How to Grow a Successful Process Mining Initiative with Florian Ernst

Mining your businesses back with another episode. I'm here joined by my friend and colleague Jakub. How are you doing today? I'm doing fantastic, Patrick. Thank you. That's fantastic to hear. Today on our show, we will be talking with one of our own Florian Ants, sales director here at Process Ant. And we are going to be walking you through three scenarios that a company can find itself in whilst implementing Process Mining. What baby steps mean and how to create a pull effect. Let's get into it. Sales often has a negative connotation for many people. Regardless of whether you work in a consulting company for a Process Mining software provider or are a consumer, in this case, a user of Process Mining tool, you often need leverage to get things done. And that's basically through sales and marketing. You can have the most successful technical implementation of a process in the world, but if you don't sell it both internally and externally, it might very well be your last. Therefore, we have decided to bring our new colleague on the show, Florian Erts. To tell us a bit more about the sales perspective of a Process Mining project and especially about people who need to collaborate to achieve the goal. A successful Process Mining initiative with lots and lots of value generated. Florian, welcome to our show. Good to have you here. Hi Jakub, hi Patrick. Good to see you. Good to hear you. For our guests and listeners, we did an episode about nine key people in the Process Mining initiative a while ago. And well, surprise, surprise, as we got more experience in the field, we realized that there is more than just a data scientist and module experts. And just to have a successful Process Mining initiative, it really takes a lot. Today, we therefore want to reshuffle things a little bit. After all, we don't want to just repeat ourselves. We want to go the next step. Therefore, we will present to you, listeners, three different scenarios where an organization can find itself in terms of maturity and adoption of Process Mining. And together with Florian, we will try to guide you on the next steps. What to do and what people to get involved to really achieve true success. But first, Florian, tell us how you're both here. Yeah, short about myself. So I'm a quite experienced guy from management consulting. I started with Deloitte after university as a management consultant in tech strategy, doing a lot of M&A projects. So that was quite fun. But then I decided to move forward and go into a more technical perspective. I started with Thelonus as a former cellar note. I'm driving as a customer success senior manager. Yeah, the value and the adoption. And of course, the journey for various customers. And, yeah, started recently at pros and as a sales director in June. So I'm happy to be with the team. Lucky that we have you, Florian. My question to you is when did you first come into contact with Process Mining? I first came into contact with Process Mining at Deloitte. So I think quite early the center of Process Mining was initiated there. And so was in contact with one of the founders, Oli. And that was the first starting point for me. But I think to be, when I be very honest, I got in contact with Process Mining. We have one of the founders of Thelonus because it was one of the friends of mine. Who was it if I may ask? It was Martin, Martin Clank. He was studying with one of my two of my best friends back in university. So we met at some university parties. And he basically talked into you. You should go into Process Mining. It's a very perspective field. And you were just thinking, what in Earth is he talking about? He noticed later. It wasn't like that. It was more like a coincidence that our ways got together. I do love coincidences. Florian, what is very interesting for me is seeing the path that you basically took, starting at Deloitte, then going into a Process Mining vendor in Thelonus, and then jumping into consulting again. Where do you see the difference between working in a software provider, so basically Thelonus, and being there as their help in a consulting? So I think one of the biggest differences is that on the one hand, if you work in a management consulting firm, you're kind of trying to guide customers through journey and try to make best out of a situation. And to, of course, achieve great results in short time. On the other hand, you're not very connected to a product or a technical solution or you're more looking from a more general perspective on a topic. Of course, with deep dives and all the details that are related to projects. So I was very curious after about six years in consulting to dive more into technical challenges and work more closely with the product. And that means, of course, implementing the product, using the product, but also marketing and setting the product. So you got to spend more time with it, more long term, and invest a little bit more of your own time. And on the call early, how many, how short were the projects that you were usually dealing with in comparison? Yes. So in typical M&A projects, which have done from a technical perspective, so guiding the clients through all the technical questions or technology questions that are rising throughout the project. So we have, of course, shorter projects from due diligence, making like a few weeks an assessment of a potential target and outlining it, outlining the results to the management. So these are like kind of short projects, but also like integration or post-merger projects, which prepare for like the day