How to Heal Your Attachment Style & Build Secure Relationships ft. Attachment Theory Expert Thais Gibson

The following podcast is a deer media production. Welcome to RealPod. It's your host, Victoria Garrick Brown, and this is the podcast where we hold nothing back. Oh, so we're getting deep, huh? I've really cried for 12 days straight. Why do I want to be perfect? There's nothing in my life that is perfect. Every week, I'll bring you honest, unfiltered, and eye-opening conversations to help uncover the real in all of us. I crave the type of content that you're talking about. I actually felt insecure. Oh, my God, am I going to cry? Let me just unload everything. New episodes every Wednesday leave those filters at the door, because it's time to get real. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to RealPod. I am just absolutely buzzing about this episode. Our guest today is so mesmerizing, intelligent, brilliant, compassionate, passionate also about her field of work, which is the four attachment styles and attachment theory. Joining us is Tais Gibson. She has a PhD. She is certified in over 13 modalities, including cognitive behavioral therapy, NLP, somatic processing, and trauma work. It's her scientific research, personal experience, and compassionate approach that led her to founding Gibson Integrated Attachment Theory. This episode absolutely blew my mind. We have a total heart to heart in the middle. I have a huge unlock emotionally. I want to say spiritually. I hope it's inspiring for you, and there's something that you can take from it. We are going to get a master class in attachment theory. Tais will be taking us through the four attachment styles. The definitions and personality types of all of them. She's also going to be providing accessible and efficient ways that we can all heal ourselves regardless of our specific attachment style. I learned so much it was insane, and she's going to specifically share the six paths to healing and attachment style, breaking them down into simple, actionable, everyday skillsets that you can utilize starting now. This episode dives in the understanding core wounds and relationship baggage, how to understand our own personal needs and relationships, emotion regulation techniques, effective communication strategies, and the sneaky role that the subconscious mind plays in almost every aspect of our life, and how we can start to awaken our conscious mind and let that instead be the leader and guiding force of our everyday. Once you become blown away by this episode, because I'm sure you will, as I was, please know that Tais is giving us a 20% off discount code to her personal development school, so that's a 90 day attachment healing membership, and you can access it on personaldevelopmentschool.com, and the code is pds2026 for 20% off. So once again, if you want to work with Tais in her development school, you can go to personal development school.com and use code pds2026 for 20% off her 90 day attachment healing membership. Without further ado, buckle up, get your notepad ready, get those ears ready for this episode with Tais Gibson. Tais, welcome to RealPod. I'm so excited to have you today. I'm excited to be here with you. Thank you for having me. I feel like we've just been buzzing since you walked in. We have so much to yap about. We're going to yap about all the attachment styles, which I'm so excited because I've never done an episode exclusively talking about the attachment styles and attachment theory. How did this become your passion or your focus and your practice? I think because I went through my own personal struggles growing up, I think I grew up in a household where there was just a lot of chaos. So I was a fearful avoid an attachment style, and so I had a lot of the chaos in the home growing up, a lot of those things. And eventually, honestly, to make a very long story, very short, I had a knee surgery of as an athlete as we were talking about before, and in one of my scouting ears, I had a knee surgery and got addicted to opioid. So very quickly, I think I was very sensitive growing up, internalized all the chaos and kind of trauma around me, and then took painkillers for post surgery and was like, Oh, these make life easier. This is so much better for me. And just end up seeking them out. And so really, really struggled like dark night of the soul from about 15 years old till 20 and a half and then got sober and went through this whole experience of on a daily or very regular basis, being like, Oh, I'm going to stop. This is the last time. I'm going to kick this. I'm going to stop doing this. And then you say that to yourself so frequently, and then you end up in a situation where you tell yourself all the things in the world and you don't follow through. And I think one of the hard and kind of unique difficulties of being an active addiction is that it's kind of torturous because you feel so helpless to yourself. Like you tell yourself you're going to do all these things and you don't. And so I did make it off to university, and I was always afraid of getting drug tested. And there was just so much chaos and I'm sure on the outside it maybe looked like I was holding my life together, but on the inside, like I was just having the worst time. I was really, really struggling. I kept getting in trouble and essentially I was in a psychology class, I went to school for psychology and I was like on the cost of being like, I'm dropping out. I can't do this. Like I have to leave. Like I just can't handle all of this. And somebody said to me, not even the teacher, a friend and he said, Oh, yeah, I was reading this book and like your conscious mind can't outweigh your subconscious mind. And you know, you've seen like a movie where people have this like lightning bolt moment. That was like a real life thing for me. It was like earth shattering because I think one of the hardest things for me is I was so hard on myself. And so I would say things like, well, I'm going to stop doing this. I'm going to stop using when I delete people's numbers from my phone and I get them from and I would sometimes delete them, sometimes just say it was going to delete them and you know, I just go back and keep doing the same habits. And I realized in that moment, it wasn't because I was weak or not good enough or failure, or you know, just incapable and all these mean things I was telling myself. It was that it was my subconscious mind that wanted to use and my conscious mind wanted to get sober. And so I was like, what the heck is this? And it was just it was such a relief to hear that like, okay, it's not that I'm just not capable of anything. It's like, there's more to this story. So at that point, I tried in patient rehab in the summer between semesters. I had done a patient rehab on a couple of occasions I had into A meetings, any meetings, the whole gamut. And I started being like, okay, nobody's talking about the subconscious mind, let me learn about it. So I didn't like have this really easy road after that to sobriety. It still took me a couple of years of like on and off and figuring things out. But I really got into learning how to rewire the subconscious mind. And it was so healing for me and so life changing that at like 21 here, I am sober and I'm telling everybody who will listen to me. And I learned your conscious mind cannot outwill or overpower your subconscious mind. So your conscious mind is your logical thinking and analytical self. Your subconscious mind is your habituated self, right? It's the warehouse or storehouse of all of your conditioning and your pattern self. And so your conscious mind is responsible for three to five percent of all of your beliefs, your thoughts, your emotions, your behaviors on a daily basis and your subconscious and unconscious, collect the layer 95 to 97. Crazy. Isn't it crazy? No, go through life, not being conscious. They're not awake. They're not. Yeah. And they're thinking, no, I am. And it's like, no, you aren't. Yeah. I'm saying the ego, dad. Exactly. And so it was so just mind blowing to me and so healing that at like 21, all my friends want to be out and like partying. And I'm like, I'm sober now trying to tell all my friends about the subconscious mind. And I had a friend of mine and he said, Hey, you know, you should probably tell us just people who are interested. And he was politely like, hey, stop reaching to me, which I was totally doing. And I was like, yeah, people need to know this. So I started putting together these free workshops. I was like, still in school. I was still like educating myself and