How to Get a Booking Agent and Build Your Team in the Music Industry with Emma Banks Booking Agent at CAA

On today's podcast, we sit down with legendary agent Emma Banks, powerhouse who's represented iconic artists and shaped the live music industry from the inside out. Emma shares her unfiltered insights on when new artists really need an agent, the grit it takes to survive in the business, and the critical traits she looks for when signing talent. We dive deep into what it means to be the CEO of your own career, the importance of building the right team, and the untold challenges of touring in today's world. Plus, Emma reveals the must-ask questions for picking an agent and offers straight talk advice for aspiring artists and agents alike. This is an episode packed with industry wisdom you won't hear anywhere else. Insiders, are you ready? Welcome to Mubu TV's Music Business Insider Podcast, where our mission is to educate and power and engage artists and music business professionals who are dedicated to having a successful career in the new music industry. Here are your hosts, Rich Ezra, and Eric Knight. Welcome back Insiders to another episode of the Mubu TV Music Business Insider Podcast, where our mission is to educate and power and engage your music career. On today's episode, we're thrilled to welcome legendary agent Emma Banks. If you've ever wondered when you actually need an agent as an emerging artist, what qualities make an artist stand out for professional representation, or what it really takes to launch a successful career in the modern music industry, you're going to want to hear this one. From building the right team to surviving the demands of touring and navigating the challenges of global red tape, Emma drops insider knowledge learned from years at the forefront of live music. She also gets real about the traits that signal artists that are ready for the next level. Why honesty and hard work matter more than ever? The art of choosing the right agent and how to plan tours on an international scale. All with her signature honesty and humor. Whether you're an artist, aspiring agent, or simply a fan of the music industry, this conversation is packed with insights and wisdom you can't miss, so stay tuned. But first, a word from our sponsor. Hey Insiders, are you an aspiring musician, artist, band, or future music business professional? Looking to take your career to the next level? Well, look no further. At MUBO TV, we offer personalized career counseling and coaching designed specifically for folks like you. Imagine having both of us by your side, guiding you through every step of your music journey. Our sessions are tailored to meet your unique needs, focusing on critical aspects of your music career, such as refining your songs, defining your artist's story, identifying your target audience, and enhancing your social media presence just to name a few. Whether you're just starting out or looking to elevate your existing career, we've got you covered. 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Join us for your free 15-minute discovery call at book.moveuTV.com for a transformative coaching experience that will elevate your music career. That's book.moveuTV.com. Hi, this is Mark Sutherland, the host of the Money Trench, the Music Industry Podcast, and you're listening to the Moveu TV, Music Business Insider Podcast. Welcome back insiders. Today's featured guest is none other than legendary booking agent Emma Banks from CAA. This was a really, really interesting conversation. You know, Eric, we don't have many booking agents, but they are one of the most important components in any artist's career. Absolutely. Any of our listeners who think that you can just have a career today without the live component is fooling themselves, not in 2025. Right. It's, you know, I'm just going to have, you know, music out there. Then you will have a very, very, very, very small career. And, you know, so many great insights from this conversation. I thought, Eric, you know, so many great points. And, of course, you'd expect that from somebody of, you know, Emma Statcher and experience. One of the things that I thought was the most important and valuable component for our listeners was she talked about the element of constant dedication. She, you know, she'd point out that the best artists are always engaging, not only within their craft, but, you know, they were constantly practicing, or they were constantly writing songs, or they were constantly performing, even when offstage, you know, rehearsing. They were, you know, I think she also mentioned the whole element of, like, you know, doing research on specific kinds of venues that they'd like to play. Things that they'd like to do for their show, thinking about their career. You know, if this is to be your career, giving it that kind of dedication, focus, and attention. And I thought that was a really insightful kind of quality. Coming from somebody of her stature. Of her stature and level. Yeah. To see that and to mention that, I thought it's, it's crucial. Yeah. Two quick things. One that I thought was really excellent. It was when to seek an agent. This is a lot of mistakes that people make. You need an agent when agents start approaching you not before. Focus on building that value until people come to you. And I couldn't, you know, say it any better. One of the other things that I thought was great was what she talked about. Work ethic and focus. That a successful artist today works incredibly hard. Is laser focused and is prepared for setbacks and challenges. This is part of that whole roller coaster ride. Guys that we're taking as artists that there's the highest of the highs. And there's the lowest of the lows. The difference is is how well can you manage that and maintain those