462: How To Have Better Conversations

[Music] Hi guys, thanks so much for tuning in to today's show where I welcome Ashley Kirstner and Ashley is the founder and director of Skip the Small Talk. Social impact startup focus on combating the loneliness epidemic through nationwide in-person events. Skip the small talk events are based on Ashley's social and clinical psychology research at Cornell University, the Harvard Decision Science Lab, the Harvard Business School, the University of Miami, and McLean Hospital. And today, Ashley and I talk about her work and how to become more vulnerable, and maybe you feel like you're vulnerable, but your partner is not how to encourage their vulnerability. And then we dive into how to have better conversations and ask better questions. I really like the specific examples that Ashley gave, some really valuable practices that you can put into your personal lives, into your relationships, if they're romantic or really all of your relationships, I really enjoyed the tools that Ashley provided today. As always, thank you guys so much for tuning in and joy today's show. [Music] Hi Ashley, thanks so much for joining me on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. Today we're going to talk about the amazing work that you're doing with the program Skip the Small Talk, which you now have a card deck out that I'm excited to share with our listeners, but I thought we could start by having you tell our listeners why you enjoy doing this work that you're doing, how you got into it, and then we'll talk about ways that we can have better conversations. Yeah, I can share a little bit about how I got into it. So it actually started when I was volunteering at a suicide hotline. And I was noticing that regardless of what people were calling in about, that people were generally pretty hesitant to share whatever difficulties they were going through with the people they cared about. So it was, you know, they were happy to spill their guts to me a total stranger, but when I would ask them like, "Hey, you mentioned you have a boyfriend," or you mentioned that you live with a roommate that you care about, or you mentioned that you're close with your family. When I would ask, you know, "Have you shared what you're going through with those people?" Almost invariably people would say, "Oh, we just don't talk about that sort of thing," or, "Oh, I don't want to burden them," or, "Oh, for, you know, one million reasons." I don't feel comfortable sharing that with them. So for some reason, you know, after some time of hearing that over and over again, I started asking people, "Well, if the roles were reversed and, you know, was your roommate or your parent or, you know, whoever that was who was going through something difficult, would you want them to tell you about it?" And without exception, in my whole time at the suicide hotline, everybody said, "Oh, well, of course, if they were going through something difficult, I would want to know about it." So there was clearly this sort of, you know, difference in how vulnerable people felt comfortable being and how vulnerable people wanted others to be with them. So after I discovered this, I was wondering, could I sort of put people in a room and sort of tell them all that they all opted in to sharing a little more and being a little more vulnerable? And then would people, you know, I was hoping it would be, I sort of thought of it as a vulnerability gem where people could try out sharing a little bit more than they might in their everyday life and then go back to the people in their lives and share, you know, feel comfortable sharing a little more with them. And I really just did it as a one-time thing and it was supposed to be three hours long. We had to kick people out after seven hours. People, you know, I had everyone come, a bunch of people came up to me after and said, "So when's the next one of these?" And I said, "Oh, there isn't." And people kept saying, "Well, we'd really love another one, so can you please make another one happen?" So I said, "Fine, I'll just keep posting these until people stop showing up." And it's been about seven years later, people keep showing up, so I've continued hosting them. Amazing. Well, there's so much I want to dive into with you. Let's talk about vulnerability and why you think and I'm sure you have some research in this area as well, but that people struggle with being vulnerable and why sometimes it may be easier for people to share with a complete stranger than, let's say, their romantic partner. Yeah, I mean, so I sort of have a personal take on this that it's really the more you avoid vulnerability, the scarier it is, which is supported by some research in how anxiety works. So basically, I used to work at an anxiety lab, specifically for social anxiety, and basically what we find in all kinds of anxiety and all kinds of phobias is like the more you avoid a thing, the scarier it is to you. And so I think if you're not use-to-bulnerability and you don't, you know, maybe you grow up in a culture where it's not as, you know, it's not the norm for people to be vulnerable or even if you're just, you know, a man, especially for men in, you know, American culture, it is so difficult. You know, it's just so non-normative to, you know, share your feelings with your friends or like, you know, people don't even have a roadmap for how that's supposed to go if you're gonna, like, how to share with a friend that you're going through a hard time. People are just not used to it. And so I think the more you don't do it over time, the more difficult to becomes to do it. And so I think