How to Drink Wine the Italian Way featuring Jessica Dupuy (Italianity)

[MUSIC] Well, hello, and welcome to The Wine Access Unfiltered Podcast. You know, what I love about visiting Italy, and I think what so many others love as well, is this sort of familiarity of it all, right? You go, it feels lovely, it feels warm, it feels relaxing, it feels like a place where you're invited to sit down. And yet, there's so many complexities when it comes to this place and visiting this place, because there's a lot of things going on in Italy. But today, we're going to sort of bring it all down for you guys, digest it in a way that feels very Italian, so very on brand, I think. And sort of wax poetic about why we think this is maybe one of the best places in the world to visit if you're a wine lover. As a reminder, this season is all about wine and travel, and so we're definitely going to cover some of the ways to travel Italy today. But we're also going to be talking a lot about what I think is really the most important part about Italy, which is the culture. That's what drew me into the place initially when I first visited a few years ago, as a wine lover, I had been previously as a non-wine lover, as a college student who could afford, you know, a two-year-old pizza and a one-year-old glass of wine back in the day. But today, it's a slightly different story, and what I love so much about it is the fact that there's so many stories to tell, and it's a wonderful place to visit as wine lovers. And I think we brought in the perfect guest to highlight all of that today. We're going to be talking, like I said, about the culture and another word that you might not have heard of, but we're definitely going to be talking a lot about that word is Italian quantity. I think I said that right. And the word is talked about a lot in her new book from Jessica to Puy. We've had her on the podcast before. You can find that episode way back, I'll link it below. Jessica is a James Beard award-winning author. She's a writer of wine. She's a lover of wine. She's just a wonderful person who I enjoy having in my life and I'm sad that she was not there more in years past. But here we are in 2026 and I get to have her on not once, but twice to the podcast. And I'm so excited to have you here with us today, joining from your home state of Texas. Howdy. Howdy, chow. I mean, howdy, I don't know. That's a important term. It's a Jeff Porter term. We definitely have to attribute it to our dear friend Somalia Jeff Porter. Chowdy is what we say if you're Italian/Texon. It's great to be here Amanda. Thank you so much for having me and I look forward to this discussion of all things Italian. Yeah. I think it's going to be fun. I love Italian wine. I don't know where you stood on the subject prior to visiting. Were you a lover of Italian wine? You know, I was. I mean, it's hard not to be right. Like this is something where, especially because, okay, we have a little bit of a background in studying wines, right, for certifications. And so, you know, you learn how to blind taste wines. And one of the things that I always love, you know, it's kind of like if you're blind tasting, you always hope that they give you like a New Zealand 7-ion Blanc because you're like, "Oh, I'm ringer, ringer, got it." Yeah. But Italian wine is kind of similar, like, especially like Italian reds. It's like, there's something about these wines that when they're in the glass and, you know, they have similar color, especially for some of the benchmark grapes that we are most familiar with in the West, like Nebiollo, San Jove, say, Norello, Mescalay, say. There's something that, you know, it's easy to actually kind of confuse for each of those. And I think what I love about that, not the confusion part, is it's because they all have this beautiful lift and they have this kind of common thread among them that has this, I don't even want to say drinkability, but like, invitation to not only enjoy them, but like, enjoy some Italian food, etc., etc., it's just, they're unmistakably Italian. And who doesn't love a place that has that type of identity? So absolutely, I had that feeling before I started this book. And of course, now it's deeper. It's just deeper. I could agree more. I think it did take visiting for me to connect the dots a little bit. I like Italian wines. I just didn't understand them. But to your point, when you start visiting the places and drinking the wine in the places, you really start to connect the dots more and you start to understand how culture sort of penetrates what you're drinking, not only from a flavor in aroma, standpoint, and obviously food pairing standpoint, but also just from like a vibe, right? The more serious wines, so to speak, the wines with nervi tension tend to be in the north and that sort of reflects the people there versus, you know, the wines that are a little bit more generous and feel like they have a more of an ease with still having structure live more in the central parts in Tuscany. And so I think what I love so much about this book is the fact that you don't do a deep dive into the semantics of making wine and the tarot. You really dig into the culture of this place and some of the stories around Italian wine. And I think for someone who's traveling to Italy, maybe for the first time, maybe for the second, even for someone like me that's been there a whole bunch, I think reading about the culture of it and how it can be reflected in these different places is so crucial to understanding Italy before, after enduring your visit. So I'm very grateful for this book because I think you've put into words the things that I've often struggled to, which is more of a feeling. I'm grateful to hear that because of course, you know, you work so long on something and then you're like, I hope this translates okay. You know what I mean? And, you know, obviously you can hear it in my voice. I am not Italian. So it's a big task to try to be able to like convey exactly what you just said and make sure that that message gets out really, really clearly. You know, I wrote this with an Italian, so that was helpful. Yes. His name is Andrea L'Ognardi and I'm sure we'll talk about him a little bit more, but it became clear as we were writing the book that even though much of this concept is his idea and a lot of it is a sort of tracking or memoir of his career. That's kind of how we organize the book. It kind of became clear that it helped to have his insider voice, but then also my outsider voice to help really translate that for a market that, not just the market of like the US, but like people in the UK, Asia, all over the world, people who really love