one, day 30, day 180 requirements, which mean all the requirements that are rising when you kind of merge a firm or carve out a firm into a new sphere. What I also wanted to ask is not only about the difference between working for a process mining vendor and a consulting company, but also the differences between the two consulting companies. Because after all, now you work for a mid-size company in processing where we are 50 people and are pretty focused on process mining, compared to a deloitte that obviously has much wider audience and wider customer base in terms of projects that they are working on. So I think one of the key differences, but also similarities, is that if you take out the scale from a big management consulting firm, the teams are quite small. So if you look at the core of, for example, the M&A department, it's not that they are like in Germany, a thousand people working in M&A, it's also a smaller group. So I think the size of the teams are quite similar. Also when we're talking about process mining, I think that we are in a very good size, which is very competitive in the market or even leading for providing process mining services. So it's very interesting and more focused, but also in a management consulting firm, you're always striving to create the focus for your career. So you don't widen up to a lot of different products, so you really double down on one topic. Now speaking about the growth and about the support that the process mining consulting company, such as process and can provide for you, we actually, when we were talking about this episode together as a preparation, we were thinking how to frame this and to put it into perspective and give some info how this episode was even created. We had recently our company trip to Czech Republic, Vista Petje, very nice. And as a part of it, we also wanted to do some sort of a team event, or let's say a work focused event. And Florian and Nico actually came up with this idea, and actually I don't want to steal your Thunder Florian, so please introduce what we were doing there. No, I'm happy to do so, and I definitely recommend going to Czech. It was an awesome location, so if you're into wine, please feel free to go there. It's definitely a trip. So the funny thing is the whole setup that we planned with the team was also based on a delayed idea or framework, which is called walking in the shoes. So from my perspective, as a sales director, percent, it's really important that our team understands who are the players in the game, meaning if we're talking about a process mining project to really walk into everyone's shoes and see what is the situation, what are their challenges, and what might their goals be in order to provide the best services that we can offer in the market for process mining. And as you started in the podcast, Jakub, it's not only thinking about data science or consulting services, it's more about thinking about what are the key roles on the customer side, but also on the technology vendor side and also on our side to really make sure that we think about and involving everyone who's required to drive excellence in the projects. Now, looking back at the workshop that you led, do you think that we did well as a company going through this or points of improvements for us? No, I think it's always great to see the teams discuss in a wider perspective and open up from daily tasks in their roles. So I think it was a great result to see everyone open up walking through the questions. I think for some of the people that's more challenging, because in your day-to-day work, it's not part of your task to kind of walk in other shoes, but I think it's a great learning perspective, and I enjoyed the team work, so I think it was a great workshop. I got some really good feedback from everybody that they really enjoyed it, and like you said, it really opened up people's viewpoints on who the real stakeholders are and what their motivations might be. Surprisingly, also to me, how blind we sometimes all are, because we are just so over-focused on our daily tasks. And it's obvious, and it's also not something wrong, but taking a step back is or can be extremely beneficial. And to get down to the discussion, what we thought was that we could basically introduce you to three most common scenarios that we end up in with almost any process mining initiative. Be it a new customer, be it an experienced customer that's growing, or a customer, or let's say a company that is trying to adopt the process mining way. And therefore, we have three scenarios. We essentially have a new customer that is just about to do a proof-of-concept in any given process, but for the sake of so that we can be actually as concrete as possible. We have decided to work with a process that almost everyone is familiar with, which is purchase to pay. The second scenario would be a customer that, or let's say again, a company, I keep saying customer, it's just my perspective of a consultant. Basically, a company that already has a few processes implemented and is aware of the tremendous value that process mining can bring. And they are really thinking about building a strategic program with multiple processes you're all at the same time, and they are trying to get their heads around it. And a third scenario is a company that has implemented a few processes, two, three processes, and they have a very low adoption and almost no value generation. So, let's get actually started with the first one, which I usually like the most, the Greenfield opportunity, where you are just about to do a new process. And I say I like it the most, because