How to Get Your Website or Landing Page to Convert With Irwin Hau

Look, if you're invisible, nobody's buying from you, referring you, or even remembering you. And like it or not, everybody today has a personal brand if you're in business. The question is, is are you controlling yours or is it controlling you? Welcome to your Marketing Tube podcast, where every week we dive into simple strategies, talk to guests to make your business stand out and stay on top of mine. So if you're ready to stop chasing business and start attracting it, instead, let's get rolling. And what's up ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the your Marketing Tube podcast. Folks, each and every week that you're tuning in, we're talking a lot about creating content, creating a lot of attention, bringing a lot of awareness to your brand. But what actually makes someone take action? I brought a lot of ads, a lot of video ads will create 50, 60, 100,000 views a month, but that's great to have all of that, all those eyeballs, but how do you actually get them to sign on the line that's dotted or take out their credit card, depending on what business you're in. How do you get people to take action and move? We brought on an expert from across the world. He's on either side of pond. I think it's 7 a.m. by him right now. So I'm really sorry about that. It's only one o'clock in the afternoon here. We do appreciate you coming on board because this is a very important topic. And I want to go out without further ado and go ahead and introduce our guest. Everyone, want you to come in and say hello, tell people who you are. And I got all kinds of questions for you. Tell us what you do. And we're going to talk about today. Yeah, thank you. Thanks Mike and stuff and thanks for having me as well. Yeah, my name's Irwin. Irwin is in Steve Irwin. If in Australia, the crocodile hunter, the legend, but I think his son Robert Irwin was doing a little bit better as well. I think he won a dancing with the stars there. But yeah, no, I think my nickname here is the website Whisperer. And I think we just realised that, and here's a fun fact I've come to realise as I keep talking to different people. Have you noticed that all forms of marketing always point back to the one and the same thing, which is a website? It's great to get attention. Like you say in video and videos actually one of the best ways to get attention. But without taking action, what's the point? Sometimes brand awareness is great. But as a business, the aim is to make that phone ring. And that's the hard is to understand the process of how to do that. And there's many steps to it. And we don't want to make sure that we don't miss a step. It's kind of like going on a first date. You don't want to just go straight to the hey, can we get married? It's hey, you know, I've got to wear that, you know, a nice outfit. Get that hair cut. That's the attention at the start. We all want that, you know, second date or marriage. But there's so many steps in between. And we've got to fill in those gaps and happy to talk through each one of those. And if you do it logically and simply, I think not only can you get a lead, I think we can actually find a date today. So that's pretty much it. I shoot for the waiting proposal, dude. Yeah. Let's, you got this figured out. Dude, let's get into it. Like it sounds like we got a framework we're going to talk through right here. I'm gonna shouldn't hear it. How do you, where do you want to start with this? Because I got all different questions. I want to take you off path. But like I get a get attention. I'm running ads. Someone lands on my website. Okay. All right. That's the first battle. Agreed. Like you got to get you got to take them off wherever they're at, whether on Facebook and you're running an ad and you're interrupting their day or they're looking for you on ppcl say wherever the lead source is. They land on your website. Okay. What is the most important thing that have happened right when someone lands on the site? You got their attention. They're there. But you only have it for a couple of seconds. And to keep to your dating analogy, you either make her laugh where you turn her off. Right. So how do you make them laugh and stick around? Like what's the key? Now 100%. Okay. Let's play the psychology first before we go into the action. Because you don't understand the principle. Then you get why it works and stuff. Put it this way. Any, if you actually look at human behavior, if you look at the science of how people do things, there's all the three things I always say heart, head, and hands. So let's go to it logically and stuff. So if I'm sitting on that date using that dating analogy, there is an emotional engagement first. We don't go into the brain first. We go into the heart first. So there's an emotional connection. So I look across the room. I go, wow, and I remember seeing my misses of him. I married for 19 years this year and I looked at him. I said, wow, not because of just the players. It was heard the way she dressed, the way she swished her hair, all that. That was an emotional feeling. The first words, how it sounded, as I said, so it was both visual. It was heard. So emotion. So heart first. Second is actually the hair. Because once we sat down past with the usual banter, we kind of got into it. Not like it's an interview, but let's be honest, we went through the rational way. Who are you? What do you do just to really understand the key behind it? Is this guy true? Like, sorry, his little profile. Does it really