How to Get Your Brand Cited by AI with Bernard Huang

Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the busstream podcast. I'm your host Ben Sniro and today I am thrilled to be joined by Bernard Wong. He is the founder of ClearScope which is an SEO platform you all should check out. We'll talk about that a bit in the podcast but today I really want to focus on what Bernard has really put together in terms of his playbook for getting into a EO, GEO, and getting your brand mentioned in AI answers. Which is obviously on everyone's mind and you know in the digital PR space there's a big component of it. I know the own side of it is a piece of it. We're going to talk about that. But I think Bernard does a really good job of kind of explaining the through lines for all the stuff we do and how we get you know from the training data into kind of the core piece of information, these large language models are using these training sets. So that's what we're going to be talking about today but before we do I just want to remind everyone to hit that subscribe button, like share this stuff with your colleagues. And number two is that List IQ is live. Our media lists building tool that helps PR pros like our listeners build media lists directly from Google News. It's super cool. It's you know we're getting some great feedback. Really speeds up the process for those hyper target media lists. So thrilled about that. But I am most excited here Bernard. Thanks so much for joining us. How are you doing man? Yeah, thanks so much for having me all in all. You know can't complain. I'm happy healthy like those around me are and yeah that brings a smile to my face. So yeah, and hey you got engaged. I don't know if it's podcast worthy but you got engaged in grads over the holidays. Yeah, you shout out there. Yeah, awesome. Okay. So let's jump into this because there's a lot to cover. And like I said, you do do a great job. I think of explaining this. You walked me through this last time we talk and I came away with a lot of questions but I was very excited. So let's start with the kind of the straight kind of simple question. What does it take to get into citations? That's what everybody wants to know. What does it take? Yeah. And that means that your brand has been around for at least a little bit. It's contributed to the topic that you want to be associated with and it has authority. You know, it has links from reputable sources and it has covered the topic that you want to be cited for comprehensively and well. That's it in a nutshell. So yeah, I mean, that's a big piece of it. I want to get into the kind of content creation piece and kind of the relevance thing. But I think one thing I want to make sure I'm understanding and our listeners are understanding is so difference between getting cited as like a link, right? And being cited as part of the training data. Can you kind of explain a little bit of the difference there? Like, you know, when AI does go to kind of cross check this, you know, retrieve information, that doesn't necessarily mean you're in the training data, right? And vice versa. So can you explain a little bit of that difference? Sure. Yeah. I think it's great that you bring it up in a good foray for this audience here that's tuning in into how AI generates a response. So if you think about you as a user and your prompting Gemini chat GPT, Claude, so on and so forth, you have to ask yourself, what are the mechanisms that an AI has to generate the answer or the response that you're going to get back as the end user? And when you break it down, what you start to understand is that there's three distinct layers in how an AI formulates a response. At the foundational level, you have the training data that an AI has been trained on. And you know, this is typically billions of different web documents, common crawl data, Wikipedia, and, you know, whatever secret sauce elements that these different models are using. And that's the underlying corpus of information that a AI model builds on top of. So that's step one. Let's say I'm asking chat GPT, what are the best SEO tools? Then chat GPT has a good understanding of SEO tool. All of that's been discussed. And it starts and it looks at its own knowledge for that particular topic. Step two is very interesting, but this is the reason why SEO plays such a critical role in how AI's generate responses. And this is the grounding layer, I think is what it's typically referred to. I call it the validation layer because what the agent is doing is that it is doing research on behalf of the prompter, right? If again, we go back to the best SEO tools. What the agent or the AI model wants to do is to say, okay, well, I have an understanding of what the best SEO tools are, but I need to validate that my understanding is still up to date, fresh and relevant with what is currently on the market. This is why agents will search, right? They'll perform AI web searches for best SEO tools, very best keyword research tools, so on and so forth, because they want to augment and make sure that the response that they're about to give back is up to date on pricing features, you know, different new tools that may have entered the market. So that's step two. Step three is simply the personalization and context layer. So as you may be aware, the AI models want to make sure that the answers are getting back to you are personalized and contextual to what you need. And so if I've had past conversations where I've told the model, you know, I work at a software company and I'm based in Austin, then the AI model will typically remember that, again, depending on your settings. And they'll use that to then infer that they might say, oh, well, the best SEO tools for B2B software segment is X, Y or Z. And that's where you get, you know, the last layer of like augmentation before the response gets handed back to you. So in essence, when we're thinking about