as you learn, and as you have the accumulation of the experience, you tend to do these Greenfield opportunities better and better, because you start from scratch, everybody is still enthusiastic, and you learn your lessons, how to do, and not to do things in your previous projects. You know, it's this 1% improvement in every project, and then all the time just gets better. However, Florian, explain us the situation, the challenge, and the goal, and then we just go ask you a bunch of questions. So, I think the situation for a new company who's doing the proof of concept in P2P is that, of course, it's a new domain coming up in their company, process mining, as a technology. So, there's the first demand from the P2P team, from the business to really check out what's going on with process mining, what can we do, what can we achieve. So, I think the situation is quite clear. Everybody is motivated and wants to achieve great results in a short time. So, the challenge might be to really get everybody on board, and achieve great results, because what does that mean? Who do we need to really create the great results? And then, of course, the goal is really to deliver on the expectation, and bring everybody on board, implement the technology, create some first adoption with the technology to really showcase what can be achieved in a sustainable manner. Florian, these are usually, let's say, I like to work lighthouse initiatives, where a certain department, in this case, it could be purchasing, but it could also be IT. It could be any other team, sees a technology, and they decide to go for it. They take their own budget, their own people, and they sort of do it as this little thing in their department. Do you think this is a right approach to start things? Are you already at this phase thing, maybe this should be actually driven by executives or should go even level higher, or do you think that starting small is actually a good approach? I think it's a great approach, because it's very simple, and it takes out complexity. If you start with a big initiative, it's harder to really initiate or create the spark. So I think it's a great way to really showcase the potential of a technology, but I think what is really key to create the right team setup. So I think the tech team of, of course, a business sponsor or potential champ who's driving the lighthouse project, and one of the XXs in a tech team, of course, with the operational team in the P2P department. It's key to really create the spark within the company. But if you think about, or you step out a little bit, what really also comes into space is how can the vendor and the implementation partner. For example, the process and then support this initiative. So with the right team setup, so to have a successful team, us supporting with data scientists, with consultants, as well project managers. And from tillonicide, the VE, and of course, also technical teams to really make the project a success. Now, one of the things that I've always encountered, or at least in a lot of the projects that I've overseen, is that it's not always easy to secure the resources from the employees for their time or even their money. I mean, because these process mining initiatives can be very expensive. So I always think that you need some sort of buy-in and a lot of it is, I think, tied to expectations. And how do you go best to go about that in this Greenfield approach? I mean, it's not always easy to secure those resources at the start, right? Exactly. So I think, or I'm a big fan of baby stepping, especially in the lighthouse project. So, I mean, is that because you have a newborn or is that what you're thinking about? No, no, in general, I think to really, of course, it relates to that topic. But also in general, I think it makes sense to reduce complexity and create a joint goal. And have a very common approach or a successful approach that steps us towards the goal. So I think here, it's really key for the implementation partner, for example, to bring in a right approach to connect the system, implement the use cases, validate the data, create the value stories or the value cases, and then roll out first operational levers to really showcase the results in the end towards the management. And there you have the end-to-end journey as a lighthouse project to really bring in the right stakeholders. And I think in the beginning of the project, with the kick-off, all the stakeholders should be involved in order to see the critical path and see where they need to step in in order to make it a success. Does this also relate to a scenario or two scenarios, essentially, very, let's say, on the edge, very radical, but not far from truth when, on one hand, you either have a company that has a very little interest in doing this sort of project, because, as Patrick mentioned, it's usually on top of the daily work. The resources are already pretty rarely, they don't have enough and so on. And on the other hand, you have extremely ambitious company that already has 35 different goals and use cases that they want to solve with this initiative, which is, you know, it's nice, I like ambitions, but it's also sometimes you have to put these people down to earth that, you know, it is doable over a long term, not over two or three months. And therefore, how would you approach these two different scenarios with, again, the great goal in mind, and that is securing enough resources to keep going after you are done with the lighthouse implementation? Sure. I would like to step in my former role as a CVM, so customer value manager. They're the ambitions, of course, to