How to Cut Through the Bullsh*t in Modern Dating (ft. Sabrina Zohar)

Sabrina, welcome. What's up, Mark? It's so good to have you here. I'm so excited. I'm excited too, because so we've had the podcast for about a year. We've done maybe like half a dozen episodes on relationships dating had had dating experts on. And Drew's still single. I don't know what's wrong with him. It's a problem. I'm hoping you can tell me. We're supposed to be giving advice that works. Come on Drew. Oh Drew, I have so many questions. It's the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host Mark Manson. What are my supposed to give you? He's speechless. He's actually speechless. This would be fun if I'm like, okay Drew, let's go. So tell me mom and dad. I'm like, what else do we do? Let's not go there. How about we talk about you? How did you get into this whole crazy world of dating, online dating, social media? What was your story behind all that? So my story is a little bit like not traditional. I went to New York and I was 19 to go to acting school. And I was like, I wasn't very good at it. And then went to fashion, worked in fashion for like eight, nine years and just fucking hated it. Truth be told. And in 2017 my mom went to the doctor of the headache and they shed six brain aneurysms and they gave her like no chance of survival. And she came out okay. And it was like a true miracle. And so that was when I started therapy and started to understand like, holy shit, your mindset, even though you're given all of the terrible and negative could actually really be used for your positive because you can really get through things if depending on where you shift. Don't get me wrong. I still didn't get it at this time. I just was starting to understand that. And then fast forward, I was working. I started my clothing company software and was doing things. And then in 2022, I was supposed to be at Shark Tank. I am single in L.A. And it was at that moment where I started to realize like my anxiety was just it was getting worse. It wasn't really getting any better. And all of these things that we were ingesting were just constantly clickbait or do this to get this or manipulation. Like there was no accountability. There was no self-awareness. And I was ingesting it. And so I was dating and doing. And I was on set for Shark Tank. And I got sent home after 12 hours. And my life kind of like came crashing. And I was like, I've got nothing. I don't know what I'm going to do. And a friend of mine was like, hey, man, you're really good dating advice. I care always on podcasts. I think you should try. And so, of course, I had my own limiting beliefs being like, no one cares about me. And I was just like, you know, what do I have to lose? So I had like my Miley Cyrus Hannah Montana moment. I was like, TikTok will be one persona. And then Instagram is like the professional. And then the TikTok blew up. I started my podcast January 2023. I was like, let's let me give people what I've received from therapy and different modalities that actually moves the needle. And then we'll lead you to the result of like what it is that you want. But it starts and ends with you. And so I think that's really what motivated me to start this. And then it continued on by just putting out content and then organically seeing millions of people resonate with it. And I think at this point, like that's why Mark, I love your content so much. Because I think it's important that we cut through the bullshit and actually like give the advice that people need, not what they want to hear. Yeah. What has been the biggest surprise? Because I imagine after your audience kind of blew up and things took off, you got deluged with questions, problems, life stories. What has been the biggest surprise to you of what you hear from people? I think the biggest surprise is how, there's so many of my brain is like in six different ways. But I think what comes to mind first is how so many people really don't understand that like they have so much more power in agency than they give themselves credit for. And if we really just understood like, Hey, man, you're just dysregulated. Like that's why you feel like you're going to die. That's why you feel all of this. But I think so many people really are stuck in a place. And without really understanding like how do you tap into that? I'm seeing so much power just given away every single day of like I'll get these emails of like pages of how this person's just the worst human being. Like there is nothing redeeming, but at the end it's like, but I still love them. What do I do? And so I think it's done that. So I think that's the shock for me is how little people understand. I like realize that you have so much power within you. If you actually fucking take control and ownership of you and how you present yourself to people, it will change the way you date and have experiences. Yeah. Well, okay. That's that's a perfect spot then for the fuck of the week. We have this segment called the fuck of the week. What are we giving a fuck about? What are we not giving a fuck about? And I want to dive right into it with you with attachment styles, which is right right along that lane. How much of a fuck should we give about our attachment style going into this? There's kind of been a introduction of that language into the kind of a popular culture. And I think a lot of people are aware of it, but I think a lot of people only have a surface level understanding of it. And sometimes we get, I know for me anyway, I'm like, oh, I'm avoidant. And then it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. How much of a fuck should we really give about our attachment styles? What do you think? I think if we're looking like a one to a hundred, right? If I would say like 30%. And I know that people might be like, what? You talk about this. It's like, yeah, attachment styles are so you understand yourself. Attachment styles are so that you can be like, oh, cool. I'm not crazy. Like when I found out about anxious attachment, I was like, oh, there's a name for it. Okay. This is it. And it's a blueprint for me to be able to heal, right? And go, okay, where did I learn this from? Oh, what's the behavior of someone anxious? Like, God, this is how that navigates when I met my partner who's more avoidant. It's not about, I'm diagnosing you. You're the worst person in the world. It's okay. I understand that how I might behave would interact and you get triggered and things like that. I think we give way too many fucks on people like diagnosing others of like my avoidant, my narcissist. And it's like, well, well, you know so much about them that they're an avoidant or a narcissist, but yet we're still here. Attachment styles, I think there's been a misconception. I think a lot of people confuse like an avoidant attachment style with like avoidant personality disorder, right? Two completely different things. Avoidant, like any attachment style is really just how did you connect with your caregivers? And that's how how did you attune, right? Learn the attunement. Somebody secure, right? For anybody who's maybe not sure, we've got four major ones. Yeah, let's do that. Yeah. Right. You know, for argument's sake, there's like four biggies. There's the secure and then there's the three insecure. So the secure attached person comes from a home where they were taught that like love is safe. Love is something that you can give and receive. They have an understanding of independence and interdependence, right? So it's like, you're not afraid of conversations. You know that it's important to speak up because you were raised in a home where your feelings mattered, your thoughts mattered. That's the pinnacle we all want to get to, enjoy climbing the mountain. Then we go to the insecure attachment styles and we've got three major ones. Of course, there's amalgamations, but we've got the avoidant. We've got the anxious and then we have this disorganized. The avoidant attachment is when triggered, right? This isn't that like this person just avoids conversation when triggered, which a trigger is a cutier nervous system that you're in danger. Something happens that to someone else might not be a big deal. You go inwards, right? To the people that are avoidant, the messaging early on was like emotions aren't safe. You could be potentially