How to Finish What You Start, with Chris Bailey

Starting is often a lot easier than finishing. Our mindsets and our tactics can make a big difference in how far we really go. In this episode, the best ways to finish what we begin. This is Coaching for Leaders, Episode 793. Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential. Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I'm your host, Dave Stahovjak. Leaders aren't born, they're made. And this weekly show helps leaders thrive at key and flexion points. The reality of leadership is that it is broad. What that means is, for a lot of us, is there's always things we're working on. There's always things we're trying to get better at. There are always things we're trying to move on. Some of those things we get started on, and we're super excited about, and we keep going. And there's also a lot of things that even though we know it's good for us, even though we see the benefits, even though we've got the plan intellectually, once we start it sometimes hard to keep going. Today, a conversation on how we can finish what we start by being a bit more intentional and using some really helpful tactics that are practical in a way that keep us moving not only for ourselves but for our teams. I'm super excited to welcome Chris Bailey to the show. Chris is an author and lecturer who explores the science behind living a more productive and intentional life. He has written hundreds of articles on the subject and is the best-selling author of the productivity project, hyperfocus, and how to calm your mind. His newest book is intentional how to finish what you start. Chris, a pleasure. Welcome to the show. Dave, my Polish friend, how are you? I am lovely. I am lovely. I'm a fellow Polish. I'm a fellow Polish friend. Nice to chat with you. We are. Yeah, nice to chat with you. I loved the book and thinking about this, finishing what we start because we are so good at starting things, aren't we? Most of us, and yet it's the finishing thing that we get in trouble with a lot, isn't it? It's kind of like that saying that, and I find intentionality. Well, honestly, one of the most beautiful topics in the world, I think it's what makes us human on a lot of different levels. But then we have these sayings that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and stuff like that. And so it makes a question, really, what gives? We have these intentions that, like you're saying, we follow through with, and then we have the others that just they get swept away because we're in the fray of our daily life or they're ugly things that we just have to do, that we kind of kick down the street like it's the tin can to another day. And so that becomes the art of productivity, is what it's easy to accomplish things that we have a deadline for. Deadlines are an incredible way to add structure and a framework to the things that we want to accomplish. It's easy to accomplish the things that we care about. You know, there's a lot of books on habits too. People don't need help make in habits like eating a chocolate bar every day or something or watching more TV. They need habits for the ugly stuff and intentionality can help us get there too. So it's really this fascinating topic because intention is always what's behind what we follow through with, but we don't always follow through with every intention. You write on this, the strength of an intention is a function of our desire minus our aversion. Every single task has an amount of both. Tell me more about that. Well, they fluctuate over time too, don't they? And it is an interesting thing with every task, every project, every commitment that we have. There are these two ingredients that attract us to something and repel us away from that same thing, desire and aversion. So you think about any in the book I call it our timeline of goal attainment. So across our timeline of goal attainment for any goal that we want to achieve, our desire is often way higher at the beginning than it is closer to the end of us. If you're going on a trip to Spain and one of your life long ambitions has been to learn Spanish and you've kicked it down the the street to a later day constantly throughout your life, probably right after you book the tickets, your desire is going to be through the roof, right? When you set that goal again, when you set that resolution again, but then it fades. It tapers down into this aversion, which is just this ugly feeling that we have when it comes to doing certain tasks in our work based on attributes that they can have. So it's this interesting kind of calculus where it's desire, minus aversion that creates our overall will to want to do something at any moment over that timeline of goal. But the desire is usually high right at the beginning and then it just often plummets like with the Spanish example. Yeah, I recall when BJ Fogg was on the show years ago, he had this great point of that our we overestimate our future motivation almost all of us. Like we think, okay, I'm going to start on this and I'm going to keep that motivation level high throughout the length of the goal, the task, whatever it is that we're doing. And it's just almost never true to your point that getting comfortable with the reality that you're going to start something and you're going to be really excited about it for four days or a week or two or whatever it is. And there's going to be that inevitable dip. And I think the key question is like, all right, when you get to that, what do you do? Right? Like that's really kind of the hack on this. