How To Get As Explosive As Possible w/ Vertical Jump World Record Holder Isaiah Rivera & John Evans

I want to dunk for the first time. 18 to 20 years old. I'm six feet tall, 200 pounds. Mass is the enemy. So the first thing I'm going to say is you're not you're not fat, but in our world you're fat. You're fat! Isaiah was talking about throwing his body at the ground, muscles stretched the tendon. Walk me through what you might do in the weight room that could get close or even like that you might feel on the tendon. One of them was a 60 inch depth jumps. Oh, even higher. I don't think we've ever seen someone get better at an upright, quad dominant movement, whether it's squatting, or single leg, or on a hack squat. Anything we're just super upright and squatting. The belt squat actually probably like my favorite lift right now for that. They train five days a week, two weeks in. They start to complain that they're tired all the time and they're not getting the results that you said that they want. The first thing I would say is you have delusional expectations. I never told you your vertical would go up in three weeks. To me, anything under a 45 is not a good vertical. We're going to sit down with the world record holder in the vertical jump and his coach and we're going to start right now. Think about having a 35 inch vertical or a 40 inch vertical. We talked to Isaiah Rivera and his coach John Evans and Isaiah's got the world record in the vertical jump at 51 inches and we talked about everything that they do with their training, their sprint work, their speed work. What do they do with depth drops? What do they do with lifts? What do they do with slow eccentric with high speed movements? How do they use VBT? We go into absolutely everything based off of their programming and how they even recover because we all know if you're trying to train to be a big time jumper, it's a lot of collision work with the ground. This podcast is absolutely stock full of content. Get out your notebook and start taking notes. So yeah, my background, I started like studying track and field when I was 13, I just started wanting to dunk and then like at seventh grade I could touch rim, ended up being decent at high jump, jump to five foot. My or five to my when I was in seventh grade, in eighth grade I jumped to five, 10. So like as an eighth grader that's pretty good. And then yeah, so I was in early like I maturated really early. So and then I ended up really focusing on that. So I wanted to high jump, that's what I wanted to do. But genetically speaking, I'm definitely pretty exposed to around the 400, 800, 800. Probably, I just don't know these events. Well, actually we measured at six foot and a half yesterday. But a little heavier, my identical twin brother is actually like six, one and a half, six two. So I did a ton of strength training and I think because my spine compressed like quite a bit during that time, it and there's like a number of disc injuries, I ended up being a little bit shorter than him and he'd never has been under a barbell. So it's kind of an interesting case study because rarely do you get identical twins that have a longitudinal history of doing different things. So then I ended up working with, do you know Mike Young? Do you know who Mike Young is? The three he like did the biomechanics on Thoreau's actually were shot. I feel like I should know who Mike Young is. You probably read his book. That's what that's why I'm like trying to think if I'm looking at my. So I think is he wrote like a textbook and he did his dissertation at LSU with Boo, Shexinator. Okay. He was the coach with Boo for like, I mean, I think he was there for five years. So he did like 10 seasons with them between indoor outdoor. Okay. But he's like brilliant. One of the smartest people I ever met. So he coached me in my junior year and mentored me, moving forward. I was an altist for four months with Dan and Stu in 2016 and that's when like Andrei DeGrasse was there in Areas, Marit and then I was at the Olympic training site in northern Michigan for weightlifting for two years during grad school and then I interned with Mike for obviously all unpaid. For classic. Yep. Classic. Yes and see. I think that was, I think I interned with him for two summers. It at total tune in Saint Mount hours. I don't even know. I was there like every hour of the day working with, I worked with Pro-Wam the soccer when I was there, the semi-pro track group that he had. So like Jack Flood was in that group. I don't know if he is. Wait, wait, wait. Mike Young's in, he's in Winston Salem. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. I know. I know you're talking about. Yes. I don't know him, but I know who I know who he is just because I've had multis and I've seen him and then when you mentioned that and then Flood, I was like, oh, okay. Do you work with Jack? No. Jack Flood. No. Okay. No. So he, yeah, because I saw it like, multis is like my passion. Like I love the multi event. And then I was at Duke. I coached at Duke for the indoor season high jump. We ended up taking first and second at ACC's on the women's side. First, second, sixth, I think. So the year prior, they didn't score. And then the next year I came in and they took, they won ACC's, which was fun. And then it was COVID. So the season ended and then we started to like really turn on the after burners with jumping. And because I coach Isaiah, now I ended up being a dunk coach, but I was like you. I was like, I love track and field. And then I just fell into this niche because he was very notable. So I guess, I mean, well, that's a great background. My question for Isaiah would then be, and I almost feel like this should be like a bonus track at the end. It's like, what is Isaiah? What is your background as an athlete? Like what did you do? Let's say, how old are you right now? 28. So, so let's say it up until you're 22. What were you doing? Until I was. So I played every sport imaginable growing up. As a little kid, I was outside all day, every day. And then in middle school is, I mean, I started playing basketball when I was in fourth grade. So I always, I always liked it. And then around sixth grade, I started playing everything. Football, baseball, basketball, volleyball, wrestling. So I think there was another sport in there. Dabbled in track and field, like all the, all the different events in track and field. Did you say baseball? You said baseball. Yeah. Yeah. And I give each of those like an honest shot. Like it wasn't like, you know, I went and played in recess. Like it was like, signed up for a full season and tried it out. And then around probably eighth or ninth grade, it started becoming more towards the basketball side. And actually, even up until 10th grade, like my sophomore year, I was still playing other sports, but my junior year is when I went all in on basketball. And then at the same time, all in on dunking. But up until then, like, I just, I love sports in general and competing. I like beating people. Did you tell me about the dunking everyday thing? Did you mention that? Not yet. Not yet. Yeah. Dunking every day that started. I mean, technically I was jumping every day already and like, and basketball, trying to touch, you know, the net, like, during practice and stuff like that. But full, focused practice, dunking, lowering the hoop. And I'm just there two hours a day. That started when I was around 16 probably, maybe a little bit earlier. You think, I don't know what I want to see your guys take on this. You think volleyball helped you jump more or basketball? Oh, I don't think they mattered that much. My honest opinion. Yeah. Well, let's say for normal human beings. Oh, for like, not Isaiah. I think, I think, uh, volleyball. Yeah. Dunking, it depends how you're, how you're playing basketball. Like, so I grew up in Utah. Um, she's like, you know, the most stereotypical, like, not to bring racing, but how white people play fundamentals. Really good at shooting. Um, and not like, my coach is over there did not let me show, but at all. I was to, I joke about it all the time. Hot dog and, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Please to say to me, um, then I moved to Florida when I was 16. So it was, uh, near the end of my junior year. I remember going to a basketball court and outdoor basketball court. I had seen, and Utah, I had seen maybe one or two people dunk my whole life. Um, I went, I went, yeah, yeah. I went to the park. And this is around the time when I first started being able to dunk barely. I went to an outdoor court and out of the 20 guys that went in there, there were like eight or nine of them were dunking. And the game was off fast break dunk, fast break, dunk, and just like having fun throwing out of you to each other. Nobody really cared about fundamentals. It's just take them one on one. Um, which I love. I felt like I was in heaven. Like, like seeing that. So if you're playing basketball like that, you're getting a ton of jump training in. Yeah. A ton of it. Like it's every play you're just running up and trying to see how you can dunk it. But if you're playing, you know, you're just doing defensive drills all day, ball handling, shooting workouts, uh, that type of thing. Like you're not getting high quality max effort, max approach jumps, uh, very frequently, which I think I think plays a role, you know, I mentioned, you know, how white guys play, I don't think has anything through a race, I think it's just the culture of basketball. If you had those guys probably play like that, their entire childhood, like they'd be athletic as hell. - When you're writing a program for strength training or for explosiveness, there's a lot of different factors. And in this case, you might be thinking, how can I incorporate squats, sprint work, jumps, all of these different factors to increase your vertical jump. But if you click the first link in the description or the pin comment, you can head over our strength training app, which is peak strength. Inside of peak strength, you can click on training for a specific goal under explosiveness and you can get into increasing your vertical jump, based off of a specific program for vertical jump base programming. If you're an athlete, you can click on the specific sport that you want to train for. Again, it's a pin comment down below. It's the first link in the description. Get into peak strength and start cultivating your power. Now, let's get back to vertical jump training. - Yeah, it's almost like, okay, I mean, I'm just listening to you say this. I even think like just how the stereotype of a European basketball player is, they're way more skilled than an American basketball player. Maybe that's like the avoid race discussion, even though it probably shouldn't matter, is like you're saying, fast pace, dunking constantly versus very skilled, very ball handling oriented. - Yeah. And then the reason I think volleyball's better is because the sport is jumping. - Yeah. - The, I think a lot of volleyball players have horrible jump techniques. It's like a pet peeve of John and I 'cause half the guys we coach are volleyball, but good volleyball players, specifically, like they're getting a lot of high quality jump reps in. - Okay, I wanna ask my big banger question then, is some kid comes in, okay, let's say you're back in, I was gonna say the land of Mormons, maybe that should be edited out of this though. - Oh, leave that in. - You're in Utah. - You're in Utah, a lot of Mormon athletes. - Yeah, so you're in Utah and a kid comes in there like, so this is a question for both of you guys. I wanna dunk for the first time. I'm 18 to 20 years old. Let's say I'm six feet tall, 200 pounds, two years of strength training, I play basketball, I play volleyball, I've done track, I can touch rim, but I can't actually dunk yet. What's like a set up of lifting versus jumps, like a weekly split that you might put somebody on to really start to build out what they're doing, to get to that point and maybe what's that weekly split and then how long does it typically take? Like a normal guy that's relatively athletic, but not a freak. - Right, is that you want me to take this one? - Yeah. - So first, you gotta do like a brief needs analysis, and I'll usually just do this in my head. I can tell you right away that kid, he's lifting two years, he weighs 200 pounds, he's a big kid, right? He said six foot to six two. So, and you wanna jump. I mean, mass is the enemy. So the first thing I'm gonna say is you're not fat, but in our world, you're fat. You gotta lose weight. - Fat don't fly is the the LaFont triple jump Olympic chip. That's her quote, fat doesn't fly. - We say it all the time, Mike used to tell me about all the time, 2012, we used to say 2013, fat don't fly. And it doesn't. So we know mass-specific force matters. You need mass where it matters. You weigh 200 pounds and you're only touching rim and you're six foot and 16 when you've done track and you've done basketball. I would argue you're probably not a great athlete at that regard, right? I don't view myself as any specimen, but I was touching rim when I was 13 after, you know, with middle distance genetics, not good genetics for jumping. So, first thing I'd say is, okay, what are your weight room numbers? Okay, so give me a hypothetical. What is this kid squatting and cleaning? And, or maybe he's never done a clean. What's a squat? Astrograss, what do you think? Dane. - Wait, say there you go. - You're asking me hypothetical. - I'm not sure, what is your squat? - Let's say I'm busy writing all these things down and I'm like, yeah, that's okay. Wait, he just asked me a question. Okay, yeah. Squat, let's actually play the game where we go back squat is 275 for a triple astrograss. He doesn't like doing it 'cause he dies when he goes astrograss. 