Italian wine or love just Italianness and find a way to get them to understand it on a different level, you know? Totally. Yeah, no, I love it. Under, by the way, it's a master of wine and the co-author on this book, if that wasn't clear earlier. I love that he even said in the book, "You brought questions. I wouldn't have thought to ask and notice things. I had long stopped seeing," which, you know, I think it's such a lovely sentiment because it is so Italian to just, you know, to not notice these things because they do become such an integral part of people's lives there. And even I think as you're there for long enough, it, you know, becomes second nature, but I know you guys sort of met in Montalcino in Tuscany. That was sort of your first connect the dots. And so I'm wondering what that interaction was like because obviously someone like Andrea meets someone like you, you know, a sort of outsider. What was it about that meeting that spawned the idea to bring you into this book? You and I travel a lot, we visit different places and we start to get used to the same kind of format of, "Hey, here's our story of our wine brand. Here's some steel tanks. Here's our barrel room. And now let's talk about the wines and taste some of those, you know. There's kind of, and I'm not trying to boil it down to that simplicity, but we're used to this, yes. There's a formula for this, you know, to speak. Yeah. And the very first time that I met Andrea, it wasn't like that. I mean, yes, we saw some tanks and we saw some barrels, but to be honest, his first introduction to us was to talk about how they were taking a different approach. And this is in Montalcino where Brunello de Montalcino, we know how these wines are made, right? Like if you're a wine lover and you're an Italian wine lover, you're likely a Brunello lover. And so as a result, you're like, okay, we're used to this type of time in barrel. We're used to barrel on San Jovese, we're used to 100% San Jovese. And I was like, okay, how different can it be? Like what's this way that you're saying? And I'm not, I don't like to call myself a cynic, but maybe a skeptic, right? Or I'm like, okay, what do you know about that? No, I mean, these wines rarely stray from the path, right? Exactly, exactly. You know, the proof is always in the glass. And I have to admit that when we started tasting through his wines, everything he was talking about and how they are trying to push a little bit outside of the boundary of what the requirements are for DOCG, I was like, okay. And as we tasted them, you know, we're talking about single vineyards that they were releasing. This was under the brand Baldezuga, by the way. He had three different single vineyard releases. Well, it's the first time I had really tasted side by side, something from the Southwest Quadrant, something from the Southeast, and then also from the North. And kind of was like, oh, I get what you're talking about here, you know? And so that conversation just, it captured me because it was just a different way that he was talking about it. And it then kept me peaked enough that I wrote a story about new approaches that Italian wine makers were making. and he was one of the sources for that. Fast forward six months and I was invited to Velpolicella, which is the home of Emerona, and he was the leader of this kind of Emerona academy, if you will, in time. Giving us a chance to see how Emerona is made. It was during harvest season, so we got to see how they picked the grapes, select those grapes for the drying process, et cetera, for a passamento. And even during that time, he started saying this word, Italianity. There's this Italianity to these wines. It's a very Italian. It's so, you know, and I was like, what is Italianity? That's not actually, that's not an Italian word. It sounds more American, right? It sounds something that you would hear respectfully in Texas. Put a pin in that for a minute, because it's been really strange the past few weeks to hear this. Yes, thank you. You may be right. I didn't come up with it. It definitely was an Andrea word. But one word I was like, what does that mean? Like, what is Italianity? It's clearly a made-up word. He said, actually, no, there is an Italian word, which is Italian ita. And it is, I looked it up as a good journalist. That's what I did. Sure. It is a word that means the state of being Italian, right? Like Italian-ness or what it means to be Italian. And when we think of being Italian, from our perspective, we see things in our brain that are like red tiles in the Tuscan sun on stucco buildings. We think of fast cars like Ferrari and Lamborghini. We think of fashion. We think of food. And yes, we think of wine. But all of these things, when you show up on a roundabout in Rome, it's all like churning together. There is this Italian-ness in the culture itself. When you see an Italian person, you know pretty quickly that there are one, not from here, and two, they're likely Italian, right? So I thought it was a really cool term because he said to me, Italian-ity is Italian-ata or Italian-ness, but through the lens of wine. And he, as you mentioned, he is a master of wine. There's only four in the country right now. And it's all fairly recent that they have these four masters of wine. We take for granted, I think, as Americans, because we can walk into a retail store or any restaurant and find wine from all over the world. I can grab New Zealand. I can grab Australia. I can grab Argentina and I can grab Italy right in like five minutes. Right. To become an Italian wine in a country where that's not the case is pretty impressive. To become a master of wine. To become a master of wine, yeah, yeah. Sorry. What I found fascinating is he really recognized the Italian-ness of his own wines from his own country when he had to learn how to taste wines from everywhere. Ooh, that's fascinating. Totally. Yeah. And again, like I said, I think I take that for granted. And so when he explained that to me, I'm like, oh, yeah, totally. Like, of course they have their own identity. So this conversation turned into a, you know, you're really passionate about this. You should totally write a book about it. Like, I think this could be something. And this is not my first book. I've written this is my eighth book. So I've done this before. And so I think he kind of attached on to that idea and was like, well, I don't know how to do it. I absolutely want to, but can you help me, you know? Right. And so now we have this. I think it's so funny and something that is also just so Italian to not even recognize the fact that like, there is such an innate Italian quality to your wine that it