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think you start by dissecting just why is something so aversive. So, and then this was this was the interesting thing in digging into the science behind just how a version works and what is it even? So it's this ugly feeling that we experience. But the fascinating thing to me is it's possible to dissect it a little bit, someone where there's certain triggers that a task can have that make it more aversive to us. And every single one of us, our relationship is different for every single task, right? You might love doing your taxes. I don't know you that intimately Dave, but maybe you do. Let's say, some people, yeah, well, some people get pleasure from pain, I suppose. But, you know, so we all relate differently. But there's certain triggers that a task can have that make us more avers to it and make us more likely to procrastinate on it, which is when something's boring. So using, at least carry on with the using our doing our taxes example. So it's boring, right? The process is boring. The second trigger of the six is when something's frustrating. So the process of doing is just tedious. It's painful. You know, we hit all these little blocks and stuff along the way. The third is whether it's unpleasant. So whether we appraise a task to be unpleasant. Fourth is when something is far away in the future. So yeah, I think a lot more people will agree to run a marathon two years from now versus six months from now, even though the training timeline might be comparable in six months ahead of time. The structure is when, you know, touched on it a little bit, but when there's no clear path to doing something that makes something far more aversive, which, and that's a nice one, when something's unstructured and we find we put it off because of that, it's much easier to tinker with that one a little bit. And the last trigger is when something's meaningless. And so that means it's misaligned to what we value. So yeah, there's these 12 fundamental human values that we all have in different amounts from self-direction to pleasure to security to universalism, you know, protecting people in nature. And the more misaligned something is with what we actually deeply care about on that fundamental human level, the more likely we are to put it off. So boring, frustrating, unpleasant, far away, unstructured and meaningless, like our taxes, you can go down the list and see that most of these, most of these are true for them. Or bookkeeping, you know, pick your example, that closet that you need to clean up or reno in the basement, whatever. And you can cross reference the things that you're putting off in your life and your work, the projects that are ugly as for you. And you'll see that most of them have the, well, all of them when you find them aversive on some level, has some combination of these six triggers in different amounts. You write, the more we activate the logical centers in our brain as we pursue our goals, the less aversive we find them, which makes us less likely to procrastinate on them. And I was thinking about that in the context of what you just said that there's some really wonderful invitations you make on just the tactical ways to approach this in the book. And you started hitting on a couple of them already. And I was thinking about that first, that first characteristic you mentioned, things that are boring. And there's some really fun ways that we can actually reframe just how we're thinking about through gamification, through creating deadlines and timers and like all kinds of stuff. Tell me a little more. And like, when you see people do that well and kind of trick themselves a little bit into making something way more interesting, what does that look like? Yeah. Well, I think so often our work isn't fun enough. And this seems like weird productivity advice to give. But if you find something isn't fun in your day, do something about it. it. Can you, can you have, can you do some, some taxes or something over a glass of wine or two and double check your work the next day? Could you go to a coffee shop and, and, and you know, have a wonderful, well, my, my biggest thing is food, as you can probably tell. Could, could you put, you know, a dollar in a frivolous spending account for every minute you spend doing something that you find just so ugly, but that you've wanted to do for a long time, make it fun for yourself, whether it's through a bribe or by making it more pleasurable in the moment, and it seems so simple, the, the advice, but I don't think we invest in, in self kindness enough with productivity. So we think, okay, doing our taxes is always this slog and so I'm just going to have to get through it. But do you, do they have to be a slog? Could you, could you find some way to, to gamify it for yourself? So the boredom trigger I find really interesting just because you find something boring doesn't mean that it has to be that way. Yeah, there's almost always a way to make something more interesting and fun. And as you were saying that I was thinking Bonnie and I have been working a little project with our kids this summer were taking a trip toward the end of the summer. And both because we're working on just some good goal setting financial events with the kids, but also our budget's a little tighter this year than it was in past years. We decided to, hey, we're going to save a thousand dollars toward this trip at the end of the summer. And we set up a little tracking sheet in the kitchen and there's a little, there's a little tile like 25 dollar increments of tiles. And we've gotten all of us involved like, hey, if we choose to not go out for dinner or if we choose to not go to the movies or if we choose to do something that we would normally do or the kids doing a project around the house that isn't part of their normal responsibilities like everyone can contribute to getting a tile on that board. And it has been really fun to see the dynamic change around the house just in the last few weeks of our son deciding like, hey, let's actually his idea like let's not go see the movie we're planning to go see let's stay home and stream it because it just came out on streaming and let's save that money and get a tile on our board. And it's really interesting how like both of our kids have said, hey, this is actually pretty easy. Like when you break it down and it's actually fun and something that normally is just awful when you think about like, oh, I'm trying to like budget better. That just does not sound fun to anyone. And yet by by framing it as a