How to Get New Reach on Meta: Tactics & Data for Ecommerce Marketing

Last year, 6% of revenue attributed to our travel ads came from non-travel products. But for this period of time that we were looking at, it was over 40%. All of a sudden, we'd given metadata ability to optimize and take credit for purchases of orders that we didn't really want to be generated with those ads and those ad dollars. The non-conditional pixel is almost like, "Hey, find a rich customer who also is interested in travel." But when you had a separate event or a different pixel, find a travel customer. I was inside this ad account and it was just a mess. It was so hard to see what was going well, what wasn't going well, and reality, all that probably wasn't going well because they're trying to do too much all at once. We're here on episode 111 of the Marketing Operators podcast. Guys, this is the first Conor, Cody Conor episode in a while. That's good to be back with the trio. How are we doing? I'm feeling good. I did my first Indian wedding this past weekend. Have you guys been one of those? I haven't, but I've heard their unbelievable one. I think Cody was in an Indian wedding. I'm so, I'm so, I've been. Did you do a, did you do a barat? No, we ended. But yeah, but some of my, my wife is Indian. So I had like a half Indian wedding, but I've been to a bond. It's, they're fun, right? They were blast. Yeah. I mean, it made me feel old. I woke up Sunday morning and I was at my ankles. We're hurting. My knees were hurting. My back was sore. So yeah, I'm feeling good now, but I needed to come. I needed a good 36 hours of recovery. Did you do, like, was it a one-day thing or was it like a whole, multi-day production? It was a multi-day production. I was a part of one of the dances. I got, I wore, I wore a curtla. So I looked, looked sick Friday night. Then we did the barat, or Friday night. Then we did the barat Saturday, which for those unfamiliar. For those who haven't had the pleasure of going to an Indian wedding, the groom gets like paraded in to the wedding ceremony area. And it's just like a big party. It is, it was a blast. Yeah, I know they're, they're really fun if you haven't been. The funniest part of mine is, you know, my side is not great at dancing. It's just all like, you know, Jewish, uncoordinated people. And then like my wife's side is so good at dancing. It's just like so clear to tell who is from what side. Tell it totally. Also, Zane is totally going to clip this. 100%. I was going to say editors know we got to get a little overlay of Connor and his outfit from the weekend. Yeah, have that in the thumbnail. Have that in the thumbnail. Yeah, yeah. All right, well, let's get into it. We want to start today off with some more Reached Testing tactics. I think we went deep Connor when we recorded our episode on some of the, hey, what do you do? First, second, third on tactics to unlock new reach for your brand and your paid media accounts and elsewhere. So Cody said he's also doing a lot of Reached Testing right now. So Cody, I wanted to start off there as like a continuation of the conversation that Connor and I had. So can you speak to what you're doing to test new reach right now? It was so good. By the way, that episode, I thought was really good. And I have tweeted in the past asking if anybody had like data on if, you know, there are times where you need to like break out add accounts for pixels or whatever. And I hadn't really gotten great convincing. I feel like there's a lot of like theories. I think Connor's data that he had based on the, you know, the custom events and cross category stuff and the North Beach stuff was like the most compelling data that I've seen. And so we're looking into that now as well. Because I didn't think or know the couple but so I think that was super interesting and then obviously you did test it. So I was very, you know, I was in the car going to New York on Saturday and I was listening and I sent a whisper flow slack to my team. I was like, you know, scheduled for my name. I was like, I like, if you guys listen to this, like we got to look into our. So I'm excited about that. So I think that's one cool thing. Cody, what are you? I still like, how are you taking that? And because if I remember correctly Connor, you were basically, you're optimizing your, I think travel pixel, your travel event in your campaign set up for that specific purchase event versus your like overall purchase event. Right. So Cody, how are you? What's like the application and JRP? Let me let me like reset it for everybody. Yeah. It'll have been a while since the episode came out. We faced an issue a couple of weeks ago where our travel ads were no longer generating the revenue that we wanted them to. And it wasn't as even, it wasn't even as if the row is for meta had like, you know, fallen off a cliff. It was, it was worse. And then the entire category was struggling. So we were trying to diagnose what the issue was. And what we found was just because of a number of decisions we had made, we'd moved to a non conditional pixel. So the pixel was firing across all purchases. We consolidated our travel ads from their separate ad account into another ad account. And then there was also a creative component too. And I don't want to overlook that. There was just a number of things contributing to, there were a number of differences in how we were setting up our travel related ads. And because of that, we saw a much higher percentage of revenue from our travel ads drive non travel revenue. Last year, 6% of revenue attributed to our travel ads came from non travel products. Which I think is just negligible. That's always going to happen. So it was all of a sudden we'd given meta the ability to optimize and take credit for purchases of orders that we didn't really want to be generated with those ads and those ad dollars. And that's really what we were trying to solve. And that's what could you find so compelling. And like, oh, hey, if you're signal engineering kind of structuring your accounts a little bit more creatively that you might better align meta with, you know, your ultimate objective of what you're trying to sell. Yeah, I feel like it's like the way that you know, the non conditional pixel. So just for everybody, that's like just your standard purchase command. It's almost like, hey, find a rich customer who also is interested in travel. But when you had a separate event or a different pixel, it's, it's find a travel customer. And I think that's at least to me the distinction I'd be curious if somebody's actually technical and understands the pixel better. But it's that's it like what were your what were your reach metrics like outside of looking at, you know, the product breakdown? Like, did you see anything in terms of new visit changes between them? New versus repeat split and north beam? Like, did you see anything on that campaign when you made the switches? We didn't see much of a difference in percent new visits. I mean, the big thing is like average order value changes. The other thing that I'll say here that we've observed a number of times is even in like the most vanilla sort of default setup. We've been able to get travel ads to work if everything is clicking. Like, if we've got good ads, good offer, if it's all working, then the then the vanilla setup will drive the results that we're looking for. But it's as soon as like, there's not great content in the account or for whatever reason. If all of a sudden meta has a difficulty in acquiring carry on customers, we'll see it start to drift down and the average order value will go from being $360, where it should be to $140, which means the vast majority of purchases are coming from, you know, $100 wallets. So that's really where it's just that's the data that we're paying the most attention to. It's funny because you bring it up in terms of reach. And there's obviously a reach component. There must be a targeting component to all of this. What we're looking at more than anything is like the post-click metrics of what what kinds of revenue are we driving, what are the order values. When we spend money on these travel ads, are we seeing a lift in our travel top line revenue, that's subset of revenue that we're looking at every day. So yeah, but I'm glad you got some takeaways as far as reach goes. Well, no, I mean, just theoretically, right? If you think it's a different customer, which is why you're doing the different event, then it should improve reach theoretically, you know, because you're reaching a different time. Yes, totally. So that was why I was just curious. No, so we've, I mean, I've thought about it a lot and we've looked into it, but we never have broken out. We have things on the same pixel. And, you know, I think yes, creative is extremely important and can't overlook that. But