reduce complexity and to focus. So for the first scenario, my recommendation would be, of course, to focus on a core team, really making sure that the core team has the right capacity to drive the project. And of course, meaning so that the the the the team that is involved from the business side to do all the validation, because if you cannot trust the data, you have really challenges or a big challenge to present the results towards the management and also having some of the management, who's really leading or driving into the topic and also positioning it towards the other members and the management. So I think the for the first scenario, my recommendation would be to really focus on a core team to reduce complexity there. And of course, get help from outside, so you can also really drive great results with the resources from from telonus, for example, the VE, who's providing a lot of guidance of the value engineer or other professional service experts from telonus, who really support customers there, as well as us, who can drive the implementation, but nevertheless, we, of course, need buy in and capacity from the customer to really make it a success. For the second option, if you have a lot already on the table, my recommendation is still to reduce complexity and focus, meaning what are the cases that have potentially the highest impact. And of course, a shorter time frame to create the success, because time is also a very important factor to kind of outline the potential and showcase that we are really driving process excellence, for example, in a company. So time is important, and if we can reduce complexity there and there, our consultants help, for example, by doing that during framing or value realization workshops, where we really define use cases and see where they are from a value and timing perspective. So I think you can also there prioritize and really double down on the topics that you should cover in the next step. One other thing that comes to my mind, maybe it's a little premature in a lighthouse project or a proof of concept, proof of value concept, it's scalability. Is this something that you already open up as a topic in a first, first initiative when you are not even sure whether there is a right fit in this process mining approach for your company. And where you don't even know if this is going to be a thing for you in a year here and how to. So my perspective with the lighthouse project, if you start one of the key goals of the, let's say, the readout towards the management should always be the question around scalability, because if you do such a project with a commitment of the business teams, for example, the procurement team, as well as the management team. And putting money on table for license for implementation services for additional other services. You want to make sure that it's a good investment and of course it translates into other requirements rising from other departments. So I think scalability is always one of the questions where you see, what can we achieve in the purchasing department in a short amount of a few weeks and how can we translate that into other topics. And what would would be other striving initiatives or themes that we could lever in other parts of the organization. I mean, also a very important topic. I always find that there's a right time and place because I think I've been part of conversations where the topic of where we can now do order the cash and then we can do accounts receivable and production planning every thought about that. And everyone's at the start of the project like, well, sure, but, you know, let's start at like you said, baby steps, you know, so it is a question of timing, I think. Exactly timing and also when capacity and potential champs come into place. So I think it's also really important when you decide what's next to really think about who's really motivated from the other departments who wants to go into a project with process mining to create the next lighthouse and replicate that into the wider organization. Now, when you keep talking about champs by that, you mean the champions and how do you best identify one in your role? So I would say the identification of a of a champ is a process. So of course, in the initial team setup, it could be the process owner for the purchasing process. But it could also be the manager of this process owner. So it really depends and it kind of shows you on or on its way, it kind of more becomes clear who's the champ. So it's like a more behavioral topic, somebody who's like really like or buys into the technology and sees the business potential and also can translate that towards the management in a in a comprehensive manner and in the right context. So there is no formula that just just gives you the right answer. I would say it's a process to try to find the right. I always think thought it was like the people that have the most motivation. I've once met people that are citing documentation to me before the project started. I'm like, okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely curiosity is always a key. People that are very interested in what can be achieved outside the initial project. What other parts of the technology can be levied and also I think one other strong indicator is if they're really involved into the process mining community. So I want to be part of the community. So yeah, it's a very, very good point. And as a major effect, we did have a lot of these enthusiasts on our show before who are both of these things who have a good overview of their business and have been there for a few years to be able to drive