Speaker 1What's the fastest way to take a brand to a million dollars a month? What strategies are working right now in e-commerce? Today, I'm going to sit down with a panel of experts that have all built multi-million dollar brands, and we're going to break down the strategies that are working right now. Not the strategies that worked 10 years ago, not the theoretical philosophical things, but what are the tactical things that are taking businesses from zero in some cases to a million dollars a month and beyond? We're going to break that down in today's e-commerce panel so that you see a pathway to take your brand from zero to seven or even eight figures. All right, let's talk about what's working in e-commerce right now. I want to start by just going into what's the best tip and the thing that you see working the best in your sector right now? Travis Ziegler, I'm going to start with you. What do you see working on your side of the fence in e-commerce right now?
Speaker 2The funny thing is I actually accidentally did this back in 2020, not knowing what I was doing, but what is working in my world right now is actually mergers and acquisitions. We are finding brands to pin onto our current brands that are making our EBITDA explode. Instead of going out there and launching a new product, we're actually buying the product instead. That's been a huge, huge unlock for us is to buy EBITDA and buy profit instead of just building something from scratch.
Speaker 1Why is that? Why is it so hot or timely right now versus three years ago? It's, it's, it's been forever.
Speaker 2It's just, I never knew that world. And so I've really dug into that because I have a goal to get to $10 million in EBITDA and sell my business for a hundred million dollars. And I realized that the route I was going previously by building from scratch, wasn't going to cut it. So I immersed myself in the mergers and acquisitions world after working for private equity. And I realized there's just an easier way to build up a business. And that was it. It was buying profit instead of building the profit.
Speaker 1Well, I would add to that point that right now is a really interesting time to be doing that in e-commerce because we're on the other side of this big boom that happened in e-commerce, but now valuations on a lot of e-commerce companies are really low. So it's an especially interesting time to be pursuing M&A. Ryan Rigney, let me come over to you on the TikTok shop side of things. What are you seeing work in e-commerce right now?
Speaker 3I think the most timely application, I think the most timely application of AI and e-commerce is using them together. Like in particular Claude code has an update that rolled out recently and what you can do and what I'm doing is actually using that combined with like Calo data and any of these sources of data where you can actually pull all of the top pieces of content for any competitor that's relevant to what you're selling and you can pull all of those in automatically. So Claude code will actually take control of your computer, go in there, even if you don't have an API, download them, all combine them, and then it can summarize what types of content are working in your, your space and give you like very clear playbooks on what exactly to do. And I think that's the easiest way to grow an e-commerce brand period right now is doing what works and figuring it out quickly.
Speaker 1And are you doing that by telling it who to crawl and who do you go to go out to like, what, what, what data are you giving it to figure out what type of content to have it script for you?
Speaker 3So AI is only as intelligent, intelligent as what it knows about what you're doing. So I can give it access to all of my slack channels. You know, some people don't like giving it access to this, but I'm like, whatever, just take it. You're going to get it eventually. Anyway, here's all of my slack convos, you know, here's my, here's my SharePoint with all the files, my brand deck. Here's what I sell. Here's my landing page. Here's my product. Go out there and plan. Tell me the top 10 competitors on tech talk right now that are relevant. It'll go find them and it'll tell you, okay, here's the 10. Does this look good to you? And then it can pull all of the content for all those. Competitors that's performing well and give you a summary at a genius level. So I think it's a pretty, pretty timely tip.
Speaker 1Are you, are you using that for going out and creating content? Are you doing that to you specifically for creating content,
Speaker 3content strategy, and you can also use the Intel that you gather from this to, to feed the creators that you have that make content. It's like, here's, here's the top scripts you can use, or you could take that one step, step further and feed it into an AI and have an AI generate the content using like lip sync or that these things are pretty popular right now as well.
Speaker 1That is absolutely beautiful. All right, Jeff Lieber, let me come over to you. What do you see being the hot trend right now that you see working in
Speaker 4e-commerce? Yeah, I think right now on Amazon and also works on your e-com website and your Shopify or whatever you have is just a testing, raising your prices. Like a lot of clients come to us and they haven't raised their prices in, you know, two years, they've set their prices, two, three years ago and you'd be surprised how quickly it can, you know, open up the world for you with having better margins. And so we had one brand that, you know, they were at like 20 grand a month and they were barely breaking even. And so we just raised their prices, you know, we notched it up to 25% and their conversion rates didn't go down. They gave us way more ad spend and budget to spend. It just, you know, we had so much more money to spend and scale the conversion rate. Didn't drop hardly at all. And, and then now we're over six figures a month, like six months later. Um, so we, you know, that's just a really, it takes two minutes to just go, go test one of your products, raise the price and see what happens. Um, yeah, it, it, it probably, uh, you know, it's an old one, but it works.
Speaker 1Why do you think that was so impactful for that specific brand? Was it because it gave them more margin to run advertising? Did it attract a different type of customer? Why did that change? I mean, that's only like it could only be a few, a few dollars in some cases. So why was that so impactful for that brand to go from 25 K a month to a seven figure run rate?
Speaker 4So before they came to us at the price that they had, they had said it, they're like, okay, we have just enough margin to make money. But like, I was like, okay, cool. But can we run, you know, we've got prime day coming up. Can we run promotions? Can we run discounts? And they're like, well, you know, maybe like 5% off. And I'm like, well, that's not, you know, Amazon customers don't want to see, you know, typically 10, 15% for those major holidays or more. And then we just, we couldn't scale the ads because there was no margin. So you know, by raising it, it just opened up all of these levers for us to grow. So we were able to do five different things and scale them which I think compounded for them in that example.
Speaker 1Yeah, that is beautiful. I think the temptation for most e-commerce entrepreneurs is if you want to increase prices or if you want to increase volume, you drop prices. I say that's a race to the bottom. If you want to increase sales, you should increase your prices. So I'm really, really glad you said that. I want to emphasize what Jeff just shared about raising prices. You're going to hear this be a theme throughout the rest of this conversation. And it's something that I very much believe in, which is you've got to have enough margin to be able to run a lot of advertising. I know that sounds basic, but in the e-commerce world, it's very common for people to drop their price in order to try to get more customers. And I think the opposite is the best way for them. If you want to increase your prices, increase your price because it allows you to have more bullets in the chamber and more strategies that you can use because you can afford to run effective advertising. If you want to see how we build high margin brands, you can see what we do over at capitalism.com/bootcamp. Now that we've got our ninja tips out of the way, let's do some proper 30 second intros. Travis, would you share a little bit about what you guys do and the types of businesses that you're acquiring?
