How to Have Creative Courage with Dhaval Bhatt

And I don't know, I never saw this as like a lesser than profession. I'm very okay with what I do. I'm very comfortable with, I love advertising. I love making ads. I love, I love being able to create a compelling argument that can change peoples in vast quantities minds. This is the disruptive influence podcast with Jeff Abraison, where I talked to brilliant minds who are disrupting and influencing their industry in their way. Let's go. Devol, thanks for joining me, founder and CCO at Courage, one of Canada's leading agencies. You just won silver for agency of the year, which is crazy to me because you are less than three years old. You're doing crazy work for KFC, CIBC, Nestle, Skip, etc. My first question for you. How are you getting your clients to find the courage to approve this amazing work you're putting into market? That's amazing. Hey, listen, man, first of all, I'm thinking I got to give you to do our introduction in new business pitches, you know? That's very awesome. I've got to get you to do that. You know what? It's a great question. The answer to that is actually quite simple. I have this thing and we talk about this a lot where you don't think of your clients as golees. A lot of agencies approach them as almost like even the way that, and they believe me, it's no fault of yours, it's even the way we phrase that question. It's like, how did you sell that to your clients? You might as well be saying, how did you get that past them? You know what I mean? And the thing is, the reality is like, that's not who they are, that's not why they pick you. It helps that, you know, when the agency is called courage, they come in expecting a certain level of that. But really, a lot of it is in the mindset to the way we approach them because the way we see our clients is like, they're almost like to use a sports analogy. They're the forwards. They're the ones who put the puck in the back of the net. Our job is to make a great pass. That sets them up for success because it's guess what? It's their money, it's their brand, it's their product. And they're the ones who ultimately finally say yes. So it's a shift in mindset, I think that goes a long way where we come in and we almost treated like, hey, like, this is a great thing. This is going to, we believe through best of abilities. This is going to serve the purpose of you, all the things outlined for us in the brief and everything your brand needs right now. And honestly, I think that's the difference. I think that it's a little shift in mindset that makes it a lot easier for even clients to get on board because think about it, right? If you, it's a, we're all human beings and imagine if like someone was pitching stuff to you and it was always done in a way where they were trying to get one by you, you almost get more guarded, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. In a road to trust a little bit. So now I'm going to say we would make a hell of a one to punch in opening up a presentation or opening up a meeting. This is really good. I don't know if it's good cop, bad cop, good cop, good or cop. I don't know what it is, but there's some vibes here. I'm just going to play this. I'm going to play this by the first, what are we five minutes of this podcast? I'll send it to you right away. So I love how you're mentioning to get on the same team as your client. And that is super insightful. I literally just had a conversation an hour ago, but the same thing about getting on the same team to attack the problem, to solve the problem. What you do and what Courage does, which is really now, really modern, is I've seen some of your clients talk about you on LinkedIn and I've seen screenshots of the texts that you guys send each other and say, we have this idea. Do it? Yeah, do it. And that's, I think, is the next generation of relationship building that's the next generation of communication. And that's the next generation of getting stuff to market with speed and context and relevancy. Tell me how you go about building those sorts of casual and effective and quick decision-making relationships with your clients. Yeah, I mean, it starts with, it's very, very core to our philosophy. It's actually one of our main tenets that we operate with, which is human to human. And what that is all about is that, hey, it's not client to agency or creative to strategist or senior to intermediate or whatever. All that stuff goes out the window. And really, it's about humans talking to humans because, end of the day, really, that's what we're appealing to. And I mean, if we lose that, and I think what that does is that, it's not to say that there's no structure and there's no process. So even when you bring up the text, I think oftentimes, I had this conversation, I think a lot of people really love it. And especially if you're in a senior role, you love that, right? Not that relationship with your agency. But I think sometimes you feel like if you're in through the ranks, you feel like, hey, what does that mean? It's like, no, that's not about bypassing the process. We still do presentations. We still have very slick decks. I think, but the reality is that we encourage those relationships all across everywhere. And the point is that anytime there's an issue or anytime there's a great opportunity, or anytime there's something really time sensitive, is this so much quicker when we just connect as we would with another human being? Like, I don't know. Like, if there was a situation where someone, my wife or I, and we had to decide, like, who's going to pick up the kid? I would just text her and be like, hey, someone's got to do this, right? And you think, hey, this is a great thing happening in culture. We should do something about it. And to me, that's it. It's just interacting human to human. But of course, then you got to backfill that with all the process and the rigor that you need to, you know, get great work made out of the door. Is part of your system to have discretionary budget to be able to do stuff like that? I think so. So, I mean, we definitely encourage that, like, that is part of our approach. And, you know, to be completely honest, I don't think it's entirely unique to us. I think all good marketers, like, have now, sort of, have that sense that they've heard their A-G-Z's preach that. And, you know, and we definitely do the same