How to differentiate your brand in a crowded market? With Alex Schellenberger

[Music] Welcome to "Setting the Pace". I'm Tim Davis, managing director of Pace dimensions, and on today's episode we'll be exploring differentiating brands in a crowded market. With this, I'm delighted to be joined by our special guest today, Alex Schellenberger, Chief Brand and Marketing Officer for Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group, and he brings some really valuable experience in marketing and brand development and some useful perspectives to this conversation. There are interestingly some differences when it comes to, for example, what American consumers will ultimately be convinced by, you know, usually a little bit more by the hardware in terms of, you know, show me the room, the wellness, the F&B, like I want to project myself almost. Whereas, you know, if you maybe go more into the Eastern part of the world, it's probably a little bit more service oriented. So there are, you know, also different ways in terms of how you want to, or how you have to show up as a brand and the content that you want to show to these audiences because there are slight different, slight cultural differences. Thank you for joining us, Alex. Thank you so much Tim, great to see you. Thank you for having me. It's pleasure to be here. Great. Well, Alex, let's start off with just some introductions if I may. Perhaps you could give us a little perspective on your role in Mandarin Oriental and a little bit about your career path that's got you there. Yeah, absolutely. I'll be delighted to. I'll start maybe roll the time back about a year, which is when I started with Mandarin Oriental. We've been on a wonderful journey now, which I get to, you know, a little bit later. I've joined the brand at a critical time where we're really about to roll out a brand-led guest-centric strategy. And I know a lot of brands, you know, probably talk about that, especially in the hospitality space. But I think we do have a very differentiating way of how we're actually going about it again. I'll be talking a little bit more about that later on. So what I'm covering right now in terms of scope and responsibility, A, of course, it's a global role. Sitting here based out of Hong Kong, which is where we have our global headquarters. It's after all a brand that stems from the Orient, from our dual Asian roots, on the one hand side, Hong Kong and on the other hand side. Bangkok, so Mandarin in 1963, which is where the hotel was built and still stands today in the middle of Central. It's the Oriental 1876 in Bangkok and hence, you know, uniting in 1974, forming Manon Oriental International Hotel Group as we know it today. And so I had quarter here and I look basically now after the brand globally on the one hand side. And after marketing in terms of full funnel activities on the other, which is why we've combined also the title into brand and marketing. Great, great. Well, and also for those that are less familiar with some of the rapid developments going on in Mandarin, perhaps you could give us a little perspective on the footprint of Mandarin today. And what are some of the biggest source markets of demand for your hotels? Yeah, 100%. And that may just maybe if I may, you know, spend one or two minutes on the first part of your question, which is, you know, what got me, what got me where I am today, so I think it's always fascinating, you know, to hear from people, you know, around the globe on, you know, how they got to where they are. And, you know, I think in a way, I was very fortunate on the one hand side, I think over the past, well, started working in 2005. So over the past 20 years, it is actually today and started with Procter and Gamble, the classical kind of marketing, line marketing career, where I stayed 12 years in different functions, always in line marketing, sales and commercial roles. So I was able to also switch a little bit between marketing and sales in the end and worked a little bit all over the world, specifically in Europe and Asia for them, 12 years and then eventually moved to Swarovski, which was kind of on my retail adventure for about four years, four and a half, which was also fantastic first in London and then in Zurich, which is where their global headquarters. And then I really had the chance to switch industries once more, and that was going into hospitality when I joined Accord as a global chief marketing officer for the entire portfolio, 46 brands at the time. You know, could really combine, I think, on the one hand side, you know, contemporary brand management that you learn in companies like Procter and Gamble, and, you know, this idea of experiences and, you know, dedicated really customer focus in retail. So it was a really nice, you know, coming together of different, you know, dots across the past. And then I had this wonderful opportunity, which is what brings me to your question before, to join Madam Orienta, because we're at a, you know, incredible point of our growth journey. We now have 43 hotels overall, 42 hotels that bear the Manor Oriental flag, one which is currently undergoing some slight refurbishment, which we're then going to open under the Manor Oriental brand. And we have the ambition to more than double the portfolio of the next eight to 10 years. So, and out of that, we have already more than 30 hotels signed with HMAs and another equally, you know, a sounding number in the