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm Dr. Travis Ziegler. I'm a partner in a private equity fund called Freedom Brands. I also have a marketing agency called Profitable Pineapple Ads, hence the pineapple hat. And we do Amazon ads, PPC, DSP. And then we also do TikTok management as well. We are looking for supplement brands and for humans and for animals in the 500,000 to a million dollars in profit rate.
Speaker 1Beautiful. Thank you. And Ryan, you are my go-to expert on TikTok shop. Give a 30 second overview of what you guys do.
Speaker 3Right. So I'm a partner with Stay Viral. I also have a brand that I run that sort of inspired me creating this, I would say, agency to recruit content creators at scale and deploy them for brands to grow them on social, particularly TikTok shop. And can you brag on the brand a little bit? Cause it's a kind of a cool, big brand. My brand is, it's okay. It's not that big, not Maggi superfoods. You know, we, we're not as big as a lot of other people. But I've been running that for like 10 years.
Speaker 1He is being humble. It's a great brand. Jeff Lieber, give a quick 30 second overview. You're my most recommended Amazon expert. Give a quick overview of what you guys do at turnkey.
Speaker 4Thanks. Yeah. We're turning key product management. We've been doing it about 10 years now. And yeah, we work with, you know, our specialty is Amazon full service management. You know, mainly brands that are doing close to six figures a month. And then we try to scale them as quickly as we can to the next level. And, you know, describe it as a boutique agency. We've got about 20 team members, so we're not huge and we try to be really selective with our clients. And yeah, it's been a great ride here.
Speaker 1Let's talk about creators and content and Tik TOK shop. I want to talk about the stuff that is really the gasoline on the fire that we've seen over the last two years or so. Still some of the best white space in e-commerce, Ryan Rigney. What are you seeing happening in the Tik TOK shop? world right now and how are you finding and partnering with the creators that are moving the needle?
Speaker 3I wouldn't say that TikTok shop space has changed too much over the last eight to 12 months. It's really been just driven by get as many posts as you can up and the brands need to be running GMV max ads. That might be the main change that has happened in the last year, where it's like very, your success is very dependent on how many pieces of content you have going up per day. And are you willing to spend behind those pieces of content with GMV max ads? It's essentially TikTok's like auto advertising. It picks up the pieces of content that have authorization for ads, which should be most of them. And it diverts spend to the best ones. So that's the TikTok shop side. I'm also seeing a lot more like scaled AI content in the recent months on Instagram, TikTok, which I can talk about later as well.
Speaker 1Now, when you say creating as much as possible, does that mean getting as many creators? Is possible? Does that mean getting them to do as much creative as possible? Like what? What's what's the play behind that?
Speaker 3Most most brands I know that have any volume, they have their own creator communities, where it's usually like a discord community, there's other ways to do it too. But you're you're you have a central meeting point where people can get strategy and resources and access to your team where they actually want to keep posting for you. There is a lot of volume in just giving out as many samples as you can, too. There's automation, there's automation, there's automated tools like Yuka AI that can help you do that. It's kind of in some respects, like whoever is the winner, they take all because they have the biggest budget to send more but more samples. So building a relationship with people that can post more regularly is essential, I would say for like, especially newer brands that are trying to break out on the
Speaker 1platform. Now, you take a lot of focus into nurturing those relationships with creators, and they're not one off posts, you're really, you're building a long term relationship. Could you share a little bit about what these creators are earning and how bought in they are? Because the way that you do it is very different than how a lot of other tick tock shop supposed experts do it. And some of these creators are making bank by serving as affiliates for recommending other people's e commerce products.
Speaker 3Well, I learned I learned a lot from learning ecom through you indirectly, I would say and I applied that to the this space where, you know, there's a lot of new entrepreneurs, you could say people that want to make their first dollar online and affiliate marketing is how they're how they're doing it. And we're, we're helping teach them, you know, you can post and you can get a sale and you can get a commission. Here's how you do it. We're teaching them from the ground, sometimes, or it's somebody that's been trying and they haven't had the success, they start getting their first success with us. And then we're like, you know, here's a couple brands we can connect you with. We're going to pay you starting is like if they're brand new beginner, they have no experience, we're going to, it's about $10 per post, it comes out to about $300 a month. And then they get commission on any results they get. So they have basically infinite upside. And then they have a fixed amount that they're going to get just for trying. And the brand is almost always going to end up on top because $300 for, you know, 30 posts that you can spark, it's pretty hard. It's pretty hard to lose money on that, even if the creator is new, because they're getting trained, and they have like, here's like the minimum you have to have for quality before you can start posting and getting paid. for it. And, you know, we have some safeguards for that sort of thing.
Speaker 1So and what is the most amount of money you've seen a creator make as an affiliate doing this?
Speaker 3Ones that I personally known have made over 100,000 in a month. There are some that have made like probably over a million a month, I would say like rare cases, but I know a kid in Los Angeles that we taught him from scratch. And I think he had like a $15,000 day. His those are his commissions.
Speaker 1Yeah. So what does that mean in terms of volume for the brand that he's promoting? You know, millions in GMB a month? The cheese and crackers?
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah. I mean, the brands that we work with directly are usually like in the 200 to 600 per month range, 200 to 600k per month. But you know, the big brands, sometimes if they go, they get lucky, and they do enough reps, they'll get they'll get lucky. And they'll have, you know, $50,000 day. I've seen it.
Speaker 1Beautiful. Now, Jeff, how how important is Amazon's version of this, the Amazon creator program? And quite honestly, I have not poked around in this at all. But Tiktok shop gets all of the attention when it comes to creator programs and ecommerce. And I know Amazon is at least dip their toe in this, but I know very little but a little about Amazon's creator program. How big of an opportunity is it? Is it something that brand owners should focus on?