thing. We tell them, it's like, hey, look, like, there are, in a calendar, there are things that you plan for, you know, inevitably there are things that are going to happen. Like, you know, Halloween happens the same time every year, you know, and so there are things you can plan for. But there's also stuff that happens, like, the crowd stark outage, you know, and I mean, like, just happens. And if you have some resources set aside, then you can pull off a Kit Kat and you know, and you know, and we part of that conversation. And it's also, you know, it's interesting, this learning, to me, there's levels to this, right? Like, I would even say, hey, there you go, man. I'm not just saying this, it is my favorite candy. But it's so good. I just had it. So for anyone listening, I just, I just showed Devol a Kit Kat rapper because I had a little snack to get some energy before this call. But let's continue that thought. You know, I, I was talking about the fact that there's levels to this thing where I, to give an example of the other side, I used to work for this, and I won't name it brand or the agency, but it was a, you know, a big, big, big automotive brand, right? And there's only so many big, what a brand. And I remember working on them. And every year, every single year, you know, they'd be the Toronto autoshow that would happen sometime in late fall. And every single year without fail, we would find ourselves about two weeks before the autoshow. And it's like, guys, it happens every year. It happens like, you know this and they'd have presence there, but you know, somehow the, the, the, the, the calm steam wouldn't be on, you know, in the loop. And that's it, right? So for us to say what we do is like, the first step is like, get ahead of those things. If you're a brand and you know that a certain moment that matter to you that are important to your girl, like, you know, I don't know if you're, if you're Kit Kat, you know, how it means important, you know, I mean, like, have those things in place. And, and then, you know, the next level to that. And that's where it gets really fun is that leave some, leave some budget aside, leave it aside for when, for when these opportunities, you know, present themselves in culture where you can move fast and, you know, in sort of your brand in the right way. One of the biggest culture defining moments that probably led to a wave of clients being able to do that was the Super Bowl outage and warrior showing up and doing something within minutes, which I think spawned all kinds of contextual, be ready now, have, have legal in the room or get out of text length teams. Tell me a bit more about the promises you make. Quote unquote, what people can expect if they're going to hire courage. Wow, you know, how really the promises, I mean, look, like the first thing that we hope that the name itself is a, is a bit of a promise, you know what I mean, that. And, and we truly, you know, it's so So, we talked about this, it's a one-word business model where it starts with, you hire people who have courage, you find clients who want courage and do work that takes courage. And then that cycle repeats itself because it attracts the next step and so on. And I think that is honestly the number one promise. Our thing is that when you come here, A, know that you will get our 100% attention on in terms of like, hey, looking out for you, looking out for your brand, looking out for moments that are happening in culture, we'll be there. And I would say that, know that you will be a little uncomfortable, that we push and we prod and to the point where you sometimes have to tell us, hey, no. And we'll send them, you know, we take it back. But I think the number one thing I would say is that through all of that, the thing that I truly, truly hang, hang, you know, my and our collective hat on is that we really approach all of this. We take the permission to bring the kind of work that we bring to our clients to push for the radical things that we sometimes push for. Because at heart, our agenda is never going to be misaligned with yours. You know, we're never going to be chasing something that is not important to you or that doesn't matter to you. Or at least it's at odds, you know, I've been up places where sometimes it's at odds with, you know, what's right for the brand, right for the client, but it's right for, you know, the people working on the project in certain way. And we just don't believe in that. We truly believe that, you know, our first and foremost, like, it's almost like a weird sort of, I don't legally, we don't have it, but we're almost like a fiduciary duty, you know what I mean? It's our job to do right by a client. And is it fair to say that you never as an agency lose sight that this is commerce? This is creative commerce at the end of the day. Absolutely. Absolutely. I've never, I've never had a problem with that. I've never had an issue with, it sort of goes back to, you know, when I got into the business. I think there are a lot of people in our business, not a lot, but, you know, some people in the business that actually wanted to do other things. And you see that, you see that all the time. They want to, they want to write a spin play or they want to do something else. And this is sort of like almost like a means to an end or a stopgap or, and I've never had that. I've, I truly genuinely as a kid, I grew up in India where, you know, I don't know, it's much like Brazil, like, you know, people who worked in advertising were sort of part of pop culture, you know what I mean? They were a presence. And I remember watching ads and going, oh, I could, you know, thinking of ways that I could have made that better, you know what I mean? And, and, and, and I don't know, I never saw this as like a lesser than profession. I, I'm very okay with what I do. I love making ads. I love, I love being able to create a compelling argument that can change peoples in vast quantities, minds, you know what I mean? I, I think that's tremendously powerful and I enjoy it. I do. And what I really respect is you don't lose sight again of the commerce and the conversion that has to happen for that client to make their money back or make more money than they ever imagined. But I don't think you're stuck in trying to get the awards. And I think a proof point there is your success at the FIs as well. There's actual efficiency and