takes going out of your own region to have done it like that, like how Italian and how funny. But you're right. I mean, when you're in Italy, you know, much like when you're in France or in Spain, you know, they tend to drink their own. It's not, you know, quite the import export market. Like we have here in the United States or in other countries. So how exciting for you to both kind of be on these weirdly parallel journeys together, discovering Italian wine in your own respective ways? You know, it really was. And I think we both in the process began to appreciate that even more. So, you know, we started this book, yes, as a master of wine and as a wine maker and a viticulturist, he has this very cerebral academic approach to the way he does his work. But as we started writing it, he realized there are plenty of books that are out there that are just like this that tell you, oh, this is Kianti Classico, this is the grape, this is the soils, this is the climate. And so we quickly realized we don't want to do what is already out there. There's some great books out there that if you want to learn about these regions of Italy, you can do it that way. It became more about the importance of sharing essays and stories just as an example with Andrea, like another way that he discovered his Italianness is that his first job out of college after he studied viticulturist in wine making was actually not in the vineyard at all, but the corporation that he worked for said, before you start working in the vineyard, we actually want you to learn how to sell Italian wine. And so they sent him to New York. He barely spoke English. And he knew some, but was not great at it. He worked for Frederick Wildman and was like, and he had to sell Italian wine. The academic straightforward kind of guy that he is, he starts carrying wines to all these different restaurants and retailers in New York City. And he was horrible at it. He would open his box, his portfolio box up and say, here are my wines. Do you want to buy them? And like within the first month, he was-- - We were like, what is this? - Yeah, they were like, no thanks. And he was failing. And so one day, one of the top sales guys at the company walked by him, they were in the office or whatever. His name was Maurizio Vertakini, very Italian. - Yes. - And he was like, how you doing? I know it's your first month. Like, how's it going? And Andrea is like, horrible. I'm not going to make my sales goal for the month. I'm doing bad. And Maurizio is like, OK, you know what? Tomorrow's Saturday. I have the day off. But let's-- I'll tell you what, meet me at 9 o'clock in the morning here. And we're going to go sell-- we're going to go be Italian. We're going to sell your wine. Don't worry about it. So he starts to walk away from Andrea. And he turns back and he looks at him. And he's like, be sure you dress nice. Like, just dress nice. And-- - Yes. - Andrea, he comes from a family. Farming family in Valpoli, Cella. He is not a Milanese fashionista, right? Like, or fashionista, I guess you would say. So he did what he could. He wore a suit. But Maurizio, the next day, shows up in a black car service. He's got a Prada suit on beautiful leather Italian leather shoes, the belt, the pocket square, all of it. Dresses the nines. And he's like, all right, let's go. And Andrea grabbed his box of wine. He's like, all right, here we go. And he's like, no, no, no, don't bring the wines. Today, we are Italian. I love this. It was great. And they went to restaurants and retailers. And they ate parmesan and drank espresso and talked about sports. And by the end of it, he didn't open a single one of the wines that they were selling. He opened other wines. The restaurants would open other wines for them. But by the end of the day, he had made his number for the entire month. Of course he did. And that is when he realized that there's something that people really do quite appreciate about that culture. And he had been missing it the whole time. So we wanted to share stories like that. I think when people think about visiting Italy as a country and as wine lovers, they're often maybe just thinking of the rolling Tuscan hills, right? I think we think of the under the Tuscan sun. We think of eat prey love. We think of all these things, which is great. And that is very much part of the Italian culture. But it's not the only Italian culture. And so I would love your thoughts on where, if you're visiting for the first time, is Tuscan the first place that you should go? Because it is so emblematic of the more famous stories and images that people know. Or is there perhaps somewhere else that you would send them? I mean, and now that I've been, it's kind of hard to say in hindsight, right? Because I'm like, no, the answer is no. That's not where I'd start. But not because I don't love it, right? I think that's what's interesting. And actually, the book is set up in such a way that it's not by region as much as it is by grapes. So perhaps my suggestion might be, if you already or love a certain style of Italian wine, whether that's Barolo, then let's say it is. If it's Barolo, then you should go to Pimante. And you should check out that area. If you love wines from Edna, then you should go to Sicily, right? Or if you love, for me, like my favorite region right now is actually in the Northeast. I love Alto Adije, and it's a joining region for you, so kind of the Trevignizia area. But that's because I love the mountains. And, you know, Alto Adije is in the Dolomites, but the wines are really beautiful and have a lot of potential. And so I think that, for me, was this big discovery. I love the regionality of these places. In Pimante, there are certain way. They are super influenced by the French, not necessarily in the way of making French wine-- like wines in the same way as the French, but because they're so close to the French border, there's a certain swagger that they have that's very different than what you're going to see in other parts of the country. Whereas in El Touedre de J, it's still-- very, very much influenced by the fact that it was once part of the Austro-Angarian Empire. In fact, the primary language is German, not Italian. Even though it's very much an Italian address, right? So I think that's what I would encourage people to do as they choose places. Sysilis has been conquered in the past 400 years. I think by 17 different entities, right? Whether it's Spanish or Greek or the Normans, maybe more than 400 years. Let's put it in a thousand years. But the point being, that certainly has an influence and an impact on the way that people are in Sicily and how they trust newcomers and how they