How To Create A Workplace Environment That Gen Z’s Will Love

[MUSIC PLAYING] Everyone's talking about AI, us included. But few know where to start. The AI transformation explorer helps you find real opportunities and move from we should to we shipped. Try it out for free with the people managing people community. [MUSIC PLAYING] Retention of Gen Z talent has become a major issue for employers. Recent surveys have revealed that Gen Z is more likely than other generations in the workforce to save their work as frustrating and overwhelming. And 55% of them say they plan to look for a new job in the next 12 months. Of course, these are generalizations. But the statistics tell a story of a group of people unfulfilled and wanting more. But why is it this generation feels this way more than others? And what are they and employers need to do differently to create a better working experience? Welcome to the People Managing People Podcast. We're on a mission to build a better world of work and to help you create happy, healthy, and productive work places. I'm your host, David Rice. My guest today is May Ping Lim. She is a creator of the corporate survivor, career coaching, and mentoring. We're going to be chatting about her framework for career development, the challenges young people are facing in the workplace, and what leaders can do to create memorable workplace experiences for them. May Ping, welcome. Hi. Thanks for inviting me, David, looking forward to share more about how we can work happier in our careers. Yeah. So first, I want to talk about the corporate survivor, though. Like, what inspired you to start this career coaching business like YouTube channel newsletter podcast? Do you have a whole content suite on offer? Yeah. In fact, I'd say that I'm an accidental career coach, which is surprising to a lot of people because my background actually is in the corporate world. So I graduated in 2008, 2009, doing the financial crisis. And I spent more than 10 years in the corporate world that I've done accounting, consulting, you know, FinTech, banking, and so forth. So more than 10 years, you know, really learning the work skills and climbing the career ladder and really doing what it takes to really learn how to survive and thrive in the corporate world. Then in 2019, my mom was ill actually she was terminally ill. So I decided that I wanted to take a career break. And that was kind of like the end of the corporate world juncture of after a decade. So in 2019, when I was at home, sort of like, you know, being a caregiver and everything, people started reaching out to me on LinkedIn. So I started getting messages like, hey, May Ping, you're like not working right now. So what are you doing? And can you give me some advice on like all these work plays and career problems that I've been facing? So I think it's kind of like accidental in a way. So as I read like more of those requests came in, I decided that, hey, you know, let's just do some career coaching, career consultation, and I'll see how I can help. And it kind of like transition into one-on-one sessions and stuff like that over the years. And I think after two years of like just doing like one-on-one consultations, I realized that hey, everybody seems to have very similar problems. It's either problems with people at work or the high workload or just like, you know, low salary and feeling like they're laws and like, no opportunities. And it started reaching a point where I felt that, dramatically, I'm kind of having similar conversations with different people. And that was really when the idea of like creating like a more full-fletched program. So I call it the corporate survivor. It is basically a corporate world career growth training mentoring and coaching program, kind of giving you the holistic framework and understanding of what it actually takes to have a better career and to really redefine like what career growth means to you. So career clarity, confidence, confidence and opportunities, kind of like everything that you need to know in the corporate world, sort of like bundle it up into a program that, you know, would work for as long as like you're in a nine to five job then definitely is designed to work for you. So that's really the inspiration around creating it. I wouldn't say that it on purpose per se, but I think that throughout like many of the conversations and like kind of seeing the similar challenges and also reflected on my own career journey as well and things that I wish that someone would have told me at the start of my career, kind of like inspired the program that I have right now. - I'm curious since you started doing this, what are some things that you've kind of learned or seen that have surprised you? - I think believing in possibilities, because when I was working and I think with many of us as well, right, we are kind of fixated on our own career. In the most instances, we kind of like think about our day today work and everything, but I think creating the program and also spending time, the lessons and like teaching, coaching, mentoring and everything, I've really seen clients who started outfilling hopeless, frustrated and I feel miserable about my life and I don't know what to do to really seeing them from like poor performers being put on PIP, helpless to really becoming a high performers in their role. And I've actually seen that transition and it's not an overnight thing, but you could really see that they're my set shifted, the skills that they're and really becoming more confident as well. So I've seen so many of these instances