315, 90 degrees, knees cave in, does a good morning, but he can do 315 for five. Hates doing full cleans and can power clean more than they can full clean. Power cleans, 225 for a single. - Okay, so I firstly, I'd say it's rare that you're probably gonna get a kid that can't touch right with those statistics. So the first thing I'm gonna say is, your fat masses gotta be really high. If you're weak, you're really weak. - Wait, you're not really weak, 275. - We're weak, 200. - Yeah, so that's, yeah, you've gotta be fat. I mean, that's the only way I didn't see this happen 'cause you have to be fat. So the first thing I'm gonna say is, okay, you don't, your force generating capacities are not terrible in terms of RFD, right? You're cleaning 225 in a power clean. So you're not atrocious, but your fast RFD is really bad, like body weight loads, you've got a very apparent two things. One, you're probably velocity deficient. You don't generate force super fast, you generate kind of fast. And you're kinda strong, your eccentric capabilities are probably really bad. And you need to lose weight. So the focus for that kid, I guess, how driven is he? - Let's say that they tell you, this kid wants to train five days a week, and then you give him a program, case they train five days a week, and I'm just looking at my notes on my phone here. They train five days a week, two weeks in, they start to complain that they're tired all the time and they're not getting the results that you said that they want. What, what do you, I feel like I might be drawing your avatar possibly. - Yeah, probably, there's something. - I was filing 'cause this is like, what the complaint we get around that time. So the first thing I would say is you have delusional expectations. That's deluded. And you need to set your expectations to something more realistic. We tell people it takes months, the old adage of increased your vertical six inches in six weeks, like it used to just be a game. How ridiculous can you make the claim and how short of a timeframe can you get people? That's just not realistic. And we've done a good job of kind of squashing a lot of those unrealistic expectations, especially with more elite guys. So this kid, he's got some sort of a training age, probably moves like garbage. So we're gonna, I'd probably put them on, assuming he's healthy and doesn't have knee pain. There's two major setups that I really like. The standard high low approach that you've probably seen with Charlie Francis, you've probably seen with Boo and Dan and stuff like that. And coming from a track background, I really like that approach. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you're gonna be your high neural days. We're gonna do long conjugate sequence system. So you're gonna have multiple things you're working on. I don't know, is it ladden? He does a good job of explaining the presentation model. I think he actually works with some fighters sometimes. Yeah, yeah, I figured his name. But he's done a good job of like explaining the periodization models. But, you know, and if you've ripped Bompas book periodization, it does really a good job too of kind of going through different things. So there's a lot of different options. I think a lot of them can work, but generally I'm gonna move into the long conjugate sequence systems. So you work on everything at one time. Probably do a short to long approach. Don't have to, but that's where I'm gonna start people out because the faster you run, the more likely you are to pull a hamstring. So you don't wanna see that happen. I think springing is a really good stimulus. And we're gonna put them on three days of springing or probably two. So we probably sprint Monday, Wednesday, jump on Friday, jump once a week. And then we're gonna work on the movement quality. So how does your clean look? Are you sending me videos of your power clean or am I in person watching your power clean? And we're gonna fix that first. And we're gonna address that to the highest degree. I wanna see you lift like you're a world class weightlifter. I want you to have incredibly proficient technique. Coming from a weightlifting background, you know, that's for me pretty easy to coach. I've been around it for a while and I've done it since I was 15. And then we're gonna work on deep squatting. You're assuming he's a two foot jumper. So he's 200 pounds. It's probably not jumping off one. So that's the first thing's gonna be let's increase your work capacity. - How would you know that he's a two foot jumper? - 200 pounds, six two. I mean, if he's not, he should be. 'Cause he's fat and one foot is even more dependent on body weight than two foot. - You know what? - Two foot you can get away with being big. - You know what's funny is this is describing my little brother, man, man. - Oh yeah. - Yeah, we have your brother, this is perfect. - This is like exactly. - So I have a little brother, he just turned 16. Football player, he's a tight end. Now he's ballooned up now to like 230, but last summer he was probably around 200, 210. I'm like the exact numbers he just gave are his numbers and he's grabbing rim, not dunking yet. - So the biggest thing with a kid like that is he lacks something that the best of the best the best jumpers have and that's a very robust history. of jumping and we used to be a little bit less, you know, crazy on the early specificity, but it's very apparent that if you want to jump really high, early specificity is good for jumping and that's very contraindicated to, you know, a lot of what Elf-Tad research says, but it especially when you're looking at like crazy high performance, I think you need to do other sports for sure, but the more you can jump at a young age, the better. So he's got this massive deficit where he lacks interim muscular coordination, doesn't time things well, doesn't have good RFD, maybe he does in a power clean, but he probably's pretty slow, you know, he can't, has terrible jump technique and doesn't, and because he didn't do a lot of jumping, he has terrible jump technique, and he can't generate force in jumping. So we need to be specific in that regard and something that's different than track and field is we don't do, maybe throwing is similar to this, but we don't do a lot of the progressions that you would see in track and field with jumpers. So like, you know, in triple jump, you would start with a short approach, doing, you know, maybe the first phase into the sand, you know, or maybe you just do right-left bounding or with a high jumper, you might start with just approach work. You're not going to go day one and do full approach jumps. And the difference is, is that the eccentric force capabilities of those guys is way higher. So there, there needs to be a progression there. If you're talking about blue or you're talking to Dan, you're talking to Mike, they're going to have a very nuanced laid out progression across the year, right? We don't do that. You're going to be doing full approach jumps as soon as you possibly can. And the reason why is because two-foot jumping is really one acceleration step. That's just the penultimate step, which is the stride before your last two contacts. So if you're a volleyball player, you're going to get the majority of your momentum from that stride unless you're mega mega elite like Isaiah, where, you know, he's generating like 60% of his velocity in the first three strides and then getting the remainder of it in the final penultimate step into the takeoff. So with those guys, we need to work on that early. We need to work on it early. We need to work on it often because you're only going to get to do it once a week. And the reason why is because you're post puberty, you get 200 pounds. You don't have the luxury of jumping every day anymore. Your, your outputs are too high. You weigh too much. And inevitably, you're, you're going to get 10 in pain. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when. So that's another variable where we're constantly managing. So the sessions would typically be warm up, go to the track, do your sprints Monday, Wednesday, Friday, then on those high neural days, you're going to do some sort of power development early in the session because it's high priority. Then you're going to go into a triple extension exercise because the agonist is your hip, your quad and your, your calf. So, you know, you're going to be, I guess, if you want to consider a squat, triple extension, technically, you're not really pushing up on all the foot, but you're going to be working on that. That's a major key performance indicator is your deep squat. And then you need to do post-ear chain in some regard. You've already done it on the track, so you can't overload it with RDLs. And then we're probably going to do lower legwork. So a lot of track coaches, I think, have shifted in this regard, but they used to not do any lower legwork. They wouldn't do any calf raises or seated calf raises. Mike didn't do it. Dan didn't really do it, you know, boo to my knowledge. Didn't really do it. So I think those are going to be the big pillars, right? The, the big stones you need to move. And then we're going to do the general days, the low intensity days is recovery days, building general fitness, making sure we address all the biomotor capacities. We're treating these guys like world class athletes. Do they want to do that? That's the question. If you don't want to do that, then I'm probably going to take out the sprints. I'm probably going to make the general days easy. I'm going to say just do choice upper, do, you know, do something that's going to help your body composition because you're fat and increase your volume because you're fat and you need to, you need to build the habit of training and you need to fall in love with the process because if you don't, you're, I mean, you probably could dunk, but you're definitely not going to do you achieve your genetic potential, which is not the people that we want to work with. We, I don't like to use the word hate, but I would say that's probably my biggest peppy. If you don't want to put the time in, like my entire life, I just wanted to know what's the best way. So I'm going to give you the best way. My job is not to cuggle you like a little baby. So that's probably where I might differ. Also, Dana, I am hearing a little bit of feedback by the way now. That might have been my, oh, from you. I'm hearing my own voice. Okay. Let's go say that might have been my, my, I think that might be better there. That might have been my paper, but sorry. Yeah, I could hear my own voice. That was the only reason why I was like, okay, maybe, but