this and I believe the original question is like, okay, well, how do you say influence the training data and or when an AI citation, what we have to start to think about is, well, a layer number one, which is the training data set and layer number two, which is the research that the model does. Okay, you know, how do we then influence training data or the research or the grounding that the agent has to do? What we found is that the fastest way to influencing the model is not at the training data layer because training data is very expensive to like create such a big data set and train a new model on it takes a long time. So it's slow. But to intersect the model when it's doing research on behalf of the user to make sure that the information it's about to give out is up to date and relevant. So what we're seeing is that you just create relevant high quality content that targets the AI reasoning chain. And when I say reasoning chain, it's just to say that you can peel back the layer on how all of these different like AI models work by looking at how they're thinking about the prompt that you've given it. And oftentimes it will show you like, okay, well, to find the best SEO tools, I've begun my search by searching best SEO tools. I found that they're over, you know, like four different categories. There's on page off page technical, so on and so forth. And it's like, I'm investigating each one by performing additional searches for best technical tools, best keyword research tools. And then you take that information and you say, okay, well, if I want to be present for that AI model, then I need to create content that targets the way that the AI is researching the top. Right. So is this something that people can do without creating content on their site? Like can you solely focus on off page, you know, link building citation, sorry, citation, let's not use that word, you know, off page get getting coverage from from high end news sources. You know, that is, I think one of the big pieces, I obviously, an art by industry in the digital PR space, but does that exist in a vacuum or if you need to also kind of build this topical relevance by creating content and topical authority by creating your own content? Yeah, I think the short answer is that there's no one size fits all in in this particular world. I say that in the sense that let's say you're a local plumber in a a smallish city like Kyle Texas or something like that. In that particular world, if there was somebody who was geolocated in Kyle Texas and they were searching best plumbers for Kyle Tech or they didn't even need the Kyle Texas part 'cause that's inferred, then it's possible that simply having a Google My Business and a Yelp page is good enough because there's not that much competition, right? There's not that many people who are plumbers that serve the area of Kyle Texas. So I think in those cases, like strong third party signals, whether they be Google My Business, Yelp, Reddit mentions, so on and so forth, I think we'll go a long way in a not so competitive ecosystem and environment. That said, as you're trying to vie for influencing the model at more competitive topics and higher up the funnel in terms of informational query, I think that the models are going to want more and more demonstrated topic expertise, right? It's like if that plumber in Kyle Texas wants to be cited for what is a plumber, then you can imagine they're going to have to do a lot more work to build up the authority on the topic, to create tons of content, to then get citation, citation, to get backlinks and all these things from other sources to basically prove that they are authoritative. So I would say it really depends on your industry and it also really depends on what stage of the funnel that you want to go after, but we've seen things as simple as creating one piece of content that's like, I'm a plumber in Kyle Texas and that solely being enough for that plumber to start to show up in commercial prompts for that area. - Yeah, I mean, I've been digging into a lot of data to kind of understand, I feel like it depends on the type of prompt, right? Like if it is a more informational type of prompt, like it's polling different kinds of information, whereas like, if it's a brand awareness query, it's like who are the best plumbers or like, is such and such plumber, a great plumber, like you're seeing a lot more, like websites mentioned, like homepage mentioned or like a Baudest pages mentioned, cited rather than it polling, you know, just a random informational blog post. So I wonder like the conversation we have a lot internally here is like, okay, is informational content even worth doing if users are going to get most of it from chat GPT, Gemini without even clicking through, you know, they're gonna get their answer and not click through it. Whereas the bottom funnel stuff maybe they will because, you know, they're gonna get informed and then they're gonna jump in. So it's this kind of like budding heads where it's, you know, you need to make informational content to inform the model and show that you're authoritative, but like who's gonna be clicking on this isn't gonna be driving any content, or sorry, driving any traffic to your website. I mean, does that vibe with what you're seeing? - Absolutely. And I think the jury is still out in terms of the influence of informational top of funnel content and your sites. And what I mean by that more concretely is, let's say nerd wallet, right, who's an authoritative authority on personal finance, credit card, so on and so forth, they in the past would have had tons of informational content on what is a credit score, how to improve your credit score, what is a travel credit card, how's that different than an airline credit card, so on and so forth. Whereas, you know, nowadays people, when they Google, you know, airline credit card versus travel credit card, they get a nice little AI