that really gave me the feeling of like hope and possibilities. And sometimes I think when we think about our own careers, like we don't really see that, especially when we are still on the journey, I'm of getting there, but I think having done career coaching for a long time and even my course, the corporate survivor, it has been, but almost two years already and then plus decade long in the corporate role, I think I've seen so many instances that it's actually possible to overturn whatever situation that you're in right now. But I think sometimes it's like having that initial spark of like clarity that kind of gives you that new perspective and inside of that, oh, I can't do it this way. Maybe there's just something I was missing and now that I've figured it out and it clicks and I'm good to go. I think to me, those are like the inspiring stories that really encourage me to continue on. - So let's talk about this three step framework that you developed a little bit 'cause take me through that a little because I'm curious, what are the issues that you saw that led you to put that together and then how has it all come together? - So one of the things that as I started talking to many more like nine or five professionals, one of the questions that they asked me is, hey, anything, you know, you seem really young to be senior director, you know, head of governance and controlist at a charter back, which was really my latest role before I transitioned into a career coach. So they said that, hey, you seem really young to host such a fairly senior position. So what did you do that? I think I need to learn how to do as well. Like, you know, what are some of the skills or like knowledge that you have that like I need to learn also. So that got me reflecting and gradually I kind of like explain it in this three step framework and now this we call it the corporate survivors three step framework. So I think there are basically three core components. So step one is get clear on the corporate world. Step two, get confident with corporate skills and step three, get visible with personal branding. Now, I think the triangle really works well together because the common challenges that I hear and things that I've also personally faced in my career is really starting a new role, feeling lost. And I've always said that you know the day that you sign the job offer is the happiest day. Then it turns into a mix of anxiety and excitement. And I think one of the biggest challenges is really like starting a role and feeling lost and feeling unsure and also doubting your decision on whether hey, should I have accepted this role or not? And if that you know is left unaddressed then it can kind of like quickly turn into a downward spiral. So really no step one around, you know, getting clear is really all about understanding the new companies corporate culture and structure and basically where you fit in is like, hey, I'm hired and this is how I can contribute and really focusing on managing expectations at the beginning identify and managing expectations. And the other element around that is learning also to adapt to the people, personality and culture at the new place. So I think the clarity portion is really around expectations and people. So once you have that, you know, at least you are clear on like, okay, this is kind of like how I'm contributing. This is how I can fit into the new company and then you kind of have that sense of hope and possibilities of like, hey, I can do this. Then after that, no, once you have clarity then we can move into step two and that's get confident with corporate skills. Now the reality is that no matter how much daily motivation that you can give yourself, any of the, you need to have skills, right skills expertise, that's kind of like the core foundation. So step two really focuses on four key skills groups. So that's communication, relationship building, critical thinking and productivity. Now the logic is this, right? We are working with people. So and that's why I really love like the people managing people podcasts because I think it's like the heart of the issue itself because no matter where you're working, we need to be able to work with people. So communication is that skill that you must have. So learning how to express yourself, learning how to actively listen and applying EQ, communication is really like that first group to upskill. Then once you are a good communicator, then we can focus on the next skills group which is relationship building because you can't work on your own, I mean, you can, but you can't get far. So once you have worked on your communication skills, we can then focus on building your network, right? Relationship building, you learn how to talk to your peers, talk to your boss, talk to stakeholders, talk to clients, and that's always really, really valuable. Now after you have communication and relationships, then the next thing is critical thinking because nobody wants to talk to a person who is very friendly, but they can't really add value in terms of like helping each other from a work perspective. So I think that's where critical thinking comes in because if you are very good at you do. You must be able to explain it in a very logical perspective, right, to really get support from other people as well. So the critical thinking is really the art of actually mastering the job that you're hired to do and where you can contribute and how you cannot also communicate that contribution, right, to the people around you. So I say that the foundation definitely is, as we said, communication