match up? Because the profile got my attention. I don't want to find the real substance behind this person. So you're asking questions. I'm getting grilled a little bit. But hey, I didn't share my whole life story. I was just getting to the best bits. And so that's the head, the rational part, the part that actually to me is where we go from, I don't know if I trust you to, okay, let's pick a couple boxes. And when the heart and the head match together, that's when you get to what I call the hands. That's when you can make me do anything. Because if the heart and the head connect together, the hands do whatever you want it to do. So in this case, you're taken, we go out for a second date. But on a website, it's usually, hey, let's get someone off the website onto a telephone and an email form or, you know, book a demo button, whatever it is and stuff to then make that call. What happens on that second date and onwards from there? That's your business buddy. But from there, I want to make sure that we get the heart, head and hands moving. So the question is, how do we do that? And that's actually my surname, how, by the way, on how. How do we do it? So it's in my name, I've got to tell you how. So there are four key things after studying websites for 17 or building websites for 17 years and staying for two decades that we always ask the same four questions. It's almost like a framework for going on a date. Number one, who are you? Number two, what do you do? Number three, why should I choose you and the four? Can I have your phone number? You see, the problem is, oh, number one, it's so basic. It's very common sense. We're not here to do anything else, but to do what we call sales, which is knowing, liking and trusting. So first up, who are you? Who are you? I use not just going on my name's Irwin, but it's who I am and what is the problem that I solve? Not what do I do? No one cares that you make websites or you make them convert. They want the outcome and the benefit. Why should I go, that's the result, right? So who are you? What do you do? So tell me about the services that you do, but in the frame of the customer first, stop talking about yourself and to what the customer wants. The third one, why should I choose you? That is the single most important piece of the four steps is why should I choose you? Because every single person looks exactly like Irwin does what Irwin does. Everyone makes websites, everyone does really say everyone's the same, but why should I pick you? What is your unfair advantage? And also, I have a think about why should I not choose you and write the opposite. You know, something like you really want to focus on what makes you so different. And the last one is, yeah, how do I get in touch? Do you know how many websites don't have clear phone numbers, emails, working forms? I want them to say forms of working forms. Yeah. It's kind of like going on a date and you give out the wrong phone number, you forget to ask for a phone number. Well, at the end of the date, you've just got it. Thanks, cheers, bye. And you're like, what? Yeah, nice to meet you. And it shocks me. Why did you spend all that time preparing yourself, looking amazing, making a great website, getting all these videos done, if you don't know how to close, or you don't even ask for the close at the end. I'm, you know, here's my number. It's just on the side there. It's my business card to throw it on the table. And how many times you walk doing it, and you see your business card still on the table, and you're like, what the guy to even get my details? Yeah. So who are you? What do you do? Why should you choose you? How to get in touch? And that third one can I tell you is the biggest one. That's the way the social proof comes in. Because there are everyone is saying the same thing nowadays, doing the same. Like everyone's on time, on budget, on scope, great customer service before and after. Everyone has good follow-ups. Everyone has a hundred plus Google reviews. Everyone we're all the same, Mike. And I say, no, I don't want to be, you know, in the line like the bachelor, right? I don't want to be one of 15 that you're choosing from. I want to be the single person that you give that rose to, or at least I want to make sure I stand above the rest that I'm the obvious first choice. And all of this, as much as you use design, you know, as photos, images, fonts, colors to allure someone, if you do not understand sales, psychology, by behavior, and how someone works, you are literally guessing. And unless you're not talking to a human being, all these things are human basics, works on a date, works in an interview, and your website isn't negotiation and a method to win that phone call lead. And what happens again after that? That's between you and them. But we're talking about website conversion. they can see too. The actual what I call sales conversion which really obviously comes down to your product, your price, what's your pitch, what is the value, how do you get that urgency and assuming your proposal is good and your price is right, thinking you've won the prize. So to me it's actually not as hard. No, you should be as hard as well. It sounds. It sounds really, the way you laid it out sounds really simple, but I want to unpack it like for people. I'm going to go through and do like an example if you can if you will. So who are you? It's probably I'm guessing your headline. Who are you? We saw it's the first thing you're seeing right there and a lot of times if you guys caught, he said something really