invite people in, but only so much. And it gives you an understanding for, okay, if I understand this part, then I can really enjoy these wines or the food or the way in which things are done here because I have a little bit more of this invitation in. I think that's so smart and such great advice because obviously you want to go to a place that you're going to love. But when you have a country like Italy that has so many different places and they're all beautiful and all of the wines are great, I think, really narrowing it down to like, what are my preferences when I drink wine is the smartest way to go. And I think it maybe is a perfect segue to sparkling wine, which I'm sorry that once again, we keep getting like halfway into these podcasts and realizing that we could be drinking the entire time. Yeah. We are talking about French accordion. We're not talking about Cicero today. I think when people think of sparkling wine, they often think of Prosecco. Understandably so. We've talked about Prosecco. I love Prosecco. It's a different style of sparkling wine from the one we're talking about here, which is made in the traditional or champagne method. This is the one that we've got or the one that you've got if you are a member of the wine access and filter podcast wine club is a lima, marcazine front accordion, neatens, brutes. So this is actually made from 85% shardney and then a smidge of Pinot Niro or Pinot Noir as you might know it in the French language. And then also Pinot Bianco. So very traditional blend for French accordia, but French accordia is really known for making sparkling wine not the way that they make Prosecco so that secondary fermentation and tank for Prosecco for French accordia. They're doing that second fermentation in the actual bottle and then aging on the leaves. In this case, it's being aged for two years on the leaves, which is actually longer than a lot of the champagne that you would have anyway. But I think it's so funny the sparkling wine culture in Italy. So I see you kind of smiling. I loved one of the moments that you mentioned is being at this dinner where you looked at all of the wines. And of course there's burrullos and there's brunelos. But like half of the table is not only sparkling wine, it's champagne. And yet you have like actual champagne from the region of champagne. And yet you have Italy, a country that actually makes sparkling wine in the champagne method sort of ignoring French accordia. It's a strange conundrum, okay? Because if we look into history, we talk a lot about champagne as like being the origin of this style of wine, which is kind of true. But actually there's a little bit of contention on that front in terms of Alte Lange, which is in the Pimante region also making a second fermentation in the bottle style of wine. So I'm not going to get into that because that's not what this book is about. But I will say that Italians have long loved not only sparkling wine in general. So yes, like the Prosecco Charmote style that you mentioned, but then also the champagne style. And it is a celebrated style of wine to them. It's the kind of wine that when something great is happening and you're among friends, it's what they're buying. They're buying champagne. And actually the second largest importer of champagne in the world. Yeah, you mentioned 12 million liters are imported annually. That's insane. Yeah, it's Italy's not that big. No, it's not that big. And like we happened to be at a dinner with importers and buyers and yes, there was one Frenchman at the table, but he wasn't the one that was ordering champagne. I can promise that this is true. It's so funny. So I joke about it, but it actually kind of made me pause and think as an American. I'm like, we just drank some beautiful vintage burrullos of blah, blah, blah. And then all of these champagne were at the table. But you go to like Vinicili, which is one of the largest wine expos in the world in Italy. And it's celebrating all of Italian wine. And one of the best most well-known bars and restaurants in Verona during that time is Boteca Vini. Which we're going to put a pin in circle back to because I love that there's a whole section on that place, which amazing. Yeah, it's an amazing place. But you know what they're selling like crazy during Vinicili is champagne. Of course. But I think you know to bring it back to French Accorda, what a beautiful like kind of homage to this style of wine. And yet, even though it's made in the same way as champagne, it definitely still has this italianity to it, right? So we're seeing more Pinot Bianco here than we would Pinot Manier and Champagne. And yes, we're seeing Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. And the way I usually talk about French Accorda is it's kind of like champagne with sunshine, right? Because it's a little bit warmer here. There's a little more rightness on these wines than you're going to find in champagne. And if you've ever been to the late country, which is where this is close to Lake Como, it's actually right on Lago de Sello. So Lake, I don't know how you say it, not a Sello Lake. I'm sorry. You know. So there's a lot more sunshine on these wines and you feel it. But at the same time, you also feel that kind of classic, the knowledge bitterness that you get into the Italian whites. And so to me, it has the analytic character and all the things you love in champagne, but it also still has its own kind of presence. Absolutely. And what I thought, I thought it was so perfectly put in the book in talking about French Accorda. And as well as Trento Dock and Altenga, is that these wines aren't struggling against craft. They're struggling against perception, right? There's absolutely, these wines are beautiful. This wine, this French Accorda is like, it's to your earlier point. It's got the phenolic sort of, not bitterness, but there's something kind of like, interestingly savory about these wines, but you're right. It's slightly more sunkissed, not to the point that we might experience with like a California sparkling, but it doesn't feel aggressively acidic like you'd have with champagne. It feels in a word very guffable, right? It feels like a perfect, feels like a sparkling wine that can be enjoyed with food. We'll very much appreciate food, but also has this sort of relaxed sensibility that feels distinctly Italian. And I think that's so wonderful and so great, but I just, you know, I wonder, you know, where the disconnect is for Italians specifically, not embracing French Accorda and for the rest of the world as well, because it's all there. It's all, you know, the grapes are there, the wine making is there, the people