pipeline. So the likelihood of success is very high, I would say, over the next couple of years. And that, of course, begs, you know, a couple of fundamental questions on, you know, how you manage that accelerated growth, because Madam Oriental, of course, is synonymous with, you know, luxury hospitality has always been in the past, you know, probably been one of the most at my companies when it comes to luxury hospitality. That's what we want to maintain. We want to maintain the integrity and the legendary service that people are used to. While at the same time, also making sure that more people around the world can enjoy the Manor Oriental as a brand, and hence we're rolling out into more key destinations. And what is also key once we're doing that is we're doing it through a brand lens, and that brings me back to what I said before. We're really going very deep when it comes to brand understanding and infusing brand at the very beginning of the journey of when we sign hotels as early as L.O.I. stages. Because we want to make sure that brand has, say, when space allocation is done, for example, in a lot of cases in hospitality, the brand infusion is one of the last steps, like one or two years before opening, when a lot of the critical decisions have already been made. And we want to kind of change a little bit the paradigm and do that very early on in the progress. So that the product that ends up being opened is actually one that the brand can be proud of. Great. And tell me so now I'm sure the hotels are spread all over the global markets. What are the biggest source markets and demand for the different types of business you get? What are the biggest that you rely on these days? No, excellent question. I would say number one definitely US. So US international travelers and that's number one, then greater China. Definitely number two. Then we have a lot of European markets or UK, Germany, France, Italy and the Middle East. Those are, I would say, in the countdown of the four to five key source markets that we have. And so looking ahead now at the next three or four years, are there any significant changes that you think is going to happen to that? Do you feel it's going to be the same sort of source markets, particularly given all the disruption that we're currently experiencing? Yeah. I mean, look, I think, you know, we're, we're of course incredibly aware of global macroeconomic trends and environments and checkups and, you know, the latest, the tariff, you know, back and forth, which I mean, at this point in time creates more and more. uncertainty than is probably needed and that's what you probably should be mostly worried about apart from potential, you know, cost increases that, you know, tariffs could have on, you know, whole tech construction supply chain disruptions is that a reserve which you all need to be aware of. So far, I mean, let's hope also fingers crossed that there will be trade deals, you know, in the next 90 days, so that, you know, a lot of those worries might go away. I would continue to think that the US will remain the number one global source market for us, especially into our hotels in Europe and Southeast Asia. Those are usually the ones that get the most we are also doubling down on our European stronghold. That's where we have the majority of our current network 17, 18 hotels overall in in in Imiya, I would say overall. So there is there is definitely a room for us to double down. That's what we're doing. We're also doubling down then further on Middle East, which is our second stronghold and developing a little bit further in Southeast Asia. We're also in the process of a doubling down a little bit more on resorts. We have currently, I would say around 60% urban 40% resorts were balancing that in our future pipeline. A little bit more so going more into a resort, lower key count, you know, stronger focus on experiences, wellness. Great. But I guess one of the advantages you have is the fact that today in Asia and China, they're probably growing faster than Europe and America from a pure organic growth point of view. So having access to both markets is probably a good thing. Is that something you also recognize? Yeah, absolutely no we do. We recognize that. Again, we're probably in a very fortunate position because the brand is resonating very strongly across the globe. We of course, you know, do every year overall brand studies and what we find is a we truly have a best in class global awareness So the brand despite it's actually relatively small footprint of you know again 43 hotels probably has By now what we know in the ultra-handed worth a target group around 93% global awareness So incredibly high. It's number one ahead of you know many of the you know very good competitors that that we are in the market for So that's great and that of course helps you know to develop the brand because you know having higher awareness also means that you could get in You know customers through conversion at a higher rate. So that's good, but we do see for sure of course because we come from Asia So the brand here has an enormous reputation Building from its two founding hotels the very iconic Mananoyental here in Hong Kong and the equally iconic Mananoyental in Bangkok And that of course helps because you know those two founding hotels are really institutions in their specific destination And you know that reputation precedes you in a way sure no great Well, and