yeah, so that would be the general consensus. So you'd jump on Friday, Saturday, we pretty much always have a feel, good lift. So maybe the change, I would say is instead of the Friday, the high intensity day is the jump session. That is your high neural activity on the day. That's the only thing you're going to do. It's the highest priority of the week. It's the most important thing. So everything else in the week was tertiary, not tertiary, probably secondary, generally non-specific. This is the most specific thing and you need to work on it. You need to jump as hard as you can. You need to have good technique. You need to try to dunk, right? I mean, if you want to throw the shot further, you've got to go throw the shot. You want to throw the disc further, you got to throw the disc. And so on Saturday, we almost always have what we call feel, good lift. So this takes into effect the principles of like heavy slow strength training and it's effect on tendon health. Pretty much always we're going to do isometrics every day. That's pretty well researched for knee health. So we like guys to do that. If they have Achilles pain, we might throw that in and we'll also do slow calf raises as well because those tend to be the big things. And then we'll touch on things like low back pain with some astume of gills research and doing the McGill Big Three. Sometimes that's too easy for guys. So I'll do anti-rotation work occasionally with them. You know, pal, pull off press or side plank or something like that. But rotational forces, I think are a little bit overblown in jumping. They matter. There's a whip and flow mechanism like shot, but it's not a key performance indicator, I would say. Okay. So I have a couple questions. Would they just be doing Olympic lifts like a clean or a snatch on a Monday and a Wednesday or would they be also be doing that on Saturday? Just Monday, Wednesday. Yeah. And then how do you, if you see somebody clean and you would you had mentioned what's their eccentric ability? Like let's say I see somebody clean or squat either, let's say both of those. What is the tell tale sign that they have poor eccentric ability? Like what do you see in your like, dude, that's this sucks for this person. This is what we would do. I don't think you could tell in a squat or a clean. I mean, in a power clean, you might be able to tell, but it's very rare that guys like him, you'd be able to tell because they're going to over pole. They're not going to jump underneath the bar efficiently. You're not going to see them. You're not going to see the weight crash in them lose the bar because it spits them out. That's with elite guys, you'll see that you'll see they'll get spit out of a clean. The bar will crash from, you know, two inches with 315 patterns, Isaiah, all the time, because even though we don't have, I mean, we do have intro, we do have force play date on that. But anecdotally, Isaiah and I can tell you that he gets spit out from cleans on the catch when it crashes. Right? So if that bar is falling, you know, I think we've done the math. If you have, I think it's like 325 on the bar and it falls, you know, let's say, like six inches, we look at like three to six inches. The forces are insane though. The forces were insane because it's, it's, you're in an asymmetric condition when that bar hits you. Right? So you're getting like a true stretch-wortening cycle out of that. I mean, maybe not the, the ideally you stand it up, right? But it's really intense, like very, very intense when you're proficient and it'll spit you out. If you jump underneath that bar, you're in a mechanically disadvantaged position. You don't get the wrapping effect. You can't ride it down. So now that bar is going to crash on you and it's, your legs will give out. It feels like a shock to your system. So you're only going to see that with guys who have been cleaning for a while. It's very rare that guys with proficient or non-proficient or perfect technique are going to do that. They're probably going to meet the bar naturally because they're going to pull with the arms. So they're going to start to naturally, uh, deep or slow the bar down from crashing. They're going to stop the true freefall of the bar. They're going to have a higher average VLO sometimes because, uh, you know, they'll have a good peak VLO, but they won't, uh, they'll be pulling so long with the arms or they'll almost reverse curl it. You know, you sometimes see throwers do this and track guys. They, you know, guys with big uppers, you can see all the time. Uh, and it's funny because I think traditionally guys will say, well, don't, don't use your upper body. Don't use your upper body. You put EMG act, you know, if you had, uh, EMG units on their upper body, I promise, they're going to be pulling with their brake yalus and like upper back and stuff like that. So I think you still do. But with, when guys are really good, they, they time that correctly and they move their body around the bar really proficiently in a power clean and it will crash to some degree. Now when Isaiah makes his list, it doesn't crash, it crashes much. If he meets the bar well, then he can decelerate it pretty well. But you really can't tell that even won't be a good indices. The best way to tell is how do you jump? What is your jumping? What's what's your one foot jumping? What's your two foot jumping? What's your RSI? What's your sprint? Up rate, sprinting like that's where you're going to really be able to tell eccentric capacities because even you could even argue maybe like, you know, amurization, isometric eccentric kind of like coupling. Um, so what does that look like in a, in a unilateral or bilateral jump? If you see somebody sends you a video and you're like, uh, this, that, that aspect, the eccentric capability is lacking. What would you see? You're going to see very. So I'm cheering. This is, yeah, yeah. You're probably going to see guys who do not. They have very long your motivation periods. They have very long ground contact time. They don't carry a lot of speed into the jump. They feel very uncomfortable when they add a lot of speed in the jump. And they. Like some guys will go into a full squad. That's like the worst case scenario. Squatty. It's like we joke about it. It's like how power lifters jump. Like it's very squatty. They don't have a lot of approach speed. Like you really. You see you have really good. Like an athlete with a lot of. Calling it eccentric capabilities. Like they can run fast and they add like a foot to their vertical. Often approach. Because they can transfer all that speed vertically. Yeah. That's probably the biggest deficit. That's probably the biggest problem with jumping higher. Is you. We work on the propulsive aspect all the time. But guys typically lack breaking forces. So if you put them on a force plate, you have to do a counter-moving jump. You're going to see, you know, really bad eccentric capabilities a lot of the time. But two foot jumping is more concentric dominant than one foot jumping, right? So when you're a one foot jumper, they won't even jump off one. They can't really jump off one. You know, they're not good at quarter squats. They can't do rhythm quarters. They can't do RSI tests. They're really slow. You know, the things that are eccentric dominant activities like stretch-wortening cycles, plyos, stuff like that, they're going to suck at. They're going to be really bad at them. And sometimes you'll get guys that are good at that. And they still can't jump high off in approach or something like that, right? And that usually is more related to the coordinated aspects. So they don't know how to time it. They start pre-contracting at the wrong times. They've learned negative motor patterns like a good example of a guy that's like this is the Bob's like guy Ben. Love this guy's training is like pretty robust. You might have had a bounce at one point. Yeah, Ben the bounce. So Ben takes like the tiniest penalty in step of all time. But he'll still get his head to the rim, right? Because his eccentric capabilities are insane, right? They're really, really good. Blaine is also like this McConnell. I mean, there are size are insane. Their spring times are insane. But they didn't accumulate thousands and thousands and thousands of high quality reps when they were really light. Because now they like that stiffness almost to a point of like they're so stiff that being more compliant in a jump is awkward. Because two foot jumping you have some compliance, right? You need to allow yourself to get into deeper knee positions to generate impulse, right? Imagine if a shot putter, you know, you had a guy, a good, good way to think about this is like in the glide, right? You had a guy that wanted to throw from their, their eye, you know, they're like their eyebrow versus loading up and keeping it back on their shoulder, right? You'd be like, well, that's a big problem. Like you're losing so much impulse. So, you know, you're not going to be able to accelerate the shot as far now. You're losing time and they might still throw 16 meters or something. They might even throw further than that. Maybe they're 17. But they're probably not going to throw 20, right? Because you don't have the time necessary to generate the force on the shot to be able to do it. And it's very, very similar. The similarities between shot put and two foot jumping are way more than people realize. And yeah, there's more eccentric forces, but it is the motor pattern and the qualities that help you jump higher off two feet are very similar to the qualities that help you jump high or throw the shot far outside of like maybe bench press and the rotational aspects. But like, you know, you're a big throws coach. You love your guys to squat and clean a lot of weight, right? Same thing. We want the same capabilities. We want them to be able to generate a deep. Am I allowed to swear on the podcast? Yeah. We want them to generate a shit load of force concentrically and be able to have massive propulsive forces, but also be good in a stretch shortening cycle. Like on the block foot hits. I don't know what the peak forces are on that, but it's pretty significant. I've seen those guys hammer the, you know, the front board, you know, and it's like there's a lot of breaking forces in that weapon flow mechanism. You know, even in Jav, Jav is like crazy. You plant the, the block foot and like the breaking forces are really high. Is it propulsive and leading vertically? No. I mean, it's more so to get a weapon flow mechanism, but it's still there are more similarities than I think people realize. And I think that we've, the programming has changed over the years to where we probably lean more into a shot like program than we do a sprint like program. Because it's for two foot jumpers, specifically, one foot jumpers is going to be different. So I wanted to, to, to almost double click on the technique for jumping because you've talked about this a couple of different times we brought up like. The technique of somebody's jump and then even mentioning this and I almost, I was going to ask Isaiah this if he could walk through like his last like two to three steps into a jump and what that perfect jump. Like the visualization. So somebody who's listening to this or watching can actually understand what they should be jumping like so that then when we're talking about it, they can, you know, the listener can then take this visual and know when John's going into all these these different aspects. It's like, oh shit. Now I see how the ISO or the partial range or the clean or all these things actually have an impact. So I wanted to, I wanted to see if Isaiah could do that. So over the years, how I've described technique has changed a lot. The most important aspect to a two foot approach is the penultimate step. So penultimate stands for second to last. And the best player I would tell anybody to understand what that looks like is John Moran. That really big step he takes right before he de-frick and flies on an NBA court. However, how the jump feels for me. It's not a penultimate step. And I actually don't like the word penultimate step. I think it should be called a penultimate jump. So what it feels like is I'm running. I'm not running as fast as I can. It's a very like controlled high speed jog is probably the pace that I'm running at. And then my right foot hits around the free throw line, sometimes behind the free throw line. And I want you to like, you know, think about the free throw line on the court. 