Speaker 4Yeah, for sure. I mean, Amazon, you know, they're the everything store, right? They want to take over every every possible industry and niche. And you know, obviously, Tiktok shop has become a big, big competitor to them. And so I think they've really put a focus on Amazon creator connections and expanded it and made it a lot easier. So yeah, it's working really well. We run it for pretty much almost all of our clients. Basically, like, how it works is it's Amazon creator connections. And within the portal, you can basically find commission only, you know, creators and influencers. And so it's like very low risk, basically. So you can like run it as a system. You can, you know, typically the commissions you pay, we recommend between 10 and 30%. Higher attracts better creators, right? But most of them are just commission only. Occasionally, you know, as you're messaging them, some will want to do a fixed fee or an additional payment amount. But you just evaluate those as they come in and look, you know, how successful are they? How engaging are they? You know, is this a good fit for my brand? And you know, it's a good foot in the door to negotiate those relationships. But what's nice is like, it's really easy just to, like, you know, send out lots of messages to all these creators that just commission only. Like, that's the simplest way to start. And yeah, I mean, we had one client that they did, we basically sell like a $15,000 budget. That's what's cool, too. You can set budgets so it doesn't go like out of control if you don't want it to. So we did a 15k budget and it drove over $150,000 in sales from a variety of different creators through that network. So it's definitely, it's not too hard to test it. And highly recommend, you know, checking out for your brand for sure.
Speaker 1Is the total opportunity size in Amazon's creator program as big as TikTok shop? I mean, obviously, Amazon doesn't have the same lift. Yeah, I wouldn't say that the opportunity is quite as
Speaker 4big where like, TikTok can go viral, super viral overnight, like kind of the cases that Ryan said, right? So that's not quite there yet. But Amazon, you know, they're constantly trying to focus more and more on it. And it's growing, and it's improving all the time. So I think, you know, Amazon, you know, Amazon, you know, Amazon, you know, I think, you know, the earlier you can get in and try it, like see how it goes for your brand. And as Amazon continues to, you know, make it even bigger, I think it could continue to take off. So it's a no brainer to at least test it out. But for certain niches, it can, it can be a lot bigger and better than others, for sure.
Speaker 1Forgive my ignorance. But in the Amazon creator program, is this the, the affiliate, the creator going out and posting it on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and linking back to Amazon? Or are they posting it somewhere else? Help me understand where the creative goes out when the creator signs up to promote your brand.
Speaker 4Yeah, they'll get their trackable links, and they can put it, you know, in a variety of places. So sometimes it's on the actual, you know, they might post it on TikTok or different social channels, sometimes the right blogs, you know, email, email blasts. So it can be used for a variety of use
Speaker 1cases, actually. Okay, so it's more of a general holistic affiliate program than being native to the platform, whereas TikTok shop is, you're going to post the content on TikTok, you're going to link to TikTok shop, the checkout is going to happen on TikTok, the payments are going to happen on TikTok. Amazon is obviously doesn't have a social media platform that's big that's attached to it. So it's their holistic affiliate program. Is that a fair summary?
Speaker 4Yeah, for sure. Good job. Yep.
Speaker 1Okay. Now, Travis, I know you're doing some kind of ninja traffic stuff with blogs. And I think creators are involved in this. And you're seeing some pretty good ROI on some outside traffic. Would you break down the strategy that you're using with some of your clients right now?
Speaker 2I like how you call it ninja, but it's been around for like 20 years since you started in the internet days. It's simply just a landing page. And we send traffic to the landing page. And then the landing page just goes over to Amazon to buy through an attribution link. And that landing page is around the problem that the product solves. I call it my perpetual sales machine. And because once you get this going, and once you get a landing page, or a blog post, or a sales page, whatever you want to call this page, once you get that trafficked, a lot of traffic going to it, and then once you get it converting, traffic buying, when they go over to Amazon, it just becomes this machine that just keeps printing money. And a lot of people think this is a dying method, but landing pages, and sales pages, and blog posts are still alive now more than ever. Chat GPT and all the AIs hasn't replaced it yet. And we're still seeing just as many clicks today as we were five years ago, as we were 10 years ago. And this is industry agnostic, because I have done this for my practices. When I had brick and mortar stores, we were doing the same strategy. I've done it for charities, I've done it for Amazon businesses, I've done it for law firms, I've done it for a wide variety of industries. And it works because you're focusing around problem-based marketing. And so a quick example of that is we had an acid reflux company, we sold acid reflux supplements. We had a blog called The GERD Chef. GERD stands for gastroesophageal reflux disease. And so everybody we knew that was going to that website around GERD, acid reflux, heartburn, we knew they'd like our product. So what we did is we put display advertising all over this website, but we didn't do like Google AdSense or anything. We put our own product as the display advertising, as the banner ads, as the pop-ups, and then they'd click an attribution link to go buy on Amazon. So that shot external traffic over to Amazon, which increases your rank, which increases your profits. But then we can also build an email list from that as well. And so it's going back to the basics of what used to be a product, but now it's going back to the basics of what used to be a work 10 to 20 years ago.
Speaker 1And where's that outside traffic coming from? I mean, it's one thing to spin up a website and put an email capture on there, put display ads on there. Great. But where's the traffic coming from?
Speaker 2Yeah, that's a great question. And this goes back to both strategies that we just talked about, especially the TikTok shop strategy. Most people post something or expect organically things just to work. And nobody is paying attention to that much that if you just post something, it's just going to magically get traffic. And so what I like to do is call it a push-pull method. So pulling is when you are pulling organic traffic, that's creators organic reach, that's these blog posts organic reach, which might not be much. But then I like to push traffic to it too. And that's through advertising. And so what we'll do is a Google ad to the blog post, and then the blog post over to Amazon. Same thing with TikTok and what Ryan was saying. A creator creates an organic video that may or may not get reach. But then when you put GMV max ads behind it, you're going to get a lot of reach. And you create virality with your blog posts. You create virality with that creator's video as a result of pushing ads first. And then the organic will come later as a result of you pushing ads first.
Speaker 1This makes my heart so happy. It's like it's 2012 all over again. I just like, well, I mean, the way that I made my first six figures as an internet marketer was I put up a shoddy little website. with articles on it. And I sold things in those articles. And I ran Google traffic to those landing pages. Some people clicked on those links, and they bought things from my affiliate link. And essentially, you are running the exact same playbook, but sending that over to Amazon. So you get the benefit of outside traffic. And so Amazon rewards you. Is that correct?
Speaker 2That's 100% correct. And I learned it from you 11 years ago. But here's the here's the key part. Most people focus on product based keywords. So like if I'm selling an acid reflux supplement, they're going to get a lot of traffic. And I'm going to get a lot of traffic. And I'm going to after acid reflux supplement, whereas I'm focusing on problem based keywords, GERB, heartburn, acid reflux, when you focus on the problem, the cost per click is like 10 cents or less versus product, which is going to be $1 to $10 to $20, depending on your industry.
