seriously is a virtuous approach to take. Why there's fun to be had or connections to be made, whatever it is. I don't think a lot of people can like fully understand that. I think communication with your team, people need to stop trying to be so cool and just be really, really, really excited because that bleeds into those around them. It's hard for some people. I mean, I'm thinking of like you have the history of what you've created empowered and gave autonomy to your team to say, "Hey, when you see those magical moments, so we can create unreasonable hospitality." When you overhear that table talk about going sledding or wishing they had a, you call it dirty dog. "Dirty water dog." How can we create these, cultivate these experiences with them? That is exciting because it's like you don't know every day is a new adventure of what could come up and so that unexpected surprise. I hear in my mind those people who, I don't know, they're a plumbing industry or they're a fabrication shop or they're a small accounting business of ways that they go. That sounds great, but I'm not in a restaurant. How can I possibly get excited about the fact that we do this and that and this? When what I hear you saying is, you're focusing on the wrong objective. What you need to be focusing on is what are ways that you can inspire yourselves to be excited about what you're doing and if you're excited. Other people are going to be excited. People are talking, "We'll be too." But here's the thing, it's not just a restaurant thing. I think there's no ability in service and I'd say 9.9 out of 10 of the people that are listening to this are in the service industry. They're in the business of serving other people. I think about the world that you came from. I would love to run a daily huddle in a law firm. You can do it for me, my man. But do you know what I mean? So many people focus so much on the objective that they forget about the people they are there to serve and the anxiety and trepidation with which they're walking into that room. You are there to defend them. But you were also there to walk with them through an unbelievably scary experience. And remembering that it is much more than pleading a case. It's actually like defending a human being during some of their darkest moments. And if that is not noble, I don't know what is. But I'm saying I could do that about any industry. I'm sure. Because I genuinely believe everything matters. It's just about how you look at your world and how you celebrate the impact you can make. Before we continue, I want to take a moment to talk to you about our place. I've got a question for you. When's the last time you've thought about what you're cooking with? In other words, the pan itself. Are you still using that pan from college? Well, let me tell you, you can upgrade. We love at our house in our kitchen. Our place. They have this four piece cookware set where it's like two, they go always pans and two perfect pods. And they're awesome. Let me tell you why they're awesome. Because Saturday mornings is dad breakfast. And what I very much value a pan on is if I can do an egg, put some butter in there or oil and have an egg go perfectly. Well, you can with this always pan. It's my number one go to aside from the cast iron that we keep in the back. And it's been fantastic. So if you or somebody who also cares about what you cook with, in other words, it's nothing that's like Teflon, PFA, is what they call forever chemicals, something that's clean and you know it's going to do good for you. Look no further than our place. So stop cooking with toxic cookware and upgrade to our place today. You can go to from our place dot com slash Jefferson use code Jefferson from the 10% off site wide plus you get a 100 day risk free trial with free shipping and returns, which is awesome. That's from our place dot com slash Jefferson for up to 10% off code Jefferson. Now let's keep going. I want to make sure we don't leave it. We feel like this we we button this up. So when it comes to communicating and people managing in teams. Yes. One is you need to have take seriously the repeatable cadence of communication with your team. Does it need to be in person or can it be virtually, you think? - I think it can be virtual. - Okay, it just needs whatever it is it has to be consistent. - And it needs to be, you need to be prepared for it. - Is there a certain way that you run the meeting in terms of we're gonna talk about this, this, and this or is it just kind of top of mind? - Well, so the way I always did it, I had notes that every single person on the team would be given a piece of paper. - Oh, you give them a note. - Yeah, and the paper was kind of everything, all the stuff I needed to make sure they knew. - Okay. - Depending on the company and the industry, it's different, right? - Yeah. - Like health insurance enrollment begins on this day, this policy change, this is a new system we're implementing, da da da da da da da. Now they have all the information I needed to communicate, literally in their hands. No one can ever say, - I didn't give it to you. - I didn't get the email. But I didn't check the portal or whatever. It's literally in their hands. If I have a few housekeeping notes, I'll say that at the top. And then I will come in to that meeting, prepared in the same way that I am now when I step up on a stage. - Right. - I'll say, all right, I want to tell you as a story of something that happened to me last week. And da da da da da da da, I'll tell the story. Anyone doing, anyone who's ever done public speaking knows stories make ideas stick. And then I'll talk about the lesson that I learned from it. And then we'll talk about it as a group. - How do you end it? - I would always end with this. The way the meeting started would be, what's today? - April full Wednesday. - Yeah. - So I would always say happy Wednesday. The entire group would say back and you'd just say happy Wednesday. - Yeah. - Just to start it. - Yeah. - And then at the very end, I would say, have a good service. And they'd all say back, have a good service. - Okay. - Just because I believe in rhythms and rituals. - Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, there's a reason why people will say, turn the person next to you and say, you know, I believe in this. You know, whatever it is, it's when the people say it together, there is a feeling of that unison. - Well, also like when you watch one of those locker room speeches at half time, - Oh yeah. - A movie and the team comes back and wins the day. - Let's go. - It's so fired up because of the end, they put their hands in, right? - Exactly, yeah. - Yeah. - I would always say, every day is the super bowl. Like every day you walk into service, you