How to Get Yourself to Do Sh*t When You Don't Feel Like It with Dani Donovan

Hi, I'm Jen Barnes, and you're about to experience how to ditch the old ways of doing things, brace your neurodivergence, learn tips and tricks to function optimally, and love yourself neurodivergence at all. Welcome to the Self Loved Woman podcast. Hey, it's Jen. I'm so glad you're here because we have a really, really special guest today. I got a lot of things standard, Danny Donovan, who wrote the anti-planter, which is like, "I swear to you, the best book ever for ADHD." It is an ADHD must have for real, and I'm so honored to have her on the show today. So welcome, Danny. A lot, a lot. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, feel free to tell us a little bit about yourself. So let's see, I have so many, I've collected so many, I was like, job titles over the years now, that I joke that I feel like one of those, to Hellbedic assured, so it's like, "Nown, Ants, Nown, Ants, Nown." But to some, to some of the best I can, right? I was a graphic designer for 15 years, an illustrator, and who collected a bunch of art-related hobbies, you know, lettering and watercolor and all that jazz, and then made an ADHD comic, ADHD storytelling based off an inside joke with a friend and posted it, and it went viral. And so I started making more ADHD comics, kind of just describing my experience and using a lot of visual metaphors, ended up making some TikToks, and then stumbled my way into making a book called The Ants, I Planner, How to Get, Sit On When You Don't Feel Like It, and as a kind of toolbox of my own coping strategies that I've collected over the years. And now I have found it, and I run the CEO of a My Hell Company called The Antiboring Project. The Antiboring Project? Oh my gosh, that's so fun, I love it. We love it. Well in your book, you can tell you're a graphic designer because it's, I mean, it's very, it's got that very like comic book feel to it, but it's fun and cash, so it's not like overly formal. Like it's something you can dig into and just really use versus like, you read from cover to cover. Well, and I wonder if you tell us a little bit about like, at the beginning of the book, you talk a little bit about how this is like not a planner. In fact, it's not intended to be used every day. And so I wonder if you could like speak to that a little bit? Yeah, definitely. It's been really funny because people do, they don't know what to refer to it as because they, if people call it a planner and I'm like, no, it's the anti-planet, right? Because I didn't like the idea of calling it like a workbook because the thing is also, you don't have to write there's stuff you could fill out if you want, but you don't have to write in it to get stuff out of this. You could not write. A lot of people told me that they like it. It's too pretty to write in. Even though I have a thing that addresses that at the beginning. You have a whole thing. It's directly responding to all of the thoughts that I know you're already about to have about how you're not. I never stick with anything and I'm just going to lose it and what if it doesn't work and all this stuff. And so what's really fun is that I know that audience so well because I am that audience. And so this actually did not start as me again, try as with the rest of my career now. I did not start out trying to do this. The ADHD comics, I didn't do it like I'm going to make a series and post them like this is my plan all along for me. I made it to share with my friends. I'm the same thing with the anti-planet. These are exercises I've been doing. Most of them I've been doing for myself for years, for years and years and years. Like years before I started the anti-planet, I was already doing a bunch of these things. And so I just, but I kept, I kept forgetting. I kept forgetting that I did them and that I remember. And I'm like, oh my God, why did I stop doing that? That was such a great thing that I did. Let me bring that back. And so I started writing the down and keeping them in one place. And then one day I was kind of flipping through them. And I looked at like, there's a lot of stuff in here. Like I had at that point, I had at least, there was at least 40, like 40, 45, I would say. And almost all of those ended up in the book. And so I had realized that I was creating my own coping mechanisms, which is the thing that I sort of got from my parents, which we could talk about a little later. Yeah, but I wanted to be able to share those with people because I'd made a few of them into TikToks and they wait the hour. Like they did really well. And so people really want, I realized too, that what people really want is not just information and is advice, but people want to know how to make their lives easier. And people want to know how to make their lives easier in a way that's not going to require a tremendous amount of change. And the biggest thing that I've learned through ADHD coaching and through therapy these days has been that it is, is that by expecting yourself to change, expecting radical behavior change for me yourself, especially for someone that struggles to stick with one system, expecting yourself to change is unrealistic. And that setting yourself up for these cycles of disappointment and low self esteem because you're trying to be somebody who you're not. And realizing I am someone whose system is collecting systems. Right. That was that was an idea that was given to me kind of through my ADHD coach, Jesse Shapura. Huge tremendous impact on my ability to let go of the guilt of what felt like failures before, which now just felt like experiments. Right. And failed experiments, especially if they worked for a little bit. They are simply a tool that I needed in that moment to get over that thing, you know, just because I used a screwdriver once and the next thing I need, you know, I need a hammer, I don't need a screwdriver. It doesn't mean a screwdriver failed or I failed. It just means I don't need it anymore for the task that he had. Maybe I'll pull it out when I have a similar problem. That's a great analogy because that's so true, right? With ADHD, there's different tools that work at different times, but then also like, there may be something that works for us for a really long time and then all of a sudden it doesn't work. And it's not that we failed. It's just like, oh, we found something that works. And, you know, now we shift, right? It's really about being adaptable and in a level of self-acceptance and self-awareness is what I hear in there, which is partly why I love your book because it's not just like lists of tools, but like, I just have to tell you all her book, first of all, as a therapist, I mean, I just think it's brilliant because she talks about the different, feeling experiences of ADHD. But breaks it down into like, I wouldn't even call them chapters, but like, sections with like, tab so you can find it easily because, you know, with ADHD we lose shit and can't find stuff and like, we tab our book, but then we can't find the tabs. But, Danny, it's so brilliant how you broke it down into, and I wrote it down to make sure I could say them, but there's stuck, overwhelmed, unmotivated, disorganized, and discouraged. And then you have an extra section, which is super fun. And then, y'all, within this, like, she takes it and identifies like the different feeling experiences inside of that. So it's not just overwhelmed, but there's different experiences overwhelmed. Intimidated and overcommitted and like, panicking is burnt out. Yeah. So then you say, okay, if you're feeling overcommitted, go to this page and here's some strategy you can experiment with. And I'm like, that's brilliant. I think that, thank you so much. Creating that system, right? I really like systems. And being able to sort things, it is fun. And so I have a big emphasis on also user experience, and I know that that comes from my design background, where if you, so much of this stuff, right, I designed it for me. I designed it with me and mine as far as would I realistically, would I use this in the same way when I write emails, I'm like, would I keep it, would I read this whole thing? If I wouldn't like what, or what I, what I watched this