expectations? I couldn't agree more. You remember when we sat with Clive Davis. And you know, we talked about this. And he said, you know, one of the most important components. I was the store at the end of the interview. He said, you've got to have resiliency. Yes. And there's a man who's had a 60 year career. And by God, there have been a lot of ups. The greatest, greatest legendary culturally impact highs. And the most devastating lows, you know, but he's still come through at all, you know, with that kind of resiliency. And you've got to have that. You've got to have that as an artist today because, you know, and we talk about this a lot on the show on how the expectation of the artist today, that those systems, they're not in place anymore to support. If you're just because you're talented as a writer or as a performer or as a songwriter. And there's all a system in place for you. You've got to build your own career, especially at the beginning. That's the most important part. And all of these points that you were making and the points that I was picking up on from Emma are absolutely crucial to doing that today. And to all of our resilient insiders, sit back, relax, and enjoy our featured conversation with Emma Banks. Emma, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for joining us for a new artist or a new act. At what point do they actually need an agent? Oh, that's quite hard to say. I think they need an agent when an agent comes and tries to sign them, to be honest. And not before that point, I've been speaking to a few people here today. And generally, if you, the artist, are sending out links, music, CDs, whatever, CDs, they're agents, it doesn't it? I was going to say CDs. Wax cylinders, laser discs, laser discs, yeah, mini discs, whatever. If you're, if you're sending them out, if people aren't coming to you, then it's probably too early. You know, there's the odd exception to that, but you have to be exceptional, I think, to send something unsolicited and for someone to listen to it and go, oh my goodness, no one's ever heard this before and it's genius. So I would say you need to be out there, you know, when you're a young developing artist, the only person that really, really cares about you is you. And you can be your own best advocate. And if you can't be bothered, to be honest, at that point, to spend your time. And that doesn't mean you don't have to give up your job, you don't have to give up college. But nobody is a college or in a job 24/7. You take the time that you would spend scrolling on TikTok or, you know, hanging out with your mates or going to a bar, you spend that time looking and going, okay, where's the venue I should be trying to play, you know, trying to play? How can I learn more about how I activate on social media? That's what you should be doing. If you care about you, no one else will ever care about you that much. That's a great answer and thank you for your honesty on that. Emma, thank you so much for joining us on the show. I wanted to ask you, be on their talent and creativity, what personal and professional qualities do you look for in a new artist when considering representation and what traits signal to you that an artist is prepared for the demands of a successful career? I think you have to work incredibly hard. You have to totally have focus and you cannot think it's going to be easy. So I want to see people that if you organize a meeting, they turn up on time. They actually turn up early. They're prepared. They've done their research. They know who they're talking to. They know what they're doing. They're the CEO of their own business at that point in time. So I think if somebody looks like they're going to fall over in a gust of wind and that is not necessarily literal, it's metaphorical. I'm so deep. Then they're not going to be tough enough for this. You know, the music business is tough. I'm not going to go all Hunter S. Thompson because I'll get the quote wrong, but anyone that doesn't know it should look it up. And I think if you cannot be, you know, knocked down and get up and dust yourself off, there's pretty much nobody. And that doesn't matter whether you're in front or behind the microphone to be honest. You know, all of us, I'm sure, have had blows. You know, you thought everything was fine and then it isn't. So you've got to be resilient. You've got to work. You've got to outwork the competition because there's too many people that want this. Everybody wants it. You know, it's never been easier to get your music out, but that's also means that it's then never been more difficult to be heard. And so I think, you know, putting the graft in, being realistic and, you know, don't do this because you want to be famous. There's way easier ways of being famous these days than being a musician. So you do this because you cannot imagine a life where you are not playing music. I think those things to me are important. You know, if someone, if you're talking to someone and you say, you know, when did you last write a song, when did you last rehearse, when did you last play your guitar, you know, or sing, or do whatever it is, drum, whatever it is you're doing. If someone sort of has to think about it, then they're probably not really cut out for this. You know, the great musicians that I know and I represent, they're, you know, it doesn't matter who they are. They've got their hotel rooms got a keyboard or a guitar or something in there. They're doing their vocal warm-ups. They're taking their voice or their fitness really seriously. It just doesn't work like that. You've got to be tougher. Yeah, that was a long answer. No, no, it was a great answer. It was a great answer. It reminded me of that brilliant quote that Mick Jagger said, you just reminded me of it when they asked the question, you