need to take it seriously as the biggest game of your life. Otherwise, there's people you're serving. That might be the only time they ever come into the restaurant. So you better take it seriously for them. - Yeah. - And there's something beautiful about team sports. And I think it's remarkable to me how many leaders played team sports in high school and college. And yet don't take some of the lessons they learned from team sports into how they lead a team. - I can see that. I think I more and more believe that managing people is a very particular skill. It is a skill that can be learned, but it is not easily taught. Like it's not something that without kind of being plugged into a system where you get shown how to do it. - Yeah. - It can feel kind of like you're in a lost place. Like I hear you saying, okay, I have a way that I start. I have a way that I end. Whatever industry you create it, how you want to create it. Say what you want to say. - Yes. - Be as goofy and as you and genuine as you want to be. But there's some things that you're gonna have to hit. And I love that you go, I'm giving you the information that I already know in black and white you gotta have. To I get to talk of what's on my heart and put it in a story. 'Cause everybody's got stories because we all live. You can just say what you did yesterday. But relate that to the point that you're wanting to hit home whether it's something that is specific to a special moment or a way that they have created impact. And so I think even if a company were to pull up their latest Google review and read it to their team. Like, you know, I mean, just to go just as a reminder that person you touched is how this is. - And also like finding and seizing and talking about inspiration as a practice. It's a muscle that you strengthen. You don't need it right away. Like in the beginning, hey, I was listening to Jefferson's podcast yesterday and he said this and it stuck with me. And I want to share with all of you. Tell me how you react to it. - Right. - That's a great pre-meal. 'Cause now you're actually flexing your brain and when you think together and dream together and create together brings people closer. The other thing I would always do, I worked Monday through Friday. Very, very long days. We're still up on the weekends. - What's a long day? - 9 a.m. to midnight. - Okay. - Yeah, that's a long day. That would count. - For a long, long time. - Right, sure. - On Saturday, when you got the schedule, there would be a star next to one person every Saturday. Which meant you're running pre-meal. - Oh. - And that gave them a heads up. Because I do believe public speaking is a leadership skill. - Yeah. - And also once you've delivered that speech and you know how hard it is to do it well, you're gonna be one of the most attentive people next time you're on the receiving end of it. - Right, right. - And so the more you can push people outside of their comfort zone and have them actually lead, the more ready they are to become leaders when their day is right. - I love that. So actually changing who gets to lead it like whoever's doing it and you're getting to change every single time. Man, I think that's a great idea for people to have for every team needing that they have. Somebody else run it. - Yeah. - Because then you all share in both the privilege and the horror and the anxiety of leading. And then it doesn't go, oh great, okay, we got Greg again leading leading here. It's okay, it's Lisa's turn. - Oh, it's a different breath of air. - Yeah, it's always changed. - It's always that quiet person on the team. - Yeah. - And sometimes they will stand up in front of the team and just stun people. - It's not their socks off. - And then the confidence, like, anyone you've ever seen that steps up on stage for the first time and celebrated for the work they did, it changes their confidence level. - Yeah. - And that confidence spills over into everything they do. - Right. I think that's sometimes the beauty of inside jokes. - Yeah. - Because it's something that we share. - Yes. - And because we can kind of riff off each other and have that level of bond, like if it's two people, whether it's, they're working on, it was the cold line or what are in there like, - Yeah, I know. - You know what I mean? And they're prepping for the day, like just to have that sense of, you have to find ways to make the mundane fun. - Yes. - And sometimes that, to me, is the same thing we do in conversation. Like what happens in a day in conversation? - Well, in my joke conversation. - Yeah, like an insider. - Yeah. - And that's what we all want. We all want to feel like we're a part of something. And the fewer people that are a part of it, the more special it feels to be a part of it. - Right. - I mean, that's why I love creating words within an organization like, orisms, like charitable assumption. Or we used to have all these little, like if you, say, if I still had a restaurant, now we've become friends. You come into the restaurant, I'm not there. I'm just going to send a text, Jefferson Fisher, dash, table 42, dash, crush him. - Yeah. - And with that being, everyone on my team would know what that means. Which means like, there's 17 different things we can do to elevate someone's experience, do as many of them as feels natural to what he's doing there tonight. - Crush him. - Crush him. - I love that. - And if I were to say that to someone else, they wouldn't even know what I was talking about. But to my team, it's clear. They said that right there is going to have to be a special experience for whoever is there, that night at the table. - Or another one, this is actually feels like it fits into your work. DBC. - Okay. - It was another one of our isms. Which doesn't listen. No matter what you do, restaurants are an extreme version of this high-paced. - Yeah. - You know, chaotic environments. - It was mad. - Yeah. - If people can get into the weeds, then when you get into the weeds and you start to get overwhelmed, that's when you start making mistakes. And that's when you need someone on your team to tell you to chill out or calm down. And yet, have you ever told someone who was overwhelmed to chill out or calm down and had it achieve a desired effect? - Never. - Never. So DBC, one of my best friends, his name is Andrew Tepper. He and I went to preschool together. He's still one of my best friends. He, he got a graduate degree in social work and he does a lot of amazing work with kids and he was working at a psychiatric hospital. There was a lot of kids there and he felt like the therapists were just over prescribing sedatives when kids were having difficult times. So he went to his parents' basement where they still had silk screening equipment