piece of content I made, if I would scroll through it, if it was, if I didn't make it, why should anyone else? Why should anyone else read it, or why should anyone else use it? And so with this book, realizing that if I just stuck 165 strategies just in here and said, have fun, pick one, whoa, the level of overwhelm, I would feel the level of indecision, but I don't want that, right? So then I kind of, what I actually did was brain dumped all of these different emotions onto every emotion I could think of that could get in the way. And there's a ton that didn't make it into the book because they ended up getting combined with something else. Yeah. And so I was able to sort of figure out all of the things I could think of were why I would put stuff off and then found out that, okay, some of these all fit underneath this sort of like umbrella emotion that isn't, you know, angry or scared or those ones that we think of, but they were so I was like procrastinator emotions. Yeah, yeah. Realizing, realizing that if I could break it into, and even instead of just, I have 16 subsections that all of the activities are broken into instead of saying, okay, well, instead of 165 things to choose between now, you have 16 things to choose between. But the thing is that's still too many that's still too many to off the back, go to. So by going, hey, instead of that, you have five, yeah, and a five things to pick from. And then once you do one, it'll take you down into a little, you know, a couple one more choice. And then those choices are also like so if you go into, you know, stuck and there's difficulty getting started and decisive, perfectionistic and distracted for each of those right there, little bullets of like eye statements. And instead of being some generic like has difficulty, has difficulty putting things down or like has fears, criticism and mistakes. You know, just this side. Yeah. It's all eye statements. It's it's you read them and it says, I'm afraid of not giving this my 100%. I'm afraid of being mediocre. You know, I'm afraid of this or I feel this way. So when people read it, they can recognize these are thoughts that I have had. Like I don't have to sit here and do as much self reflection. I could just read it and go, do I relate to this? And if they are able to relate to it, then they can flip to that section. And now they've got such a a few to flip through rather than get overwhelmed by the entire budget. So that really was from a user experience standpoint, what felt like the best use of navigation compared to even just going like, these are all the games. These are all the challenges. Yeah. All the strategies. That is not useful for now. That is now you want to help people get unstuck. What they need to be able to do is figure out what is the roadblock and then what are, you know, or the resistance. I call it. I just gave a talk yesterday about I have a talk on this. How to get stuff down. We don't feel like it. Yeah. And it's about the toolbox, right? If you have three, yeah, three pieces of metal, you're zoomed out, three three metal bits. And I say get them in the wall and you take a hammer and you hit the first one. It goes in awesome. You hit the second one. It doesn't go in. You hit the third one. It doesn't go in. You're like, what's wrong with this? What's wrong with me? I did it before and you zoom in. You know, and one of them, you know, they're both screws at one of them. So Phillips hand and one of them. So if I had, and it's the resistance, your feeling is a different kind of resistance. And it requires a different kind of tool. And so if you can figure out what the resistance is, then you could pick the correct tool. It's, it's just so brilliant. It just is like I, I have a lot of books on ADHD. I know, right? You're like, I'll take the compliments any day. Thank you. That's why I want to talk to you so badly. You're the first author we've had on the show. But I was like, I've got to, like me with this woman because it's, it's laid out. And one of the things that my listeners know, and I don't know if I mentioned this to you, but I talk a lot with the people I coach and also my therapy clients that it's not only about the tools. The tools are important, but it's also about attending some of the deeper things going on. And that's really what you do. And in fact, there was even a part in here where I wrote it down. Let me see. It was, oh, yeah, you were talking about the thing you need to do is not your enemy. The thing you need to do is just something that needs to be done. And it was like maybe discourage, I neutral, neutral, it's neutral, right? It's just this neutral thing that needs to be done. And it reminded me I talk a lot with, with everybody about internal family systems, which is the type of therapy where we work with parts of ourselves. And all parts are welcome, right? So there's no bad parts. Parts are just trying to help us do stuff. And it reminded me like your book just weaves right into that where it's like, oh, yeah, this task is just a neutral thing that needs to be done. Not our enemy of like, you're killing me. Well, you know, well, and the story, I really think people respond well to metaphors and to storytelling, right? As you know, especially people with ADHD stories and humanizing things can really help. And so the story of the thing really is about this thing that feel can feel like a pain in the ass that can feel like it's getting in the way of you doing all the fun stuff you could be doing instead. It feels like an obstacle or a challenge or something to resent or something to hate. If especially if it doesn't sound fun, and a lot of the time that's so colored and distorted by our own fears and insecurities of bad past experiences and are self-doubt and all of these things that make that thing feel bigger and scarier than it actually is until you can really sort of like, yeah, zoom out and realize that right, like you said, the thing is that your enemy and that it's just try, it's just something that needs to be done. And that if you can make it fun, if you can make interacting with it and enjoyable experience, whether that is through making something social and doing it with a friend, whether it's turning something into a challenge or a game. If you could make it so it's less like pulling teeth and more like support to get it on its way, then you're able to get that sense of like accomplishment and pride instead of resentment and anxiety and anger and fear. So I'm just really glad that that seems to have resonated with people, because people are like, I don't want to do stuff, but I will take care of this thing now that you've got a little hosted note that I know, right? Has a little cute face on it. Like now I can, now I'm taking care of something. It's not about me anymore. It's like I want to help this little thing. And so I've really been able to feel a sense of pride that something like a story can resonate to where it can change people's perceptions of the stuff that they've been dealing with their whole lives. Well, it does, and it, it, it, too, it addresses the deeper stuff, right? It's not just about the tool and strategy, but by doing that, by bringing in this story of the thing or metaphor, you're, you're actually addressing the big feelings that are underneath, right? At one point in this section that we're talking about right now, you, you specifically say like we have so many, like you said, we have so many negative emotions tied to this that now we're scared to even approach the thing when it's really, like you said, not as scary as we think. And the pink shirt is like a fire breathing. And it is. It's all cute. And it is. I know. I know the graphics are amazing in, in this book, y'all. Like, it's just like, it's so cool. But, um, but it just, it, you know, so often I, I do, I talk a lot about, it's not just about doing stuff. It's not just about the tools, but it's about the stuff beneath it. And that's really what I like so much about the anti planner is it's not just a list of tools. Like you said, it's curated in a very intelligent way, broken down to like, almost like a, and I want to say flow chart because it's not like a flow chart, like the way I always made a flow chart. Yeah. I know it's made