just by the fact that it's not, you know, we don't have a lot of easy normative ways to be vulnerable with people, that it then gets more and more difficult over time to be vulnerable with folks. That makes sense. It's kind of like if there's something that's bugging you that you want to share with your partner and you're scared of their reaction or whatever, it's almost like the longer you keep that, the more it's gonna build up and create anxiety and yeah, it's not comfortable to sit with that. So how can someone practice more vulnerability and opening up and let's say in the context of a romantic relationship and then I want to talk about, you know, in day-to-day other interpersonal interactions? Yeah, I mean, I didn't really like the model of, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy if we're thinking about sort of, if we think about it as either an anxiety or a phobia about vulnerability, I think, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy gives us a sort of look into what can make it easier to do. For instance, like, you know, the way cognitive behavioral therapy works is let's say I am anxious about, you know, social interaction, for instance, is they would give me increasingly intense sort of challenges almost so that you're slowly exposing yourself to more and more of the thing you're afraid of or anxious about. So that's sort of what I generally recommend to folks is to try and be vulnerable on the smaller thing. So even as little of, like, as like, you know, someone really, you know, made me angry at work today and so sharing this, like, little vulnerability that like, maybe if your partner isn't totally like, you know, it doesn't give you the perfect response to it, that it's not going to ruin your whole relationship. It's just a small risk. So I think taking increasingly large risks over time makes a huge, huge difference. And I think it's the thing people don't really think about. Like, I am myself in a relationship of five years, and it's been such a part with a wonderful man. And it's so difficult to, you know, really convince, I think, especially, I know I said it before, but really men have such a hard time knowing how to be vulnerable and knowing when it's okay to be vulnerable. And even realizing that people want them to be vulnerable, I think that's just not a message that we give to people in general and especially not to men. What's the way that someone listening? Because I feel like someone listening that feels like it's really hard to be vulnerable. These are good tips, but I think it could be almost more valuable someone listening who they themselves feel like they're able to open up to their partner, but their partner is closed off. What are some ways that they can encourage their partner to share without being too pressing or overbearing? Yeah, honestly, I really like positive reinforcement, just, you know, whenever someone, whenever they do share something, especially if they share something about an internal state. So they're not just sharing, like, you know, sort of sequentially hears what happened in work and then and then and then. Of course, that's great to reinforce and say thanks for telling, you know, show enthusiasm, be an active listener, but especially if they express any feeling, even if it's I was really annoyed at some of network today or I was really you know, I felt really bummed that XYZ happened really being an active listener is makes such a big difference. So that entails, you know, not just saying, aha, aha, but also, you know, there's this idea of showing that you are understanding what they're saying. So it's not just the intake of information. It's also giving them information that yes, I've been paying attention. So the way, for example, that we're trying to do that suicide hotline is, you know, there's a few tools we use, we use open-ended questions like the ones you ask on your podcast, lovely questions that sort of get you to talking about, you know, allow you to sort of decide the direction that you're going in as opposed to yes or no questions. We also use reflections, which are basically just, you know, summarizing what the person said. And, you know, I like adding, like, does that sound right after I summarize it, which is a tool that's so, so useful and so magical, but it feels kind of weird to do, because, you know, we're not used to really like summarizing what someone says and then saying, like, yes, is that correct? But it's actually when you start doing it, people feel so understood and seen. So that's one concrete tool for sure people can use. And then the other one I really like is validation. So just sharing with people like, oh, that totally makes sense that you would feel that way or like, you know, I also would totally feel that way if I were in that situation or like, I can see from what you're telling me that, you know, that would be really upsetting. So just being able to share that like whatever their feeling is normal. So at the suicide hotline, those are really aside from like assessing suicide risk, which is a very like specific sort of, you know, process you need to go through. There's also these three skills are basically the only thing you do in a conversation with someone. And it's crazy just how, you know, I remembered like being on the suicide hotline and talking to folks where I'm like, oh my gosh, they really do have a really difficult time. I have no idea how I'm going to get them to a point where they're feeling safe. I truly don't know. And all I would do would just use those three tools, reflection, validation, open-ended questions. And somehow by the end of like 