all these things. I went on to do like 13 certifications in like you name it like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, NLP, hypnosis, just everything I could find. And kind of what addicted to learning, I guess, instead of that was like my shift. And I ended up doing a lot of these free workshops for people. And then people just come to me after and be like, Oh, do you see clients? And I'd be like, I'm 21, I'm still in school. And people would just be like, I don't care. This was a really valuable workshop, like tell me more. So I accidentally started my client practice at a young age when I was working on helping people rewire their subconscious mind, their behaviors, their triggers, regulate their nervous system, really get into a lot of that work. And then over time, I just started having people ask me more and more about relationships and end up revisiting attachment theory, which I had learned in like first year university at a very high level. And I was like, Oh my gosh, attachment theory is so cool. It's also so incomplete because if you're insecurely attached, it's like, here's your attachment style. See you later. And I was like, how do we rewire people's attachment cells? How do we change what's not working? And then I guess as I explored more, I also realized that so much of my unhealthy patterns and conditioning came from attachment trauma and childhood that I had internalized and then was playing out of my own life. And so I found it to be like the root of everything. And that's where I ended up getting really fascinated with the subject. Wow. The long story. And incredible story. The fact that you overcame an opioid addiction is incredible. Thank you so much. I mean, we see that all the time in the news. It's I think the number one addiction in America and mad respect. Anyone who's been able to get sober or kick an addiction, I mean, takes so much strength. That's amazing. And now you've turned what you've learned into helping other people, which is incredible. I love the message of turning pain into purpose. I think that that's so true for everyone in this life is how can we take an experience that was really shitty for us, grow from it, learn from it, and then make our life and the lives of other people better. Yeah. Definitely. So what is attachment theory? You can think of your attachment style. is being your subconscious set of rules that you've learned about loving connection. And I always give the analogy that when people have a different attachment cell than somebody else, it's essentially like sitting down to play a board game. And you have the rules from anopoly and I have the rules for Scrabble. And even if we want to have a really good time, we're going to get lost in confused because we have different rules for how we think the game's supposed to go. And really, we have all of these conditioned patterns from our own childhood based on our individual attachment styles. And if we don't recognize what that conditioning is or what the needs are of each attachment cell or the wounds and triggers, then we just end up in this kind of mishmash of all kinds of people communication. It gets really challenging. So originally attachment theory was formed by John Wolby and later Mary Ainsworth out of Cambridge University. And we can dive in and break down the four attachment cells and how they come about. But that's sort of the overall synopsis. I want you to repeat that initial definition because I mean, that's mind-blowing. It's our subconscious belief of how to be loved and received love. Exactly. I mean, everyone I need you to think about that. That's our subconscious belief of how we receive and give love. And I think about that in my own life. It's even hard for me right now to be like, no, there's not just one way and it's my way. Like the way that I love is the way to love. So me even sitting here, Tais listening to you and thinking, that's just my one belief. But there are thousands of other ways to give and receive love. I can already feel the resistance. Yeah. Absolutely. And what's so interesting is there's endless ways to give and receive love in so many different forms, but they're generally are very strong for patterns, for types of archetypes that they really do tend to give and receive love in certain respects. So you want to maybe go in and bring them down and give me the perfect. So our first attachment cells is securely attached style. It represents roughly 50% of the population. I find that it's really interesting because secure attachment tends to move locked up with a divorce rate. So as a general rule, you see about 50% of people get divorced and as secure attachments have actually been on the decline over the past couple of decades, and hopefully bouncing back now. But a lot of the data shows that it's been on the decline, the divorce rate has been on the incline. So they're moving, you know, in lockstep with one another. And so securely attached people, they report in relationships A, having the longest lasting relationships, but B, which I think is the most important. They report being the most fulfilled in those long lasting relationships. So they grow up in households as a general rule where they get a lot of what we call approach oriented behavior, and it seems like such a small thing, but has such a big impact where what happens is if you grow up as a child and you get a tunement and your parents are present enough with you to understand when something feels off, then they're able to notice if you're sad or distressed and they approach you, they're like, Hey, and they try to suit you. And what that actually conditions a child to come into is the belief that my emotions are worthy of being heard. It's safe to rely on people. I trust that people will be there for me. I'm worthy of love as I am on my good days and bad days, and all of these things along with the healthy communication that secure parents really foster teach a child that relationships are healthy and their valuable resource of my life. And so securely attached adults grow up to mirror that. They end up having those same types of patterns of behavior in their own relationships, because that was what was modeled to them. And so those things that that ability to be vulnerable, that ability to communicate work through things have healthy boundaries, express their needs. Those are foundational parts of a healthy secure relationship. Then we have our three insecure attachment styles, but that's the other 50% of the population give or take that fall into those paths. And if you imagine in a way along a continuum at one end of the continuum, you have the anxious attachment style, anxiously attached individuals grow up with what we call real or perceived abandonment. And I want to just take a side note here as well and say that we actually form our attachment style. That's when it's formulated. Yeah. That's when it actually forms, which is wild. Basically, when you look at these experiments that were done called the strange situation experiments, and they had what they would do is they would take young, very young children between ages of zero to two, and they would put them in a doctor's office or what looked like a doctor's office waiting room. And they would have the parent leave and they'd have a stranger come in. So now it's a stranger alone with a child and they would observe the child's behavior when how they responded to the stranger, but then they would a moment or two later have the parent return into the room after like a minute or so. And they would respond how the child responded to their own parent. And what they found is they could clearly observe people's attachments on those moments in those infants. So for example, they would see that the anxiously attached child would become very needy and anxious when the parent left. And then they would cling like crazy to the parent when they returned. They found more avoidance, dismissal of a wooden attachment cells when the parent returned. They would look away, like almost like a dog that doesn't want to eat it's food. They would just look away from their parent and they would actually try to create space and distance from their parent is if they were hurt by the parent leaving. But you know, instead minimize their attachment needs in the process. And then our fearful avoidant or disorganized attachment cells, they would be extremely like distressed when the parent would leave, but when they would return, they would kind of go towards the parent. And then they would turn and push away. And they were hot and cold and back and forth