I think there's still times where it makes sense. I've talked to like, for example, like, uh, Mandara, a blot out about this. And he's essentially said like it potentially makes sense as long as there's, there's a big enough difference between the two audiences. If a lot of it is the same and there's like, I'm just making up numbers, but let's say it's like 40% overlap, it probably doesn't make sense. And it's probably better to consolidate. But if you're, you know, 6% overlap, like, hey, that's a very different signal. And you might have to feed met at that. And so I also like how you look at the data and remind me, you did a combination of like the custom events as well as Northbeam to see the, the what percentage of other product revenue is coming from. Yeah. Good question. No, we just use Northroom is a really good, um, like product analytics tool. So you can just dive in and say what, what they have, they're showing like Shopify product titles from within the Northroom dashboard and you can filter for what ads, you know, drove those product sales. Motion just dropped their 2026 creative benchmarks report and it's been getting shared everywhere. Slack channels, LinkedIn, Twitter, sharing it in our private group chats. And it's great because everybody's been asking the same four questions forever. What is normal? How many ads should we actually be shipping? What is a healthy hit rate and which formats really win? The report analyzes over 575,000 creatives from 6,000 advertisers and over a billion dollars in ad spend to answer these exact questions. And the report has some really interesting findings like the fact that only 4 to 8% of ads actually become liners and over half of ads actually lose. And for motion customers, this report is especially helpful. You can upload it into your motion dashboard with their run-eth AI chat and compare it directly against your vertical benchmarks. Hit the link in the show notes. I promise you won't regret it. And as always go to motionapp.com and tell the marketing operator sent you. Okay, cool. I like that. And then and then you have different pixels set up or you have like custom events that you're optimizing for. We have, we've always had different pixels. We've been in the process of trying to figure out if we want to consolidate back down. in which case we'd use custom conversions. And this is what I was saying earlier, like I'm still so split. It still seems, I get there's like cleanliness and it's more by the book as far as our meta reps are concerned to have a single pixel with custom conversions. I still am not quite sure on what the upside of it is when we continue to see data that the conditional pixels seem to be good and effective in driving the revenue that we want them to. - I think I've talked about it before. We made a mistake to your point where we pushed our account too heavy into VO and it was a good short-term, long-term, it had pretty big downsides. We were just paying more for every impression we drove and yes, it was higher quality of audience, but it just didn't scale, right? 'Cause not everybody's high value. So what I love about this one is our CPMs are much lower, our reach is much better. We found some interesting data. So cost per incremental better, right? Everything better, click through it worse actually, right? So CPMs way lower, click through it worse, cost per checkout or cost per ad-acart better, but we were not moving, just on IA and again, it's same ad, same files, not moving people from checkout to purchase as well. I don't mind that. I think if you're like, the reason I don't mind it is we're still more efficient on a day one or cost per incremental is still better and we're getting way more ad-acarts. Now, it's my theory is it's a colder audience who has more objections and is dropping off a little bit more, but theoretically, there's more of an incremental impact over time if you're driving the same CPAIA, but with more ad-acarts or more sessions. So I was happy to see that, but it obviously does have a little negative impact on conversion rate in the moment. So you use it CPMs down, click the rates down, is the cost of traffic lower significantly, is click through rate down more than CPM is? I have to check that. I believe CPM is down more than click through rate. So cost of impression significantly lower, cost of traffic lower, cost of, you know, and then that kind of backs out to cost of purchase a little bit lower with more traffic or ad-acarts. And how are you as going about testing it? Like are you just running? Is there a house component? Is there a CLS component? Are you just changing it for certain campaigns and sort of looking at the difference in CPM and CTR and things like that and then deciding how to allocate budgets from there? Like what is that testing process look like? We went CLS primarily because we have house spots on some of these other reach tests, so we didn't have a house spot. So we went CLS. And I think that this is actually a very good one for CLS. And because we don't have any house spots right now, we're just testing a lot of reach things that are timely with campaigns. Our first step was to turn creative testing into IA. We, for whatever reason, I have my theories, we see a much lower percent new on creative testing. And some of it is because our creative needs to be better. And so we're not winning auctions. And so you're going to get, you're not going to reach new audiences if you're not winning bids. Secondly, maybe it's like a budget thing that's part of the bid. And so that was like the first obvious one to do. And I think that's like that whole pairing of your optimization strategy with your creative strategy. So that was number one. And then we've just slowly been going through doing it campaigns. We feel pretty confident, directionally, that Northby metrics correlate with incrementality. So like percent new getting better on a similar one day click row S is probably a very good thing. And so we've just been comfortable doing it that way. And I'm asking my team to be slightly cautious because of this whole VO mistake where we ran again last year, around this time we ran value optimization CLS. It looked great. And then we just scaled up a significant portion of our account on that. And I think that was a, it was the right thing to do short term, but it was a wrong thing to do long term. I just want to make, I want to be careful of that because I don't want to be like, all right, cool, this worked and this one, I say an environment, let's just do it everywhere. So if we get to a larger portion of our account, like we need to have some type of check and balance, maybe it's just another CLS, maybe it's a house account-wide, one to two week test to be like, hey, now that we have 70% of our account on IA, like are we still happy with that? 'Cause maybe the answer is we want 30%, or 40%, so that's how we'll think about it. - Yeah, and that's just so tricky is because, you'll literally, like, you just physically can't get it right. Like you'll always be under or over invested in IA, and like, you know, and that's it. We struggle with that all the time. And I actually love that approach because we're probably guilty of, we either do house tests or we're not running tests, and we're just like observing the differences. So like we had examples of that in March, where it's like, okay, yeah, we're trying to incremental attribution over here, we're trying to cut some conversions over here, and we didn't take like a deliberate enough approach to like, hey, we don't have a house test, we can't make this like a multi-week geo study, but we can put in a little bit more time and effort, run the conversion lift study, and like try to get some more directional redo than the platform. I think that's the perfect example of how to roll out some of these like more nuance changes within, you know, within a given channel. - Yeah, I used to be like anti-CLS, like, oh, how's it gonna be? I'm coming around to it more, and just for speed, just for, you know, testing faster, and then directionally, like you can get, there's actually probably some things where it's better. You get a little bit more precision on something. So I'm a fan, and I think while it's really important at our scale to test non-purchase optimized things, which we'll talk about in a little bit, improving your reach on purchase optimized things, I think has a lot of merit, and so that's why I'm very bullish about this. - Cody, we saw some more data as you, like CPM half of what it was in our other purchase optimized campaigns, but well, I'm click rate was actually more than, like even lower, so our cost per outbound was actually more expensive on the incremental attribution optimized than it was on our other purchase conversion stuff. - So I just, I think like on the new scaling note too, I