relationship with the critical thinking, but all these three groups, you won't be able to maximize it if you don't have productivity. Because even if you have, you can do everything, but nobody wants to work with someone who cannot complete their work on time. So that's kind of like the logic and that productivity kind of like maps up everything else. It kind of like wraps it out nicely to be able to complete work on time. Making sure that you're not such a perfectionist that your time lives get delayed and making sure that all the communications are done. So I think the false skills group is really something that if you want to move to the next stage of getting visible to get recognized, then we also want to make sure that we have a very solid foundation that you know, you can go to your boss or your superior and say, hey, you know, I'm contributing. I know what I'm doing. And now let's talk about visibility. Let's talk about recognition. So having clarity, confidence and confidence, then we can move into step three and that gets visible with personal branding. So I say personal branding as like two parts, right? There's the networking on the job, like getting recognized and visible at work, but also not to put all your X in one basket and also making sure that you have a LinkedIn profile where you can attract new opportunities as they come by. So the visibility strategy is really making sure that you are good at what you do, but your boss needs to also be aware that you are good at what you do. Your network at your workplace should also be aware that you're very good at what you do. So that's where you know, networking comes in really making sure that you're preparing for monthly catchups, performance reviews. And we can definitely talk about those a little bit more as well. Then the external part, which I think I'm LinkedIn is definitely a very critical platform to make sure that you can be found with any new opportunities that you can grow your career as well. So I think the three-set framework get clear, get confident, get visible is something that you can use throughout your career, whether you're starting a new job or even if you feel that you're struggling at your job, it's kind of one of those frameworks that you can kind of go back at pin points, hey, am I missing something in terms of the company culture and that is that any specific issues as to why I can't communicate with this particular stakeholder? I think it's kind of a framework that allows you to also pin point and assess which part you're missing and then tackle it, which kind of allows you to go on a circular basis to use and for you to improve your career as you go along as well. That second step is a big one because we always think of skills, we always think of my actual work skills, but the people skills that are really going to, and they help the other two areas, right? Like if you have those the ability to communicate the ability to relationship build, you will find more clarity, you will be able to build a personal brand much easier and communicate what you're doing. I really like this framework. So I'm curious, you know, like with young people in the workplace, it's an interesting time to come into the workforce, right? You know, it feels like their expectations for what work should be aren't necessarily being met and it's at a time when there's all this automation talk and it feels like kind of a crazy environment to be in. I wondered how in tune, like their expectations for the reality of work can actually be. I'm not just saying this like an old man, you know, yelling at the kids to get off his lawn. But you see like threads on social media with people complaining about their players and using words like toxic. And recently I did a show with a apprenticeship expert and I've been reading his book about the college disconnect, so to speak. And I just see this stuff and I think, you know, they're coming out of school, they're not ready. And then they essentially go through this period that probably feels a little bit like a easing period. I guess this is what you would call it like, you know, they struggle to cope with the reality of work. So I'm curious, like what do you think? Because I don't think it's necessarily true that all these employers are toxic. I just think maybe they're not prepared for what young people are coming into the workplace with maybe their experience feels toxic so they're labeling it that. But employees are doing what they've always done. And what they need to do to push the business forward. I guess I'm just curious how do you see all of that? Like what that experience is like for particularly younger workers as they enter the workplace right now? Yeah, definitely. I think those errors are fairly interrelated as well. I mean, let's talk about the college part. I think the most exciting time, right, is being a fresh graduate and finally completing, you know, all your papers and kind of like getting a scroll. And there was so much that was promised, right? So the thing also is that, you know, where you're a fresh graduate and I think David, if we could both think back at the time that we were fresh graduates, I think we were really starry eyed and very excited. Really want to get going. And the thing is that that sort of like excitement mindset. And I guess the only mindset that young people have like as fresh graduates is how they have always behaved in college and university. I think that's the only thing that they know and you know, reasonably so. So when they start their first jobs and they go in high