know, what's the key, you know, you've been doing this for 50 years. What is the key to successful touring? And he gave an answer that was just brilliant. I've never forgotten it that only somebody with his level of experience could have answered. He said, the key to successful touring for 50 years is knowing what to do with the other 22 hours of the day. Yeah, it's true. It's very true. But only somebody with that kind of experience could actually say something like that, you know, and really have the heft. So, I want to ask you, what are the most important questions that artists or bands need to be asking when selecting an agent to work with? What should they be asking? Is your name Emma Banks? And if not, can you introduce me? Exactly. I've heard she's the best. Yes. What should they be asking? I think, do you know what? A lot of it. An agent is somebody that is proactive and reactive. And if you go and you see somebody and they just lay out a plan for the next two years, it's basically bullshit. It's made up. It's, you know, because no one wants to give you the worst case scenario, everyone gives you the best case scenario. You can't assume that's what's going to happen. And smart people take, they make their plans, but then they also react to what's going on around them. You know, single releases get pulled. You know, wars happen. All kinds of stuff, you know, no one expected COVID. COVID came along. There are artists that thrived during COVID or at least kept going. And there were artists that collapsed in a heap. So, no one, you know, we didn't know. And nobody had experienced it before. Maybe, you know, some people that have lived through SARS in Asia, but most of us in the, you know, West, we're like, oh, this has never happened. What do we do? Everyone was looking to managers and agents and promotes to have a clue, but we were just making it up as we go along. And so I think, you know, actually, if you're looking for an agent, I think you need to find somebody that you trust, that you have an implicit sense of this is the person for me. This is the person that cares about me. This is someone that I can work with. This is someone that I can be honest with. Ideally, they've got a little bit of a track record, and you can sort of see what they've done. But trust me, you know, I mean, I back very early on in my career, I represented Jeff Buckley. And, you know, after, after I got known for doing that, and then he sadly obviously passed away way too young, other people would come and go, well, we really love what you did with Jeff Buckley. And I'd always have to say, well, but he was Jeff Buckley. And no one will ever be like him. There might be people similar or trying to be similar, but Jeff was unique. Very, you know. And, and I think, you know, artists, that's what I look for when I'm looking for someone to sign. I need them to be unique, to have a story, to be committed, all of those things. And so, for me, meeting a new client is as much about just, it's a personality thing. So, you know, I mean, obviously make sure that they've got someone that does their accounts, and they're going to get you paid. There's a few obvious bits and pieces, but I don't think there's a question, you know, how are you going to get me to sell out Madison Square Garden? How am I going to, you know, headline Glastonbury Festival? If you're meant to do that, a good agent will get you there. And, you know, there's a thousand ways of doing this. So, I think finding somebody that you connect with on every level is the most important thing. I actually saw Jeff Buckley play. I'm from Florida, and I saw him in Miami Beach at the Steven Talkhouse in 1994, and it was a life altering experience when I saw him. Must have been, I don't know, 7,500 people in the room. It was life altering. I bet if you went around there now, there'd be about 75,000 people that said they were there. I have the actual, I have the actual ticket stub. It was something else. I don't for a minute think you were. Yeah, it was unbelievable. The only reason why is when you said Jeff Buckley, because I'm just such a huge fan of his, how important Emma is an artist's team when you're considering signing them? Oh, it's important. It's very important. I would rather have no team than a team I dislike. And this comes down again to that personal relationship that you have. So if you can't work with somebody, if you can't be honest with somebody, because there's as much bad news as there is good news most of the time. And if people every time you say we didn't get that supports lot, you're not going to get on that festival. If you get that and they like to go off in a half, that's no relationship. You can't work business like that. That's not realistic. So I think for me, having a great team, manager, press, label, whoever it might be, really important, really crucial. But I think if you don't have everyone in place, just get the right people. You know, you can, you can build a team relatively slowly as well. They just need to be 100 percent committed. You know, I think sometimes I look and go, you're one manager and this appears to be the 17th act you're managing. How can you do that? How are there enough hours in the day? You know, and management's a tough gig. Really tough gig. Because if you're going to do it properly, you have to spend time with your artist and there's so much to do before you make any money. So if you've got a good manager and they've committed to an artist, you've got to think they've seen something that's really special. Hey insiders, we hope that you've been enjoying our featured conversation. Stay tuned because we've got so much value coming your way. But before we dive back in, a word from our sponsor. Hey Eric, as an artist, what do you find to the most challenging aspects to a music career, especially when you're starting out? Well, I think one of the first things is just trying to get the direction of who you are as an artist, where you want to go, where you want to be. And you know, we've talked about it on the show a lot. Who is your target audience? Who you are? Who what do you stand for? What do you believe in? What do you think would resonate with an audience? And so those are some of the things that I would feel being a new artist. Obviously, what I know now is different because I know these things. But for people that are out there like our audience that don't necessarily any direction to go would be the first things that I would start off with. And having the songs that incorporate those elements that you're speaking of into it. That's so important today. