How to Find a GOOD Church (and When to Leave) ft. Ed Newton & Matt Chewning | Live Free with Josh Howerton

- A lot of people on their search for a perfect search, they never get to enjoy a good one. - Did they love the scriptures? Are you getting more of the scripture, Matt? - Are you getting more somebody's opinion? - Mm-hmm, it's very dangerous. - I think what Christians do so many times, we draw lines and we're like, "I can't cross that line because of my convictional persuasion." This journey is not about drawing lines, it's about a different direction. - Well, hey, a living free nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. But the live free nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for church online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform and it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast. - All right, we're rolling. Hey. - Hey. - Okay. - Hey, let's go, baby. - I'm with the live free nation. - What a live free nation. - Hey, what you guys gonna do this day? - Where's the camera? - 3, everyone say, let's kick this pig. 1, 2, 3, let's kick this pig. - Yes, dude. Okay, so here's to it. This is gonna be the most fun bonus episode ever. I'm with two of my dear friends, Pastor Ed Newton, Pastor Matt Schooning. Almost caught by Matt Channing. - Oh, Matt Channing. - It's like you and my brother and baby. And I popped out, and I popped out, looking like a younger version of Ed. So for a live free nation, these guys are two dear, dear, dear pastor friends. These are the guys they like breathe, fresh air into my soul, lift my arms, and I'm weary. And they're in town for a very fun recording we have later today. - Yes. - Can't wait. - Actually, I'm not talking about it. You can talk about it. - Actually, I think I can. Can I, can I try and leak anything? - Jason, can I say it? Who the recording is later today? - Okay, I'm out. Because we'll have to be teasing, so Phil Pantheon Mitchell's coming in later. - Let's go. - Who is that guy? - Who's that guy? - Who's that guy? - There's no sound effects on this. Like, I'm with-- - Hey, Ruslan would have that. - He would, he's so much. - It's okay. - Yeah, I'm not his lover. - No, I'm not his lover. - One day. - One day. - What I'm going to do is like, we got two unbelievable pastors in. These guys are influencing different parts of the country. These guys have influenced me. I just want to say this. - Come on. - These guys have influenced me. I may get a little emotional talking about it. These dudes are like, can somebody help them with this mic? It's all right, you can be on camera. - Trinity. - You can be on camera. - Is it good? Am I good? - Well, you kind of just-- - Wait, wait. We got a live-free nation. Welcome Trinity back. - Let's go. - Welcome Trinity back to the actual video. - Yes. - Here we go. Here's what we're going to do is like, I could not do an episode with these guys because they're good men, they're good husbands, they're good dads, they're good pastors, and they've been good friends to me. And so yeah, man, it's going to be a lot of fun. So here's what I want to do. Here's what we're going to go if you guys are, for people who are listening. I'm a brag on these guys for a second, and then we're going to do two things, and one of them you guys don't know we're going to do, but you're going to be great at it. - Are we allowed to brag on you at some point? - Then we brag on you right now? - I just feel like I'm in some point. To see if you put me in that position, and I say yes, I sound like a complete jerk. - All right, we're going to brag, we're going to do it. - Yeah! - Oh my God, what are you going to do? - Let me tell you what we're going to do. You can do it. - I'm living free now, let's go, baby. Let me tell you what we're going to do. - I'm sorry. - So if we had hundreds and hundreds of people submit questions like, hey, ask a, and we're intentionally a little click, baby. Ask a mega church pastor. - Yeah, sure. - Yeah, to lean into it. - For sure. - And I'll talk about this here in a second. Ed Newton, essentially the entire city of San Antonio goes to Ed's church. - Correct. - They fit, I think they fit like 30 billion people into their one big building over there. - Then the four of, how many services are you doing now? - Seven. - Okay. - Seven services, like, yes, they're over 20,000, right? Over 20,000. - Yes, sure. - So it's like, that's like, oh, move of God. - And I got 20 people in my church. - Stop, dude, that ain't true. - That ain't true. - Just kidding. - Bro, and I'll just say it, people can say whatever they want to say, to do what you're doing in Boston Man, that ain't no joke. And you're a faithful, spirit-filled man. - Sure. - And come on, we're grinding. We out there grinding, man. - No, man. - All of these people, you know, it's not easy. - My story on Matt Schoening is me and him preached at James Griffin's men's conference earlier this year because Matt Chandler backed out of bless. - Yes, seriously. - He was sick. - He was sick. - I was an audible. - He was sick. - And I finished preaching. And you guys know what this is like. I finished my sermon, I was like, dang, man. It was really good. And I didn't do the conclusion very good. You guys know what, that's like, if you're a preacher like, man, to preach the clothes and clothes like a freight train. I was like, abs, conclusion with that grade. But I was like, it went pretty well. And then I walked up to the age, and I could literally hear from the stadium, tuning is dominating me. (laughing) He preached like right after me. And I was like, they are definitely like an ad. A lot better than me. - That's a funny story because when I got- - I knew he was gonna say that's a fact. - No, that's not a funny story because- - He probably thought it. - No, no, no, no. - No, I crushed that and I'm gonna lie. No, just get it. - No, that was a funny story because when I got up, there was no break between you and me. It was basically you went, and then I got to go up. And not only did I have to go directly after the one and only pastor Josh Howard in, but in addition to that, I was an audible. And so they're like, hey, just so you know, so that was Josh Howard in, and now Matt Chandler's not here, but we found another Matt C from Boston, and like he hopped on a plane and literally 40% of the entire room got up to go to the bathroom as they announced me up. And so I just started screaming at him. I was like sit down, your worship sucks. This is terrible, do you even love God? If you don't love God, go ahead and go to the bathroom. Okay, so they started trickling back in and I just yelled at him. - Well worked. - It worked. - That's me bragging on you. Now you can do whatever you're gonna do. And then we'll get it. What, I'm supposed to tell him we're, let me tell him we're going because when people will listen to podcasts, they're deciding if they're gonna listen to the rest of the thing. So we had hundreds of people send in, ask a pastor kind of things. I'll shoot you straight. We were talking about this by the way, with some sweaty eyes before we're doing this. Stuff we're gonna hit, stuff like our oldest son is gay and the only way he sees Jesus is through us. Where do we draw the line? Can a wife correct her husband? How supporting scripture? I got married in June. My husband's a pastor. How can I best support him? How do I know? How do I know when I should leave this church and go to my church? Do you lose your salvation if you stay in habitual sin? My son is an atheist. Every time I talk about the Bible, he scoffs, what do I do? And then unbeknownst to you guys, I'm gonna toss at you the top six objections to mega churches. And then we'll rapid fire those. So we can't hit a couple of things to be spicy. So you guys do whatever you do. - Well, can I just say something first? - Yeah, please. Is it okay? 'Cause you need to close it out. For sure. Josh, I want to look your eyes on this one. - Yeah. - Okay, for real. This is really, I need you to hear this. You have built an incredible platform in an incredible ministry, okay? Real talk. You are a better man behind closed doors, and you're a better man off at a stage and behind the camera than you are in front of it. And I mean that genuinely. Man, we've had some conversations, whether that's text messages, videos, whether that's being together, where we were in Georgia together. You are an encourager. Just, I look at my own life, dude. I have, I don't mean this to be like false humility. I just have no business being in a room like this at times I feel. And I don't mean that. Again, that's not self-deprecation. I just know the size of your platform, but men, you are always there to elevate others. And a lot of people think just because you have something big that has been about you and about building your platform and elevating yourself, when people don't know that behind the scenes, you're the one who's encouraging everyone to come up. And I mean, if you think of a little side story, I was asking Joby Martin, why Joby did you put this cohort together? And he's always because Josh Howard to tell me I had to. There is a cohort that's investing in 20 pastors, right? Because you've pushed another man who also has a large platform to utilize his platform to make sure that these guys, who nobody knows, but they're leading churches that are doing some things for the kingdom to make sure that they aren't left isolated and alone. And people don't know that stuff about you. And so, bro, we're grateful for you. - We're grateful. - We're grateful. - Thank you for saying that. I'll pay you extra, for saying that for sure. - Personally, I think about the moment that I first met you. This is the part that you and I first met. And this probably will never make it on a podcast. But you texted me to encourage a pastor down in San Antonio, Texas. Our worlds were, I think, beginning to connect in a line. And you go, "Hey man, on a day off, I just drive." They clear my head. And you're like, "I'm gonna be in San Marcos," which is about 35, 40 minutes from me. And you go, "I'm gonna be at a coffee shop. "I'd love to meet you." You took the initiative to meet with me. I meet you at a coffee shop. I feel like I need to bring you a gift. I bring you a pair of Jordans. - I know this thing. - I know this thing. - So they were like space jam Jordans, which had rabbit fur. Rabbit fur. - Like actual rabbit fur looking. - Well, now that you're a hunter, you probably would take them. Now. (all laughing) They were like this faux rabbit fur, but they're a collector's item. And I am bringing the best of the best. - Like literally. - It's gonna make me sound like, - It's like, it's like a Franken sense of truth. - No, no, because I'm gonna flip this 'cause the moment you looked at me and we just met and you go, hey, I am grateful that you