10 minutes, they would be like, oh, thank you, I feel so much better. And it's just so counterintuitive to our fix everything culture where we always want to like, well, I have a solution for you. Like you really, you know, a lot of the problems I heard just don't really have solutions or at least not solutions that I feel equipped to, you know, problem solves with them necessarily. But yeah, just those three tools are enough to make people feel seen and understood in a way that really makes them want to share more with you. Like it was almost a problem at the suicide hotline. We had collars who would love how seen and understood they felt that they would just call multiple times a day as often as they could, even when they're not a high suicide risk, which actually they're totally allowed to do in suicide hotline. Like, you know, I I loved that we were able to talk to people who were like feeling lonely, but maybe not necessarily like a high suicide risk and hopefully stop people from getting to that point. But yeah, it was it was a big deal. People really, you know, even by just using those three tools, it's enough to really make people feel understood and help them feel less lonely and help them really know that vulnerability is a safe, okay thing to do with you. Before we continue on, we're going to take a short break to tell you about our sponsors. All right, tell me if this sounds familiar. Your line next year partner, instead of feeling peaceful, your mind is racing with distressing questions like, how can I know if I actually love them or what if I'm just settling? He tried to push away these unwanted thoughts by asking your partner how they feel about you, replaying your conversations to search for signs of connection or texting your friends for reassurance that you guys really are the right match. But the reassurance never sticks. The question keeps coming back stronger, demanding answers you can never seem to find yet your distress pushes you to keep searching anyway. If you've ever had experiences like these, you might be dealing with more than the typical relationship doubts. It might be OCD or ROCD because of all the stereotypes about OCD, many people don't realize that it can latch on to anything that matters to you, including your most important relationships. ROCD creates this exhausting cycle where you're constantly doubting your feelings, endlessly seeking reassurance and always questioning your partner or your love for them. It's exhausting, scary, and can seriously damage the relationships that matter most to you. But it doesn't have to because relationship OCD is highly treatable with the right approach, not regular talk therapy, which can make OCD worse. You need a specialized type of therapy called ERP or exposure and response prevention. It's the most effective treatment for OCD. And that's where no CD comes in. No CD is the world's leading provider in OCD treatment with licensed therapists who truly understand all types of OCD and specialize in treating them with ERP therapy. In live face-to-face virtual sessions, your no CD therapist will help you break free from the doubts viral so you can actually enjoy your relationship instead of constantly questioning it. Therapy with no CD is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans and they provide support between sessions so you're never facing this on your own. If you're tired of unwanted thoughts affecting your relationship in other areas of your life, visit nocd.com to book a free call with their team and learn more about how they can help. That's nocd.com. All right therapist, listen up. If you run a practice or thinking about running one or ever want to sleep at night without thinking about the administrative part of your job, this is for you. So Kayla, real question, what was the worst six months we've ever had at Thrive? That's really easy. The six months that we switched away from simple practice. Yep, no hesitation. None. Our profit dropped by 90% and not because we weren't seeing clients are doing good work, but because everything on the back end started breaking. Yeah, billing slowed, insurance got messy. The systems didn't talk to each other and all of that admin chaos started bleeding at night's weekends and honestly our nervous system, which is wild because being a therapist, the work already doesn't end when the session does. You've got notes, scheduling, billing, insurance, follow-ups, all of the stuff that no one really prepares you for. And that's why we want to talk about simple practice. Simple practice is an all-in-one EHR that is HIPAA compliant, HIT Trust Certified, built specifically for therapists. HIPAA brings scheduling, billing, insurance, and client communication into one place. So you're not juggling five platforms just to keep your practice running. Automated appointment reminders, reduced no-shows, customizable note templates, make documentation faster and less draining so the business side of your practice actually feels lighter. And if you're starting out or growing, their credentialing service is huge. Insurance enrollment can be brutal and this takes a massive weight off. Simple practice is trusted by over 250,000 health and wellness professionals and you can feel how thoughtfully it's built for our field. If you're ready to simplify the business side of your practice, now is the perfect time to try simple practice. Start with a seven day free trial then get 50% off your first three months. Just go to simplepractice.com to claim the offer. Again, that's simplepractice.com. I just want to re-innerate the three things because as you went over them and described