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we started Mooboo TV and why we started this new consulting service that we're offering to all of our insiders out there because that is another one of the big things. I mean, that's is the big thing is like having the great songs. That's what it really starts off. Our friend Don Greerson always said it always starts with a great song. So that's probably besides putting together what your audience and what your target audience is is the single most important thing. Where are your songs at currently today? Are you collaborating with people? Are you trying to go out to networking events where you can connect with other songwriters and stuff like that? Yeah. And what are your strengths exactly? Are you a strong lyric writer? Are you a strong melody writer? Are you a strong musician, a player? And it's really important to get really strong clarity on those issues before proceeding. I totally agree, Rich. And with our consulting services, we offer a myriad of different packages that we've made it super affordable for everybody. So if you guys are interested out there and connecting with us on a coaching call, you can visit book.mubuTV.com and start off with a free of 15 minute discovery call. Well, yeah, absolutely. There we start with an initial 15 minute call where we can get a sense of who you are. What are the issues that you specifically have and want to work on? Exactly. And we can go from there. Absolutely. Yeah. And we tailor everything to your needs. It's not like a cookie cutter thing. We kind of really want to get to know who you are as an artist. Where you at today, what's the snapshot of you as an artist today and then start trying to craft something that's tailor made for you? So again, if you're interested, visit us at book.mubuTV.com for your 15 minute discovery call. Hi, this is Kim Frankovich, executive vice president of worldwide Aina from Concord Music Publishing. Are you an insider? I am. Subscribe now. Very, very true. Given your experience, that's quite extensive as an agent, what are the most critical hurdles that new artists often encounter when they begin touring? And how can they best prepare for the demands of the road as a new artist? I mean, there are a lot of hurdles, but that doesn't mean that anything is insurmountable. So I think there's different levels. You've obviously got the financial hurdles, which more and more become an issue for everybody because a small club gig or a support slot doesn't pay you enough to cover your costs. Yeah, unless you literally everyone's working for free and you play the gig round the corner from where you live, it's very hard. Gas, everything is so expensive. Costs, yeah. The costs are high. So I think just planning ahead and working at how you're going to afford to do things. And occasionally you can have to say no to things. So it's about being really smart and strategic about what you say yes to. If you're lucky enough to have a record label and they're going to pay tour support for you, that is not an infinite number. And if you spend all of it too early, then when you really need it, when you've got a couple of songs that have connected, but you're still the support act, maybe you're the support act on an arena show or a big headline show, it's you're still not going to get paid enough to break it even. And maybe yeah, you get some good merch sales and you can just about cobble it together. But just think about when you're spending money as to, you know, do we just need to hold on a little bit, you know, how you want to return on investment, you know, an ROI, it sounds horrible to start talking about ROI's and KPIs and that kind of thing. And it's only recently I've learnt these words so I'm just showing off now that I know them. But I think at some point, if you've got a bucket of money, it looks like a lot and it runs out very quickly. So I think doing that, it's also about making sure, as you said earlier, you know, it's not about the two hours on stage or if you're new and developing artist, probably the 40 minutes, 35 minutes on stage, it's what you do with the rest of the time. And, you know, there's obviously when you're young or even if you're not that young, but this is new world and everyone's trying to be your friend and the drinks free. Just remember, you've got to get up in the morning, you've got to keep it together. It's so easy to get sick. If you get sick, then you don't get paid, you miss an opportunity. You know, you might be sick and that's the Madison Square Garden gig you miss. It's so I think looking after your mental and physical health and making sure you've got people around you that will also help you with that is really important. You know, I mean, when I have conversations with artists, when we're planning and looking at planning a year, 18 months and again, as I said, you don't know exactly what's going to happen. The bigger the artist, the more established it is, the easier it is to have an idea because