84. How to grow your business without losing control | David Palmer

Welcome to All About Business, with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests, the bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What does it take to build a business from scratch and turn early momentum into something that lasts? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by David Palmer, founder of Life of Fish, a modern fishmonger that has grown from a lockdown pop-up into a multi-site retail business focused on quality, sustainability, and community. In this episode, we discuss building a business with limited resources, why failure can be an advantage, and how to create a brand in one of the most traditional industries in the UK. Well today on All About Business, I'm really, really delighted to welcome David Palmer. David is the founder and director of Life of Fish, a modern, sustainability-focused fishmonger based here in London. David, your life of fish began, I believe, at the age of 15, if not earlier, you've been in the fish business, all your adult life. You're the right person for us to be talking to to learn about this subject. I'm really looking for the conversation because I love fish, I love eating fish, I like fishing, I like the sea, and I like looking after fish as well so we can cover all of those aspects. As I understand that you started the business coming out of the pandemic or during the pandemic, but before that you work for many years at Selfridges in London in the fish counter. Could you just give me a little introduction to yourself in terms of how you got into this business and what your early lessons and learnings were? Yeah, sure. So I left school at a really young age and never really got along with school to be honest and then I think I left around year seven which is yet first year of secondary school obviously. That is a really young age. Have you just said 11 or 12 or something? You're not allowed to leave school? No, you're certainly not allowed to know, we've got many visits. Oh, but you just left? I left yet, I didn't like it and there was no way I was going back, but my mum started homeschooling me for the first few years and we did that until I was around 14 and having five older brothers, I think their plan was to go. Hang on, you have five older brothers? Five older brothers? Well, they've been homeschooled as well. No, no, no, they sort of all did a similar thing. I don't think only one of us barely finished school to be honest. Right. But none of you liked school? No, we grew up on a council estate in Robert Hive in Bermansy. It was kind of a trend. It was the 90s then, you know, sort of, I was kind of like forgotten kids and just sort of kids roaming around on bikes really. So it wasn't the most amazing upbringing I must say. But you had the solidarity of your family? Yeah, we had the solidarity of the family and we've all we've always worked. So I saw all of my older brothers work from a young age and weirdly it was kind of normal then about 15, 16 just to go straight to work. I don't know if it was just the area where I grew up in, but there wasn't there wasn't many other things to do, you know, university and stuff like that wasn't really. You didn't see anybody go off to uni or anything like that. If you weren't going to university, you went to work, I suppose. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think I think their aim was to make me go back to school because obviously they didn't. So they wanted the best for me. And I think it was more like a scare tactic. Well, if you're not going to go to school, then you got to come to work with us at two o'clock in the morning at Billingsgate Market. Oh, so they were working at Billingsgate? Yeah, they were working at Billingsgate. You're mum and dad. Oh, no, no, your brothers. Your brothers. Yeah. So I said, like, being a bit cocky, all right, fine. I will then like anything's better than school. Well, so you better take what Billingsgate is in case people listening don't know. I mean, I know if it's a Londoner, but what does Billingsgate is? I think it's the largest fish market in Europe. And it's, yeah, it's a big fish market in, based in London, basically. Now in the Docklands, isn't it? Yeah, it used to be in the city right next to the Canary Wharf. It used to be located just across London Bridge, basically, which very central location would make things a lot easier for me now. But yeah, so they were basically working through the night prepping fish for fine dining restaurants. That was their job. So they took me in. I think hoping that they would, I would see age 15 age age 14. 14. You think I don't want to do that. Oh my god. Yeah, I don't want to do this. I better run back to school. Right, but it didn't work. They didn't work. I wouldn't say I loved it, but I didn't dislike it. Right, you didn't dislike it. Yeah, so you got into it. Yeah. We're another. Yeah. And the owner of the company basically said to me, all right, if you're serious on one of work, full time, come back when you're 15. So I did because it was lawful to start employing 15. Yeah, yeah. So I did, and my first job at Billingsgate was to climb into these, they've got these huge containers where all the polystyrene boxes are stored. And obviously this is this is back of what 20, 2005, I guess, around then. So there wasn't, you know, Amazon where you could just order nice boxes. So my first job was to climb in and out of bins, right, to get polystyrene boxes to then jet wash them, right, and clean, to then be used to pack fish in again. Right. So 2 am 15 years old, crawling in and out of these, being looking for boxes that weren't damaged basically is how I got into fish. Right. And then what happened after that? And then I graduated. Sounds like Charles Dickens book. I know it's bizarre, isn't it? Well, you made a life and career out of it. Yeah, I mean, so what how did you do that? What happened next? I don't know. I guess, yeah, I guess there was just this determination to sort of keep going back and not necessarily to find the boxes, but you know, there was a lot of other things going on there, like filleting fish and seeing these huge fish come in that were being filleted for, you know, like Gordon Ramsay restaurants in his prime. So these were tuna fish, were they? Mainly like a lot of salmon and a lot of cod. So it was kind of exciting and traumatised at the same time, you know, because it was like early hours of the morning freezing cold. Did you feel sorry for the fish? When I said traumatising, I was wondering what was it? No, it was more, it was more just the the elements of like it being January and it being snowing outside. Yeah, it was very, it was, it still is a very tough job. But then I sort of, I think they saw that I was going to stick around and then they started getting me more involved in prepping and cleaning squid and things like that, which is kind of like the entry level to be in a fish monger. And then sort of fast forward a bit, did that for a while. And