it, and I've said this before on the podcast, but this is like, I feel like that's like my love language and I think like we all want to feel understood, right? And that's how we feel seen and that we matter. So we're talking to our partner and they're asking us open-ended questions, they're reflecting back to us and they're validating our experience. I mean, it's so powerful to be able to receive that and to give that to your partner. And I'm wondering, is there a way other than, I mean, I guess we could just share this podcast or share these things with our partner because I think it starts with ourselves that we can give this to our partner, but how can we communicate to someone like, "Hey, I really love it when you ask me open-ended questions," I guess. Like, how can we bring that to them or you mentioned your partner like, "How would you be like, could you do this a little bit more without saying it that way?" Yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel like my strategy is mostly to, you know, positively re-inforcing to say like, you know, I mean, it's as simple as saying something like, "Oh my god, that is a great question." Let me think about that. Or like, "Oh, wow, I feel, yeah, you, you know, if someone does a great reflection and say like, "Oh, yeah, that is exactly it. Thank you. I feel like you totally get it." So just those little things totally can do the job sometimes, but honestly, a lot of the time you do need to get to that better level of like, "Hey, you ask phenomenal questions." Like, I feel so understood when you do that. Can you, like, would you be comfortable actually like doing that more regularly? I love it. Or like, you know, I love when you, you know, make me feel validated even though, you know, when I'm in a stupid fight. I love it when you say that, you know, that I, you know, my feelings feelings are totally reasonable. Like, can you, you know, I wonder if you could do that more just 'cause I love it when you do that. So I think explicitly asking works totally fine, especially if you're framing it as like, I love this and I feel connected to you when I experience this and my goal is to feel connected to you. Like, how could anyone say no to that? It's such a, it's such a blessed like, you know, especially if you frame it in terms of like, you know, this isn't because you're doing anything wrong. It's not about what you're not doing. It's just that my goal is to feel as close to you as I can. And this, I notice this is when I feel connected to you. - I love it. It's such a valuable thing to do in all areas of our relationships is that positive reinforcement instead of it's easy to focus on the negative. It takes a little bit more conscious effort to point out the positive, whether it's with what we're talking about or it's just like, hey, I really love how you took out the trash last night that that was super helpful. Those little bids for connection or it's not even a bid, but like a reinforcement that that's really makes up a relationship in the little things or the big things. - Yeah, it's huge. And honestly, another sort of small detail that I've started doing that seems to make a pretty big difference is when I say like, I like when you do XYZ or like, thank you for doing XYZ, I try and share what impact it has on me. Like I try to share the inside, like what's going on for me on the inside that they would not otherwise see. So like, even with example, it's simple of like to get out the trash like, oh, thank you so much for taking out the trash. Once I saw that like, you know, I opened the trash and I saw that like there was a new bag there. I cannot tell you how much I felt my blood pressure lower. Thank you so much for like, you know, making my day so much calmer with that one thing or like, you know, if you're like, oh, hey, I noticed you asked this really great question and actually I was thinking about it. You know, I, you had me thinking about it for much longer and I discovered XYZ about myself and that was really helpful. Thank you. So the more about your internal world that you can share about how they're positively impacting you, the closer you can feel to someone. And again, it's not something we do. It's not, you know, when's the last time you went to a friend and said like, hey, when we hang out, I feel really close to you. Like we just don't have the vocabulary for it. So I think honestly just doing it, trying it in the smaller ways, like you took out the trash, here's how it impacted me. And then building up to like, here's what you mean to me as a friend, as a partner, as whatever. It's probably going to be a little easier than just going straight to like, you know, the, here's how much you mean to me, kind of conversation. I love it. It's such an important reminder. This might be a new idea to someone or it's just a reminder. And we got to constantly do it because it doesn't necessarily come naturally. We're not taught it. Usually it's not modeled for us, unfortunately. So thank you for the great examples in the reminder. I want to talk about some open-ended questions because the name of your organization is, you know, skip the small talk. And to me, one of the more powerful ways to have more meaningful conversations is to have better questions. So what are some of the things that you're seeing or that you're modeling for people as far as asking better questions? And we could talk about in a romantic partnership or, you know, I like also examples from everyday interactions. Yeah, I would say, I think a big theme, both, and what I try to do in my everyday life, as well as what we do as skip the small talk, both