efficacy that's happening with the things you're putting out into the world. We've talked in the past about the stake and the sizzle. Tell me your approach to selling the sizzle. There's two aspects to it, right? Like one is I talk about the setup, the setup to an idea. The idea is the stake. The setup is the thing that kind of warms you up to it, right? Like a muse, a muse if you will. And the setup is incredibly, incredibly important, I think, to selling an idea. Because I believe this, right? When you, when you see the finished work, it has all the benefits of beautiful cinematography, music, you know, or whatever, if a finished photography or whatever that idea is like, if it's an act, an act, like the thing that you pulled off. Like when you're presenting that idea, it's got you and it's got your words and what you bring to the table, right? So the idea, as great as an idea is you need to really in the setup, really ground it in the strategy and really make it like almost like the, it almost like the idea feels like the obvious answer. Right. And I know that, you know, creativity is not such a neat little package always. It doesn't always go that way. But I do find that when you're setting it up, if you can make it seem like this really logical thing, you know, that adds up to this idea, that's great. And then the sizzle part really is for me is around, it's the finisher, right? Like you, you got to present this idea, but you got to really a bring, you know, use music, use whatever tools you need to paint this picture, to create the sense of emotion. And some people think that that's cheating, you know what I mean? Like, oh, like you present with the music track, but it's like, I don't know if you finish the ad, you're going to have that, you know what I mean? So why not? Like learn to learn to bring the sizzle is my point, right? Like yes, the work is great and what you've done, but you can't forget about like, you know, everything that goes around with it. I mean, there's still showmanship to it. Absolutely. And the challenge of creatives is, again, we have the responsibility to help a client imagine something that's not been built yet. That's it. I think that's the onus of the agency. You said something really insightful a couple minutes ago about being a boy in India, watching commercials. When I used to watch commercials, I was like, I love that. I loved being part of solving the problem or getting the joke, which is a good hallmark of great creative. You have enough insight there that the audience can, can jump into it. You said something about, I knew I could make that better, which is really interesting. I talk a lot about the signs that people had in their life. You had this sign of improving work. You had this fire that said, I could do better. I want to hear a little bit about that. Yeah. I love that. I mean, hey, that's a wild thing that you picked up on. I feel like I should be lying down on a couch right now. But that's very interesting. Even as I think about it, yeah, and I'm not bullshitting like that was my thought process as a kid. And not to say that I consciously knew that I wanted to get into advertising, but you watch and you go like, the stuff you really like and the stuff you go like, that could have been better. You know, yes. And but I think it's a good mindset, right? Like it does the idea. It's Japanese thought. I learned about this while I worked on a Japanese car. This notion of kai-zan and kai-zan is this notion of continued improvement, you know, your cheap perfection and it's the never ending chase of perfection. It was less than the pursuit of perfection. Like that was the line at one point. And I guess there's a bit of that, right? Like you look at things and you go, I've been very fortunate, you know, throughout my career. I've worked at some really, really good agencies with some really, really smart people that, you know, I learned a lot from. And but at the same time, like, you know, you always, there's always you look around and you go, we could have done that this way or we could do this differently. And I think that's one of the things that, you know, I expect courage was born from, you know, and I mean, this idea that, hey, there's perhaps a better way. There's a perhaps a better way to running an agency, to pitching business, to, you know, doing some of those things. And it's actually something that I'm really proud of, you know, like, I love how we pitch, you know, I love, we have this mindset about like, we like to make it a microcosm of what it's like to actually work with a client and, you know, we, that's how we approach it. And we do it in a way where it, we really try our damnedest, not to let it hurt the system, you know what I mean? Like where are let it get in the way off the jobs that we're doing every day because we know that end of the day, that's still our calling card. When did you have that vision to say, I'm going to start my own thing. We're going to do it my way to again, bring this idea of courage to Canada. You guys, for me, are making big waves in Canada, but even not even about the country, just about starting and co-founding your own agency. When did that trigger for you? If I'm being honest, it's something I've always had in the back of my mind. I don't know, like when I got into this business, even before I got into the business, you know, in my mind, it was the end state was always like, I'm going to have my own agency. And I don't know, maybe that's a function of me growing up in a business family, you know, what I mean, my business and his dad, his own and so on, where that's just to mine, where you, you know, that's the idea of how things work. But yeah, it was always in the back of my head. But I think what I quickly realized was that this is the thing, you know, I've always tried to find patterns, patterns of success and I've always been on the lookout for this and so I would always try and find like, "Hey, what did this person do? How did they do it?" or, "What was her secret of success?" And what I found was I had a really, really hard time finding a pattern. There was no playbook because I always say that for every Jeffrey Roche who did it one way, there's like, there's a Philly Planeer, you know, the St. Leigh guys who did it straight out of school and then there are guys who, you know, there was four people who came together like, you know, Aang, Steven, you