things. But are also very enthusiastic about the technology and are let's say a very vocal promoters of it. And that's that's your person that you want to have in the project because it just helps you tremendously. However, moving on to the second scenario and there was already a nice driveway to the topic which was, you know, introducing new topics, new domains, new processes and even parts of technologies because rarely you would see that a company that just starts acquiring process mining as a tool and as a way we're working. Working would use all of the possibilities and technologies at the same time because there's just so many things that you could do in so many areas you could dive into. And therefore you start ramping up and you start having these thoughts, you know what, let's go big. Let's make millions. No, let's make tens of millions and that's the interesting part. And I believe that we will see more and more companies getting to that point as the whole field is metering. So there are a few we've had some of these stories on our show before we work with some of these companies and it's exciting because suddenly you're really talking big, you're talking about scaling. But on the other hand, it brings so many other problems and challenges and therefore Florian told us a little bit into it. Sure. So the second scenario, so meaning to rolling out a more strategic program, which is affecting or yeah, affecting the whole company. So what is the situation typically the company is looking towards some challenges or wants to increase margins or top or bottom line increases or even maybe talking about green line increases when we're talking about sustainability. So there are company-wide initiatives that are looking for potential levels talking about technology to really drive this initiative and then we're talking about multi million programs, which of course should create a high impact on the top or bottom line or even the green line. And have an effect or a strong effect on the whole company operations. So that will be the situation. I think when we're moving into the challenge, when we're talking about scaling in the first place, here it really comes into how to make the scale work. Meaning how to roll out in a quick manner in various streams to identify the right cases to identify the right stakeholders to also have a great buy in from the executives because we're not talking about one executive who's kind of sponsoring the topic. We're talking about the whole management board who's going to be involved because the whole company is involved and then next to it, we have big teams driving the implementations from the from the vendor as well as the implementation partner side. So we have also big complexity in program and project management. So we have a lot of people going on, which need to kind of be managed and also to add more complexity. The COE becomes so a center of excellence, it becomes even more important to kind of steer the whole topic after the project mode. So we have a lot of complexity. I would say that's the biggest challenge and to really create the effect that is to be achieved with the initiative, meaning achieving top or bottom line targets is one of the challenges. Yeah, what I also love about this phase is how it brings also different perspectives of this process, mining initiative, one, being ambitions of people because every person in the project, especially once we start talking about big numbers and big goals and, you know, almost dreams, I would say, every person have different incentives and also different ambition. And suddenly it starts also sometimes getting political because, you know, who's going to get the bigger buy, who's going to get more resources and who's going to eventually be rewarded for the success. And that's just something that's very, very difficult to learn or even describe until you actually get into the position of being in the midst of things. Yeah, sometimes I think Florian needs to navigate minefields in these discussions. No, it's I totally see the complexity that you're talking about, Jakub. So, I mean, when we focus on the goal of this initiative to really make the whole company better in the operation to achieve a certain target. For example, increase margin or reduce costs or, I don't know, be more sustainable in an operational way. So, it's really a big challenge. And here, I think the the pull effect that should be kind of a pull effect created within the company. So, we need a theme starting with a clear target saying, okay, we want to increase margin by this amount or we want to reduce cost by that amount of euro. So, if the management buys into that and set that as a clear goal for the whole company, this translates in the layers in the company into a pull effect asking the CEO to kind of help to achieve the target. So, then people get creative and think about, okay, what can I do in order to reach that number for my business area, and then we have a pull effect in the company. So, this is kind of the biggest challenge from my perspective that needs to be established because the other way around to do it bottom up and push it up from the bottom towards the management and have no effect there, no pull effect there from top. It's quite challenging and time time consuming. Now, where do we as a process money implementation partner fit into this picture? Obviously, we could help at the very top decide, I mean, we could be in on the board deciding strategic goals and how that translates. But like, where do you see us in in this pull effect? So, I see us in all layers. So, I like the visualization of