like ridiculed or judged for having emotions. Maybe you had emotionally unavailable parents. So there is a discomfort with someone else's emotions and expressing your own. Then the flip side of it, we go to the anxious, right? I am, hi. Nice to meet you. Stand up and be counted. Yeah. So the poster child of it. And essentially with that means it's like inconsistency, right? I had a narcissistic father and a people pleasing mother. I had a father that was always in and out. So what did I learn? Some love is not safe. I have to scream and yell for it. I have to earn it, right? And so the anxious attacher is so uncomfortable in their own body. I need you to tell me I'm going to be okay. So it's a lot of codependency in that regard. Then the disorganized is like that amalgamation. You've ever seen someone that's a super push pill. One minute they're amazing. And then the next year, like I feel like I don't know who you are, that's the disorganized. They want love. So they'll come closer and then they're terrified of the rejection or the intimacy and they pull away. The reason it's important that we understand where these manifests is because people will be like, "Drew, you're an avoidant." And it's like, I'm sorry, how did you know that about me? I haven't been triggered with you. Versus, hey, you just don't share anything. It's like, well, maybe that person's just an asshole. Right? Like they don't have to be an attachment style. Yeah, right. I've been called that too. Yeah. Yeah. They're not mutually exclusive. Correct. But yeah, like moral of the story is like I think, "Entachment styles are important so you understand yourself and you understand how your triggers manifest in other people." And also so that we have some self-awareness of, "Hey, if I'm super anxious and I might want to text a lot, Mark, you and I are dating hypothetically, you're not, right? You're like, "Hey, I'm significantly more secure. I'm not going to use this to manipulate you when I'm going to use this as is, hey, this is my own shit. Here's what I can learn about myself and how we can actually have a successful relationship." Yeah. It's interesting to see, I think I first wrote about attachment theory like 2012, maybe 2013, but this has happened with a number of psychological concepts over the years, not just attachment theory, but I think attachment theory is kind of the most obvious one that I've seen. The way TikTok and Instagram culture have taken what is really solid theories with a bedrock of research and then twisted them into these status games and coping mechanisms of like some guy doesn't call you back, so it's like, "Oh, well, he's avoided." And you're actually just really coping. Like, it's not, you don't actually know anything about this person, but it's become this weird, I don't even know what the word is for it, but you see it with all sorts of mental health concepts, that it's just become this like weird signaling game on social media and I actually think it's toxified a lot of these concepts in a weird way. Like, I think in a certain way it's working against people at this point. 100% I couldn't agree more. And it's interesting, it's funny that we talk about, "Oh, well, if someone says like, oh, they're avoidant and you're like, let's talk, that's cliche, anxious behavior, right? Diagnosing other people, making external. I'm so uncomfortable with myself, So I'm going to analyze you because if I analyze you I don't have to worry about me I don't have to think about what's coming up anxious people are avoidant and wouldn't people are anxious and so it's that I think what we've had is like TikTok University has now so many people have graduated that think they understand these really nuanced concepts and they've moved it into like a bumper sticker right that's what my partner he says if he can fit into 140 characters or less if he wanted to he would if they like you know and it's like I'm sorry so everything is just chocked up to that one statement all humans all almost nine billion of us are the same but makes it a lot less fun if we start to think of it that way so I think to your point it's like narcissism people will say oh he's a narcissist it's like no that dude just didn't like you and narcissists is a very different thing but I think again when we get into that like I want to heal other people I want to diagnose other people and when we try to diagnose other people what we end up doing is self abandoning and I think what gets lost too is that you can actually be in an insecure relationship and it can still work out like you can that's a big one yeah yeah I mean you you actually I mean this is a huge part of attachment theory is that actually the primary way you heal the way you learn to regulate yourself is within a relationship is by like having that secure boundary with somebody so that every time you freak out and you get triggered nothing horrible happens yeah and yet so much of the advice is oh stay away from avoiding so stay away from the age or whatever so much the advice is that it's like well learn to work with it wait for the most perfectly secure person on earth who doesn't exist by the way or see the there's this one guy I'm not gonna name names even though I want to he drives me insane his content because it was like it's all this stuff look I'm gonna teach you out and he's like a secure man it's gonna heal your anxious attachment and I'm like I'm gonna pull my fucking hair like that's not how it works I'm I have had my own anxiety and my partner has as avoidance we are both incredibly it's called earned security you can absolutely earn your security in our relationship they don't worry about any of those things in life am I anxious yeah yeah I'm still as I are but there's still an element of understanding like you can heal through that and two insecure people can heal but the key here is like what are you are you doing the work are you actually trying to implement and grow and change your mindset and learn new things or is it well every time I get triggered the person walks out and you're like okay well we're not making progress so I think if two people are very committed to actually progressing a relationship doesn't need to start off being the most secure people but like to your point if I'll give you an example when I first are dating my partner my smart ass was like he's not texting me enough and like he was very clear from the beginning like I want to build a connection with you not on the phone and after like maybe six or seven dates I text him saying like hey being all cute saying you know I'd love like a little bit more texting in between our dates to feel more connected to you and he went came right with a boundary of like hey great to hear from you gonna be honest and it was just like he's like I don't connect via the phone I work nine hours on a screen all day the last thing I want is a mini screen in my hand while I'm connecting with my friends and family and my dog if that doesn't work for you completely understand if not I'd love to take you out to dinner and get to know you in person yeah what a thought it was wow that's just so it's so simple though and people we complicated way too got that much yeah and it's like and and and then that's that moment where I could have chosen fuck this guy he's the void and instead I was like no Sabrina challenge yourself you can heal and then I never brought the texting up in our per our relationship progressed to like well here we are two years later because I think what we see in the beginning is a lot of these triggers like I mean here we go into the mental state the mental aspect of it is like you go from the prefrontal cortex into the amygdala and we go into that limbic part of our brain and you're operating at an old operating system for when you're six it's not gonna be a shock that every little thing is gonna cause you to say I can't do this I want to go away because there's no goddamn coping mechanisms or tools to push through and say let me sit in the discomfort and we actually maybe try to grow through this because if every single guy you date it's the same issue we have to stop blaming everybody else here's all the time every the only thing all of the people you date having common is you so if it all fails spectacularly the same way yes guess what that's kind of where I was talking