another aspect just to get your perspective on all hotels today recognize their facing headwinds in demand probably more in leisure and Little bit less in corporate and and groups are still growing a little bit But everybody is seeing a slowdown in the rate of growth of demand and at the same time that there's a growth in But the pipelines of many hotel companies and suppliers increasing Particularly after booed by the recovery from Covid so we got the situation of tightening demand and growing supply more competition What do you think is really going to differentiate you know if one looks back? You know goes four or five years looks back and says who are the winners? Who really did? What do you think will characterize those companies that do well over the next five years in a much more Arguably tightening competitive environment? Yeah, excellent question I think one of my previous bosses used to say you know you get paid you know for your ability to predict the future You know so in a and in a way that's that's you know what you have to do in in my role I guess so a couple of things I would say I mean first of all again, we're in a I think we're in a very good spot in terms of We don't necessarily see a huge decline in our demand I think we're still growing healthily across the network. So that's number one. That's very good. I mean that's It might also be that the a specific sector we're working in the luxury you know kind of Hospitality sector is is slightly still growing where I see maybe some more challenges in the mid-scale and premium sector for sure That you know already was the case a couple of years back Then number two, I think specifically also in the premium and mid-scale sector There is a lot of hotel brands that are being created not necessarily because of customer demand But because of development demand because the especially the big guys the way that they operate their portfolio is Almost on an ADR basis. They see an ADR gap in the market and that gives them almost a Development permission in a way because for sure they will they will find somebody to invest into a specific opportunity to capture A part of that market and they go ahead and develop a brand that kind of fits to that specific bracket of price Whereas and that brings me to your question, you know if I think about the the brands that will probably continue to flourish is And that's what we're trying to do in a way is to focus more on the experience that you want to build Which is also one of the trends we're seeing is not necessarily that people I mean of course But there's always going to be people that will continue to pick a destination because of you know circumstance but There is a growing trend that you know people want to feel a certain way when they go somewhere And that becomes much more important than the destination itself And so what we're trying to do is we try to build an experience first and a product in Luxury sector that reflects of course a positioning And or the service that you can expect in a manner oriental and the ADR is kind of an Outcome of the experience and the product and the service that you get that's maybe I mean at least from our point of view A better and more sustainable way to think about it and then you know our last but not least you know We have a single-minded focus at this point of time, which is the man-on-oriental brand and and that's what we continue to strengthen and continue to build and so it's It's kind of helpful that we don't have you know 20 or 30 brands that we have to manage in a way We're very focused on building the best possible guest experience under the man-on-oriental brand So just building on that point a little bit. So there are a bunch of hotel companies who are Generating more and more brands into the market for for many that I talk to people just get confused They just see so many different brands really not sure what they stand for what do you think is really going to Help a brand get cut through how do they really stand out get noticed and recognized for the differences that they really are Because as I say most people today they walk into a hotel. They could replace one brand with the other They wouldn't know what where they're staying. So what do you think the answer is particularly as we're getting into a very crowded market? Yeah, 100% and and I think more often than not what happens and that's what I you know try to say earlier is It's almost one or two years before the opening of one of those brands. They decide what logo goes on top And that's where you know the experience becomes interchangeable So I think the brands that will continue to flourish especially in this you know high-end The luxury segment that we're competing in is Thinking starting to think with the brand and the customer and the experience in mind As soon as you have signed an L.O.I Which will also mean by the way that you know maybe some of those projects will never come to life and you know some of that work might be wasted but You know, I think you you kind of have to accept that almost in in service of the greater good because what it will ultimately also mean is that you will Build a better product you will build a better experience Because you're going to be able to actually infuse and build points of difference I think the fundamental problem is you build a shell at this point in time And then you put whatever logo you want on top of it whereas the shell should already