a flow chart, but it actually was not as helpful as the tenor ups. I found the tabs and it just kind of like a muddy thing to little, muddy things a little bit. But the other thing that I thought was important. So I would be like, this is so well fed out. I go, if you knew how many hours, but it's because this book took about 2000 hours. I got and and a few weeks, probably. Yeah, there was a lot. It was years. Break that down into years. It's, it's one year of full time, 40 hours a week for a full year straight. Yeah. It's all my, it was a big project. I was doing it towards the end there. I mean, I was, so I do not recommend this. And if I was to redo one thing, it, it is, right. I wanted to get this done as fast as possible because I had planned on releasing it. I had announced it at the, my closing keynote at the International ADHD conference. You know, I had pre-orders because in my mind, right, it was almost done. I had planned on ordering five, either 500 or a thousand of these is how many I had planned on ordering. And I, so the, the thing that I had made was really actually pretty simple. It didn't have, you know, the level of like illustrations. It didn't have all this stuff. And everything was watched less, had less less energy put into it. And I put it up for pre-order. And so quickly, you know, I was hitting 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 pre-orders. And I'm like, this is going to, I'm not marketing this. Like, I'm not paying like any amount of money to like get the word out about this. People really just need it. And I'm like, this is going to be big. Like, I can tell this is going to be much bigger than I had anticipated. And I am capable of making this better, making this prettier of making this more and not just thought out, but engaging because I don't want pages to look the same. That's another thing that I cared about a lot is a lot of books, right? A lot of workbooks. They have one table style. And that table style is utilized throughout the entire book. Now from a brand consistency standpoint, and as a former graphic designer that saves you time in energy that allows you to have consistency throughout. Like, that's useful in a lot of ways. But if you're making a book specifically to go, I want you every page to be its own little snack. I don't want anything to look the same because it starts to get boring. It starts to get predictable. And I, so a lot of the tables are completely different. There were some of them are like rainbows, some of them are, you know, are really illustrated into little, you know, some of them are like the distractions that's like their little shapes or the self-compassion pep talk. You know, they're, it's a one of my upset about what would I tell a friend, right? And they're chat bubbles. And it's still, it's still a table. Yeah, if you put lines through it, it's still a table, but it is a pretty table that, yeah, I want to use it more. Yeah, so I, I bring all this up because I knew I had that in me, but I had announced, I had announced the book and I had planned the launch when I was it's doing that. when I didn't have it on that level, but now I knew that's what I wanted because I had it was one of the last I'm so sorry this is I think interesting for apologies here no need yet. I let you do apologize here myself. I did hear you stop myself. Yeah, I heard so I have I have these truth or. Yeah, those are so fun. So I have I wish your are prompts and challenges, right, but they're sort of a lot of these things are framed in the context of games and ideas that people are already familiar with. And so I I was working on the layout. This was one of the last layouts I had to do. And I was trying layouts that was trying glittering and I didn't like it. It didn't look good. And I stumbled into this this look. The final one that ended up in the book. I'm like this looks so cool. And I put it in the book and I flipped through it. And I'm like the rest of this isn't as cool as this like it doesn't match. It doesn't match the level of of talent and time went into this one. And it shows. And I can't not use this because I like it so much. But I can't put it next to this other stuff because my brain is angry. Right. And so I really was like well now I got a pedal to the metal. Like out the ass. Can I can I get through this? And so I was working 10 to 16 hour days. Whoa. Or months and months and months and months and in it. And I that is not a. Oh my god. What a great work ethic because I announced that it was running late. And everyone was like, that's okay. Like we totally get it. We got 80 and I was I was sending out PDFs. Like here's what you know here's a PDF a week or ever. It started is every two weeks and every week so that you at least have something to work with. And actually I found out from people that they appreciated that happening because they started them interacting with the book with just one activity at a time. Yeah. Instead of even getting you know the whole books that they kind of got a routine of and habit of doing that. But I found out from people that they weren't mad. But I still I wanted to get it out as soon as possible. And so I was I was taking my meds and I wasn't hungry so I wasn't eating enough food and I wasn't drinking enough water. And I was hyper focused. I wasn't standing up enough and my body like really I stopped taking care of myself. And I lost a lot of muscle turn on my legs. The point that I had to start using a wheelchair. Oh my god. It was a while I was on muscle relaxers for a different pay difference. I've got so it was the muscle relaxers combined with the lack of activity the lack of exercise. Yeah, lack of water lack of it was a perfect store of then. I've had a bad nutrition, poor nutrition and lack of movement. And I didn't realize I was losing muscle because I wasn't moving enough to notice that I was losing muscle. So it was it was and so I've spent the last year now trying to to you know at the gym and trying to and not trying to I have been actively building muscle back up. But yeah, I come and say a cautionary tale for for working that many hours. But it was it was one where I get I'm not sorry. The amount of bills I feel for taking up too much space. I know right. I think you're speaking to the right crowd. Yeah. Yeah. So all that to just say that I'm so happy with the final product. I know that everyone I talk is self publishing. That's the other thing. So self publishing meant that I got to do this on my own timeline. It means that I got to do pick out. I want to I want ring banding because I hate having the whole thing. I you know stuff to write and I I want a pretty shiny cover that like catches my eye and get and I got to make all of those decisions. I got reached out to buy some I won't name names some of the biggest most major publishing houses that there are. And but they get to call shots. And I at the end of the day was like I don't want anyone telling me that I can't open up the page and the first thing you see is this little like very fate writing this is holy shit. I can't believe I actually finished this like I don't have to take that out right that it shows I think that people it feels so different because it hasn't been watered down by by stereotypical you know means of publishing. Yeah. I like thanks for sharing that story that is just first of all it's such an 80 stories and one. Well yeah. I mean it's such an 80 to story not only because it's a stories and one but just even the journey of doing it. And then I think that's really common Danny a lot of us like you know we pull something together we're like okay that's decent. But then like we we know we're capable of more but like yes. I got to what we're trying to get it done and I think a lot of us I like I know Danny is also so for those of you who are my listeners and you're in that camp with me who like. We did really well in school achievement was one way we masked like I think Danny's kind of in that camp of yeah. What gave you that impression haha yeah yeah right and so like for those of you in that camp with me nothing against the people and the other camps but that. This really speaks to the perfectionism like but not letting it get out of control but also. Producing something