mean, that makes sense, right? Like, especially with all of these new optimization, like anything that's net new, chances are that there's a much lower ceiling on the amount of customers that medic can go and acquire profitably early on in that new, that new ad tech product, then like something that's been around forever, lowest cost or whatever. So I think like that's also something to be aware of. Like if you launch one of these new optimization settings, like you probably want to be a little bit less aggressive in scaling up, just knowing that it's a new ad tech product and like the overall pool of people that you're going to go and target with that is probably lower than like, some of these other ad tech product optimization settings that have been around for a really long time. - Okay, on that point, this is a really nerdy in the weeds sort of deal. It met a recently redefined seven day click. So they moved, it used to be seven day click and then they'd include people engaging with the ads. And then they moved it to seven day click. It's really only like link clicks and they moved that level of engagement to seven day click one day engaged. You're used to familiar with this and do you know where you guys began or like what attribution setting you ended up using? - I have no clue. I need to go talk to our media buyer. - We prior tests were testing, we added views and we weren't sure about views. And we were going to test like a campaign with views and I was like, well, it's kind of a move point if we move to IA, you know, there is no seven day or a few optimization. So like that's why I'm a little happy here. - So and maybe that's a component. The point that I'm going to make is we actually saw CPMs increase quite a bit at the beginning of the month. And like one of my thoughts was, and we made a bunch of changes and things have gotten better. So I can't exactly attribute it to this but we moved from our like more traditional purchase optimized campaigns that we're using seven day click. We just moved to seven day click one day engaged because if meta redefines seven day click and all of a sudden advertisers are bidding on a smaller pool of users because they're no longer including the engaged. It has the effect that you just laid out, Connor, where it's like, yeah, all of a sudden, we're just, it's going to price is will increase. Everybody will start bidding more for fewer people. So we just ended up moving to include engaged and like we've at least seen CPMs normalize somewhat. - Yep, yep, that makes sense. - And what's so funny about that is it's not even like, we're talking about reaching new people and reaching people more cost effectively to like drive the results we're looking for. We're just talking about like arbitraging the auction system, right? Like it's not even like there's nothing even like fundamentally better or even anything that will sustain over time. We just think, hey, there's a couple of week period, like we're at an advantage or a disadvantage by moving to IA or moving to seven day click one and one day engaged or whatever else. - One of the like the biggest skills I feel like right now for like a, you know, boots on the ground, like growth team is like operationalizing your incrementality factors. Like you guys talked about it with, you know, your view content campaigns or you know, we talked about it with some macro partnership ads. It's like trying to just get that, that triangulation of like, okay, here's over a two-week test what I think the incrementality is or here's my incrementality factor for this channel, but like here's how I actually make decisions on it 'cause it's so different. The reason I even thinking of it now is like, as Connor is talking about IA, it's like theoretically, you might have, if we're reaching newer audiences, colder or whatever, like you might actually have a stronger incrementality factor. And if you just have a blanket, of incrementally factor of 1.2x, right? And you believe, you know, Meta is more incremental than the platform shows. Well, now if they're changing how they report clicks, if you're doing IA, like that changes. And I think what I've learned from these is like, A, it's a very hard thing to pin down 'cause it's changing so often. And it's something like we talk about weekly, we're still talking about, you know, partnership ads and just ran a test on that to understand how we need to make decisions based on what we believe is driving, you know, the best incremental return in our account. But it changes so often. Totally. 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So we have a few again, our hypothesis outside of moving reach and improving CPMR and purchase optimized stuff is like, we think at our size and goals, A, we think we'll have better incremental returns over medium term by having some non-purchase objective. You guys have talked about it on a recent podcast of a lot of us do like view content. We do quiz completion, but also maybe there's value of having some upper funnel. And I would define that by video views, reach awareness. And then the other thing that we've talked about is like, I want to devote some money to reach and to incrementally lifting awareness and consideration for the business. And I think that's important. So that's like a big part of what we're trying to do right now. And we're trying to tie that to like launches, campaigns, things like that, rather than evergreen in the moment. Right. And so one of the tests we're running right now is Reels Training Ads. We're doing like a probably a five or six week house test where we're doing Reels Training Ads and essentially we'll be served in kind of top trending Reels in the space. - Yeah. So I think if I understand that ad placement correctly, meta is identifying the most popular pieces of short form content in given categories. Like I think we're looking into it for later this year. Like I think we'll be able to target like automotive and things like that. So they'll take the most trending content. And as people watch that, your ad is the next one. - Yeah, I believe. - It's cool. I don't, I'm so split on these. I think you're totally right that at Jones Road size, like you guys should be exploring stuff like this. It just reminds me a lot of like, you know, the YouTube Mass Head ads or like TikTok used to have the one placement where like everybody who opened the app would get like the ad at the beginning or something. I remember Mary Ruth Organics doing that. And that's just such a, it's just such like a brute force approach to awareness. Like I'm not, I don't know. We haven't, we haven't, we definitely haven't committed to it. I'm, I'd love to see more data from what you guys see. - The thing is it's all trackable. And that's what I tell our meta reps all the time. Like don't pitch me anything that I can't run a test on. Like like, you know how I look at the business? You know what my goals are? Like if you think that this is gonna have an criminal lift, like, and you tell a good story, like, I'll test it, you know. And so obviously we're running a holdout on it. We're seeing a lift so far. I don't know if you guys, this is probably a bad thing, but House has this new beta where you can get like daily readouts on your incrementality. Do you guys have that in your account? - Yeah, I was gonna talk about that a little bit on this topic. - It's dangerous. It's like in telegems. - Yeah. - You're refreshing your CRO tests like every three hours. Now you can do that in house. Yeah. - I mean, for us, that's actually been a huge, because like we are testing the, we're testing a bunch more upper funnel campaigns right now. And that it's actually been amazing for us, because we run these tests for such a long time. Like we've been running this upper funnel test. It's a three-cell test. We're testing two new objectives. We've been running it for like, I don't know, two months at least. And we're about to end it and then go into our observation period because we've launched our Mother's Day sales. So like we're kind of sitting in a black box for a long time. Like, oh, I hope this like this test that took, you know, our entire holdout testing slot for two, three months, like turns out well. But now being, I think they call it like cumulative. So you can see it like on a daily basis. And now I'm like super bullish, because it looks really good. It's like really close to baseline and we're pre observation window. So it's just giving me more confidence too. And I'm hoping what it will even let us do is end some of these tests earlier and be like, all right, like this is almost at like baseline with purchase conversion and we haven't even hit our sale period yet. So like, can I just make the assumption that this test is gonna net out to be, you know, incremental and more profitable than the baseline we're