know, and all of them, right? And the thing I found is like, "Shit, there's no real playbook here, but then you find the consistent things and for me, the thing that I looked for I was like, hey, there's very few cases of you doing people doing it on their own, like just on their own and sure there are some like solo names on the door, but there's not a lot of that, right? Like even when you look at like the four sort of letters or three letters strung together, it's usually three or four letters strung together, you know what I mean? And so that became very apparent to me early on that I was like, I need to find people that have the same ambition, that one thing that think like me and, you know, and I was very fortunate to meet Joel, you know, who has always harbored that ambition too, you know, and very different angle there, you know, like I came from a business family and that was my sort of mindset, but Joel comes from a family of builders, you know, is the whole to be constructions like they build homes like Joel used to be on sites framing homes, you know, is he, is he doing any of your set builds to save some clients some money? No, what? I believe me. We get our hands in the air like we're, because anything to be done, like we're not shy of it. Of course, not we're not building sets, but the point is like Joel's definition of like someone who gets gets their hands dirty on the job, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, he's still directing decks and he's still almost like, what was the shared vision? You looked for patterns. I think it's cool. And I think it's necessary that all these agencies come from different perspectives. Otherwise, everything, all the outputs going to be the exact same in your search for pattern and partners. What was that shared energy and vision where you guys said, oh yeah, I think I would say for specifically for Joel, actually, I would say for all of us, you know, like Tom and Nikki as well, but very specifically Joel, I think Joel and I just really, really hit it off on the work. I mean, we just, we love the same things, you know what I mean? We really like the same things. I think there's that, but we also like really, I don't know, we enjoy the craft. Like we love doing our thing. And, you know, like, we still like love, we call it lacing up and we don't do it as much anymore because it's just not better the teams. And we just love coming up with ideas, you know what I mean? And we get excited by, I remember like during the pandemic, like we would be on my back porch and, you know, working on briefs together and it would just be like exciting cracking stuff, you know, and I think that's super important. And then what I love about, you know, and the way that extends that it starts there, but then where it extends is like, you know, Nikki has the same thing like a friend for an account person, like, you know, she's genuinely excited by good ideas and is psyched and wants to keep them alive and, you know, wants to find ways to make them work. And Tom too, you know, Tom is one of the hands-down of the smartest strategists, you know, in the world, like that anyone's ever worked with, you know, you don't get to be like, he's incredible at his craft. But what I love about Tom is that he's someone that can talk strategy and, you know, I call deep strategy. For months, you can do that. But Tom also just loves getting to the work. Despite that, what he cares really about is that, is that strategy going to lead to amazing work, right? And I think that's, that's the, I think the common point that we all share. Like we just shared love of the work that I think we all have. Kind of comes down to that. As an observer of the work, it's so clear, there's that tinge of fun in there. You're just back from LA recently. We resurrected John Hamm for skip. For those who don't know, really wicked, multi-scene, multi-location, multi-actor commercial with John Hamm, touting skip again. What do people don't know about how something like that gets done? What I'd say is that, you know, I don't know if the people don't know this, but, you know, I think people might sort of underestimate it, but about how collaborative something like that needs to be, you know, because you got to understand, like, you know, there's, there's lots of important players from the clients to John's team all the way. And I think the thing that was like really, really important in this one, I would say that, you know, and we got very lucky. We worked with the absolute best in David Shane. Like there's, he's the absolute best comedy director out there, or, you know, one of the top, top, top. And it was just such a absolute pleasure working with this man, you know, and his team, like, they, so, you know, it's, I think the part that sort of, you know, the normal production that you assume is that, cool, you write a great script, you put it out, you get a bunch of pitch backs, and you go like, awesome, that's it. It changes about 10, 15% year there. And then you kind of, you know, you, you bring it to your in the edit suite. I think something like this is very different in that, you know, an approved script is not done till you're basically like, till you're done with the edit, you know. And I think in, so in that, in that instance, it's so amazing to have to, anyone that, you know, finds themselves lucky enough in a position where they're working with, you know, a budget the size of a Super Bowl. I would say that, make sure you really, really, really pick a director that you want to collaborate with. Because we got lucky in this instance, in that, you know, looking with, as I said, David Chen and his team, it was a dream. It was a lot to navigate, but doing it with him was an absolute pleasure. So, I'll sum that up in something that people might not know is again, the collaboration aspect, what goes behind it, but how malleable the idea has to be. And nothing matters. And that's what I try to tell people, nothing matters, but the final product, nothing matters. But we said this, we wrote this, no, until that thing is shipped off and in market, it doesn't matter. What I mean by doesn't matter is the steps to get you there, the, what was said along the way, the decisions that were made, what matters is what you've crafted at the end of the day. I think that's a really important point. I think yes, and to that, you have to know