excitement, but also expecting that just working hard is everything is going to be okay. And that's what they have always done in your university and college, right? You know, as long as I'm excited, right? I work hard. I focus on my papers. Everything will be okay. But quickly, they notice that, hey, this doesn't really work in the working world. You know, I can't just sit alone and expect to work hard and people will come and guide me. That could be, I say that an expectation gap like the transition from university to the working world. I think that's really the first part. This can be easily tackled. Like, as I said, you know, in the three-step framework, I shared a list really getting to your decouple role. Like knowing how you fit in and you know, identify expectations that have an upfront conversation around, hey, you know, I'm very excited to get started. These are the three things that I understand that I had to contribute and maybe can we have a discussion or can I get some guidance as to how I can get started? So I think this one, you know, just a bit of a communication probably, you know, will be able to sort of reset expectations in a way and also to seek guidance at the start. But I do think that, you know, with the rights of social media also is that I try to think from a fresh graduate's perspective. And I hear many of these stories from my clients as well. So when you're feeling lost, you know, you're a young person, you're feeling lost, you're overwhelmed. What's the first thing that you do? You talk to your friends and family. And your friends and family tell you, oh, this is a bad job. Just quit, right? Or you go to social media and you start looking at motivational content and all these content are really talking around and you talk about, you know what? Just go, just go, right? If it's not suitable, just leave. So I think that, you know, being in those sort of environment, it kind of is like a one-way street. If you don't like it, just quit, right? And we don't have to think about the future. We don't have to think about, hey, maybe are we missing some skills? Are we missing some clarity? Or what could we do to figure out, you know, and to real life expectations? I feel that those conversations, we don't see a lot on social media. And when we're friends and family, I can totally understand. If you go to your friends and family, they want to be a listening ear. They want to take care of you. And I think that's really the role of friends and family. And when you go on social media, as I said, right, there's just kind of like one narrative in a way. So I think it does limit the opportunity to self-reflect, to develop ourselves and to really think about, hey, you know, how can I improve? And what else can I improve if I want to have a longer career? Because I think all these steps, you know, we can quit for sure. But if we are quitting every three to six months, and then I guess what is the future? Is this future scary? If we were to take such actions, I mean, it's not scary to me. And sometimes the regret does set in as well. So I do have clients after a couple of years in the workforce. And really, you know, being a job hopper and like quitting every few months and blaming to everything else. And after two, three years and they come to me and we have a very frank conversation about the future, about what's next. And it can be very scary. But I think that there is definitely a chance to reset. So I want to talk right quickly around the definition of toxic. So I think we are hearing a lot of the toxic world places in toxic jobs, toxic bosses. And these conversations happen a lot amongst the younger professionals as well. Now, I think my definition of toxic is that I like to look at things like fairly objectively. And I think that the reality is that if you are in the working world, you are dealing with people. And the reality is that, you know, the not everybody is like us, not everybody have the exact same personality like us. And different departments and different companies or different stakeholders, they have the different priorities as well. So I guess if I could like redefine or maybe give you a quick framework to define whether it's something is toxic or not, maybe we can use the 3P method, the people, personality and priorities. Who exactly are you dealing with? Is there a personality clash to begin with just because like we are who we are? And is there a party difference as well? Right. So that all of it, right, could be addressed with communication, it could be addressed with conversations around alignment and making sure they say, hey, how can I help you? How can we work together instead of destroying in the towel and quitting? So I'm not saying that, you know, there are like no toxic instances. But I'd have seen many. And I think that, you know, if you were to take a step back and really reassess and say, hey, is this a people problem? Is this a personality clash or is this a party difference? I think it kind of gives better perspective as to, hey, maybe that's an opportunity to work together instead of, you know, labeling everything as toxic. Because I think when it reaches a certain point of if every single person around you is toxic, then what is going on? Maybe some new perspectives might help, maybe a different perspective, maybe talking to someone who's not your friends or family, might give you a bit of perspective as well. So it's not the popular answer, but I guess that's kind of how I see it. - You know, it's interesting. I saw a stat that said something like almost half of recent college grads who entered the workforce said they were emotionally ready for work. And I wasn't sure how to understand that sentiment at first. What do you feel they mean by emotionally ready? 