important. Most times people, I think it was on point too, is like, what do you do? Everyone reverts and I do a lot of like, no one can ever answer his question because the first question I asked somebody when I'm branding them or anything, I'm like, what do you do differently? And if they always revert to the answer like, I follow up with my clients, I'm going to make sure that I take good care of them. I'm not going to let them get in trouble. I'm like, so that means you're just going to do your job. Like people assume that you're going to do your job, right? Like there's nobody in the world of business right now that is like, I'm going to screw over my clients. So you don't have to tell me that you're not going to screw over your clients. Like that's not a USB to me, unique selling proposition is what I mean. But I like how you frame that because you're like, about the problem you solved. The second thing when people go, what do you do? People always revert to talking about themselves versus how you, how your service helps them solve like, uh, their problem, right? And all the time, I've been in the business for 25 years. And it's always the people start with an eye. I hate it. And it's got to be all about you, right? It's all about service. And if you could serve others, you'll sell. But let's spend some time on that because I think that's such a good, good, good point. Walk me through what you do and why choose you. And we're on a website are there. I know the wide choose you is testimonials. We've got some video testimonials, but there's probably also some sort of like framing in there. And how would you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's what I call proof stacking. So we're past the age of just, you know, I've got, you know, 20 plus years doing this and that. Like you've got to stack proof on top of proof on top of proof on super proof. That's what we call a proof density. Like how much can you get in there without making it sound like I'm awesome. Because imagine going that date, right? Think about that date, right? I'm in there. I'm telling you that. And I'm just saying, I'm awesome. I'm awesome. I'm awesome. I'm awesome. I'm awesome. Exactly. Great. Well, you're pretty arrogant. Like just like, just like, what about me, right? But if you know how to frame it in a way where you still talk about your authority, but it's in light of what you're looking for, then that really helps and stuff. And there's many ways to show proof, right? Proof could be used in, you know, logos, you know, awards, associations, testimonials, case studies. I mean, there's so many ways to show it. But you just have to frame it in a way that it helps the customer not just talks about you. So that's why we say, who are you? What do you do? Why do you have to get in touch with you? I'm not here to throw through a whole website just to find all that information. Our rule is if I can even do it, the first mug you get to the website, bang, those four things, you pretty much, you know, got their attention, then you pull them through the site where you continue to stack on this kind of additional proof, additional information. And that's why we do a lot of audits. Just sometimes people don't even realize they go, no, I've already said it. Just because you said it once in passing doesn't like mean that the other person's received it. And I think that's the big common thing we pretend. It's like, oh no, it says it on the website, but it's on this page under this, like, look, it's there. And I'm like, buddy, no one's looking there. It's a kind of thing about like a house, right? Just because you said it's in the second room in the cupboard at the bottom, doesn't mean I've got to find out. I'm just walking straight down your hallway. And I just want to be hit with the best bits right there. And then if we can summarize it, and I think that's why we designed conversion counter software because it actually just features those best bits, shoves it on your site and makes a problem in all the time, you know, that's why it was so urgent. Because all the information scattered everywhere, let's be honest, you could, if I forced you right now, gun to your head and so those four questions in less than a text message, if you can't do that, you're just waffling. And so that's why we're trying to encourage people to realize there are two types of users who look at websites or I guess if you just look at users in general, customers in general, there are what we call swimmers and skimmers. Swimmers will go through every single word, every single data and we have skimmers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good enough bang, right? And we make decisions like that. We skim a headline. We skim ads. We skim articles. So what you expect now you know, to change and something about read and care about everything on your website. No, I'm going to skim it. So how good is your elevator pitch? If I just had to give you that for who are you, what do you do? Watch your choosing how to get in touch with you, right? So that's why spend time thinking about your message. So for us, Chromatics, we make websites that make your phone ring. We use human psychology, basic human psychology to do it. We've been doing it for, you know, 17 plus years with 180 plus design awards and I personally analyze 60,000 websites. If you like that, give me a bell. That is it. That's pretty much all you need to know about me, right? But how many people can say so much? Give so much credibility because really you're selling not in my case, I'm