from when he was a kid. And he designed these really cool t-shirts that just said in block letters DBC. Which meant the deep breathing club. And he wore one of them to the hospital and all the kids were like, dude, that's such a cool t-shirt. He goes, do you want one? And they're like, yeah, he goes, here's how you get one. - Here's how you get one. - And all they had to do is overcome a potential meltdown three times in a row through deep breathing and deep breathing alone. - Okay. - Six months later, half of the kids in the hospital were over in DBC shirts and the amount of sedatives being prescribed had dropped dramatically. - Deep breathing club. - I brought him to the restaurant. I had him lead premial a bunch of times over the course of a month. And I said to the team, I was like, guys, sometimes people here lose their cool. They need to be told to calm down. They need to be told to chill out. And yet, we all know that never feels good. So we're just replacing the words. Now it's DBC. - I love it. - And so literally, every night. So I would just walk over to someone else and just whisper to the other ear is like, hey, DBC, I got you. What can I do? I love that. And the simple change. Yeah. Yeah. But like, but also having somebody come alongside you. Yeah. I got you. I got you back. I've been there. Because and when you're back at house, yeah. And you have that chef or the part and then there's like, it's just like the bear. It's like you have people yelling and like, and you realize in that moment, they're just stressed out. Yeah. They're there. And their energy is impacting you negatively as opposed to your energy impact in the positive. Exactly. You know, you worry about this. I'll worry about and it gets into that. I want to I want to know a little bit. So you co-produce effects the bear. Yes. Which is just the wildest thing. Again, I'm not a very often a jealous guy, but the creativity projects that you're in. Oh, they're like, so cool. All right. So I first I want to know you know, when you how do you get involved in this project? And then how did you make sure that what is on film? I know there's other writers and a whole cast of amazing people that are helping bring this to life. Make sure that it reflects exactly kind of what was going on and what you've seen in your whole experience and live in Madison Park and everything else. Well, say I guess how I got to I was not involved with the bear from day one. Right. I got to know Chris store who's the creator of the bear. Awesome. Awesome guy. That's cool. Unbelievably creative. And by the way, one of the most remarkable leaders, like the way that every single person regardless of position on that show is treated and how they all feel such a genuine sense of ownership and the product as a whole. And I want to share one thing they did in a moment to reinforce that. But they did the first season all of a sudden at this point, I've gotten to know him a little bit and he came to the release party for unreasonable hospitality, like the dinner that I had when the book first came out. Then season two is about like three months from coming out and he emails me and they were doing all the editing in Brooklyn. It's like, Hey, can you come out to our offices some point in the next couple of weeks? I want to show you something. I was like, yeah, so I go out and they show me episode seven of season two. It's called forks. And the entire episode is effectively right out of my book. Okay. And it's this beautiful episode literally lines of text. There's things in the script that are verbatim what was in the book and this whole story. My book has a famous story about a hot dog and it's reimagined as a deep dish pizza in the episode. Yeah, I want you to tell them, tell them real quick the hot dog. Yes, they need they need to hear it. It's too good. So the hot dog story. It's one of the stickiest out of the book. And by the way, it's an example of why stories make ideas stick. Yeah. That happened with me in the restaurant as we were really trying to figure out what unreasonable hospitality meant. I'd written it down because I knew there was something in that approach, but didn't yet understand how it would be brought to life. I mean, you wrote the words down. I wrote the words down. I want to be unreasonable and pursuit of hospitality. Great. And you have in your managing 11th, Madison Park at the time. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Which for anybody who doesn't know is just the most amazing restaurant. And it was already like at that point we had three Michelin stars, we had all the stars, but which is just mind blowing. That was thank you. That's mind blowing. And what you were like top 20, something like that. Well, I wrote those words down when we came in 50. That's right. Of the 50 bus. Yeah. Okay. We just still like still, but that's just not how I'm like in that room. I was last place. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, one day I'm in the dining room and a busier than normal lunch service. The team is in the weeds. And so I was doing what I would always do when I was helping out the team. I was just clearing dirty plates. Mostly because my dad, one of the lessons he taught me when I was coming up, he goes, hey, the further up in the hierarchy you find yourself, when you choose to help, just do the most menial thing as often as you can. Because it's a great way to communicate to your team. That you're never going to ask them to do something you are either unwilling or incapable of doing yourself. It's a great way to show your fire as a leader. I love that. So as the meeting the higher up you go in the hierarchy. Yeah. If it is as simple as gathering up a trash can, enrolling up and tying up the bag. Just do it. Like you need to show the signal that you're not above anything. Yeah. Yeah. And you can also do it. Exactly. You're not going to ask them to do anything. Yeah. Like, hey, I'm not above it. And I can actually do it pretty well. Yeah. As I was clearing appetizers and it was this table of four. They were foodies like Europeans on vacation to New York, but just to eat at restaurants. Okay. And this was their last meal. They were headed straight to the airport from the restaurant to go back home. Okay. And while I was there, I ever heard them talking and they were just raving about their trip. They'd been to all the fancy French four-star restaurants. And now 11 Madison. But then one woman at the table jumped in and she said, yeah, but we never got to have a New York City hot dog. And it was just one of those light bulb moments from a cartoon. I went into the kitchen, dropped off the plate to ran outside of the hot dog, bought a hot dog, ran back inside, then came the hard