about I alluded to it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy to like when I learned all this I actually studied this in like graduate school and everything like that so I I went the other way and went too deep into it and intellectualize it too much and then I kind of like oh yeah I have these avoidant tendencies I'm avoidant now I'm gonna act that out for the longest time and it's only been within the last few years that I've realized actually I'm pretty anxious to I'm a little bit more disorganized than I thought I was and then I also realized that there's actually some kind of redeeming qualities about my avoidance and my anxiety that don't have to necessarily be you know thrown out you don't got to throw the baby out with the bath water necessarily and so yeah I don't know I kind of came to this realization that I don't have to just be avoidant all the time right you know it's okay that I can be anxious and it's like you just just expressing that to somebody and being very open and honest upfront about it has been huge for me anyway yeah total game treasure what's it's validating yeah I think it's like my I remember once when I first started my partner I said I'm anxious and he looked at me and he goes you have anxiety we don't need to self-identify and I was like good call you're right I don't need to self-identify I'm not an anxious person I have anxiety it's a part of me like the thousand other fucking parts of me that exist and for you with the avoidance as well it's like intellectualizing wouldn't be a shock right the avoidance the avoidant people want to avoid the emotion so let me intellectualize and if I can just cognitively understand this but the emotions I don't need them but then finding a pendulum that doesn't swing severely could even start with saying sure this might make me uncomfortable but I'm learning and growing that acceptance that not belittling not I'm an avoidant I'm an avoidant and then our cognitive bias is like all right so avoid instead it's like can we show a little bit in compassionate acceptance first within ourselves and then the people that we're meeting that like I hate to break it to a lot of people just because you show up on a date and have a good time doesn't mean everyone felt that and it's not something that we need to take personally but we can actually like grow through all of this stuff 100 percent yeah how much do you think of the unwillingness to sit with the discomfort and grow through this stuff is just having too many exits having too many options outside like because I don't know I think back when I used to date this is pre-app so it's actually fucking hard to meet somebody like you actually had to put work in to go meet somebody you had to suffer through anxiety risk embarrassing yourself make a fool of yourself in front of your friends so when you met somebody and there was even an inkling of chemistry there was kind of this like well let's just let's really try to make this work because I don't want to have to go go to the fucking bar and do that again right and I feel like today it's just so easy to get back on the app and start swiping right that you know people don't feel that that opportunity cost I think it's a double-edged sword because like to your point okay yeah we used to be able to go out and like meet somebody and it's like oh that's a beautiful experience like I remember those days when in New York you're like I passed my number to someone and people like look at you like your shocked you're like yeah yeah I interacted with a human and I potentially could have gotten rejected I didn't like I got laid instead and so I was a good ending but I think week I think we know like anything it's like technology what a beautiful thing right wouldn't have met you guys if it wasn't for technology wouldn't have a fucking voice if it wasn't for technology but then the pendulum swings to where you're like oh but technology has brought all of these bad things and I think sure is it easier of course it is I can just get back on the app I don't have to deal with it and I think that now we have this weird like subculture of like judging people for being on the apps of like oh I want to meet someone in person and it's like here's a fun fact 68% of couples meet online now so enjoy have fun with the other 40 a 32% of where you're going to meet these people but I think what I usually get curious about when I ask okay what don't you like about the apps well they're uncomfortable and like I don't like that you know these people go stir they don't answer and I'm like oh but you think approaching someone in the wild that you have no idea at least on a map I have a baseline of knowing that you want to fuck me right you think I'm attractive we swipe versus in the wild I'm walking up I don't know you could have a wife you could be you know you could do whatever you could be yeah it does it could be a thousand things that doesn't scare that doesn't make you uncomfortable and we so I think what it gives us ease of like well I don't have to do it oh I could just stay single I don't have to be bothered and I think what the apps have really done is like they've triggered us but then they also allow you to avoid your triggers because in dating it's messy it's ugly it's rejection you're dealing all of these things but you can also grow and I think yeah back in the day when my parents met it was like oh that's nice like you could just meet someone through a friend and it's like then on that same token we have a lot of divorce because a lot of people got married saying why don't I want to keep doing this so let's just make this work right so I think we also have to look at like are you being a better buyer and like are you actually invested in your health and wellness and growth because I was on the apps I started when I was like 18 and a half like they came out when I was there and I was like what's this I met my partner in hinge I went different version of myself than the girl that used to date on those apps because you have to learn and grow otherwise you'll be 60 and still swiping in the same way because is it easier to avoid doing the work yeah yeah just get back on the app but how fulfilling is that yeah have you ever because I know you didn't but have you gone on like your friends apps and stuff to see what it's like I mean I've watched my friends do it and it's funny there was a period in my life it was fun my wife and I we met I think like six months before tender came out okay and then while we were dating all of our friends were getting on tender and it was so cool at the time like everybody loved it so much that my wife and I we used to joke we're like maybe we should break up for a week just like do the tender thing and then we'll get back together and but it's funny because it fast-forward like five six seven years and and all of our friends were like oh my god you guys are so like you got out just in time yeah you caught the last train out of the station and the ride on to running behind ragged and that's the thing it's like the casino is always gonna win right like the apps are made to there to make money but that doesn't mean you still can't also like trick this system yeah it's It's like any piece of technology. It's more about how you use it. It's not like gonna fix your life for you. You have to be conscious on how you use it and how you implement it. - You guys have completely got ahead of me. - You didn't read the homework. - We're fucking drooling. - I tell you didn't read this, I meant. - Drooling's docket is dead. - Oh my god. - Our next segment is brilliant or bullshit. - In all due fairness, I didn't really finish college. - I know that's not it. - That's all good. - No, we know a lot. - Thank you. - I don't know. - Why can't I party through college too much too? We forgot a lot. - I was drunk, I don't remember. (upbeat music) - Okay, this is what I want to do for brilliant or bullshit. This is the segment, we're inside. - We're inside. - Yes, please. I'm trying to keep you on the road as always. - I know. - Brilliant or bullshit though. Sabrina, we do, we'll introduce an article or a research study or something like that. And we talk about whether that's brilliant or bullshit. For you, the brilliant or bullshit is about dating apps. Okay. There's been some recent data. Yes, you said that 