overview that says, well, these are the key differences and this is what you have to pay attention to. And all of a sudden, nerd wallet as the publisher of that content is no longer receiving as much if any traffic to those pages, right, because they end up being a little card that says, yes, you know, that particular piece of content was used as a source and, you know, if you wanna check out the sources, here they are. So that begs the question is that content still valuable, right? In the sense that it's not really getting you much traffic, but it is building authority with the model that you're brand and more specifically your domain does know what it's talking about for that particular topic. So all that to say, the jury is still out in terms of how much that is worth. I have to believe that topic authority, which is your domain's ability to be visible during the research process that agents take, whether it's the training data itself or the, you know, grounding with web search that happens has to be worth something. I just don't know, you know, is that 60% is that 40% is that 10% I don't know. And I think a lot of people are trying to figure that out, but I haven't seen conclusive evidence pointing to a strong or weak like rating at this particular point. - Yeah, I mean, there seems to be a lot of correlated data at least between ranking, you know, in the blue links and showing up at least in AI overviews as a citation. So that to me kind of leans at least to somewhat in that direction of it being worthwhile to rank, which means you do have to create content. It's interesting because we are getting to that place where it's, we're just creating content just to inform this thing, you know, just content for content sake rather than like content that your people are going to actually read and interact with. It kind of gets me to the next point. We talked a little bit about this where, you know, the type of content. And there's a lot of talk online about things like chunking and, you know, how much content you need to create. Should you be creating these big long guides? I know some research has come out recently that like Google has a specific, a lot of, you know, character count that they crawl from every page, you know, when they do this retrieval. So if you could talk a little bit about that, I'd be curious to see your take on the depth of content, I guess, when you're creating this. Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's the wild world with when it comes to the AI like stuff. And yes, I know exactly the research piece that you're talking about where, you know, there is a lot of two thousand characters that I believe, Gemini, like allocates to its grounding budget to then say that, you know, it can only be influenced up to, you know, this amount of like, you know, characters. And then it distributes that by, you know, how like the ranking and if you're rank number one, maybe you absorb 50% of that like budget to like augment the overall response. I mean, I think, you know, not to get into the semantics and the micro of it all. I think, you know, two thousand today could be four thousand tomorrow, which could be 500, you know, one year from now. So I think that, you know, when I look at some of the data studies that are coming out, I say, okay, well, you know, at a high level just taking a couple steps back, it's clear that AI, you know, wants to produce a highly accurate, highly relevant and somewhat personalized response when it's prompted with anything that you ask it. And so I think you're gonna see varying degrees of budget just like from a, okay, how much do I need to rely on your content versus how much should I rely on my own training data to like, you know, give a response? I think that should be probably a fluid, like sort of analysis where like, you know, it's probably looking to see, okay, you know, from a, these are, you know, if I'm saying what is the first president of the United States, which is in essence a fact. And the AI, when it reads all of the answers on the internet has come up with a 99.999% likelihood of confidence that it's George Washington, then it's going to allocate no budget to that particular prompt because it says everything is the same, and therefore this answer is always true. There it is, right? Obviously if you were to be able to bluff the model until late, well, George Washington is close to Abraham Lincoln and then convince it to say Abraham Lincoln instead. I think that would be obviously a huge problem with AI. So anyways, I think there's a lot of different theories out there. And I'll just say that the core theories that exist are actually somewhat disparate. On one hand, you have, I think, advocates who talk about it. about cosine similarity and knowledge graph, like entity relevance and cohesiveness. And what that refers to is the idea that to cover a topic comprehensively, there are key entities and subtopics that ought to surround that particular topic. So you know, trying to go with, I guess best SEO tools, as an example, a great piece of content that talks about it probably has to include HREFs, Semrush, Maws, so on and so forth, because those are the best SEO tools. And the lack of inclusion of one of those particular entities would demonstrate a lack of comprehensiveness for that particular topic. So one line of thinking says, okay, to vie for inclusion, I not only need to talk about, you know, all of those different things that are known and closely associated with the topic, but you know, I need to add on to that particular list and be, you know, also semantically coherent and relevant. So then you would start to say, okay, well, if we're talking about best SEO tools, then we would add screaming frog or clear scope or sight bulb or write all of these other like patterns or iterations that are again close enough related to the main topic, but just trying to basically pack it all in as closely