'Cause I'm not sure when any of us first start out that we're necessarily emotionally ready for what the reality of work is. I can remember being, you know, me coming out as a young journalist in the first time I had like a really harsh editor, you know? Like, well, I don't know if I was really ready for that. But no matter how what my teachers had done before that, it wasn't quite like that. So I kind of understand, but I'm wondering, is there something that we can do differently to help prepare them or to welcome them in and help them emotionally sort of acclimate to the workplace? - I guess there are two areas to it. I think from an employer's standpoint, for sure, it's really understanding that the younger generation probably want and need more guidance on what's gonna happen next. 'Cause I think in that digital era, the beauty is that we have access to information and we can have whatever information that we want, pretty much at our fingertips. And I think that this is what Gen Z has grown up with, right? In what I wanna know something, I'm curious about something, I can just Google it, I can go online and get the answers. But when it comes to the working world, when it comes to their first job, it's kind of different. So in a way, they're kind of like taking that leap of faith and having not much of an idea of what to expect. So the only thing that they know is to go in with the mindset that they had in college or university. And as we discussed earlier, it's quite different. So I think from an employee's standpoint, I think on boarding of fresh graduates gonna be really, really critical, really understanding of that, hey, this is what you can expect in your first 90 days. And here's a buddy, here's a mentor, or here's your boss that you can ask questions and we are here to support you and so forth. I think having that initial validation kind of gives the younger professionals a better idea of that, okay, it's not that if I face a roadblock, I'm gonna quit. It's like if I face a roadblock, this is kind of in the 90 day plan. And there's a buddy, there's a mentor, there's a manager I can always speak to. I think that kind of gives them more clarity and confidence of like knowing that there's somewhere that they can go to get help. However, I think for the cases of like younger professionals themselves, I think it's also that mindset shift of, I'm no longer in college or university, I'm kind of in the working world and I need to be open to learning new things. I think one challenge I have also seen, I've also heard a lot of it is more often going into a new job, wanting to add value immediately. So I hear these things on, hey, maybe I'm studying my new job, I only impress. So what I usually tell them is more like, hey, if you think about my three step framework, get visible is step three. So the first thing we need to figure out is, hey, what exactly is my job? That's step one, getting clarity, right? What exactly is my job, right? What is the expectation? And then this is my first job. What are some of the skills that I need to work on? Like, you know, communication, critical thinking, relationship building, all the things that we talked about, right? Where am I in terms of that skill set? If I could read myself from one to 10, right? What are the skills that do I need to succeed in this job? And what are some of the skills that would be good to hone as I continue on my career journey? So I think that step one step to right, clarity, confidence and confidence needs to come first before going into impress. Because I need the danger of going into impress. And I think this could be a social media thing as well. If you wanted, you have it, right? Instagram gratification is going in immediately wanting to impress. Actually, that will put you in a situation of saying yes to everything over promising and maybe having a bit of an incorrect expectation as well. Or maybe too high of an expectation that any workplace will not be able to fulfill. I think any company will not be able to give you that imaginary, that perfect workplace in your mind. So I think if we could tie it back to the trees that framework, I think that if you're going into impress, you're going into succeed immediately, you're going in for a promotion, everything like three months, and to go for the Rarara, that I think we are already on step three. But what we haven't gone through is really step one, clarity, step two, confidence, confidence, all those have not. I think that those are like the foundation. They really need to address first and yeah, then when you're ready, I think opportunities will come right. It's actually very easy to gain visibility, but the foundation is really the difficult part to build. Like as you said, David, the resilience, the grid, the idea of like, hey, I can figure it out. I need to know what's wrong. And I'm going to try and see how it goes. I think that kind of attitude is something that we need to encourage. Absolutely. And I've been with my fair share of employers. I can tell you none of them are perfect. Now, it's just the nature of when you get a large group of people together, there's going to be imperfection and things that are harder than they should be. And it's just the nature of work. It's part of working with human beings. I mean, you get used to it. And even the places when you look back on it, you know, like as you get