would do this. You're like, but I'm a boot guy and I will never wear those. It was at that moment, I was like, this dude, and we about to be friends because it was honest. - Yeah. - So from that, multiple meals we've had at different places that we were connected. But there was a moment I called you in the parking lot of a Panda Express and my world had fallen apart. And I was going through it. Just, I just felt beat up at a lot of levels, just wrestling with depression, wrestling with anxiety, wrestling with things that, so many times just don't make it into podcasts like this. And you prayed with me, encouraged me. And then literally I'm sitting at the table, Matt, and I get a text message of a $450 gift card that would take my wife out to a stake dinner. That's Pastor Josh Howard. - Yeah. - So we honor you, sir. - Matt, here we do. - I love you, yes. I mean, so I appreciate you being a band of brothers. - Yeah. - And the last thing, I got one last thing, we got more. - Yeah, maybe we just bumped the whole podcast and just gas you up a little bit, but not a bad idea. - But your desire to be accessible is second to none. - Do you have answered the call? Anytime I've called, you've hit me back. If I needed something. - Well, first of all, if you randomly FaceTime people, it could be-- - Well, that's a fact. - I don't care. - I don't care. - I don't care. - I just don't care. - I will, I will. But like, but the fact that you allow yourself to be accessible, there was one time I hit you up. You were like, bro, I'm putting a kiss to the bear. I'm gonna hit you up when I get done and you do it. And so I just need you to know again, - Pastor's past. - People that sit in that seat, right, rarely carry that level of accessibility. And it's just what you do is special. You just need to know that. - Matt. - Hey, bless you, bro. - Thank you, for real. - Yeah, for real. - Thank you. - All right, rapid fire. - Okay. - Both of you guys gotta do these. - Newton, you go first, tuning you go second, Jordan or LeBron. - Oh, that's all day, Jordan. - 100% Jordan every time. - Who are two ministry influences that have influenced your life and ministry? - Danny Sinkfield, who is a pastor at a Barclay, Tennessee, that most people would never hear about that took a shot on me at 22 years old. - Come on, Matt. - And then a guy I'd never got a chance to meet by the name of David Busby. - Oh, Busby, I know that name. Okay. - Just two is really hard. - I know. - Okay, I'm gonna go with more than that 'cause I don't obey. I'm gonna go David Wilkerson actually from back in the day. - Shout out. - Really changed my life as a brand new believer. - Really changed my life. - I meant, live free nation. If you've never read "Cross In This Crossed Blade" - OG, great book. - Yes, unbelievable. Times Square church in New York City. - That's right, shout out. - Yup, so, and then I'm gonna go with my pastor back when I was living in North Carolina for five years, pastor Alan Holmes. - Come on, man. - Then two others I'm gonna just throw in the mixes. Matt Chandler, Matt Carter. - I love it, dude. - It's great. - In and out of Waterburgr. - Man, Texas, 'cause I'm, you know, I'm Texas. It's in and out. (laughing) This is true, you know. - This is why I meant, leave his church. - And Waterburgr. Waterburgr is hubbed of San Antonio. They had quarters in San Antonio. - This is, that's the other waterburgr. - No, I gotta say this. They got Mayhem 17 on the call. - I know. - It's funny, their manager reached out to me 'cause I'm always like Waterburgr water and they're like, we got Bible verses all over. - Not even like John 3, 16. I'm talking about Bible verses that most people don't even know. - Like, Mayhem. - Mayhem. - Takes you 15 minutes to find it. - What is that one in there? - A real Christian is on that verse. I'm gonna like choke you out. - No, I just need you to know. I'm going Dunkin' Donuts 'cause we don't have it either where I live. - He can't listen to what's on you. - We don't have either where I live, bro. - I can't listen to what's on you. - I took you to in and out. - You took me to in and out. - They have a Bible translation to read. - To read. I'm ESV guy all day. - To read would be NIV to preach from me ESV. - Yeah, ESV. Hey, real quick. And then we're gonna dive into some of this stuff. This little meteor, will you give? And I know this is an unfair ask. Give your two minutes. Like, here's who I am, here's who my ministry is. - Yeah. - Age before beauty. - Okay. - Oh, sure. - Wow, okay. - No, I'll take it. I just made it. At almost 51. I just kind of ran there. - You did, I'm gonna go with it. - I think for me what got called into ministry at 18 years old and was biblically illiterate. I go off to a Bible college and I just began to understand the significance of the grass withers, the flower phase, but the word of the Lord remains forever. And I was like, I want people to know the depths of God's word. So my ministry exists to eradicate biblical illiteracy. - Bro, that is one thing about Ed. Like Ed does, like people wouldn't think it because you're funny, your illustrations are great, you're easy to listen to. Bro, Ed does, he's like, there's theology underneath and Ed Newton, so I don't know. - You can. - There's something underneath there. That's why I like listening to you. - You can. - Guys, tuning. I would say became a believer in college had never met a Christian until I got to college and get saved radically. In essence, I know the gospel's so real 'cause it still hits me hard every time I just think about who I was and who I am. Me and my wife, when I was in college a few years later, the Lord, we graduated from college, I was gonna climb the corporate ladder. Did that for about seven years and then the Lord called us? - Some kind of sales. - Yeah, I was in sales. Yeah, we did design space planning for like major corporations. So it was making six figures that like 25 years old was doing fairly well, had a bunch of kids already. Like we were just plugging along and the Lord just gave us a dream to plant a church. It was back in the X-29 days and went through an X-29 assessment and they actually like yellow light of me were like, bro, you ready, you got some stuff, you got to like work through. And we submitted to the stuff that they wanted us to work on about a year later, they greenlighted us and so we had moved to plant a church in the greater Boston area. One of the least reached regions of the United States to this day, it is the place where you're least likely to read the Bible, to claim Christ as Lord, to attend a local church or to consider yourself as a person to pray. And we started the church in our living room and it been grinded ever since our church is in a mall. We're literally in a mall directly adjacent to AMC. - Yeah, there you go. - Yeah, there you are. - Yeah, it's been, it's interesting. We have probably, probably about 1200 people coming every Sunday right now, but our, I know, but our room is like 350 seats. So it's just like churning and it's, it's been really interesting, especially. - Yeah, man, all right. Well, I'm grateful for you. Let's dive in. Let me, I'm gonna start with something and just start at you. I want us to talk about real quick, like what we think is happening in the church in America and then we're gonna start getting into these like, these, ask a, ask a pastor things, that kind of thing. So, Trini, I'm actually, I'm gonna use those, those, so let me, Ed, I'm gonna do my three circles thing. - I was gonna say it's the best thing I've ever heard. - All right, I'm gonna do my three circles thing. I wanna hear what, here's what I'm asking. I feel like something is happening in the church in America in general. You're seeing, for the first time, like on the graphs, all of us are similar ages. I'm, how old are you? - 43. - 43, I'm 43. Okay, 50, if you're 50. - One, next month. - So I gotta ask it. - Yeah. So, here's what's interesting. We have grown up where we have never, in any of our lifetime, seen a graph where percentage of people claiming Christ in America was on an uptick. Until, from what I understand, until last 18, 24 months. - Yup. - So I'm gonna put a few dots together. A lot of people were listening. You probably don't even know this. So like, literally, all of us grew up seeing all the graphs just do like, do this, all this thing. Last 18, 24 months, first time in our entire lifetimes, you got this little thing going on. I will say, dude, I'll just kind of point this out. This is like, let me just speak it into existence. Please, Lord. - Prophecy. - Bro, if you look at the history of revivals and awakenings in the United States. - I can't speak this. - That's for real. Bro, this is like, my eyes are gonna sweat every time I talk about this. You go first grade awakening, so that's Jonathan Edwards, George Wiffield. 50 years later, you get second grade awakening. Okay, 50 years after second grade awakening, I'm gonna make sure I try and get to try it. 50 years after the second grade awakening, that's when you get the New York businessmen's revival. You gotta get that's around there, okay? 50 years after that, you get Azusa, shout out Karrismatic Boat as sisters. That was a revival, Hanukkah was safe. That was an actual pouring of spirit. You get Azusa. 