what's the thing to protect. Yeah. And I think that's what I mean, like being aligned with someone, with a director or with a partner that you're fully aligned, that this is the thing that we cannot lose. And I think that's a super important part. And you have to do that. Because otherwise, things can just go all over the place. Like someone else may want to do it this way. Someone may think this is funny. And you go, great, amazing, cool, cool, cool, cool thing. It's the biggest thing that we agreed upon that we need to your point. Like, what is the thing that yes, you have to be malleable, but you have to protect what that is. And what I mean by that is, is there has to be room to continue to improve. There has to be room to adapt. But I love that reminder of don't extinguish that spark of it. Yes. Don't mess with the timing. Don't mess with the joke. Don't mess with the core idea of why we're even doing this entire thing. I've talked to some ECDs who have done some of the biggest work in the States over the last 15, 20 years. And they surprise me by telling me that they give us much for the client as they can. And same vision as you without giving up the core. How much do you give back if they need to push back on something? I mean, I mean, look, it's for us, it's, as I said, the baseline assumption is that we're on the same team when we want the same thing. And you know, it's almost like if a client feels that, hey, like, this is important or this is not being addressed or this is, you know, of course, want to try and address that. You want to try and do everything you can to make that work. But also, it's also your job to tell them when it may be going off the rails, when it may not the right decision to make. So the answer to that is like, we give when it's right, you know what I mean. But I will say this, I'm very clear about this that end of the day, it's the client's decision, right? End of the day, they, as I said, it's their money, it's their brand, it's their stamp of approval. And they call the shots. So we've never done the thing where we hold an added hostage or, you know, like, by the way, I've heard of these stories. I don't I never seen that happen. I don't know who that is. It's crazy. - I mean, look, Ad Land is full of stories, right? So who knows what? Who knows what's true? As a former VP creative director myself when I would tell people what I did, oh, you're like Don Draper. What was it like being with Don Draper? - You know what? It was pretty cool. Like we got on a few calls and it's, you know, I'm doing the Zoom thing and then of course, like, and you know, shooting for a few days in person as well. But my favorite bit was at one point, you know, where it's pretty funny, where John was like, hey, listen, I know I know I've only played, you know, creative director, but you know, you learn a few things. - Because I know people, I know people have told you that too. Oh, you're like Don Draper, Devon. You're like, yes, yes. - To me, that was one of the funniest interactions, right? Like, yeah, I think of what I was also amazed by that he's just a gifted actor, like, you know, just a tremendously gifted actor, just the ability to just like, switch it on and get into character. And then it was pretty cool to watch him do his thing. Like he's a true master of his craft. - I mean, he has such a special type of humor and he's in on the joke. When you are choosing an actor of that caliber, what process happens to have them look at the script, participate in probably some editing, dry runs or rehearsals, just all the things involved. What's that like? - Yeah, I mean, look, to me, we actually try not to change it too much the process 'cause end of the day, it should be the idea lead. Like who ideally you end up with a celeb that's there like fit with the idea or fit with the brand wanted to do, you know what I mean? And in this instance, you know, it was the right thing to do for the brand. It was John was someone that represented that brand in the past, you know, and they had good success with him. And so for us, it was like, hey, use a new phase, we're reintroducing and we're moving to a new, launching a new platform, which I think we landed quite well, this idea of like, you know, skip to the good part. But it's squarely lands it. But I think for us, it was, it strategically meant like a really, really smart choice to then bring John back, you know, and it sort of went, there were two ways to look at it. Like, you know, we had a bunch of other scripts that had, we explored a bunch of range of other celebrities, you know what I mean? And then when it came to John, we weren't just like, oh, which one would John fit best in? It was like, no, no, no, we got to write around John. Like, let's write a different script for him because it's a different character, you know, and that he needs to bring. And I think, I think that's, to me, that's it, right? So I think, I think this temptation where, you have to be very careful not to do a thing where your celebrity becomes the idea, you know what I mean? And you see, a lot happened, a lot of that happened and like, you know, I hate to say it, but like, it's a bit of a thing that happens in the south of the border. Oh, you know what I mean? Because you're working with big budgets and you got like, you know, it's like, hey, put a celebrity on it, you know what I mean? It's sort of the easy answer. And but what you end up with is like, they become the idea, right? Whereas I think what I'm really proud of that even with someone with as much of a presence as John, and especially when it relates to Skip, because he was quite associated with the brand. I think what we managed to do was really land what the brand was about, you know what I mean? I think frankly, I would argue it better than it was done before. Earlier, you mentioned about those predictable moments in the year like Halloween. And then you see the stuff you did for Taco Bell, which might not necessarily be associated to Halloween. What can you tell brands or creatives or strategists or agencies about mixing a product or brand with a moment in time or a calendar event, predictable moment that might not align on the surface or customer might not realize. So we talked about Kit Kat makes perfect sense. Halloween Taco Bell is not the first thing you would think of around Halloween, but you did these really fun shelter ads, billboards, et