a setup for success, meaning we have the executive level, there should be XX aligned between the company, the vendor and the technology provider. So, meaning like, pros and teloners and the customer, there should be strong alignment to really make sure that we think about the right questions and tackle the right topics. And then on an operational perspective, when we talk about the COE, the COE needs of course support in terms of projects that need to be delivered, but also ramping up resources. And there are also teloners as well as pros and come into place to drive the project implementation and execution, but also ramping up the internal capabilities on the customer side and really translating the requirements that we have into adoption cases that are being rolled out company wide. And then of course, also the tech layer to really make sure that we are strongly aligned with the IT to really have the systems connected in a good way and operated. And we have a sustainable architecture for the whole initiative to scale. What I also see that at this phase more than anywhere showcasing the success and basically internal marketing for all the stakeholders becomes extremely important. Would you agree with that? I totally agree because it might be ignorant to think that the process mining topic is the only thing in the world that's happening. It's not on the watch. It is. It is. I can make my world here flow. No, but typically when we're talking about strategic programs, there are other strategic programs on the roadmap, meaning other topics that are very strategic for the company and various layers for the IT. We're talking about S/4HANA project that use a lot of capacity within the company and of course energy. But also other strategic projects that might be ongoing or some operational excellence or maybe some growth projects where new plans are being built or set up. So there's a lot of things happening and this needs to be integrated into the whole journey. So we of course need strong advocates, for example, a champ who really creates a community for process mining within the company and also levels maybe externals to create the spark. For example, the value engineer to work with the teams on new ideas or do a hackathon on the company side to kind of open up the whole company. To create the pull effect. Yeah. I really liked what Tim McPeters once said in our podcast and that was that it's essentially about almost creating a company within a company with a people with entrepreneurial mindsets that are able to create this pulling effect and that are able to get things moving and as part of running a business is obviously marketing. You need to show what you are doing and that's the exact role in my in my eyes of the COE not overseeing only the operations. But also showing everyone else how cool and great these people who are doing it are and what sort of value they are providing for the company. I fully agree. I would also like to highlight the hackathon thing that you mentioned having seen a few I can only recommend it to everybody that's listening and is thinking about it hackathons are a great way to inherently drive motivation drive enthusiasm most of all to topics that people just didn't know. That could be done in a very very short amount of time right so if anybody's listening that's thinking about it highly recommended and it'll bring you lots and lots of value or since you putric open up the topic and I know Florian was driving one what actually is a hackathon and what is the what is the outcome and benefit of having one. So hackathon is a very cool format for companies to ideate in a topic. It could be a hackathon around sustainability but it could also be a more general hackathon saying okay we have a company hackathon and we just try to derive new initiatives in various processes and showcase what we can achieve in one or two days with extensive. Ideation hands on working with consultants and data scientists together with the business and then present in a quick pitch towards the management to showcase what can be achieved in the short amount of time and what impact can be created. So I think it's a really intensive format to ideate to showcase what technology can achieve in a short amount of time and then use that as a starting point to really further create lighthouse projects or create new lighthouse projects in new parts of the company. I would say if you're struggling just reach out to Florian I will guide you on this I haven't been part of any yet but it's what I heard from colleagues I thought it was pretty interesting. However moving on to the last piece and actually the least enthusiastic part which we should have probably not end to it because we don't want to leave you at the bed note. However it's a reality as well we are a witnesses of projects which it feels like is if they're dying so regardless whether the implementation itself was a success or not we sometimes do see projects that people lose interest or it can be as simple as you know people leaving the company and new people not being that much into the topic of you know continuing these initiatives. On their behalf and therefore we have a few processes in place and it almost seems like in the seems like in a desert these desert runners you know in the in the western film being and a report in in a process mining tool what do you do to bring it back to life. So coming back to the framework so the situation is that we have a company who's implemented one or two processes and there is after quite a while there's no really adoption and minor value. So what could be the challenge. The