with our question prompt cards, that we use to help people start conversations, as well just like overarching the vibe that we try and go for is we try, is generally trying to go for asking questions about internal states. So for example, instead of saying like, you know, you could start with like where you from, and if someone just gives you a one word answer, like I'm from Miami, as a simple follow up question, like, oh, what was that like for you growing up there? And like, oh, what do you think about it as the place to grow up? Or, you know, things that sort of get people talking about, like, did you like it? Did you not like it? What was it like for you? The more you can sort of draw out people's feelings about it, the more, the more you'll both feel to each other, and the more comfortable the other person will feel being vulnerable with you. So if you can, you know, draw out those sort of internal states, which is what our question prompts do as well. So like, I'm trying to think of a few, like, in what ways are you different from the person you were five years ago, and what ways are you the same? Like, that's a question where you can go in a ton of different directions, but a direction people often go into is like, how they've changed internally, and how they are internally now. So yeah, any little questions that get you there, especially for everyday conversation. And yeah, I think a lot of people hesitate to talk about feelings because, you know, it feels like a really big deal to ask, like, how are you feeling right now? Which is fair. I think that is a tough, you know, I don't think that's really a normative thing to say. So unless you're quite close with someone. So I think the little things, you know, asking what an experience was like. Like, oh, I just came back from a trip to China. Oh, how was that? What did you think? Or like, oh, was that scary to like, were you by yourself? How was that to be by yourself? So I really like really simple questions. Like, how was that? What was that like for you? Because it does sort of draw people into thinking more about their internal experience as opposed to like, well, you know, the sort of, we did this and then we did this and then we did this. So yeah, I think any internal state question, I think another thing that is that I hesitate to give, like, you know, I think a lot of people like having questions that they can go into any conversation with. But the reality is that a lot of questions are going to feel out of place if you're not being present and sort of responding to whatever is happening in the moment. So, you know, I can give question. You know, I feel like this is a question that comes up a lot for folks who come to our events. They're like, can you give me like three questions? I can ask any stranger that are going to make me feel more connected to them. But I think the thing that makes you feel most connected is sort of being as present as you can and asking things about like, hey, we're both in the same environment right now. Let's, I can comment on the environment and ask your opinion on that. Or I notice you are, you know, wearing these really cool earrings that have a specific style to them. Can we like talk about that? So, I think anything that brings you into the present is going to be really helpful. But I know that's also such a tall order, especially for folks who are anxious about being in social situations. So, I think a much like in order to be asking those really good questions, I feel like the skill that I recommend the most is actually like mindfulness, which is just about trying to be present. And if you're freaking out, that's totally fine. You're still doing mindfulness beautifully because if you're aware that you're freaking out, that's all mindfulness asks of you. I think there's a lot of people think of mindfulness and think, oh, I need to be like, my mind needs to be completely quiet. I need to be completely at peace with whatever is happening around me. When that's not really possible for a lot of people and that's not really even the part of mindfulness that makes you feel more present, the part that makes you feel present is just the awareness of, oh, hey, I notice I'm freaking out a little. Oh, wow, I'm noticing my heart racing and my palms getting sweaty. And honestly, just that simple thing can make you feel a lot more grounded and can help you over time to be more present and be there for when an opportunity to ask an awesome question comes up. - Before we continue on, we're gonna take a short break to tell you about our sponsors. (upbeat music) - Are there any exercises or questions and I know with the context of it's about being mindful, but I do like the prompts 'cause I think it helps people get thinking about ways to think that you use in your partnership. - Yeah, totally. I, yeah, some questions. I mean, I really like gratitude-based questions for ongoing relationships. So for instance, my partner and I, when realistically we don't do it every single day, but we shoot for every day doing, saying at least three things, we're grateful for the other person about, and it really does change just so much about how you see the, those like 10 minute investment or five minute investment every day just goes so far in like, I've been surprised at how far reaching it is that even throughout the day, it just makes you look out a little more for the positive things. Like it just changes the wiring of what you were more sensitive to, which is a really big deal when you're in a long-term relationship, as I'm sure listeners know. But definitely gratitude-based questions. And also like, you