cetera. - Gerson, I mean, you're right. And you're right is not as direct a connection as like, take Kit Kat and Halloween, right? But if you know, Taco Bell is known as late night food, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - And guess what night we're out late. And so there's a role for it, right? I think there's gotta be a role 'cause if there's no role at all, then it's sort of like you're just kinda trying to, yeah, there's gotta be some legitimate role for you in that moment. But I think that's where the magic lies, right? Like when you go beyond like the sort of, the absolute obvious, right? And that's where it actually becomes interesting. And that's where brands have room for growth too, right? Like suddenly, now Taco Bell has a really good night on Halloween night, right? Or, okay, see, like you always think of pizza, you know, the first thing you think of is pizza. Or, you know, we did a campaign of a KFC for Thanksgiving. Like you don't think of, you know, you don't think of chicken or-- - Even chicken, yeah. - Turkey, but the reality is like not everybody needs, has a turkey-sized gathering. And frankly, not a lot of people like turkeys, not even the tasty bird. (laughing) But what is Thanksgiving Thanksgiving is people gathering around together at a table and eating. Guess what KFC is, is the exact same thing, right? And suddenly now you've planted that idea and KFC has a pretty good night on Thanksgiving night, you know what I mean? - I do. I love how you summed it up where it, again, it has to make sense. The connection has to be there. Don't just do it to do it. Don't do it to be difference. Don't do it to disrupt patterns, but there has to be that connection. And again, you have just connected it to commerce at the end of the day. Something still has to happen. Sure, it might take a while. You need to see that uptick over time. So how many extra tacos were sold? - Oh, man. - I don't know yet. - Just kidding. - You tell us. I mean, and frankly, we like to know, we actually get-- - That's part of partnership. - We actually get these, and, you know, Nikki's all over it. And we get regular updates from our friends at KFC, from friends at Taco Bell, even the bank. Like we get pretty-- We stay on top of that shit. Like, and it's good. - You want to know. You want to know, you know, if you're-- I say, if you're working on a brand, you should do yourself a favor, and if they're publicly traded, add them to your stock ticker. And I'm not that I'm saying that what we do affects things, but you want to know, like, that's an indication of how their business is doing. And that's what-- - That line going red, that line going green, that determines your forecasting for next year. - Especially in regions like Canada, where we tend to get 10% of the budgets, 10% of the audience. So if we can even pull past our weight class, which I've been proud to do in my history too, I know it feels amazing. What do people not see behind the scenes at Courage? I see the big 10 pull stuff. I see the commercials. I see the billboards. I see the KFC stunts in front of McDonald's. What are the other things you guys are building that people might not see? - I mean, I'd like to see that-- I'd like to think that, you know, I'd like to think that our work is the stuff that is getting, you know, noticed and seen. And I feel like that's the thing we're really, you know, known for, and that's a great thing to be known for. So I'm not complaining. I think the thing that I'm really, really proud of is honestly, like, I handle such a cliche agency, owner, founder thing to say, but I really, really love the how we're going about it, you know what I mean? And the how in that, I think we've established a very, very good culture of people enjoying the work, you know what I mean? Like some not just culture of people doing great work or chasing great work, this idea of like, people actually chasing the craft and having fun making things, you know what I mean? And it's one of those things where, you know, you can't really see it unless you work here, you know what I mean? And if you work here, I think you find that it feels different, it feels different to work at a place that puts a lot of emphasis on enjoying the process. And, you know, I'm looking after clients and, you know, enjoying that as well. And not so much on just the outcome. It's not just about, you know, the awards that we win. And are you involved, let's say for a KFC in the flyers, in the in store menu design, in store experience? That's what I'm getting at. The things that people might not realize in agency is behind. And we're not going to see you post the menu on LinkedIn. We're not going to see the effect you might have had. So tell me a bit of that behind the scenes. Like we just, we literally created a design system for, we're literally KFC franchisees. And this would be the kind of where you go. And most agencies, almost every agency, we just turn into like cool, get someone to design whatever open till 8 30 AM, make it modular and put it out the door. but here we go. we became into the KFC clock. That's a great example of something like that. From nuts and bolts standpoint, we do everything. We do all of KFC. Every single piece of communication that you see out there, the 599, like special, all the POP that goes into the stores, all the way to the big commercials. I think same at CBC, we do, we have some pretty big clients here in terms of size and scale and that we service and we do all of their communications. But even that Jeff is just the output. But there's so much that goes into that output. If you think about the amount of the thought leadership that needs to go in, so many of our clients, we're currently currently in the midst of helping a new brand, essentially establish its name and everything. That project is being led by Tom and sort of the strat team right now, but as it moves through the system, but we do a lot, man. The work is literally the tip of the iceberg in terms of what our capabilities are. And the fascinating part is how tied to experience and revenue, these decisions are like it's important how that screen displays. It's important the order of things. And I'm not sure the average customer realizes that, nor should they realize it or care, but they have to get a feeling from it and it has to, again, influence them, persuade them to do something