not selling websites. I'm actually selling trust and authority because that's all you care when you come to website. You just honestly, if I trust Mike, and is Mike authoritative in what he does. And so if we switch our heads into that kind of trust or authority space, that to me is when you get a better outcome as opposed to my websites in the cyclopedia with all the information, find out which page you want and work it out yourself. People are lazy. They just want to skim it. Get to the best bits. Yeah. Your site's so simple like I'm on it. Like so simple. I appreciate it. Thank you. Well, remember, it's not like complicated. I'm looking at it right on your, you got attention at the top. Yep. You go down to information. Yeah. So can I just a couple of disclaimers just to jump in? Yeah. Everyone's talking about SEO, Google, you know, with chat GPT. Yeah. And there's large-ling models needing a lot of content. Absolutely, it does need content. But it's doing in a tasteful way that appeals to users, but also to Google and there's large learning models and stuff. And it's also knowing how to put the right thing in the right area. So let's go through an example. Sure. The first date, I'm here to give you the best bits of who I am just to get your attention. The second date, I might unpack it a little bit more. And now that I'm married to the stuff with her, she gets the full story of every single little bit of detail, you know, and how many, you know, all the way to the end. Think of it almost like a movie teaser, a movie trailer, and the whole movie in itself. So the teaser is usually like 10 seconds, 15 seconds. It's a bit vague. I don't know. I've watched a teaser and I'm like, whoa, whoa, boom. Oh, looks interesting. The movie trailer, now it's like a one minute, tells you not just the best bits, but kind of gives you a little bit of the storyline, but maybe not enough to go, I've just watched the whole movie. I was just watching the Spider-Man one coming out and I was like, oh, it looks interesting. Still have no idea what the storyline is, but hey, looks good. Now you're willing to part with a bit of money to watch the whole movie. That's the two hours of best bits. I think the attitude, sometimes people is, oh, let's take the whole movie and shove it on our website, because everyone wants to know everything. No, they don't. Yeah, yeah. They just want a bit of a teaser, a bit of trailer, because you are the movie. You're the everything. And if you want everything, you've got to pay for it, right? So teaser, trailer, movie, have that kind of mindset. And if you can get those best bits, I think you would know. So I like it. Let's get into. So asking people for the last piece, like, can I have your number? Based on all the traffic and the website you've seen and the analyzation and all that. What would you say? Let's just talk a lot of people on the shark and be like service-based business local locally on service-based type business, real estate, legal, animal hospitals, stuff like that, doctors, dentists. For a service-based business, it's really like a book call, like they're calling. It's not typically an opt-in or a lead magnet. But where is this kind of have your number at? Is it on your, like, where do you, how do you ask? I can see how you frame it and how you ask it. But it's on every page I'm sure of your site. I'm looking around your site right now. But So like, what do you, what do you put this up? Let's understand the psychology first, right? It's on as hard as you think it is. Because all I have to do is just ask, oh, OK. In a real life situation, we just ask, hey, can I have your number? It's as simple as that. Yeah. On the website, you just have the call-to-action button. Here's a phone number. There's a button that says call me and speak to a specialist. Or it has to-- it's not hard, right? Just put the call-to-action button on every single part of your page and stuff and make it prominent. Or use something like conversion calut sticks to the side of your website and literally is on every frame of your website, right? So that's the simple part. But let's understand the psychology of a call-to-action. You see, if you look at the mind and how it works is, hey, Mike, can you just give me something? And you're like, no, you've given me nothing. Everything in business, especially when it comes to service, because we actually specialize in service businesses, it's an exchange of value. So if I see no value, why would I reach out to you? So an exchange of value could be your articulation of what you do is so much better than everyone else. Shut up and take my money. I just want to talk to you, right? Because I see value, the perceived value of what I receive means, yes, I will give you my most personal details. Because we treat our own name and our own details with absolute respect. And so I want something from you. And therefore, I will give you something. So that's the first one is make sure you articulate your value so clearly. Because you were saying, I'm the same as the guy next to you. Why would I give you data? So that's the first one. But then, like I just said, it's a value exchange. So that's why we create offers. That's why we say, we'll do a free audit, or we'll run you a property report, or we'll actually show you, you know, we can actually give you in your area a report on how much of that property was, that one was, and we can actually appraise your one and stuff like that, right? That's why we say, hey, that's why we even create new things. So come to our webinar, come