then I started helping to pick all of the orders for these fine dining restaurants. Right. And I didn't really know, it didn't really sink in like the experience I was actually gaining. But what I was learning is about grading fish, understanding sizes and understanding, you know, quality control and, you know, how to look after fish with regards to like packing it away and things like that. So I was actually learning a lot more than I thought I was, I think. You didn't realise. Yeah, I didn't realise. And then I started learning how to fill it fish as well. Did you do a formal apprenticeship or you just a learn? No, it wasn't structured in that. No, it wasn't structured. And I think that was the kind of, when I say traumatising, it was kind of, you know, I was one week I was playing PlayStation at home, nice cozy in my room and then all of a sudden, I was, I was off to work. And two o'clock in the morning, six days a week, about 12 hours a day. We've allowed a man that was, it was, I always describe it as like, imagine having like four Gordon Ramses just screaming and shouting at you all day. You're not, you're not sending it. I'm not sending it, I'm sorry. But I mean, it sort of, it does sort of lead to why, how I run my business these days. Go on. So, so, but then, but before we talk about your business, which you started in this decade, you worked at Selfridges. So you learned to become a fish monger. And then I mean, Selfridges, you're at the fish countries, that right? Yeah, so I was the manager there. So I sort of learned, learn enough about fish in wholesale. And, and I went into retail just because I'm more of a people person and I have a passion for food. Before, around the same sort of time, I was also enrolled into the Jamie Oliver 15 foundation, which I completed the first section of that of cookie and then learning how to be a chef. Okay. And then, yeah, so I discovered that I, you know, I really like working with people. And the hours for the wholesale side of things that Billingsgate weren't to in me so much. So that's when I moved, I actually started working in a small independent fish mongers before Selfridges, which is where I, I learned how to sell and price fish and, and deal with customers really. And, and I was able to sort of show my passion. more for fish there. Whereas in wholesale it's more about just throwing the fish into a box getting the award already. Yeah. And then the director of the company that ended up taking over the concession in Selfridges was on the hunt for a manager, went round all of the good independent fish mongers and that's how he found me and offered me the job to be the manager in Selfridges, so you were you were headhunted. Yeah. I was trying to think of a funny fish fish. That was one of the big official energy but you were that so that was an interesting process of recruitment which makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah and it was the first time that I'd really been able to see that you know maybe there is a bit of a career path in fish and fish mongering. It's a lot different today, fish mongers are great today but then it was kind of everybody was in it because it was all they could do if you like kind of like how I was in it. Yeah. So yeah moving on to Selfridges was a massive career change. Did you know that there are nearly 1 million 18 to 24 year olds who are currently not in education, employment or training in the UK. This is simply not good enough and I want to do something about it. That's why Reed is launching a new initiative giving 20,000 pounds to young entrepreneurs to help them grow their small business. Visit Reed.com/entrepreneurs to find out more. We want to support and encourage the next generation of entrepreneurs and you stayed there for how long? I was there for I think nearly nine years right and I learned going there moving to Selfridges I just I learned more about price in fish and margins and obviously more dealing with a luxury service and providing a luxury service to a different clientele really. So over this period you'd accumulated a lot of knowledge and experience from Billingsgate up until the time you were at Selfridges clearly and you'd learn about cooking and yeah. And obviously service as well. So this gave you gave you a lot of resources with which to start your own business in a way. Yeah definitely and I don't think I realized that at the time. I think I was just kind of plotting along but it wasn't until I did go to Selfridges that I sort of I started seeing we were getting training for certain things and I was kind of like well I already know this right and then I started to piece the puzzle as the manager there and I learned about all sorts of different things like food safety procedures and all that sort of stuff some of the best food safety training out there obviously Selfridges and that's something that we apply to our daily. Which is really really important. So what was the moment that made you decide a guy on your own? I mean this is a key moment for entrepreneurs isn't it? You are going to take the plunge and start my business. How did that happen? What was your journey? I started a little street food business. At the time there was this movement of lots of different street food vendors that were buying high quality produce that you would get in a restaurant but they were cooking it in a street food. I was cooking it as well. Yeah yeah so so I started that and the first week I took a hundred tuna steaks to cook and didn't sell a single one. Where was this? This was in Brick Lane. You didn't sell a single one. There was about 300 people walking around. It did yeah and then I started. My freezer was packed. So what happened there? So how did you proceed from there? I don't know. I just went home and I was a bit down. I was a bit like oh I really had my heart set on this because I'd seen other people do it and thought why it like but there was something in me that was kind of I was more trying to find solutions as to why it didn't work right rather than giving up and I think that was really the first time that I saw something different in myself and I went back the following week and this is the part where you probably expect me to say I sold a phasor and I didn't sell a single one. I wasn't sure what you were going to say. And I went back and then I did end up selling a few and so that was the third week and that gave me a bit of a buzz to you know keep moving but what it taught me is that I was in the wrong area and then I moved to a different market got there could barely set up. Where did you go? So I went to Moby Street market which is near Borrow Market. So different clientele really. So many tourists. Yeah yeah closer time maybe. And I sold I think I sold a hundred or 70 tuna steaks in an hour. So the location was good. Yeah so that's what I learned but I always think to myself if I didn't keep going back to make those mistakes or whatever it may have been I may never have gone to Moby Street and I made 700 pound profit