Speaker 1And this is mostly Google AdWords traffic for search intent traffic that you're sending. What are you seeing as the cost of that right now? Because it's come in waves. And now with Gemini and ChatGPT, it's come in waves. And now I really haven't heard many people talking about the cost of Google ads right now. So what do they look like right now?
Speaker 2It was 10 years ago, it's five years. Oh, my goodness. It's still so dirt cheap when you focus on the problem. The problem that is so key is focusing on the problem. And we just sent 2000 clicks to our website last week for $200. I mean, it was
Speaker 1nothing. All right, I want to highlight this moment here because you're seeing this come up a lot external traffic. I got into e commerce after I had five years of internet marketing experience. So this was sort of second nature to me, I noticed that if I built a small audience, and I nurtured that audience, and I sent that over to the platform that I was selling on that I got the best of all worlds. And most e commerce entrepreneurs do not think about that at all. They just think about maximizing their exposure on the platform. Here's how we generate external traffic. We create content, that can be whatever content you want, and send them over to an email capture. And then we build relationships with the people who opt in. Sometimes we build relationships with people via Facebook group. Gosh, in the old days, I used to just call people or email people manually. It looks a lot like work, but it's building the relationships with that core group of customers that are going to buy from you regardless of where you are taking your sale. If you have a small group of people that actually care to hear from you, and then you send them over to the platform where you are taking the order, that is just enough external traffic to get the algorithm to work in your favor. This is beautiful. This is this is making my heart so happy because all of us here have been in marketing or e commerce for for more than 10 years. I think I've known each of you for more than 10 years. So what are you seeing different today in the marketplace versus five to 10 years ago? And what principles haven't changed at all? Ryan, you're probably most on the cutting edge since you're involved in the newest platform being TikTok shop. So what are you seeing that is different from five years ago? And what hasn't changed at all?
Speaker 3What hasn't changed at all? I mean, the product, the product and the quality of the product still key for customer retention and your reputation. But I think that's the thing that won't change. A lot of the other things have changed, I would say like, the AI tools we have available now, like, if you're not like using Claude on a daily basis to help you work, it's, I just, I honestly don't know what to say. Because it's like you have you have infinite superpowers, if you know how to use it. And it takes like a couple days to figure it out. For marketing for product research for literally anything, you can clean up your entire company's workspace and build your whole bureaucratic, you know, tree and everything that you've never had the time to do in a couple minutes, like just by telling it the right thing. So it's like, it's like, if you're not going to take advantage of cleaning up your house with the first, that's a good thing to do. Figuring out one marketing channel that you can automate or systematize with this, where you can run it on a schedule. Like, there's so many examples of what you can do, like, you know, your Google Ads, you could plug it into Google Ads and have it run your Google Ads on a schedule for you. You could have it do research for you. And that like, it's not even that hard to do anymore.
Speaker 1Well, are you using it to go in and manage your Google AdWords account? Yeah, you can. And I do. As well. Travis, do you do that with your old school principal's ninja strategy? That's just what I'm going to call it. You call it my perpetual sales machine. I call it your old school principal ninja strategy. So are you using Claude to go in and manage your?
Speaker 2We have not started using Claude with Google Ads yet. We're using it with our Amazon side, but not Google yet.
Speaker 1This is wild. So Ryan, basically what I'm hearing you say is the principals haven't changed, but the tools have changed a lot.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah. You have like your own brain that's on 24, 7 that doesn't mess up working for you. So duplicate yourself, please.
Speaker 1And Jeff, Jeff, what about you on the Amazon side? What has changed in the last five years versus what hasn't changed at all?
Speaker 4Yeah, I'd say first comes to mind is it has become more of a pay to play, unfortunately. So if you look at like the search results on Amazon, I mean, over half the search results when you search for a product are actually ads. Amazon's trying to make sure that they make money as well and make money first. And so, you know, so that's why you really have to, I think, if you want to grow to a multimillion dollar brand on Amazon, you've got to be doing great at Amazon PPC and Amazon DSP ads. That's absolutely critical. The other thing that's evolved is, you know, five years ago, or, you know, especially when we all got in, you could just launch on Amazon only and you're just an Amazon only brand and get a hot product and hot niche. I think, unfortunately, those days are over and you have to do, unfortunately, all the hard work and principles that you need to do to build a great brand, build a great customer base, serve your customer, build a great product and do it not just on Amazon, but on your website and on TikTok shop. You don't have to do like all three or four channels all at once, you know, but you do need to come up with a plan to get to at least two channels, I would say, to diversify because Amazon's a great customer acquisition channel, but you will make more money and profit on your website in the long run. So I think that's a big one. Yeah, those are some of the things that I've been teaching for over 10 years. I've been teaching some of the big things
Speaker 1that come to mind. Jeff, I want to stay on the algorithm where you mentioned that the it's a pay to play marketplace right now, but the algorithm is still where the free traffic comes from and is still what a lot of Amazon sellers want to unlock because if you can get strong placements, you get lots of free traffic. Could you break down if the algorithms ranking system has changed at all and what numbers you need to optimize for in order to show up for the most profitable keywords?