are there now. So like, what's wrong? Well, it's, it'd be fair, you know, they're smaller region, in terms of overall production, like it's smaller than what's being produced in champagne. Sure. And, you know, not all of it's getting outside of Italy, a lot of it's being consumed in Italy. So that's, I mean, there's positives in that sense from an American perspective, I think if you are building a wine program at a restaurant, we'll talk about retail in a second, but, you know, especially in this, in this particular climate, champagne's not getting any cheaper, right? And to have a celebratory, delicious sparkling wine by the glass on your menu is difficult if we're talking champagne, but honestly, it's not difficult if you are talking French Accorda. Right. And I love it when I see places that are willing to put, you know, a lovely French Accorda on the by the glass list because it's inviting people one to enjoy a sparkling wine in the same style of champagne that's just as delicious, but also it's basically asking them to say, wait, French Accorda, what's that? You know, like tell me more, you know, especially if they like it, which usually they do. So. And I think it's funny to mention that because this is actually the specific French Accorda was discovered or I guess the chain of command went Shelley Lingren at ASXteen. Yes. To Eduardo and Laura who run the wine access wine program and then to me. So that was sort of the chain of how this wine ended up here is that this was a Shelley, who I know, you know, Shelley of ASXteen. So if you're on for another day, 16, one of the greatest Italian restaurants Italian wine, it's not a wine bar, but wine bars in the country, both in two locations in California. I think she also has like several in Asia. I know she has one in Tokyo, but ASXteen just opened a Napa in the old, I mean, not she space. So if you're visiting and used to love that space, that's what is there now and it's wonderful pizza, but Shelley is such a great Italian wine champion and lover. And so anything that she says that's deemed worthy enough to go on at ASXteen list, which is truly iconic is like, okay, at my book. I 100% agree. And Shelley actually has an essay in this book. Yes. Before that reason, because she's - She is like, she's won an award for basically being spreading the gospel of Italian wine, if you will. I was just with her last week doing a, she hosted us for a book release party. And it's just her passion and understanding of Italian wine and kind of finding what's out there to share with everyone else. It's unmatched. It's pretty impressive. - Yeah, if you can't get to Italy, get to one of Shelley's A16, okay? - There you go. - Yeah, that's pretty close. And it's a pretty authentic. She does a really good job of bringing all the things that are truly special and unique to the various regions in Italy to her restaurants. Like she's really truly passionate. And I'm wondering right now, allowed why we haven't had her on the podcast. This is a mistake on my part. So I know this is-- - Next time. - Purely an oversight on my part and a grand mistake at that. In terms of like French Accordia as a place to potentially visit, is it? I mean, I know it's the closest city is Milan, which is personally my favorite. It's where I feel the most at home, not only in Italy, but in Europe. I love Milan. It's like I feel that I was probably born there in a different life. And obviously close to the leaks. So is French Accordia a place that wants to-- - 100%. So it's been a few times. It was actually as a wine journalist, it was actually one of the first wine regions I ever visited. So it was kind of a-- you were talking about, should you visit Tuscany first? As on a wine trip, it was not-- Tuscany was not my first. French oil was one of my first. Which I think was actually like in the grand scheme of things. If you think things happen for a reason, that sort of thing, I'm grateful that it was one of my first. This is a place, we talk about like in San Francisco, had Napa Valley and Sonoma or the plate, is the little vacation escape that people get to do to have a wine weekend, et cetera, right? I'm from Texas Hill Country, right? So in Austin and San Antonio, the Hill Country is where we go to have our little escape. And so if you think about French Accordia like that, it is so close to Milan. It's actually also very close to Verona and not too far from Venice, right? So these merchant cities, these cities of larger populations, they can escape to French Accordia. In this case, yes, you can go to Lake Cama, but the Lake Isseo is really what the lake is that you're visiting around French Accordia. The restaurants there, I mean, so there's a, I think it, I know it's a relian Chateau, but it's the restaurant at La Loretta, which is a resort hotel that's owned by the family that owns Belavista, French Accordia. They have an amazing restaurant there that I believe is three Michelin stars. I could be wrong, but it's at least one. But also the more relaxed places, just along the lake, lots of really great restaurants to visit. It's a beautiful place. And I think it's one of those that's kind of an under the radar place because everybody's so focused on Tuscany or everybody's so focused on the bigger regions, but it's a country where a lot of, this is the area where Polenta comes from. So you have corn fields in and amongst the like vineyards and it's pastoral, it's rolling hills, it's these steep lake slopes when you're literally on the lake. I can't say enough about it because it's, it's a really beautiful escape, yeah. I'm so disappointed that I've been to Verona a handful of times and I've been to Milan a handful of times and I love both very much, but I have missed French Accordia. So now I feel I need to maybe rectify that very soon. - Yeah, since we're on the topic of Verona, it's not a city that I hear a lot of people talking about outside of like Juliette Spalcony, but it is like, it is this city that's so sweet and so charming and so beautiful. And it houses one of the greatest wine programs in the world. And I don't say that lightly, like it is, it is a place that I'm so glad that you spotlighted, at the same time. It's so impossible to get a reservation if you don't advance. I'm like, don't make it too popular, are there already years? And that place is Antica Botega Del Vino or just Botega Vino. And I love that you guys kind of spotlighted that in the book because I do think it, why did you spotlight it? I guess it's the question. - It was a revelatory place for me and it's an important place for Andrea. So Andrea is from this area, right? Like he's from Valpoli cella and Verona. But