very ambivalent towards the parent. So you can originally observe children's attachment cells and I'll go back and explain the other three attachments of that are insecure, but you can originally observe a child's attachment style at a very young age. Some people who were like, oh, I don't know, I don't think my attachment style is from my childhood, you can be, you know, securely attached and then be a teenager and have it when your parents pass away and that creates this abandonment wound. And then as an adult, you're really nervous about being abandoned or attachment cells can change based on the types of relationships we have and the types of people we surround ourselves with because our attachment cells are conditioning. Whatever works, both through repetition and emotion, fires and wires, neural pathways in our brain and we have neuroplasticity and so things do change over time. So just that's sort of like sidebar and we can come back to the others to add on to that. If I can in terms of the subconscious versus the conscious mind for people listening, you know, let's talk about that situation where someone's parent passes away, tragic, very sad. You might not realize that caused a huge shift in you and you go on to live the next two, three, four, five years of your life, really afraid that anyone you love could go at any minute and that's the subconscious. So when the beginning of this episode, when we were talking about there's subconscious versus the conscious mind, that's how easy it is for subconscious mind to take over and you not to recognize that it's now affecting how you view everyone you love in your life. That's so beautifully said. And I'm really glad you said that because that's a down and down but that was so good. So anxiously attached children, they go through in childhood, they go through real or perceived abandonment. So the really obvious, the actual loss of the parent or also perceived abandonment where what's so interesting is a lot of repetition and emotion of low level trauma over a longer span of time has a very similar impact on the subconscious mind and how we get conditioned as one acute trauma does. Wow. Yeah. Because you're really firing and like, I think they need me, I'm like, no, I can't, but most people are like, wow, that makes a lot of sense. I'm like, I can't validate it. Yeah. So you can have, you know, children who, you know, a type of perceived abandonment would be that at a young age, parents are very loving, but let's say they both work all the time and travel for work and, you know, kids are left with the grandparents or babysitters. It's like, it feels like love is there when parents are there, but then love is always being taken away. That juxtaposition of love is there. Love is taken away. Love is there. Love is taken away. If that's repeated enough, that definitely creates the abandonment wounds for this individual going into their adult lives. So our anxious attachment styles, they cope with these wounds by being like, let me win people over, let me like have such a great personality and really connect with people and being very charming and lovely as adults and very sweet and charismatic. But they also sort of overdevelop their relationship to others and their ability to seek and gain approval and underdevelop their relationship to themselves because they are so busy worrying about what people think of them and getting approval that they forget about their own boundaries or their own needs. And this is kind of diving deeper into integrated attachment theory rather than just traditional attachment theory. So the neuroscience of all the wounds and different things would accumulate, but anxious attachment styles, their biggest triggers and relationships are the fear of being abandoned alone, disliked, excluded, rejected, unloved, and then unsafe, this fear of being unsafe if somebody pulls away from them. And so as adults, when these triggers come up, they behave and cope with this by clinging, by sometimes calling a lot, they have a really hard time if they didn't get a text message back, sitting still and being patient with that, they can really kind of take those things a bit personally, they panic quite frequently if they're very hypersensitive to people pulling away. And they're also the individual who wants to resolve conflict now. Like if there's a conflict, we have to talk it out. I would work with couples originally in my practice and I'd see them, you know, maybe somebody was avoidant and somebody's anxious and the avoidance, like I need a minute, we're in a conflict, they go walk away, close the door, the anxious person like comes up, opens the door, comes in. They're like, but we have to talk about it and they can sort of chase their partner around for in a house, it out a little bit, and they're so sweet and so endearing, but they don't know how to self-regulate. They don't know how to self-do exactly. Yeah. So that's sort of the synopsis of the anxious attachment style where we got anxious. Yeah. We have two left. Two more. So other side is the dismissive avoidant. They're opposite in many ways. So they grow up with a lot of childhood emotional neglect. Oftentimes people hear that and they're like, oh, the child's alone all evening by themselves at three years old. It can be really overt, really extreme neglect, but a lot of the time it's very covert neglect. So it's situations, for example, where the child, they have food on the table, structure order, they're at school on time, but the parents just aren't attuned to them. And beyond that, a lot of times the messaging the child gets about their emotions are that they're a burden. They're annoying. They don't really have room for time for it. So these types of things that you'll hear like, oh, children should be seen and not heard. Or oh, don't be a crybaby or oh, stiff upper lip. if a child cries or is sensitive, parent pushes the child away and essentially rejects and neglects that child's need for emotional connection and making those emotional beds and also children are wired for attunement. They need to feel safe. They need to feel seen. They need to feel special. And if those things are not happening, it does create attachment dysfunction in the child. So this individual who goes through that kind of conditioning at a young age adapts to this by going, okay, I'm just not going to need anybody. I'm just going to reject my needs from you right back and it gives them a sense of relief so it gets conditioned in that by not needing people, I have control and relief. And so they end up as an adult to be people who have actually built their personalities around avoiding emotional intimacy and depth of connection and vulnerability because they think that that's not going to get them anywhere because that's all of the conditioning that they've adopted over time. And so as adults, I know what is that. And they get such a bad rap too. I have a soft spot for them. But as adults, they end up very much fearing being shameful or defective as a huge wound for them. They very much have a lot of internalized shame. They're very stoic so they don't show it. But if somebody criticizes them, they very much take it to heart. They don't hear like, oh, you made a mistake. They hear like, oh, you're shameful for your behavior. That's your character. So you very much personalize criticism. They're afraid of being shameful or defective, trapped in the wrong relationship, helpless, powerless, weak, if they're vulnerable or sensitive to feeling disrespected, not good enough. And emotionally unsafe, they really struggle in a conflict. They don't like to open up. They don't really know how to resolve conflicts. So they just shut down. And a lot of their coping mechanisms and relationships as adults are that as soon as things get real, they run. And if they do make it on and don't run, they pull away emotionally and they shut down. And in conflicts, they stonewall while the anxious is trying to resolve things immediately, the dismissive avoidance is like, let me just avoid it and kind of dismiss it and sleep it under the rug a little bit. And they have a really hard time being open and vulnerable about their feelings. So that's the dismissive avoidance. And then the last attachment style is the fear of avoidance or disorganized in a way. They're sometimes the, they've actually been referred to as the anxious avoidance because they have this anxious and avoidance side to their personality. But they grew up with their overarching theme being bigger tea trauma, like emotional chaos. And so examples would be things like a