Speaker 4So yeah, step one is, you know, we call like different momentum loops. So at turnkey, so basically optimization loop is number one. So you got to do great keyword research and know what you're targeting for because it's a lot more competitive now than it was five years ago. So you want to get really focused on what exactly my product is and making sure like what are the top five keyword phrases that like, that's what I'm targeting for. And then you want to get really That's my, if I show up in that result, like I'm the best product out there for that, search result and i want to go after that so you got to optimize your listing on the front end on the back end with keywords uh so that you're optimized and indexed so that's one and then you know make sure you have the traffic loop going as well ppc and dsp uh getting really aggressive say on those top five to ten keyword phrases right that'll help you with ranking um because amazon sees oh you know jeff's spending a lot of money on this keyword phrase and they're getting a really good conversion rate click-through rate and sales and so that will help you you know over time to do that to start organically ranking um and one thing that's changed as well is amazon values external traffic a lot more than i think it used to um so like what travis was talking about with uh you know it doesn't matter where the traffic comes from like amazon just they track where everything and then anytime they see external traffic coming in they really value that and it's going to help boost your sales so if you have i always say for brands like whatever your asset is like some people have a great email list right some people like ryan might have a great tick tock shop or tick tock influencer list of influencers and so you know whatever your asset is it's good to temporarily i think what i call turn on the fire hose and point it towards amazon let's say when you're launching a brand new product it needs traffic it needs sales in order to get reviews it's like it takes time to snowball so external traffic has become a lot more important that'll build up your reviews which are a lot harder today than they were five years ago so i think if you just if you do all those things i know it's a lot of stuff you gotta do a lot of stuff right um but if you do that's where i mean we've had multiple clients that are scaling to you know over a million dollars a month um so that's what's possible on amazon still
Speaker 1now jeff do you think that the outside traffic matters because outside traffic converts at a higher rate so conversion rate is actually the number to optimize for or is it the the actual function of outside traffic to amazon that is feeding it what it wants what what do you think is the reason why outside traffic is helping with organic rank
Speaker 4i've seen that i mean you still have to get sales from it like you can't just you know go get uh some ai bots to send a thousand visitors to your listing and not buy anything like that will end up hurting you so you do want i think you know you want targeted traffic like from an email list or an early pre you know we'd like to do like pre-launch vip list right of like hey we're launching this product next month and you build up that list so like you're gonna get a really high conversion rate on those sales so i think that really helps they like the external traffic and if you can bring in actually like a higher conversion rate from that traffic than just the average amazon search customer uh amazon loves that as well so you definitely want targeted
Speaker 1traffic yeah i i'm trying i i haven't made up my mind on this yet jeff because i've anecdotally i've i've seen the same thing that outside traffic absolutely helps with amazon exposure what i haven't yet figured out is is amazon rewarding just the fact that i'm bringing people to the platform and it's coming from outside traffic or is it because i have a good connection with my email list and so the conversion rate goes up and i haven't been able to figure that out because i'm not in the olden days you would send people through a keyword and then they would buy through that keyword and amazon would reward that because it sort of artificially manipulated the conversion rate for a keyword but now if i just send an email to my list and they buy i'll see a lift in the overall organic traffic so do you do you have a thesis of how amazon is factoring that into the overall algorithm score yeah
Speaker 4i mean i think it's you know they want targeted traffic that you know if you send 100 customers like you want to be you know getting at least you know 10 20 30 sales out of that um ideally so i do think that you want targeted conver you know high converting traffic in an in an ideal world for sure um because i think conversion rate just in general on amazon is one of the most important uh you know search algorithm ranking factors and how they decide who to put on the page um so if you can send you know higher traffic or higher sales converting traffic from your whatever list email list or google ads like like travis uh they're going to reward you for that uh but if you don't if it's untargeted and they're not converting or bringing in match sales uh that actually might hurt you
Speaker 1travis do you have a similar or a different take because you're sending external traffic but you're also managing a whole bunch of in pay-per-click traffic as well so what is your take on this topic
Speaker 2a little bit of devil's advocate for this because um the external traffic matters to a certain point and you said something where it converts higher it actually converts a lot lower when you send external traffic from our strategy because we're sending cold traffic from google to a blog post and then the blog post over to amazon and so that traffic actually doesn't convert that well it usually converts anywhere between one and five percent but it still increases the organic rank significantly and the reason is because amazon rewards a few things on platform sales velocity conversion rate if you can just focus on those two things sales velocity and conversion rate that's it you're going to win on amazon now the external traffic piece amazon knows its lifetime value of customers it's like 2 300 for a prime member it's like almost a thousand dollars for a non-prime member and you're sending people that maybe you're sending to a non-prime member it's almost a thousand dollars for a non-prime member it's almost a thousand dollars for a non-prime member it's almost a thousand dollars over to amazon to buy and so amazon's like yes we've captured another customer i'm going to reward this person who just sent me outside traffic because i know they're going to buy a mattress they're going to buy a tv they're going to buy a gaming system they're going to buy all these other things as a result of you sending that traffic so and this is not like i don't know the amazon algorithm but my thought is like they know how much they're going to extract out of that so they're going to reward you even if your conversion rate's low for that external traffic and but like jeff said you still have to make sales you can't just send a bunch of traffic it has to make some sales but the conversion rate is usually lower from our strategy but it's still boost rank
Speaker 1so in other words it's almost like amazon is rewarding the total dollars per customer not even what they spend on your product but what they spend overall as a customer or as a prime customer is that right knows the lifetime value of that customer that is really interesting question for both of you before i go over to ryan i want to know i i am starting to think that amazon calculates part of its algorithm based on not just conversion rate but dollars per click meaning how much they are earning per click so if your conversion rate is the same as someone else with a lower price point you may rank higher than that because the overall earnings for the platform are higher so if you convert the same rate but the price is higher you're going to be more favorable in the amazon algorithm jeff would you agree or disagree with that thesis yeah i mean it's
Speaker 4hard to hard to say exactly because i don't you know it's hard to know that that data exactly um so yeah i can't speak um to that i mean it does make sense uh for sure but um yeah i don't know that's uh that's a tough one i haven't seen that
Speaker 1but from from your perspective the benefit there would be just that the increased margin would allow you to spend more on advertising which is going to make you show up for more keywords yeah
Speaker 4exactly like we've just seen that work a lot better um like as a whole like our clients like they just need to have good enough margin to do all the things that we need to do run coupons run ppc um and then all that compounds to to do so if you lower your price and you know yeah maybe your conversion rate goes up yeah you might get a little bit better ranking in the short term but it might actually hurt you because your profits are gone so um you kind of have to weigh weigh both i would say travis
Speaker 1what do you have an opinion on if pricing affects your organic ranking on amazon i i do it
Speaker 2all goes back to conversion rate as long as your conversion rate is high amazon's going to want to show you because if if i'm an amazon algorithm and i'm deciding which product i want to show this customer i'm going to show the one that converts higher and that's selling more because my goal with being amazon is i want you to get on find what you're looking for buy it and then get off and so you want that high conversion rate that high sales velocity product and you're going to push that in front of them and so going back to like the earnings per click thing if you are in the affiliate marketing world you know this but like that's the main metric that all affiliates go by and if your earnings per click isn't high enough they won't even like touch you they'll just be like yeah not enough for us and then they'll move on and so amazon's kind of the same way it's just like how much can i earn per click which one converts higher which one has more sales which one's going to more likely end in the purchase and that's how you have to think about it all the time
Speaker 1ryan you are known now for your presence on tick tock shop but you started selling in the old school e-commerce ways that all of us that i currently sell on so when you started running traffic from tick-tock and it spills over to amazon did you notice that there was a lift from that outside traffic to your amazon listings
Speaker 3yeah the it's like a direct correlation a lot of people will not complete the purchase on tick-tock shop because they don't feel comfortable there or they want to go price compare on amazon or they want to see if you have reviews over there and you're not a scammer and they'll end up buying it over there so i see you know as i put more dollars into the tick-tock shop ads i see the amazon sales you see
Speaker 1the sales go up but do you also see the organic ranking go up i i
Speaker 3have like a more of a controversial take on this where i don't really care so much about organic rank, I care about how much profit I make on a daily basis. And I've seen, you know, over the last 10 years, Amazon, they just put all the ad placements up top. There's two different ways to play Amazon, there's charge less and rank better organically, but you can't really run ads profitably, or you charge more. And you can run ads profitably. But you have to be mindful of conversion rate either way. Because ultimately, like dollar, how much money are you going to get from the ads where you can be sustainable and run the ads long term? Right? Because you can't just charge, you know, $150 for a $50 product and get the ads to work because the conversion rate is going to be so low. There has to be a balance where you're like, do I want to play the ad game where I'm being really aggressive, and I can dominate all the ad placements over the long term? Or do I want to charge like rock bottom, and I can't really run the ads and I can rank
Speaker 1organically. Ryan, I would like for you to explain to us how the TikTok shop algorithm works, not how does something go viral on TikTok, but the actual shop algorithm? Because a lot of people do not factor in the amount of exposure that happens when your product starts to show up in the shop itself. So would you help us understand how the TikTok shop algorithm works?