Valpoli cell is just right outside of the city of Verona, right? So he grew up here. Botega Del Vino, it has quite a history and it's technically owned by a conglomeration of historic families in the Valpoli cella area. So people who are producers of Valpoli cella, Superioria and Amorona, these are about 13 families that all are owners of Botega Del Vino. - Ah, that makes so much sense now. - Yeah, and how else could a restaurant like that survive? - Yeah, but you know, if you'll, I mean, the restaurant is 100 to years old, but at the same time, it needed this local support or it makes sense that it has this local support that really focuses on wine and the way that it does. So today it is under the management. So they've hired this man named Luca Nicolis who is the general manager and has been there for like over 10 years. So he's been there a long time. But he comes from Michelin star chef status, like he is, he has a chef's background, but also a very, very strong wine background. And so the wine list here technically is like this big leather bound book. It's like the Bible. - It goes from the top of my head down to my navel. Like massive. - It is genuinely that big. - It's massive. It has over 20,000 bottle, like well, the cellar has over 20,000 bottles in it. - Yeah. - And it's not just Italian wine. They've got an apple. They've got all sorts of wine because they understand who's coming to Verona. So as you mentioned, it is a quaint, precious little city. And yes, we think of Romeo and Juliet. But let's think about why. Shakespeare came to Verona because it was interesting and it had history. And yes, he wrote about it while he was drinking. (laughing) It goes to show that this is a town where the gigantic arena there, just like as we think about Rome having their great gladiator kind of dome, right? That was the same thing as the arena in Verona. This is where gladiators fought. There's this crazy history there. But Poteca Vini is, you know, it's the hub, especially during Benitoli, but even not during Benitoli. This is where people end up, you know, at the end of the night to celebrate wine, but I actually wrote about it after I asked for a day with Luca. I was like, can I just show up when he shows up? Can I just sit next to him and just follow him along? And he's a very dynamic radiant character. But I remember walking in to Poteca Vini at like 9.30 in the morning, okay? And he was already posted in this particularly perfect spot in the restaurant. So far enough away from the entrance, but not all the way in the back. And he was right in the corner, and he was back to the wall kind of very, you know, in a Mofioso style, not that he is, but like that kind of feeling of, I know exactly what's going on in my restaurant at all moments of the day. And so I sat in, he had a, you know, an espresso, two cell phones going as computer, his assistant was there. And there was this buzz already happening in that place where-- 9.30. 9.30 in the morning. So it's like you had vendors coming in, you know, butchers, wine producers, you know, drop-in-off wines, boxes, he's saying hi, but he's also working of his very, very fast and furious, just like, you know, kind of anyone in a busy restaurant would be doing in the morning, but like it also is open to the people of Arona. And so this is not when you find tourists there, it's when you find locals. So they're coming and having their morning coffee there. And they're, you know, spill in, you know, what is it we say spill in the tea? Yeah. Gossip and making little deals and handshakes, whether you're a local politician or just a guy who's been there because you own the apartment three doors down, that kind of thing. And so I found that really fascinating. And then it like transitions during-- up through lunchtime is when you start to see it move from the locals, they kind of escape because they know that the tourists are going to start coming in. And then it becomes a different theater, so to speak. But by the end of the night, it's all wine, all-- it's all about wine. And so whether you're having dinner there and actually accessing that large gigantic book of a wine list, or you're just walking in for some chiquetzi, which is their version of tapas, if you will. Right. You can grab a couple chiquetzi from their case, and you can have something from their chalkboard menu, which is usually what I do. So there's a lot of different ways to experience Boteca Vini. And I encourage all of them. I encourage all of them as well. I didn't know that there were that many. I've only done the one. And I will say, if you're going to go, just prepare to have a slow morning the next day, because you will want to take advantage of the wine list. It is truly that good. If you have the chance to go and see the seller, it is-- I don't know how they have-- like they literally have-- these old dressers that you pull the drawers out of that have widened. Like it's everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. I mean, Florida ceiling wine in places that you can't imagine wine could possibly live and yet it does. And I just love it so much and it was one of the reasons that I loved going back to Verona and Milan and one of the reasons that I started wanting to. Because when I first came to Italy as a wine lover, it was Tuscany that I landed in Verona and specifically Montalcino. And then I visited County a few times and then one real little bit and I love it. And you know, a lot of it, part of being there, I think, and why I love it is there's so much of it that reminds me of California. And I love California. I've lived there for a long time. And I think there's something about the culture there that feels very relaxed and beautiful and pastoral. And then you go to this other side of Italy and you have a completely different experience. But still one that has that Italian, Italianita and Italianity that you can feel in different ways, right? There's a through line. I still haven't made it to Piamante. Call me. Let's go. I know. When you wax coatic about Piamante for a moment and why and the merits of why I should go there next. We think of Piamante and we think Barolo. We think Barbaresco. And rightly so, right? These are iconic wines coming out of those particular Dio Sugi regions. Nebiollo to me is just such a beautiful grape. It's such an unusual grape in terms of how this is the best place where it expresses itself. It's so hard to find good Nebiollo outside. I'll keep you posted. Yeah, exactly. I know California is trying Australia is trying. I think actually they're getting close when we've grown it in Texas. Yeah. But I think what's fun or what I discovered about Piamante