be a Manon Oriental Absolutely no questions asked and then the logo is kind of the finishing cherry on top And and I think that's what we have to almost judge ourselves By you know every new opening this could and should have only been a manon Oriental then we have done a good job Do you think therefore there'll be more new build openings or flag conversions for the chain is that is that what happens when you get a flag Conversion and the building already exists. Yeah, well to two two different approaches right 100% two different approaches And we'll continue to do both If I look at the pipe going forward so the 30 hotels that I mentioned Early rom those are all new builds And you know key destination and some urban resources I mentioned But we have done for example a recent very successful rebranding with the hotel Lutezia in Paris Very iconic hotel The celebrating 115 years actually this December and You know a hotel that has been you know actually recently renovated So what we're trying to do now is infusing those little touches that Manon Oriental in terms of legendary service For example can bring to the table to build a consistent guest experience that is on par with the rest of the Manon Oriental properties around the world to infuse Manon Oriental Collateral throughout the rooms and throughout the hotel so that people when they enter the hotel Yes, they know they are in the iconic Lutezia You know in Paris the only palace on the left bank But they also know that they have come home to one of the Manon Oriental hotels around the world Let's switch gears and talk a little bit more about consumers and markets We as business travelers are now getting older and our children are growing up and they're starting to become the future consumers of hotels What do you see as some of the biggest changes in the way consumers and corporate corporations how they're Buying these days. What is what are some of the changes you're seeing in buying criteria? What's important versus what might have been important 10 years ago? Yeah, so number one multi-generational travel you mentioned it That's definitely a trend we're seeing that is real so you know people traveling with their children with their parents Which means in terms of well product and guest experience more into connected rooms more sweet stays longer stays potentially Then there is of course a continued pleasure trend So you know people mixing you know leisure and their business meetings overall staying maybe potentially for the weekend staying a little bit longer Taking their you know family along That's definitely one another one that is also as we all know been ongoing since the pandemic is increased focus on wellness, but I would say that has morphed maybe more into well-being overall. So wellness is no longer confined to the wellness area in a way. It's more of a general, I would say, lifestyle change. And to the extent almost that now, even business travelers, when they go on business travelers, they almost want to come back more refreshed rather than being more drained, which I think is an interesting way to look at it and also challenge us to really think beyond the confines of the spa. How do you create a wellness experience throughout the guests' say? Because let's face it, a couple of them might not even go to the spa. So how do you create food experiences that are really geared towards better and healthier lifestyle choices? For example, and so these are all things that we're seeing and that we're talking about. Another interesting one that I mentioned before was this idea, the trend is actually called mood boarding, which is into the direction of people want to feel a certain way rather than necessarily thinking about the destination. I find that fascinating from a marketing standpoint because all of a sudden I think it opens up much more interesting ways to even design your website in a way, which I at this point in time, very transactional, right? You come into a landing page and it's almost like where do you want to stay, what do you want to book and show me your dates and your destination, whereas if you think along those lines of how do you actually want to feel or what view do you want to wake up to in the morning? Is it seaside? Is it nature? Is it cities, skyscrapers? All of a sudden I think that changes the idea we actually at this point in time markets to people so I'm quite excited about that and I think those were kind of the I would say the biggest most profound ones for now. So do you think then I mean a lot of people today when they go and search on the internet they will go and look at a destination, they look at a price range, they'll look at quality levels, they may have some limited attributes. Do you see more attribute driven searching and filtering becoming important or is it really going to be about location and price and brand and pretty much that's it? I mean I think in our sector we probably do see not only the focus on price, I think that's number one. There are interestingly some differences when it comes to for example what American consumers will ultimately be convinced by, you know, usually a little bit more by the hardware in terms of you know show me the room, the wellness, the F&B, like I want to project myself almost. Whereas you know if you maybe go more into the eastern part of the world it's probably a little bit more service oriented. So there are you know also different ways in terms of how