game and making it visual, let's change the dynamic of the conversation our house and it's actually been really, really fun. And isn't it interesting? Just like how a small change like that one, it's a Chris, it's a silly eight and a half by 11 sheet that I chat GPT make and do the grab a son. It took 10 minutes. But how much that changed the dynamic of everything? Yeah. And what that naps on top of the research too, where one of the best ways to make a goal less ugly, less averse is to make it about other people involve other people too. So I'm sure if you just had your own spreadsheet or you and your wife had one and you're okay, how do we say it's crimp and save? What do we cancel? What do we, what do we do here to get to the grand? That's way less fun. It's way less involved. It's way less engaging than being with other people and doing a goal alongside other people. And that maps on top of the meaning component of it all too, where we talk about the 12 values, six of those 12 values are centered around other people. And values are this driving, they sound like a mushy topic a lot of the time. I'm going to be honest with you. But there is research behind the values that we all share. And it shows that half of what motivates us, which is our values, involve other people. They're things like serving other people through benevolence or universalism as one I mentioned, feeling secure with other people. Right. And so it becomes as beautifully expression of what truly motivates us, which is these values through our everyday actions when we make them about other people. So it's a wonderful shortcut. And we chat about how procrastination is this purely emotional visceral reaction to something that we don't want to do. And so firing up the logical part of our brain can be a wonderful strategy. Yeah. So on that, I think it's really, it's, it's really interesting thinking about it, being about others. And I think there's an example you talk about in the book of a lot of times we set a goal or habit of like, Hey, I want to read more. I want to read 10 pages a day or whatever. And there's a lot of folks in our community. In fact, a lot of the leaders who come into our academy say, Hey, I actually want to read and consume more information, because I know there's tons of material out there that I should be getting into. And I've got the stacks of books and all that. And one really, I think need example of this is just how you think about what you're doing and making it about others. So rather than just saying, Hey, I want to read more. It's, I want to read more because I want to be a better mentor. I want to be a better leader for my employees. Like it's not that you're tactically changing what you're doing. You're still setting a goal to read, but you're, you're actually framing it around a value around something that's helpful for others. And there's just something really powerful about framing it that way, isn't it? Oh, yeah, it's so true. And it's interesting. The extent to which the frame of a goal affects our motivation and our drive to follow through with something. So I'm sure a lot of people listening to this are familiar with the whole growth mindset. Seeing these obstacles, these challenges is not really roadblocks and things that we need to get angry about, but almost things that can be teachers for us and that we can learn from. And that goes to the frustration component of procrastination where one of the most helpful strategies for overcoming the frustration we have to certain things is seeing things as a learning goal rather than a performance goal. And so to use the marathon example, the performance goal will be, I want to run this marathon in this amount of time where as a learning goal might be, okay, I want to learn about advanced running and pacing techniques so that I can lower my time overall. So, you know, one is a performance based goal, which is it's this pass or fail essentially when it comes to a goal that we have. And the other is this learning goal. Where's, okay, I want to devour everything I can about this topic so I can learn and I can integrate those things into this goal that I'm pursuing. And the interesting thing is the actions that you take under both goals, they might be basically the exact same. You might end up going into those pacing techniques with performance goal anyway, but a learning goal, just like a growth mindset, the growth mindset, the opposite side of the same coin, it absorbs the frustration that we have to following through a certain thing. So if you find that frustration is something that comes up with your list of things that you're procrastinating on, that is something that can be incredibly helpful. And another tactic to pair that with is is making a list of everything that you're procrastinating on in your life, in your work. And so list every possible thing that you can think if there's an email that's like three weeks old at the bottom of your inbox that just makes you feel, it makes you tense up, right? Email apnea is a real phenomenon. Sometimes our breathing changes when we just get exposed to certain messages from certain people. But if you make a list of everything from that one email to that massive project that you keep putting off for that difficult conversation that you want, you really ought to be having. Or that basement closet that you want to clean. And then list the costs of putting these various things off because that's the fascinating thing that we're just chatting about. This procrastination phenomenon is purely emotional. It's purely visceral. There's no logic embedded within the phenomenon of procrastination whatsoever. It's purely emotional. But by listing the costs of doing something and logically going through your work, your life to make this procrastination list, you actually fire up the logical part of your brain, which can overcome that emotional response in your brain. Because when we consider putting something off to go into the neuroscience on it a little bit, essentially the logical regions of our brain, the activation in