comparing it to and just run more test quicker. I think it's a really cool. It's really nice for brands like us who are like, we're not running it. Like, we're never running a two week test or three week test because it just won't pick up all the conversions like we need a longer cycle. So it's been pretty cool for that. Our view optimized stuff is, our video views rather is looking really nice right now. So I'm excited to see how it trends as we get into the mother's day sale. I think it's in a shoot way up above that purchase conversion baseline. - Yeah, do you see, 'cause so 100% great. It can also help you cut things. Again, you shouldn't do it too early. - Yeah. - But like, we have a test right now that's running that doesn't look good and we're probably gonna cut it early 'cause like, there's just no statistical probability that we'll hit our KPIs because it's so poor. So like, that saves money, you know, for us to have it keep it live. The other cool thing is you can see now these two lines, I guess it's the discreet, which shows like the day by day. You can see how they track over time. And I don't know, have you seen that those separate over time? Like right now, for example, real trending ads, let's say we need a $100 cost per incremental, well we're at $188 cost per incremental, but we're four days into it. I actually think that's probably really good. Like, that is my guess. And so hopefully we see more separation in those lines. I'm happy to report back on it. Have you guys noticed that in any of your campaigns, especially anything awareness-based to get more separation and more lift over time? - This is the first one we're running that we have this new feature in there. So now right now on the discreet, they're like very close. It'll be interesting to see how they separate once we get into the sale period. But like, the cumulative is where I'm getting a lot of, a lot of interesting value 'cause like the cumulative, like video view, like reaches down, video views is higher than reach, closer to baseline. Now we're gonna go into this post-treatment window and see how they change. So I'll follow up and let you know how the graphs are diverging once we get into this post-treatment window. - Yeah, especially for your guys, consideration window. Like we haven't necessarily seen it, but we're running more reach stuff now. Essentially everything we're trying to do, I'm trying to measure it three ways. And what I'm trying to do is put all the pieces together to drive the, you know, our media to where I think supports our business goals overall, which is like, obviously profitable performance, but really with the bias for future growth and reach. And what I mean by that is whenever we can on these things, yes, we're testing house with a, you know, bottom funnel incrementality. So our IROAS, new customer, you know, that they also now have GA for metrics. And as of yesterday, we're starting to get it that backfill down our campaigns. So like the first one it's applied on is a demand gen test we just ran. And so now I know that it cost us $2.50 for a lifted GA for a session. And in current, which is like cool. Now how does that compare to our other ones? I don't yet know, but I will know soon, but like that sounds pretty good. Because if I'm looking at a meta-cost per incremental of a hundred bucks and a YouTube, but demand gen is lifting, you know, sessions at $2.50 and meta is doing at four bucks, like, there's probably a better overall return over a longer period of time from demand gen. You know, that's kind of how I'm thinking about it. And so we'll have those. And then whenever possible, we're also running like a brand and consideration lift on these tactics inside platform. And so hopefully just put it like, I guess I'm just trying to put like the full funnel together of these approaches. And then we can make a decision. Because I can't just allocate money just to reach campaigns if it's lifting breach. I'm like, I don't really know how to justify that on my PNL yet, or I can only allocate so much. Maybe I can only spend, you know, 1% of my media mix unreached. But if I can find that I get direct response, maybe I'm not quite hitting my numbers in a two week period. Like, let's say reals trending at stays the same. And I'm at a $160 cost per incremental. Like, there still is a lift. Over time, if theoretically reach is a upper funnel tactic that should take six months to materialize, like that's actually probably very good. I believe, but I think I need rather than just a hunch, I need the other data sources together to kind of paint that fuller picture, if that makes sense. - Yeah. So you're Cody, what you're saying is, you're more comfortable. Like when you're stacking these different measurement methodologies on top, one another, You're comfortable getting like 60% of the information and of going out on a limb and saying, okay, like theoretically this tactic is meant to play out over the course of six months, nine months, 12 months. I'm only measuring it over the course of two months, but because it looks like it does across these three measurement methodologies, over the course of three months, you're confident in saying, okay, I don't have this hard data, but I am confident it's going to net out how I want it to over the course of, you know, double the time or triple or quadruple the time. Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, it would be really nice to run a six month test, but it's just hard to devote a slot to that. Yeah. But I think because we can get the other data where I wouldn't be as confident as to be like, okay, this is a reach test. It looked, it was a $200 cost per incremental, but it's reach. I'm just going to, you know, I can't hold it to the same standard like theoretically, yes, you can't hold it to the same standard as a different goal, but I think you need some other data points that help to tell that story or validate it. Yeah. Yeah. It might not be realistic to always run a six month test, but if I can run a four to six week test and I have the bottom funnel incrementality that's okay, plus the mid funnel incrementality and upper funnel incrementality of reach theoretically over time that should work. And there's some data points that supports that story. Yeah, I love this. So like one of the things it reminds me of and I've mentioned it before in the past is how, you know, people can think about your deployed ad spend as like almost something that you can hold on your balance sheet. I love the concept of this where it's like you were just in a better position if you've spent dollars in the past and that and we don't have, we don't really have a way of like valuing that in any way. That's why like, you know, all birds just got sold again and they're like pivoting the AI and do all sorts of weird stuff, but the all birds brand is worth something because of the dollars that they've spent because of the the awareness that they have, like it's worth more than just some random, you know, eco-friendly shoe that you just created today. And I feel like what you're saying, Cody is, hey, let's look at incremental sessions, incremental ad to cards. So it's okay, incremental brand recalls. And almost in a way, you could be assigning value to those and you're like, hey, if at the bottom of funnel, these are driving the same incremental return on ad spend. I'm generating revenue that that shows up in my PNL based on the ad spend that I deployed in this period. But hey, you know, I'm actually driving brand recalls way more effectively with this other tactic. Like your understanding that has value, you want to be building that out over time and that's like, it goes back to the thing of like it being on the balance sheet in some way. I don't hear people talk about that much. I think that's extremely cool. I appreciate it. Yeah, that's what we're kind of, I just think I've been to short-term focus in the past and I think that I think that's hurt us. But as a bootstrap company, I can't just light money on fire just to reach for the sake of it, you know. So we have those going. We're testing this combined awareness and sales campaign. That's another one in meta that I actually think we talked about on the, when we did the live pod at meta summit last year. So that's a fun one slow start. But I think that'll be cool. It kind of just like gives liquidity between sales and awareness and theoretically the awareness in like, there's some modeling that like the intent is somebody that will be better in market. So that's a cool one. YouTube reached as well. And so that'll be saying that'll be a house test. But we're also going to layer on, you know, in platform metrics, very excited to see GA, GA on that one, and then add a home as well. We're testing a bunch out of home. And I've kind of told my team, I'm like, I'm not really