part, convincing my fancy chef to actually serve it in our fancy restaurant. Yeah. But I asked him to trust me. Even more so, I told him it was important to me. Yeah. That is another articulation we'd use a lot. This is important to me. I want to make sure I set that aside. That's that is a big deal. Like even in relationships. Yeah. Saying those words is a different higher caliber of communication. Yeah. And so we can come back to that in a little bit. And eventually he cut the hot dog up into four perfect pieces, put one on each of the plates out of the little swish of ketchup, one a mustard, a little scoop of sourcrout, one of relish, topped it off of the micro herb to make it look fancy enough. And then before their final savory course, which at the time was our honey lavender glazed muscovy duck that had been dry aged for two weeks. As one. As one is one eats for lunch on the show Wednesday. I won yesterday. Okay. I brought out a win-the-art colored dirty water dog. Okay. And I explained I said, hey, I heard you talking. I didn't want you to go home with any regrets. Here's that New York City hot dog. And dude, they freaked out. They just lose it. I mean, at that point, I had served really fancy food. Tens of millions of dollars worth of it at some of the best restaurants in the country. Yeah. I had never seen anyone react to anything I had served. You served like the highest quality of beef seafood, the top of the top of the top. And here you give, yes. And New York just off the street hot dog and he just loses his mouth. Yeah. And you know, and it's in those moments. In so many businesses every single day, someone does something spontaneously that is brilliant. That's not what defines the company though. What defines them is if they identify that something great just happened and they slow down for long enough to figure out why it just happened. So they can put intention to the intuition. Yeah. And it was it was a few simple things it required being present. I wasn't listening. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't looking at what I needed to do next. I was just so fully focused on that table that I stopped caring about everything else. And that's why I was able to pick up on the line. Second, it required, yeah, obviously we took what we did seriously. Yeah. But as a rule, I've never taken myself that seriously. And I think far too many people in life or companies in business, we're so focused on perfecting brands that we're not focused enough on just pursuing people. We end up with these self-imposed standards that effectively disrupt our ability to give other people joy. Yeah. A hot dog is not on brand and a forced restaurant. No. But who cares when you look at how it made them feel? Right. And then and then third, like this idea that hospitality is just making other people feel seen. And the best way to do it is not to treat people like a commodity. One size fits all will only ever take you so far. It's the same reason why at Christmas, I don't buy everyone in my family the same present. I buy people individual presents based on who they are. I imagine buying your wife's the same present you did last year. Honestly, I looked at your facial expression before and it really seems like it worked. Thought I'd get it for you again. Yeah. And then reasonable hospitality. One size fits one. One size fits one. And so those three things be present. Stop taking yourself so seriously. One size fits one. And that hot dog changed everything for us. And what you do so well in the book and the book is full of these examples where you go, you could have just heard the conversation and go, "Ah, it kind of blows for that guy. I didn't get a hot dog." Okay. Next table. Instead, you said, "What if?" And built off that. And then you hired somebody specifically for creating these magical moments. Someone there is a resource to help everyone create them. Yeah. Because I think what's important is everyone on the team needs to be empowered to come up with these ideas. You just need to make it easy for them to deploy those ideas. They have them. Yeah. And by the way, I mean, it happens to us all the time in life. How many times have you seen something or thought, like, "Man, that would be really cool to do for this person. Gosh, I'm too busy." Yeah. And we hired a person under the team just so all you had to do is say, hey, Emily, can you do this? And should make it happen? I'll say my habit is, I'll say, once this is done, then I will. Like, it's easy to go. This is just a really crazy week, but after this, I'll be able to get to that. And then just funny how there's always another. Do you know, I was in, I did a talk. And in the meat and great afterwards, a guy came up, he's like, you know, we have this expression in my family and your speech really made me think of it. Never let a gracious impulse pass. Mm. And gosh, I love that. This is some good stuff. Because how many times do you have them? And when you have them, the whole idea is just do it. Yeah. And I was literally at the goodwill that weekend with my, with my kids. We call it the treasure store. The treasure store. It's pretty apt to. And basically every so often, we call it treasure store day. Yeah. We have to go up into the room and we take 10 things and we go give them to the goodwill and then they can buy one thing from the goodwill. Yeah. And Andrew, the guy, the DBC guy, when we are grown up, he loved the band's sublime. And he would literally like bust on the streets, putting sublime sobs. And we're in the treasure store and I see a sublime t-shirt in his size. As we're like an old school sublime t-shirt. And I just heard this guy say never let a gracious impulse pass. If I'm being honest, like a version of me would have seen that and been like, man, Andy would like that. And I got a buy out and then I got a put it in a box and go to the thing. And I would have just walked right past it. But this time I was like, no, I had a gracious impulse. I can't let it pass. I took off the thing and sent it to him and he was like, dude, that was the coolest gift. And that awesome. It took all of 15 minutes and probably $2. Just to have that. But just do it. And have a gracious impulse. Do it. So recognizing those gracious impulses, not just in relationship, but also in your own business of the ways you can. Business in life, yeah. I think when you, again, in the book, to me, it's like, if you ever wonder which ones wills in the store, just look for the brightest yellow one. That's the one. That's the one. That's the one to get. You need to go get it. It's like an every-lear brother. Yeah, just whatever. By the way, I would assume you loved this. I would assume you know him. I don't know him. Maybe one day of the guy who