15 feet away from the hoop. That's where I'm jumping from. So I take a giant step and I literally throw myself at the ground. And I'm in the way in the air for a while. And then the last two steps there. The only thing I'm thinking about is planting them down as quickly as I can and then go upwards. If you do it right, it feels effortless. And the approach takes care of the jump. So when you throw yourself. Like we were talking about eccentric forces. It is literally violent. Like nothing you do in the weight room feels quite like it. There's things that get close. For example, John was saying in the clean when it spits you out in that bar, frickin hammers you. That's that's very close to the sensation you feel. That's why part of the reason we love cleans. And we don't think other exercises come quite as close to it. But yeah, you literally throw yourself at the ground. Plant your legs as fast as they can. And if you're strong enough, you centrically. Your muscle stretch the tendon that thing is going to recoil and they're going to fly. Also in my camera just disconnected. So sorry about that. I don't know if you need to look good though right now. Okay. All right. I think. Okay. So one thing you mentioned there too is Isaiah was talking about throwing his body at the ground. Muscle stretch the tendon. And there's there's minimal things that you might do in the in the weight room. That will will sort of emulate that. I guess walk me through. What you might do in the weight room that could get close or even like that you might feel on the tendon or things that you might do and even like going into tendon health. Things that because I've watched a lot of your videos. So I want to see like from your perspective. How you guys then handle that in training to do your best to them prevent like any knee issue or or ankle issue or kill these issues. Stuff like that. Based off of how you just described the force that that will go into the joint into the tendons. From the stretch. So I can go to answer the first part of the question. I can go into what exercises. I feel transfer the most mean it's another joke me and John have like I'll whole program something for me. And then I'll tell them because I'm really in tune with my jumps and my training at this point and training for 12 years I think or something like that. And I can tell when things transfer pretty well. Some of the most intense exercises that I've done one of them was a 60 inch depth jumps. So we had a we had a vertex set up. I think we had it at 11 4. And we were essentially trying to see at what box height my vertical drops. So she started cool. We started out I think it was like 12 or something like that. Then we went 24 and 36. And when we were seeing us. I kept jumping higher and higher and higher. Yeah, we had a vertex out. Yeah. And it got to the point where we were literally at 60 inches. And I was still getting higher and 60 inches was kind of where I started. See it. Like it started getting really hard. - Let me paint this for idiots like myself. Is that you're putting a box next to, you're testing, so you're testing a vert. And you're saying, okay, test the vert on the ground. Let's just, I know your vert, let's say 45 inches, right? Okay, we put the box at 12 inches and you go 46, 47. You put the box at 18 inches, you go 46, 47. You put the box at 24, 46, 47. You put the box at 42, you're still going 45. You still have not going down, past the initial test. You put the box at 60 inches and you were still jumping 45. - It was. - Maybe 44. - Yeah. - It was like, it was terrifying. Like, vert was like, off vert was like 40.5 or 41 or something like that. - It was on the dot, 40 on the dot. - Okay, and then the first box was like 36, 'cause the loading, yeah, it was just the different motor pattern. And then I think it was like, we might have went to 30 and then it was like 40 inches. And then we went to like 50 and he was like 42 and then went to like 60 and then he was like, 44 or 45. Like he never, it was like the more load he could get in his legs, the more eccentric forces you could put into the ground, like you could throw him into, the more he would be able to rebound out of it. - And then, and then I wanna put this visual too. I was talking about the penultimate jump. That's technically what I'm doing, right? I'm running and then I'm accelerating even more and throwing myself at the ground. So think about like, I'm flying horizontally 12 feet through the air and loading. And on the court, the more aggressive and the longer my penultimate is and the faster I am when I get into the penultimate, the higher I tend to jump. Now there might be days where that's limited based on how fatigued I am. Like there was a day recently we were doing a jump session. I was super fatigued. I go into the court, my penultimate step looked like trash. Like I was just like, mind you, I can do, you know, East Bay 360 beyond the back, whatever, any dunk under the sun that you can imagine. To the point that like, between the legs, my tongue's a layup, a windmill is a layup. I was struggling to windmill. Like my vertical was down like 10 inches this day. How dare you struggle to windmill? (laughing) That's embarrassing for him. I was shaking her. And then John, you know, it's 30 minutes into this pathetic session and then John's like, hey, like get your head out of the freaking dirt. Like take a long penultimate, like aggressive penultimate here. Like I wanna see it. I don't care if you're fatigued, like try. I could not for the life of me get do a long penultimate. Like I couldn't, like it felt like my brain, like my nervous system was just like dial down to 50%. And I just couldn't, I couldn't open up those freaking neurons, the calcium, I on channels, whatever they're called. So a lot of what you can handle eccentricly is so dependent on your nervous system. Like how much output can you get? But yeah, this day it felt just like it. Like that high of a box, it felt very, very, very similar to my jumping and what was interesting is I was also going to my jump depth. So there's different ways you can do depth jump. Like you can shorten your ground contact time and really stiff and come back up, which is like the most commonly recommended way for Pio's. But I was going into like my jump depth and then exploding up and just trying to time it really well. So that's one exercise that transfers the catch on a power clean on a heavy ass power clean. Like when I'm, I was just trying to PR at 330 and I'd spent, oh, actually you might have not given me that many tries, but I think the previous week before you were there, Don. Yeah, I was trying three, either 325 or 330, tried it like 12 times in a row, couldn't get it. And it was same thing. It was 330, it was hammering me, dropping, you know, three inches and just punching me. And then I was like trying to fight it and then I wasn't strong enough to get the catch. But that's also like, we call that training. It's not really failing like right there, you're training. So that's one. Talk about the hex bar. Yeah, eccentric, we overloaded hex bar jumps. This exercise sounds ridiculous. There's ways you can do it without a partner, but we've done hex bar jumps where I do a hex bar jump and then John, while I'm mid air, throws me into the ground. So I'll have like, you know, 135 on there and then I'm trying to like fight the eccentric part of the hex bar jump and then jump back up. And then in the, as far as like strength exercises, I call it the fancy stuff. So you have your regular, you know, back squat, front squat, deadlift, power cleaning, your strength movements. But the variations that we do later in the year. So we, I was just doing pin squats. And we get it like putting 70% 80% of my max, standing it up as quick as I can. A lot of like squat jump variations. Those all feel very specific. And for me personally, I like this stuff that's a little heavier. Not your traditional plio, or it's like really light. And you're like, I said earlier, landing stiff. It's like, I'm seeing bigger ranges of motion and moving the weight hard and fast with a lot of intent. - Okay, so I got a question for John off of that because the one of John's videos was, he was talking about transfer of training. And I, let me go off on a little tangent to bring this back is he mentioned and what this has to do is with your loaded jumps that you were just talking about. He mentions too long of a ground contact time. I almost took it like, so in distance running, there's like high intensity work, which would be like a Norwegian protocol where you just get your heart rate to skyrocket. And I always compare that to like a heavy clean. And then they have like the LSD work, which to me is more like the strength work. You're just, you gotta do this work to be a good distance runner. And then they have, what some people will say is like, trash work where you go at in this middle zone and it's not that good. And it made me think about, it doesn't actually transfer to either one. And John had mentioned too long of a ground contact time on certain plyometrics. I guess John, my question to you then is like, in this case, when Isaiah is mentioning this, does it not matter as much because the load is so much more intense that even though the ground contact time might be longer because the load is so much greater than if I was doing like, I was thinking about this. And maybe to me, it's like a jump lunge is like a trash pile because you do have a longer ground contact time versus like almost doing like a pogo jump split jump or something like that. Does that make any sense as a question? Like how do you avoid that? - So it's like, if I'm correct, you're basically asking, like, you know, is this trash volume because it's non-specific at that point, right? Like your ground contact lines are too long for it to apply. And I think, you could even take that, and this is usually the caveat to the argument is, you could take that logic all the way out. Why, why, why do you power claim? Why do cafes raises, right? They're all slow. They're all really slow. And so it's not always about the, what it looks like, it's more so about the physiological changes that you're gonna get, right? We're not trying to get the same, if I wanted to make it more specific, yeah, I could tell him, hey, lighten the load, I'm gonna accelerate you, or I want you to pogo off the ground, or, you know, especially a one-foot jumper, but as a two-foot jumper, you know, I might say, hey, stop at your jump depth. Like stop at your jump depth, we're gonna go slightly later, whatever else, or I would just do a normal rocket jump or something, right? The problem is now your, the total, maybe the peak forces aren't as high, but the intramuscular forces are gonna be really, really high, right? For him to yield against me throwing him down to the ground with 60 kilos requires him to have an immense amount of intramuscular tension. So even though it's not necessarily specific from a velocity point of view, or maybe you're not getting the same shortening mechanism that you would get, 'cause the ground contact times are too long, it's still specific intramuscularly in that we need high eccentric force, we need very high forces, we have to be able to handle those. You have to be able to handle and overload that, right? And so you could conceivably progress it, right? You could do, you know, let's say I had him do the depth jumps and I said, hey, instead of catching yourself in a quarter squat, and this kind of inherently happened, I would just put him on a box high enough where he has to drop down into a slight half squat, you know, or I could, like I said, I could lighten the load and I could try to accelerate him faster. So now the momentum that he has to stop is higher, but he conceivably could potentially get a short of ground contact time. We'd have to test that. I haven't really tested that to say it