interested in in dabbling. I'm like, we've just dabbled with add a home. We do, you know, 50k here, whatever it is. I'm like, I want to know, and I'd rather spend 200, 300 grand and know if it's working and then go bigger versus just dabbling. So we have like a 100k test for this month house test plus we're doing. You can do like a brand recall, brand, you know, lift with like a out of home vendor. It's a little wishy-wash. I don't know if I totally trust everything, but I think directly you can give you some stuff. And then we're going bigger for a launch that we have next month, what kind of like double or triple that budget. And again, house test GA for metrics in there as well. So hopefully we'll get some good answers soon. Because like, for example, we did a house test on add a home a year ago and like four week tests, I think it was called a.7 row S four week test. Probably really great for add a home. Like, theoretically to the point we're having, that's really great. I think now that I'll get some data on some of the rest of the funnel, it'll help to understand. It was the only test we've ever ran where 100% of the incremental revenue was new customers. And you guys know how hard we struggle with that. Marketing operators, I want to challenge how you think about post purchase. If you zoom out, post purchase isn't a tactic. It's a system. It's your cart, your checkout logic, your one-click upsells, how you increase AOV revenue procession, profit procession. It's your confirmation pages. All of that system together, the entire flow determines how much incremental revenue that you can make for order. That's why rocked aftersell isn't just an upsell tool. 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Operators, listeners can activate rock thanks and get the full acrocel suite for a year or grab an extended 60 day trial to test post purchase performance. Go to aftersell.com/operators, build assistments and let it compound. Yeah, totally. On your out of home? Yeah. That's just how it's doing like a period over period analysis, right? Like they're just come or I guess not period over period. They're just comparing just manually like the the uptick in those markets. You you expose out of home and then like are they just like what's the comparison that is it just like everywhere else? Is that how they're looking at it? And then like kind of putting it on the same level or like how are they doing that analysis? I believe I'll probably butcher it. They're probably gonna you know say that this is way wrong, but it's it's like a fixed geo test because normally you know you say your goal and then house will give you the you know your your treatment regions. This is different because like we set the region based on where we want to do it just as a business, but then they kind of use that and then they build a model comparing comparable cities to you know to compare it against. So they cut it is a geo test. It's just like the method I'll use a little bit different. I don't know the specifics. Honestly, I just trust them on it because they're a million times smarter than than I am, but yeah, that's essentially how they do it. Yeah, we're doing we're doing a fairly big a six-figure activation for Mother's Day in a couple of cities that we are lower indexed on sales on, but based on some of the tech that our out-of-home vendor has, they think we have a high concentration of prospect of customers. So that's how we're deciding to go and activate in these cities. So I'll I'm gonna hit a house because it's like a six-week you know six-figure out-of-home campaign. I'll see I'll work back and see if it drove any lift, but Cody, I wanted to hit on the the YouTube reach stuff because we've been going deep down this rabbit hole the last like two months after finding some of the stuff in MetaWork really well. The non-purchase conversion campaigns and I've been super happy with the YouTube reach and like the all the non-purchase conversion stuff in YouTube. Like we're getting like insane reads in our MTA and in pression relative to our purchase conversion campaigns and we have really good incrementality factor like anchor points from some of the holdouts that we've ran. And I mean YouTube media as you guys both know is already insanely undervalued like we see I don't know a fourth or a third of the CPM and in YouTube convert demand-gen campaigns compared to Meta purchase conversion campaigns. The the reach and like view the non-purchase stuff in YouTube is like dirt-cheap CPMs. It's it's unbelievable and the the new Viserade is like insanely high. It's it's been really cool to see some of the stuff we're scaling it. Were you saying the MTA also look good on it? The MTA I mean the I like looking at like clicks and modeled views also looks really really good relative to our demand-gen stuff. And then didn't you also say it drives like 7X Amazon to DTC lift on the on the episode? Not 7. CTV is CTV is much more lopsided on on Amazon lift than I mean YouTube still is more Amazon than it is.com I think the last one we ran was like 2-to-1 or 1.5-to-1 Amazon orders to DTC revenue or our DTC orders. Yeah I'm I'm bullish on it. I mean yeah I mean even amongst conversion campaigns like you know we've talked about YouTube acts a little bit more upper funnel like higher percent new much much stronger income mentality factor because you're showing it on TVs and you know and and whatever but like the frequency I'm not the frequency but I guess you still have to hit somebody multiple times even on a demand-gen you know YouTube ad to get them to convert and so it's like well why why pay such a high CPM on those if you're gonna need multiple touch points like go up funnel with some of your budget you know to more cost effectively reach them more and so it should be a better overall you know outcome. So we'll see I'm I'm very bullish on it again. getting this GA4 metrics into into house. I'm the most excited about so that'll be interesting but yeah I've heard that YouTube video view stuff can crush can crush crush for retail as well. It's like one of the stronger performers so definitely super bullish on it probably more bullish on YouTube reach than I am on meta reach. We're doing view right now we're doing reach and our reach is actually outperforming our view which is interesting. So the more upper funnel optimized event actually beating out the view optimized right now in the in the prospecting it's a sizable chunk and like we're going to keep spending up as long as the efficiency and the net new visorade and the cpm are looking really good. Have either you guys ran like view content on YouTube with the income mentality test I feel like that could crush I almost want to run like a quiz completion custom event but I feel like that could do really well. Not with a holdout we're just running where you are running it but now with holdout. Yeah or what was popular for a long time is like you'd run action sets so like we would just include added cards in the in the conversion that we were optimizing for just so you could feedback that much more signal. Yeah I feel like that could do well because it's like I don't want to say you're fighting the platform but if you like if we're trying to really reach new audiences and good high quality audiences profitable audiences but like reach them there is like I wonder if that's the way to place in these channels even like TikTok like I think TikTok there is a strong income mentality factor compared to what you see it's just like a different behavior and it's like maybe like we should be running you know quiz complete view content you know like signal engineering as like our main strategy on TikTok it's like a hypothesis I have and might like work with the platform more than kind of trying to fight it totally or I think I would not be at all surprised if it's like a much larger percentage of everybody's budgets maybe like if you're spending over X amount or something then I wouldn't I wouldn't be at all-surprise if 30 40% of your budget shouldn't be going to not necessarily reach campaigns but like highly constructed sort of thoughtfully designed campaigns that are optimizing for a certain event the point a couple of points that I was going to make one YouTube views makes a ton of sense partially because so many views are recurring on TVs now or as if people are just not they're just not taking action from there you know from their smart TV at home so like if you want to tap into that inventory like moving up funnel makes sense YouTube's always been one of those things it has been kind of at a disadvantage in Google's attribution system so I said this about Snapchat a long time ago too where it's like I think you're almost better off optimize for non-purchase events on platforms who don't really know who's purchasing if if if Google ads is just