in an hour on my day off and honestly if you would have seen me it was like I was a millionaire walking down the street. So there was no looking back? No there was after that it just filled me with this feeling that I knew that I would never be able to get from working for somebody else and that was apparent when I went back to work the following week and I was. Didn't I think so? I had a really good job on a good wage and whatever else but yeah there was something inside me that just I think I unlocked this entrepreneurial spirit. So you had this this concession in Moby Street market? Yeah then you started a fishmonger is that? Well I did that for a few months and then logistically it just wasn't working out which is another learning curve because I didn't have a driving license so I was getting everything there and that's expensive. It was just yeah it was just so I went back to work and then started over the next few years kind of formulating a plan in my head and it I was just unhappily. So you held on to this? Yeah you wanted to work for yourself. I knew that I wanted to do something and I knew I also knew that street food wasn't it because it wasn't sustainable. I was never going to be able to sustain an income. People do but me personally I don't think I could have done that. But yeah I always knew that I wanted to do something for myself and then I think I was just frustrated with fishmongers in London especially or the UK. I felt like it was quite a bore and people were referring to it as like a dying trade which obviously it's my trade. I've been doing it my whole life and at this point I was about I'm 36 now's about 30 then and I just suddenly thought butchers had this sort of resurgence where they had like the Kuwait prins and everything they were more explaining about where the meat comes from and people were taking a bit more pride and wanting to understand more about where their food comes from and I was kind of there with all the information but nobody had really ever done that in fish mongers anyway for customers to be able to tell you your concept then is to sort of share much more about the veggies. Yeah definitely I think it can be quite intimidating when going into a fish mongers and seeing a load of whole fish and having to you know how do you help people yeah I understand that because you don't know what they are all no and which ones are fragile how to cook them necessarily so how do you help people with that. We just we focused more on customer service rather than say your filleting skills because that can be taught but what we found is that you know education around fish and where the fish comes from and how to cook fish and how to make it easy is probably more important than that because after all we want the customers to buy the fish yeah and I think I've just witnessed so many different scenarios in fish mongers where they just not been helpful to customers and in my head I'm like you're you're losing customers right yeah so we so you brought a real customer focus to the customer focused and then also just made it a bit more appealing by selling different things other than just fish so you can come into any of our stores and and buy non-non fish related things you know so if we want to find you life of fish you say come into any how do people find you if they want to come and enjoy your so that's why fish from you so we've got two shops one is based in Peckham and one's based in Abbeyville Road in Clapham a lovely little street in southwest London opposite the famous butchers gingerpeak and then friends yeah and then obviously in self-reduce food hall we've got a big concession there self-reduce food hall as well so yeah so you maintain that relationship successfully so David as I understand it you started selling fish outside of a cafe how did you build the business and the brand from there yeah so I there was a cafe at the end of my street and I knew the owner Jimmy it's called cut the mustard the cafe they bake all their own bread and all that sort of stuff and it was just it was just in the in the first stages of covid and nobody really knew what was going to be happening and we had a brief chat and I I jokingly said if it gets any worse I may have to start selling fish out the front and he's a pro. entrepreneur, you know, he started his business, similar to how we did. And he said, well, why don't you? And I think I said yes, with a bit of fear. And then he sort of called me the following week and said, so are you going to, are you going to sell fish outside tomorrow? Because I'll put something on Instagram if you are. And, yeah. And something in me was like, this is the moment I've been waiting for. So who was this man? What's his name? His name's Jimmy. Jimmy. Yeah. He's just carefully called shout out for Jimmy. Cut the mustard. Cut the mustard. So that was where you started. Yeah. He encouraged you. Yeah. Yeah. He's really encouraging actually the whole time. So yeah, I, the next, I think that was on the first day and then on the Friday, I ordered some fish and it turned up in a load of polystyrene boxes. I took cake, weigh in scales, like for flour, to weigh the fish, a calculator, a little change box and a single knife thinking obviously nobody knew what COVID was at this point, but the supermarket shelves were pretty empty. So everybody was at home and looking for something, you know, decent to eat. And he put this post out on Instagram and I set everything up. There was nobody there. And then I think I bent down to pick up the bucket of water and looked and there was about 70 people queueing for my fish. 70 about 70 people. It's quite a close call. Instagram. That's like, oh, that's my god. So there I was just filling in and prepping all of the fish and people absolutely loved it. And then the same thing happened the following week. Right. And more people turned up. And then gradually from there, everybody, I don't know if you remember, but everybody would start creating WhatsApp groups for the areas and the streets and things in lockdown. And we would all go out and clap, which is like forever ago. And my Instagram started getting passed around as the guy who can deliver fish at this point, I wasn't delivering anything. Right. And I started getting loads of messages and that then moved on to WhatsApp messages. People sending me their orders of fish. So in a way, the pandemic made it possible. We wouldn't have happened to that. Definitely so positive. And I was prepping fish, prepping orders for people, the fish orders in my kitchen at home. Right. And then I just, I think we got one weekend, we got 100 orders of fish at this point, no driving license, nothing. And I attempted to deliver a, but I did I had delivered 100 orders on a pushback. So I'd been up at whatever time. And I realized I couldn't do it on my own and woke my partner, Ruth, up and said, you're going to have to help me with this bare mind roof, haze fish. Finally. And yeah, and yeah, Ruth, Ruth, my partner in the business and my partner. And that's