started this event of bananas. Oh, yeah, Jesse Cole. Yes. Okay. Also yellow. He is amazing, by the way. But I mean, like, that's like right up. You're kind of, he's spoken of my conference. Did he go? Okay. Well, then there you go. And I see a lot of like parallels with just their work because very, very similar to ours. Just three Michelin star restaurant and a minorly baseball team and how they kind of came closer to one another. Yeah. And I think that's just one of the many examples in which any business I think can do this. And I know you'll train a lot of the businesses when you go out, a lot of service industry folks of how can you, 'cause they need a little bit of help. They need a little bit of push. Maybe like, we just need to get some of that unreasonable to tell you that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds me of my dad and I love O'Brother Routho 'cause it's just so quotable. Yeah. And he goes, we need to get some of that reform. And so it's like, 'cause he's the other guy who's a reform candidate and they're like, "Maybe we need to get us a little reform." So that's, you know, sometimes you just, you need that push because sometimes you need somebody on the outside. For sure. Well, look at that. It's just easier you see things with fresh eyes. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Upwork. You grow, you and your business grow, not by doing more things, but by doing the right things and letting go of the rest. And I know what I struggle with sometimes in several businesses that I've begun is that delegation is a problem because I would rather, sometimes spend way too long, too many hours trying to look up how to do something or work some other platform. When I could have just gone to Upwork, Upwork has a selection of, seriously, some of the best freelancers out there for everything you could possibly want to do. I'm talking about data and analytics, software and development, marketing, business operations, people who want to do a logo or video editing or help with a brand, you name it. They're all there. And so what's so great is that instead of spending weeks of trying to research something, Upwork already has them. It has a full profile. You can see all the work they've done. You can see their portfolio is for things. I've hired people from Upwork and I have not been disappointed. So if you want the best of the best, Upwork's Business Plus gives you access to the top 1% of talent with AI powered matching that connects you with the right freelancer in under six hours. That's pretty incredible. It also handles contracts and payments all in one place, which means less admin for you, which means happier life for you as well. So thousands of businesses are already using Upwork to scale smarter. It's free to sign up and posting a job is simple. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's UPWORK.com. Upwork.com. Let's keep going. - But so we came back to the bear. - Yeah. - They asked me to go out there and they show me this episode. And literally at one point, the guy is walking, holding my book and reading it, like voraciously in the episode. And they're like, is this cool? Effectively, they asked me to go out there to say, is this cool that we used a lot of stuff from your book? And I was like, well, yeah, obviously it's cool. It's beyond cool. I'm so flattered. This is amazing. Like my book is now in one of the hottest television shows in America. And that's when they were going from the little beef stand. And they were about to open a proper restaurant. And in the same meeting, they're like, also, can you join the team and be a writer and a producer as we move into this next season? I was like, well, heck yeah. - It's here. - You know those moments where I'm like, I don't know how much you're paying me. I don't care. - My life on there. - The answer is yes. - Yeah. - Come on, wake. - And man, it is so fun. Your question was, how did I ensure that things were actually real? - Yeah. - And it's television. So it's all dramatized. - Yeah, but it's, I mean, it's very real. - But it's very real. - But it's very close as it can get to what it really is. - And I think it circles back to the culture on that show. Like, I mean, some of the actors on that show are now not only phenomenal, but also really famous. - Yeah. - That's it. - Right? And when people get really famous, oftentimes they stop being as good at listening or they don't necessarily feel the need to learn as much no one on that cast is like that. I mean, there is one episode, one of season three, "Carmy, the chef picks up a tray to bust a table in the morning." And I was like, are you cool if I'd show you the right way to do that? And he's like, yes, please. Something that simple. You just wanted to know what right looked like because if you've been in the restaurant business, like his character had been, you would know the right way to do it. Or how to expo, like I'd add to expo classes. - It's cool. - I mean, the most fun thing is I basically got to design a restaurant and never have to run it. You know, like the play, it's in the florals. And there's all these stories within the story that most people would never know this. - But yeah, I mean, how cool is that? You just get to kind of live in that creativity. So I wanna make sure that I don't, you don't leave without me asking some of these is, I know I could text you, this is too good. Of when you're thinking, the hot dog moment, and all of the other stuff in your book, I love the one with the sled. I've liked all these others. Is what made the difference is you led and empowered your team, by example, to listen. - Yes. - None of that happens without having the specific and right ear for it. Because you're not listening to the conversation, you're listening to the need. - Yes. - That is almost unspoken. - Yeah. - So it's not like the guy said, man, you know what would be great if somebody brought me a hot dog. You know what I mean? - Yeah. - And say that. - He just, and so you heard the need that wasn't even exactly spoken. - Oh, that's right. - And I feel like in conversation, and in teams, especially with customers, clients, you're having to have the right, to train your ear for the right kind of needs. And so I don't, how did you do that? Did you teach them to listen for anything? - Well, yeah, by the way, I mean, you know this better than anyone. You're listening not just with your ears. - Hmm. - Right? I think I've found that you can teach people how to do something. And you can be like, hey, if someone says this, like just go back in the conversation before you've even arrived there, like where did that thing come from? You might not have heard it, but, and where could it go next? The sledding, someone says, our kids have never seen snow before. 