older, you're like, even the places where I was happy had its fair share of issues. It's just that I was enjoying what I was doing and I was getting recognized. And that recognition piece does play a big part in employee satisfaction. And you know, we've talked about the framework, obviously. But I'm curious, what advice do you have for people about getting recognized at work specifically? Because this goes for people with young and all. Like because the truth is recognition and how you get it has changed a lot over the years. Like it used to feel like if you work hard, you know, pay off, someone will notice, but that's not necessarily true anymore. You kind of have to, like when you talk about personal brand, you really do have to gas yourself up a little bit and put yourself out there and say like, I did this. You know, this has been the effect and have ways to measure it in order to get that recognition. I guess I'm at, you know, what advice do you have around sort of how you go about doing that? Yeah, I agree. I think the traditional workplace is more like, hey, let's just wait till the year end. And during my year and performance review, that's when I'll take out all the, you know, the note pads and like, these are all the things that I've done. And I think definitely that has moved away. So right now, the best way actually is to think about your full working year and the really reverse engineer. I think that's the approach that I teach to my students. And I think this is a secure word really well for me. So I like to look at the working year in the 12 month calendar. So in the 12 month calendar, the key milestones are going to be the mid year and year end. Right? These are like the big sort of like goal posts to really track and, you know, to convey to your managers or your boss and say, hey, you know, this is kind of like, what I'm looking for for career growth. But I think the path of getting there and also reset things going to be important. So always start your year, resetting expectations, right? This is these are what I've done last year. And this year, these are going to be my key goals. I'll be aligned on that. Does this work for, you know, what you're expecting of me? And these are maybe some of the opportunities that I'm looking for to get involved in, right? So whether it's new projects or new things, maybe expansion of school, I think really conveying to your bosses that, you know, I want to try out these things. And these are the areas that I think I can contribute further this year. I think kind of set expectations at the beginning of, hey, you know, I'm ready. I want to do it, right? And let's track up my progress together. Then after that, I think progress updates are really important as well. I think when people think about personal branding, they think about making big presentations, going to toast masters and say, hey, I know I could do all these things and volunteering for events and all those things. I personally don't see that way. I think that the best way to add value is to do your job really, really well and to add value based on the scope that you already have. Either you can come up with new ideas, maybe better ways of doing things or you could even volunteer to help out with your managers, other parties as well. So overall, you're contributing to the team's goals and the department's goals. I think that's really like the best way of adding value and getting visible. So in terms of like your own performance at the beginning, setting expectations, I think at the beginning of the year is something that everybody should do. Whatever performance rating and feedback, you got last year, it doesn't matter. Roll over and beginning in the month of January is like, hey, this is kind of like what I want to do. And this year, I'm looking for promotion, I'm looking for salary increment, like what can I do? Aside, resetting the expectations and on the monthly basis, making sure that you are having one-on-one conversations with your manager, with your boss, and going through your progress update, going through how you're tracking towards the goal. Then we bring us to meet year and then bring us to the year-end. So I think having that consistent catch-up session, consistently also reminds your boss that you're doing a great job. Here are all those things that I've done in the past month that you may or may not be aware of, but I would like to share them with you. I would like to also get some feedback from you as to these are the things that I've done. Do you have any feedback on how I can do better? These are some of the ideas that I have. Do you want me to explore more of these? What would you want more or less? So I think having that check in, and checking in towards the goals that we have collectively agreed together, I think gives you that confidence that, yeah, I am progressing to achieve whatever that we have collectively set up to. And I think it gives you more confidence also to ask during your mid-year or year-end performance review, say, hey, boss, as we agreed at the year-end, these are some of the goals that we achieve. And I saw mid-year and year-end, I've got to go. exceeded expectations, right? After not only this, but after all done, ABCDE, all the extra stuff, right? Then now we can have a conversation. And I think more importantly, you feel like you deserve it. You deserve to ask because you're very contributed. And I think it kind of gives you better clarity on what career growth means to you, whether it's this company or maybe it's another company, maybe you've grown the current role