and it matters. Absolutely, absolutely. It's an experience, right? And look, in some instances, you have more of an opportunity to affect things than others. And that's okay. Sometimes it's a slow burn. And some are giant ships and sometimes you have a speedboat. And I think that, I use Kip as an example, a terrific example of, there's really really, there's an opportunity for us to work with the team there, the Coms team, but also they've got internal, like Fills leading the internal creative team there. And he's an amazing creator, right? And working with them to actually create like a great, everything, you know, we're affecting our stuff down to the app notifications. And that's a fun thing to do. And those are things that no one individually, like we're not going to enter that into, you know, can line app notification category. That's a thing that brings a team great amount of joy when they see is like, you know, you know what, only they might appreciate the, but we know that's not the case because it's cohesive experience that died through all of those touch points that the consumer experience is to. And they appreciate it in small increments that leads to, you know, them staying around for a long time. And I even saw the way you just smiled when you talked about a notification. It just shows what you meant before about rolling up your sleeves, getting into it and craft the idea of craft permeating everything in the spirit of this podcast, disruptive influence, which I love to remind people was inspired by my high school report cards that used to say, disruptive influence in class. What is the most disruptive thing you've done or seen in the industry so far? I mean, you know, in terms of disruptive things that I've done, I like to, I mean, it's such a, that's a hard question to answer because I would like to think that, you know, it's ahead of you, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's got to be ahead of you. Like the, the thing you do next has got to be there because I find looking back and resting on stuff you've done is such a, it's comfortable, it's very cozy. It's almost too cozy. It's too comfortable. No, no, no. Well, that's why, that's why I didn't ask you. I have it in my notes here and we talked about earlier about kind of never being satisfied and an artist can judge themselves on their growth by looking back to what they've done and being like, oh, that could have been better, you said earlier. That's why I didn't ask you, do you, do you have any perfect projects? I don't even want the answer. I kind of sort of do, but I didn't ask you that because I'm making the assumption of around how you just answered that question where you're like, that was great for what it was. I learned something, I probably would have changed something that makes me better for the next one. Is that accurate? Yeah, yeah, I think so. And it's one of those ones where, yeah, you know, there are every project, like, as you know, it's, it's never perfect and I'm terrible at that. I'm so, so, so, like horrifically bad at that and I need to be better to be honest where I'm never, it's never quite there and what I've learned is that, you know, you've got to learn to sort of get to get stuff. You got to know when to go, it's good. And that's not to say, like, you know, be okay with good enough, that's not the point. But I think you have to know yourself and you have to know that sometimes like the chase for perfection can get in the way. And there are lots of projects that I'm immensely, immensely proud of, like, you know, I love, I love KitKat AI. I think it was just so simple. I love the origin story of that, you know what I mean? Like, it's such a cool story that, like Matt's dad was at an AI conference in San Fran and he, and for those who don't know that was an idea built on the discovery that AI is acting a lot more, like humans than you would expect. And when you told it to take a breath or take a break before giving you the answer, it gave you much better answers, which is the whole ethos of KitKat. Take a break. Exactly. And it was, yeah, and, you know, he just, I love that for that story that his dad was at the conference and he's like, he's like, hey, like, I found out that, you know, if you ask AI does this thing, if you tell her to take a breather, it answers the better. I don't know if there's something you can do with that. And he was like, yeah, KitKat, that's perfect. So it's such a simple thing. And, you know, or like, you know, the stuff, so much of the stuff that we do with KFC, like, I love, I love the beauty of, you know, the world is your oyster spot that we did for CIPC. So gorgeous. It was pure, marked into some incredible job and Mark Zeebert. And then you've got like, you know, yeah, this, you know, which one, you know, which one I think of a lot is the Python Anaconda, whatever you want to call it for the KitKat. I don't know the product name. It's those, those, those spheres, those, those round, what do they call the KitKat pops? Yeah, the KitKat pops and just the casting on that commercial with just the way you made the guy kind of look like a guy who would have a massive snake in his house. I saw him in another commercial. I said, that's the guy. That's the snake guy. So, craziness like that stands out for me. And then, of course, the production value, the art direction down to the sheen. There's just a sheen on him, a sheen on this, on this snake. And it all comes down to take a break the way you want to take a break, said better in this spot is so funny. A lot of people didn't like that sheen. For funny. I mean, obviously, it's hilarious, but it was funny. Apparently they got some calls. Like, so why is he so shiny? Well, I just took it as like it's a hot day. The guy's taking a break and it's probably a good environment for a snake to be like, like snakes don't like it cold. So come on. But it just added to his slitheriness. So call it. And for those who haven't seen that spot, go see it. It's mildly disturbing. It's tons of awesome. Let's add the biggest influence on you in your life, when your career. Wow. I think to be honest, my biggest like, it sounds like I've been very, very lucky. Like I have to say, it would have to be the people that I've worked with. Like I've been, you know, whether it's now or whether it's in the past, like I remember learning like just incredible things from, you know, like