68% of people meet on an app now. There's some recent data though that is suggesting that maybe apps have kind of peaked a little bit, right? So in from 2020, there were about 287 million downloads of dating apps worldwide. That's down to 237 million, down 50 million in just three years, that's in 2023. A number of users has went down as well. People aren't as willing to pay, the profits are either growing very slowly or going down. And there has been an increase in offline meetups. Like Eventbrite has seen a 42% increase in attendance in in-person single events just in 2023 alone, a 42% jump. - Awesome. - So now that said, there are some like niche apps and things that are doing pretty well field, which is like the Polyamorous One Grindr for gay men, that sort of thing. Where do you land on dating apps in general? Brilliant bullshit, you can punch a little bit and say both and tell us why, that's okay. - I'm gonna have to do the lame one and go both. And I'll tell you why, because I met my partner in an app, so I can't totally improve who it would be like, they're fucking terrible, except for the one. So I think what's happened though, and I'll do fairs, I've been off the apps for two years. And so what I've seen, 'cause it's kind of that same thing, what I've seen is like the apps have gone, we've skewed so far from what the intention of it was. Like, Bumble came out saying, you know what, we realized women don't wanna make the first move and it's like, oh, that was what, you're fucking app. - Yeah. - Was that, but that's the biggest- - That was the sole point of being app. - That's like, Mark, you coming out being like, I'm not gonna curse anymore. And you're like, what are you doing here? So it's like, I think that because the apps have, I think a lot of us have lost faith in the apps, right? Like, first of all, there's so many bots. It's like hard to even now navigate who's real and who's not. It's really difficult to even see like, are the people intentional, right? And I also think that, you know, we have this resurgence, like I was saying in the last year where everyone's like, I wanna be off the app. So I wanna meet people. And so Eventbrite's usually my go-to. I'll be great going to Eventbrite find things. Like when I'm gonna tell, I had to like a high club. I went to pottery, my partner's a big cookie says that go to the farmer's market. You see a guy there on a Sunday morning alone. It's a good on shot. - Terror wants, apparently, if something ever happens to my wife, I'm just gonna go stand in the middle of everyone. - Well, then I'm not gonna lie. That was my playground when I lived here. I got it on and sit outside and just look like a snack and just wait to see everybody come towards me. - Yes. - But this is the thing though. So Mark's, you've never used a dating app. I don't think, right? - Yeah. - And I've been off them for six years. Even though I'm single, I just haven't used them for six years. So I have no idea what's going on. So that's why we're asking you about this too. But the bots, that wasn't a thing when I was using them back in 2017, you know. - So many. It's like overwhelming. - Yeah. - Oh, or, you know, hinge hired it. So Tinder had a $500 membership. You get $500, $500, $500, $500, $500, $500, that was released last year. Hinge hired their price. I think it starts at 50 and it goes up to like 150. And that's, I think, I think what a lot of people are seeing is like, there's a misconception. Women seem to think like there's so many options and it's like apps are usually like 70% men actually. It's a predominant male driven app. But it's a lot of men that the women are not, you know, it's like-- - It's all the men that are scumbags and-- - It's a lot of trash, right? We'll just say that. - And so I think, you know, there's also that kind of component as well is that there's a lot of, there are a lot of people. It's not like, you know, when I met my partner, he was not my type and it's not a negative. It's not like he was not, I wasn't attracted to him, but he's not the cookie cutter fucking same thing I always went for. That I think is what I personally mean by like be a better buyer. Like if you're matching with somebody and you're going on and you're like, oh, they're just hot. It's like, okay, well then what do you think is going to happen in the depth of this conversation? And you can't be shocked when, oh wow, you want the guy that's six, five blue eyes finance, all of that stuff. And it's like, oh, shocker, he didn't want to go, he doesn't want a relationship. - He doesn't text you back and he's seen five other girls. Oh, crazy. - Who could have guessed? - Yeah, he didn't see that coming. And so I think that's also the element. It's like 90% are going for the one percent and then they're getting so upset when it doesn't happen. But yet if we really think about the day to day, like when I lived in LA, don't get me wrong, there's attractive people, not to the extent on the apps that I was seeing. Where you're like, oh, babe after babe, you don't walk around seeing that many people. And so I also think the apps have really caused this just unrealistic expectation of what the dating market is. And you're like, babe, you're not fucking Blake Lively, you're not going to get a Ryan Reynolds. Like let's also just be cognizant of what it is that we're coming with. And then what it is that you're going to get. - Yeah, you touched on two different theories that I've had at different points. One, my primary one, when I look at dating apps and I talk to all my friends who use dating apps and they're really frustrated with them, the first thing that I notice is that I think the dating apps are unintentionally nudging people in the sorting and filtering in ways that are not helpful. - Yeah, one of the most obvious and common things is that we just, it's what you just said, we don't actually know what we want. We think we want this list of traits in a person, but the person that we actually end up attracted to is often completely different. Or the person who's actually good for us ends up being completely different than that. You know, when I think about a lot of the women I've dated in my life, probably half of them I wouldn't have swipe right on, right? It's like I met them through a friend or I met them at a party. And it was over the course of multiple hours that I started to become attracted to them. And after a couple of dates, I started to like realize things about them that were really interesting and intriguing. So the apps skew that, they mass that. They don't allow you to filter for the correct things that actually work in a relationship. I agree with you about the skewed expectations. The bot thing is super interesting. And I, you know, one thing I just had this thought while you were talking, if you look at any sort of platform or social network online, anything from Facebook to Twitter to YouTube to whatever, there's always a small minority of people who fucking ruin it for everybody in the house. (laughing) It's rational to the amount of bad actors required to fuck a platform is actually extremely small. You really only need like one or two percent of people on any given platform to be total assholes and terrorists to ruin the platform for everybody else. And I get the sense that that is what's happened with the dating app is that there's just a small minority of people who are really bad actors who probably swipe on right on 2,000 different people and then are just like sending dick pics and like sending offensive shit. And it ruins the experience for everybody else. - And we also remember too, like what are the apps actually doing dopamine, right? You're really a reward drug like this. I mean, my ass is on my phone and I'm like, this is a green and stop. Like, you don't need this. And it's like, and I don't even, you know, I like have many times will be like, you close the app just to open it right back up like four seconds later. Like I, the amount of times I've done that without noticing is concerning. And so when we think about the dating apps, what I also really see and it's like, I'd be curious your thoughts because you joined before and you're not on them. The, almost like feticization it I want to say, but like this perclivity of these digital relationships, right, like it's just, there's so much emphasis on