parent who's an alcoholic, a parent or parents who are in active addiction, a parent with narcissistic personality disorder where one day you're getting love bombs and other day you're getting guilt trip to manipulated and very harshly criticized. Children who grew up with like verbal, physical abuse. Any of these types of situations where the overarching theme is that you never know what you're going to get. And if you look at some of those circumstances, let's pretend the mother is the alcoholic, you know, one day the child's connecting with mom and mom said a few drinks and she's in a good mood. And it's like, oh, connection is nice. Connection is safe today. Another day, a mom had a few more drinks and she's an angry drunk and now she's being really mean and harsh and critical and you're like, oh, my gosh, love and connection is a terrible thing. This is not safe at all. And you get these repeated cycles of the closeness being good and closest being bad. So uniquely, their condition to feel like closeness is both a very good thing and a very terrifying thing. And you know, so what you see is as an anxious attachment style, they're always trying to maintain proximity. This missing avoidance, they're always trying to minimize their attachment needs as their attachment strategy and fearful avoidance end up being like, I need to predict everything. That's their attachment strategy. So they become extremely hyper vigilant. They notice like any shift or change in micro expressions, body language, tone of voice, they lock it like crazy. And they end up always sort of trying to be two steps ahead and on guard. And they're just very hyper vigilant and then they're the partners as adults who have a lot of those anxious wounds, those fears of abandonment and being alone and unloved. And also the avoidant wounds, fears of being trapped or helpless and they have a big betrayal wound because they don't trust the environment or people in it. And then as adults, they're very hot and cold. They're like, come get close, come get close and you get closer, like get back. Wow. And so they're very hot and cold and move back and forth and those are a forward attachment. Wow. First of all, you're a wealth of knowledge. Thank you. Madly impressive. And badass. I'm sure like everyone listening, we're all trying to diagnose ourselves. I feel grateful to say I'm pretty sure my husband is very securely attached. He is so just well bolted in his brain. I definitely think I'm securely attached with probably a little splash of anxious attachment as well. It's kind of insane how we have so many different types of personalities and people yet for really specific types of attachment. Yeah. And like you said, which is I'm so glad you said that like it's a continuum, right? So I like that you said a splash of anxious attachment. Yeah. Sometimes people will say like, Oh, anxious edges or anxious corners or you know, things like that. But you're exactly right. Somebody won't just be like, Okay, I'm suddenly a 10 out of 10 anxious or I'm not at all. Like it's it's in a continuum. So it's your point for anybody else who's listening. Like you might see, Oh, yeah, I'm fearful of waiting. But I lean a little even more dismissive for when I lean a little more anxious or anxious and sometimes I can be a little hot and cold too. So so you'll see it in this range and along that continuum. What's hopeful about this and please tell me if you agree is that these things are coachable. We can very much grow and heal and work our way out of them. And even as you were talking, I was thinking about how I definitely used to be someone who needed to have the conversation and make sure we were all good. And it was tied up with a bow. And that's something I've really had to work on and expose myself to is just not having that perfect button up and it's made my life so much better to not do that. And so I say that as an example of like you can be one way, almost programmed or subconscious, and gain the consciousness and then actively work to undo the pattern. Yes. That's like the body of work that we do. So that is the most important thing. And I really think that what you know attachment styles and attachment theory really became a lot more mainstream in the last few years. And sometimes I see things. I'm like, oh, that's so great. I'm so glad. But then the downside is that sometimes people are like, Oh, I'm just this attachment style. And they come to identify with the label and they don't actually end up moving through it and being like, Okay, well, what do I do about this? What do they do? I'm just an avoidant. Okay. That's just that's not how healthy relationship works. We've got to each go halfway, exactly. And so we really focus on five major pillars will really six, but the six one sort of a bonus of rewiring. So you're not born with your attachment style that's conditioned into you even if at a very young age, we are always being reconditioned by things in our environment. That's why you hear these things like you're the self of the five people you spend the most time around. It's because like we're taking on traits and conditions from from one another, that's the norm for everybody. And so there's really six pillars, five, five and a bonus of how to rewire your attachment style. I'll go through them at a very high level, but the first one is rewiring your triggers. Like those ideas that, Oh, I'm going to be abandoned or seen as not good enough or alone or disliked all of those things, you're not born with them. So they get conditioned into you through repetition and emotion over time and when we become aware of them, I can even go into tools later, but I can share a tool for how to rewire those triggers, which is one of the most important things we'll ever do because I always say to people like your triggers are sort of your personal version of the bear in the woods. If you imagine that you go into the woods tomorrow and you see a bear and the bear chases you and thank goodness you're safe. But if you've to go back into the woods the next day, your mind is like, you hear the trees move in the wind and you're like, the bear is coming like you're bracing for the bear. And that's because you're in a position where literally your mind is wired to hang onto negative things more than positive. You don't like tell your friends after a bear chased you, my gosh, when the bear was chasing me, I saw this beautiful flower. And I saw you like, you remember the bear and it's teeth, right? You don't remember other things around it. And so we hang onto negative things more than positive. And we re-project them back out onto our world as a way to keep ourselves safe. And so this is what ends up happening for individuals is they are constantly projecting these things that they felt in their childhood or in past relationships or past experiences onto their present relationships or experiences. And then that's not a predator prey situation. So that's helpful if you're being chased by a bear, but it's not really helpful if those things are coming up into your daily life. It makes me think of a classic example. I know it's been a while since the holidays, but I saw so many TikToks this Christmas season of, oh, I'm back home and I'm the worst version of myself. Why does this always happen? Or like, I was so excited to see my parents, but now that I'm with them, I'm just so annoyed and I want to leave. And I saw all these videos and all these comments like, this happens to me too and I don't know why. And I think it has to do with this emotional patterning you're describing where if you go home and your mom says to you, oh, do you mind putting that in the dishwasher? Okay. If your roommate said to you, do you mind putting that in the dishwasher? You might think, oh, yeah, no problem. Just forgot I was sending a text putting in the dishwasher. When your mom says you mind putting that in the dishwasher, it's, I never do anything right. She always is analyzing me because you're bringing into that instance 20 years of the issues between you and your mom or whoever this person is and not realizing it, right? Is what you're describing 100 percent of the moment bringing it in. And I think all these people I saw in TikTok, I just wanted to like try to brain jump them each like six paragraphs of being like, you're, that's your emotional patterning. And I'm not saying that just because I know that I handle things well when I'm back with my family too, but it's good to be aware of it. Yeah, that's so beautifully said and such a good example. And there's an old quote by Ram Doss and he