50 years after that, this is where my stars went. 50 years after the lat, you get Jesus movement. That's high to Billy Graham, Chuck Smith, Jesus revolution, all the hippies getting saved, okay? Then, - Bring it. - 50 years after that, guess where you're at? - We're here. - You're about 2026, okay? Now, I'm gonna show some things. - Here of Jubilee. - Please Lord. - Every 50. (laughing) - All right, 7-7, 49. - He's releasing the captives. - That's wild. - Okay, I'd never put that together. - Wait, did you just come up with it on a spot? - I talked to the guy on the airplane about it. - Okay, good, I was just, yes, or today. - Of course you did. - No, no, no, it's for real. I think it's a cycle of the 50. - Come on, please, do it again, Lord. For, listen, man, if our kids and grandkids got to grow up in a window over a vival, oh my gosh, man, okay. - Let it be. - So then, I feel like you're seeing this thing, trying to go and toss that thing up. And this is like my life message. I did this it as church when I came to preach. And so you're like, we've all grown up in this thing. I might as well hear what y'all think about this, and then we'll get into this stuff. We'll get a rapid fire. So here's what you got. We got three types of churches that historically, in my opinion, they all stay away from each other. So you got doctoral churches, this is kind of what I kind of came of age and ministry and these are like, you know, these are your highly, highly theological churches, frozen chosen, it's a little joke. You have to you for seven years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. First, second, third John, that's John MacArthur, John Piper, you know, John, you know, that's kind of the kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's John Piper. I don't know who the third one will be. That's them. That's that. They love the word of God. Then go to the next one. You got the attraction of church movement. That was kind of like secret-sensitive movement. Yeah. And the dude, by the way, people knock on that all the time. No. Praise God. Yeah. So many people got saved. Praise God, dude. Like they just, they act like heaven and hell are real and people are actually going to go there. And what's the opposite of attraction? Ugly. Revolcive. Yeah. Even nobody's trying to do ugly church. Like, come on. What are we doing here? No, it's like, hopefully it wasn't. The winning value over there is mission of God. Like, I just want to reach people. Okay. And then the other one you got right down here is charismatic churches. And this, hey, it's, you know, spirit of God is the primary thing. And man, we got some great brothers and sisters over there. Yeah, sure. You got arc movement. You got me just, uh, and actually here in a second, I'll show you. I'll show you a graph that'll blow your mind. Another graph that'll blow your mind. Uh, so charismatic. So these three things. Then honestly, man, what I feel like. What I want to, what I want to see in my life. Minister in our generation is going to next one is church. Go to that next one. The one with that right there. Like right there in the middle. That's great. So and you see this kind of the new testament. I won't do the whole thing right now. But the Apostle Paul in Rome is 15. He's like, man, how do I do ministry? By word, deed and the power of signs and wonders. Doctoral churches are all about the word. Attractional churches. They're typically reaching people through deed. Power of signs and wonders. Charismatic churches. R.T. Kindle has this fire quote. Yes, fire. Well, I read it tattooed itself myself. He said there are word churches and there are spirit churches. There has been a great divorce in the church between word and spirit. And like any divorce, some kids go with a mom and some kids go with a dad. Bro, listen. He said revival happens when you bring those two back together. Yes, man. All right, let me do one more. I just want to hear what y'all think is happening. Like as you're seeing the lay of the land. First time in a minute, up tick. You see some things come together, typically aren't together. Let me do one other thing. Show that first graph that's got the stuff omitted. So this one will make you cry, but the next one will give you some hope. So that I took this couple of years ago. This is a percent change in membership in the major denominations in the United States over the last 35 years. Average is down. It's like 25, 24, 25 percent with one extremely extreme outlier exception. I omitted it from this on purpose. Go to the next one. A.O.G. is the one that's like breaking every trend. Every trend. Yeah. Plus 51 percent. For years. For years. A lot of people don't know this. Um, the charismatic church movement is the, I'm not saying it's perfect, obviously. Uh, you know, nobody's got a corner on that. That's the fastest growing movement in all of church history globally. Hmm. All right. So then all of church history in all of church history. Okay. Now I'll do one last thing. I'll do one last thing. And then I just want to hear what do you guess? I'm just asking you. What do you see happening right now in the church in America? And then what do these ask a pastor questions? Uh, so we had our tea candle. If you don't know who our tea candle is. Holy fire. Repent and go find Holy fire. As a gray dang book. Artie Kendall came to Lake Point. He preached. Right. Right after me. Yep. He was God. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. You want to follow or lose or not to let you. Yeah. Uh, he preached a counter-lake point the day before it. Yeah. He was 91 years old when he preached at Lake Point. And let me just say there's a gravitas to a 91 year old senior saying you're opening the word. Yeah. Sage. Bro, a pin. You could have heard a pin drop in that 4,500 person. Nobody was believing to go to the bathroom. Sorry. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. He preached. I bet 40% of the room responded in repentance when he's done. So Artie Kendall said he and, yeah, he's got a healthy understanding of, you know, word and spirit. Artie Kendall's analogy is he goes, uh, Isaac and Ishmael and the Old Testament. Mm-hmm. And, you know, Abraham tries to force the promise. And he gets Ishmael, who, uh, he thought was the child of the promise, but was in the promise. And then he gets Isaac. That Isaac is the actual promise. Artie Kendall looked at me. I laid hands on and pray for him right back there. And he said, Josh, what I think the spirit told me God may do in this generation. As he said, the move of the spirit that you have currently seen through some of these movements, he said, uh, was Ishmael. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we've seen some, God do some wonderful things. Mm-hmm. And people thought that was the promise of the revival and the movement of God that was going to come. And he said, I think what God showed me is, is that it, it wasn't. But then he said, Isaac is coming. Wow. Wow. He said, I think Isaac's coming. And he thinks in our generation, we'll see a marriage of that word and spirit thing that will, that will sweep. So let me just ask you, I just downloaded a bunch. And then we're going to ask a pastor stuff. Mm-hmm. When you hear that, you look at what's happening in church in America. What do you see? What do you think's happening? Uh, I mean, the first thing I would just say is like all the things that you're talking about is what's happening. It's here. As a matter of fact, I will go as far as to say is a lot of the denominational churches or groups that you had upon that screen. People are trying to get out of those denominations because they have a sense that the spirit is at work. And there's a curiosity about the Holy Spirit. Mm-hmm. And there's a desire to walk into like walk in the spirit in that way. And so it's not even that so much, people are just leaving the church. It's like churches are all the sudden gaining the spirit. And we're like assemblies of God without the label, you know? I mean, I would say that's true. I would say it's true for both of our churches. There's been something that we both talked about. That's one of the things that brought us together. So you could talk a little bit about more your church. But mine is that that has absolutely been the case. You know, we got, we were pretty staunch, reformed, charismatic. But I would say more reformed and charismatic. Charismatic was more of a label than it was how we operated. And I would say over the course of 15 years, our reformed theology, although we would kind of lean in that direction. We are way more excited about the spirit than anything. Now we are Bible. We love the Scriptures. We open it up every day. That's right. There's no doubt about it. But I want to see the spirit of God move in power. Come on, man. And so we're praying for healing. Every service, we're inviting people to come. We're yelling at people if you don't work. You know, Lord, with dancing in your hands in the air, like, we've got to pursue what the Scripture says is true about the spirit. And not just say that we believe it, but not actually pursue it. So I just see that very much in my church. And I think it's the church, at least nationally. I don't know too much globally. But I grew up Southern Baptist. And I think for me, I had a very theological wangrudom understanding of the Holy Spirit. Wangrudom, by the way, carousamatic guy. So I didn't know that. Strong belief in continuationism gives the spirit. Go ahead. I grew up as a. But let me say, a lot of people who read Wain are not. Well, I think for me, that book of systemat theology was almost. depending on the seminary that you went to for me was like the gifts of the spirit are done with the apostles. Yeah. So I held to cessationism. Yeah. And then I passed our non-denominational church. So I come out of Southern Baptist, become non-denominational, where it is a conglomerate of every one of these particular backgrounds. And I think what happened for us is a curiosity of like, there's got to be more. Yeah. There's just got to be more. And I think for me personally, I've been on a journey. My mom died in 2020. My mom was deaf. My mom had cerebral palsy. And I get a journal entry from my grandmother, who had passed away 20-something years prior, from my mom's sister. And my mom's sister, my aunt, goes, I think you need to read this. I didn't know it. But my grandmother took my mom to a Pentecostal healing service to be healed of her deafness. My mom was unable to have children. I married to my dad, comes forward, and a man prophesies over my mom. Not to be healed of her deafness, but tells her she's pregnant. And it was me. I never heard of this story. Yeah. It was me. Wow. And this put me on a journey of going, there's got to be more to this. So in this pursuit of the Holy Spirit, I began to see this. But when you came to our church, I'd never understood those three circles. And it gave me language. You know, words define worlds. And now, like my world has been framed with these three circles. And I think what we're seeing is that the streams are converging. we have seen, um. Denominationally, but when you look at poverty and persecution, the fastest churches in the world are growing in places that sometimes don't even make it an outreach magazine and don't have podcasts and don't have worship centers like we do. It's in places where like Christ you're all we have and we need the dependence on the Holy Spirit because of the warfare. And I've learned this from you and you gave me language that every time there was riots, there was revival. Revival, right? Okay, and so you see these rhythms and I think what we have seen for the first time in our history is like this clash of the church and culture and we're watching politics kind of come into our lane. Our lane and we're having to rightly defend the word of God for Speeder 315 and we're going the sword of the Lord is sufficient but we need the Spirit of God to pull back scales and we know faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but it's like no this is spiritual warfare and we need to be activated when we see Ephesians 6 of like battling in the spirit realm and I've preached in some assembly of God churches and Kojik churches and this is what these men are saying how dare we have to have we thought that we were the ones who had the corner market on the Holy Spirit. Yeah, bro, I'm