like, I want to be texting and why am I not seeing their name pop up on my phone and why aren't they contacting me? I even heard from them that like, I either get when people are like quick to make a plan. Like, I'm that type. We talk my partner and I talk for an hour and then he was like, Hey, let me get your number. Like, let's go to dinner. Right. Don't great. Let's do this off the phone and met this person. Yay. But there are people that'll go two, three months with texting every day or like, I'll get rid of we spoke every single day. We had four hour phones, face times and calls and blah, blah. And then he told me he doesn't want a relationship. It's like, 'cause digital nonsense doesn't equate to that person, they're writing a check, but that doesn't mean they're caching it. Yeah. And I see that no much with the digital landscape is that I think the apps allow you to get into this fantasy, right? Like, I was hurt. I would be walking down the street and all of a sudden you get the match and it's like, your heart is racing. You're like, oh my god, this is gonna message me and then he does and you're like, I don't know when we're gonna go back. It's just as high and then leave it to my brain. I'm already planning our wedding, right? I'm already going into like, he's been to asthma. Oh my god, I've never been to asthma and I wanna go there. And then before I even met this guy, I have created this entire fantasy. So we can't be shocked that you're so gutted and devastated when it doesn't work out, when you've already planned your wedding and then this person doesn't even show up for a date. Yeah. So I think that's just that, that grieve, like the sensitivity to rejection and I get it and nobody wants to be rejected, but I also think that that is part of life, right? Like we have to toughen up. When you used to go out and approach women that would walk off. Fucking suck. Yeah, it was rough. Yeah, the texting thing is really interesting because it's a fat simile of intimacy, but it's not real intimacy. It's like an imagined intimacy and you get to create this drama in your head, but real intimacy is messy and uncomfortable and kind of awkward and you know, yeah, it's not what you see in the romantic comedies or anything. like that. It's not glamorous at all. It's not. It's really not. What I tend to notice, you know, people who kind of perpetually struggle with their relationships, there's, there's, I don't want to call it childish, but it is childish. There's a childish attachment to just worshiping romance and like prioritizing it above everything else when actually, I mean, romance is great. Don't give me wrong. Like, big fan of romance, but it's not, it's not even near the top of the totem pole. My friend, Britt Frank, is a brilliant neuropsychotherapist and she always taught me the love addict, right? Like, the person that's addicted, she's like, their biggest fear isn't abandonment. It's intimacy. That's why they're addicted to it because you can just bounce, bounce, bounce, but true intimacy, for like you're saying, I didn't feel intimate with my partner, not even just physically, emotionally, because we were texting all the time and I was creating. It's like, I felt that intimacy because he said something to me. It pissed me off. I answered and he validated me and I was like, I feel so seen, I feel so comfortable with you. That was intimacy. I've to express myself and say, you're being an asshole, please don't do that. And he said, you're right. I'm sorry. Oh, you're an apology. Thank you. That, to me, is that intimacy versus is we're planning the fucking stars in the sky and we're talking about all these things. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. They want you to go and meet their family, but you still have yet to know their last name. Like, there is a grave disconnect. And it's easy, right? It's fun. You get to write this entire novel that's not going to actually come out. I never thought about that before. Absolutely enabling love addiction or romance addiction, like I could totally see that. Right. Well, that was, that was like a big reason I got off of them. I think more of what you're talking about where people wanted that digital relationship and there was kind of this addiction to it. And I was always just like, we would match and I'd be like, do you want to meet? I don't want to sit here and text back and forth. And so many of them, no, no, no. I want to text back and forth. I'm like, I do not. I just don't want to do it. And then, and then a couple of years after, well, just within the last couple of years, I guess I've seen like ads for, oh, here's an AI app to help your dating profile. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Don't even change your picture, changes your relationship, it writes your profile for you. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? This is what people are doing now. You know what's next? I don't know. You know what apps are coming out now? Because we were, my partner and I were part of one and it shifted and we were like, we're out. We're not doing this. Yeah. It's writing, it writes the messages for you. And like he's just funny. I remember I had a client and he was not, have you like in his 60s and he, oh, he loved to date his 20 year old. And I was like, kind of Jesus, like the sugar that this didn't work out. And so we were on a call one day and we're doing these, like, can you help me do my profile? And so the way I like to work is I'll like, type it out and I kind of need to think and I'll send it over. Like, okay, this would be a good prompt. I didn't know he was just copying and pasting everything I did. And so it's this beautiful thought provoking profile. I mean, I did a day, I'm good job writing this. And then he, like in the next session, he's like, you know, I understand I'm not having luck on the apps. Like I'm getting so many matches and I'm like, okay, can you show me a couple of the messages? And it's like this beautiful prompt that the woman responded to. And it's just, hey, sexy. I'm like, oh, my God. And it's like that words, you can, you can mask it, right? And it's like, I think what we also need to remember too, because I hear this every day of like, men just say what a woman wants to hear. And it's like, so you're that unoriginal. You think that he just knows everything you specifically, me, Sabrina Zohar wants to hear. Because like, maybe you don't. And I think what we really need to understand is like, come home to yourself. I'd rather be rejected for me as I am than be rejected for this version that I am. That's not even fucking me. Yeah. I saw, there was a, am I the asshole reddit thread the other day? And it was super interesting actually. So it was a guy saying that him and his girlfriend, every time that him and his girlfriend had a fight, she would go, leave the room, get on chat GBT, basically describe the fight to chat GBT and ask chat GBT for rebuttals and like arguments against her boyfriend. And then she would come back 30 minutes later with this like, perfect, outlined argument with like bullet point explanations of all the reasons why he's wrong. And he said he was like, I've asked her to stop using chat GBT and our personal arguments and she says I'm being sensitive and I'm refusing to admit that I'm wrong and all these things that he's like, am I the asshole? I was just like, holy shit. What world are we coming into? I'm curious what were the comments. I didn't look at the comments. But that's the case for me is when the people are like, you are the asshole and you're like, what are we? I feel like my experience is that in my the asshole subreddit is like, their compass is usually pretty aligned. I got it. There's some hope for humanity. But no, it's true. I see that every day of like, even I've had podcasts guests on were like, man, your content's amazing. And then in person, you're like, oh, you don't actually know any of this. You scripted it. The entirety of this, but you can't have an honest conversation with me where we're coming up with our own ideas. And that's that disconnect. And that's why my partner and I left the app. We were working on it. I was like, I want to teach you how to fish. We have got to stop just giving the fish because we're seeing it. You start to look like Gen Z is going to be that stops in 2027. That's