to our seminar, free, free dinner, you know, where we share about how to invest better and stuff like that. And the tickets worth X, Y, Z. That's why we do it because we're trying to create value if we don't have perceived value, and that value exchange demands an exchange of details. Because, oh, dinner, oh, I got a free, so we actually had one property company here. They ran a dinner for investors, because they, you know, they're doing a lot of property investors, trying to catch property investors. Exclusive limited time offer only 20 people, different dinners are paid for you and your misses. Obviously, when you call, of course, they qualify you. They were not just given away free lunches here, right? Or dinners in this case. But they got your attention. You felt like, oh, I'm going to number one, learn something at this webinar. Number two, I'm going to get a free dinner if I don't learn anything. Number three, it could be a good excuse to have a night out with the misses as well, you know. It's just a pay pitch, you know it, but you must have said something. We will tell you the top 10 suburbs to invest in, that the checklist to get why you should and shouldn't choose whichever property. And I think that's why they also do checklists, you know. Give us a bell, there's a free checklist. Can I have your details, you know, that sort of thing? Or talk to whatever specialist who will guide you on X. Remember, this is just a value exchange. So if you have no value, I'm not going to exchange anything. No, it's like the best that just came to mind is the best offer, like ever. Now, now that you're like framing it this way, it's like going to a time share hotel, like where you get like a free like five days. You're like, I know I'm going to get pitched, dude, but I could go sit at the pool for three or four days. Chill, I could take a pitch for like 90 minutes. And then the funny part is that like 50% of the people who go up there never say they're going to buy anything and they're blocking away all the time share. 100%. Well, I've seen one where they go, I'll give you a $50 free, you know, Amazon virtual or something. You're just going to sit through this two hour thing. And you're going to spend like 500 bucks, right? Yeah, that's exactly right. That's the extreme. I love how you frame that. I think people can simplify that. And it's not just like, and that was sort of like, the question I was asking, it's not just call me. You have to create a value. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There, guys, like I have one person say to me, that the easiest, the cheapest and easiest way is to offer a discount. Because everyone wants dollars off, right? So let's go professional services at the base. So say you're a plumber like Christian, whatever and stuff, you know, you can give a discount. Like first time customer, you get 25% off. You can bundle by it. So spend over $500, you get a free gift or an extra discount. Buy one, get one free. Refer and make and you both get 20 bucks off, right? So offers, discounts and specials always work when it comes to low value or repeat things just to get someone in the box to remember. You're looking at the lifetime value of the customer, not the first time. So of course, you want to give a little something something to get them through the dot. So that's a discount offer. Yeah, but a lot of people say to me, I'm a lawyer, I count on, I want to give a discount. You know, we're not here, we're not either cheapest. I'm like, yeah, absolutely. So therefore, then you have to play value. Give them something that's worth something. So you're not taking off, but you're adding on. So, you know what, first console, it's on us with extra $1, right? 'Cause I always feel like if I've talked to my lawyer, he's gonna charge me every six minutes. Where actually, you know what, the first session, free half an hour, let's see if we can get into this. Because it's really what I call just sales at the end of the day. You're just giving them an opportunity to have your time for you to share your what, trust and authority. Yeah, not your expertise. They just want to see that you're trustworthy and that you know what you're talking about. And then you're actually done for you. That's actually what they're testing you on. That's a test drive. So, let's give more value, let's think of ideas that give value and stuff of that. Now, I just ask, you know, if a lawyer is listening at the moment, what value are you really giving? I mean, I might not be discounting, but what value are you giving? That is not just your job, like you said, Mike, right? So, if you're on time, on budget, on scope, you know, you're gonna do the right thing. That's your job. Yeah. What are you gonna do above and beyond that adds value and think of it this way, compared to, compared to, compared to B, what are you gonna do differently? Oh, but thingy doesn't do it as well. No, no, no, in the customers' mind, you're all the same. Yep. You're exactly the same. If not, you're actually all really bad. Gonna prove to me why you excel, why you are the obvious first choice that you should get a seat at the table. That's to me is where we need to get it too. To the point, and you know you've done the right thing when the person's going, shut up and take my money, or they ask the question, hey, what's the next step? Like, hey, no, hey, no, what do we have to do from here? Then you know you've done the right thing. So, again, it's all sales psychology that we're still talking about video website. There are just more