seeing the same thing. So they're saying that as I'm the guy that comes out not in their camp who comes into that space but I've had an encounter with the Spirit and this is what people are saying and I think this is probably the best way to say this is the Holy Spirit is not weird. Yes, right. People are weird. Amen. And that when it comes to 1 Corinthians 14, I think every Christian would go, I agree with all of this except for speaking in tongues and healings. This is what prophecy I see. I love that too. But even in prophecy here's what I would say is that you define prophecy in two ways predicting the future or looking at things that are easily missed that get made plain again. Totally. You know, and I think our camp will go, yeah, I believe in the prophetic of like that part. Yeah, yeah. Speaking to the future, I wrestle with. Right. But then you go, what do you do with these passages? And we got Bible verses. I gotta do all the Bible verses. So you take that systematic theology and you go, okay, if I just on an island and all I had was the word of God and some nutter butters, what do I with no outside influence? What am I coming to? What does it say? And I think you come to the conclusion that this is just as much as true for them as it is for me. Yeah. That's right. And that's what's happening. So word churches are becoming spirit churches and spirit churches are becoming word churches and the streams are coming together and this is the explosion that we are seeing. Come on, man. So mentos and coat. There's all Jesus name. There's also an element like just for, okay, let's not even think so big. Let's just think about like personally, forget about the churches and all that stuff. There comes a point in your walk with the Lord where you're just like, this is it. That's fact. Like forget about like churches and all that stuff. You know, I'm just like, this is it. We're just going to do the Bible thing and like try to really be good and like, trust Jesus, there's got to be more to this and eventually you get so frustrated with your own, you know, dispensation to a disposition to a certain sin or your own nervous system is freaking out. And you're like, where is the spirit of God, right? Or like you've walked into situations where you're like, I can't do this. I need the Holy Spirit to come through and it's like a verse isn't cutting it. I was with Eric Mason years ago. Somebody was in the room and he just paused. Some of those in the room and they were like confessing something that they were going through and struggling. He just said, can we just be honest? Can we all just pause for a second? A verse isn't going to fix this guys. And it was like the first time I had a pastor who I looked up to who loved the scriptures was just that honest. It was like if the Holy Spirit doesn't fall in this moment on this situation, then we're just done. We need divine power to tear down strong. Yeah. But here's the just one quick thought is there's a difference between I want the Holy Spirit for stage giftings. Because if that's the case, then we're the sons of Skiva. For people who don't know whose sons of Skiva are, give them the 10 second. It is, they see the gifting of what's happening in the Apostle Paul and they're watching the signs, wonders and miracles and they go in more of a spirit of magic. Yeah. We want that ability to gain that type of influence, to be able to yield and wield that kind of power. And in that moment, it's like we know Paul, the demon speak. We know Jesus, we know Paul, but who are you? You got no reputation in hell, brother. That's what they're going to. You got no reputation in hell. So to me, I honestly was like, this is not so I could be a better preacher. That's right. I want, I want the Holy Spirit of God so I can love my wife better and love my kids better. And here's the difference. And I'm just going to put this out there. This is going to be a hot take. We never do that on this. It just felt that the AG guys had more oil of gladness than the Baptist people hung out with. When I'm around that crew, there is more overt evidence. When I just read Fruit of the Spirit, there's 12 of them. I'm like, those guys check a lot of boxes and I see it more over there than I see almost anywhere else. So it feels, and so to me, it's that I'm like, there's something different. And when your world falls apart, I'm all for the sovereignty of God, I believe in the sovereignty of God, but I need somebody that will war in the spirit with me. Come on, man. And believe that the situation and the chain can break and the stronghold could break loose. Come on, man. And that's what I'm believing for. And I just, I've known people that have word. Like, yes, thank you for Romans 8.28. But I need somebody that will go into Ephesians 6 with me. Yes, right. Come on, man. And in the spirit realm, wage war in the heavenly place. Dude, I'll just, uh, I'll put a bow on this because it dovetails into some of these ask a pastor questions. Like, honestly, man, you guys may or may not know this, this. So I, uh, when I started ministry, I had never really had an encounter with the spirit. I was, you know, the old preacher joke of the functional trinity was God, the father, God, the son, God, the holy Bible kind of thing. And that is the true story, dude. Uh, the youth ministry that I pastored. Oh, that's kind of makes me make your eyes wet. Youth minister I pastored. I, I think I grew it from like 160 to 140, you know, and then, you know, I became a, I took over my dad's little church plant, and I grew it from like 120 to like 96 or something like that in the first few years, and then it started changing just a little bit. And then dude, uh, about three years in, and I won't tell a story because I've told it before. Uh, I was driving around the parking lot of the cool springs mall and I had read Martin Lloyd Jones book joy unspeakable. Martin Lloyd Jones is an old dead press material. And if you, if you saw a picture of him, you would never go. Oh, there's a spirit filled cares, man, man. Like he, he was literally a British Presbyterian Westminster confession doctor. And he wrote a book called joy unspeakable about encounter with the spirit, just theology, the spirit. And the longer I read that book, the only way for me to describe it is an agony. Like to this, I can feel it right now. Like an agony, the longer I read it, I was just like, I cannot go 10 more seconds without having everything that Jesus Christ has to offer. I've traveled around the dang parking lot of the cool springs mall. And I don't care what you call it. You can call whatever you want. Something happened to me. Yeah. There was a presence of God in my stupid little, I think I was driving a Nissan Altima. And, uh, and I just started praying with my whole heart. I'm, you know, I sweat and all over the place. Um, about three weeks later in the middle, one of my sermons, God heals a woman of deafness, actual deafness in the middle of the service. And then, uh, did I know how to explain it ever since that moment. And this is one of those things, God, uh, Paul watered God, uh, Paul was planted, but Paul planted a polished watered God gave the growth. From that moment on in my life, I don't know how to explain it. I have never been able to lead a ministry that just didn't see a unique thing happen. And that was never true before that moment. Wow. So I'm just saying not by my nor by power, not by the spirit of the living. It's great. Which leads me to some questions for some pastors. Let's start rapid fire in these guys. Yes, sir. Do we have a shot clock? Yeah. I'm keeping us moving. I'm keeping moving. We need to do these. So we're going to these are things that, uh, listeners send in that are these are thorny. Yeah. So let me start with one that relates to what we just said. Um, somebody take the ball and then we're going to rapid fire these best we can. Sure. Uh, how do I know I'm attending a godly church. It's a pod listener. They're like, hey, man, love the love the Bible teach. I'm here and here. Uh, I know there's good churches and there's not good churches. Yeah. I think, uh, how do I know I'm attending a good church? Ed or Matt. So may take the ball. I think, I think it's a great question because I think what you have right now in the church is so many people are measuring whether or not their church is a godly church by the good church that they see somewhere online. And so that's a bore. Yeah. They're, they're not actually like waiting. it appropriate. So, it's a great question, right? And so, I would just. - Why? - A couple things that just stick out, number one, that they love the scriptures, or you're getting more of the scripture, and get more somebody's opinion. It's very dangerous, right? Is there some sort of accountability structure, I would say, that is evident in the structure, in terms of, like, can your pastor be told, no? If not, it's a one man shown that's so dangerous. And I would say that most of us. - All of us. - All of us. - All of us. - All of us. - All of us at this table, right? Not all pastors, but all of us at this table, man, we wouldn't attend our own church if there wasn't some sort of accountability structure. And we have guys all the time telling us, and not only guys, right? Telling us, not wise, don't do that. You can't do that. There's more. - I would just kind of go with the baptism waters are stirred. - Well, that's good, man. - Yeah. - Like, our loss being saved. And then, there's no perfect assimilation process in a church. But is a church striving to go from the, from the baptistry tank? Is there a pathway of people that's rooted? We're beginning the rooted discipleship pathways. - Well, you're gonna love it. - We're already in love with it. - You're gonna love it. - We just started with our staff. - Come on, man. - Yesterday. I'm day two of my devotional in the book. It's incredible. But all that to say, ask that question, what does it look like to walk through a discipleship pathway in this church? I think mission and vision, we see this in companies, but what does that look like in a church? Does this church actually live by the mission? What about the mission? Which is great commission. But how does that become very tangible to how this church loves the city? Because when you see the ministry of Jesus, he loves cities. And a church has to figure out. So I would just say, those are just low bar. I know we got the shot clock expired. - Yeah, we're right. - Can I get one more? - Of course. I mean, Jesus is very clear. Love one another as I've loved you. - Yeah. - Right? I mean, he says, by this, all people know that you're my disciples. Is there a spirit of love that is evident in this body? And it's loved one another. So there's gotta be a level of community that exists. It can't just be, we're here. We show up. We all go home and