of high quality not just to get it done you know and it's like finding a balance in that is what I hear you still feel like an extension of me that was that this is so deeply personal this was not a book about something like I know I there's pictures you know there's pictures like little look I'm like wearing the exact same little. Yeah she already seen thing it's my uniform it's my Steve jobs to like I am I am you know I've got little like parentheses with like great out you know I tell us I spot of like this is my inner monologue like so that you're there it feels like I'm talking to you while you're reading the book a little bit I'm I've had people describe it as like it feels like I'm I've got a friend or a coach sitting next to me and like. You know helping encourage me or and also keep it real that's the other thing is I think that a lot of even well meaning productivity advice out there can be so unknowingly toxic because of that right amount of positivity that is sort of like this is what people need to hear people need to always hear that like you can do it and it'll be fine and you've got it you know. And I don't realize that if that's what you're saying is going to happen every time if you try hard you can do anything and in reality what that does is set me up for it well if I try and I don't do that that mean I am the problem like I have a defect like I am an issue instead of telling people as there is throughout the book of like like I've got to say on speed cleaning right and I love that one. That is to right get your get some tennis shoes on and get your drink and some like music or an audiobook that you like but to do go around to get all the dishes in your house go around get all the trash in your house go around get all the. Close and then it's got you know I then once you're done with that and put those away you know big little piles of things that go into this into similar rooms instead of like walking back and forth to you know different rooms to put them together and then take those to the rooms they go and then you can go from there but it was really important to me to say even if you just do steps two through four you would be so amazed at what your space can look like without dishes trash and close like honestly that's usually what it is and it doesn't require or. It just requires putting stuff in a hamper putting stuff in the trash take a stuff to the kitchen and so but I think that telling people that like even if you do an incomplete version of this it can still feel their success yeah well and you really go after like I think it's early in the book you really go after this idea and this is something we talk a lot about in my program but also on the podcast is like failure is not failure like it's just everything's an experiment like we should. Yeah it's just information like okay I'm going to try this or today I only have energy for dishes close and trash and it's not that you failed it's just like okay I'm honoring my energy today and also like yeah only have this strategy was effective for me today in this moment versus like I failed yeah yeah I think that well one of the things that I talk about in my the talk that I get the talk that I'm going to do. Again the talk that I gave yesterday is that like if you've ever played a word all or hangman or anything of that like if you guess the letter and the letter is not in the word. You don't think oh my god I'm so bad at this game. It's just that's that's not it that's not it and I have information to get you closer to what it is right and so yeah the ability to reframe that that swing it a miss as information as to what does not work. I think that that is right the 1000 ways not to make a light bulb kind of thinking can really be beneficial but I mean it is it can't get discouraging if you're like well I tried three things and none of them work yeah I suppose to feel like I want to bother trying anymore. And so that's why so I will say that the I would say the book gets kind of like less fun the deeper you go because it goes from stock and like difficulty getting started like let's turn things into games by the end of it right I do. you've got discouraged is the order. I don't know if people have realized that they're not that the order that the book goes is actually there in a particular order for a particular reason because discouraged is like one year at the, you know, it was the back of the book. It's you're at your low. And a lot of those are more self reflective things or mindset shifting things. There's a lot of the discouraged section. It's therapy. There's a lot of therapy. The relating exercises back there, you know, it calls out what type which things are brought from what areas of therapy. I've got some like, you know, and not as a substitute, I've met not as a substitution. Oh, no. Yeah. But also the knowledge that not everyone can afford to go to art therapy. Yeah. Not everyone might, people might be able to benefit from this stuff, but who wouldn't buy a whole therapy workbook with boring tape or stuff. So being able to bring people because I'm like, I can't convince you to do something that will make stuff fun. If you think you suck as a person, correct? Yeah. You have to get yourself out of that mindset, out of that way of thinking before you can consider doing something lighthearted to make the thing fun. And I think that people who haven't been to that deep dark place of like self resentment might not understand what you need in that moment. Because if you haven't been there and you're trying to tell people what to do, but you have not been in that deep dark pit of despair, then like you're not going to give advice. You know, you're going to be able to just go, don't follow the pit. Yeah. Right. I'm not following the pit. You're like, I'm already in the pit. You're like, I'm not going to go. Boy, I'm not going to be in the pit. Yeah. And I don't need your, your, you, what feels like not condescending. Not quite condescending. No. Because a lot of times it is meant with like genuine genuine help because they think they're being helpful by telling you not how not to follow the reality. It's like I say time to time again, like I'm not going to tell you not to procrastinate. I would be such a hypocrite. I wrote this book and I still, I procrastinate all of the time. This is more of a like so you procrastinate it. Here's what and to the point that you are feeling stressed out about your inability to do the thing because the price and we procrastinate also is because often it has worked for us in the past. Yeah. If procrastinating didn't work, we would never do it. That's right. It does work. It's that amount of tension and anxiety that fires up our and make Dilla and scoops us up into action, you know, interact. Well, it does. When we talk about the interest-based nervous system, we talk about different ways to like bring it online. Novelty is one, which as you were talking about your different like tables and stuff like every page being different. Seriously, y'all, every page is pretty much different. Like it's fantastic for the ADHD brain. It's like, oh, this shiny page. It's like, oh, it's in pencil that help. Like there's novelty to help. But then we know that another thing that can help our interest-based nervous system is a sense of urgency. And so what you're saying, Danny, is like, procrastination works because we're creating that sense of urgency, right? Like it just-- and also, I'm going to be so efficient with my time. Yeah. Because I could have fun, fun, fun, fun. Oh, no. I only have an hour to do this thing. And I get it done in an hour. And I cut corners to get it done versus I've got six hours to do this thing. And I was joking. I'm like, I'm a gas. I will fill up the amount of space that I am given if I-- God, the thing. My first talk I ever gave-- I actually started two months in advance. Two months in advance, I went to the coffee shop. I wrote 14 different aftalks and then one final regular talk. And I was giving it-- this does it feel right. I want this to give me the feelings of a really good TED talk. And this is not-- I want people to laugh. And I want people to cry. And this is it. Yeah. This is it. And I went-- but it was done, technically. And I went