differently. - I think the way Isaiah was describing the penultimate and like throwing himself to the ground is what, like then when John, when you just came in and you like added that, I don't know, something went off for me where it's like, that's why, because that, like he's literally like throwing himself to the ground and then. the image of you, 'cause I think you did post this on Instagram, if I remember, putting that load, that added load on the jump, on the hex jump, it like, I personally think it's legit. Like I think it's, I think it makes sense because you're taking the technique and then there is that eccentric load. - And there's some first times where you can do it. Like you could even just do a weighted depth jump if you wanted. Right? - Yeah. - You could put a 40 pound weight best on, you could do it that way. Like, you know how I view it is, there's tons of ways that it's gonna cut. The thing I'm searching for in there is, okay, we're month three or four. We're in, so now we're kind of getting into specific prep. Maybe we're kind of like leaning into pre-comp. He's coming into a big competitive year. We've done three months of very heavy lifting. We've been doing heavy cleans. He's kind of where he's at now, right? Like, he's pring his clean, he's pring his back squat, but his velos are lower, right? So we're using the residual training effects of this previous cycle for the next one where we say, look, your force velocity curve has shifted. Now you were, and I explained this to him the other day, and I think we talked about it on the podcast that we did, which was basically, if I were to track the velo of each of these loads, right? Over time. Last year, you would have had higher velos in the middle of the curve, right? At 120 kilos, you're going to be moving that weight faster than you are right now. But if I put 140 kilos on the bar in a clean pole, or I put 150 kilos on the bar, your velos are higher at those heavier loads. So there's a very obvious deficit that we have to fix. And that's okay because that's the adaptations you would expect, right? I mean, if you're doing something a bunch of times, you're going to get better at that thing, right? We did a lot of heavy cleans. Heavy cleans are slower. Your velos are going to be slower. Maybe your average velo was higher, or maybe your technique got better. But we don't see Isaiah make his heaviest cleans when he has the highest velos even. He could have the highest velo that he's ever had, and he will miss a clean. Because maybe that velo happened at the wrong time. Maybe it happened when the bar was in a lower position. So now the bar isn't accelerating as hard. Maybe he used the arms more or less during the third pole under the bar. Maybe the bar was slightly at a position because of it. And so right now the goal is not peak velos. The goal is not peak power. We're going to shift into that this next cycle in those progressions. But then we've also got on the other end of things we're doing max concentric work, right? We haven't, you know, you're infinitely stronger eccentrically than you are concentrically. And when you're looking at a stretch-ordering cycle, you could even argue, well, maybe isometric conditions are even more important. Or potentially these kind of relatively fast ones where the Musculotin is unit is lengthening. So now we're moving into a stage where it says, look, we need to get your velo at these peak powers better. It's still non-specific. You're still, the bar is only going to move 2.4 meters per second. You're moving four meters per second on a jump vertically. So you're still wildly off, right? You're not even close. But does that mean peak power work is not valuable? I don't think so. I think high tides raise all ships. So if I increase your force generating capacity in these regards, right? They're still non-specific. But we're still jumping you around. We're still doing the really, really specific stuff. So now I say, in my opinion, the weight room is always going to be one degree of separation away from what you're doing on the field, or you're doing on the quarter, or doing on the track. It's never going to be perfect, right? Because otherwise, you're just doing the activity. That does not mean the weight room is pointless. Should you just not do it? No, because there's other physiological adaptations that you can benefit from, right? I can still get more motor recruitment in the weight room potentially. I could get-- I could still work on brake coating. I can still work on. There's still things that you can do that are productive, or that might just keep you healthy, right? And so some people will say, well, screw all that, John. Just stay healthy. Just get really strong and jump, right? And I think that that's a little bit short-sighted. I think there's benefits to doing these other things. And I've seen it time and time again and tested it time and time again, where guys end up getting better, longitudinally, over time. Does it mean that they're going to get better when I think they're going to get better? Not always. Sometimes Isaiah will jump as high as during a concept or dominant cycle. And then we're like, OK, we're going to go hammer concentric work. Well, then you hit training, Monotony. And then he gets worse. And then we're like, oh, nope, it was always the same stuff. It was always the same stuff. I view it like crop cycling, right? You can't just keep hammering away at the same thing forever. Eventually, your field is going to become deficient of nutrients and minerals and things that you might have needed for the next cycle of crops. So now we're going to move into something that's-- we're going to move up the force velocity curve. And some coaches would say, well, that's in a condition where the muscle is in a lab, and you're just stretching it. OK, cool. But you're not fully isometric the entire time you're jumping. You're not fully eccentric. You go through all three muscular conditions. Right? You're going to have a period where you're eccentric. You're going to be high breaking forces. You're going to hit a period where is isometric. You're going to hit a period where you're concentric. There's going to be a period where your muscle is staying concentric and your tendons lengthening and you're getting a bunch of energy. So we're going to get more specific. And we're going to move up that continuum. So now we're going to a period where something like super maximal squats or eccentric are really valuable. Because now we can rev up the nervous system. We know that you recruit more type 2 fibers and eccentricity. We know that the tendon adaptations can be very positive. If you do them fast, you can get circumference genesis and that will increase your contraction velocity. So it's not necessarily that you're going to see these immediate changes. We're talking about things that are very hard to measure and track. And we're functioning under the assumption that these changes are happening based on the research that we have and the information that we have. So if I put them under-- and we're going to do this next month-- his half-- his full back-- belt squat is four. What is it now, Isaiah? Four or five-- Full squat half range of motion. I think 500. What about a full? Four or 10. So we want to see some sarcomere genesis happen. You got to be under four seconds. You got to be at long muscle lengths. I'm going to put 500 pounds on the bar. I'm going to say, lower this for six seconds. I'm not looking forward to that. It's going to be awesome. I'm going to have 70 things. Yeah, it's going to be awesome. And then after that, we're going to complete that cycle. He's going to unload. He's going to feel like garbage because I just completely wrecked his nervous system. And then we're going to look at the bar, whatever his velos on the power clean now. We're also going to work on these lighter loads. We're going to be moving 275 and 245 and 265 every week. And the metric is not the weight on the bar. It's going to be, did you hit a higher peak V low? And I might not even let him see those numbers because sometimes it can deflate him. But I'm going to track those numbers. And I'm going to know, OK, you're very fatigued. These numbers are dropping because they're more sensitive. And maybe we need to back off in these areas or I need to drop volume or maybe it was a little overzealous. And I'm going to make those adjustments. And then after that cycle, the assumption is now you have sarcomere genesis. Your tenons are stiffer. Your motor recruitment's better. Your eccentric capacities have gone up, maybe in the slower stuff. So now we've got a big deficit on the fast eccentric stuff. And then we're going to address that stuff. So that's where that's usually going to jump really high. When he jumps really high. So concentric or fast eccentric. Okay. We don't usually split them. I'll always do-- I will always have some form of fast concentric work in there in one way or another, whether it's in the form of-- a power clean, which is predominantly concentric, or other power exercises. Isaiah likes cleans, so we do them a lot. Maybe it's jump squats or something like that. Maybe it's a longer ground contact plio, right? You can still get really fast concentric forces on that stuff and still challenge yourself and challenge your nervous system. It's non-specific in some regards, but it's more specific than slow back squatting. It's not as specific as maybe max effort jumping. So it's more so how do we get the meaningful adaptations that we want so that long term we can get these changes. And I don't go into this stuff with the guys. I just write the workouts. And I say, just do the workouts. What would be-- With Isaiah's peak-- you measure his peak velocity on like his PR clean. We have-- How do we look? That's PR. Not a PR clean. We've gotten close. I don't like-- Let's say like a 300 pound clean. What is he? What's his peak? Let's pull up the data Isaiah. Do you have the data? I think the highest I have might be the-- 295? No, it might have been the 280. There's a YouTube video somewhere where we measured-- I think it's around-- It's like 100. Is it like 1.8 maybe? Because I was trying to-- I wanted to know that relative to the snatch, if you-- what that would be-- and then relative to your, let's say, average velocity on like a high speed concentric back squat from a partial range of motion. So typically, someone would be looking at like when-- Isaiah does a pin squat, right? Like someone scrolled braining on Instagram would see him do a pin squat and be like, oh, that's exactly like a jump. And so what's interesting for me is like when I talk to high school kids or-- I mean, even my Olympic throwers, whatever, I'll be like, yo, I want to see these ratios on this snatch or on this jerk or on this squat or on this-- I don't know if you guys had that with their-- I-- So I have-- we have a Google sheet where we track it. John, we actually did measure on 320, my PR. Oh, what a-- Oh, beautiful. I have the-- Is that a clean floor power clean? Power clean. OK. The only problem is we have it as-- Watts per kilogram by that way, but I think you can do the equation somehow. Let me uh, here, let me do this. Yeah. John, I wanted to bring you all he does that. You had a, in one of your videos, you talked about like a poll, like a, like a clean pull or a snatch pole versus racking it. And this is something so a lot of people will argue like, well, you don't need to do weightlifting movements or whatever. Every single athlete I have that racks that can rack a clean every single one. If they rack a clean, the peak velocity goes up versus if they just do a poll. And I'm always like, and I'm not saying that that means that they will then be able to be more powerful or more impulsive, whatever term, will you want to use? But it's training them more regularly to increase their neuromuscular efficiency in summary. I strongly. So I thought that I wanted to bring that up. Yeah. As like a random thing. Dan back and I always go back and forth on this. So it's interesting to hear that I, you know, it's, I like, I've three guys here. We don't pull out the VBT a ton because guys get in their head about it. But we have three guys that live at the house with me. One of them has a 45 inch vertical or 44 and, uh, cleans 300 power cleanser, 300 waist, 200 pounds squats. I think he's hit 400 now deep squat. We've another guy that weighs 210 has like a 50 inch vertical and power cleansed through 15. We've another guy that has a 48.5 inch vertical. He's like 150, probably, yeah, maybe 145 and power cleansed to 25, I think. And maybe his back's where he says I've got ankle mobility. So that metric doesn't really matter. But, um, we don't, I, if I pull out the VBT for them, they tend to shift the bed. Um, and Isaiah does it very often. They'll get in their heads about it. Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm detrained. I'm fatigued. I, you know, I shouldn't be doing this and whatever else. And so it's like oftentimes I just don't pull it out because I want them to focus on making the clean, make the clean rep, right? Uh, and there's, and there's, like I said, there's cycles probably once, once or twice a year, uh, where I'll pull it out and I'll watch, watch the VLOS change. But, um, you know, I, I don't like to get to, I don't like to track too often, not because I don't want the data, but because I want it's tedious and time consuming. And I have other things I have to do. So if I want to set up timing gates or I want to set up VBT's pretty easy, but then I have to track those numbers and put it in a spreadsheet and, you know, and then the athlete is doing it for me. And then they're ultimately looking at the data and I don't want that. So some of it is like, uh, logistics. You don't have a whole team of guys that are doing data analysis for me. Um, but yeah, it would be interesting to see, you know, on those, yeah, and a max out day, I don't like to do it either because that's not the goal, right? Now, next up, based off of those, like your guys, like a ratio that you would use, I know I'm still going to wait for Isaiah. So Isaiah, don't think I forgot about you. Um, a ratio that you would say, like, you know, body weight ratio for clean squat, front squat, as a gold standard, but it doesn't always equal that. We actually did, we had a, we had an athlete who was a data scientist and he actually created a form where we surveyed. I want to say it was Isaiah, do you remember how many people we surveyed? It was quite a bit. It was a lot of athletes. And we looked at their power clean, their standing vertical, their two foot approach, um, their squat and stuff like that. And there were a few, the biggest, most interesting thing is the number one thing was their power clean. Their power clean was the most, the greatest predictor of their two foot vertical, um, across the board. So I don't, it doesn't always, but we also didn't see a one to one correlation. Like if you do this, you will do this where you, if you do this, you should do this. We didn't necessarily see that because there's cross it, crossfit guys in there that have 35 inch verticals that power clean, you know, or a 35 inch vertical that power clean through 45. So it doesn't always equate. And we've talked, Isaiah and I have talked about this a lot because of the leverages, it, it changes things. If you can, if you're five, six, you've got tiny femurs, you've got tiny tibias, and you've got a long torso, you're probably going to be able to clean a lot of weight if you've got proficient technique, right? But if you're six, let's just take it, if you're the jolly green giant, right, that bar is going to move a lot further. It's going to move a lot further. You've got accelerate it harder, right? Your leverages might be better externally, but internally, you're going to have to generate a ton of force to accelerate that bar. And so it's more what's your height, what's your weight and what's your power clean? That's more so how I view it. So if you're short and you have a low power clean internally, I don't have set numbers, but I know there's a big deficiency there. And you need to work on your power clean, like you should be power cleaning more than Isaiah. If you're tall and you power clean a lot of weight, then that's an, that's a major indices that you're free. You know, you're, you're going to jump high. It's just a matter of teaching you technique, getting more jump reps in. You have the requisite ability to jump high, your nervous system. The power clean to me is one of the best metrics for the nervous system. And I see in high jump all the time too guys, away one 50 and they'll hang power clean with straps like 275 to 330. And then they'll go out and they'll do something that's even more nearly sensitive than two foot jumping that at an crazy elite level. And so for me, it's one of the strongest indices for performance. And if guys don't want to do it, they generally lack other things that aren't going to make them great. They don't want to, they don't want to do the thing that's going to, that's an elite, probably one of the greatest predictors of perform our correlative predictors of not a predictor in dices. Cool. Then you probably aren't going to want to squat, you know, four by 10 or five by 10 at 65%. That's going to suck. I say, we don't agree right now. 185, 8.8% Dexa. We have the data. I was asking to with that like, so my one multi that he's at two time, he got fifth of the Olympic trials twice and like, made two 15 high jumper sand black. Oh, okay. Yeah, D two national champ. Yes. That's who's 15 on his best high jump sort of sucks on the runway, but can run a on the long, but has run, uh, suck like a 10, 5, 9 in the 100, which is pretty good. That's yeah. Um, real good. What's interesting with the kid like him is like, he can clean 325 and he can jump out of the building. He is pretty fast. He's hurtles are pretty good. But then his long jump sucks. And it's such a weird. I was going to ask you, why do you think that is? I don't know if it's a technical thing, but it's it's almost and it's weird too, because I always equated the long jump to a javelin throw and it's javelin is sort of mid as well. Um, but I, yeah, that's why I was sort of asking that. And it's like what like a ratio of squat or ratio body weight ratio for front squats. And then I wanted to see also when you guys do your sprint stuff, do you see a higher correlation between like a flying 10 to jumps or a 10, a 10 yard sprint to your jumping ability? One foot flies for sure flies are a really good indices. They're all good in dices, but fly seems to be if you're specifically like the guys that are really elastic. They're still slow. Like as one foot jumpers, they're just not sprinters. They don't get up to the same bellows. But generally if they're better at 10 meter flies, they're going to high jump better. I've oftentimes seen that specifically, they're generally speed jumpers, which means they kick their butt to their heel. They rotate around the bar really well. Um, you know, they they're really good at amortizing it super high forces. Um, and then for the two foot jumpers, their acceleration and dices are crazy. Um, and if you improve the acceleration and dices, typically they're going to be better. So 10, 20, 30, you get better at that stuff, typically 10 and 20. They're going to it's, I don't know if it's something where it's like they got better at the 10 and 20 and therefore they're jumping higher or if it's, they got better at jumping, they got better at the stuff that makes them jump higher. And therefore they got faster. Generally speaking though, the higher Isaiah's jump, the faster he's gotten and the faster he's gotten, he's more well trained. And when he unloads, he will jump higher. That's probably the way I would explain it. It's more like a tool to induce fatigue, specific fatigue, more so than it is, uh, like get better at this and you'll get better at this. And it makes me way more fit body common proves. Yeah. The thing. You have those peak velocities. I realized we don't have how the distance I moved it. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I think it's in a YouTube video somewhere. I was looking through our YouTube videos and I want to say, I want to say it's like one, I want to say it's like 1.8. I want to say that that seems, does that seem fast to you, Dane? No. Well, yes, it's fast, but it would, it would make sense. Like maybe not as max, but I do think that would, that would, that would typically be a power clean reading. Like I always think like you, you might see the best snatchers are 1 8 5 to, to two meters per second depending on their technique. You're seeing a power snatch or full snatch? A full snatch. And then you would see, you would see the power clean creeping close to that on a, on a less efficient technical lifter compared to the, the weight lifter who's let's say I made a world team. And then from the, from the full snatch to a power snatch, you go over two meters. And then from, from the power to a muscle, you would go two, five to three plus meters per second on a muscle. So that does make sense. And that's where it's like I was even, you know, some of the questions too around related to the partial range of motion. I didn't know if you had that average velocity on a partial range of motion. And then even comparing average velocity. So like if we take, we do, when you guys mentioned the speed, eccentric, sometimes we'll do, we'll, we'll call them on broken where you go like one, two, three, four on a, on a back squat or something. And then we'll also measure that full range, eccentric high speed on broken. And then we compare it to a control eccentric. But then we want our guys to maintain average velocity over like 0.7 meters per second. And we see how high we can push the load. And it, there tends to be a pretty good correlation. And these are all guys that are 35 to 40 inch vert guys that are 250 to 300 pounds. So that's why I was wondering. If you think, if you make comparisons of your full range to your partial range squats, if there's a ratio and then same thing with all those other numbers, we actually haven't done a lot of VLO stuff with the squatting because it's so fatiguing. Yeah. Like as soon as, as soon as you add max intent to any back squat, like yeah, just, and then it takes away from a lot of the other stuff we're trying to accomplish by that point. We've already cleaned also in the workout. So like kind of take that box. I just noticed it throttles them and their jump session just goes to absolute that's what's crazy is like you take that and you say, so our one dude, Sam, he just hit, he hit 220 for a triple 0.7 meters per second over all that, which is heavy like 485. You're saying eccentricly the average? No, on the concentric. On the concentric? Yeah. And that's that's like, you know, he could back squat probably close to 300 kilos. So 660. So this is around, you know, like 75 to 80% of his, but it's moving like moving fast. This to Catholic can do with that much. No, no, no, this is another Sam. This is Sam Maddett. This is, this is a discus thrower. Sorry. I about shit myself. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. So Sam, this is Sam Maddett. He's 270, 275. He's cleaned 200 kilos and he's got like around 38 inch on the vert. But dude, just from that, then the next two days and throws, we just do rain stuff because he's so sore from it. So it's an interesting thing. But then what happens is day three and day four after that, he's fresh. He just, it's like he feels a little twitchier. So it's something that we do as a segue into when we start to peak. It's almost like the segue program that we use to peak into indices and so our mind will go like throw throw throw, like four days of throwing in a row. Well, we throw, I mean, we do, we throw a lot like we're throwing like five, six days a week. But I was curious about that with with him, let's say one program we're doing, he ramps up to, let's just say a 280 back squat, right? And then we might do six doubles at a cluster, 0.7 meters per second. That would be the, we might run that for four to six weeks. That would be the, the program that we would use just prior to the season starting where he's going to be competing for money and like we got to be in pretty good shape. So it's like he's starting to move shit fast. But the, the thing that's weird is went so he throws very hard that day and then he lifts afterwards. And then he's not going to he'll be trash in the circle until about three to four days later. And then he throws well again. So are you lifting between like do you have any lifts after that big squat session? Like day, like let's say day one's the throw in squat session. Do you lift day two day three day four? Day two would be, day two would be an upper body day. So he'll do like like behind the neck jerks, upper body. And there's not a fatigue to that. But he's, he'll be sore. But the throw day will be like a range day. So like he's just trying to pepper ranges with his technique. Like 16 me or he's a discus thrower. So he's a 71 meter discus thrower. So he would throw 60 to 64. Let's say just kind of just wrap it out. Yeah. Get the motor pattern. Day three would either be a drill day or he's off. Day four is when he would go do he does like a light jumps day and some throws throws before the jumps. And then that next day, it's almost like the jumps get him like geared back up. And then the next day he's like ready to smash again. What's crazy is I've heard this so many times and I've tested it with guys and we do something that it's not quite like that. We'll like a load management setup for guys that have 10 in pain. I'll have them do their high neural jumping. I've paired it with cleans and stuff like that before. But not crazy often try to keep things like pretty complimentary and compatible. And then they'll do a lift the following day. And then they'll have an off day. And then or just ISOs or like rehab or whatever. And then they'll go back to jumping. Sometimes I'll have a rest day and then back the jumping day four. And oftentimes guys can do that for about two weeks. And then they just implode. So it's I would assume it's probably just the sensitivity of it being so eccentric dominant. Like I think eccentric forces just I think they can really, really, really fatigue you in jump sessions. And we used to I think we used to like I say used to be a jump addict. He wanted to jump every single day still. And I had to reel him in because those sessions were so fatiguing we couldn't do anything else of value. And he would also usually be hurt. It's gone to the point where my because we go like the original set up john said Monday Wednesday high intensity days Friday jump days Saturday feel good. It's gotten to the point where if I even this past week wasn't even a long session. It's probably maybe like 30 minutes of jumping. I want to say john. Yeah, I was short. I built up to one max effort jump like where I was testing or maybe like 95% and then the Monday lift is always bad. Like I just I look at yeah, like I never have a Monday lift where I'm feeling sharp so that I can clean a lot of weight. And then we usually do clean pulls on that Monday session. And clean pulls going into you know 100% of my power clean max as high as like 105, 107.5. And then that Wednesday lift always murdering it. Like I'm feeling great. But if I max a power clean, like if I go above like 90% and I got a lot of 90% on Wednesday Friday sessions bad. Okay. If I build up to a power clean, it reminds me how you said the range throwing. Yeah, like if I build up to like 85% and then not get a ton of volume there. I'll jump great on Friday. Okay. But anytime I talk that intensity, like I can't do it back to back sessions. It's even like 48 hours isn't enough time like 72 depending on how intense we go. If he does crazy centric work, it's like he's ruined. If we're doing those true squats like I was saying, eccentric and any knee extension, game over, like just destroyed. Now if I were to drop the load, like let's say I did the protocol you said, he might be able to bounce back. Like because it's concentric dominant, right? You're how fast do they lower? Did you say is it like unbroken or is he just going? Yeah, it's just it's without popping and that's where when you were talking about the eccentric capability, my experience is like if I get an athlete one, if they front squat and they suck at front squats, I know they can't that they they can't reactively meaning like they can't reactively jump. They might be able to jump concentrically like let's just say a hurdle hop or something like that, but they could not if they suck at front squats, they can't react. That's fascinating. That's where I see the eccentric load there and same with the unbroken because if we get a kid who unbroken and he falls forward, he sucks at jumping typically and then as you pointed out also we we'll see that with cleans. The weird thing that I wanted to bring up, I want to send you guys a single leg roller because we'll we'll have single leg squats and if we have kids that suck at single leg squats unbroken, they suck it as a two foot of jumper, but then if they're good at it even even though I know the conception would be like oh it wouldn't transfer single leg squat when we put our data with our guys has a very high correlation with two foot of jumper. So that's the other and I think that's I think it's partially the the eccentric control on that is like the capability of like if you're not you're in a single leg position and if you can't hold that you're you're gonna fall over like you you're forced to have more more trunk control basically. The first place I go to in my head with this is those are all like super quad dominant movement and without fail like I don't think we've ever seen someone get better at an upright quad dominant movement, whether it's squatting, single leg or on a hack squat, anything we're just super upright in squatting. The belt squat actually, my favorite lift right now for that, and not see a guy jump higher, especially if they're vertical. So what we consider like jumping high versus not jumping high, like I, and I think John feels the same way. However, in the regular S&C world, like any sport, you know, anything above like 36 is considered like pretty elite. But what I've seen, if you're under 45 inches of vertical, getting your squat stronger and like enforcing an upright, like in the very beginning of the episode, you said like that. Good morning, bent over. I'm talking like, that's not transfer. Ask the grass. You're upright. No matter how heavy it is, you're not breaking position. You're making the squat feel harder by staying upright. If you get that stronger, like you can ride those gains up to 42, 43, 44, and then you know the, the plyos, the eccentric work, the isometrics, all that stuff. That's like where once you're past that like 44, 45 range, it's like if you're not touching that stuff, you're probably going to stay plateaued. Um, is generally what we've seen. What's up guys, our podcast and our channel are sponsored by our own strength training at peak strength. The entire focus of peak strength is to provide you guys with the absolute best sports performance app that you could ever imagine. We build out the programs on the back end. We take in all of these different decisions that we learned here on site at garage strength so that we can then apply it to you so that you can improve your training. So if you guys want to improve your overall sports performance, head over to peakstrength.app. The Google Play Store or the Apple iOS store download peak strength. You'll go to free week of training and then you can start getting on those gains, get those reps done so that you can become a champion. Now let's get back to the video. Peace. Okay. So let's say this. Let's, let's say and maybe this is where I'm like, I don't understand the anti clean people or anti snatch people like, so we got a kid this kid Evan. Oh, dude, first of all, all of our weight lifters, they don't jump. We jump like we might do 40 to 50 jumps a week max and that might even just be like like Pogo hops or something like that, but they all have huge vets and I guess. So what I wanted to say first before I ask you the question was like, I don't get that if you squat, ask to grasp the front squat or back squat and then you are also doing partial range stuff and then you're also feeling clean. Like I don't understand. It's not that hard for you to get over a 35 inch vert. Like dude, it just happens like you should just be able to do that. But if you don't want to clean, you're immediately putting yourself behind the eight ball by saying, well, it's too hard to do that. It has techniques. Everything that you do has techniques. So happy you're saying this. I'm so happy. How the freaking do it? Beautiful. Beautiful. So when people say it to me, I'm like, who are you training that can actually do something well because you must, you guys must suck and everything and it always is mind blowing. Sorry. I wanted to rant a little bit. I have a funny story about it. I have no idea. It's my it's my past. So I'm a funny story doctor. It's just thing called dunk camp that happens every year. Yeah. That's where John did the interview of the podcast with with back with Dan. Yeah. So at dunk camp this last year, they added this station where it was like a power clean station. I was teaching it's I think it was like 80 athletes at dunk camp. They split them in groups of five. It might have been and then I just like for like hour and a half straight, I just taught power clean to everybody. And the power cleans or the groups were divided by essentially your skill level, like how how you could jump. And what's funny is like I kid you not. It was probably one to one correlation. The guys who were jumping high had perfect power clean technique. There might have been a couple outliers, like you know, like two or three outliers that wasn't the case. But it was without fail. You're beginners, the guys that didn't jump high or maybe even older athletes that were trained, but then have high verticals. Horrible clean form. It was like it was to the point where I was like predicting like I was like, yeah, you could be like, I'm going to be doing a lot of teaching here. Like, yeah, it was like one to one. And it was one of those moments where I was like, there's no excuse. Like, even if it's worth like, let's say worst case, it doesn't transfer as well as we think it does. It says something about the athlete that is willing and coordinated and coordinated enough to learn that movement is also the same type of athlete that's going to obsess over their jump technique or is going to sit there and you know, stay consistent with training because they were able to stay consistent for like teaching themselves is very hard movement. Like it takes discipline to learn it. I think that's that's the other factor though of a lot of coaches is like if they say this, they're likely not actually engaging like I use the clean. I mean, once so you're going to tell me some of these coaches, we could do trap bar jumps or med ball throws. We don't need to clean. Okay. Sure. You really think that you're full of shit, but whatever. But then on top of that, it's an opportunity to learn what type of kid you're dealing with. So if I'm teaching a kid technique, I'm going to know how to talk to the kid like some kids they want me to be more aggressive. So I can be more aggressive with their coaching with how to teach the clean or I'll learn oh, this kid's a little bit quieter. I got to be more logical and more, you know, very precise with and I can learn my communication skills with that individual. And then the kid practices how they learn technique and they start to think about, you know, they might listen to Isaiah talk about how he just went through the how he his best jump is like jump into the ground and those kids are more technically minded. That's also this unwritten thing. It's like, dude, you're missing so many different facets because you're just incapable of getting past the first like six weeks on a really hard. And it shouldn't even be six weeks. It should be like that. Yeah. Yeah, it should be like 30 minutes. If a guy is dedicated, like if a guy is truly dedicated, like in a session or two, you don't look decent. Like at least decent where we're like, okay, like you can go do a workout and clean and clean some weight. Oh, but yeah, it's an excuse. Can you give can you guys give me on this because I think that's pretty clear with clean stuff. Like