the church is happy with that. - Which is messy. - Yeah, it's messy. I'll say a few things. And then you can go agree, disagree, additional comments. I got a couple of things. Number one, everything's downstream of the leaders. There's a reason, first and maybe three. Titus one is like, hey man, okay, let me, hey, Tim, hey, Titus, let me tell you how to build a good church. Let me start right here. Here's a bunch of stuff you need to see in the Godly leaders. So I'm gonna go Godly leaders. I think that's number one. Here's what I'm saying. And that's why I love these guys. These guys are not this. I don't like it when every now and then you'll rub shoulders with like a church staff. And it's like, there's almost this avant-garde pride they have in behind the scenes. You know, we like to be a little rebellious. I'm not a huge, I'm not a huge fan of that. I like the guys who it's like behind the scenes that they're still, well, I actually want to be a person of even more integrity. So Godly leaders, you hit it. But that's so good. Bro, it's a big deal. You'll see like, you'll run it every now and then entire networks that you and I can name, which we won't. I'm like, I've been taken out because of that. I don't like that. That's the culture. I don't like that. I don't like it either. Oh, when we get around a fire pit, we take our pastor a bath off. It's like, when we're around the fire pit, it sounds like this. It sounds like it. And it has to. And if it doesn't, I'm out the fire pit, bro. Amen. Number two, you said earlier, whole counsel of God, so whole counsel got. So here's what I would say is watch out the things that went, we all know this pastors don't have to try to be controversial. They just have to be willing to read Bible verses. So like, like, honestly, man, ask yourself the question, what are the things in my culture that somebody might get the most heat for? Is he willing to teach that? I think that's a fair question. So in other words, is my family getting the whole counsel of God more a selectively edited one? There's some really obvious things. You know, it's like, if you're, you know, especially I'm not to be, I don't know, throw a, I don't want to make it sound weird, but especially in certain parts of the country, like, hey, dude, if you're walking into a church and there's a rainbow flag, run for the hill, brother, run for the hill. Run for the hill. Run. Yes, sir. Run Massachusetts. Run. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Number three, I think Ed hid it. You will know them by their fruits. So, hey, man, am I seeing people saved? Am I seeing disciples get made? Am I seeing the last lost lease lonely? Do people love those people? Yeah. But you will know them by their fruits. And then I'm putting a, I'm kind of putting a bow on everything you said. Tuning said this is you don't just want the gospel preach. You want a gospel culture. That kind of vibe. So, here's why I see, like, watch, do the, do the, do the pastors like each other and have fun? I just got to be some joy. I have people in have fun. Like, are people happy in the lobby? That's a fair question, dude. Great question. But free. I mean, you're talking about live free as a podcast. But, but, but is there a, is there a, is there a sense of freedom? Yeah. Where people can just beat themselves, man. You know, it's great. So what happens? A lot of people are searched for a perfect church. They never get to enjoy a good one. Watch out. Watch out. All right, let me go to the next one. Ed, I'm going to start with you. This person said, go to the first question. The first one we were going to do, this is a toughy dude. Yeah. They said, our oldest son is gay. And the only way he sees Jesus is through us. I think ultimately, there's a big difference between affirming and accepting. Oh, click on that. Yeah. I think, ultimately, we're not affirming the choice of the lifestyle. Amen. But we're choosing to accept, man. Because we got friends here. Yeah, man. You, uh, you fiercely love that child. That's right, brother. And you leave that door open. Uh, uh, I was in a conversation with a father who was just so adamant about making sure that their child knew the scripture and where he stood convictionally on homosexuality. And I looked at him and I said, I think she knows. I think she knows where you stand. I said, but I just heard you say that you're going to boycott her soccer games. I said, the gospel in this moment is to go, she knows where I stand, but I'm going to choose to stand in these moments in that in the bleacher and convey that you and I may disagree on this. But the one thing that we will not disagree on is the deep love I have for you, bro. That's how to answer that question. Yeah. That's like, I like that vibe of like, hey, man, uh, if you're the dad or you're the mom, I think your posture is if somebody's going to break this relationship, it's going to have to be you. It ain't going to be me. Somebody's going to cut this thing off. They'll have to be you tuning what you got. I mean, though, I don't know why, because there's, you know, when you read this, there's a person behind it. That's right. Who actually wrote every word here? And there's, there's a word here where it says, um, or it says, the only way he sees Jesus is through us. And that word us is what stuck out. And I would, uh, we're sitting here. We're talking about the church. And I would just say, man, your, your oldest son may never find themselves in a church building, but this is what makes the church so unique and valuable and special, because if all you do is you come to church, and I'm not saying you are, I don't know who you are, but if all you do is come to church, but the church isn't also coming to you, then you are alone in that. And it is just us. But man, what I just see is I just see so many, when I read, whenever you Romans, uh, you know, Romans 12, when you read the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 13 of 14, what you see is that it's one body, many members. And there's only so many gifts that you have. And, but the, the, the gifts of the spirit are evident within the church. No, there is no lacking in the church, right? And so man, get your kids around the church and that, oh, that doesn't mean bring them to Sunday, right? That doesn't mean bring to Sunday. That's where I think you just got to be really careful for, for us personally. You know, one of the best things we've ever done is we've just made sure we told our kids. It's not about you going to church. It's that you are the church. And we're going to make sure that the church comes to you. Your friends are going to be the people in our church. And whether you want it or not, I mean, they're going to, they're going to force themselves into your life. And so I would just encourage whoever's on the other side of this is you're not alone. It's not just you. I mean, you have the church of Jesus Christ, the greatest institution in the world, the most powerful one. Can I make this comment? Yeah. I think there's a probably a different way to look at this is to go, this journey is not about drawing lines. It's about a different direction. It's like, it's not, here's the line. It doesn't mean that truth does not establish lines. Right. But it is more about what, how does Jesus, like this, it's not a vertical line. It's a, it's a, or horizontal, horizontal line. It's a vertical line of like, what would Jesus do in this moment? Like, how would he minister in this space? Because I think what Christians do so many times, we draw lines. And we're like, I can't cross that line because of my convictional persuasion. And the truth is, yes, draw lines of truth. But at the same time, think about. John H. the woman caught in the act of adultery, he speaks this word over her and says where are your accusers now? And he doesn't say go and sin no more and then neither do I condemn you. He actually says it first, flipped it, neither he goes, "I don't condemn you so go and sin no more." And I think we have a tendency to flip it. It's like if you choose to stop this lifestyle, then I won't condemn you, but it's like no, let me show you what no condemnation looks like in Christ Jesus, stand on truth. Most loving thing I could tell you is truth, but make sure at the same time I choose not to stop loving you in the midst of all of them. I'll put a bow on a couple things. One, if you're a parent, I think the answer to that question really depends on the age of the kid. If you're talking like a middle schooler, I think the answer to that question is real different. If you're talking about your 34-year-old grown son. That's wise. Very frankly, and if you guys disagree, it's not going to hurt my feelings. It was a conversation with some pastors. If you got a 13-year-old and they're going, "Hey, I think I'm this gender or I think I'll get whatever it is." Honestly, I'm going to find it and then we're going to put the link in it. There was a gospel coalition article about getting a parents getting their kids out of a, they called it the transgender cult. Basically, they had a 13-year-old. Basically, what they realized is this thing functions like a cult. It's relationally reaffirmed as social contagion. Basically, they found out, by the way, a little parenting tip. Most of the time, if you change your kids' inputs, you're going to change your kids' outcomes. Just little heads up, changing puts, changing outcomes. If you have a young kid, I'd say, man, get them out of whatever relational networks are putting that into them. You're going to see some things probably start to change. I don't think that's the situation that that. A couple things I'd say is one, the fact that there's relational friction does not necessarily mean you're doing anything wrong. That is why Jesus, it was actually intended if you read it in context in the gospels. It's actually Jesus' comfort to get the disciples when He says, "Hey, I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword." In other words, He's going, "Hey, man, you guys are having some family members draw away from you. Let me comfort you." That doesn't necessarily mean you did anything wrong. And I came to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother-in-law did it. So, bro, it's like, one thing I think Christians have to realize is Jesus is not just the Prince of Peace. He's also going to be the point of conflict in every relationship you have with someone who doesn't submit to Him. So, I say, "Hey, man, you got to expect that a little bit." But then to what Ed said, I think Joby Martin said this. He said, "Whenever somebody walks up to him after church," and he's like they tell me their day. He says, "The first thing I tell him is the biggest lie the enemy's going to tell you is that you and me can't be friends." That's so wise. That's such a wise thing to