you've got to a point. But I always think it's really important that we go, okay, where's a two-week break within this? Where we're not going to start encroaching on it. We're not going to have to do a TV show and someone can actually go on holiday with their family, with their friends. Remete their partner. All of that stuff because being on the road is a very sort of unreal situation. So, you know, mental fitness, physical fitness, making sure that you enjoy yourself as well, because it may never get better than today. So, don't constantly be thinking, oh, if only I did this, you know, enjoy the show. However many, if there's 10 people in front of you or 10,000 or 100,000, they're there to see you. They want to see you. They, you know, they're your fans. Give them the best show you possibly can. That's, yeah, I've probably gone slightly off topic. No, not at all. I have a sub-question for you. And this wasn't even in the lineup of questions, but could you take us through what it takes? You talked about 18 months to plan a tour. Can you just walk us through that? Like, what is that like when you have a tour with whatever band, Red Hot Chili Birds, whoever it happens to be, what goes into that? How many people are involved with all of that? I mean, that's a massive undertaking I would assume. It is. And I think what happens now more than ever is you have to start planning for it so much further in advance. You know, if you're looking right now at that kind of level of a tour, you know, arenas and above. Arenas festival headlines, stadium shows, big greenfield sites, those are, they're already booked for next year. So, you're often actually starting to plan your big tour, 18 months, two years in advance of its starting. Just to get the confirmations from the venues, to get the holds on the venue. The commitments, yeah, yeah. That's just starting at that level. So, starting at that level, you know, if you're booking a little club tour, you can do it far later. Might not be perfect routing, but you'll be able to do it. So, you know, the first thing is, you know, why are you doing the tour? Is it a greatest hits and there's no release around it and you just do it when it works? Or do you have a new album? I don't know if I can even, if I'm supposed to say album anymore. How dare you say album on the show? A new body of work. A new body of work. A new body of work, which of course will be sold on vinyl. So that. Bank of set as well too. Exactly. Which then becomes an album. But, you know, so you start working out when strategically, are we going to start this tour? When, you know, where should we go in each for each market? So, you've got a record label involvement, assuming you have a record label, management, and the artist may have a say, you know, the artist may go, my kid's going to turn 12, or there's a bar mitz for or whatever, I cannot be away at that time. And these are real things that we deal with. So, you schedule around that? We can, you know, if we know, now obviously, again, we've just discussed, we're scheduling a long way in advance. But if you know something's happening, we'll try and make that work. And we will then, I think, plot out, you know, where do we need to start? Where, I mean, I had a client recently when we were looking at how we were going to schedule their tour. We looked initially at starting in Canada, and then they were like, no, I don't want to start in the cold. I need to start in the war. That will be easier for me, for my voice, for how I feel. So, we ended up starting the tour at the start of the year in Australia, because you get the weather, they were able to rehearse there. Things like this, sometimes you just really hope people are going to tell you what they want as well. And, you know, because if you don't, if as an artist, you don't verbalise what it is you need and what you want, then we're not mind readers. And we pick it up and the longer you work with someone, the more you understand the, sort of, the nuances of their touring and the rhythm that they need to be in. So, we would then, yeah, literally speak to the promoters, you know, sometimes it's easy and we know exactly where to go, other times we'll want to get a little bit of feedback from them as to what they think. And then it's about rooting it together, deciding how long the gaps are in between, you know, we're talking to the production managers, you know, often it's hard when you're trying to root a tour together, but you don't know what the production is going to be. And, you know, six months beforehand, the artist suddenly decides they want to do it in the round, but you're playing a whole load of venues that you can't play in the round. So, you're scrambling trying to move, you know, the arena from here to there because it's not the right place now for the show that they want to do. But, you know, so the production team, the sooner you can have a production team involved, the better because we can just be more accurate with how we then get the shows costed, you know, are we going to need 40 Riggers and 300 Crew War? Are we going to, you know, is there nothing flying everything's just on the ground? It's very rare, you don't need any Riggers. So, you're basically talking to pretty much everybody. Wow. And having to be fluid at every time, you have a roadmap, but you've got to be constantly changing and adjusting. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, in your mind, you're going, "Okay, this artist is likely to, you know, need to be at the Grammys or the Brits or the, you know, N.R.J. Awards or the Aries in Australia." So, again, trying to find those dates out, you know, can be really difficult with things that move around and shows that are, you know, on TV, but trying to think of every eventuality so that then when the show, when the tour is announced, and we're selling tickets, and we're often selling tickets, you know, nine months through a year in advance, you know, that commitment that you make to your fan, that you are turning up on that Tuesday to play that show. You know, a lot of people, if they're travelling, they're buying flights at that point, they're buying hotels at that point, and most people, they're not getting, you know, changeable flights and refundable hotels. So, if you suddenly then go, "Oh no, I've just remembered it's Auntie Margaret's birthday. I can't do it." It's not just, oh, we can reschedule it, and you fund it. You've actually got a whole load of costs that your fans, the people you should care about the most, are going to get hit with. So, it is, it's, I mean, I hate committing to anything longer than about five minutes in advance, which you guys know. Just in case, yeah. But no, you, you have an interesting way, and then it's, that one has to commit what they're going to be doing for, you know, a year, two years in advance, right? Yeah, 20, 25, I have to be committed to that tour in 20, 27, I'm saying, and the dates and lock it down, and this is when I'm going to be on Tuesday, April, 20, 20, this is where I'm going to be, and this is where I'm going to be playing. Yeah, and that's contracted now. And that's contracted. And that's, I think, mentally. Yeah. That's a big thing to handle. Yes. You know, you, you can't walk away from that commitment. And obviously, you know, people get sick, things happen. Yeah. And I think audiences are very understanding and caring, so long as it doesn't happen often, when it's true. Right. If you have a problem, then you just need to be authentic, and you need to be honest with your fans. Yes. I remember that. Yeah. Then, you know, no one can, no one can foresee something. I remember the, well, I guess they called it a disaster, but it, it, it, it happened. The, the, the, the whole situation when, when Adele cancelled that whole run. Yeah. Of, it was in the same things that you were speaking about. Tickets, commitments, hotels, flights, because that was the only thing she was doing for those five months, or whatever, four months, and it all got cancelled. Initially, the first round of that, it was, it was awful. No, it was awful. It was awful for the fans. It was awful for her. Yeah. You know, your heart broke for her. Yeah. And, and quite clearly, you know, she took it really seriously, and she's got great management and a great team around her, who wouldn't have done that lightly. No. And I think it just shows how, however much time you have, putting shows together as well, and having that vision, you know, you can't start on anything that early, because you can't have all those people on the payroll for that long for a start. So there's, there's a lot that can go wrong. And, you know, when you're working, even at that very top level with some of the top people in the business, there can still be things that, that will happen the way you want them to. This is a perfect segue to the next question, which is about the fan. As an experienced agent, what do you think new artists need to understand about fan engagement in this evolving landscape? I think they need to understand that fans, the most important thing in your life, that you have to treat them with respect, that you have to actually, you don't have to put it all out there. I mean, it's an interesting one and I go back to, you know, I'm old, so I go back to before social media, before everybody knew what, you know, what you had for breakfast. And that worked pretty well for certain people. I think you need to decide what you are and you either have to give a lot, or you probably have to almost give nothing and be in anigma. I don't know whether it works in the middle ground, to be honest. And I'm no social media expert, so there's probably people listening to this, shaking their heads and throwing, throwing, I don't know, something at their phone or whatever they're listening on. But that's how I feel about it. I think you have to be able to, you know, particularly for probably younger and developing artists, have a dialogue with your fans, you sound so idiotic, but you are carrying them with you, you're taking them with you, and it needs to be authentic. And don't keep saying you love them if you don't really know them, you care about them, they're important. They're part of, they're what's made you, who you are, and where you are. And so it's about honesty. I think honesty and integrity is, they're much underrated and certainly much underused just in the world today, full stop, regardless of what we're talking about. You have spoken about the increased complexity of touring, especially with driving laws and logistics. What advice would you give to new artists on how to navigate the growing red tape that comes with touring across different countries and regions? I think you have to, I mean, A, take some responsibility yourself and maybe, you know, look these things up. I think managers, tall managers, agents have a responsibility to make sure that they're actually doing the right thing and that they know the relevant rules and regulations. If you're a new manager or if you're an inexperienced tall manager, there are so many groups now that you can join. So whether it's the MMF, the music managers forum, of which there are, you know, chapters in every country pretty much. You know, I mean, it's amazing, I was talking to Paul Pacifico in Saudi Arabia the other day, they're looking to start an MMF in Saudi. Sure. It's a growing region. It's a growing region and you need those, you know, all the domestic artists need to have that help and the MMF organizations are all, I think, so useful talking to each other. So if you don't know what's going on, speak