'Cause where does that go next? - What could it be? - What could it be? Like, I think the best experiences are when you dream of the world you wish existed. and then you invite someone else into your imagination. - That's a good one. - So like, all right, they've never seen snow. These are kids. What do kids love doing in the snow? Sletting, oh my gosh, let's go buy them sleds right now. - Yeah. - These spontaneous moments. - But then even the things that you don't hear, I mean, the stories that get celebrated the most of the book are the more over the top ones. But like, you can tell when someone's on a first date, right, the moment you go over and greet them at the table, it's pretty clear when you've done it long enough. And you can tell without having to be at the table, whether the first date is going really well, or whether they're just struggling to find their groove. You can tell when people are talking to one another, a ton, or when there's just a bit of awkward silence. Okay, so unreasonable hospitality. Doesn't mean having to buy a hot dog. It could mean, gosh, this guy is having a hard time getting a conversation going, I'm gonna go hang out with him at the table for a little bit. And I'm just gonna start talking to him, and I'm gonna try to get them laughing, and I'm gonna try to get them each to put their guards down. And then I'm gonna leave, and hopefully I've gotten them up to enough of a little bit. - Okay, I love this. - Okay, I love this. So that's what this is, my brain's going, is it's not just listening with your ears. It's also listening with your eyes. - Yeah. - Whereas every time with a customer or a coworker or somebody coming into your restaurant or somebody you're in a relationship with, it's listening with your eyes, how are they reacting? And so you have the privilege in a restaurant when you see some of the most intimate moments, you go, this date's not going well. Or somebody is fighting, you can tell it's tense. And they're having a hard time in their marriage, maybe. Or two guys who are talking about a business deal or something, and just for that brief moment, the staff is able to kind of, the waiter, the waitress are able to kind of be able to curate something to say, "Let me listen with my eyes here. What else is. " - Sometimes like, based on what's happening over there, maybe I should just stay away. - Yeah, that too. - Like they're having a really good conversation. How many times you went halfway through a story at a restaurant and someone comes over and says, "How's it going?" And you're like, "Can you just leave me alone?" - I just, I guess. - You just, we went punchline. - Yeah, the worst is when you're in serious conversation and some cheery young guy comes in and you're like, "Hey, do you like the captain?" - Yeah, but you're like, "Man, can you not see that we're hanging on by a thread right here?" - We're barely holding on. - No, just don't need a refo. You're good. - Yeah. - There's those moments too, but it's like when you can also listen with your eyes and see the reactions of other people. And how does that translate to? When you see that person who is running five minutes late and they look frantic or they look hurt or there's things going on, you can tell beneath that surface. It's not just going, "Well, you didn't say anything, but you saw it." - I mean, it's the same thing in life though. Like how many times you invite people over to your place and if you actually just take a moment in tension and just look at everyone in the room, you can pretty quickly tell the person that just feels awkward. Maybe they just don't know anyone and they're not good at starting a conversation and so they feel out of place. It is so easy to just be the person, never a little gracious impulse pass. The walk server and says, "Hey, Joe, come here. I want to introduce you to Jefferson." You guys both play the drums, right? That's unreasonable hospitality, but you just, you cared enough to identify what needed to be done and then to do something with what you saw. - Yeah. - And like, I'm just saying it exists everywhere. It's just, I'm telling you, it's so cool when you get to do that for other people. So why not just do it all the time? - Yeah, well, why not? Why don't you just do it every day? - I mean, I mean, why not just do it all the time? - I truly think the world will be just so much more fun. And I think when you can find ways to be more spontaneous, more creative, you know, like what I would often try and do is just have conversations in the most random places. Just to like, just switch it up, even if it's at like an ice cream shop. Like just, you know what? Like when I first was starting my, the new law firm, that's what I did. I would try and have a conversation with the client. I was like, you don't want to go sit in my office. Let's go. - Yeah. - Let's go sit somewhere at this. I know a lot of people do a coffee shop or like I would do a park or it's just because let me show you that if I can at least bring a little bit of 100%. - You know why I like this park? This park reminds me of this time. I was with my dad and I did this. And just to be able to share a little bit of that context of story is enough for them to trust you more than any degree they'd see on the wall in your office. - Well, and also, you just said, it makes me think of two things. One, I don't mean to talk about Andrew this much, but he's a therapist now and he doesn't do therapist in an office. He lives in Hudson Valley and there's two ways to see him. You can either go on a hike with him or you can go skiing with him. - Sking? - Yeah. - Oh my goodness. How do you-- - On the lift. - Oh, on the lift. - Okay. - And that's awesome. I'm terrified of ski lifts, but-- - So then go, you do the hike. - I'll do the hike. - You do the hike. - Yeah. - But you do cross country. But also what you're doing, you're bringing the new park, you're changing the environment. I think a lot of communication is, I mean, for me communication is about connection. And connection happens when people let their guard down and part of that is earning informality and just changing an environment into a less formal environment is a way to fast track the idea of earning informality. But the other thing you do in offering the thing about you and your dad and why you love that park is you're offering up a piece of yourself which is an invitation to them to do the same in return. We did this thing. I went to a restaurant in New York and on the menu it said, don't tell us if you're allergic to anything, we don't make substitutions in the food. I was like, I guess this is unreasonable, but not unreasonably hospitable. - Yeah, that's not kind. It almost