say. So, it's like, "Hey, man, if somebody's going to cut this relationship off, it's going to have to be you." Last thing I would say, they said, "Where to draw the line?" You're probably going, "So, what do I allow?" Or, "What do I attend?" The line is sin. I would say again. The line is sin. I'm going to say something. It's just a little straight forward. If y'all don't agree, that's okay. Just pin it on me. But it's like, "Hey, if you got a couple, a same-sex couple, that's your kid, and they want to come over for dinner, was eating at your house a sin?" No. But two dudes sleeping with each other in your bedroom is a sin. So, yes to this, I'm really sorry. I love you, but you can't do that in our house. You come up for Thanksgiving. Here's my line. Those are boundaries. Yeah. And then last thing I say is I'll just encourage it because I see this happen to parents is out of a well-meaning desire to stay connected to their kid. They abandon their convictions to connect with the kid and they start to what Ed said. They start affirming things when they shouldn't be affirming these things. They should be trying to embrace the person. And let me just say, don't hop in the pit with them in what you start to affirm because once you hop in, nobody's on the outside to pull them out in a decade. It's good. It's great. How much time we got? What do you think? Huh? We're good. All right. All right. Let's keep we're happy for on these. All right. Shooting. Hey, man. Here's a grenade. This is what they said. By the way, this is not my question. Which is very important that Janet did not ask. My wife's name is Beth. Beth, I see what you wrote. I see what you wrote, honey. Okay. This is kind of why. No, obviously, this is coming from what we talk about. Hey, husband is your job to lead your home. Here's what that means. It doesn't mean Jan has really done some work just trying to teach like just straight forward. Here's what the Bible does say. Yeah. Your job is following your husband. Right. Yeah. So this is a fair question. Okay. First, the the overwhelmingly correct answer is, no, never know. Just kidding. Just kidding. Never. I'm so stupid. There's a joke. There's a joke. I mean, absolutely. I would say there's no doubt in my mind. A man cannot fully be who he has been called to be without a wife calling him into these things. We have our verses for this. Yes. Honestly, all over the place. But the first place you'll see it is you'll see it in the in Genesis where the wife is considered the helper and that helper actually coordinate or points to very similarly, the word helper that we would find as being a helper of the Lord, like the Holy Spirit is our helper. You know, we in my home, which is why our wives' voice sounds so much like the Holy Spirit. It sure does, man. It sure does. That's a fact. That's it. I never thought about that before. It works like that. It does work like that. It works like that in my life. And it's so frustrating. And in the same way, and in the same, it's so frustrating. Because she's always right. But no, no, but I would say in the same way in which oftentimes the corrective voice of God that we hear, we want to shun. We oftentimes want to do that with our wives as well. And so we've got to just be very careful to not do that. There's been so many times in my own in my own life where my wife has called me on things or corrected me on things in which I did not want to hear only to find in time. It was the very thing I needed to hear. And then she had to bear the brunt of my defensiveness or manipulation. And that's just, it's just, I'm not allowing her to play the role that God has commanded her to play in my life. Well, bro, I'll talk, I'll talk, I'm going to talk to this wife and through this wife's question to husbands. So when shooting uses the word helper, like, Amen, you know, if you're listening, we got a ton of people who listen, it's like they never read the Bible before. That's why, that's why actually we love this, right? So they may go like, Helper, what are you talking about? That's a Bible verse. Yeah, that's a, Genesis, Genesis 1 through 3, the creation order is, man, what we see is husband is a loving head of the home. This is my language. I'm not pinning on this on these guys. Loving head, wife, respectful helper. That's what you get. That's in Genesis. That's the literal language. The Hebrew is literally as there, connect though. It means you see it throughout the Old Testament, necessary ally. In other words, I do, and that'll pull some emotion on my heart thing by Janah. I cannot win the battles, put me, God, put me on this planet to win without that helper. That person by my side. So what I'd say in husbands, what you said is like, my wife's correcting me. I thought I was the head, right? Why, bro, don't be surprised when your helper starts helping. That's her thing. That's why God gave her to you. That's great. What else you got? I think ultimately when it comes to correction, I do think sometimes wives don't understand the significance of their words because at the end of the day, like I think we could, we could take on every lion, every giant, but to come home and to find, so there has to be what I would say, a tempered reality of correction. The tone, the tact. There's a way to do this that spirit led because I also think there's a lot of women that will correct a man and not realize they're crushing their man. And I would flip this and go, I would say that the encouragement from a wife is for me personally. Like I have this note that I just found this in my Bible a couple days ago that my wife slid in my before I went out to preach. And I don't know if you, bro, I'll hold that up to the camera. Yeah, I want them to see that. Bro, that's, is that, y'all, you can't assume, man, can you take a picture of her? Yeah, we'll take a picture of it and put out. That's amazing. Yeah. And what I would say is when she writes, well done, babe, I love you. I'm so very proud of of the man you are. Is those words just give life more than it's so deep? It's just different, which means on the flip side of that, if it, if it feels sharp, not redemptive in correction, the same words that give that life, or the same words that could take so much away from a man. And it doesn't mean that a woman should ever walk in fear of, dude, I say it the right way. And did I crush them? No, no, I just think it's an understanding that the weight of a woman's words are way more valuable than you actually think. - Right. - 'Cause men have a horrible way of sometimes telling their wives or the significant woman in their life, how much they mean to them. - Bro, dude, let me, I wanna firms that so many times. By the way, and here's a quick caveat. We're not talking about like, you need, we're not talking about abuse situations, we're not talking about like, hey man, that's gonna be a little different. There's some moments where it's like, yeah, you do kind of bow up. - Yeah, yeah. Can I give an example? - Please. - Okay, this is what I mean by a correction. I'll give you a real example. - I'm gonna do the same thing. - Okay, straight story. - Okay, I get real convicted about the fact that I need to walk through some cultural issues in our church that we're going to be divisive at a lot of levels. We're a multicultural church, multi-generational church, and we needed to walk through some things. Black lives matter. We needed to talk about trans-generism. We needed to talk about homosexuality. And we did a series called Trending. - A listen to the whole thing. Five weeks of this. I said this to our church. I go, my first opening remarks, 'cause the room is just, you can feel the tension. I go, this series is going to purge our church. - We call that a space maker sermon. - Okay, I come off stage, my wife who's five foot tall, she'll tell you she's five one. She goes, let me tell you something. She goes, don't ever say that again. I go, hey, she goes. This sermon series is not going to purge our church. This sermon series is going to build our church on the truth of God. But you see the difference, correction, but with encouragement. - She's putting steel in your spine. - Oh my gosh, right. - So when she said that, I got goosebumps. She was, and then when our church grew, because of the sermon series, she wasn't the one that looked at me and went. I told you, she just set quietly. - Good job. - And write notes of going, well done. - Bro, that's that thing of like, and it does have a bit of an edge to it, but reality's undefeated. It's like the whole helper concept. Every man marries either a launch pad or a lid. - Hey, she'll make a breaker ministry. - You either marry a launch pad or a lid, and hey ladies, what that means is, you get to decide am I his launch pad? Am I gonna be his lid? And the reason that the book particularly you'll read Proverbs, and then honestly, you even trace this theme of the New Testament, there's so much about the words of a wife. Like again, I'm just talking Bible verses, and I'm trying to be a jerk. There's a reason Proverbs that talks so much about, and it's what it says, it's just Bible verse, you know. It's like a nagging wife. You'd rather live on the corner of a house, and then you'd rather be water-borted biases than live it. And it's literally what it is. - Because it can break a man. - And the whole point is, here's what I would say to this precious wife, is first of all, the fact that you asked this question in the way that you asked is, that tells me you are a woman of noble character. - That's great. - That's a woman who wants to build her man. - Proverbs 31, who wants her man to be known in the gates. - Boom, and what that means, known in the gates, for this is a little Bible nugget, is that's where like the city council of the most respected men of the city, they would meet under the city gates. So Proverbs 31 is, it's gone, you want to be the kind of wife, who you're so much his launch pad, that you propel him into being one of the most respected dudes in the whole city. - Which is the helpmate definition. - Boom, and then so what you get is, the gentle caution is, what the Bible's doing is, hey, don't make sure you don't nag, I can't, is this acknowledging the reality? You cannot disrespect a man into respectability. - Hmm, I'm telling you, man, the dude is one of the smartest guys I know. (laughing) - It's X now, but it's fine. - Stop dude, you can't, so what that's saying is, you can't like, hey man, so I'll just say what we do in a Howard in House is I did it in the sermon two weeks ago, is we say this dumb little thing in our house all the time. We're either gonna have hummingbird tongues or buzzard tongues. A buzzard can fly over an entire, or let me do humming, a hummingbird can fly over an entire desert where everything's dead, and it'll find one, if it sees one flower that's