officially like Ben were officially into alpha. And now what that means, it's like, wait a minute. So we are ready or looking or I apologize, alpha is done in 2027, then the next one. So we're ready to go and fucking bait at this point or whatever's next I'm assuming. So if we even just look at generationally, it's like, okay, millennials, all right, we did a lot. Like, there's the Gen I and the millennials. But then if I look between millennials and Gen Z, it's a huge disconnect of like, I don't owe you anything. I did a video that went viral instead of ghosting say this and it hurt my soul. How many people were like, I'd rather ghost than get this. It sounds like HR. And it's like, yo, dude, it's just a fucking blunt and direct. Hey, I'm not interested in pursuing this. Take care. I don't want to waste any more of your time. But that one girl said, why would I send that if I would be so heartbroken to receive that? Why would I want to hurt someone else? And I was like, I'm sorry. What? And it's just we are and they were getting more and more fragile of this like, I can't handle anything on my own. The internet, someone else needs to validate me and we're getting further away from ourselves. I've used chat GBT before. That shit does not know what the fuck they're talking about all the time. So if you're facing your arguments on that, chat GBT is literally the average of all human experience. Therefore, it is mediocrity in body. So if we just put it into code, it's true. If we rely on a crutch like that, then we want, we can't be surprised why human connection is becoming sparser. Because we're attaching. We're not connecting. It's like, I need you. I don't want you. I have to have you in my life. It's fear. It's anxiety. I need this versus connecting is like, it's slow. It takes a minute. I need to know who you are. I need emotional safety. I need intimacy. I need trust. And I think we've really gotten further and further from that because, I mean, let's also be honest. I'm 34. I don't have kids. Not sad about that by any means. We are now in a generation where that's cool, right? I could be in my mid 30s and not have kids. But then we're between, sociolet, like, what is the world in the internet saying and the body count conversations and the red pill bullshit. It's like, we have a lot of noise. Yeah. So if chat GBT is where you're getting the sum of all the parts, I'm a little worried. Yeah. The point you brought up about the emotional safety is, I definitely see that more in Gen Z. But this prioritization of emotional comfort over anything else, this idea that if something is upsetting or hurtful or uncomfortable, then that protecting you from that sets priority above everything else, you know, fuck honest communication, fuck sharing your values, standing for something, having integrity, if it makes somebody uncomfortable, then it shouldn't be done. I think that it's just such a wrong way to approach life in so many ways. And I think relationships in particular more than anything else in life fundamentally requires discomfort, being willing to upset somebody and be upset by somebody and be able to handle that materially as an adult and not just like, fucking fly off the handle. And it worries me, I mean, this kind of, this precedence of emotional safety is, I see it having pernicious effects all across society in a bunch of different domains. But relationships literally can't function if you're not willing to be uncomfortable around somebody else. Like that is, in many ways, the definition of intimacy is 100% being willing to be uncomfortable around somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just be messy and ugly and yourself, right? And be loved for that. What's the same as like, there's an artist, I don't know who these people are, I don't keep up with like the pop culture stuff. But she canceled her tour because like, she was having, she said, my mental health needs it. And then when you actually look by, like, what do you mean your mental health needs it? Like, it's your fucking job. You're a musician. Like, you need to go out and it was because she made a statement politically and people gave her backlash. And she said, well, you know, it hurt me and it's like, I'm sorry, what fucking alternate reality are you in? Yeah. That I could just say, well, I don't like what you said to me. So I'm just going to cancel my, my entire everything. Yeah. And that's okay. And then you see the polarizing. Some people attacking her saying, how could you do this? And then there's people defending her saying, what she's protecting her mental health. But then we have to look at where's the line, right? Where are we so disconnected from reality that we're like, you know, you're mental health? And then when is it like, hey, I think you should prioritize your mental health? Right. I mean, there is, yeah, there is a certain point where canceling your own job, harming your career, fucking over thousands of fans to protect your mental health is a sign of poor mental health. Like we need that advisor, a functional person, doesn't protect their mental health by just like ending everything they're doing in their life and sitting at home on the couch and bed rotting or whatever. Right. And it's like, and that's to your point. And that's relationships now is it's like, I don't want to deal with this. This is hard. I don't like it. I'm uncomfortable. And it's like, yeah, but that's how you grow. I really feel like we've over corrected as a culture and that like if you look 50 to 100 years ago, everything was like tough and up, stop complaining, you know, just get on with it. Yeah. You know, it's just like trauma everywhere and people are like bearing it, suppressing it, you know, pushing it down, and I think we've gone on too far to the other side today, where it's like, I'm uncomfortable. I'm not gonna go to work today. - Yeah, like it's hot. I'm just not gonna go outside. And you're like, "What, just go for the fucking walk." Like just do something, 100%. And it's, it bums me out because I think, and that's personally why I think like, when I came out creating content, it was different, right? It's because I'm the first to be like, "Oh wow, oh my God, that guy treated you like shit." Okay, what was your part in this? And it's like this, "Well, what do you mean, my, were you blaming me?" Never said blame, never said shame, never attacked you for it. I'm asking for accountability. Because that's what, for me, that's a changed my fucking life, was when I stopped blaming my external, it's happening to me. No, it's happening for me. A girl opened your fucking eyes and stood to see the lay of the land. Because if I didn't lose everything that I lost, I wouldn't have gained everything that I gained along the way. And if I had stayed comfortable and stayed safe, I would probably still be living in my mold-ridden apartment in Venice. Really, really sad. And probably health getting even worse. - We heard all about the mold-ridden apartment before we went live. (laughing) Because you guys are on this journey with me. - That's another podcast. (laughing) I just go back to the agency thing you were talking about though. That's the main part. And so I think, yeah. So we're landing on dating apps somewhere in between. It sounds like, even though we just shit all over them for the past 15 minutes. - I think there's a blessing in a curse, right? Like I think you can win and you can lose, but I think ultimately at the end of the day, if I can succinctly say this, regulate your nervous system, do the fucking work on yourself. And it's an addition to it's not instead of, and too many people put everything on the app. And it's like, yo, use it passively. Allow it to be on your phone like every other app that there is, but it doesn't define you. And I think that's, we need to remove the importance we put on these apps for us to be able to interact with these apps appropriately. - I wonder what a functional dating app would actually look like, you know, the price increase, I find intriguing because, allow me to defend it for a second. It creates a barrier to entry, right? So a lot of the riffraff and the poor actors and the bots and everything, if it's 50 bucks a month, it's not gonna be worth it for those people. Whereas the people who are way more serious and actually are gonna put a lot of