says, if you think you're enlightened, go spend a weekend with your family. Totally. That always made me laugh, but they're going to show you your stuff, right? And also those things are rewireable. So like even if you have 20 years of history, really it boils down to a wound. So like let's say you didn't put yourself in the dishwasher and they tell you, maybe you feel like my mother's always been controlling. I feel trapped. You can rewire that wound. So it's not what gets projected back out into that situation. We can go into tools later to do that if you'd like to, but it's a wound. But then it's also neat. So that's actually your second pillar of healing, which is that we heal as individuals when we learn our own needs. And if you've ever, you know, Dr. Gabbermatte, so he has a quote and he says, trauma are the things that happen to us that you have. shouldn't have happened, which is obvious abuse, things like that, but also trauma are the things that didn't happen to us that should have happened to it. And so that's things like, let's look at the dismissive of when they ideally should have gotten emotional attunement and connection and consistency in that way and their childhood and they didn't and that's traumatic. So what happened is our second pillar of healing is that we look at our greatest unmet needs from our childhood and what we're really looking for and seeking for and relationships and we learn to give those to ourselves consistently across time through repetition and emotion because that fires and wires that void within us with new neural pathways where we actually feel like, okay, we're satiated in terms of these needs. So for example, for a fearful avoidant, they really did not get a sense of emotional safety growing up. A huge part of their healing is to learn to create emotional safety in their own life, determine what that looks like for them, usually that entails having healthy boundaries, doing how to communicate openly and assert themselves, not taking on so much all the time, making sure that they're surrounding themselves with healthy people. Whatever that looks like, it's like, okay, well, we have to actually practice this for at least 21 days through repetition and emotion because through 21 days we build stronger neural pathways and thus stronger neural networks. So pillar two is to learn what your attachment cells needs are and then to start meeting them consistently in the relationship to yourself first, not through other people, not outsourcing them first, we can do that later, but that's the first sort of piece that I want to quickly pause here, Tyce, you can give me another example because I think when we do here, you can give yourself everything you're seeking, right? We see that message a lot in life. It's like, you can give yourself the love you see, you can give yourself the validation you seek. Sometimes for me, I'm like, how exactly? Because it can feel a little uncomfortable, like am I supposed to be writing down on a piece of paper, all these things to validate myself? If we use this example of me wanting max to be in bed with me when I go to sleep, because then I can finally turn off. I'm like, he's next to me, we're here, I can rest. You know, what could I be giving myself tonight when I go to bed if he decides to stay up and watch a show for an extra hour? Okay, love this question. We can break down by attachment cell in terms of their needs and we can come back to that, but let me just ask you that exact question. So when max is there, when he's there with you and he's present with you in bed, what does that actually meet for you in terms of need? And just say anything that comes to mind and I'll help you step through it. I think it's comfort. I like to cuddle. I like to feel like the warmth of his body. He's next to me. I feel like when he's fully off, I can give myself permission to be fully off. I think there's this safety too of like, I'm a classic like every day. I have an intrusive thought about someone I love dying. Like the other night, he was out late doing something and I just couldn't fall asleep until I knew he was like in the car driving home. Yeah. And so there's also certainty there, the knowing, right? The knowing that he's safe, the knowing that everything's going to be okay. Does that resonate with you as well? Yeah, definitely. So we have comfort. We have safety. We have certainty. Have you ever done nervous system regulation work before? What is it? Have you heard of a polyvegal theory? You're intentionally trying to practice training your body to move from fighter flight mode into parasympathetic mode, which is like rest and digest mode. No, but I should have done that in college. I really should. Do you find that maybe throughout the week, sometimes you feel a little bit dysregulated like that and have our time coming back to center with yourself if he's not there? No, I can swim in both ponds. Like he also has gone every single weekend in the fall because he's a sports broadcaster. So I mean, I go 18 weekends and I write without my husband here and like, I have fun and I live my life. Like if he's home, I can be like, I'm high maintenance, you come to bed with me, I want you here. And then also I totally tolerate and support him being gone every weekend. Okay. Yeah. You don't feel like you're in a sense of thought. That's why it's an adash. When you said it for some thoughts about it, somebody dying, but I was like, okay, I don't like hyperventilating. I can talk myself off the legs. Okay. Make my face your make myself saying it's like, what do you want to do today? You know, you have comfort, safety, certainty, or basically big things. So how you actually meet those for yourself and we actually have in our programs like a list of all the common needs and how to meet them for yourself because you're right. That's a big thing. But how you meet them for yourself is in terms of comfort and safety, one of the best things to do is practice regulating your nervous system so that it's the thing you can do it will. So when you do feel a little bit of that unease, even if it's small. So that's through like breathwork, meditation, mindfulness practices, anything that's actually helping you act like you're in Paris and pathetic nervous system mode. And that just helps you to like calm down. It's actually a third pillar of healing your attachment. So, but also certainty. Like having certainty, for example, you might say, okay, and like you sound like you've a very secure husband and a beautiful relationship. But let's say that somebody doesn't have that security or stability or certainty in that way. And they feel like there's this massive void of that need. Well, we want to start by being like, how can we get certainty in our lives in multiple ways. And a lot of times that's through order, through structure, that could be that if you have, you know, you haven't talked to your husband, you have a ritual or a bedtime or actual time where you're like, we talk, we face time at this time when you're away. And that way you still have this sense of structure and certainty and order in your life. And usually people who feel like there's this lack of comfort or safety, well, it's like, well, you have to really beef that up before you go to sleep. And that might be you put on cozy pajamas and wrap yourself and blanket and put on some candles. And you're your favorite TV show or music, but it's things that are actually bringing that sense of comfort and safety. And then certainty is a lot more related to order and structure. Something else that comes to mind as you list these strategies is the power of getting things out of your brain and onto paper or like in conversation has alleviated so much stress for me. I actually just came out with a planner. It's called booked in balance and I have these pages that say declutter your mind. And I've been going to them in times of feeling like anxious or worried about something. I write the date like 113. I brain dump stress right now because blah, blah, blah, and then I'm suddenly like, wow, I feel so much better. It's on paper. It exists. So now I'm not like scared that I'm going to forget about this thing that I perceive is important. But now that it's out of my brain, I kind of just move on. And then at the end of the week, I'm like, oh my god, I can't believe four days ago, I was worried about this thing. I totally forgot. Good for you. That's beautiful. So can I ask you a question? I'm kind of like going down your rabbit hole for a second. But when you feel that sense of like, oh, he's going to be back. He's going to