sounds illegal. - Yeah, I guess you should be. - Yeah. - Yeah. And so I went back to the restaurant. I was like, I wanna go, I wanna run hard in the opposite direction about, obviously we asked about allergies. But this is a tasting menu. Certain people don't like certain things. So I was like, I wanna spend the next month coming up with endless permutations of everything we serve so that at the beginning of the meal, we can say, are you allergic to anything? Also, is there just anything you don't like or anything you're not in the mood to eat tonight? Let us know and we'll make sure you don't see it. - That's a great one. But here's the thing, we started it. And by the way, it took a long time and it was expensive because-- - Took a long time for work. - To redesign an entire menu. - Oh. - 'Cause if you have chicken that's served with mushrooms, and someone doesn't like mushrooms, it's not a good experience just to remove the mushrooms. - Oh. - So now you have to have an entirely different chicken dish to serve them. - Yeah, yeah. - But it was important to me. And so we did all this work and then we started at day one. No one told us a single thing. They didn't like day two. No one told us a single thing they didn't like. So now we're just throwing away food that we could prep. - Right, right. - And I was like, what is going on? And so I took a station. Meaning I was a waiter on day three or four. 'Cause sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to actually just get in there yourself. And again, first table, second table, third table. No one's telling me anything. And I was like, I wonder if it's this, which is this was like Anthony Bourdain and his show. And there are all these shows about people traveling around the world eating weird stuff. I was like, maybe people just don't think it's cool to not like stuff. It's their embarrassed. - My son's really cool. (laughing) - He's just straight butter noodles man. I got really good at eating. - By the way, that's a real experience from most of us right now. - Sure, but that's what you go. Maybe that's based on the comfortable. - Well, so the next table I went over I said, is there anything in all you don't like? And they're like, no, I was like, I tell you something. I really don't like oysters. And I really don't like sear chum. I was like, you didn't ask. I just felt the need to share. And they're like, you know what? I actually don't like beets. And I don't like whatever they said. And all I needed to do was tell them something I didn't like. - Right. - And then they were like, oh wait, this is a safe space to talk about not liking stuff. I'm not saying that not liking oysters is a display of profound vulnerability. (laughs) - Right, right. - But just opening up about something - Yeah. - Gave them permission to do the same in return. - And it's vulnerability. - It's vulnerability. And that's you gave, when you're saying, I like this park because of this, I was like, oh, we can actually connect on more of a human level. - Right, all of a sudden it's that's, it has nothing to do about degree or experience. And it ends up that, I mean, that's just one element of many that they care about. You can see a lot of people could have experience. - I don't know. - It's all the different stuff that they could, you can have of what's your personality. And I think that's awesome. I mean, to, - And then by the way, that person shares something with you about their dad. And then you go and you win the case. And a week later they get a little note from you acknowledging that about their dad. And maybe he said his dad was a big Dallas Cowboys fan and so you put in a little Dallas Cowboys baseball time. - I say what a pleasure it was to work with you. - Exactly, just as little bitty touch points. - And they're gonna remember that Dallas Cowboys hat, more than they're gonna remember the smart way that you argued their case in the courtroom. - This unreasonable hospitality field guide, I'm so jealous of it. I'm gonna keep telling you that. One, it is-- - Thank you, by the way. - Yeah, absolutely. Let me tell you why I love this thing. I like your book, "Unreserved Hospitality." It's great. The, it really is. It's also having written self-help nonfiction book, and this is kind of in the same category. What makes this so different is, it's kind of like, as soon as you get it, it feels like it's a, I was in Cubs' counts. - Yeah. - And so it's very much a field guide like this. And it's like, it kind of looks like I should be learning how to like build a fire or like some, like certain types of, you know, overhand knots. But I can see, I wish I had had this when I had the restaurant 'cause one, it's super colorful. So you did a really good job of making it to where you want to read through it. The illustrations are really cool. Things change. It doesn't look like it's just ho-hum. And so the design of it is really cool. And that's probably just like my brand, like self. - I wanted so badly for a workbook about hospitality to itself be hospitable and not feel like work. And so the designer is this guy named Don Clark, who has literally worked with Pixar and NASA and Lego. And I convinced him to do this with me. - If I, I'm telling you, if there's anybody that I could just freaky Friday, you know, saying that just straight, straight here, life, man, that's what I would probably do. Like this one that I really, really like, okay. That I had bookmarked. So you have, why is Joe struggling? And this is like a decision tree. And so I thought, oh my gosh, how many Joe's do we know? Of like somebody on my team is struggling with something. And then you have this tree of Joe struggling because he doesn't care and he's not trying. Like that's rarely the case. But it's so easy to think they just don't care. In relationship, it's easy to first thing to say is we just don't care. - Yes, okay. - And that's never the truth. Well, rarely, if ever. Joe is trying to still not succeed. You have all these like different ways of, if it is true, they struggling because he doesn't care. Fire Joe's fastest as you possibly can. - Yeah, right. - If that's really, yeah. - If that's actually the reason, just fire him. - But is Joe is trying to not succeed? - Yes. - Then it's all these like, is it training? Is it too much too fast? Is something else going on? Is like listening with your eyes kind of thing. And I, when I first looked at this, I was like, this is so cool. Like, do you know if they're in the right role, it talks to all about on specifically what you had mentioned a minute ago of your rules for criticism. How do you have these teams together? A lot of the things that you and I covered. And so when I, I look at this, one, I'm super jealous of it. Number