losing a lot of attribution to search and shopping then like it gives you that much more reason to loosen the reins on you know you're okay yeah don't pay a premium for for media that is not really smart then then you then you have to go cheaper if it's not going to convert as well totally um the other thing I was going to say just like the whole list that we're hitting here is really interesting because some of it's like it feels like we're fighting the platforms or like hacking them a little bit to like align with what we're trying to do and then I love the stuff that meta is coming out with whether it's the um the cast campaigns incremental attribution like these are like these are true purpose built features that are like trying to align the platforms with what we're trying to do and I just think they're like far and away doing it better than anybody else oh definitely they're very very I'm excited for the performance summit because I imagine they'll announce some of them like more familiar focused on it but it's very clear that meta is very focused on this and you know making a lot of big changes and um realizes that over issues but also like there's a lot of really cool stuff and yeah they're they're the fact that not only they have incremental attribution but that it's actually working so well is like a huge unlock um and then and then one thing on this the creative I haven't been talking about the creative as well but like this is also not our typical creative like we just did a giant shoot with a new partner for you know upcoming launch we've done a lot of like more like brand-forward creative like that's that's a huge lever and and tying the creative to these different channels like YouTube views is like probably your TV spots you know those are not your 90-second DR mashups probably um and so just tying that together and kind of trying to build that storytelling muscle get better at that and um build upper funnel creatives are are very different than you know what what our team is normally used to so if you're I want to ask you guys a question about like operations here Connor when when I was in LA and you came to the office we talked about a brand where you're like hey like I was inside this ad account and it looked like they had like listen to a bunch of our episodes and kind of like drop to all these things into the ad account all at once and you're like it was just a mess like it was so hard to see what was going well what wasn't going well in reality all of it probably wasn't going well because they're trying to do too much all at once and if there's one thing not to do it's it's don't just go into your ad account tomorrow and set up an incremental attribution campaign and a combined awareness and sales campaign and a view content in a reach and all these things it's like you got to have some some roadmap here like these things should happen step-wise so you can really isolate the variables and be thoughtful about how you're setting up these tests so yeah Connor maybe I'll go to you since we were talking about this last week but what is your advice on just like creating a testing roadmap where it's like hey how do we like we have this laundry list of like let's call it like objectives or purchase optimization settings that we want to test in meta like how do we do it in a thoughtful way to like increase our surface area of of finding some wins with all these yeah so I think we hit I think we hit a couple of them earlier like my my priority list would be if we're testing new tactics you know you go geolift test you conversion lift study geolift test is going to allow you to it's more holistic you get Amazon in there if you're at risk of any sort of like potential attribution break like we've found some really interesting wins in our wedding band business targeting women instead of men and it really appears like there's some sort of attribution break there that meta is not getting credit for when we're just looking in platform so geolift the number one preferred way for us to roll out tactics you get limited slots so then if you can be doing more conversion lift studies that should give you directional reads and then we do this all the time so I'm really not super opposed to it but it really can get confusing over time but like launching new tactics whether it's incremental attribution or whatever else and then just creating some sort of comparison it's not you're not even testing it at that point let's talk about this with my team too I'm like we're just we're trying something like you can't tell me this is a test there's no experiment we're gonna do something new and then if you're really deliberate and thoughtful about comparing it to the previous period or the other campaigns and we can use these like sort of supplementary metrics like percent new visits and things like that like you can I believe that we can be introducing new tactics without like a tried and true experiment but that would be the list of priorities and then that would be like identifying whether some of these things might work and then as you test them as a percentage of mix then you get back to the importance of like conversion lift studies or or house because I think it's really difficult to without a true experiment go from 0% of your account being incremental attribution to a 100% of your account being incremental attribution so as you roll it out I think testing also becomes more important yeah and I think I think like the approach of hey we're just gonna try this and we're gonna compare it to other things in the account that's a lot more valid after you've done some more of like the controlled experiments like if you know meta is really your core channel like if you're a 10 million dollar brand and 80% of your spends on meta and like you haven't even ran a geo hold up but you know that's just driving the most of your revenue like yeah you can go and roll out incremental attribution and just compare all the all the metrics to your whatever top spending you know lowest cost campaign and like you should get a a pretty good readout and like understanding of what that's doing and that's what we're doing with some of our YouTube non purchase conversion stuff it's what we're doing with some of the destination testing we're doing in YouTube and like the only reason that works is because we've ran a bunch of holdouts on YouTube and we validated the incrementality of the demand giant campaign so now that like intro channel comparison is really strong and and I'm confident making decisions where like I wouldn't do that with a tick-tock where we haven't ran like a long tailed lift test in a long time like I just wouldn't be that comfortable doing it that way and then it's evolving like we've probably we've probably changed our roadmap six times than last month just as we're trying to coordinate all these different strategies and tactics and so it's evolving and you just have to prioritize and be like all right we have a certain number of slots what do we need to do but we've got you know different strategies and different channels that are coming together and we work with our media buyers or reps i need one and you know oh if we ended this one the state here's what we could put in been trying to maximize the slots because you have so much you want to test but you only get a certain number of slots so it's always evolving you just need somebody your team who kind of owns it and as sliding things around as things change and prioritizing and then yeah it's determining what has to be a proper test what can just be a little experiment and getting some data on and some of it is like hey we're comfortable spending this much per day and then here are some metrics we know north beam whatever it is when we get to this level of spend that that's where I think we should plan another another test but yeah otherwise it's not always worth it if you're spending a few grand a day on a channel and you want to spend another thousand like that's not your highest impact for for a business you know if you're spending a bunch so you just have to prioritize it all right cool let's wrap that let's wrap there on the new reach stuff that was that was really great I want to ask you Cody about this creator partnership do we want to go there next or is there a different a different part of the i in a very self-serving way we'd love to talk about this a little bit yeah okay I would like to take this opportunity to mine Cody for information for for each purposes yeah so Cody you you tweet We did a couple of days ago or this week or whatever about your Jones road beauty, have their biggest creator partnership to date, a ton of what I thought was really cool about your tweet is it shifted away from what you usually talk about, which is like incrementality, performance marketing, data, performance