come to bed when he wants. When you actually feel that anxiety, what are you making that lack of control or not him not being in bed? What do you make it mean about you or what are you afraid will happen? I don't know the exact answer, but something I think of is I definitely struggle to enjoy a moment unless I have everything the way I wanted in that moment. It's my perfectionism. So like, if it's not like my ideal bedtime would be going to bed at the same time as my husband. So if I can't have it that way, that's like that in itself is difficult. So I don't have things the way that I need. And what do I make that mean or what I'm afraid happens that? Well, I think it's like I view every situation or relationship or anything has like a metric of like zero to it being exactly the way I want it. And so if it's not exactly the way I want it, I feel like maybe it's a failure in some sense, which is crazy. We're talking about a bedtime thing, but I definitely have been really open about perfectionism being super high achieving, like things I'm trying to work on and unlearn. I carry so much, it's got to be the best, it can possibly be. Okay, good. And I'm just going to out pull you one more because I just want to get the ball and ring of the ladder. So if it's not everything that I want, what do I make that mean or what am I afraid happens is a worst case scenario. I don't achieve if I'm not perfect if things aren't exactly the way I need them to be, what's the worst fear or outcome? Being not good enough. Okay. And is that does that resonate? Like, okay, then I feel not good enough? I'm so glad you're taking me to this place because this is where I get stuck. Yeah. Like, if you think you know, girl, tell me, like, well, you have to arrive. I know where you're leading me and I want to walk down this hallway and I, I don't know. I'm not suppressing. Does it feel a little bit like there's emotionally unsafe, like an emotional and safety? I think it, I almost feel like it leaves more like an identity thing. Like, that's just me. So if it's not that way, who am I? Good. Okay. And if I don't know who I am, what do I make that mean or what am I afraid to happen? If I don't know who I am, I'm not together. I think there's a fear of like, I don't know, missing the boat or a fear of like missing the mark and not having a second chance to do it differently. Okay. Good. And is there, and is that out of control piece not resonate? The, then I feel like I just don't have control. I don't get to try again or I don't have it the way that I want it to be. Yes. I definitely am controlling. Like I like to control things and I have very high specific expectations for a lot of things. Yeah. People who have an out of control wound don't necessarily control their people though. They like to control themselves. Yeah. I definitely control their own life. Yeah. I definitely don't feel like I'm definitely pretty good at being like mindful with you. Yeah. Whatever they do, they do. Yeah. So what resonates the most out of that? It was it the out of control or feeling helpless or feeling like you are not good enough? I don't know. I feel so connected to my external identity and the perception of me that I think there's definitely a fear or a not knowing of like, if none of that mattered and I didn't have to do that, like who would I be? Okay. So this like emptiness, this like sense of without that. Like I would have so much uncertainty. Yeah. Oh wow. We're getting it. Okay. I'm starting to cry. So we're getting it. No, no, it's okay. I love this shit. Like my followers, the listeners are going to be like, so if you stay there for just a second. So in that uncertainty, that feeling of uncertainty, what is that? I don't know. I just created such an identity for myself. It's very hard for myself to think about who I actually am. And is it a sense of unworthiness without that? Definitely. Okay, unworthiness. So that's like, and that can be a really big wound that comes from a lot of pressure. We can backtrack it now. Do you see a lot of behavior? in your life driven maybe by that fear of being unworthy. So are there a lot of decisions you make or choices you make or ways that you show up in the world that are because you feel this pressure to earn your worth in the background? I mean, for sure. When we can go back to when you walked in and said, "Oh, you're on the Forbes student or 30 list?" And I'm like, "Yeah," and that was on accident. Like, I had that magazine like 10 years prior and was like, "I'm gonna get on that list." Yeah, I don't know. And do you find that you earn your worth a lot in relationships sometimes? Like, you kind of over give all the time and you try to make sure that everybody around you feels like you're showing up enough and doing enough and there's this sort of like background pressure you put on yourself? Definitely. I noticed recently like we just went on a trip with our two best friends. It was crazy I had this thought to myself. I was like, "Wow, like they really want to spend like that time like with me." And that's like crazy because it's like my best friend of 20 years. Like, I know she loves me like no matter anything but I still have this thought in my brain of like, "Wow, she likes me." Yeah, you know? That is like 100% the "I am unworthy" part won. Because there's this feeling of like, "I'm left for what I do and how I show up." And like, maybe this fear that if I couldn't do all that, would people even still care about me? Or would they show up for me back? Yeah. Okay, so the reason I asked you is because I'm going to give you an exercise to rewire it. So you don't have to feel like this. Because people with a big unworthiness could usually see that they put a lot of pressure on themselves. They 100% have this, wait, people want to be with me just as I am. Even if I'm not performing or doing or achieving or showing up and it is to feel that sort of void. You kind of described it earlier that like, you didn't say emptiness, but you alluded to this sort of like, "Oh my god, without all of these things, who would I be?" Like that kind of emptiness behind that. It's so weird though to think that I would sit here and be like, "I have an unworthiness wound." Because I guess when I say, "I feel worthy," and like, "Is that coming from the achiever of me?" That's the side of me that of course feels worthy. If you said, "Why am I worthy?" I feel like I would answer it with a list of accomplishments. Therefore, meaning, "I believe that accomplishing these things means I'm worthy." Exactly. A true absence of an unworthiness wound actually is rooted in that I am worthy as I am, whether I'm good, whether I'm having a bad day, whether I messed everything up the last six months of my life, whether I am just worthy of love in my existence. And it's, to be honest, it's a little bit of a lonely road in a way because deep, deep down, there's this background pressure of earning love, earning your worth, earning, earning your. And it makes you usually somebody who's highly successful and they're going to be lots of these positive manifestations of it. But you ideally want to be able to still have all those attributes and still feel worthy of love if you just lost your job or something went down the toilet or it was a hard time. So are you comfortable if I just share with you at a high level and exercise to combat it? Please do. Okay. Wow, I feel like sobbing right now. I'm so sorry. No, it's okay. It's a good thing. No, it's a good thing. It's important for me to think about it. Before we go into the ashes, one of the best things too is people who really build. This is part of the healing work. As people who build this deep sense of self-worth, they are really good at giving them love for no reason. So not like rewarding themselves when they have an accomplishment. But like, let's say you made a mistake. Being like, oh, I'm going to. That was a hard day. I have to double down and take care of myself now. Rather than sometimes it's like, oh, I should avoid myself or numb out or distract myself or beat myself up. Like, there's this deeper sense of, oh, it's okay to make a mistake. I'm a human being. I'm going to mess up sometimes that's okay. That's perfectly fine and acceptable. And so, and sort of the absence of pressure, right? Like, how would you feel if you had somebody following you around all day who put as much pressure on you as you sometimes put on yourself? You might be like, all right. Like, give me a second here, you know? So how we heal this, which is really powerful, is you have one understand first. You're not born