to go fly out to the conference in New York. I was sitting in my gate at the airport and my flight kept getting delayed. It kept delayed six hours. And I restarted my talk. And I wrote it in the airport where my flight was delayed. I finally ended up getting canceled. So I had to come back the next morning. Oh my God. I wrote it in the thing. Wrote it on the plane. Wrote it in the taxi or on the way to the hotel. And it was done. And it was great. And it was the best version of what I was trying to say. And I wrote it the day before. And so what I have now realized is that giving myself-- that's just giving myself two months-- it's too much time. It's really-- it's not conducive. So when I got stuck down to the last minute, and I'm all stressed, I have friends who are like, this is when you do your best work. This is how you operate. Yes. That would be stress-free. But you are just being a lot of this with yourself now. Correct. No, it's so true. I just did a launch. I did a three-day live launch. And normally I try and plan them out in advance. Because it was like two hours every day. And I make slides, and I have all this stuff. And I was like, yeah, OK, I'll get to that. And I just didn't. And I was like, oh my gosh, I've got like two days until I'm doing all this stuff. But that was the best damn launch I've had. Because I was speaking from my thinking brain was just out of the way it was like flow. It's like, OK, here we go. Yeah. You did it. It's just how our brain's clearheadedness-- it was total clearheadedness. And I was like, wow, I don't think this clearly that far in advance. Like, it was just like-- I think it's also because if you can get into that yet, like you said, the flow state where the rest of the world melts away because nothing else matters. Ready this thing. When I am trying to do something way in advance, other things don't matter. I'm trying to fit this in to all of the other things in my life rather than giving it my undivided attention. And so the best way to get-- in the same way that I get so much more done and better work out of myself when I've got nothing else on my plate for the day, they're one I'm trying to schedule out little blocks of time to work on stuff. Correct. It's so true. I did-- let's see, I did a presentation back when I was working with nurses at the American Association for Critical Care Nurses. And that one, they did not tell us way in advance. It was like two weeks before they're like, hey, we need your slide notes. And I was like, what? I didn't know I was going to have to do that. And so it was like whenever. But then I did one last winter for the PT Association in Minnesota, the American PT Association in Minnesota. And it blew. Because they wanted it way in advance. They wanted my slide house. It's like three or four months in advance. And it was like the worst presentation. My timing was off. And I was like, it was legit the worst presentation I've ever given. And I talk all the time. I do talks and formal and informal. And it was just like, I appreciate you saying that. Because I didn't know why. I was like, it was horrible. And I'm like, I'm still the same person. I was just talking to my friend yesterday. Literally yesterday, I was giving a talk for some librarians in Florida. And they needed my slides. It was like at least some of the advance. And I was so upset because I was like, why do I have to send this to you? Do you not know that I'm going to be making edits up until literally 40 minutes before I hop on the 15 minutes before our call? I will be making tweaks and making things better. Because I can't have something finalized that far in advance. So yeah, I absolutely get that. So the urgency and then the novelty and back to it's like the new thing, right? With the interest also, like things being interest-based. So that's just like, bring it back to Annette. Yeah, I had opened up the book to this DIY productivity. Oh gosh, I think I saw it. Yeah, that is still our little-- Also, it's one where you go over like, which concepts do I find engaging and motivating circle all that applying? It's got like ideas and creativity, gratification, humor, art, you know, chance, money, competition, rewards, that kind of stuff. And then it's what interests do I enjoy? So you know, maybe it's music or drawing or apps or home decor. And there's space to put like what other topics or interests you can be passionate about. And then there's space on how to like potentially like gamify them, different ideas. And it's on doing that as well as here are some examples of like accountability, betting or procrastination, hit list. And here's how those interests and those interests and those concepts were kind of put together in order to create these things. Now what's hilarious is I would have loved if I would have come up with this list before I came up. This was one of the last things I made. It would have blown. And I would have loved to do that. And now my most procrastinated to do is that I've been like alluding me a lucid so elusive. I've been putting them off forever and they've been on the run and I do to them as like little cartoon villains and that went when they're done and you'll like stab them with your pencil or you know, so there's a little hole through it instead of like checking off it to do this. And like that has like a physical gratification and like action with the stabbing it's got like that creativity novel, but it noveling novelty. Sorry. But it also allows me to to use humor and cartooning and drawing and and other things that like I find particularly fun. Someone who hates art might not want to do that, but they're going to be something else that they really enjoy involving kind of spreadsheets or something. It's true. Everyone's going to have their own way of doing it and that's really cool. I totally miss that because so I think we might have not it to this, but the deal with anti planner is this is not something you use every day, nor is it something that like you don't read it's not a book you read cover to cover. This is like no. This is like literally like tabs based on those five different feeling states and then breaks them down like we said with like different strategies and then as you said like as you go through the book, the feelings are the like there's more internal work that needs to happen along with the feeling state that's going on. And so yeah, so yeah, so I totally miss that because it's like you're just looking through and you're like, well, this one's really fun. And so that's the other thing that's really happy for ADHD is like you're not having to read it cover to cover because most of us wouldn't if you just listed out the strategies, right? Like you said, it feels like the thrill of discovery is still there. So I turn on so that this is like a productivity cookbook or treasure hunt. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you don't read a cookbook cover to cover. There you go. I want to make, I mean, I don't I don't know. People still use physical cookbooks, but but being able to go like, Oh, I I want to make a I'm in the mood to make like a dessert or something, you know, like you're not going to slip through an entire book. You know, specifically like what you're looking for. And so I think that that was one of the things that I struggle with with regular books is that if I don't, you know, when you started the beginning, you don't just pick through necessarily which chapter which has been a more useful thing I found over the years with nonfiction books is reading the chapters that interest me. That's what I do. Uh, necessarily, but like I've got so many books that are on myself that you know, I started didn't finish. I started to finish and I see them and I don't want to pick them up again because I have that feeling of like failure or I I'm not going to remember what I read last time. So I'd have to start it over like I have these negative associations with books that feel like failure versus when I open up a book and I just have to read one page and that one page is bulleted with headings and bold text and examples and pictures and it's very easy to feel a sense of accomplishment when that's all that's asked if he was to read one page. And I think especially with our, you know, again, across across the world, whether you've got 80 or not, we are used to short form content. Yes. And we are used to, you know, bingeable episodes or you know, flipable TikToks or whatever it is. And not to say that like none of us have attention spans anymore. But but when I'm looking to get something done, I don't want to have to use an entire chapter to explain to you how to overcome a problem that you're facing in this moment. I want you to get back to the problem that he and um, but I also know that giving people something that will be forever useful rather than like a planner that, oh, I forgot about it for a week. And now there's a blank page and I didn't get to it or whatever. And now there's a bunch of blank pages and I'm just going to not going to use this at a certain point. It's absolutely unusable because now it's, it's the next year and this is is completely unusable for, you know, the next six years or whatever. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. So to have something that's like you could lose this for two years and pick it back up and still find it helpful. Oh, it's helpful. It's useful for people who lose stuff. Well, it is. Well, and in the book, you even say like this is a book you tell your friends and family that you have in case you forget about it. It's in that section where you talk about like the barriers people self-defeating thoughts, self-defeating God and you're like, I need to help. Yeah. Go ahead. So I was going to say to help to help people, um, telling people your friends or family that so that when they hear you talk about how because we talk about our feeling, we talk about feeling overwhelmed or feeling stuck often or or whatever it is. And instead of them feeling the needs to come up with answers to our and solutions to our problems. And if they're not, you know, narrow, spicy, they may very well give you unhelpful of umbrella advice of something that would work for them that's going to make you feel more discouraged because they're going to give you advice that's not tailored to your brain versus them being able to remind you that you have a tool where they feel like they can empower you for finding your own solutions rather than feeling responsible for helping you fix it and then feeling like confused why they're, you know, neurotypical strategy didn't work for you. Right. No, totally true. And that's what I like is like it isn't this book that you have to like read cover to cover, but you can have it somewhere. I mean, you talked this might have been when we were talking before we started, but people having it on their desk, like just even knowing that we got asked, you know, and one, having on your desk just the visual of like, I got this is helpful. But then also having on your desk like, Oh crap, I can't do it. In fact, this morning before we met, right, like, forget what I was calling it for a while. I can't even remember, but like when you have an appointment coming and you can't get anything done before the appointment, I can't remember what I was, oh, I was just, I was doing that yesterday. Yeah, it's the waiting waiting. Yeah, there was something I was a worse or it, but yeah, anyway, and I was like, well, I can't get anything done. I'm so excited. Wait mode. Yeah, wait mode or something. I was like, I'm so excited. I'm like, anything done. I'm like, damn. And I was like, oh, oh, Danny's right. I'll just let that out. It's like, and it's just it's one of those kind of yandy things. But I also, I want to say real quick. And I wrote this down to make sure because the book starts with very like a whole page that really drives this home. And I want people to hear this. I know that we've talked about this on the show before. We certainly talk about it in my program, but your words is not measured in product in productivity. And I love that you say that because it's a book about helping productivity. And so often with ADHD, people try to tie our worth into our productivity. And then we struggle with productivity. And so our worth was like in the pooper. And yet you start the book, cleaning this out. Like this isn't about you becoming a better human. It's just about getting the shit done. You need to get done. And to do it because you want to not be afraid you have to a lot of times we're getting stuff done because we're afraid that we'll be judged or we'll be in trouble if we don't do it. Yeah. It's the fear. It's fear. A lot of our productivity is often driven right by, oh, I'm I'm going to clean up this area because I don't want someone else to think it's messy. Or I'm going to the bit my time sheet because my boss sent me an email and they're mad at me. Or I'm going to, you know, and so we're finding, at least I have found that those using those as motivators as negative motivators has been so challenging because I assumed that other people were valuing me based on my ability to live up to their expectations. And my expectations then got set by their expectations. So I just appointed them where I was just for myself. And I really think that people understanding that there's no visual in the way that there's a visual if your work is going to be done or if your your house is messy or your, you know, desktop is desktop of your computer. It's just like, you know, the algorithm is unhidled and screenshot. And you know, it's messy. That's easy to see. But it's really difficult to see the contents of people's hearts, right? And so many people who struggle with power activity are also the nicest people you ever meet. The most non-judgmental people you'll ever meet. The caring, a lot of caring people who, in generous people and the people that make you laugh, like there's so much and thoughtful and kind and authentic and vulnerable and all of these qualities that make up who you are and how you impact others beyond just what you've got done. And so I really think that people reminding themselves that you as a person and how you impact people's lives goes beyond your ability to do the thing. Yeah, it really does. And I love that you start out saying that because it's really important people, people hear that message, right? Because it's so important. And there is work to be done there, right? I mean, that's what the whole Discards section starts to point to is like the stuff, like some of this stuff. And but this is such a, it's such a great tool, right? It's like a recipe book, like you said, of all the ways you can do it. Okay, so the Bible for procrastinators, love it. Love it. So that was one of my favorite. I did want to, oh, go ahead. Well, I was going to, I think I I might have called it to the people in my program. I was like, this is like basically your Bible for getting shit done. Like that was what I called it. And yeah, in fact, I don't think I told you this. Like as a bonus for one of the, when my cart was open for my program, as a bonus one of the days, I was like, I will give you Danny Dunnevin's book. I will send it to your house. Like as a bonus for joining. Because I was like, this book is the like bomb digger-y. I'm like, it is like the best book ever. And I have people I've talked to who are like, it is like required, and not required, but required reading for my patients where like if they don't have the means to get it for themselves, I will get them the book because we use it in session when they come, they use it to point out what's, what's right. And I was like, I for real, you know, didn't see that coming. But I also, I've heard from multiple the like veterans, well yeah, VA, you know, from yeah, administration, who contact me and are getting copies for patients with brain injuries. Yeah, because there are people who, especially people who were neuro-typical, who got brain injuries, and now have ADHD symptoms. And are so, I can't, I actually, I can't imagine what it would be like to know what it feels like to exist in an operate in a world but this is not like your default state for forever. And then to have that like taken away from you, to then have to figure out how to come to terms with getting stuff done when you used to be able to rely on, you know, your brain to dependably like help do that for you. And so for people who, and I've heard from some of the people