metrics. And it really hit on all of the fun, experiential out of home stuff they are doing. So like you had an IRL event, you did an agile truck that really emphasized and highlighted the partnership. So I wanted to ask you about that, like who was it, like why'd you do it and like maybe summarize the experiential bit. But I want to also ask you about the part that you didn't tweet about, which is the performance marketing oriented part of this deal. Because I'm sure there's, knowing you, I'm sure there's a ton of like, hey, we're definitely going to calculate an ROI on this part of the deal. And then like your tweet was more focused on the experiential brand forward stuff that like you probably won't calculate as much of an ROI on. So could you just like, yeah, clue us in on what this partnership was and hit on some of those points. We talk about incrementality a lot, but how do you actually operationalize it to make your business better? That is one thing that I've been really leaning in with my team recently and how says played a tremendous role. We use it for all of our experiments, all of our geolift testing, but we now use it for our MMM as well. I've been a design partner. I've been one of the early design partners on how to see MMM. See stands for causal. So it's one of the only MMMs. If not the only MMM that I've seen that's actually using your causal experiments to build the model. And so that allows me to just trust the data so much more. So it's not a black box, but actually informs our roadmap and has been so crucial for allowing us to operationalize around incrementality. The house team is world class. I can't speak highly enough about them. They've also built a really amazing community with some of the best D to C growth operators out there. They have a few exciting events coming up soon that they call the house growth lab. One is in LA and May 19th and the other is in New York on May 21st. I highly recommend checking it out if you're in the area. If you want to check it out, learn a little bit more about CMM. I'm going to house.io/operators to start making better data driven decisions today. Yeah, definitely. So a few of our big rocks for the year, creator obsession is one. It's just, it's a creator economy and we've been, you know, we've been two traditional as a brand and you know, creator economy is everything. If you look at consumer trends and everything, it's extremely important. So we have wanted to do partnerships and we don't really want to do like a traditional celeb one. We want to do things that are super authentic. I mean, it's got to be that, right? It has, so we want to work with creators for multiple reasons and hopefully don't have to explain why, but that's who people want to hear from. That's who's getting attention. It's got to be somebody who's really authentic and has a really good fit. And I think even like we've struggled to really figure out some of them and we've talked to a bunch of people and it's just, you know, things have fallen apart because it's just like, you don't want to be like, oh, here's a nut like there's so many partnerships. Like, oh, here's another one. So we still want to do like a more and giant ones, but it's, you got to find the right fit. So we want to do partnerships. We want to do more IRL, just bullish on it. Obviously as you know, meta gets harder or whatever, like people are on their phones all day, like people are craving connection. We have our stores. We're doubling our store footprint. So that's a big component, sampling as well, you know, we just got our first samples. This is really our first sampling event, but super bullish on that as an overall strategy for us. And then just yeah, overall brand building, just super, you know, but I guess if you had to make that objective, that's improving your awareness and your consideration, what is how I would say that. So that's kind of the why behind it. And so trying to create this whole, the holistic 360 campaign, the way it started. So the creator's name, she's wonderful. She's a perfect partner for us. Really authentic fit. Her name is Emily DiDinato. So she's a model. It's been a cover model. It's been, I think she was, you know, it's supposed to sort of been Vogue model, like all of the magazines. And so she's somebody even like we wanted to work with as, you know, a model. And we start working with her as a creator. She's also a creator. She's a mom. She's an entrepreneur herself. So has like, you know, the makeup look has just like we just have a lot of similar activities and, you know, she's a great fit for us. She was our top white listing creator for most of last year. We started working her about a year ago. And so it wasn't like we just like dove into this partnership. It was kind of just starting more natural. And you know, just had a really good relationship with her and her team and, you know, performed very well. Bobby has actually done her makeup in the past. And so, you know, they had a small relationship. And she actually approached us about it. We had wanted to do things, but, you know, she's also known for blush. Like, you know, just people know that about her. And she just loves blush. And I was like, Hey, we're, we're, it's funny. You say that. Like we're redoing this blush. And you think it would be great. What I, what I thought was really important is, you know, those campaigns where it's like, Oh, this person is our new chief creative officer or whatever it is. But it's like just like a PR stunt. Like a lot of celebrities now will be like, giving us a new, like, I didn't want it to be that. I wanted it to be because I think people are very skeptical. And so I think the story matters so much. And so, like, she was actually very involved in product development and obviously anything we were doing. It's like, let's get content of this. Like, because we're thinking about even as we're developing these products with her, how are we going to, you know, bring it to life and tell the story. So we made a shoot, you know, she was a chief blush officer. It was, you know, the title he gave just cute little title, did it like a director's chair. She had her own shade in her name, you know, pretty big, you know, holistic thing. So she was really the main shot model. We shot all shades on her, but we gave her one in her name and her signature is on the pack. She was involved in the, you know, development, all of it. She was the main model. So, you know, you go to our website right now. She's on that. Any, you know, print, any retail, you know, print that we're doing. She's all on it. She's on her out of home. She's on, you know, the agile trucks. It's, I also think, creator stuff is great a way to get into people's worlds, right? Crucks will do this if they want to get a certain demo. They'll do like a partnership with a show and like, I mean, Connor Ridge, you guys have talked about a lot. Like it's a great way to get into it. It's like, it kind of gives you permission to play somewhere where maybe as a brand, you, there's like an overlap that you wouldn't be able to play in that space by yourself. And so, you know, there's a lot of people now that are, she gives, you know, we're able to see to her, her, her community. And there's a lot of people now that are getting into our world. And, you know, because of that and whether they're larger creators, whether it's followers of her. So that's a component part of the deal is in person events, you know, we didn't know at the time, but it's amazing, you know, that she was going to be eight months pregnant doing the events. But so we, you know, did these events at the stores and kind of combined all of them. So that's kind of like the whole, you know, 360. It's been very successful. You know, a little bit too successful. We're going to have some stock issues but working through them now, but it's been really successful and I think gives us a confidence to do more. So one of my questions is one fantastic. It's also super cool. I mean, we've been talking about this for a couple months now. I feel like the 360 campaigns are just like in Vogue, you know, between like the Marty Supreme stuff or the ramp stuff. It's like people are really trying to get creative about how to activate across channels. I think to your point, consumers are super interested in seeing real world experiences from brands, especially as just like everything becomes digital in AI. It's like the more you can stand out there, the better. I'm curious if or how you guys leverage some of the offline stuff, the out of home, the trucks, in-person events, onto digital channels. Like is there, did that happen at launch or is it like, hey, we have this launch moment and then we have sort of a sequential rollout of all these IRL, you know, events happening that we're going to then tease out to our email list, post on social, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. So, we actually were supposed to have one event prior to launch and we canceled it because, she said months pregnant, we wanted to give her a break a little bit, you know. So I think we probably over committed a little bit. And so we're like, hey, we really want to prioritize like the bigger event. And so we did one like a week after we definitely wanted it the week of launch. But yeah, I love social proof at launch and building community like Road does the best job of it. Like if you look at their store, like they don't announce a new product that's coming out, if their community announces it, that's like really big and beautiful. So I just think the more social proof and creators, you can get talking about something prior to it is great. And just building that feeling, you want whether it's, you know, FOMO or connection or community. And so I love kicking off with that stuff even prior to it. If not doing it at launch, I think is really cool. I think it's something, I'll say four out of 10. I want to be seven out of 10, eight out of 10. I think, you know, we just hired a new social person, but like who who starts next week, like I think we can do a much better job of that. I think we did an okay job of it, but of doing it better strategically and then just the volume of it of like making it look really cool. So I think it's primarily social. I am like, but again, everything like we got a lot, we got street interviews, right? So we our team went around in street interviews. Those will get in the ad account if we think those are worthy of it. So I think everything is is a content fly. I think like, you know, Connor, you're in comfort right now. From what what I've heard is like the primary reason comfort does trucks is to get content. Like they do agile trucks and town told me like it's like it's like it's all flywheel. And that's what I was kind of getting at. Like do you, yeah, that flywheel is what I'm probably most interested in as well. It's like the digital, the validation you get on digital by having had the real world stuff. And that's how I was curious also like even testing out of home in a silo. I generate a positive, you know, increments, what's certainly he mentioned, but also it might lead to like your best ads or whatever, right? And then you're running them all over the country. You're billboard. Dallas could be driving sales in Jacksonville. Was there anything about the partnership that you're like, this really worked? And I wanna like expand on this idea. And are you willing to share it on a public podcast? - I mean, yeah, we wanna do more and we wanna do bigger ones. - Yeah. - So the trick is I think just, there are so many partnerships that brands do and we're trying to be really intentional about some of who actually loves the product, loves the brand. We love like, there's a really good story there. I just think it's gotta be like the story first. We've got the Bobby Formula One that we talked about that's coming up in a few weeks. And then I think as soon as we get a little data on that and this one sitting with the team and just being like, all right, what are we doing from here? Where do we go? It's just like anything we do trying to get traction. I mean, like what do we do? Same thing, like on Monday, it was a great event on Sunday on Saturday, but it was like, all right, let's do a quick post mortem, what went well, what can we improve? Some of the feedback was, could have done a better job, could have gotten more people to the event. It was good, but could have got more people there, could have made it look better on social. We handed out 400 samples, we should have handed out 4,000 samples. So I think with everything, it's just like, all right, cool, this was great, but we can always do better. But yes, I'm just trying to find traction signs of life. Right now we have one Rivian. My team thinks I'm crazy. I think we should have four of them, just for the country. And so as soon as we see some signs of success with this program, we're gonna get a few of them, I think. I love that you didn't, you minimize your risk. The first thing you started with was, she was our best white listing creator of all of last year. So you had a ton of confidence that this, more 360 activation was gonna work really well. And we've certainly switched up how we do our influencer deals to be more in line with that. We're historically two, three years ago, we'd be like, all right, let's go sign a 12 month deal with this creator, all these monthly deliverables. And now it's like, hey, let's go sign a three month deal. That's mainly paid media oriented. And if that works, then let's think about expansion into more of like a 360 style campaign. So I think that's like, that's, that's I think a really good takeaway is like you, these things are expensive. Like I'm sure you're paying her a lot of money and it's well worth it. But like you have the confidence it was gonna work and get a good ROI because you did all the white listing that you did last year and you had that data to lean on. And I think that's like a really good takeaway for the audience is like, start small with these creators. So you're not, so you're kind of like hedging your bets a little bit. - Yeah, you just, yeah, I mean, if in an ideal world you can, that would be the best. But sometimes you just have to go for it. You know, but I don't know. I feel like partnerships are a risk. I'm trying to, I'm trying to be a comfortable taking more risks. Again, being really thoughtful about it and making sure it's right fit and the story is there. But trying to be comfortable taking bigger bets that I think now that we've taken some, it's like, okay, cool. How do we kind of build on it and do next one? - Yeah, if you can start small, but I just think, you know, the story, what's the story? Always coming back to that and then making sure the story is there because that's what's kind of resonate or not resonate with people. - Oh, and then the last thing, so on performance, how we're activating on performance, we built some landers for it specifically. Tons of white listing from her. Obviously the top ads are, you know, via her, telling the similar story like, we're obviously trying to sell products, but we're still trying to weave in. So I, you know, in Clawed, built two new landers for this one is like, very similar like base template, but one of them called a performance LP, the other one a story page. And I would say like 50% of the pages is the same, but let's say the story page has, you know, a video embed section that has a hero video in it. It doesn't have a full buy box that you can click on. It has like a mini buy box that sends to the PDP. It has like just more content modules that like our reach traffic is running to. And then our performance page has the full buy box that you can buy on. It's got the review widget on it. Like it's just a little bit more DR. And so, but we still want to tell the story 'cause A, I think any partnership you have to answer that quickly. And then B, just for a, from a brand moment, we still think some of that is important for the campaign. Totally. Oh, and then one thing, just like, if you're working with creators and stuff, like the one thing is great, like there's people posting that have not posted about us in years or whatever, like it's such a great way to get into people's world. I'm sure you guys have seen this from the partnerships that you guys have done. Is, you know, you partner with creators and celebs and like you can use them as a, as a poll to kind of, you know, get into people's world and it's all about, then how do we capitalize from there? How do we build relationships with these people that are now getting into our world? Or are you saying this creator activation is rekindling like conversations that you've had with other creators and celebrities in the past? Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if they're just like starting to post about us, right, 'cause they post about us with the product that we sent to them. Oh, sure. I'm only as list. Totally. And so I think, but so now it's like, hey, how do we just, you know, rebuild that relationship or build a net new relationship? But same thing, like you guys probably have people that wanna, you know, support Marques and post about him that, you know, you know, maybe hadn't in the past and then hopefully you can build relationships with them. Totally. So we have, well, thanks for the run through on the activation code. Classic split. We did about 55 minutes deep, you know, media buying, reach tactics. And we squeezed in 12 minutes of a great 360 brand activation. Who says we don't have range? (laughing) Yeah. No protein content though. No protein content. We've been, we've been light on the protein content. (dramatic music)