feeling like that. You don't come under the womb feeling like that. So you can actually rewire it. And it's a 21 day exercise. It takes two to three minutes a super short. There's three steps. Number one, what's the opposite of the wound? I am worthy, pretty easy. Number two, the wound is subconscious. Okay, nobody consciously feels like this. Almost like how you set a second to go. I consciously feel worthy. But subconsciously, you could see that there is a motion there, right? And there is some deep emotional storage there. And so, in that moment, you want to be able to say, okay, I have to speak to my subconscious mind. Now, your conscious mind speaks in language. Your subconscious speaks in emotions and imagery. So your subconscious mind, in other words, doesn't hear language. So I'm not a big believer in affirmations, because you're just using your conscious mind to speak your conscious mind. But nobody wakes up consciously and says, I'm going to feel like I'm unworthy. So true that the subconscious mind doesn't understand language. I love that you just said that. Yeah. Actually, I heard Tola, are you familiar with this word? I've read so many. I love his books. But one of his books says something about how, do you really think you could express the feelings you feel with the alphabet we've created and the vowels and the consonants? Like, we created a set of rules to talk to each other. Do you really think that those words could ever describe what it is to be, to just be a human? I know. And so I love that. I love the way that you said it, because it was way more easy to understand the subconscious mind doesn't understand language. Yeah, and I actually love your examples. So I always tell people the analogy. I'm like, okay, whatever you do, I do not think of the pink elephant. And like, your conscious mind here is do not, but your subconscious flushes the pink element. But yours is so I love that. That's so true. Such a beautiful share. And so we have to speak to the subconscious mind because that's where the wound is. And so we have to speak in emotions and imagery. That's how our subconscious takes the information. So what we do and how you can really heal the unworthy core wound, is what you do is you start by writing down 10 things about you that are worthy. Not because you achieved it, not because you showed up, not because you did something good or beneficial through society's eyes, but because of who you are. Because worthiness, when you've a wound, you achieve your worth through doing things. That goes away from actually feeling worthy. Worthiness is seeing yourself as worthy as a human, behind all the achievements, behind everything else. And so what we start by doing is you come up with 10 things about you that are worthy in your truth. Not when you're people pleasing, not when everybody's watching, but like literally you're probably just somebody who's truly empathetic. You're clearly somebody who loves to learn and grow. Like you write these things about yourself. When no one's watching, you're still that person, not for achievement, not for the world, but for you. Those are your personal characteristics. So you write 10 characteristics about you that are very worthy. But if you saw them in somebody else, you would appreciate those as just traits about them in their personality, irrespective of what they were doing in their behaviors. And then you write specific examples of times you showed up this way. Because when you give specific examples or memory, all memories are containers of emotions and imagery. So every time somebody has an old memory, if it's your favorite childhood memory, and you're like, well, I'm playing on the slide with my friends at the playground. You see the images of the slide. And we've all seen people when they tell old stories. They smile or they laugh. So we're saying, okay, these are the characteristics that make me worthy as a human being. Who I am, not my actions or behaviors. And then times I showed up this way. So you see and feel about that. So you're actually speaking to your subconscious mind in images and emotion. And then step three, we record it down. So you ideally record yourself saying it out loud. And you listen back for 21 days in a suggestible state. So when your brain's producing more alpha brainwaves, first hour you wake up or last hour before you go to bed or after a meditation. Our brain produces a lot of alpha brainwaves. It means our subconscious mind is more open to suggestion or taking in information. And you listen back to takes two to three minutes a day. And when you listen, you want to visualize those things and feel about them. And what you're doing is you're actually firing and wiring at the subconscious level, new neural networks over time. And neural pathways are like muscles. Like if you work them out, they grow and they get stronger. And they also atrophy. Like muscles do if you don't use them. So what you do is you step one. I am unworthy. I am worthy. Step two, true, beautiful characteristics about me that are worthy. And those emotional examples and images of how you showed up in those ways as a human, not for your achievements. And then step three, listen back, feel about it, visualize it. And it will actually rewire those neural pathways over time. So it's exercise. I think about that's brilliant. And there are so many great takeaways in that whether someone listening relates this specific wound or not, I think it's like brilliant how you thought about the way that you can work on the subconscious mind without just inflating the ego in the process. I do want to quickly circle back. So I think you gave two of the six things before we went on this tangent, which I love that we did. It did change the trajectory of my life. Seriously, thank you. Then I decided to listen back and to explore this wound more. But what were the other four? Yeah, so first one is rewiring our core wounds. That's the exercise to do it. At least one of the easy and simple ones. Sorry to interrupt your mind, everyone. These are the six things you can do to heal the attachment. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so you do it by your wounds that each attachment saw. Those different ones we talked about. Number two, learn to meet your own needs. So again, some of those simple things, like I'll just say some of the needs, but APs anxious attachment cells have more needs around validation, encouragement, certainty, comfort, safety. We talked about some of how to meet your needs. Yeah. And encouragement when people hear encouragement, a lot of that is like actually being able to sit down and like acknowledge three of your wins today. Ways you showed up as a person in your character. Things you're proud of because a lot of anxious attachment cells are a little critical on themselves, a little harsh on themselves. They sort of minimize their wins and magnify their mistakes a little bit. So doing those things for self is really healthy. Obviously dismissive avoidance and fearful wins have different needs as well. So each person has to meet their own needs. And then our third one is regulating our nervous system. It's such an important and pivotal part of like, actually processing our emotions. If you love our toy, one of the best exercises to do. Do you remember like when he talks about the pain body? Oh, I love that. Okay. So this is actually one of the most healing exercises that we can all do. And there's actually like a psychological scientific explanation for this. So pillar three. is regulating our nervous system and one of the best ways is to do somatic processing. So somatic processing is actually, and I'll give a quick study. There's a beautiful study that was done where they took participants, and they put them into FMRI scanners, and they watch how they would respond to really intense emotion. And they would have people share really difficult things like recall painful moments. And then they would have them describe like the events themselves. And what they would see is all this brain activity moved out of the neocortex and prefrontal cortex regions, like our logical thinking mind, and dropped into the reptilian brain, like fight or flight mode. And they saw that like people were really distressed. And of course, when we're in our reptilian version of ourselves, we're not really the best version of ourselves. Later, we're like, why did I say that big or why did I send that email or whatever it is? So they then had participants instead of telling the story, sit and start witnessing what their emotions felt like in their body and