you how you want to or how you have to show up as a brand and the content that you want to show to these audiences because there are slight different slight cultural differences in in the way that you know people value their experience you know either is great but it just means that you have to you know kind of cater to those to those to those differing cultural needs. And I guess one other thing that you know I noticed and I wonder to what extent it's important for the luxury brands but more broader in the hotel industry. I've got three children they're growing up. Are there very vociferous about their values and principles around sustainability and wanting to do their bit to try to help? Is that really a significant factor for you as a luxury hotel operator and do you see that growing or not really terribly important as people something that people talk about but really makes no difference to where they go. Probably two things I think number one I'm proud to say that Manon Royental has always been for the last even 10 years at the forefront of embedding sustainability into their practices. So what's for example the first you know luxury brand to eliminate single use plastic along you know the guest journey has pledged you know targets for 2030 and 2050 in order to reduce CO2 emissions. So there's a there's a you know very critical path and we review those targets by the way constantly every quarter we have you know an overall overview with the CEO where we review where we are in that journey. So but that's more about I think doing the right thing as a brand and as a corporation overall. It's not that anybody has asked us to do that it's you know we we are doing it because we believe it's the right thing to do. We are also not doing it because the consumer has told us that he will then book more stays with us because to answer the second question at this point in time we don't see it necessarily as being one of the decisive criteria for people. To choose this yes. Yeah it might change in the future right as you said there is a changing of the gods and you know eventually of the younger generations I think are more astute you know and are more more kind of clinging into that in a way but at this point in time we don't see it being a key decision criteria yet it it might very well become one so I mean of course you have to be ready but I think luckily we we want to do it because it's the right thing to do. Although interestingly on the the business side we're seeing a lot more corporate RFPs introducing criteria I know Siemens for example very hot I'm wanting to have not only good sustainability performance but also measures by property in order for them to consider a brand as part of their preferred hotels is is the pressure therefore more coming from the corporate market than you think or what's your perspective. Well we are green keys certified across the majority of our hotels but we're doing that you know because we feel it's again for the right thing to do. We also have when we engage with vendors for example the third party vendors take a methodies as an example throughout the entire guest journey all of the items that you find in the hotel at this point in time are being sourced from vendors that comply with sustainability criteria. You know the slippers is always one of my favorite examples because they're really hard to come by not being made in plastic you know you always have to find you know alternatives that are sustainable and that still fit your quality criteria. I would say is there's there's a pretty rigorous process in place I think where you're probably right where it becomes now a little bit more important is especially as we're in this asset light model is for investors in order to get financing banks might look at your sustainability practices as part of you know the overall lending process. Right got it. Well that's very interesting let's now move a little bit more to the marketing approach. The world not just in hotels but in many consumer good and services industries are full of loyalty programs most of them characterized by what I call frequency based bribery you know unpoint spend more etc but one has to question you know does frequency and points actually buy brand love. I'm not sure it does but what do you think particularly being in the luxury sector what is really going to drive a guest love and affinity towards a brand is it bribery is it the points or is there going to need to be some other factors that really gets the customers to start to love and really use the brand more. Yeah excellent excellent question so number one we don't really use points as a system so there is and we don't call it loyalty there's a guest recognition program which we're actually in the process of rolling out or refreshing in the next three weeks so until the end of April and we're in the process of basically retearing our current existing fans of a more guest recognition program and with it we're launching the first ever mental oriental app. Now why is it not a loyalty program because you don't collect points and then redeem them for you know a hotel's day or anything else and secondly I think you're right I mean that's not how loyalty is generally created but I think for the big guys you know that we know who they are you know it becomes their commercial and distribution engine which helps them to you know onboard new brands into the system relatively quickly and you know bring