them go way down when we consider procrastinating. And the emotional regions go way up. And so they almost go to war with one another and eventually one of them wins out. And this happens constantly, not just for the things that we're procrastinating on, but for decisions that we're making too. So it could be that ugly project that you don't want to do procrastination and emotion and logic. They all they go to war with one another and eventually one side wins out. But it could be something as simple as if somebody brings in that tray of donuts. And you have to have this internal battle of okay, do I want one of these things? Do I give in to feel good as another Canadian procrastination researcher Tim Pitchell puts it, he defines procrastination as giving in to feel good actually, you know, giving in with your logic, with your goals to feel good about something, which can be nice sometimes. But we all have goals that are short term and long term, right, enjoying our life to getting that fitness school accomplished. But it's interesting just the extent to which activating the logical centers of our mind can overpower the emotional centers and an incredible way to do that is with that listing the cost listing the things that you're putting off and seeing the things to go to the frustration element see them as things that you're learning rather than performances that you have it can really diffuse a lot of the the pressure we have around some of these things on our list. I'm thinking about the distinction you made between a learning goal and a performance goal and I think there's a real clear leadership aspect to this too because you point out that a lot of us tend to have a preference one way or the other for just how we tend to approach things and again dear point it's not a lot of times the actions are the same it's just how we're framing it and it's interesting you brought up running as an example I've a friend to we've run out two or three half marathons and last fears and for both of us we tend to we tend to frame it as like a learning goal I think if I'm understanding correctly in that we could we could really care less about the event itself and or how fast we go the entire reason we'll do it is will register for a half marathon three four months out and the whole point of doing that is to keep active and keep running in that time leading up to the race and in fact we've both had times I think where we didn't even go to the race the day of because that was not the point like the point of doing it was yeah pay the registration fee but to actually work toward the goal of having an event and I think that that's in my mind like really helpful from thinking about this from a learning goal but the reason I'm thinking about it from a leadership context is if you're working with peers you're working with your team working with employees if you have someone who's like a performance goal person great like all in on that right but also there are learning goal people to and thinking about how you frame what you're learning what you're doing what you're coaching on in that context could totally change how someone approaches that and really change their motivation level for too yeah and that's something that comes up again and again and again and again and productivity research is if you want people to be less connected outside of work hours one of the best things you can do as a manager is send fewer emails yourself across those hours because people look to you as this role model figure and they look at the the behaviors the norms that essentially you're setting for for the group so if you're a performance goal person or if you're a learning goal person know that people will be coming at it from the other side and if you have somebody who seems frustrated by so or something like that that's really the trigger that that should the trip wire I would say even to get you reflecting okay why are they so frustrated by by this thing that they're trying to accomplish and maybe they are seeing it as a performance goal because they're in that kind of environment there are you know you're probably leading a high performing team something along those lines but what's beautiful about this learning mindset this growth mindset is we view challenges that we face across this timeline of goal attainment as opportunities for growth right there opportunity to learn more about the thing that we're endeavoring to accomplish rather than these threats to how well we end up performing and so that that's the main reason that's the main reason from the research that the learning goals absorb the frustration of these things so if you're a performance goal person know that people will have an overall lower level of frustration with the work that they do and because with with a learning goal and because frustration has that procrastination connection and that aversion connection people will feel better about the work that they do at the same time and likely while performing at the same level if not higher now that that said there are some goals that are better suited to that performance goal right if you're running if you're trained if you've trained for the marathon that's time to run maybe that's the point you know at the day of the run to set an intention oh yeah that looks like a performance goal but before that you want to absorb frustration if you want to learn if you want to be feel better along the way if you want something to be more fun setting that learning goal can be really helpful but green there's two other tactics you talk about that i think are really nice and and also things that are easy to do and i think people have even heard some of them before but it and we've all done them before but we don't think often to do it and the things where we're getting a version around and one of them is defining a target pace tell me about that yeah so this is kind of like it reminds me a little bit of your printed paper for the the trip savings school because whenever I write a book and i've done this from the very first book through to book