describing what the emotion was and what the accompanying sensations were. So, for example, somebody might say, okay, I feel anger. And anger feels like heat in my chest and down my arms and in my shoulders. Or I feel anxiety. It feels like, you know, a ball in my throat and butterflies in my stomach. And they would have them just focus on witnessing and labeling the sensations. And all this brain activity came back up in the prefrontal cortex regions. And they were there more, you know, processed version of themselves. And so it's called somatic processing. It's a very easy tool that we can practice. And it's very regulating for our nervous system. And it's funny because I remember reading echo, when I was reading that study. And I'm like, this is like the version of the pain body and witnessing instead of identifying with the emotion and then telling the stories that trigger us more and more. And so it's a really beautiful practice that helps regulate our nervous system. Pain body is an example of when we talked about that. Mom says, can you put this dish in the dishwasher? It's the pain body that's responding with the, I don't know, you always do this like that. So to anyone who's like, what the hell is the pain body? A pain body is just another term for that emotional patterning that surfaces in a moment. Eckhart totally just says, that's your pain body taking over. Exactly. Okay. Number four. So those are the first three and they're very much about self. It's like, rewire my own triggers, learn to meet my own needs, learn to witness my emotions and process them differently and regulate my nervous system. So those are our first three. The next three are actually about interpersonal relationships. So it's not just do it all yourself, right? That's the first step is doing a lot of that in our work. But then the next three are number four learning to have healthy boundaries. So anxious attachments are kind of boundaryless. It's miserable. Sorry, that's just so funny to me. So true. It's like, clocked. And we have to miss a boy. And this is miss a win that really extreme boundaries. So they like, they struggle to make compromises. And then fearful avoidance are like all or nothing. They're like, no boundaries, no boundaries, no boundaries, and they get mad. Then they set really intense boundaries are angry. And then they feel guilty and they go back to being boundaryless too. So they each have unique cycles. And as somebody who did this work on myself before working with thousands of people doing this, I was fearful of winning it. And I would, I could not understand boundaries for the life of me. I would be like, I get it. I've read all these books on boundaries. I've read all these research papers on boundaries. I understood intellectually what a boundary was. But like, I would never set them in real time. I would leave a situation and be like, oh, I should have felt like these three boundaries that I wouldn't do it in real time. And so we teach people how to remove their fears around boundaries first, rewire their fears. Because a lot of times we don't set boundaries because we're like, if I set a boundary, I'll be abandoned or I'll be just like people will think I'm mean or bad. Or so we first have a block subconsciously. We learned to rewire those blocks. So we're not for me. And when I was a kid, if I set a boundary, it'd be really punished like pretty strongly. So I was like, oh, if I set a boundary, I'm unsafe. And so no wonder I struggled so much, right? So you rewire the block first. And then we practice exposure work, which is kind of like titrating your boundaries over time. So that it gets embodied and you practice doing it on a daily basis, that repetition, that emotion, you're firing and wiring those neural networks until it becomes your set point. So it's not this like, I should set a boundary. I am intellectualizing you're actually wiring it in. And then our next piece is communication and our last one is behaviors. And I'm happy to dive into those. But but learning to communicate healthily and then rewiring our unhealthy behaviors, like calling a lot, texting a lot, stonewalling, raising our voices, those types of things. Wow. You are incredible. I'm so happy that anyone listening who wants to work with you is able to do that through the personal development school. And literally was this not the exact example. Like you literally just like opened this gate in my brain. I didn't even know existed. And so can you tell us more about the personal development school, the 90 day attachment healing membership, because I know all of our listeners today can use the code PDS 2026 for 20% off. Yeah. Thank you so much. And just before I do, thank you and thanks for being so vulnerable too. Like that was so brave of you to share. And of course, let me take you down the rabbit also. Thank you. So yeah, so the personal development school, that's what we do. It's all these online programs. I'm in there with our students three days a week. They can ask me any questions. And literally we go through and we go through these six pillars. We go through one at a time, rewiring your core wounds and also identifying what they are. It actually starts with an in-depth attachment assessment. So people learn what their attachment style is and it comes with like, here's your biggest wounds. Here's your biggest needs and how you can actually meet them. We have resource sheets built out for people. This is God's work. Oh, you're so sweet. Amazing. Thank you. And then we go into nervous system work and then boundaries, communication and behaviors and everything is for the subconscious mind. So it can actually get rewired as your new supplement. Wow. And what's the website they can go to to use this code, PDS 2026. Yeah. So it's personal development school dot com. Amazing. Oh, yeah. Perfect. Wow. You got that job. I don't know how to get that to me. Perfect. I was early. I've been doing this for a long time. That's amazing. Personal development school dot com. Use the code PDS 2026 for 20% off your 90 day attachment healing membership. Thank you so much. I feel like I need to sit in silence for three hours and just think about everything I learned in the best way. This was so informative educational, inspiring, hopeful, all the things. So thank you for doing this work. Thank you so much. You're amazing. And it's only just been so much fun to chat with you. Oh, you're the best. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of RealPod. If this hit home or helped you in some way, send it to a friend, a teammate, Rumi, share the love, share the realness. New episodes of RealPod come out every single Wednesday. So make sure you are subscribed to this podcast so you never miss an episode to leave a rating or review of the show. Head to iTunes and let me know what you think. I love hearing from you. Not to mention you can stay connected with RealPod throughout the week seeing behind the scenes info and sneak previews of upcoming guests by following the @RealPod account on Instagram. All information about today's show and guests will be linked in the description of this episode. Thanks again for listening. I love you guys so so much. Let's go dominate the day and, as always, keep it real. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode. Hi you guys. I'm McKenzie Fult. I'm a private investigator of 20 years. I'm Hannah Anderson. I'm a writer, comedian and armchair sleuths who is not a PI, but I do know my way around Instagram. I can find anybody. Uh, close enough. Together we host the Dating Detectives, a true crime podcast about the scammers, con artists and heartbreakers hiding behind your favorite dating apps. Every week we investigate real cases that are sent in by our listeners and these are stories of matches that seemed perfect until, well, they weren't. We've had fake real estate moguls. We've had only fans pamps, an Elvis impersonator who was not just stealing hearts on state. We've had church-going husbands who seem so pious, so wonderful, except for the fact that they're secretly running Ponzi schemes. We dig through it all the lies, we follow the money and we expose the truth. And the truths are usually crazier than fiction. If you've ever texted good morning to someone who vanished by lunch, for instance, you're gonna fit right in. It's true crime, it's heartbreak, it's a public service announcement for anyone with a hinge profile. So before you swipe right tonight, make sure you've got your detectives on speed dial. The Dating Detectives new episodes every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.