conscious thought into it, they'll probably be more likely to spend that much money. I also just imagine that like some sort of universal catch-all dating app probably isn't possible, like you probably need to segment it in certain ways. So you need to segment people by communities or religious beliefs or backgrounds or whatever. - That's what a niche apps I think are. - Well, are you guys familiar with those, are we dating the same guy Facebook groups? - Oh yeah, I've heard. - Well, I was like, really? Let's just even touch on that. It's the same thing I feel about that is like, when I was creating my dating app, we were like, I wanna be a bit intentional with daters and people would write and go, well, you know, you shouldn't let people on there that like, do this. And it's like, okay, but here's the thing. That's your perspective, right? This person did all these things and I'm like, but I could talk to 20 other women that maybe they dated and maybe that wasn't their experience. Who am I to say, Mark, you're not allowed in? Nope, because you're not intentional enough. And it's like, well, just because I said I wanna relationship didn't mean I want one with Drew, that could mean I want one with someone else. Where is the line, right? And so I think if we niche, love the niche of like, hey, it's for this, where it becomes blurry is this like, same thing as those Facebook groups. I think, I get it, I understand why they exist, but I also on the other side have a huge issue with them because some people have lost their jobs. And it's like, why was he losing his job because you guys had a fight personally at home? Yeah. And I think we, we're trying to control too much. Like, I think if we can niche it like, listen, there's a sugar daddy website, good, go! That's where you go for this. When it comes to the dating apps, I think you're right. If we make this one size fits all, everybody fits in here, it's like, well, they don't. But then I'm like, okay, how can we make this about more intentionality? Okay, well, what if you just have money and you could buy into it? And it's like, you know what, I go back to, I gotta trust myself. I gotta trust my gut that if I see Mark on the app and I'm like, he paid on here, oh wait, I'm not gonna assume that he's here for the right reasons. And I'm not going to assume that he wants me like that. I'm gonna go and say, hey, it's just another way to meet somebody that might be like-minded. I think you see what I'm saying, it's like, we gotta, I love all of these things. We gotta also be the cognizant of how we're interacting with them too because I think that's the 90% of the battle. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Well, cool, stick a break. Sure. (upbeat music) All right, we're back. We've got some audience questions. We do, we have one in particular from Lauren on YouTube. And we've touched on a few of these things already so we can kind of tie this all together, I think. It was a very long question, so I've edited it down. So Lauren, I hope we're getting- Haven't you noticed relationship questions are like small books? Disertations, yes. That's, especially through emails, but this wasn't even in YouTube comment and it was pretty long, but it's a good one. So Lauren says, "I'm 29 and have been single for six years after working through codependency issues from past relationships. Now my standards are so fucking high, but I'm frustrated with the dating scene as most men I seem to me are immature or irresponsible. A lot of them seem to want a mommy, not a partner, and the few men that I have clicked with don't want long-term exclusive relationships. How do I stay patient and optimistic while searching for a genuine compatible partner without feeling disillusioned?" I think there's probably a larger question of expectations in here that we can hit on to. - I was about to say, now here. Thank you for writing in and we appreciate all this and I say this with love, there's a grave fucking disconnect. Oh, all the guys that you like, oh, they don't want the things that you do, but yet these other people you're not interested in, there's a disconnect because that if you're, what are you attracted to these people that don't want the same things as you, right? You've done all this work, right? And you're showing up like that. What questions are we asking on the first date? Are we gauging consistency? Consistency doesn't mean for all my girls that the sky texts you every single day at the same time that means reliability words and actions are aligning. So we really want to start to like zoom out a little bit and for me I would look and go way to have some holes here. But in general, how do you stay hopeful in things? It's like, okay, well, this is part of doing the work. Like you had said earlier about the mental health comment. When you do the work, you know there's a lot of people that aren't and that you understand that it's not something personal. And that, yeah, if I'm gonna be going out and dating, I know I might be something unique and different, but I also know that that person exists out there. And so I'm not gonna be upset if it doesn't work out with these schmows that I'm meeting on the internet. And I think that's that expectation management that we were also talking about of, I get it. Hey, it's frustrating. You can feel upset, like please, have it, be annoyed. But we also have to remember that doesn't mean that tomorrow you might not meet somebody. And so if you're disillusioned and you're going out and it's always well, everybody wants a mommy, cognitive bias, we have to start to look, what kind of buyer are you being then? And who are these people that you're going out with? - To me, the red flag is, every man I connect with doesn't want to settle down, have a long term relationship and it's like, well, why are you connecting with those? Like what do you use your language? What are you shopping for, right? Maybe you should try to connect with a different type of person. - Usually too, it's like, let's think about it. Those guys that don't want the relationship, it's like, let me guess he was charming. He was really lovely. He was not super emotional. It was a little bit more reserved. It's like, yeah, because this person does not want that so they're not letting you in and that's where I'd be like, what are you connecting on? - Yeah. - Because are they really letting you in? But they're not being that vulnerable because they don't want a relationship, okay? So then, like you said. - They're probably fun and exciting and they go to lots of cool parties and, you know, whatever. - You know the type. - Oh yeah. - I was like, I probably been the type before too, but. - Yeah, I was that guy for a long time. I tried to be. - Did you? (laughing) - You know what I'm just like, nah. (laughing) Okay, simple question. Are expectations just too fucking high? Are they unrealistic? Are they, where are we at with that? Because I think, you know, for men, it's like, you know, they're watching porn and they're seeing, you know, they think that's a relationship. A lot of men do. For women, you know, the six foot five blue rise finance guy. Are expectations just completely out of whack right now? - Well, we also just think too. Like when you have an expectation, you also need to fucking communicate that, right? Like you have to let, like if I expect my partner to call me, I'm gonna tell him that I expect to, hey, I wouldn't need to call me every single night, right? Whatever, I don't know. So I think that's also the thing is we have these high expectations and then these high expectations are in an adult body and then the nervous system and the brain are in the baby brain. So I might have high expectations, but then I'm on a date with Mark and all of a sudden I go back to being a six year old who's talking to dad and I can't ask for that. I can't ask for a need. No, no, I don't want to be too much. Okay, so you have these high expectations, but nobody can meet them because you don't have to express yourself about them or the pendulum swings were so rigid, we're so like, if you don't do this at this time, the number one thing I hear, the number one fucking thing I hear every day is just one text. It just takes 10 seconds and it's like, no, it's not. That's your expectation. Did you articulate to this person? Is that a non-negotiable? Nah, I didn't think good morning was gonna be something that was gonna make or break your fucking life and that's not how you're getting to know this person. What does it mean though? Those expectations are usually unmet needs because if I expect that Mark's gonna text me, sorry, Mark, you and I are dating in this scenario and it's okay, it would be a be cute. And so, sorry. Thank you. If Mark and I didn't. Single again. Oh god. If we could find our podcast though, this would be amazing. I didn't even mean it. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm not really looking to settle down in 80th, I'm soon. Oh god, you really are those guys. You know, we can go have hang out and have fun. We know what. We couldn't like totally down to like pick it. Just go with the flower, right? Yeah. Like, I don't even fuck a remember the point I was trying to make. (laughter) Yes, if I expect expectations, if I expect you to text me every day, that's because I've unmet needs. And if I'm not expressing that versus non-negotiables, hey, I don't deal with inconsistency. I need reciprocity. I need fucking baseline of respect. I need these aspects. Those you cannot do without religion, politics, whatever. Everybody has their free. That's I think the difference. to understand our non-negotiables or what are we not willing to settle for versus our expectations? Because you're like, "Yeah, satisfy your own needs." Yeah. I think one of the challenges for a lot of people is they're afraid to communicate the expectations because they understand that that's going to filter a lot of people out and they don't want to feel rejected. You know, it's like if you tell a guy, "Hey, I kind of feel like I want more communication from you. I'd love it if you texted me every day." And then he just says, "All right, peace." You know, that feels really bad. And so I think people avoid that for that reason. And then I think the other reason is just it's people don't communicate expectations effectively. They'll say they communicated their expectations, but then it's like a very blame like, "Well, you should do this because this is what I need. And if you want to be with me, you need to text me and do these things." And like, that feels shitty as the other person. There's a very important skill of communicating your expectations in a way that's not judgmental, not blaming, retaining responsibility for them. Just, "Hey, letting you know, this is important to me, and I'd really love it if you did this, and just leave the ball in their court and not have this fucking drama explosion over it." What I hear a lot is self-abandonment. I don't know if I say something because Mark and I are dating. If I say something to Mark and he walks away and leaves, "Oh, well, then I'm rejected." And you're like, "Wait a minute. Being rejected by definition is being ridiculed or judged for who you are." Okay, well, that's a need. Let me ask you, quite not you, the hyper proverbial you. Let me ask you a question. When was the last time you expressed your need as a kid that you remember feeling like this? "Oh, well, when I would ask my debt, there it is." So you're scared, you're self-abandoning because if I take ownership and say, "No, no, no, no, no, like I can't ask that." And it's like, "Well, where did I learn that from?" Who taught me that my needs are too much? Okay, that was messaging I learned early on. And so that's what I mean by like we have these adult expectations in a child's brain and not to anyone. It's just really that going back into the amygdala and being like, "I'm scared I don't want to say anything. So I'll just self-abandon and I'll do everything to be the cool girl because the cool girl is going to get him to like me." And it's like, nah, because it's one-dimensional. That's why the nice guy, nobody likes the nice guy. That's your personality. I like, I find it so goddamn hot. Is that a boundary? Tell me, no. I want you to stand when my partner said, "No, I'm not going to text you." I was like, "Oh, okay." Because it's like-- Talk dirty to me. Because it shows where I'm like, "You care about your mental health and your well-being and you have no, you're not scared to lose me." And that is really fucking hot when it's like, "Oh, so you do want me in your life. You don't need me in your life." Boundaries don't keep people out. They protect what's in. If I said a boundary with you, Mark, that's because I'd want to keep you in my life, not because I want you gone. That's kind of what we're saying. I'd much rather you articulate and get fucking rejected for that. And really great, I'm not wasting my sleep on an emotionally unavailable salmon when there's a bunch of other fish I could go try to catch. I like salmon. Do you? I'm not a salmon kind of girl. Even though I'm wearing salmon. You're quite salmon today. Yeah, in my dating book models, there's a whole chapter on rejection and a lot of guys have told me over the years that it's one of the most powerful things for them when they read it. And it's basically reframing rejection as it's not about you, it's actually kind of the world's way of sorting the right people in and out of your life. And so if you tell a woman what you want and what you expect and she disappears, she's actually doing you a favor. She's preventing multiple months of an unhappy relationship. And when you start seeing it that way, then I don't know. It took a while for me, but when I started seeing it that way, it was like, oh, this is actually a good thing. Like the more I express myself and the more women just who aren't interested, turn it down, the better my life ends up. Rejections, redirection. It really is. I couldn't agree more. How many times, even thinking of my career, how many times I've got, I said no to someone, said no to me on something. And then when you see it, you're like, thank God that didn't happen. That was awful. I don't know. I'd be part of this because it really is. If we can empower ourselves, I'm like, hey, I use to tell my mom, I'm like, no, no, no, here's my thing. Either get the fuck in or get out. Don't block the door because I will happily open it for you and get you out. If I know, like we talked, we bring a full circle to it. You said earlier, people don't know what they want. And so if I know what I need in a relationship and hear, you know, I ask people all the time, like, what do you want in a relationship? And they'll just go like, I want someone to do stuff with. Okay, what stuff is that? You know, like go out. Okay, go out where? Is this mean you're going to go out with friends or just alone? Okay, do they have their own friend group? I don't know, I didn't think about that. It's like, well, that's the type. What kind of life do you want to live? I knew with my partner. I want someone that cooks. I need someone that helps me with access service. And so when he our third date, when he was like, hey, I made you lunch because I know you don't eat, you better believe I was like, oh, my God, because I was so clear on what I knew I needed and wanted that I could see it. And I was like, there he is. As opposed to flandering. And I mean, like, I want the spark. And it's like, no, the spark is just your flanges trying to get away. It's blood rushing to your extremities so you could run. And so, but like, if you feel like you did with the spark with a homeless person on the street in LA, you'd be right, right? Yeah. So I think that's really like the meat and potatoes of it is like, fucking learn yourself, understand yourself, know what you want to need. And then you can actually show up as that. And you're not scared of losing people for it. For sure. Well said. Take up space. Yeah, love it. Sabrina, working people find you, you got the podcast, you're on social media, working people find you. Yeah, we're going to have a mark on the Sabrina Zohar show. Yeah. Make sure you catch that one. Oh, I can't wait. Yeah, you're going to I have who we're going to get all the mail feedback on that. I can't wait. And yeah, SabrinaZohar.com or the Sabrina Zohar show or Sabrina. So we can find cool, awesome. Thank you so much for coming. This is so much fun. Thanks for having me, guys. The subtle art of knocking the fuck podcast is produced by Drew Bernie. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening. And we will see you next week.