number four i don't know if you count audible originals this book book but let's say four and a half books let's count that as half a book yeah but i do this for every single essentially cumulative goal that i have because it's wonderful so essentially you make a spreadsheet and then you look at the timeline of the goal that you have the deadline that you have to hand in your manuscript if you're writing a book or whatever it is a saving school if you have a saving school that you're accumulating over time so you have a linear line on this sheet that you print off and that's your pace so if you are writing a book over 52 weeks and the book is going to be 52,000 words the line will go up at a pace a linear pace of a thousand words a week right and it's quite nice because then you can chart your own rate of progress against that idealized pace of goal attainment see they okay am I head of schedule can I do a bit more research into the book right now or am I behind schedule so I just need to clear my week or clear a day or two this week to hunker down on this big project and it's wonderful because a lot of the goals that far off in the future trigger of of a version of procrastination it's tough to bring something closer to you in time sometimes and there are ways of doing this you can set milestone goals for along the way you can have an accountability partner so accountability is basically staring you in the face once twice a week every day even but this pace of goal attainment if you have this high level of self accountability can be a wonderful strategy for actually charting that pace I remember writing my very first book I was doing this I was trying to my progress relative to the pace and I was in Ireland and I broke my leg and needed a reconstructive surgery on my leg in Ireland I was held up in a hospital for a week or two I had to fly back it was actually well not and I won't say nice but it was nice that I got a free first class ticket back home because I needed to keep my leg elevated so that was a nice part of the experience that's a very positive way to frame that I guess maybe I'm an optimist that are but I remember at the time with very little energy but I looked at that sheet that I had and I saw that I was so far ahead of schedule I was a month or two ahead of schedule and seeing that just put me totally at ease I could feel like all this weight evaporate off of my shoulders because I knew I was so far ahead and so I could see that even though I was writing fewer words especially in the in the hospital I wasn't writing in the hospital but in the recovery period after that I could still be on pace and so it's this nice strategy to lower that level of negative self-talk too which can often get in the way of productivity it most definitely increases around procrastination this negative self-talk because we have more noise in our head about whether we should eat the doughnut or write the book Yeah and it's thanks for sharing that example and it's so it's interesting how we almost always think to do that in our projects and our teams and organizations so like we'll set we've got the Gond Sharts and everything in the project plan and we know exactly a front track and how often we don't ever do that for our own personal goals habits except very rarely do we think like okay I've got this thing I want to get better at I'm going to work on it for the next 90 days let me actually spend five minutes to make a chart to make a little thing whatever like it doesn't have to be anything fancy it's probably better if it's not it's just something really simple but boy it can change motivation like in such a substantial way it's it's really powerful Yeah it is quite nice and I do understand it on some level where I love being productive at work I love getting a lot accomplished throughout the day and stuff like that but when I'm off the clock I just want to do nothing yeah I don't want to I don't want to do much and so using productivity tactics like that in your home life it's often like oh isn't that going to make it less fun but you actually it actually does make it more fun because you see that the low the level of self talk that you have goes down especially around those ugly things that you're putting off like there's always the things that we have to do and this is where I think productivity comes in I'm fundamentally to use this podcast as a confessional I suppose I'm fundamentally a lazy person you know so so my view for probably productivity advice is it exists to allow us to accomplish the things that we have to do in a smaller amount of time. So we have more time to do whatever the heck we want to do throughout the day, throughout our lives. And so there's the stuff that we have to do in our home life that it's a lot called Parkinson's Law in action where, you know, which says that our work tends to expand to fit how much time we have available for its completion. If you have to, if you have to reno that basement closet and you're going to do it on Saturday and then Saturday the clock is ticking you wake up, so I'll do it a bit later. No worries. And then the afternoon comes and then the level of negative self-talk goes up even more. And then they say, okay, then you delay it to sun. And that's not a pleasant experience. That's not a pleasant experience. The more pleasant thing would be just get it done right away. Tame these characteristics of a version, make it a bit more interesting for yourself perhaps, maybe involve other people, whatever it might be, make it closer in the future. And then you can have time to relax and enjoy life. That's why I think productivity exists for our home life is for more meaning in that context, not only for more accomplishment. Yeah, and more fun too. And you know, you know, why not? Yeah, the last tactic I was thinking about that you talked about, I mean, it pairs right with that is thinking about like the proverbial like, all right, I got to clean out the closet. Parrot with something fun. Like put on your favorite music, put on your favorite podcast, get a family member to like do something fun with it. Like think about what you could donate and what something here that would be really useful to someone, like there's just so many ways that if you just put in one element of pairing something positive with something that's like, we've got a bigger version to can just get you started. And if you get started, it's easy after that at least easy going. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Chris, I think we've had on five pages of the book. There's so much of the book around intentionality. There's so many wonderful invitations you have for us on just moving forward. You mentioned values and tension stack. And there's there's there's wonderful models. So I know a lot of folks in our listening audience are always thinking about how do I move a little bit better a little bit more consistently. So this is a great way to get started on that. And Chris, I've got one last question for you as you have put together this book. This is your fourth one. You've done a ton of thinking on this. You've done a ton of research. You've helped people do this way better. What have you changed your mind on in the recent past and just thinking about finishing things and being more productive? There's so many things. I would say values is something I've changed my mind on. So whenever I've heard the term values or anything like something similar to anything along those lines, my eyes have glazed over and I've thought, okay, another consultant who has come up with their own list of 100 values that they give to everybody they consult with. And I became almost cynical about them. And so I got curious when writing a book about intention values can be considered our ultimate intentions across a lot of different levels. I got curious, I'll just go to Google Scholar and type in values. And I was blown away by the research behind them. And especially Shalom Schwartz's theory of human values, which says that there are 12 values. Every single person in the world has to some extent. So and once you see the values, you start to see them everywhere. By the way, if somebody wants to see them, you don't have to buy the book. You could just Google Chris Bailey at 12 values and I have a few articles about them. But you look at the tensions in the world and you see behind the tensions to how many of them are this conflict between self-direction and security or self-direction and humility and power. And you see behind the motivations of other people. And so I find that quite beautiful to kind of peek behind the so-called matrix of human motivation to see the values that underlie them. And once you start seeing them in yourself and other people, you see them everywhere. And what other people are motivated to do by default and deliberately. And I think the world becomes a bit more easy to understand in some ways. Beautiful as well. So if changed my mind of values, I used to think they were a BS. Now I see them everywhere I go. Chris Bailey is the author of intentional how to finish what you start. Chris, thank you so much for your work and your wisdom. Appreciate it. Thank you Dave. Awesome chat with you. At this conversation was helpful for you. Three other episodes I'd recommend. One of them is episode three 76. How to become the person you want to be. James Clear was my guest on that episode. Author of the bestselling book, Atomic Habits. James and I talked about the importance of identity, bringing identity into the things we're trying to get better at. Not just setting a goal and check it off the list, but actually taking on a new identity. It's an inspiration behind much of the work behind our commitments in our academy. Episode three 76 for that. Also recommended episode 507. How to change your behavior. BJ Foggan, I had a conversation about how to start small, the power of tiny steps and being able to do that consistently in order to really make meaningful shifts episode 507. Some great inspiration from him. And then finally, speaking of how to finish what you start, having a better task list is a good starting point for that. And episode 785, the recent conversation with Leanne Davy is a great starting point for that. Make your task list work for you. Leanne and I talked about not just having one task list, but actually divided into three separate areas to be a lot more intentional about how you're using your time, how you're interacting with colleagues, and how you're handling the administrative stuff that comes up every single day and how we can get better at that. Just by taking a tiny tweak to the structure of most of our task list. Episode 785 for that. All those episodes you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. Where, if you set up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com, you'll be able to access the entire library by topic. One of the big topic here is we've had database for many years as productivity, lots of conversations. Over the years on this topic and so many others go ahead and set up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com. You'll be able to access the entire episode library on that and dozens and dozens of other topics. Plus access to my interview and book notes. I have written up notes for my conversation today with Chris on the things we talked about, some of the things we didn't have a chance to talk about in the conversation and also the highlights from his book that I found most helpful. I do that for almost every interview, make it available to you afterwards. It's part of access of your free membership as all those interview and book notes. Plus tons of other resources inside the free membership. You can get access to all of it just by going over to coachingforleaders.com. Coachingforleaders is edited by Andrew Croker. Next Monday, I'm glad to welcome Jha Jyang to the show. We are going to be talking about how to build the resilience that you need to match the ambition you already have. It's a great follow-up to this conversation. Join me for that wisdom from Jha. Have a great week and see you back on Monday. [Music]