is that there's other things going on there too. We've already talked about Alcalanga being a sparkling wine region that's within there. But also to me and the chapter itself is called Nebiollo, not Piamante in the book. And there's a reason. It's because Nebiollo really is this grape that is this we call it the orchestra. Like it's when all things work together in an orchestra, it is it is enigmatic, right? And you have one whether it's a conductor, he comes in, he may not even, he may be a traveling conductor, but if he works together with an orchestra that's already done all the practice that they need to do and he walks in just for the performance, it works the way it's supposed to work, right? And that is Nebiollo. But beyond Borolo and Barbarresco, you can find beautiful versions of it and like Roero, where it's all sandy soils, very different from where we're finding the iconic versions that we know about. We also have an essay in there about Valtelina where Nebiollo also sings just further north, north of Lake Cuomo. So outside of the realm of Piamante, this is Alpine Nebiollo. So it's grown at very high elevations, it has a very different feel. But in the end, there's this beauty of Piedmont. So I'll just like forgive myself promotion of the book, but I mean, this is the cover. This is Piamante. And it is just a beautiful representation of rolling hills, sunlight, but also Nebiollo is a grape that is named for fog. So Nebia in Italian is fog. So it's also known for having this very kind of morning and depending on the season, this fog that hangs out in the vineyards. And it's really important for how the grape expresses itself. And so to me, it's a place that if you love Italian wine, you need to go here. But I think you also need to understand there's an essay in the book about how the region has evolved over the past 10 to 20 years. And you'll recognize this because you've worked in Napa. But we talked to a lady who's had a restaurant there for many generations. She's a cook. She's not even a chef. She won't call herself a chef. She's just a lady who's been rolling pasta for all of her life. And she was talking about how like if you go up on a rooftop, which she took us on, and you look at different sides of Piedmont, some people call Rich Piedmont, the part where all the vineyards are and all the investment from outside of that region has come in and built beautiful wine tasting rooms and beautiful wineries, state of the art wineries. And it's just a blanket of vineyards. And then she's like, and some people say this part where all the forest still is, they called out the poor Piedmont. She's like, but I call it the reverse because the Rich Piedmont is what the biodiversity is, is what we were when I was a child. And that's over in this area where you still see forest line and trees and everything. And the poor Piedmont to her is where they're starting to scrub out the original culture of the land. And as soon as she said that, Napa came to mind. Sure. Because we, I think Napa has struggled with that over the years. We've pulled up so much and planted so much vineyard that we don't want to forget what the heart of the region really was. In a place like Italy where you don't have a monoculture, but there are parts in which it is becoming a monoculture in the way that, you know, in a lot of ways a Napa Valley has become. You're right, it is, it is the places that can still exist within that biodeverse ecosystem that really are the rich parts. And they're the parts that are going to be there 100 years from now, 200 years from now. If I had a crystal ball and I could look into it, I would venture that the quote unquote rich side probably won't be as long-lasting. You know, I, I think there's good and bad to everything, right? You need to have capital investment and you need to have things to be able to sustain yourself economically, but at the end of the day, and especially at a place like Piedemont, I imagine, the biodiversity is what makes those wines, the boroughs, the barberscos. It is what makes them truly wonderful and special and unique and different. And why other places can't replicate it in the way that Italy makes it in the first place? Yeah, it's true. And this book is a lot of those types of essays, so it's not just here's Borolo and Barberesco Yay. It's, guess what they drink on Tuesday nights here? Don't tattoo because that's what, you know, Uncle drank, you know, or my grandfather drank or whatever. And that's, and they're not in special glasses like this, which Yay, let's, let's enjoy. But they're in like little bity, what we would call maybe juice glasses, right? Like, yeah, your little tumblers. Exactly. You're using the things, giving it's great. Yeah. And this is meant to do that. And we have, in many ways, especially in our culture, the American culture kind of premiumized wine in a lot of ways, which has made it a little bit distant for people who are just getting into wine. And Italians remind us that wine is always on the table, but it's not the center of the table. Right. And that is what we wanted to do with this book is share stories and essays about that to remind people that when you're here, there are ways that they do it that's a little bit different than we're experiencing at like top restaurants in America, which is nothing wrong. We should celebrate that way, but also know the real way that it's being done, you know? 100%. Listen, I love, I love my wine glasses, right? But right, there has become this premiumization of wine that has made it feel inaccessible in a lot of ways. And it's, it's made us forget that wine comes from the earth. It's something that is grown and made with hands and it doesn't have to be fanciful. It can be really just truly, you know, simple as picking an apple from the tree and eating it and, you know, in the same, in the same vein, just pouring a little bit of red wine into a nothing tumbler and drinking it. It doesn't have to have all of this pomp and circumstance. And I think that's what I love so much about this book is that it's a collection of stories and essays that are one digestible, which is so refreshing, but also really kind of, you know, if you've been there before, it brings you back and it reminds you of all the things that you love about this place without having to dive into the weeds about the soils. And those things are important if you're studying about wine, but if you just truly want to venture into Italy or be reminded of what it's like or be prepared for what you can expect. That's what I love so much about this is that it's the little things. It's the details that we sometimes overlook that are the most beautiful