the mediums that hold the trust and authority. Yeah, that's it. Love it, man, very well put. I don't have any other questions for you, what other closing thoughts you have? Any other final tips? Yeah, no, absolutely. I think the final tips is this, it's really simple. It's the little things that make a big difference, like little things. So, I could have gone to that first date with a just a nicer haircut as opposed to my normal haircut. I guess maybe like, makeup with no makeup, right? It makes a difference. If I rock up five minutes earlier as opposed to just on time, it makes a difference. If I chose a slightly nicer restaurant and create a nicer ambience, it would make a difference. Or if I ordered a nicer meal as opposed to try to cheapen out and something, it would have made a difference. Little things make a big difference. So, I encourage, if you've got a shoot of video, you can do one, two, or cheapen out with a short one, do it properly. Because the video stays with you and lasts for a long time. 'Cause you don't shoot a video and once you do, you throw it out. No, that video's gonna stay with you for years. It's what we call leverage, right? We get to do once, use many times. So, if you've got a shoot of video, do it properly, especially for websites. - Yeah. - If you're gonna get a couple of testimonials, you don't wanna look like a one-track pony, get a couple, because it really helps to show that credibility. I'm not just good with X, Y, Z, I can, it's kinda, I'm kinda like Captain America. You know, like, you know, I could do this all day. You know, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. It looks like this guy's just endless. But on your website, when people do land on it, spend the time to go through it carefully. Don't just go, oh yeah, I've got a section of it. Did you even read it yourself? - Yeah. - Is it too long? Does it even make sense? Are you just trying to fill the section? Did you actually try clicking or filling in your own form? How many people have I filled in their form and the form doesn't work and they wonder why they're not getting inquiries? - Yeah. - Or my favorite one. They said, we're not converting or we're not getting phone calls and unfortunately for them, their phone number though it looked correct. whoever was the developer and programmed it had actually switched to numbers around. So when someone's clicking on their phone, it was going to the wrong number. I'll do it. They won't get in the call, right? Attention to detail on the little things makes a big difference. And so if you haven't had yet website analyzed, analyze it yourself. I'm not even asking you to pay someone to do it, but just go through it as if you're the customer, not the business owner. And the question, my last question is, would you call yourself? Because if you wouldn't even call yourself, and you're like, I'm not, I just whipped it up and just waxed something up. That's like me just saying, I just slapped on the orders, walked on to the date and stuff. Are you serious? If you really want to date, you'd actually put attention in. Get the haircut, choose the nice outfit. You can't just slap it on. I've already, I've already got clothes on. It doesn't work that way, right? And how much do you understand that sales? Because sales is really basic. Who are you? What do you do? Why should I choose you? How to get in touch with you? It's all about knowing, like, and trusting. Make sure you get that trust on authority. That's it. Very good, dude. Love it. It's all really good stuff. Why don't you tell her where they can find you if they want to learn more? Yeah. If you actually want to connect with me, name's Irwin Howe. H-A-U is how you spell Howe. Hit me up on LinkedIn. Absolutely. Tell me, you found me on this podcast with Mike. And if you want to check out what we do, chrometics.com.au. So C-H-R-O-M-A-T-I-X.com.au. We are in Australia, hence the.com.au. Or you all, if you want to help your own website with who are you? What do you do? Why choose you? All on one single page, and you want that available and prominent on every single frame of your whole website. That's why we've been to conversion cow, which is our other company. So conversion cow, COW, and someone asked me why cow? Because we want to beef up your website, milk your whey pump for more leads. And there's no question I haven't heard. H-E-R-D. So definitely hit me up if you want to have a bit of a chat and stuff and check it out. That's conversion cow branding. That's awesome. Appreciate it, dude. Appreciate Irwin's awesome stuff. And we appreciate you guys listening to another episode of the your marketing, dude podcast. He mentioned some of these website videos. Folks, if you need a website video, call me. We can do it anywhere in the world. We'll script that and distribute all of your video content, especially the core ones you put on the main pages of your website, because that's the first time people meet you. And they want to connect with the human being, not an AI robot, like everything else is turning into in today's day, age. If you can remain authentic with your content, you will attract eventually someone's going to find you interesting. So don't overthink this. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll see you guys next week. Bye-bye. -Sticking out. Thanks for hanging out with your marketing, dude podcast. If you want more tools, tips, or strategies, and learn more, visit our website over at yourmarketing, dude.com. Until next time, keep it real, keep it fun, and always be marketing.