Speaker 3There's a pretty good amount of shop traffic where people are actually on the shop tab and browsing and then your product might pop up organically in there. But there are also paid placements in the shop tab as well. That's why a lot of time when you refresh it, you're going to see the same brands over and over like Goalie or any, if you're shopping in wellness, you're going to see like the same wellness brands because the budget behind their GMV Max ads, a lot of it's going to the shop tab as well. For the algorithm, it's, you know, nobody, things have changed a little bit since the acquisition, like it changes every month of TikTok. But it's kind of just like, it's almost random, because like you could have the same piece of content posted by the same person, not really any major business. So it's, you know, there's a lot of different ways to do it. And it's, you know, there's, there's a lot of different ways to do it. And it's, you know, there's a lot of different ways to do it. But it's, you know, there's a lot of different ways to do it. And one just gets picked up and starts going viral. And the other one gets, you know, 150 views. It's like, put in the reps, and sometimes something gets picked up.
Speaker 1Well, specifically, specifically, what I mean, Ryan, is there are affiliates and creators who are going into TikTok shop, and they're looking for products to promote. And if something shows up in TikTok shop more prominently, they're more likely to reach out and want to promote that product. And if they see that there's a lot of people making money, from selling that product, they're more likely to want to promote that product. So how do you get more visibility in the shop itself to show up in front of other creators and affiliates?
Speaker 3Right. Well, giving free samples is key. And then also giving more commissions is important. When you're a new brand, and you don't have the credibility behind what you're doing, you generally have to pay more to get people to start posting. It's kind of a little bit of like a winner take all scenario, to be completely honest with you for the top brand, whoever has the most GMV on the charts, they're going to check the chart, and they're going to see, you know, NeuroGum, Goalie, MediCube, I want to promote those products. That's what everybody else is doing. And it's kind of like a never ending snowball of momentum that the winners take all. How do you break through when you're brand new, you have to generally pay more, or you have to build the relationships and compensate them more upfront with commissions or flat amounts to get them moving?
Speaker 1Yeah. Is showing those brands according to total GMV? Or are there other factors that they're, they're weighing and who they show up in the shop?
Speaker 3They can sort by category and GMV. They can see trend lines as well, like which ones are a lot of a lot of creators will try to pick up trends like before they start to pop. So you can set a filter on these tools where it's like, show me the brands that are trending the most in the right direction over the last 30 days. And then they'll go through this list. And they'll be like, you know, this is something I'd like to promote, let me go ask for a sample in shop. And if they get the sample, then they'll promote it. Sometimes they'll buy it because they want to be like, quick on the gun before they start sending samples to everybody. And that's kind of like, I would say the higher level people, they, they take the little extra step to get the product in their hand before everybody else. So they're the first piece of content out.
Speaker 1And what would you say is important for a brand to have in place in order to show up and look like a player when a creator looks them up and reaches out interested in promoting their product versus somebody else? Like what is what does a brand need to have in place?
Speaker 3A lot of it's similar to like Amazon optimization, you need your listing fully built out, you need your store built out some kind of. Third party validation that you have done something if you can, if you haven't done that yet, then, you know, maybe work on getting some press release or something where it's like, you know, as, as seen on this source, this person talked about it, or, you know, 10,000 reviews online, so you can't say Amazon on TikTok, but you know, just find some creative way to give yourself some credibility. Because if you search literally any product on TikTok, you're going to see like 100 clones. And, you know, they're all fake, they're, they're, they're cloning the product that's on top. And it's like a whack-a-mole game, these brands play like pulling down the copycats that hop on. And it's kind of like how Amazon used to be with like, people jumping on the buy boxes and things like that.
Speaker 1Yeah, is TikTok shop still this still in the wide open West period where there's all kinds of weird stuff happening? Is that still the case right now?
Speaker 3Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if they'll ever put a lid on that or if they care to. But it's fun.
Speaker 1I want to talk, I want to talk about results that each of you have seen over the last 12 to 24 months. Jeff, I know that you've taken several clients to a million dollars a month. And I would like to hear you break down what worked there. Is it just that the market is bigger now? Or are there specific strategies that you're seeing be able to take a brand to that type of scale?