guys like Glen Hunt, you know, about the craft and work ethic, you know, when I worked with him on support. And, you know, and then working with, you know, Angus and Steven, you know, and then these guys were just like just, you know, we all know Steven likes, you know, just incredibly nurturing person and just like so, so, so careful and into the craft. You make me some last names so people can look them up. Even jurassic Glen Hunt, and then, you know, Angus Tucker, you know, was Steven jurist's partner. They were the founders of John Street. And Angus, you know, I, I learned so much about like how to talk to clients, how to handle them, how to, you know, like really like sell an idea from him. And, you know, there was some like constructive, very active constructive criticism too that I received from Angus over there. And then I think I'm better for it, you know, and I mean, and even like, you know, like guys like. Yeah, like so many, like even, even, even start men, you know, Aaron who's the dear friend and just a, but just a tremendous, the ability to like just laser focus, hone in on what is the nucleus of an idea and then just like, not let go of that. And are these are those skills that can be taught? I think so. I think so. I learned them. I gotta be honest. I don't think I'm a, I'm a, I'm, that's why I think the question you asked is around influence is so important because I truly believe I'm a product of the people that I've, you know, make sense to work with through all of these things, right? I think the thing that I probably innately brought is just a, it's a doggy, work ethic and determination. Like I think that, I think I'll take some innate credit for. But a lot of the other stuff is, is, is nurtured. It's, you know, it's, it's watching people be incredible and, you know, picking up from them, you know. As we wrap up, one thing you should take credit for is being a really cool and understanding dude. You are the guy who I missed a call on. You are the guy who rescheduled it with me. He gave me the thumbs up when I sent you a gift and I said, oh, this is me right now kind of like, what's the word? Just crouching down and I sent you a card in the mail because I said creative director, creative director. I said, he's going to get a kick out of this. So I sent you a card in the mail that said, well, fuck. And I wrote you a little letter in there and I just said, hey man, sorry for missing the call. Thanks for understanding. Talk to you soon. And the funny part is that card came with stickers. So I made some sort of pun about the stickers in there. So just want to say, what an impact. I knew you would be cool about it. I was hoping you would be right. Like, a moment like that can totally have a grand sobbing to all of us. Offset a relationship. So tell me about that approach to just being so human. Again, thanks again for understanding that sometimes you miss a call. It happens and enjoying that gag I sent you. I think you know what it is. It's honestly like, we're all human. No one in the right mind makes a meeting and then misses it on purpose. I don't know. Maybe some people do. I don't know. Posturing posturing strategy. I think that's a crazy thing to do. I'm not sure to do, but I don't know. I think in general, man, I think we could all just be a little bit more. Be a little bit more chill with each other. I think the world could use that right now. I say that as you're on the eve of, I don't know. I'm going to go home. It's a big night in the US tonight to date when we're recording this. Yeah. I'm going to go home and going to watch the TV and God knows what's going to unfold. But I'll say that sometimes it's just a lot easier to be that way. It's chill. We're all just human. We're all just trying to go on with our lives. And we're all the central for all the universe's. And sometimes I don't know other things happen. I don't know. Sometimes as more pressing things to do in life, then talk to fucking some creator director who started an agency. I love how you don't take yourself too seriously in that Don Draper role. So that's amazing. One last question just that I wanted to ask earlier. Even so into the craft and you said, well, we're not as much in it anymore. That wouldn't be fair. So that's another amazing sign of leadership. When you said, we're not necessarily crafting the ideas anymore. You're probably more guiding them, giving feedback on them. You are now influencing the next generation, right? I'll interview someone who's worked for you in a few years and they'll say, the vol was my influence. So what is that like? You know what it is? I don't think it was like I don't get to do it. There's no lost frame. I almost, the game frame for me is like, I get to do it multiple times with multiple teams. You know, every time we have creative check-ins, and I think that's the one thing that we do a lot of, right? Like we have a lot of those. And we still go in there. So yeah, when I said that, we're not there. I think we try not to be the ones who like crack the ideas. You're the rest. Just go do what we said. Like no one likes that. You know, but I do think that it is our job. That's where clients come to us. They want us to be involved in the work that we are actively involved. But I think for me, like that said, when you're sitting with the teams and you know, you're jamming with them, like when they're sharing the ideas with you, and then you leave enough time and do it often enough, you can jam and you can add and you can build. And it's just more fun that way because then they feel ownership of that work because they feel like shit, they were part of it. You know, versus like, you know, you come the wall and Joel and hey, cool. We have a regretted here. Go make this, you know, and it's like, nobody wants to do that. And fun, like you just said, is one of my favorite keywords. And I had so much fun having this chat. So thanks for taking the time to join me. You didn't have to, but you did it. And I got so much out of it and I'm just, I leave this so inspired for the future of the craft and the future of the industry and knowing that these brands that we all know and love are in really good hands. Oh, thank you, man. Really appreciate this, Jeff. And yeah, super fun. If you're enjoying disruptive influence, please like, share, subscribe and do all the things. You can also find me on LinkedIn, Jeff Abraison.