who had, you know, brain injury to are able to say that like, I have hope now where I had felt like I had lost my ability to believe that I was capable of doing anything. And I'm like, ah, you know, crying or crying over in the corner but like I'm so glad it means so much to people because it meant a lot to me. And again, when you make something that like you are passionate about because you made it for yourself because it helped you. And even if no one bought this, I would still, you know, use the shit out of it because I made it for me versus when you make something for other people that is not necessarily something that you would use or that is directed at you, you're gonna be a lot less entuned with what people need and spend a lot less time on the planning process before the content even started. Right? Yeah, it's totally true. Yeah. I just, I love that you're helping so many people with it. And I, it's really fun that you can, I gotta thank my parents. Also, well that's what I really, you told in your book, you like thank your parents for, you put it something like, for using games and challenges to help me learn, which by the way, as you know, Danny, but in case the rest of you don't know, one of the ways that we work with our interest-based nervous system is to challenge your competition. And so like your whole book creates challenges and games and stuff. But okay, so like, your parents didn't know you at 80, she, 'cause you told me you were diagnosed in college. So how did they know like, to create, like tell me about that. They created me. My mom, my mom, it's with great asked my teacher if she thought I could have ADHD and my teacher told her, she can't have ADHD, she's too smart. Oh yeah, that's, which out the, right up, name, less, less, anyway. But so my, my parents have a lot of the same struggles that I do, but they knew from a young age that I, my brother and I both respond well to being able to turn things into games. So like when I was, my mom was, I was too, my mom was pregnant on bed rest with my brother. And I was learning my alphabet. And she had, you know, those little magnets that were letters. Uh-huh. That everybody, I feel like everybody had that's like, yeah, you put them on the bed, she's the font. They're like, oh, a field font. Yeah. And so you put them on the fridge, she would be on the thing and she's like, go get me a B and it's like, run to the, you know, fridge and bring her back a B and she go, go get me an F. And, you know, I'd run the fridge and bring her back an F. And so, yeah, right, rather than, right, and my brother that didn't work as well for him. Like he didn't know what that he was not interested in learning his alphabet that way, but he loved baseball. Yeah, he was like a little three or four year old, like a lot of, for your love baseball. And he had this big blue bat and they made, they made a big little, a little bit of big posters with just a sheet of paper, A, B, C, D, and they lined the hallway with them. And they, they would say Trevor, go point it at R and he would go and touch the R and they go, yep, time to bat and he'd run back and he'd get to swing the little bat in the hallway and hit the little, hit his little ball in the hallway. And so, and one of my, my stepson was learning his alphabet. He didn't know of his A, B, C's, but he knew the names of all a hundred did you want Pokemon? Oh my God, like Pokemon, right? And I'm like, how do you know all of these Pokemon and you don't know your A, B, C? And so I took my iPad and I didn't have it in me to try, just like attempt to like draw all of these by hand. Yeah, I put, I set it as the background of my iPhone, or background of my iPad, so it wouldn't move. And then I put a piece of paper over it and traced the Pokemon. And then I took, he was very sensitive about like, it doesn't look right with the colors. So I actually took the correct colored markers and did the outlines of them. And then I put them down and he got to pick, he had like a sheet of paper where he would test out the markers and was like, that's not the right color. That's the right color. And then he got to color in the lines. And so it looks really great because the outlines were already done. So he got like, they looked amazing, right? And they were the correct colors. And I had the first letter of each of these Pokemon like really big. And so then we would, I'd hide, we'd hide the Pokemon all over the house and we'd play hide and seek. And he, I made a few different games, you know? And he would go and, you know, found Bulbasaur. I'm like, Bulbasaur, what is that start with? He'd go, B, and I'm like, what sounds that make it? He goes, Buh, Buh, Buh. And then I go, go put it in the B house. And I have little, you know, things with B is he'd have to go put it in the house. And then we had somewhere we'd like to battle each other. And we'd have to tell him what letter I started with first. And so really that like, and now he's in, now he's the fourth grade and he's still, you know, really like drawing, but he's having a hard time memorizing, you know, the revolutionary war, go cat out. And so I'm like, I'm going to read this to you. I'm going to have you listen to what it is. And I'm going to give you a big flash card. And I want you to draw me a picture, draw me a cartoon of this, of this thing I just told you. So he'll draw a little cartoon and then I'll have him, you know, right on the back, like what it is. And now write out the names. And then I'll, and then I'll do a matching game where I like, now match up these things to the drawings. And then he'll do that. And then I'll hold up the drawings and then I'll say, tell me what this is. And I'll tell me what it is. And then eventually what's the thing where I hold up just the word, I say, tell me what this is. And so being able to utilize interest, you help kids learn is such a, yeah, he comes back and he gets, you know, 96 on his test. Oh, and when we had gone through the study guide initially, he got like a 20. So, right, right, right, right. And it's been. It's been a thing except that that has existed in me since I was younger because my parents did do kind of interest based learning. And so being able to utilize that into how can I make interest based productivity, it's probably helpful. It's just brilliant. That's just a brilliant approach to helping yourself, how your parents helped you and your brother and then how you've been able to pass that on to your stepson. I just, it's just so beautiful and it really recognizes like what people, like not all people learn the way our schools teach. In fact, probably most people don't learn the way our schools teach was a whole nother episode. But especially ADHD brains, right? Right. Like asking me to sit down and just listen to you. And remember the thing that you told me verbally because they don't take notes yet. Yeah. Right. Yeah. They're young to be taking lessons. And I don't learn through listening. Like I have to pay a super hard attention when you're talking to make sure I'm taking what you're saying. But like, I don't know if I write it. I need subtitles, man. Yeah. Like I've got art and processing issues. I can't say it. I can't handle. If you want me, you know, to listen to your verbal instructions, I need to take notes or you're not going to be happy with what you get back. Totally. I do. I really think that people being able, so I think people being able to do that is so, is so helpful because it, again, empowers kids to be able to recognize that you are not a failure because you don't understand the way that your teacher taught you. You come up with your own way to learn if that's just not working for you. Yeah. And so I really think that that's the attitude that I was able to kind of bring to this project, which was the, the attitude shift of if something, well, my dad's also an engineer. I'm an engineer. And I really think that that does. to speak to the, and you know, he built our deck scrolling up. He helped, I actually entered my brother was, I was a girl scout, my brother was in Boy Scouts. And in Boy Scouts, they got to do like the Pinewood Derby, like they got to do racing thing. - Oh, he's a-ha-ha. - And I was always like, I wanna do that. We don't get to do that