customers to those properties around the world so I understand the mechanism in a way because it helps them and it's a very convincing argument. For us we focus on and this you know it begs me to your question which is you know what is going to work I think it was going to work especially with you know people in that sector that we're dealing with is money can't buy experiences you know access to things that you will probably not get access to unless you are part of our fans of MO guest recognition program and you have reached a certain tier and with that tier comes certain benefits that allow you access to certain events you know that ultimately you otherwise wouldn't have access to and and I think that's ultimately what will probably make much more of a difference in the life of people then collecting me a points and then then, you know, spending them yet again on another stay. I think it's, and that's kind of the area that we're much more excited about. So is that sort of, you know, if I think about the dimensions of how that might improve if you are somebody that has strong relationship and affinity towards Mandarin, does that come to life in the form of personalization? Does it come to life in the form of better service? Does it come to life in the form of a broader relationship beyond the stay? Bring to life for me what you think the customers today, not just for your hotel, but just generally. What are customers really looking for? Yeah, no, I mean, for one, and that's also why we're launching, you know, the app because it actually is a tool for communication pre-posed during their stays throughout the stays until your next stay. And I think the more exciting part about also all of this is with our replatforming of Phantom Moe and at the same time updating, you know, this beautiful or launching for the first time, this beautiful app, we've consolidated all of our customer data in the background, which means now Tim Davis has one customer profile, one guest profile across all mandano oriental properties around the world, which has, if you have given it to us, of course, which has all of your preferences, your likes, your dislikes, you know, reported so that people on property can give you a much more personalized stay. So for example, when you arrive after, you know, 13 hour flight from London, here in Hong Kong and you have stayed with us before, we will know what to put into your room upon arrival, be it a bottle of champagne or be it something more invigorating because, you know, you have told us before, based on your preferences, this is what you like. And you know, throughout your stay, you will then find little surprises that are based on your personalized individual preferences. And that's where I think this idea of recognition of you as a person becomes actually really powerful. Everybody ultimately, I think, just wants to be seen for who they truly are. And you know, it's, it goes such a long way when you walk through a hotel and people address you by your name and know exactly what you have been up to during the entire day. And you know, we'll just want to actually help to make your day or your evening now as smooth and as enjoyable as possible. Fantastic. Good. Great. Well, let's again shift to one last year, which is really around the mechanics of being able to engage and personalize. And a lot of that is linked to technology. The world has become a lot more digital across many different sectors. Consumers are using digital applications, digital devices to do more. How do you see the approach in marketing terms changing from the days when I started first in marketing quite a long time ago, but how is marketing now evolving? How do you see it changing over the coming five or ten years in terms of the approach, the way in which companies are going to need to create awareness and influence and interest with consumers? Yeah, even look, even for me 20 years ago, you know, marketing, I think the fundamentals are still in place in a way. But of course, the means and the how has significantly changed. And it will continue to change because also the pace of change is accelerating. So, you know, even if you look over the last five years and what will happen over the next five years, I think you will see an acceleration, you know, of things. Ultimately, I think what it will come down to is AI will be is already a huge enabler, will become an even bigger enabler in terms of productivity. Meaning things like media plans, for example, targeting anything in terms of performance marketing in a way can be automated. Creatives can be built for performance marketing by AI probably much better than humans will be able to do it. The creativity will need to continue to come from us, luckily in a way. I would argue, but anything that can be done by a machine ultimately will probably be done better by a machine or through AI learning over the next five years. So I'm quite excited about that because, you know, the machines will probably do a much better job at targeting going forward. You know, they will be targeting with specific KPIs in mind. So it won't be random at all. It will be and they will continue to learn. It will be very much focused and very much laser targeted, bringing you the best ROI or rowers as you will based on your marketing spend, your input, your customer segments, your data that you will need to, you know, put in. I'm on this particular front. I'm quite excited about it