Speaker 4Yeah, I think the, you know, the market has definitely grown. I mean, Amazon just continues to grow every year. But that's certainly not why because otherwise, almost every brand would just be doing a million dollars a month on Amazon. And that would be nice. But that's not the case. It's not just some cookie cutter off the shelf, you know, opportunity seeker. It's truly like a great product. It tends to be premium price product. And all of these are repeat purchase type brands. So they understand that they can get six or seven orders of that same product from from one customer in a year. So they, they really understand the math and we help them understand the math from an Amazon perspective, like what their LTV is, what their repeat purchase rate is. We're trying to grow subscribe and save for them on Amazon. So those are some of the things that like are common attributes. And then that allows us to know. And then also they have big catalogs. So you know, not just one product or two products, but you know, most of these have like 510 15 skews that like all are really great products and we can cross sell and do lots of cool stuff between them. And then another common attribute is they definitely, you know, all are willing to spend money on advertising, they understand like that's how you scale at that level. And so you know, they give us very specific profitability metrics by product and we'll narrow down like this product has a, you know, XYZ percentage, you know, a 30% net margin, you know, but that product has a 50% net margin. And so we'll actually fine tune our advertising targets for like how aggressive we can get on specific products. So that's something that I think really helps us to scale profitably. And another thing too, is this a lot of these brands, they all tend to be doing at least one really good external traffic source. So a lot of them, a lot of them they have, they're doing, you know, they have great meta is probably the most common where like they've scaled meta ads and continue to push that. So they get, you know, some spillover onto Amazon as well as onto their website. TikTok shop, we've seen that a lot more commonly as well. So they usually have at least two channels in total that's driving the growth and then it all helps each other. Amazon traffic goes to TikTok, TikTok goes to Amazon, Shopify, and you know, and it's the ones that they're not worried about, like, oh, like I want to protect my, my customers on this channel. Like it's the ones that like, they just want to acquire customers, deliver a great experience. They don't really care where, what platform they buy on because they deliver such a great experience to the customer that they're going to buy from them again, whether it's on the website or Amazon and all that. And we do have some clients that they, they are worried about cannibalization. And so we do do some strategies to help avoid cannibalization of their Shopify sales to to Amazon. Yeah, those are some of the things that come to mind that we've seen.
Speaker 1Jeff brings up a really important point here, which is that the best clients that he sees be successful are the ones that know their lifetime customer value. They are not just betting on the short term profit of what somebody buys today. He's banking on that customer coming back and buying three, four more times. If you know those numbers, then you can effectively predict what you're going to have to spend to acquire a customer. And I personally am more than willing to. to overpay to get a customer who buys on subscribe and save, or that is going to come back and buy over and over again. You can really only do that if you either have a large number of SKUs, or my preference, you have a consumable brand of some kind. This is true in beauty, in food, topicals, skincare, supplements, and is also true in pets. That's why those are some of my favorite markets. If you want to build a high margin consumable brands where you can get repeat customers who are buying from you every month and have a high amount of profit so you have the foundation that you can scale to seven figures or even sell one day, you can find out how we help people get into that game by going over to capitalism.com slash bootcamp and getting on the waiting list for our next cohort. Jeff, this is really fun because the way that you broke that down is it seems like a very logical math formula. If your product converts and you have enough margin and you know what your lifetime value is going to be, then you'll know how much money you can spend and how aggressive you can be to acquire customers. As long as the math checks out, you should continue scaling that one, two, skip a few, 99, a million dollars a month.
Speaker 4That's simple. Yeah.
Speaker 1That's how you do it. Okay. Now I would like to know, Travis, with the brand, what's your favorite brand? What's your favorite brand? What's your favorite brands that you're acquiring or the ones that you are advising? What is the biggest or the fastest delta that you've seen of going from X revenue per month to growing it over the last 12 to 24 months?
Speaker 2So Jeff just said it and I'm going to second it. And it's having more than one channel. The days of just relying on Amazon alone and hoping that that scales is going to be, it's going to be hard for you because word of mouth works incredibly well. And when you have that second channel, whether that be meta ads, your Shopify store or what's working best right now is TikTok shop. You're creating just more word of mouth. And then the client or the client, the, the, the customer is seeing you on more than one place. And so they're seeing you over on TikTok. They're seeing you on Amazon and they may see you on meta. So the clients that I have that are, I don't want to say struggling, cause that just makes me sound bad, but the clients that aren't scaling as fast are the ones that are just trying to rely on Amazon. And so the thing that we do, we're buying a brand right now. We should close pretty soon within the next three weeks. And they are an Amazon only brand. They onboarded with us two and a half years ago. We've grown them 40% in year one, 10% in year two, and they're kind of starting to get stagnant. Cause we've gotten to the top of the ranking as they're only relying on Amazon. And so the first thing we're doing, we've already opened up their TikTok shop and we're going to get ready to launch that on day one that we acquire the brand. So we're going over to TikTok shop using the strategy Ryan talked about. And the first thing we're going to do is we're going to get ready to launch that brand. So we're going to get ready to launch that brand. So we're going to The difference between brands that make it on TikTok shop and the ones that don't are the ones that are willing to give away for the longest period of time. Goalie, we use that as an example today. They give away like 7,000 units a week for their supplements. Whereas in like, we really recommend a conservative launch is like 30, giving away 30 a week, a hundred is aggressive for brands that are, you know, under that one to 2 million in size. And if you want to get super aggressive, you're going to have to play with the big dogs and give away 7,000 a week. And you have to have cash flow to do that. You have to have the inventory and logistics to do that. So I usually recommend starting with a hundred a week, but if you have the cash flow and inventory go for more, because like Ryan said, the more you get out there, the better, and then you're going to get more word of mouth. And then they're going to buy on TikTok shop, but most of them are going to go over to Amazon to buy. And so you create this multi-channel strategy that just helps lift the entire boat. So this business that we're buying is doing about 4.25 million. Top line on Amazon. We think we can get them to 10 million within the next year and a half just by focusing on TikTok shop.
Speaker 1All right. I want to cut in and clarify something here, because I think what Jeff and Travis are talking about being on multiple channels is exactly the right advice, but only once you're over a million dollars a year. If you are just starting out, I personally would not recommend that you try to be on multiple sales channels. It's just too much for you to manage, especially if you're just bootstrapping this thing and you're a solo founder. Now, if you've raised a bunch of capital and you've got a team and you're operating at a loss and you're cool with that, go for it. Be on multiple channels. It's how you'll build a really big brand fast. But if you're a scrappy startup entrepreneur, I think that the fastest way to $100,000 a month or a million dollars a year is to commit to one darn channel and give it your all for at least six to 12 months. Once you're at a million dollars or more, then you've got enough profit. You've got enough momentum to be able to branch off and go into other channels. And yes, I do see people double their business or increase 50% when they go over and add a second channel and it's effective. But I also see new entrepreneurs try to go into multiple channels at the same time and it kills their business. So my advice, go deep into one channel first, then you branch off and add other channels. And the giveaways that you're talking about, a metric that you said for TikTok shop creators to go in and get a free sample, right? And then they may or may not do a piece of content about it.