two is, you're gonna help so many people with this thing. - Oh, man. - You really, really are. And it's not at all for just restaurants. And here I am sitting with somebody who was part of the number one restaurant in the entire world. I've never been one day, I'm gonna go. I've never been one day. I mean, that's different now, but you gotta go just to a little extra level. - But I also, I love, I am a foodie. I just have kids, you know what I'm saying? And so it's like, there's only so many places. Like we can go when we have kids, 'cause it's usually, okay, where's a, let me go Italian place, 'cause I know they have noodles. And I'm talking to my kids. - I took my kids to Anon Out Burger here. And I was like, all right, this is great. I love Anon Out Burger. My kids are gonna love Anon Out Burger. Like this can be the connective tissue and our culinary relationship. - Anon Out Burger. - And we get there in my three-year-olds, like, can we get them McDonald's? - Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. I was like, yeah. I was like, guys, why? Why are you doing this today? - So back in our small town, hometown, right in front of the Walmart is a Chili's. And so, you know, how you grew up thinking certain places, mine was Olive Garden. I thought it was like the fanciest of the fanciest. And so my, we were in the car in the Uber and we're trying to find a place. And my son was like, I got an idea. You don't wanna go, Chili? I was like, he was like, that's him. Like the top of the line and we're like, well, if we see one and so now, if my daughter just raised, if she sees a Chili, she's like, so that's just kind of become like also McDonald's is just like that. - It really is. We love it. We love it. I want to, this is why I also am really cool about these. And it's really cool when you come across somebody's work and it makes you go like, ah, I really wanna just like redo everything I've ever done. You know, like you just kind of get that inspiration. - Yeah. - So it's like this. This is just, I'm reading in the middle of something. It just goes, go back to your mission statement. What three strategies could you focus on right now? And then it just like has all the spaces for it. And then it goes right into what might a strategic planning meaning look like for you? And just like you, it's banger after banger of who's gonna be in charge of it? How are you gonna do there? Where are you gathered? Like the way that you have, you talk about pray circles. What, how do you celebrate top performers? I'm gonna use this myself. It's just super, super cool. And I can, this is the kind of stuff that I'm nerd out about secretly. I just like, this is so cool. - I don't think we're the same. When I recorded my audio book for the first book. - Yeah. - And then you remember doing this, right? You record it all and then you go away. - Yeah. - Like a month later you have to go back to do pickups. - Yes. - And the credits and that's it. In the month between recording it and doing pickups in the credits, I listened to Green Lights, Maconna his book on audio. - I haven't listened on audio. - Dude, there's just a masterful audio book performance. And I listened to that, I was like, gosh. I wish I had listened to this before I recorded it. - Before I did it. - And so I went and did the pickups. And he just does so many creative things and how he delivers the material. And I was like, I gotta do something. And meanwhile, I had already started the practice of collecting observations when I was writing the book and I didn't want it to stop and so on my phone. There's just a bunch of new things that I'd observations, ideas, insights and the book was done. So we get to the end of doing all the pickups and the credits. And I said to the producer, I was like, hey, keep rolling. I want to add something after the credits. And he's like, well, you're not allowed to do that. And I was like, just keep rolling. And so I said, hey, to whoever makes the decision about whether or not there's allowed to be bonus material after the credits, this is important to me. And if you've read the book, you know what that means. My cell phone number is this. Call me if you want to have a conversation about it. And I just did this whole Easter egg. And basically I was like, hey, you still there? - Yeah. - Me too. And did this whole Easter egg at the end of the audiobook. And it was just inspired by listening to someone else's work, being jealous, wishing I could do it all over again. It's saying, like, I can't, but I can at least do this. - But that comes to from like, what's the takeaway? Is expose yourself to creativity. Like expose yourself to, there's some people who go, you know, there's the downside of reading too many self help and whatever. And I agree, you can have too much if you're not acting on it, but you have to expose yourself to different mediums, different like, there's a reason why the color world has a spectrum like that you have to have spectrum - 100%. - And diversity in your life. Like there would even in investments, like you don't wanna just go with one, like, it's, you always have fun. - Exactly. And so it's the same thing of how do you, you hear that from Matthew McConaughey. And you go, you know what? I'm gonna add a little bit of spectrum. And so, and that tends into something else. And then you have, because you've written this book, here you are doing stuff with the bear, you're like designing a stadium. You're doing like, - We're doing lots of fun stuff. - I'm telling you, and your wife's amazing. Like, so you're getting to do something. - I mean, like, I think, I mean, you too. Like, we, the two of us were in a room yesterday with a bunch of really successful authors learning from other people. And gosh, I am pretty intent on never getting to a place where I don't pinch myself and I find myself in these rooms because I'm just filled with gratitude for the experiences that I get to have. And for the people, I get to meet. - Same thing. - It's pretty amazing. - Of just how we even kind of came into place is crazy. But that's, that has to do a lot with opening yourself to a lot of different colors in the spectrum. So, man, thank you so much for sitting. - Dude, thanks for having me. - You talked with me. This thing, the field guide and responsibility field guide, you gotta get it. When does it come out? - It's April 28th. - It's gonna be a killer, man. I, as soon as I got it, I was like, "Oh, God, this is so good." For anybody wanting to ask your TZP planning to their teams and how to do it differently, it's just a step by step road map to elevating the magic and what you do with your business. Can't recommend it enough. Thanks for sitting with me. - Thanks, brother. - I brother.