alive, it'll focus on that and fall on that. - Mm-hmm, yeah. - A buzzard will do the exact opposite. It could fly over an entire rainforest of vibrant things. It'll see one dead thing, focus on that, fall on that. I think what a wife should ask is, what is my tongue and the words towards my husband, is it a hummingbird tongue? - Mm-hmm. - Hey man, even if there's some stuff in his life, he's real jacked up to, and he's Jesus too, just like me. - He knows it. - But are you the type of wife who's like, man, as best as I can, my default setting is, man, let me find the areas where God has given him grace and point that out, and use my words to bring that out. Or man, am I accidentally falling into that buzzard tongue thing where it's like, man, there's evidence of grace all over his life, but you tend to only find the thing, he's not good at, and to send on that, and focus on that. You don't want that to be your default setting, you know. And so what you, I think, hey, how do you correct him? First of all, you do. I think the yes, your job is a helper. I think as best you can, here's what you want to do. You can't disrespect a man into respectability, so how do you change him? You give him a crown, and he'll become a king. So what your wife did, bro, is what she essentially does, a great case study. Is she essentially, essentially, here's what she said. She said, Ed Newton, you are a spirit-filled ambassador of heaven. When you speak, this church is gonna follow you. Yep. And you know what she did? Is she corrected you by putting a crown on your head, and then you grew into the crown, she put on here, give him a crown, he'll become a king. That's great. As best as you can, I think you want to, hey man, let me find a way to, it's almost like encourage you in the right direction, and then yes, there will be moments where you need to be like, hey babe, I love you, I love you, I do think you missed it on that. Right. Ed, I don't mean to hurt, let's talk, I do think you do. But there's a difference between being called out and called up. Amen. And then Proverbs 31, I mean, the Jewish tradition is every Sabbath, they would sing it over, the husband would sing it over their wives and daughters. So what would make a woman want her man to be known in the gates, sing Proverbs 31 to her every Saturday? Wow. And see what happens. Come on man. They have never done that. No. We have a tradition at our church. Are we 31? No, we don't, but every Father's Day, every Mother's Day, and I think just the power of words, Proverbs 18, life and death in the tongue. Every Mother's Day, all the men of our house, of our church, stand up and we read Proverbs 31 over the women and the daughters. Then on Father's Day, we ask all the women of the house to read scripture over, because there's a beauty that comes in calling up. But in that call, and I love how the scripture reminds us, they may not be there yet, but could we believe that they can and speak words of affirmation to the person that they're becoming? And I think that's the role of not just the man towards a wife, but a wife towards a man. Because if they could wake, if every couple could wake up every day and go, I'm just going to overwhelm with honor, I'll do one another with honor. If I could choose to speak moments of blessing, I think it's for the edification and we watch the strength that takes place in a man. I'm going to put a bow on this and then we'll move on to the next couple, we're at the fire. So here's the last thing I'd say to this question. For all marriages, what you want to do is you want to create an environment where, quote unquote, correction is welcomed so that it's like, oh man, I asked them to do that. So people know this at Lake Point. Me and Janet got this little thing. We do it once a month on date night, where in the car on the way home-- This is so good, by the way. Yeah, in the car on the way home. And by the way, you want it on the way home because you don't want to do it while you're hungry and your blood sugar is low. So you do it on the car on the way home. And we both answered this. We both answered this question and I got to go first. Is she asked me, what are three ways I've been blessing you and what's one way I could bless you more? And then we flip it. Now here's the genius to it. There's a little science to it. By the time she has answered the three ways that I have been blessing her, I feel like the greatest in the world, I'm crushing it. So I'm encouraged that kind of thing. And then after all the encouragement, what's one way I could bless you more? Essentially, what you're really doing is you're going, where am I stinking as a husband? This is what you're really doing. But you're framing it in the positive. What's the way I could bless you more? And then we flip it and then I do the same. And what you're doing is your book of Proverbs says that what wise people do is they invite correction. It's great. So then you're creating this environment and your marriage was like, hey, why don't we get-- Come on, help me. Help me the truth. It's in the context of we're for each other. And it's in the context of encouragement. Let me move us on. We got to do these others a little faster. We'll go to the next one. I got married in June, tuning. You're going to start. My husband is a pastor. I mean, honestly, we just go back to some of the things we're talking about before. You know, I think the encouragement is like-- Keller used to talk about a ratio. He used to be like, can we just try 10 to 1? Like for us dummies out here, it's just like, can we just try 10 to 1? If you want to encourage your husband, it meant speak words of encouragement over him. I don't think he probably needs as much as like your hands in labor, not to say that you don't serve the church into all those things. But man, like, he doesn't probably need you, like, helping him write a message or, you know, like, just those things, right? It's more the more you could elevate and lift up his spirit through your words of encouragement, the best. Because what isn't often spoken about is how often the church and the world love to tear a pastor down. - Yeah, that's right. - Right, there's always a benchmark to try to hit that we never find ourselves there. - Never have I ever had before. - And so to be a safe space for him to come home and to be well received and encouraged to go and conquer the next day, I just feel like that's the best thing you could do. And then we could get practical as we have the conversation. But James 5 talks about using anointing oil. And as a mark of consecration, and my wife often will take oil and anoint my head. Where I go to preach, as to say go to war and stand in the power of the Holy Spirit. And there's just something about my wife, man. And I got a prayer team that does that, but there's just something about my wife that goes. - Yeah, come on, man. - We're believing and I'm staying with you. And I just think it's just a small, it may feel weird, but once more, the Holy Spirit is not weird. We just make things weird. - That's what I'd say. - You know, because we already answer that one, I'm gonna move us on. - Okay, we'll kind of hit that and see the correct thing. - Add the correctiveness to it though. It can't just be only encouragement, right? If you really want to support him, don't let his head get so inflated because he has a platform in position. You need to be the one that in many ways keeps him sober-minded. - The things that stand out to me immediately on what you just said, one, Janet is a vault. I never got to worry about Janice Mouth getting leaky. - Same. - So I will say, there's a bunch of pastors, wife, horror stories on that right there. - Yeah. - That's huge. I will just say one of the best ways Janice helps me is she's just a woman. She just walks around being a godly woman. Like she loves her Bible, she loves her family, she respects her husband, she loves her Lord. Like, it's just, she is the type of woman that I can say to any woman in the church. If you kind of do that, it's gonna go real well and like nothing beats that. - Yeah. - And then me and Jan take a 1.6 mile walk together every single night when the kids go down and she's my consigliary. Like, there is no ministry decision that we make. That's appropriate. Obviously, there's some things you have to do in confidence because it was involved that I don't run a past Janice. - That's great. - She's wise. - Well, I do these last things. - 1.6 miles is long in the cold world. - I was thinking about that. - Well, it's warm here. - Yeah, it's warm here. - Ed, Boston. - Do you lose your salvation if you stay in habitual sin this woman asks? - No. And let me give context. I think there are moments of seasons where we lose our ever loving mind. Sin by definition is fulfilling illegitimate needs or legitimate needs in illegitimate ways. And I think there's moments where we find ourselves deceived, we find ourselves in situations. Now, if there is a, let's just say, perpetuity of habitual sin from the moment you said, I've given my life to Christ. And there is habitual sin from a moment of salvation to the current day in reality. And there is no evidence and no fruit. And there's been no conventional repentance at all in your life, and you are okay to a point of license to sin. Then I think we have to ask, are you a lit professor, not a heart possessor? - There you go. - But in this, when we use the word stay, everybody's got a different word of stay. Is that six weeks? Is that six days? Is that six minutes? - Is that somebody who struggles with addiction for six years? - Correct. - And this is what we have to wrestle with is the go. I think as, 'cause somebody would say, judge the fruit, but I would say broaden the scope of this. So many times we take a moment and we zoom in on this one moment, broaden the scope, look at the totality of the work. - Yeah. - Jeann, yeah. I mean, I'm just sitting here reading Romans 8 right now, for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit set their minds on the things of the spirit and it says, for the mind that has set on the flesh is hostile to God. It cannot submit to the law of God. Indeed, it just doesn't have the ability to do that. And the mere fact that a person is asking this question is evidence that the spirit is in there. - That's right. - I'm believing that where I'm at is not where I wanna be. And I think it's just evidence that the spirit has made you alive. Because if you were only flesh and there was no spirit, you would not even be concerned about this question. - I want you to restate that. What he just said is theologically significant. You wouldn't have a battle with sin. - No. - Unless you had both flesh and spirit inside of you. - Exactly. - So the mere, first of all, in my experience of pastor, 95% of time when somebody asked that question, the