to them. There's a whole load of groups on Facebook and stuff for tall managers. There's other touring organizations. So if you haven't ever done it and, you know, maybe you haven't, then reach out, ask because just thinking you know how to do it, you don't. I mean, there's stuff that I probably don't know, that I should know. And you've been at this a long time and you're on the front lines of it every day. But you know, rules keep changing constantly, what's acceptable in one country isn't acceptable in another country. So, you know, think carefully before you commit. And as I say, join, there's so much help out there if you look for it. Don't ever be, you know, embarrassed to say, I don't know what I'm doing here. How should I deal with it? And if you've got an agent, ask them. Emma, throughout your life, have there been any books or films that you have found to be particularly inspiring, professionally speaking that you can recommend to our audience? Obviously, entourage is basically a documentary. Yes. I've, I've learned everything from Ari Gold. From Ari Gold, yes. And that's really all I have to say on the subject. Okay. All right. No, I mean, do you know what? I bought years ago, I bought the the Michael Ovitz book, which I think is called Ovitz. Yes. It's out of print now. It was the first one. And that I found really interesting. I went out and bought the art of war because apparently he based everything on that. I didn't get very far through it. I thought it was way too complicated. I didn't understand any of the analogies. So that was the end of that. I think I've still got the book. What else? No, I mean, I can't, I can't say there's anything in particular, but I know I will have seen things, heard things, gone to conferences, listened to people. I said to someone a little bit earlier, my brother says this to my nephew, who's 12. He's got two ears and one mouth. Use them in that ratio. Just listening. You know, sitting in a production office and listen, sit in a conference and listen, listen to, you know, there's so many great podcasts. There's so many ways to find stuff out. I can't think of a film or anything that I did. I mean, that this business of music book is also really interesting. And I think, you know, we all have our little lane and something like that that covers off different areas, you know, I would not pass an exam on copyright law or, you know, the best record deal that you can get. I know my thing and when I don't know it, I'll go and ask someone. What advice would you have for someone who wants to pursue a career as an agent today? It's not easy for sure. Again, I think if you want to do, if you want to do anything, what you should try and do is actually go and do it. And that doesn't mean you have to be booking the Red Hot Chili Peppers or Harry Styles. It means that as a student or a person at school or whatever, find the local band and ask them if they need some help and go and help them. And I'm always so impressed when I look at, you know, resumes by people and they've actually gone and done it. And to me, that shows that they're the kind of self-starting entrepreneurial person that you need to be to be an agent because nobody hands it all to you. You might be given, you know, an act to work on, but ultimately you have to, you know, you have to then get up in the morning and start and go, okay, what am I going to do? How do I do this? Meet people. So I think that's really important. You know, I think most of the major agencies have in turn programs and you're never too old to apply. Let's remember that as well. You don't have to be straight out of school or straight out of college to do that. Obviously it's hard once you've established yourself in another line of work to give it up. But I mean, there's a lot of people at CAA across multiple departments that have been lawyers or many other things in, you know, in the real world and have decided that their, you know, their calling is to be a talent agent, a music agent, and they've given it all up and taken a massive salary decrease because just when you start, the company's giving you more than you're giving it, probably. And it takes a long time. It takes a long time to get good. And I think probably at least 10 years before you really know. And to me, a good agent is really intuitive. So, you know, data is obviously important in this day and age, but data can give you very false readings. It can tell you something that isn't actually true. And you need to understand how each market works. So, you know, to understand that your enormous streaming numbers in Manila or Jakarta probably don't mean that you're the biggest actor in the world there. You know, there used to be a far more direct correlation and I started between the amount of albums you had sold and the amount of tickets you had sold. And that's no longer the case. But, so I've digressed slightly. But no, I think if you want to be an agent as they go and do it, you don't, there are many, many agencies, many talent agencies, many music agencies, you don't have to just look at the big ones. And, you know, if you show that you're good, if you're out there and you're at a small agency and you have aspiration to be at a bigger agency, then by doing really good work, by finding young talent and nurturing it, even if it keeps getting snapped away from you by a bigger agency. And unfortunately, that is something that happens. After a little while, people notice it and they go, you know what, that person's really good. They've been on that before anybody else. They're finding the talent, they're able to wangle their way onto those festivals in a way that agents that have bigger rosters, that bigger companies with more clout, so to speak, can't. So, I think you just have to do it with everything, you know, every