challenge could be that as Jakub said maybe some some parts of the team left the company or in another part of the company right now focusing on other topic so it was more a kind of a project based setup and not an initiative that was started or there was no ambition to really translate that into day to day operations. On the other hand could also be that due to strategic decisions the focus was reshifted by the management so there are other topics that the company is focusing on meaning also less traction into the process mining initiative that was initiated. So I would say the biggest challenges really to identify the core team again and to focus again on creating a pull effect and really driving operational measures that are interconnected with the company targets so really focusing on what are the targets of the company and how can we connect our process mining initiative again. With those targets to really support from top to bottom the execution and achievement of that goal so that that will be the overall goal right now and there of course very stakeholders come come into play. So it's almost literally going to knock door from door and finding your champion finding the people who would be in European and also responsible it's not just about who wants to take it but who should take it because it goes into their into their parts of the work right. Exactly and also showcasing the management that there is a connect but then there must be extensive work on how do we integrate the initiative into the overall target of the company and then asking to the management to focus on that topic with the right capacity and of course team again. So I mean a lot of these implementations and stuff and especially in this scenario can leave a bit of a sour taste in people's mouth and as we already noted before these topics can be fairly political and especially with one of these more stagnant projects that has just lane by the wayside do you think that's how do you navigate that. Especially trying to find enthusiasm and motivation and you are met with a slew of people who are a little bit sour and also like the motivation. I would say to to really create the spark also very helpful is to to ask for example the Silonus value engineer or us where we see the potentials to open up the teams again to really focus on what can be achieved. And I think if you are working on the topic to see what can be done because everybody is trying to be better every day at least that's my ambition I would say that's most of the people's ambition so if you see that there is a potential to be better as a company and if we create the connect with the company targets. Supported by Silonus and process and I think then we have the possibility to create the spark again that is necessary to drive the topics and also create the required adoption in the teams because I think for a day to day work it's also the context is very important to see that what you do is not additional workload it's really helping the company to achieve target. And I guess at this point what also helps is again the maturity of the whole field because there will be dozens of examples of companies and people who have been in these exact pitfalls before and I could point to probably a few episodes in our own podcast saying this was the person that has been through that. And the scene the end of the tunnel and eventually got the project on the on the right track again. So Florian to rap things up what I feel like the central theme of almost all these scenarios where where basically well one thing actually and it was having the proper road make with the goal in mind under which people can basically how to say like unified behind right. I fully agree and to really open up and yeah thinking about the team walking in their shoes to think about who are all the stakeholders the people involved in the whole topic not only focusing on on the own company. Even if you're a customer thing about who can be supporting my initiative from to loneliness and from process and all the implementation partners that I think that that is really important to create a great setup of people that come together and want to achieve something. And really also think about what's the ambition of everyone and what could also be a challenge for potential parts of the teams and how to solve that. So basically I see if I distill it it's like two questions for these people one would be what would he do and why should he care or she yeah yeah. So if you find yourself in any of the situations that we have listed above these three and you would like to see Florian work his magic and feel free to reach out to flow he will tell you all about his approach and how we do things. Where can people find you flow happy to do so so you can contact me via LinkedIn anytime but also text me via email. Thank you Florian thank you very very much for making the time and enjoying us on our show and also once again welcome to our company it's been a few months since you've been here and it's very good to have you on board. As with almost everyone extract some good knowledge from you and then sell it as my own. Thank you very much it was a pleasure amazing thank also you dear listeners for being with us and listening to our show we are happy to have you. And well as usual if you have any questions just reach out to us on mining your business podcast at gmail.com or just text us on LinkedIn and we will be looking forward with the next episodes in a few weeks of time not to probably three this time because we will be recording live at the ICPM conference so stay tuned and talk to you next episode. you