in Girl Scout. And my dad got me an extra kit and I made it, I made one and I went there, I went anyways. And they saw that I had it and they let me, you know, let me race with everybody. And I got an honorable mention ribbon, right? The honorable mention ribbon, I didn't get first segment of it, I got the honorable mention of, bunch of the boys were all bad. I still have that ribbon. And I used to hang it in all my cubicles as a, right, like don't let them tell you what you can't do. - Love it. - Don't let someone else's like idea of who's allowed to be in charge of what thing, you know, me that you're limited to those things. And I know that my dad, again, being supportive in those moments was, and you know, not just saying, like, oh, you can't do it 'cause that's, you know, for Boy Scout. He was like, I'll go get you another, I'll get you a kit. - That's, and, and him, also, right, like with the building of the decks at our houses, the building of his own solutions, really did teach you that like, if you want something that isn't there, you could just make it. - I want that. - So that it just exists. You can just make it, and I think that that attitude, that's really an attitude. - Yeah. - Not just, I have to go find it. And oh, I can't find it anywhere, so I can't have it. It's an initiative and an, I think that's really empowering that. - It's a super empowering thought, and it's clearly what you did with your book. And I just, I'm so grateful that you came on the show today. This is so great to talk to you. So I know, right? I'm like, um, anyway. So anything in the works that you want us to know about? - Yes, so this is, I haven't officially announced it anywhere, but I have decided that I'm okay with, with mentioning it on the occasional podcast. I am making a video podcast with my husband, that's called Struggle Busters, how to get shit done when you don't feel like it. And the episodes are all going to be about, like, each will be a different boring adult's task. So our first one is, we've got, is doing laundry, we've got doing dishes, we've got going to sleep when you don't feel like eating vegetables, when you don't feel like it, and we'll break down why it's hard, what creative, specific, creative, out-of-the-box solutions might actually help, and then we're gonna take an experiment for what we're gonna try, so we can put our money where our mouth is, and then come back the next week, and let everyone know how it went, and what worked and what didn't work, because I think it's also gonna be important for people to hear what didn't work. I want people to hear someone that they potentially, look up to telling them, "I did this thing that I talked about, and it didn't work, and here's why." And that thing might have been, "I didn't have time," or, "Yeah, all this other stuff came up," or "I didn't have energy," or "It didn't sound fun anymore," and I think that people need to hear that, and be given that permission of, "Oh, everything doesn't work for them every week." So this advice in this podcast is not about, telling me what to do, and expecting it to all work out. So I'm hoping that that relatability, and the stories that we're gonna get to tell, and the realistic expectations versus a, like, general life advice, 'cause the idea is then we're eventually gonna have this big list of activities, so it's like, "Oh, I'm having a hard time with this one thing, "let me go see if there's a struggle, "busters episode so that they can come back "and listen to it." 'Cause it's like the anti-planner, but with a video podcast. I love it. Like, I'm so excited. Like, I can hardly wait till you do laundry and going to bed when you don't want to. Like, those are my two. I can't, for me, it's putting away laundry, but we're like totally way beyond, yeah. Yeah, like, we go, I don't know where to those. We've got, we've got, we've got, you know, grocery shopping, and like, we maybe have a list of like a hundred, we're gonna try and pair it down, but, you know, we've got planning a date night. We've got like a laundry list, if you will. (laughing) It was really fun brainstorming all the stuff we never feel like doing. And brainstorming the gripes that go along with each one. Because in the same way that the anti-planner is the emotions are phrased, I am having a hard time with this. I don't wanna do this. The gripes that we call them, the gripes that we go through of the problems and the roadblocks that we come up with each one are still gonna be phrased as, I don't have enough energy or it's really boring. Like, it's still phrased in that first person perspective so that people will hopefully end it as relatable and easy to digest as the anti-planner. That's cool. So, so, Danny, you've got your book, the anti-planner, and it's available on your website. I know that, right? And yes. And there's a clean version also. There's no cursing version. Oh yeah, 'cause she's got some swears, which are delightful. But, but not excessive, but they are there. They are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not obsessive at all. It's just every once in a while and it really like, you're like, yeah, that's correct. It's that. Emphasize it. You're very well placed. But what's your website? So people who are listening and then we'll put it in the show notes. So either adhdd.com, which is adhdd.com, which is adhdd and then my Danny, Danny, Danny, or Danny.in.com will also take you there, but people d-a-n-i-d-o-n-o-d-a-n. Yeah. They'll misspell one or both of those a lot. So adhddd was often easier. But yeah, I've got my adhdd comics. I've got my TikTok. A lot of my TikToks there and people don't realize, they're like, oh, I don't have TikTok. They're embedded. You can watch them. You've got TikToks. So cool. On my website. Like for people who want to see my top ones, but don't want to sign up for TikTok, you can watch them on my website. Yeah, well, if I remember right, I think I sent up for your news-- why no, I sent up for your newsletter, but I think I've gotten emails from you with the PDFs for different things, right? Because you've got PDFs on your website with different-- Oh, oh, right. Yes, that is new. That just launched-- that just launched with Black Friday. Yeah, so there's a now a digital bundle of 30 PDFs. It's not the entire book. It is not the whole book, but it is 30-pd digital PDFs you can get on my website as well. And those are antiplanner.com/shop. OK, so-- Yeah. Yeah. And so, "Sash Shop" will show the anti-planar and the clean version and the bundle collect. If you get-- if you buy the anti-planar, you should also get the bundle email to you for free. So-- Oh, that's why I'm getting it for free. I'm-- Yeah. Oh, my God, you're free. And this is really great. I see. It's not just because I joined you. I don't want to make people buy it two times. Yeah. No, I got you. I got you. It's because I see, because I bought your book. OK, awesome. Yeah. But OK, so how will we be able to find your podcast? So-- I love that. Right now, I just started our first YouTube channel, which is the anti-boring project on YouTube. And so we-- and actually-- actually, no, no, no. I just realized I signed up. I actually signed up for all the struggle busters accounts. Oh, I can't help. Normally, I had to tell people it to go to my YouTube channel. But if you look up "Struggle Busters" on YouTube, "Struggle Busters" YouTube, let me make sure that this is nothing. Yeah. Yeah. I will send you-- I'm going to send you a link. And then sit you on the show notes. And then we'll put it in the show notes. That is that way we can have some followers. There's nothing in there yet. But stay tuned. Stay tuned. Because this is a big deal for those of us with ADHD. This is like complete brilliance. So, Danny, thank you. So incredibly much for me on the show. It is a true honor to have you here. Your book is amazing. And I'm truly as an ADHD woman grateful for it. But also as ADHD coach and ADHD therapist, like, oh my gosh. It is just-- so thank you so much for being here. Absolutely. This has been great. So awesome. All right. Thanks. So, y'all, if you're not following yet, make sure you follow the self-loveful memory podcast. And be sure to share, especially this episode. All right, I'll take care.