because that also means we as marketers can really focus continue to focus on our core job, which is to drive creativity. Number one, and number two, to continue to create more value for the brand and ultimately for customers. So I'm quite excited about that because ultimately we should use it as a tool to enable us. Do you think companies are set up today to take advantage of artificial intelligence, machine learning, those kind of technologies? I know they're very rapidly increasing. And if you don't, what do you see as some of the big barriers that companies need to work their way through? I see it with us. I think we're ready to embrace it, but there are security concerns, of course. You know, how much data do you want to put in? How much of that is confidential? How much of that will ultimately also go and feed into the big machine and then it's also available to others? So I think there's all kinds of data, you know, concerns when it comes to security and privacy and confidentiality in a way. And then it's also, as you said, I think there's just a vast amount of supply at this point in time, you know, to weed out which exactly for your specific purposes is the best tool to use. And what are the guidelines in order to do so is probably number two because what you probably don't want is that everybody in your company, which probably to an extent is happening, is using something else. And you kind of get a kind of a mishmash of everything. So having a stance and having a point of view and giving out clear guidelines and communicating transparently about it and acknowledging that it's a reality is probably key. And you know, I think the ones that are able to figure this out rather quickly will also be benefiting much more quickly from the productivity gains. We're coming now towards the end of our conversation, but it's been great hearing some of the insights. So thinking about now, your next four or five years, what are some of the biggest priorities that are on your mind? Yeah, 100 percent. Look, we've, you know, I said, I've been here now a year. I think we used the last nine to 12 months to define us as a brand, you know, ultimately and being very clear about what our vision, our mission is cascade that to our 15,000 colleagues, you know, all around the world. And in a way, we're now ready to tell the world. So we're just rolling out a new visual identity and evolve brand fresh, new logo, new primary colors. You know, then I mentioned the app, our new fans of em all kind of refresh. So, you know, the brand is is appearing in a, you know, slightly, I would say modernized and contemporary way, building on very good foundations, which is great. And now we're preparing for the future, which is, you know, we want to continue, of course, to support this accelerated growth that we have, making sure that what we roll out is consistent across yet keeping some local identities. So the way we've designed also this brand refresh is that there's some consistency globally, but there's a relatively large amount that leaves freedom for the individual hotels to connect to local culture. And one of the beautiful things that this brand exemplifies is every hotel has a unique and bespoke fan, which, you know, on the other hand, also infiltrates into the corporate identity of each and single hotel. So we're continuing down that road. So for us, it's very clear that to continue to support this accelerated brand mission. And as I said before, it's to embed the brand-led guest-centric thinking from the very start. That's ultimately what I think will make the difference for us, and which will also help to roll out and achieve our ambition by more than doubling the portfolio in a consistent yet locally relevant manner so that more people around the world can hopefully stay with this beautiful brand and experience this, this incredible service. Well, I have one last more personal question to ask you. So you've moved from Europe to Hong Kong with your family. What's it like? Yeah, we love it. So we moved from Paris. We live three years in Paris, and we moved last year. I have two children. One is almost six, and the other one just turned three, and they love it. They absolutely love it. They go to international schools. We live on Hong Kong Island, but not on the part where the city is, but you go above the peak and then basically down, and you have a really nice couple of stretches of beach. So we live close to the beach. It's only 15 minutes from downtown, in a way. So you have this incredible juxtaposition almost of being in one of the busiest, most populated places on this earth, and then you drive 15 minutes, and you're on one of the most pristine beaches. This in this area, what many people don't know that you have almost 200 little islands in front of Hong Kong. So you have You know, an incredible conversation. combination of nature, 70% of Hong Kong is actually preserved nature. And this incredibly cool city, which still to me is an incredible combination of east and west, of course, due to British colonialism for 140 years. Absolutely. Well, fantastic. Thank you very much to you, Alex, for sharing such valuable insights. These conversations are always essential as we collectively as an industry try to advance and think about some of the challenges and opportunities we've had. We'll be back with another episode soon. I'm Tim Davis. This has been Alex, and this is "Setting the pace." Thank you for listening.