already. So I think having that framework reduces the ad hoc manner of like, hey, when should I tell my boss, like, when is the best time to shout from the rooftop, say, hey, I'm very great job. Can I get the salary? And I think that's usually the point of confusion. Because one of the questions I can do get from my clients is when do you think it's the best time to tell my boss that I'm doing a great job? I'm like, you should be telling your boss every single month through the progress update. And your boss should consistently be knowing that you are contributing. Because I think perception is something that is ongoing, right? I mean, in the workplace, it's not that, you know, you prepare for that one big conversation at the year end, then all the expectations and the perception is going to change. I think it's a very graduating. And I've also been in positions of department head and team leader. I've been in those roles and how I assess my staff is not from that one conversation at the year end. It's the day to day. It's the week to week. It's the month to month. Say, hey, how are you doing? Right? How are you adding value? You know, what are the things that you need to work on? And we work on it together. And I think like kind of looking at it in the 12 month calendar and like putting in your goal posts and putting in your mouth. So I think that gives you a more structured way of thinking about your visibility strategy. So you can kind of focus on what needs to be done every week, every month, every year and you know, adjust your conversations accordingly. So before we go, there's just two things we need to do. First, I want to give you an opportunity to tell folks where they can find you and learn more about what you're doing. Great. So if you are working in a corporate world, in an organization, MNCs, SME, startup, NGO, then I think you'll find a lot of value in the career programs and the free guys that I have. So you can find me on LinkedIn and Instagram, just search for MAPING Lim, or you can go to my website at www.maping.com. So I do have a five day career growth guide. They will actually walk through the career clarity, confidence, confidence, value positioning, and online branding that we talked about quite a bit in this podcast. So you can just go to www.maping.com to download it. So I hope that you feel more confident in surviving and thriving in the corporate world and also to be able to grow your career with clarity and confidence. I think that is the goal. The last part is a new tradition that we started on the podcast. I've been trying to start. We're going to flip the dynamic a little bit and give you a chance to ask me a question. So what would you like to ask? Yeah, since we're talking about the corporate world and like being a young professional, and I guess the question I have for you is that if you could restart your career, as a fresh graduate, right, in the corporate world, what is like the one big thing that you wish you would have done differently? So well, when I graduated, I graduated in 2008, the economy collapsed like right afterwards, and my field of choice essentially was just doing mass layoffs. And so I think if I could go back, what I would do differently is not, I was very idealistic in the beginning. And I had these aspirations of being a journalist in a certain sort of setting. The content marketing wasn't what it was when I eventually entered it seven years later. But I was also very closed off to what the possibilities for me could be because I had this vision that I wanted to make come true. And I think that held me back for the first several years. It was being overly idealistic about what I could do. There was actually a lot of other options for me. I could have written advertising and I could have done all kinds of different types of work that my training prepared me for. But I wasn't willing to see it and let it in because I felt like I was chasing this dream essentially. If I could go back, I would talk to younger me and say, like, remember, A, you're starting out so you cannot make demands. You know, like you got to kind of just get work and start getting paid and not be so idealistic. I would shift things for me personally. And I don't know if that naive of a day is very common. I love that because I think it ties into what we spoke about today around like transferable skills, right? And that's why we talked about live four key groups because I think if I listen to what you're saying and it sounds like you have to have a lot of skills already. But it's just that, you know, like having that one track mind to that one specific career is the part that told me, I guess in today's world, career options are abundant. And I think that the good people will always have great opportunities. So, you know, if you ask me, you know, what are the things that you need to focus on, I think, yeah, the three step framework for sure, yeah, clearly a confident gap visible. And I think once you have mastered every single component, then you'll find that there are more career options that will open up because you know that you can do it. - Yeah, absolutely. See, young me just near the three step framework. And that's all it is. All right, well, May Pink, it's been lovely chatting with you today and having you on the show. Thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. All right, listen, as if you want to keep up on all things HR leadership head on over to peoplemanagingpeople.com/subscribe and sign up for our newsletter. Until next time, do some breath work. Find time to enjoy a nice nap.