as possible. That would refer to kind of aspects of what we're seeing with the chunking the cosine simulator similarity, the topical relevance, the LSI, like type, like stuff. So that's one school of thought. The other school of thought is talks about information gain and information gain at a high level just refers to the fact that, you know, topics evolve over time. And just because best SEO tools doesn't currently include a lot of the AI visibility stuff that's on the market, whether it be peak, profound scrunch, whatever, it doesn't mean that those aren't great SEO tools because, you know, AEO or GEO is converging with SEO. And so a piece of content talking about best SEO tools might include a bunch of different disparate information sources to say, you know, this is a future state of, you know, where this topic might be heading. And so there's another school of thought that says it's not about creating more and more tight and comprehensive, you know, entities packed together, but it's about expanding that and showing that you're adding to the topic in unique and interesting ways that the topic then gains information on. And so anyways, I think those are the two main current, like themes is that you have a lot of people saying, okay, you know, how do we pack in more entities? How do we make the chunks and the passages tight, semantically relevant? And that makes the algorithm happy. And then you have this other school of thought that's like, how can we add to this topic in a meaningful way that like people aren't really even thinking about at the moment and have that be how we come out as unique and interesting and, you know, something that is AI citation worthy. Yeah, I mean, it's a fantastic kind of thought experiment going through a lot of this stuff. I mean, the thing, so I want to dig into a couple more specific digital PR things and I want to kind of circle back to kind of CalClearScope fits into this because I think it does fit in nicely to both of those things that we talked about. So off page SEO, specifically getting your brand mentioned in high DA top tier, whatever you want to call it relevant news publications alongside of your core keywords. So if I got to write up for Buzzstream, I would want it to say, you know, from Forbes, Buzzstream, comma, email outreach platform or whatever, you know, email outreach platform, Buzzstream and Buzzstream is the link and then it talks about some relevant news piece that I have pitched. That to me is the clearest kind of way to signal, okay, this is that relevant. This is the kind of entity strengthening that we're doing. We're talking about, you know, having your keyword associated with your brand. Tell me a little bit about that. I mean, is that kind of how you think about the off page that the digital PR even link building, you know, the traditional link building and that's how that fits? Yeah. I mean, in a nutshell, the practices of off page answer engine optimization are very similar to SEO with a couple of caveats. That number one is that there is a distinction between like links and co-mentions. So what I mean by links in a traditional like world, you know, I log into my Buzzstream, I see that I want to pitch this journalist at, you know, Forbes and I write to them and they say, okay, it's going to cost you whatever $3,000 for an inclusion and, you know, I'm like, oh, but do I got to do follow link and then they're like, oh, if you want to do follow link, that's $5,000. And then, you know, it's this sort of dance. And then they put in sponsored because you know, that's what they're legally obligated to do even though I want to fight for it not to be sponsored. In any case, you get this link and the link passes equity because the crawler, right, we're talking about Google here, the crawler looks at Forbes and says, wow, there's a link to the Buzzstream. Like, okay, well, let me follow that. They follow that to the page or homepage that it links to and says, okay, well, Forbes is basically voting that Buzzstream, whether it's the article or the homepage is good. And that's how a CEO worked. But large language models are different. Large language models are, again, corpices of documents that are looking at associations between topics and entities. And it's constantly looking at that. So in the large language model world, or, you know, we'll put on, we'll say Gemini, for Gemini, right, it looks at a document that's written on Forbes and it says, okay, that's interesting. And then it sees Buzzstream mentioned alongside entities or topics like journalist outreach or PR or building authority. And then it basically builds an internal idea that Buzzstream, as an entity, is related to all of those particular topics. It did not at all need to follow the link that the Forbes article had to Buzzstream to make that inference that Buzzstream is indeed basically, you know, helps with those particular kinds of like topics and build that relationship. So that's one of the key differences that we're seeing play out in terms of digital PR is that the link is becoming less important. And this is why you're seeing a lot of more shady practitioners of AEO and GEO go around being like, oh, let me just spam Reddit, right? When they're spamming Reddit, all that they're doing is that like we'll take clear scope as an example, right? We're just basically trying to inject as many comments as possible that says like clear scope, best SEO tool, best AEO tool, you know, like ideally that would be what the footprint would be. But then mods and everybody would just ban all those accounts. So it has like some sound somewhat like, you know, human written and whatnot. So they spin it in that way. But that's why you see, you know, comments spam being such a thing that people recommend and get results with is because it's more around creating the linkages in topics and entities rather than creating the linkages through backlinks. Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking through like it. So I just saw a couple of reactive campaigns that I highlighted on LinkedIn because, you know, I'm a baseball fan. There was this baseball player who was offered free stakes for life if he resigned in Toronto, right? This guy, Boba Shett. He signs with the Toronto bullshakes free stakes for life. And this blew up for the stake house, right? Blow up on on social and then went on to get them a lot of links from local Toronto news sites. So when you're talking about the value of something like that for AI, walk me through kind of that because to me, like, unless it, like I don't think they necessarily, it was like, maybe sorry, let me duck up. A lot of times I would see Toronto stake house, you know, has fun offer, whatever Toronto stake house called animal stake house. And like, so you'd see those mentioned. So is it just that idea that it's like you're getting mentioned as a Toronto stake house in Toronto by Toronto web pages and like that's kind of the overall output outcome that you want in that scenario? Like how does that benefit AI in your, your, yeah. So I think there is like a first order benefit and then like a second order benefit. So I think the first order benefit and this is true for I think a lot. of PR that's not just AI benefit, is that you just get the Halo effect. And the Halo effect means you have social media talking about it, you have local news outlets talking about it. And through that, there's just this general buzz that everybody picks up on that is generally a good thing, right? That's why there's that statement, all PR is like good PR. So that's kind of the first order effect. I think the second order effect is that you start to create documents within authorities on the web that create new linkages between your brand and the topic set you care about for better or for worse, right? Like this is why, you know, negative PR is a thing. And this is also why a lot of people who get into, you know, splashes of bad, like moments will lean on positive PR to basically shove that stuff down, right? I'm sure you've probably heard of it, but like, you know, when Neil Patel got sued by like FTX because they did a deal with them and, you know, Neil Patel walked away with a bunch of money, Neil like ended up donating, you know, like some money to some charity. And then, you know, if you googled Neil Patel, like you would see his donations to the charity, rather than the fact that he was being sued by like the FTX claims lawyers or whatnot. And so in any case, what you're doing as a second order effect is that you're just creating documents that are generally from higher authority authoritative sites. And then those are being used either during the training data step or at least during the grounding step. And then that helps influence the model to push, you know, your brand or yourself closer or away from, you know, the entities that you would want to be surrounded by. Because it is a kind of a probability, probability play, right? That's it. It's, you know, how likely, like if it's someone searching for Neil Patel, how likely is the next thing going, like, you know, Neil Patel, then fill in the blank, that blank as the LLM kind of tries to answer this, it's all probably ballistic, right? So if all the articles are talking about FTX, then the next words are going to be about FTX. But if you've pushed up all of that news about the charity, then maybe the likelihood that the next word will be about the charity. I mean, is that kind of how that's right? That's right. Yeah. That's essentially how it worked in SEO. Yeah. Which is why there's again lots of parallels between influencing rankings and influencing algorithm, like AI models. All right. So one more question, and I want to talk about ClearScope. How if we're talking specifically about digital PR, how would you track success when you're talking about digital PR and AI? Yeah. There's a brilliant question. So I think that the way to track success is to get a prompt tracker, or I mean, you don't need a prompt tracker, but just ask Gemini and Chad GPT, what is the best commercial query that makes sense for your brand and your industry? Just as an example, with ClearScope, it'd be best SEO tool. It'd be best a SEO tool. Those would be different commercial questions or prompts that we care about owning and being recommended when a user asks that it's very easy, or you could go to AI mode or Gemini or Chad GPT and just be like, what are the best X tools or services or whatever it is that you care about? And then see what it responds with. And we would say, well, you want to build a PR campaign, which then basically influences the way that the models think about your brand so that you get either recommended or you somehow get up the list or the sentiment of your brand changes, right? Because sometimes you're like, what are the best SEO tools? And then you're like, way down on the list. It's like, okay, you're on it, but you're not high up on the list. And then the second thing is that you could be on it, but then it could be like a next thing, right? It's like, oh, ClearScope, like some say it's too expensive, some say it doesn't work, right? So there's a lot of different ways to think about visibility. But I mean, the tried-in-true is find the commercial prompt that you care about and then do a digital PR campaign. Don't worry too much about links. I don't think links are as important. I would say that I think what's important is rankings. So you're going to be much better off if you can have a digital PR campaign that targets a website that is on the front page of Google already, right? So it's much better to Google, you know, best SEO tools see that there's a, you know, backlinko article or something like that. And then try really hard to get backlinko to add ClearScope, then, you know, like it is to necessarily just kind of cold pitch a bunch of stuff, you know, get some journalists to write about, you know, what you've done. I'm not saying that that doesn't work. I'm just saying, you know, you're going to get a lot more bang for your buck because that high ranking website is not only going to be crawled faster. It's going to be seen as more authoritative by the AI models. And therefore the waiting that, you know, the models give to that particular document is going to be way higher than something that's a bit more unproven. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. All right. So now I want to give you a chance to you kind of walk me through this when we get back to kind of the content side of things. I thought you did a great job of kind of showing you where a tool like ClearScope kind of fits into this idea of like building this topical authority because we do know, I think it is for the most part, for most brands that are probably listening, you do need to have a content aspect. And less here, just like a local plumber, like you said, it's very similar to SEO, right? So yeah, talking a little bit about just kind of how ClearScope fits into that kind of topical authority workflow. Sure. Yeah. So again, a couple of caveats, AI recognize that AI visibility is a fast moving and fast changing landscape. You know, nothing is completely guaranteed. You know, GPT going from 5.2 to like six could just change the entire rules of the game. And you know, nothing is, you know, super certain. Also, you know, Google's AI mode, I think it's a matter of when, not if, right? And that releases, you know, asking to have different implications on to, you know, how all of this stuff like works. But, all right. So ClearScope, what we do is that we try a lot of different experiments and then we validate what we're seeing happen. And then we do our best to help our customers with the same. And we wrap it all around our software product where we start to have differences in how at least we're thinking about things is number one, by giving people prompt tracking, which on the surface is fairly commoditized. Right. You could go to any one of these prompt tracking that keep popping up like every week that charge, you know, next to nothing. And all they're doing is hitting different APIs and saying, you know, was your brand mentioned and was your domain cited, right? That's like very stock, very commoditized stuff. But we go one level deeper and we help you understand how the agents are researching that particular topic. So if we go back to the best SEO tools example, we would have looked at the reasoning chain for GPT and Gemini. And we would say, hey, well, when Gemini looked deeper into this particular topic, it searched best SEO tools for agencies. It searched best, you know, technical SEO tools. And that's very interesting stuff because that's content that you should be producing to increase your domain surface area of proving to the model that you should belong closely with the topic set you care about. So that's pretty unique to what we're doing and we're constantly refining, you know, how that process works. Step two in this process is to create high quality and relevant content. Now, you know, high quality and relevant content has almost always been subjective, you know, what makes a piece of content high quality and relevant and what our bread and butter is is helping you understand what that looks like from a comprehensiveness standpoint. So back to, you know, an earlier statement that I said, there are different schools of thought in terms of what high quality means in the clear scope world. We grade you on semantic comprehensiveness and then we suggest extra entities and concepts that you should probably include to make your piece of content even more holy in terms of covering all of the known entities. And we help you package all of that together. We've got an AI draft builder and soon a way to just automatically optimize your content for relevance. Lastly is tracking, right? Tracking in this new world also looks different. There has been no shortage of people just being really frustrated and angry about their loss and clicks. And it's because AI's responsibility is no longer to send the traffic to your site. It is simply to answer the question that the user asks. So traffic is no longer a good sense of demarcating, am I doing well in a CEO or a CEO? Instead, we have to think about it differently. And the ways that we think about it is more or less how everybody else thinks about it. How many times is your brand being mentioned for the topics and prompts that you care about and how many pages on your website is being cited for the prompts and topics that you care about. So we give you visibility into that as well. - Yeah, I mean, it's a fantastic tool. It's come a long ways since I used it at Siege and then with group with this edition of the AI tools, I think this makes it that much more powerful. So definitely check it out if you haven't. Bernard, I typically ask people, let's go over what's a good thing that I haven't asked you. I don't wanna take up more of your time. I know this was a lot of stuff. Maybe we can have a part two of this in six months or something when everything is changed and. (laughs) Oh, strategies are all different, but I really appreciate your time. Like I said, Bernard has a great webinar that he kind of walked through this. I'll make sure to link to this in the comments as well. But Bernard, thank you so much for your time. This was super helpful, super insightful. - Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Vince. - Yeah, reminder again, like, subscribe. You can find Bernard on LinkedIn. He's got his personal website, but also check out ClearScope. His personal website is just his name, Bernard J. Juan H.U.A.N.G. But yeah, definitely follow him. So he's putting out great stuff on LinkedIn. So good luck out there, everyone. And thanks for watching. (upbeat music)