and most poignant part of drinking wine and specifically wine from Italy. It's exactly that, that, thank you. I'm so glad that it hits that way because that was the hope. And, you know, this is a book that like, first of all, we intentionally put a lot of effort into making it beautiful. So it's something that could just sit on your coffee table and never be read, but I hope that you do read it. Yeah. And when you do, it's something that, you know, my mom can get something out of and she doesn't care about grapes and soils. And that's fine. But it's also something that, you know, a lot of sommeliers that we've already presented it to are so excited because it's giving them something where at the table, I mean, whether they're selling wines at the table at a restaurant or in retail, it's giving them a conversation to talk about in a way that I think is really important right now. And so it's been really fun to create something that I've heard. is for a wide variety of people. That's both a love letter to Italy, but also kind of this, for as much as it is for people like us in America, it's also for Italians. There's also a lot of communication about how, if we're going to move into the next generation, or what the next chapter for Italian wine is, how Italian wine producers need to treat that, and be proud of what they make and find ways to communicate it well to the rest of the world. It is so beautiful. And yes, I mean, could it be a coffee table book? Absolutely. It's designed to be beautiful and sit somewhere that it can be admired and beloved, but I think you're spot on, like, you don't, if you didn't know anything about wine, like if all you do was that wine came from grapes and yes, it was grown in Italy, I think that you could easily pick up this book to any page and jump right in. And I think that's, it's so needed in the wine world right now when we do get so into the weeds and we do feel like we have to have 15 pieces of information before we get to the real conversation. I love that you just can jump right into the conversation and not need any backstory or prologue and that is so refreshing and just also so Italian. Just jump in. Just jump in. Exactly. I think that's a perfect way to put it. And they're so welcoming. It's a wonderful place. Yeah, they really are. It's a beautiful place to visit. I think if you're learning about wine or on whatever wine journey you're on, Italy is a great place to start. I always recommend if you're going to visit a wine region that is nodding your own backyard, it's a great place to start. They're incredibly warm and friendly and welcoming and you will feel the Italianity and the glass and the Italianita in the culture. I love it. And just lean in. The book is Italianity. You can find it on Amazon, of course. We are offering signed copies. If you want to sign copy, you can order it from my website. So that's either jessica du pui.com or we're selling it through italianity.wine, either one. Either way, I encourage people to jump into Italian culture in this way. It's really hopefully, I think it's really fun in a different way to do it. It's also just a great gift. So I know. Oh yeah, it is a good gift. Yeah. Wedding season is upon us. So maybe if the happy couple is going to Italy, what a great, lovely gift. Yes. Celebrations are ensuing. It's a great giftable book that I love so much as well. Jessica, you skipped over Philadelphia on your travels, for which I will forgive you, but it will need to be wrapped in guide at some point. We have-- Yeah, Uchi now. You have to find-- I know. I know. I know. It's so-- I'm so excited. Philadelphia is actually high on my list. Yes. Trying to organize the logistics of my co-author, who did come over here from Italy. It's difficult to get all of the days lined up in a way. He had such a short window to be here. But I am planning to come to Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles. Like, we're working on some other dates. So I will keep you posted, because you have to come. Maybe we'll do it at Uchi. Why not? Why not? It's a Japanese restaurant. But I will say Italian culture is very big in Philadelphia. Although if I were doing an Italian wine event in Philadelphia, I might consider doing it at a new restaurant called Emilia. Oh, that. I'm just loving so much right now. It's a vernic restaurant. So it's something new. And I think you would very much appreciate the Italian eta of it all. Yeah. They've worried Italian wines. So that's where I would personally do it. Now that I don't use you, but I think you'd be better served at Emilia. I'm writing it down now. Yeah. Shout out to them, because we went right after they opened maybe two or three weeks, really kept the bar low, because I wasn't-- it's a new restaurant, right? Early. Yeah. On the utility, whatever. We were blown away. I mean, truly, truly blown away by not only the execution of the food, the creativity, how comforting it felt, the price point was right, the service was right, the space was right, the wine list was everything was just great. And now I think they've been open for about four months now and they're starting to get the big press. So I would anticipate it's going to get busier and busier, which is great for them. So I'll look forward to living my best Italian life with you somewhere, hopefully in Philadelphia. But until then, thank you so much for joining us. If you are a member of the Wine Access and Filtered Podcast Wine Club, it was the French Accordia that we had today. You can find separate tasting video on that. If you want to dive into a little bit more on this wine, if you're not a member of the Enfilter Podcast Wine Club, you can find everything you need to join in the description below. It's four months, four months, four wines selected by myself and as I mentioned previously, the Wine Access team, so Eduardo and Laura. And we really do have a lot of fun finding these wines on our journeys, whether it's traveling or just going to A16. So that's, if you're ever curious about how these wines are procured, that's how we do it. We just eat and drink a lot and then we find them and bring it to you. And they're going to be delivered to you about every two months. It's 120 bucks plus tax, but including shipping. And you'll get 10% off of all of your wine access purchases. You guys, the season of wine and travel continues with more adventures and thank you for being with us. I always love seeing what you guys are up to, so please be sure to tag us in any of your photos, whether you're drinking at home with your wines or traveling to another region because you heard it you're in the back, yes. Until next time, cheers. (upbeat music)