journey just takes one step to start. Emma, what advice would you offer for serious artists who are committed to building a career in music today? What would you tell them? I would tell them that not everyone is a winner, that if you, you know, I don't know what a serious artist is, because what's an unserious artist? But I think if you, if you really want to do it, you just have to, you have to go and do it. You, to build your career, you have to be prepared to suffer, to give up a lot. I'd now sound like the woman from fame. Right here's where you say, fame costs. But it does. I mean, as I think I've said already, don't do it because you want to be famous. Do it because you can't imagine anything else. And you have to outwork everybody. You have to, you know, you don't get a lot of sleep sometimes. And you have to keep smiling. People will remember if you are a not nice person. People will take that into account. People will take that into account. And you know, when everything's going well, people look up, you know, they will handle a lot. They will put up with all of your rubbish. But as soon as there's a stumble, as soon as there's a little bit of, you know, a moment where the single didn't connect or you didn't pull the people, they will be onto the next person. If you have behaved well and worked hard and done everything you can, you'll get a second chance. So just remember that, you know, you're no better than anybody else. The person, the security guy that is so irritating and they asked you for your pass, is only doing that because they're trying to look after you. So I think remembering that, you know, as I say, and I've think I've repeated it now, I didn't for an item. But being respectful, treating people the way that you would want to be treated, everybody remembers it. And the clients that I have that make everyone feel good at the end. And that's not just the audience, but it's the guy that is the last one holding the door when you go and get in the limo or on the tour bus. And you just say thank you, you smile and you say thank you. And it doesn't matter whether you've had the worst gig ever, they will remember, you know, Maya Angelou said they won't remember what you said. Remember how you made them feel. Absolutely. Emma, we want to thank you so much for taking the time to do this. This has been really insightful and wonderful. And we are very, very grateful that you came to do it. It's a pleasure. Nice to see you guys. Thank you. Thanks. Man, what great insight. Yeah. Really, really wonderful conversation. And from somebody who knows the business really, really well, you know, I thought one of the most interesting things that she talked about was the importance of unique story. And we've spoken about this before on the show. The whole element, you know, when she said, I look for those who are unique, have a story and are committed. It's as much about personality as it is talent. So, you know, that's an important component. It's like, this is a whole package, you know, and you've spoken about that element of narrative and performance and that it's, it's more than just songs. It's more than just stagecraft. It's more, it's, it's more than just narrative. It's a whole package and she got into that with regards to, you know, some of the most successful acts that she's worked with. And also, the fact that that's what she looks for. Yeah. And also one of the other things that I love what she said was taking initiative as a developing artist. And, you know, she said, and I quote, you can be your own best advocate. If you can't be bothered at that point to spend your time, nobody is at college or in a job 24 or seven, take the time to look for venues, work on social media and invest in yourself. Again, we have talked about this ad nauseam at this point. But all the things that you have to be doing, it's the whole talk about what you said about building the narrative, building that universe that you are trying to build. And so these are things that it's a constant, you know, work in progress. It's not something that you have to have all fleshed out in one afternoon, but it is something that you have to be constantly developing. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. This is a, you know, this is a marathon. This is a career. Right. This is a life. And if you don't have that kind of understanding of it, you'll never survive the whole journey. It's not an event of like, oh, God, I'm God. That's so right. It doesn't work like that. No career of anyone. Beyoncé's career doesn't work like that. Nobody's career works like that. It's constant of evolution, constant evolution, and it's an ongoing process that continually evolves and you have to be prepared for that. Hey insiders, thanks so much for tuning into this episode. We really appreciate it to get show notes, links, and everything that was mentioned during this interview, head on over to our official website at mubuTV.com/podcast/show notes. If you're enjoying the content and what we're doing here on the show, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts from. And don't forget to rate and review our show at iTunes. Five star reviews are always welcome and help to ensure that our podcast stands out on the top rated and new and noteworthy charts on iTunes in our space. You can also find us at social media at Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter, X, all ending with the handle mubuTV, which is spelled M-U-B-U-TV. Don't forget to catch our flagship show, the MubuTV Music Business Insider Video Series, airing every week on YouTube at youtube.com/mubuTV. This show was produced and created by Rich Ezra and Eric Knight, seen music by Disciples of Babylon and be sure to tune in next week for another episode of the MubuTV Music Business Insider Podcast.