know, it's funny. I think we assume that we know everything about our partner just 'cause we've been with them a while, but I actually took out my question prompt deck and did a few questions with my partner, mostly to try out the questions, but then I did discover like, "Oh wow, I really, there's a lot of stories I've never heard. "There's a lot of opinions I never knew that you had." So I think if you have someone else's opting in to an experience where you're basically asking these questions that are gonna be a little deeper, some questions I really like are the questions I mentioned earlier about what ways are you different from the person you were five years ago? What ways are you the same? I also like, if you've gotten an opt in from somebody that you've recently met and they're interested in sort of going a little deeper, I really like to describe yourself through the eyes of someone who loves you. Because then you get, I think a couple things happen, people get to describe the best versions of themselves and they also, the look on people's faces when they're actually thinking about it is one of the sweetest things I've ever seen. So that's a nice bonus. And yeah, I think what I really like doing is sitting down with my question prompt deck and deciding on the questions. And I think there's some that are level of depth that you wouldn't wanna go into with everyone or even in any mood or in any setting. I think one of the sort of spiced your questions is like what healing do you have left to do? And that's gonna be a much bigger conversation. You maybe, if you're killing time in line at the doctor's office, that might not be the thing you wanna get into. But yeah, I think some of the questions that we have are like, you could really ask, I was actually using them last Thanksgiving with my family. And my sister-in-law's mother and father were there. They're basically in their 80s. They've been together for something like 60 years and they were discovering things about each other that they hadn't known before. So really just, you know, try starting those conversations. And like if you can get opt-in, like those questions can do such magic. - That's beautiful. I love that in their 80s, they're learning new things. And yeah, that's the power of asking good questions. And I appreciate the prompts I was writing them down and I'm excited to use them. Thank you so much for this conversation, Ashley. Before we wrap up, can you tell our listeners where they can find you online about your work and about the card deck? And if there's anything you wanna leave our listeners with and then we'll say goodbye. - Yeah, awesome. So you can find us at skipthesmalltalk.com. We host events that are basically like speed-frunding events as well as some speed dating events in 20 plus cities throughout the US, I think we're at now. As well as a couple international ones. We also have the question prompt card deck available. It's on Amazon or on Simon & Schuster, if you prefer. Those are the big things. We also do college and corporate events and you can also check out at skipthesmalltalk.com. And yeah, I love that question of one thing to leave people with. I think if there's one thing that I hope people will leave with, it's that being vulnerable is so much safer than people realize it is. That just because of the series of biases that human brains are subject to, vulnerability is always gonna feel scarier than the repercussions actually are. So if you and the cost-benefit analysis of it is just like the benefits of it are just the greatest experiences that being a human can offer. So it's kind of hard to beat that. So basically I would urge people to, in whatever small ways you can, as often as you can, to just try being a little more vulnerable than you might be otherwise. 'Cause yeah, it can, even those small moments make such a big difference in making you feel more connected. - I love that. Thank you so much Ashley for taking time to come on the show today. We'll have all those links in our show notes and on our website. And I really enjoy today's conversation. - Yes, I'm here. Thank you so much. This is great. - Thank you guys so much for tuning into today's episode. As always, all the links to the guest as well as any of their recommendations will be in the show notes page. You can find the link to that in the episode description or by going to idupodcast.com. Click on the podcast tab up at the top and you will have access to all the episodes that we've ever done. There are over 300 of them. And while you're on our website, if you haven't checked out our free 14-day happy couple challenge, we really hope you do. It's a free email challenge that we send to you. It's 14 days of fun, easy, doable challenges to help strengthen and improve your relationship. And if you're looking for something that provides a little more help with working on your relationship, whether it's improving intimacy or communication with your partner or just bringing the spark back. We would love for you guys to check out our online course, Spark My Relationship. We're offering $100 off to all of our listeners. If you go to sparkmyrelationship.com/unlock, we've worked with over 15 psychologists and therapists to create the real life tools and strategies that they are teaching their clients. So we wanted to give them to you. It's a self-paced online course that can be done in as little as a month or up to three months. You can really decide how much or how little you want to do with your partner or maybe just yourself. So we hope you guys check that out. It's sparkmyrelationship.com/unlock. Have a great day. (upbeat music)