short contact plios that you use regularly and like what what would the volume be like in one session where it might be like, yo, we're going to hit, you know, in a jump session. Let's say on a Friday, how many jumps, but then also what else would you use other than, what are other plios, the short contact plios that that an athlete could hear here, you know, today and be like, all right, I'm going to I'm going to go do this in my training. So I would say we are very volume of verse when it comes to plios because the jumping itself is so freaking intense and it depends on the level. If you're younger, you can do more. You're older, you can do less. You're healthier, you can do more. If you're less healthy, you're less, you're stronger than that doesn't mean anything for it. Honestly, it doesn't really matter. It's kind of those two variables and two foot jumpers very, very, very sparingly. Do I use them? And the reason why is because they I view them like a like a silver bullet from you, if you ever played 007, you know, the gold gun where it was one shot one kill. That's how I do plios. Like they're so potent. People underestimate how potent they are. They are very, gnarly sensitive to fatigue and your strategy changes on them when you are fatigued. And if you bury guys with plio volume, almost always as a dunking athlete, they will get hurt. Track and field athletes, not necessarily quite the same, but still they oftentimes will get hurt. And that is the number one thing that determines whether they will jump higher or not. Isaiah seen it. Isaiah, if I, what's the number one thing that's going to determine whether you can test the 51 inch vertical next time we go out doing my tendons feel healthy. Can I try without anything heard in because the loads are so freaking high in stress running cycles on the tendon. That specific one that you don't have the luxury of bleeding those in unless you're willing to not do the thing that is the most specific and the most time constrained. You can't do anything. I do want to add some context before you go on. We come from a world where we're doing max approach. We're starting 30 feet out running as fast as you can and then you're dumping as hard as you can. And a dunker will do that 50 to 100 times in a session. Sessions are on the low end probably an hour. They're shorter than that. It's because John's there and he's having me cut it. But like, you know, from from age 16 to 20, they average two and a half hours of just doing that over and over. And I'm trying as well. hard as I can. Like I'm not doing Pogo jumps in place. I'm not doing even a depth jump, 20 reps, then going home. No, it's 100 jumps as fast as I can, run into the ground and jump as hard as you can. And so I just want to add context because it's not like it's helpful. Bio workout. Yeah, it's it is by far the most intense jump. It is by far the most intense plow session you could do. So we have to be creative in how we put those into the sessions because we are so constrained on those sessions. If there's, you know, 50 good training weeks of the year, right? Maybe, you know, whatever the remaining weeks of the year, they're not jumping. That means I have 50 30 to 45 minute opportunities to work on the most important thing. So if they're training, let's say they're training 10 hours a week, right? I only get potentially a valuable time, you know, per week is maybe 10% of that is is of the most important thing. Like if you're a thrower, like you said, you guys can throw a lot. You can throw a lot, a lot, a lot because it's super concentric dominant. There's not as much of a stretch. Or it's like, one it, you can get away with doing it. Maybe you get some elbow pain or wrist pain, but guys build up to it and they can handle it. Where you can drop the intensities. In jumping, you, because you have more space, there's not, you're not constrained on space. You can like some or high jump. You can take as many steps as you want. And you can run as fast as you can. So if I told you hypothetically in a world where shot putters could take infinite space and throw the shot, I don't know, maybe you'd see some different strategies come out of this. And maybe they'd have, you know, some different injuries pop up. But the intensities are so freaking high of these two foot jumps and one foot jumps that you will immediately form knee pain almost if you're not ready. You're immediately going to get knee pain. And that's the number one thing that's determined to jump high and plios being on the same category, right, will end up destroying guys in the, in the tendon and cartilage fashion because you, you have to have that balance. So you could do more and I have done more, but I would say maybe two months of the year for jumping athletes, I'm using plios, which is wild to say out loud. And I think that's helpful. Yeah, I think people are shocked when they hear that. But, but we are doing, but we're jumping every day in volume of bio. We're also doing the same volume of the most intense plio. And if you were to look at like boo and Dan and Mike, you know, they would probably do a plio. You know, they do low volume plios on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then they probably do jumps. Or it gets Tuesday, Thursday. So their plios are going to progress from standing jumps to then, you know, standing, standing, triple jumps, standing long jumps, stuff like that. Then they're going to move into, you know, bounding from a stand and they're going to go to running bounds. You know, and then they're going to do depth jumps. Like it's very simple progression. It doesn't get fancy. You know, you're not going to see alternate late, you know, alternate leg pogo hops. You're not going to see single leg depth jumps into a bound into whatever. Sometimes triple jumpers will do stuff off boxes and stuff. But like, you know, traditionally, you're not going to see that. On the European side of things, I've seen the opposite with high jumpers. I've seen them do a metric sheet load of plio volume. And if they do it at a very young age, they oftentimes, oftentimes can handle it. But the quality of those plios are borderline extensive, you know, but sometimes they may be intensive, but they never really get the shock loading. They are like high volumes of shock loading, unless they're actually jumping. Like it doesn't really cross over that if you're going to use like the old school Veracosiansky definition of it. Whereas we're doing shock loading 50 times in a row with a minute rest once a week all year. And the outcome variable that we're looking at being less sensitive than long jump or high jump, you can get away with doing that. Even in one foot jumps, you're taking maybe four or five steps, right? But for a track guy, you can't do that. Like they are going to struggle to take more than six to eight jumps a week on a given event. Like your multi is, you know, I would imagine they probably do approach work, you know, early in the year and short approach jumps, maybe one day a week for a long jump and maybe one day a week for high jump. And sometimes you might have to alternate that if they're not healthy, you might have to alternate between long jump sessions and high jump sessions or prioritize the session that they need more. So you can get yourself in a little bit of a pickle if you're doing, let's say you had a session where they did 50 long jumps. They're not going to be able to do it. Yeah, they're going to suck. So it is a volume, the nature of our sport is a little bit different than track in that regard. And that is, and same thing with volleyball, like volleyball players shouldn't be doing any playoffs because they're on the court doing, they're the worst. They should be lifting way more. They should be lifting. Exactly. They're some of the most, they're the like biggest proponents of overdoing, pliotype contacts all year in the most egregious volumes and they're always the most injured. They're always jumping so maximum. That's also, um, want to say the one thing I've seen all the best jumpers in the world, two foot jumpers at least is they had a period of time in their life, probably two or three years where they jumped every single day and they were able to take advantage of that before they hit puberty, before they started training like crazy on their outputs got super, super high without fail. And then guys, I've never seen an athlete that mainly did piles at a young age, be, you know, close to a, a 50 inch jumper, like later on. I think DAC is maybe the exception. Yeah, yeah. We're, um, but yeah, that's, uh, that's, I've just, that's just something I've observed. So I got, I got one final question because you guys mentioned the intensity and the, the injury stuff. What is like outside the lifting? What would be isometric-wise like, a ideal timeline of ISOs, like, and, and maybe I'm talking, I'm mostly more so from the health point of yeah, because I don't want to think like over, like I'm almost thinking like overcoming ISOs into a rack. Maybe you're doing two to five seconds. I don't know exactly. If I'm looking at like knee health, what are you doing ISO wise for like a knee or for an ankle as far as injury prevention? Short answer three times a day, 45 seconds each rep between three and five sets. Pretty, that'll get you 70% of the way there. Now if you're jumping a lot and you're doing a lot of stuff like that's the only thing you can do. And that's just the first layer. Heavy slow strength training is one of the next best things. And then you can do like a load management protocol. That's the best way. But if you're only going to add one thing in your training to try to help 10 in health, that would be what it is. You have three tendon load sessions, one in the morning, one before session one in the evening. Isaiah is pretty religiously done at least to his entire career with me to try to maintain health because we're always balanced. I've been saying this a lot. We're always balancing on the edge of a blade with health because we're always pushing this timer. This time I have running every six hours. I do three sets of 45 seconds. And the goal for intensity is like before your leg is shaking. But you typically, if you have pain, you want to go up to like a three or four in pain. That's how hard you want to go. I've created you can do any isometric that loads the tendon. Now I mean, if it's in a kill is you can do standing coverage. You can see it doesn't really matter. Honestly, I think a lot of people get a little nuance with that. More important thing is are you doing it and are you at the correct load? And is it tendon pain? Is it tendon pain? Yeah. So many guys use ISOs that don't have tendon pain and it makes them worse because people feel anterior knee pain and they're like, oh, it's since the tendon pain. Now, can also just be your cartilage just grinded away under there. Every time you hold a 45 second weight, you're just pressing the knee, you know, the kneecap into the groove. You know, I may or may not know that from experience. Yeah, he's done it many times. That's also why we're careful with overcoming ISOs because they can just mush the cartilage into a pulp. If you have five seconds to generate peak force with some of those guys and then that's really pissed off as he is knees before, which oftentimes guys will say, oh, now it feels great. Yeah, if you have tendon pain, but if you have cartilage pain, it's bad. It's worse. Yeah. I tell everybody where they can find you guys where they can get a program so that they can actually stop having a terrible 41-inch vertical dog shit, dog water. I say, you want to do it? No, that's all you. Okay, okay. You can look up THB Strength on YouTube. That's where we literally podcast every day like this. And then THBstrength.com to get programs. Look up John Evans Instagram YouTube. If you want to keep up with our training and then Isaiah Rivera, if you want to keep up my training also on Instagram and YouTube. Absolutely. We'll put links down in the description. Thanks a lot guys. Thank you. Thank you. This was fun. Yeah, it was good. I didn't even realize we were hour and a half in. I know. Well, I was like, I'm sitting here, I would have stopped it. [Music]