Speaker 2Yeah. So we use the same program Ryan uses, Yuka. And then they reach out. We set up little bots to reach out with messages. People request samples. You then approve them. We try to approve anybody that's done over $10,000 in revenue or GMV per month. And then that's the only ones we approve. And then they start making videos. But the big unlock there is that when you start pulling them into your GMV max ads, you're paying them 8% for advertising affiliate commission. And then you're paying like 20 to 30%, like Jeff was saying, in organic commission. But then when you combine that and they're starting to get commission from organic and paid, they start making more videos for you. And so you're giving away 30 units a week or 100 units a week. You're not getting 30 videos back a week. And affiliates that are smart, they will start making more videos for you because you're pulling them into the ads. Most brands are not running the ads. They just are relying on the creator's organic reach, which is that's that push and pull strategy I talked about earlier. You have to do both to succeed.
Speaker 1Ryan, what about you? What's the biggest zero to one or transformation story that you've seen on TikTok shop in the last year to two years?
Speaker 3I want to kind of set the framework of the story too, because this is somebody that I learned e-commerce directly indirectly through you. And then I taught a couple people how to do it. And one of those people that I taught like seven years ago, they were starting on Amazon and they reached out to me like two years ago. They're like, Hey, Ryan, can you help me get on TikTok shop? They were selling a book on Amazon that was like filling out your family story. It was called questions about me. They were doing zero on TikTok shop and we helped them create a simple repeatable formula for like an emotional story of somebody filling out something about you. And it was a real story too, about how their, their mother had passed away. And this was like a book that they are glad that they, or they wished that they had had at the time. And it went through like some of the questions, just a very simple, like repeatable video. And within, I would say two and a half months, they went from zero to 400 K a month, just with about 15, 15 creators or so, because it was, it was the right product at the right time on TikTok shop, where it was like a very emotional story, simple, repeatable content formula and a good product that already had
Speaker 1validation on Amazon. And does that, do those sales numbers hold, or is that a spike that then goes away?
Speaker 3It's like, they're a little bit seasonal in this particular case, but it's usually like varies between 200 to 500 K depending on like which holidays there. Cause they have a whole set of books. They have one for like, they advertise around mother's day, father's day, Valentine's day. And then, you know, there's like different holiday. I don't know all of them, but there's a couple others too.
Speaker 1Help me understand a little bit of the peaks and valleys that happen on TikTok shop, because say, sometimes I've seen it where, you know, a video will hit and you get a whole bunch of exposure, but then it sort of dies off until the next video hits. So, but then there's, there's other examples where, you know, you get a lift and then things stay really hot for a long time. So help us understand that the, the different ebbs and flows that happen on TikTok shop.
Speaker 3Having the GMB max ads on and having that like commission set makes it a little bit more stable. The biggest ebbs and flows you would have is when a really hot video that's converting well on ads gets like disapproved or banned, which does happen sometimes. So if you're putting a lot of ad spend behind something and you know, your competitors don't like it, they'll just start reporting. It gets pulled. Then you make another one. Then the other one goes up. The other one comes back later. Doesn't come back with the same velocity as before. So it's kind of just keep the volume going, keep the ads going to the new creative. That's similar to what's working. And you're always one step ahead of that. But there are like, you know, outliers where it's like, a really hot piece of content that the algorithm was really loving gets pulled down, you know, your revenues for the brand gets cut in half. And then you have to try to figure out how to repeat that.
Speaker 1Yeah. You know, I have a brand that I'm working with that is seeing these, these ebbs and flows on TikTok. I never thought to ask if they are running ads behind their best converting piece of content. I just assumed they were. And so now I have something to investigate. Thank you for that guys. This, this is, this is fantastic. I want to get, allow each of you to do a quick plug. I want to get, allow each of you to do a quick plug for either what types of businesses you buy and how people should contact you or how to work with you. Ryan, since we're on you, I'll stay with with you? How could people look you up and work with you?
Speaker 3If you're a brand, stayviral.io. You can contact us if you want to get on TikTok shop and you've got some budget. If you don't have any budget, probably not the right fit for you right now. If you have substantial revenue somewhere else and you're not on TikTok shop, it's probably perfect for you. That's how you can contact me.
Speaker 1Beautiful. Travis, you're up next. How do people find you? How can they tell you they want to sell their company? How can they look you up?
Speaker 2Find me at ProfitablePineapple.com. You can click on the work with us button. There's a short form that you can fill out there. I would love to jump on a strategy call with your listeners as well. You can go to ProfitablePineapple.com forward slash strategy call, short form there as well. Then we'll jump on a call and map out the next steps for you, whether that be Amazon DSP, Amazon DSP, TikTok shop, Shopify, whatever it is. We'll just go through that and help you. Get to that next level. That's ProfitablePineapple.com forward slash strategy call.
Speaker 1Is that the same if someone wants to talk to you about acquiring their company?
Speaker 2Yeah. You can come contact me right there. Also, Facebook, just send me a DM.
Speaker 1All right. Great. Jeff, who should contact you and how would they do it?
Speaker 4Yeah. If you want to scale on Amazon, free up your time, free up your team's time, that's what we do. TurnkeyProductManagement.com. We have a ton of free resources there. There's a let's chat button. If you're interested in working with us or seeing if it's a good fit, just connect with us there and we'll see if we think we can help you. We'll let you know. Thanks so much for having us, Ryan. This has been great.
Speaker 1Guys, this is fantastic. Thanks for your time. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us. We'll do this again. This was fantastic. Appreciate you guys. While everybody is talking about AI and everybody is talking about SaaS businesses, I love that there are still e-commerce brands that are going from zero to seven figures and some of them eight. In the period of a year. Just love it. I love being in an industry that everybody else is sleeping on right now. I think one of the best plays in the world right now is building a high margin consumable brand and being really aggressive with your advertising and building the foundation for a multimillion dollar business and eventually an eight-figure exit. It's why my entire business, my entire focus is on building a portfolio of e-commerce brands, why I have a fund that invests in e-commerce brands, why I advise e-commerce brands. If you're an entrepreneur who wants to build one of these and have high margins and repeat orders and build the foundation for something that you can scale and sell, you can get on the waiting list for our next cohort where we help entrepreneurs get into the game over at capitalism.com bootcamp. I am Ryan Daniel Moran with capitalism.com. Thanks for watching. I'll see you guys next time. Take care.
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