how it began really. And then we just grew and grew. And one thing we've always done in the business is we never knew that we would get this far. So I think I always saved, I was very careful with the profits. And I always saved any profit. I think the first weekend, we made like a thousand pound profit then the following week. And then it was, and then we just kept saving it. And it just grew, it was growing so fast. And we were doing about two, three hundred deliveries in a weekend. At this point, I got a delivery driver by the way. And the natural progression for that would be to just open a shop and people could come to the shop rather than because it's a lot of work prepping and delivering. And then we opened, and then a shop became available next to cut the mustard at the end of the road. And it was just, yeah, it was, it worked brilliantly. Our first day that we opened, honestly, about 150 people showed up. The queue was down the end of the road around the corner. And it was like that for probably for about a year. Right. But I was always cautious in terms of like knowing that it kind of wasn't real. It was the pandemic, you know, everybody was at home and not at work. That's why we were so busy. Yeah. So that was one of the reasons for to expand as well. Yeah. But that's how that's a great story. Thank you for sharing it. And the other question on my mind, when you described starting work very young, is there any advice looking back now that you'd give your younger self, you know, that 15 year old David? Maybe don't be so hard on yourself and make sure, make sure to listen really well and just go for it, you know, because even now, you know, the smallest things can really grow and turn into something really special, you know, but you'll never get to that special place unless you start small. And most importantly, you know, hone your skills and make sure that you treat everything as important as it can be because you don't, you know, I spoke about cleaning those boxes. When we first opened the shop, we didn't like say we didn't have any money really and there was a time, you know, where we were sort of making do with all sorts of things. And if I hadn't gone through that experience that I said, I disliked, then we maybe I wouldn't have had, you know, the experience to get where we are today. So you never know when you're going to need certain types of experience. And I think sometimes people in jobs sometimes don't like doing certain things. But you also said that you didn't realise how much you'd learn. Yeah, exactly. So when you say, you know, don't be hard on yourself and really listen, you're learning all the time, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. And that's very valuable. I think early in people's careers, there's a huge amount to learn. Yeah. And to sort of go out and try and learn as much as possible is a good advice. Yeah. And I think that, you know, it can be really beneficial starting from the bottom. Because you learn, you learn all sorts of things that you may not have, you know, getting all different situations at work. You may be asked to help this person do that. You know, I used to help all different people. At one point, actually it's a good story. I've been, I'd been, I'd been fill it in fish and everything for about two years. And and the owner came into the warehouse and said that the person who does the invoice in has left, just walked out. We've got nobody doing the invoices for all of these fine dining restaurants. And he sort of shouted, does anybody know how to use a computer? And nobody put their hand up. And I was like, I did. So I did. And I instantly went from cleaning squid outside into a nice comfy office, inputting all of the data and the the fish weights and charging all of these restaurants and printing out all of these invoices and, you know, putting them in the correct piles for where they would deliver to wait and learn about the business. But, you know, if I, if I didn't stick it out through cleaning those boxes and things like that, I would never would have got that opportunity. So, yeah, it's all just as important as each other, I would say. So okay, so what are the, what are the most popular fish? What do you sell the most of? We sell a lot of salmon. Right. A lot of salmon. A salmon's kind of people's go to, I think, for midweek meals. And then it'll be another white fish, I would say, along the lines of cod, hake, things like that. We generally try to keep people on to British coastal fish, rather than wild British coastal fish, rather than farmed fish, which, yeah, I mean, people love salmon. I don't think you could ever turn them away from that. But that would, that would be farmed. That would be farmed. Yeah. But the other fish tend to be wild. Yeah, it tend to be wild. So, so the moment there's, there's concern about the macro stocks around the UK and that they've been graded five, I think, on the risk list. Yeah. Some, some stores are not taking macro anymore. What's your view on that and how do you deal with that? I mean, I'm, I'm all for it. Obviously, we need the fisherman to be able to sustain our business and selfish. And I know personally, just because we do use a majority of our fish comes from small dayboats, which are small dayboats. Yes. What are they? So they only go out for short periods of time, whereas the other trawlers, they're not big trawlers. They have low impact on the ocean, basically, and it's the most sustainable way of fishing. And where do they go from these guys? So a lot of these go out of all different places in Cornwall and in Devon. We, I drive three times a week to Hastings, where they got driving license. Yeah, I got driving license now. Thank God. To Hastings. Yeah. I drive to Hastings and basically there's two fishermen there that I buy everything that they catch. Right. A lot. Super fresh and it's sourced locally. Yeah. So it's, it's too, by the whole catch. I buy the whole catch yet. Whereas, I love you. Yeah. I mean, well, it was, it was my way of getting them to sell, sell to me just because a lot of the bigger companies, they want to sort through and find the perfect size for chefs and restaurants, whereas as we're selling to the public. What do they have typically in their catch? So they can have anything a lot of place, occasionally a turbot and occasionally macro. But they're really cool. The man. Yeah, I try. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I try to, you know, we concentrate a lot on the marine conservation society on their website and what they recommend is a fish, a good fish to eat or a fish to avoid. And we tend to follow that like almost religiously, especially for self-referges. Yeah. But then there's the other side of it where I'm actually physically dealing with the fishermen and I can see that, you know, they say to me, we're not actively looking for macro, but we've caught them. And once they're there, you know, at me as an operator, what I'm and what am I meant to do? Am I meant to see them throw these dead fish back in the water or am I meant to buy them? So you can, you can sort of be stuck in between sometimes, but, but generally we do buy the whole catch of everything they've caught. Yeah. And you're doing that on the understanding they're not actively looking for things. No, I mean, if there were three, three huge crates of macro, I probably turn them and turn them away because that's a show they've been outfishing for that. Exactly. Yeah. Whereas if there's three to five fish or something like that, then they'll take them. But then that's when it becomes important in our shops, as I mentioned before, is that we then educate our staff and they will then be like, so this matters to your customers, you find? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, especially with social media and stuff like that, everybody is kind of educated around things like this now, which, which I remember a lot of people almost seeing that as a negative, whereas I always thought that was a positive because then that opens the doors for us now to be able to show all of our hard work and experience with regards to how we source our fish. Yeah. Have you seen people's sort of eating habits change? Are people eating more or less fish? Is that definitely more? Are we eating more fish? Yeah, definitely more. Why is that, do you think? Because we're around now. Yeah, because you're the great. Well, they don't have the good fortune of living near one of your out. We do deliveries as well. Yeah, we've got an online shop. So you've got an online shop. Yeah, you tell me about that. No, yeah, sorry. You're finding your online shop. Yeah. So on our website, my partner, Ruth, what's your, what's your website called? It's www.lifeof.fish. Live of no.com. We thought we would be a, are you a dot fish? Yeah. Dot. Fist of dot fish. Okay. Ruth, my partner, who is a brilliant graphic designer and web developer. She, she comes up with a creative, creative, so you can order online. Yeah. So you can order online. I think we are the only fish monger that is also, that's got physical stores as well as online. How long, how long does it stay fresh? How do you get it? I mean, because what you've been describing there, the sort of going to Hastings, getting it fresh is quite appealing. But how do you get it to people quickly enough? So everything is, everything is next day delivery. Next, so that's about getting it from Cornwall. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you're all ordered with us. We've, we've always got, we've designed the website to have, obviously, our stock items in. And if something isn't available, it's not available. But normally we know, we have, we tend to have regular customers online. So right for dot fish, I'm going to have a look at that. Yeah, you should. Yeah, yeah. No, that sounds great. And it's often me who still does the deliveries. Really? So you're coming in person. So that's good too. Yeah, I always, yeah, I always just find that, well, one thing that I've found with running the business is, you have to also find what you like to do in the business as well as all the boring stuff. And doing the deliveries and being out and about in the van and stuff is, yeah, I enjoy it. So you like, as you said earlier, dealing with people, so you like dealing with customers, you like dealing with the suppliers. Yeah. I mean, I'm awake from 4 a.m. Pretty much four times a week. So my day can look like anything, but you actually get up at 4 a.m. Unlike me, I just wake up at 4 a.m. Oh, really? Oh, god. No, you're using the time more productive. Yeah. Sometimes. So you get up at 4 a.m. Yeah. Yeah, about that. And yeah, I'll go into each shop, see their displays, make sure the displays look nice, make sure that they're, you know, one big times of the shop's open. They open at 930. Okay. Yeah. So not, but before then, we've got to go everything into the shop before then I would have been to collect the fish and back again and then distribute the fish. Where do you collect it from? So we do, we do buy a bit from Billingsgate. Right. So you're either getting it from Hastings. Yeah. Hastings and then we buy a lot from Newlin in Cornwall and Brickson in Devon. A lot of our flatfish come from Brickson in Devon. But there's, if you, if you can order a bulk amount, then Cornwall transport will deliver directly to the shop. So everything that was caught yesterday tends to be delivered today. So it's a pretty good service. If that's really important, if you can, if you can sell enough fish, because so is it true you shouldn't buy fish on a Monday? Not so much anymore. No, why is that? Just because I would be told that. Well, we've, we've, I have to say this now anyway, because we've, we're actually a seven day operation now in all of our shops. Yeah, we're sort of trying to get rid of that stigma around non buying fish on a Monday. The traditionally that was in, that was a thing because everybody bought their fish from Billingsgate. And Billingsgate is closed on a Monday. But because we buy so much fish, obviously, to be able to sell throughout our shops, it means that we do buy directly from the coast, which we do get deliveries every day. Also fish shelf life, you know, you can have fish that last two days comfortably. So it might be a less selection, say to a Saturday, but yeah, it's, I think I'll say some, a good fish manga opening on a Monday is fine. Fish and beer. Yeah. So, so you said you also learnt from Jamie Oliver, a bit of a, a bit of a chef. Yeah. What's your favorite fish? And how, how would you suggest it be prepared? Weirdly, I always go for all the cheaper fish. Yeah, I go on. That's encouraging. Well, I love things like Gernard to make fish and chips out of Gernard. It's really nice because it's quite, it tends to have quite a meaty texture. Yeah. But my sort of speciality is turning fish into what you would normally use meat for. So I cook, I've cooked twice now at one of the largest barbecue festivals around called me Topia. Right. And the proof is kind of in the name. I think when I contacted them and asked if I could cook there, they were like, well, we're called me Topia, not fish topia. Where, and where's me Topia recur? Where is it? Tobacco dock. Is it in London? Yeah, yeah. So it's every summer, September, I think. So, say anyone going to me Topia who doesn't fancy a steak can find you? I mean, the tuna steak or something. Yeah. So what we cooked this year is there's a lot of British bluefin tuna now in the UK. Is it? They've been migrating here for the last 10 years, I think, years. Is that because the sea's getting warmer? Yeah, all different things. Apparently it's that there's a lot of mixed opinions, but a lot to do with it is they just migrate, I think. Bluefin tuna around the UK. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, loads of bluefin tuna. But one thing I learned from my wholesale days is that a lot of fish just gets filleted and the bones get thrown away full of meat. So for me Topia, I created a double cheeseburger by using all of the carcasses that would have normally been wasted with full of meat, minced it how you would normally do a burger and turned it into what looked like a double cheeseburger. But it was fish. But it was fish. And so what did you call it? A bluefin double, I think it was called. And people went nuts and we had a queue of about 500 people. Really? Wow, so it seems quite original. Yeah, this is all the sort of left theory. Yeah, I mean, they're big chunks of meat left on the carcass. Right. I always just saw an opportunity. I did not waste it. Yeah, it was partly that. Can you sell those through your fish one? We were selling them last summer. And after I did meet up, we had loads of people come in saying, where can I buy these? Which I did. You're going to do that again this year. I think so, yeah, every year you have to cook something different. But obviously it has to reflect kind of like a meat dish to fit in with me Topia, I would say. Right. Right. So how are you hoping to sort of grow and develop your business from here? I think one thing that we've learned is to really concentrate on what we've got at the moment. I think in the early days I was maybe a bit too eager to grow, which resulted in us having to close our first shop. Just because I'm just one person, you know, I can't only get round as many shops as I can and staff, there's always something going wrong all the time, basically. A friend of mine just basically describes it as putting out fires. On the people side of us. I'm mainly on the people side of things. We probably grew too quick in the early days, closed one of the shops, really focused on what we have and that's what we tend to be doing now. It's focusing and really what we already have. Really dubbing them on your operation as it is. As difficult as it is, because I think we're quite a pretty looking fish mongers that fits nicely into streets. When you come into our development or whatever. Yeah, we get so many landlords all the time. Well, they offer it to you for free. We got offered a shopping dollar. village free for two years and help with fit out costs. You didn't fancy it. And I really fancied it. So why did you do it? That's part of the problem. So you're worth it. Just overreaching yourself. Yeah, yeah, somewhat. And that's because you've had experience of that before. Yeah, had experienced that before. And so how does that happen? I mean, because this is interesting for entrepreneurs listening about pacing yourself and trying to structure your business in a way that's sustainable and doesn't overreach. I think what was your experience? I think with us, we've not got any bank loans. We're all funded by our profit. We use our profits to reinvest into the business. We still not got any bank loans or any investment. So it's all-- We want to keep control of it. We want to keep control of it. And I've kind of hit a point now where if we do want to grow those things may need to come into place to be able to do things properly. But yeah, I would say that if you spread yourself to fin, then customers will notice. And that's kind of what happened. I always feel that our businesses are like a living thing. They kind of-- especially for me, this is how I get it. Anyway, they take on a mind of their own. They take on a path of their own. And they will-- every shop's different. And a lot of the time, the business would be screaming at you to change something. And in the early days, I didn't know that because I hadn't run a business before, really. You didn't know that it would be screaming at you. Yeah. I didn't like to change something. It just wasn't working. But I thought that I could continue and change it. And it probably-- You've done that successfully. Yeah. Well, by changing it, I mean closing the store. Which we did. Which is a difficult decision. And yeah, but it probably should have happened probably two years prior to that. Right. But you've still got two six fours. Yeah, so we really took a look at what is successful. And where the area will tell you if they want it, and we don't apply any different methods to different stores. So if it's not working there, then it's not really us that needs to change so much. This is a really-- I think it's a really interesting subject because if you build a business that's quite dependent on you and your service and your personality and your good name and reputation and you're there a lot, what's the next step? How do you grow it? Because if you have two shops, you're not going to be-- You can't possibly be in both of them at the same time. So you need to find people you can trust to delegate to, I suppose. Exactly. Which is the hardest part of people. You find that. Yeah. What's that so hard? I really don't know. I'll be honest. We've had some really awful people come through our shops that we've had a massive-- On your payroll. Yeah. Massive struggles with certain people in the business. And yeah, I think that in itself is what holds me back. But like you say, you need to find these people if you want to go around there somewhere. I'm sure we'll go around. Do you know what we're doing? I don't want to jinx it. But we've got really-- We've got a lot of people at the moment. Yeah. Well, maybe that's part of the journey just getting better at finding people. Absolutely. And judging people, deciding who to hire and who not to-- Yeah. Because a good hire makes a huge difference. Yeah, definitely. And I've definitely got a bit of a sixth sense for it now. And I know exactly what to look for. What'd you look for? I just think a personality is worth more than any skill. Right. I mean, I can speak for our business. Because you can't teach the skill. Because you can teach the skill. But you can't teach people to have a really good personality or you can't teach people to be engaged. So someone once said to me, you can't teach them under smile. No, exactly. Yeah. And our job is all about smiling. So that's it. So there's sort of mindset trumps the skill set, which is a souvenir. Definitely. So you've got to identify that when you're talking to-- or meeting them. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, do you ask them to identify? I almost just-- I asked them really basic questions. Because I start the interview normally by explaining to them that I understand that they have no fish experience or very little because I want to put them at ease, because I feel like they might be going into the unit. I don't want them. Most people will not have fish experience. No, exactly. And then why they want to work with fish and what are their expectations around for it. And then I'm also really honest about what the job is. It's not glamorous. It can be sometimes when you get-- celebrities coming into shop of you or whatever. But in a nutshell, it's shoveling, ice, and a lot of heavy lifting. And it can be really rewarding to the right person because you're constantly learning. There's a lot of fish out there that you need to learn about and to fill it. And yeah, if you get the right person who has an interest in wanting to learn a new skill-- Yeah, who wants to become a-- I suppose that you want to become a fishman going the full sense of-- Yeah, definitely. I mean, we had a guy come and work for us. He worked in advertising for years and was on a really good salary and just decided that he didn't want to do that anymore. And wanted to work with fish. And obviously took a massive pay cut. But he could have been-- He loved every unit he would be with. Yeah, he convinced me. And I was really hard on him if I'm honest, because I was like, well-- Advertising, showing off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't imagine. I'm jealous of your old job and you want to come and work for me. So that's it, Drosey. So this person really was looking for a career change. Yeah, definitely. And he did amazing, you know, and worked for us for about a year and a half. And there's gone off to do his own thing. And-- Well, a lot of people are saying now that jobs that involve working with your hands are going to be the jobs of the future. Yeah. And you're offering that to people. Yeah, definitely. And fishmongers do work with that. Yeah. And we've modernized it a bit, you know, in terms of we want people to feel comfortable and we provide all of the right equipment and things like that that make people feel comfortable. And the right training, because of like I mentioned already, when I started, they opened the door and went, go over there and do this, whereas I know what not to do now. Right. So you said something interesting earlier. You said that for customers, it can be a bit intimidating going into a fishmongers. Yeah. And I sort of identify with that. Because there's a lot of information that you may be-- So how do you make it more sort of user-friendly in that sense so that people come and have a chat? Yeah. How do you do that? One thing is how we design our shops. So we've got-- we're called Life of Fish, Fishmongers, and Pantry. So we have a huge pantry section that is just based of all different-- kind of like a dry goods section that is based-- So what do you sell out of there? So we sell loads of olives and e.g. we sell truffle crisps and-- So that's like a-- So it's like a deli side of it. And that will sit right in the window. And the fish side of things is a bit further down. With all the soaking wet taps and the guys in the aprons and things like that is a bit further down. But there's a bit of theater involved as well. Yeah, you said the guys in the aprons. Yeah. For the right person. You want to-- Yeah, I like a bit of theater. Yeah, so the right experience. Makes it more fun. Yeah. But one thing we wanted to concentrate on is that if we're going to be in neighborhood, if we're going to be in neighborhoods, then people may not want to eat fish every single day. But we need to figure out a way to get them to shop with us every single day. OK. So that was kind of how we came up with the idea of having a pantry section that people are going to a dinner party or something like that. They can come in. We sell these lovely Portuguese tinned fish, and they've all got their own design on the front of the box. And we get so many people coming in to buy things like that for gifts and things. All right. So you have to be pretty clever in what there's sort of accessories. Yeah, I think the days of just putting fish out and people coming to buy it is kind of shrinking, I would say. We have to make it a bit more exciting. Right. We sell things like dumplings and things like that, like Asian, Stank and Dummies and stuff. And then all of the smoked salmon and things. Right. So I've just been very fortunate in that. I've just been to Japan. Yeah. And I was told in Japan by-- someone who runs a cookery school-- there are 55 different species of fish around Japan. And they become very accomplished at catching and eating the same things as they apparently the Japanese eat something like 20% of the world's fish. But the interesting point he made is that-- and I'm not sure if it's true-- is there only five species of fish around the coast of Norway or northern-- the North Atlantic? Is that in any way plausible? I'm not sure. I've never heard that before to be honest. But can you figure many fish that we've-- I mean, I've been to Norway a lot. And they tend to only have around five or six species fish. So there's a lot of cod going on. Yeah. So it's a lot of cod. There's a lot of haddock. Pretty sure to get a lot of mackerel there. Something called arctic char as well. They have there. But I would say that it's probably more a desire of just what's more desirable to the customer is probably-- So this focus-- I think this might be something to do with the water or the sea. Yeah. Because that's obviously in the Pacific. It's different, totally. Yeah. So I mean, obviously it's a tough climate in Norway. It's freezing. And I would imagine they've got a lot of deep sea. fish there that they probably don't catch. But yeah, definitely loads a halibut comes from Norway. So that would be the other one. But that does have a bearing on the sort of business, doesn't it? I suppose. Yeah, I'll see the other sort of options. Yeah, they're probably well known for halibut cod, haddock and everything. So what's happening with, I mean, this big concern around climate change, sea temperatures, how's that affecting fish stocks? I mean, I'm asking the right person, probably unfair, asking. No, no, no, no, I know a little bit about it. Yeah, I think that's the, I mean, what can you share on this? At Selfridges, I worked alongside, well, probably one of the most amazing people I've met along my career, his name's Matt Kouchman, he was a sales manager, but he was also a fishery scientist. And we still speak quite often now, and he just, he just knows everything. So he's always there. Yeah, so he's always there if I ever want to speak to anybody about things. So what's his latest sort of take on things? I've not actually asked him that, but I mean, my take on things is that it's just constantly changing, you know, for example, macro is now being rated five, whereas growing up, I mean, hearing stories of people go to call, or used to be able to just drop a hook in and a macro would jump on the end. So it is this ever changing thing around fish and sustainability. It's important we get that right, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. And I've got one of the stocks to be depleted. No, no, and that's why we pay a lot of attention to what the MCS are saying on their website. And it's there. The MCS is what? The marine conservation society. Right. So people should look at their website. Yeah, they definitely, they've even got a really good app, a portal, and you can just check. You can literally type in any fish, and it will tell you the ratings. Yeah, as a customer yet. Oh, we should all do that. Yeah, definitely. And these are the things that, you know, fish mongers are not telling their customers, or educating them in that way. I guess they don't want to have the conversation. Which is why they should come to life for fish. Yeah, I'm thinking that you're a responsible supplier. Yeah. I mean, fish is protein, ultimately, isn't it? And protein is good for the brain. Yeah, definitely, especially the omega-3 fish. Yeah. So which ones are those? So that'll be like macros. Macro tuna. Do you sell farm oil in your shop? We don't know. Maybe you should. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have got a gift in section, actually, which we thought which sort of started off as a joke, but we sell sort of cards to place to be or something like that. It's got a pit for all of our eyes. So yeah, people people are interested in all sorts of things. So maybe. Yeah, no, it's so good. So in the future, it sounds to me like you're really focusing on making sure you're your fish mongers are fabulous. Yeah. But do you see potential in building the online offer? I think so. You delivered yourself. I mean, you'd have to get some other people to help you. Yeah. Yeah. And that's an upside that you see. That's part of it. I mean, we've got a three-year-old daughter. So any plans that I make now are kind of have to be, you know, quite solid and a bit more for you. Yeah. Well, that's probably right. Yeah. And I've taken a lot of risks in the last six years. Right. So you want to consolidate would be your thing? I do, yeah, but it depends what day it is. I mean, we like a couple of years. We recently we got off of the shop in Marlibon and it was just the most perfect location. Right. So I definitely think there is scope there to maybe expand it in that way. Marlibons are very popular shopping destination. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And we've sort of built a bit of a reputation around there by being in Selfridges. So someone should give you a good offer for any more guests and in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be good. Well, I sincerely hope that they do. Thank you so much for coming into talk to me, David. I always ask two questions at the end for my guests. They're the same questions. The first question we see on the wall because at Read We Love Mondays is what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning? Very early. Yeah. Well, I absolutely love Mondays because it's my only day off. It's really day off. As I mentioned, my daughter Pixie, she makes sure that I'm awake normally around six or half six. That's a line for you. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, Monday is kind of my sort of rebuilding day getting ready for the week. So I love walking and I tend to take my daughter for like a four hour walk and while I'm on that walk, I listen to a podcast or be with her while she's in the park and sort of recoup. We have good family time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That Monday is sort of dedicated to that. I'm assuming she's in a buggy. No, she walks for four hours. Oh, no, she is in a buggy. Yeah. We did have the conversation about a walk. Going to be an elite athlete. Yeah. That's good. So that's time together. Yeah. Yeah. It's lovely time. And I'll be honest, I spend the whole time just sort of reflecting on the week before and I really do have this almost an obsession with I wouldn't say I'm a perfectionist, but I really like to get things to a certain level of where I'm happy. And I think that's what I've worked out, rather than looking outside of what everyone else is doing. If I'm happy with how things have run the previous week, I'll have a good. No one cares about it more than you. Yeah. Exactly. So sometimes I can spend too much time on that walk thinking about that. But it's a good time to reflect and think about the things that say we've spoken about today, about maybe expanding or focusing on the website. Yeah. So yeah, it's a really good try and just put my phone in my pocket and not look at it and think about what's important. There's a lot of evidence that suggests that we shouldn't look at phones for the first hour of the day because our brain works differently for the whole day if we do that. I've had a more creative way. Yeah. So I try to do that too. Yeah, I definitely try and do it before bed. Yeah, it's funny you say that actually because a few years ago, for years I slept with my phone under my pillow and it just seems like such a strange thing to do now. Yeah, I try to keep it all in line. I don't bring the phone into the bedroom any more. Yeah, because even if you can see it. Yeah. But then I have a fear of being like that guy who runs Heathrow Airport and someone, and they're trying to ring you in the middle of the night because of emergency and you sleep through. This is it. Yeah, it can create a more of a new anxiety around that. But I think it's good to try and create a bit of distance with it so you can think creatively. Yeah. And then my last question for you, David, is from my interview book, why you 101 interview questions, you'll never fear again is where do you see yourself in five years time? I think doing the same thing, like I said, refining a lot. There is there is part of me that you know wants to continue growing different areas of the business, the shop run the shops run themselves now. I sometimes I can have three days off a week, which I don't know what to do myself, but yeah. So I do think there is you ever go out with a fisherman? I have been a couple of times. Yeah, I get terrible seasick, which I don't like. That's a shame. Yeah, that is quite interesting. I was insistently on a boat and I had to make him turn around and get me off because I felt terrible. Yeah. But yeah, we're doing a lot of wholesale now. We're careful about what we do in wholesale. So we supply a chain of sushi restaurants. We also supply once a month for every other month 500 lobsters, 500 pieces for an online meal kit company that was recently bought by waitress. Okay. So yeah, it's that. So you're doing retail wholesale and also online. Yeah. So you've got quite a lot going on. Yeah, a lot. I need a few more vans and a few more people. We can help you. But that's the thing. I think we're sort of obviously I'm very driven and I'm careful about the risks that I take. But I think that in answer to your question, yeah, the next five years either looks like what it looks like now or getting some investment and really, really going for it. So that would be a big decision for you. Big decision, yeah. I just want to be careful about like what happened before diluting too much or something like that. Yeah. Well, I wish you every success. Thanks so much for coming in to talk to me. I'm going to have a look at life of dot fish. Yeah, you know, it's by the fish and yeah, and I've learned a lot this morning. Thank you very much. Cheers. Thanks very much. Thank you David for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host James Reed, Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about life of fish or Reed, you'll find all the links in the show notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time.