fact that they're asking it is my greatest evidence that they are almost certainly saved because if they weren't, they wouldn't care about it. - They don't care about it. - Unless they're asking that forefront. There you go. And they're like, I don't see the fruit. And I think in that moment, that's where I think you have to go. Man, broad, just pull back and look at the totality because there are moments that someone will get snagged and sin. - Yes. - There's a moment where Satan seeks to sift you like wheat. - Yes. - And like, we could probably look at that and go, man, that was Simon Peter. On a lot of moments where he got snagged and sin. But he came out of it. - That's right. - So that's just my fault. - I'll just do a quick, a gentle theological correction. She's asking, do you lose your salvation? I think all three of us are on the same page here. - There's an assumption that salvation is there. - That impossible, not at all. So what I would say, theologically is, you can't lose your salvation, but you can't fake it. - Hey, yep. - That's Judas. Everybody else is going, is it I, is it I, Lord? - And then Judas does the, is it I? - Rabbi. - Rabbi? Can't lose it, but you can't fake it. - Sip. - Dude, I'll just encourage you, this person, to encourage you. Man, you know, the biggest surprise for me is a 43-year-old Christian been walking with Laura for now, 30, over 30 years. My biggest surprise is I thought I'd be farther along in my sanctification than I have. - Hello. - I talked to you. - It's so annoying. - Honestly, I did. - Bro. - There are times where I look at my life and I struggle with the same thing for the millionth time. And I'm like, what is wrong with me? - Until you read Romans 7. - This is where I'm going. - Yeah. - And so I think some people will go, well, a pastor, a pastor, struggles to something, makes them go, what is wrong with me? Well, guess where I got that? Romans 7, yeah. The Apostle Paul is looking at his life going, "Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? I keep on doing the things that I do not want to do and the things that I want to do. So I can't do them." - Yep, yeah. - And so, here's what I would say to this person, is Ed said, "Hey man, zoom out." It's just like the stock market. It's like, it may go through two years of a decline, but zoom out, and over 30, the trend line is this. - Yep. - So what I would say is like, the book of Proverbs says, "A righteous man falls seven times, but he rises again." So listen, here's a big idea. Whether you have been made righteous in Christ is not evidenced by the fact that you never fall. You may fall seven times or 70 times, seven times. What is evidenced that you have been made righteous in Christ is that you keep falling, but you keep getting up and looking at Jesus and going again. - It's great. - A fear of his absence is very usually a sign of his presence. It's good to go. I wanna do last one. Ed, this person said, "My son of 45 years old is an atheist. I keep talking about the Bible, but he scoffs. What do I do? Keep on talking or pray." - I think there's a moment where the seeds have been planted. And I think this is the moment where it's pray. Be when some, keep the door open, celebrate. Don't stop correcting, continue to parent. And it's hard at 45, because most likely they have moved out. But I think it's some, you want them to come back into your home often. And if it's constantly like I'm gonna preach it to you every time, I think there's a moment where you go, they'll stop coming back around. That would just be my immediate response. You mentioned that the seed has been planted and trust sovereignly that God's watering this seed. And here's the truth, could we believe in faith that God has brought people into this man's life that are not in your circle? Who knows, it could be the barista. It could be the coworker. It could be somebody that you don't even know. And so let that, let you be the mom or the dad that's in the prayer clause that interceding for your kid that God would you use somebody to speak to my kid. 'Cause we've all had that moment as parents. I've been saying the same thing to my kid and then somebody pops up and says something, and then your kid comes home. Like I just heard the greatest thing. Like I've been telling you that for 45 years of your life? - Yeah. - So that's what I would say. Be winsome, irresistible influence right now is probably your greatest strategy. - Yeah, I mean, obviously pray, right? Like pray. I don't know many people who got swept into the kingdom because they all the sudden, the theology all the sudden clicked as much as the world has beaten something out of them that they didn't know where else to go. And so I would say like, if you're talking as parents, men just continue to love those kids, be a display at a gospel to those kids, display the good news, right? Obviously, like what you said to see has already been planted, you've already proclaimed, you've already told, they know the verses as well as you do at this point, right? 45 years old, he's already got his arguments laid out, most likely. And so I would just say, always keep the door open, but also don't think that you're going to, you don't convince somebody into the kingdom. That's just not possible. The spirit of the living God has to come to indowel, convict, draw that person to themselves. And then for you, just feel free. That's not your responsibility. This is the Lord's doing. And the Lord says he trained a child up in the Lord in time. It says like in time, in due time, they'll come. When they're older, it says they'll come. And so. - Can I just add that? - Yeah, add it. - It's not too late. - No, bro. - Thank you. - I just got to say this to a mom. - Thank you. - Or dad, it's not too late. - Thank you. - Don't give up. It's not over. - Come on. - Can we literally pray for this person? - We're all doing a second. - Okay. Dude, let me just, I'll put a bow on it and then shooting. I want you to close the pot praying for that person. - Yeah. - Okay. - So I do, thank you for saying that. It's like, first of all, I don't know what this person's name is. It looks like a mom. So I want you, I'm talking to you. I'm talking to one person right now. And you read your Bible and I want to ask you the question in the story of the parable of the prodigal son. What did the dad do wrong? Nothing. Because in the story, the dad represents God. And what some of you maybe you need to hear and I don't know your story, I don't know the situation. What some people need to hear is your son is a prodigal son and you need to hear, it's not your fault. Like if some of you need to hear, you didn't do another wrong. We live in a broken world where people get to make their own choices. So that's number one. And our Lord specializes in bringing a prodigal kids home. - It's great. - So story ain't over, ain't over till so for so long. I'll just give up. This is what I tell people in the lobby, this is a frequent question. So first Peter three answers a tangent, like a question that rhymes, whereas like the wife has an unbelieving husband, this like out on the faith and Peter's gone, what do you do there? And he says, essentially says, serve them and respect them over the top and then he uses his phrase so that they may be one without a word by the respectful and pure conduct of their wife. So I think you can take first Peter three applies your situation and go, okay, love is the greatest apologetic. It says one without a word. There might be some moments where you pray ask the Holy Spirit and go, man, I need to back off the words for a minute, maybe a few years and go, man, I'm gonna make them feel so loved by a Christian. They just wanna be around me. And then here's a little rule that you should pray and ask the Holy Spirit and ask if it's a good rule. And if he says no, then ignore everything I'm about to say. Give yourself permission to only once per year, give yourself permission to ask a gentle question. Hey, y'all, I'd be a terrible mom if I never asked anything new in your faith journey. And if they say no, then you're like, okay, just wanna check, I love you. If they bite and give you an opening, awesome, run through. But limit yourself to maybe a once a year thing so that you're putting a governor on what Newton said over here that you're not, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick. And just see what the Lord does. And then you pray because as like tuning said, the deepest problem is not intellectual, it's spiritual. The New Testament, I'm quoting the New Testament. The God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So the other thing you do is you stink in assault heaven. (laughing) You get in your courtroom and you hunt them down. Give them no rest. - Yes, sure. - Visit them in dreams and visions, yes Lord. Come on, yes Lord, yes. And then when they come over, you put on your little apron and make their favorite cake, 100% tuning. Will you pray for this later? - Come on, right here, hold my hand. - Come on, bro. Father, we just recognize right now that this is a person. This is not just theoretical. These are not just people just writing stuff in. There's a 45 year old son that is out there and a mother of that 45 year old that is in the war right now. And so we just pray right now, holy spirit that you would invade that man's life, Lord. That you would send believers his way. That you would give this mother a praying spirit that she would just come to the throne and would confidence she would come to the throne. And God, we pray that you would save this man, that you would save him, God, that the eyes would be open. The ears would no longer be deaf and that gospel would go forth and be understood and be received and the spirit of the living God will come and fill this man even right now in this very moment. We join together as one unified as one believing God that you have the ability to do what we cannot do what no mother can do, but only you can do. You can save the sinner. You can call the protocol home. You can mess with the mind and the brain in such a way where the only thing that matters is what's going on in the heart and that the spirit of the God needs to be in that heart. And so holy spirit right now, we ask that you move in power and that you come and that we believe right now that one day an email is gonna come through. It's gonna test them on you will be stated and it's gonna come from a man who one day was that 45 year old eight years and God you radically stepped in and saved him. We're praying and we believe by faith that that email is coming in at some point in time. We ask that it comes quickly in the name of Jesus, we agree together. Name him. - Amen. - Amen, bro. - Thank you. - Thank you, gentlemen. - Thank you. - Do we love you, bro? - Live free, brother. - Live free. (upbeat music)