How to create a $200K recruitment side hustle (while fully employed)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit where me and my twin brother interview Top Billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Jeffrey Zebron. Jeff Story is pretty insane. He built his recruitment business while working a full-time Sass Sales job while also managing to hit President's Club. He hit 100K in his first year, 200K in his second year, 250 in his third year, and nearly 600K in his fourth year. In today's episode, Jeff is going to be breaking down his exact NPC strategy and how he used it to win countless clients. He's going to be explaining the exact platform to seize the most success, how to structure a really good NPC message. He's also going to be explaining his exact messaging follow-up process and why he wins most of his business at that stage. Jeff is also going to be explaining the one mindset ship that completely transformed his energy in sales. Finally, we're just going to be speaking about Jeff's journey and how the hell he managed to run a business while working a full-time role. Guys, this is going to be a great episode. We hope you enjoy it as much as Ben and I did, as usual grab a cup or a glass of wine and let's get into a shall we? Wait a second guys, quick question for you. If you could land a new client on LinkedIn in the next couple of weeks, how much would that be worth to you? 20, 30, maybe 40K? Well, we have a pretty crazy offer on right now. If you are a recruitment business owner, then we will work with you for free and write you two posts at absolutely no cost. And here's the cool part, other recruiters that have come through this free trial have managed to win new clients. They've racked up hundreds of thousands of impressions and started conversations with top tier candidates. It's completely risk-free, so you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you're interested, the links in the description below. If not, no worries. We hope you enjoy the podcast. See you later. Jeff, thank you for joining us today, my friend. You literally just told us off camera, this is going to be your first podcast. So I am absolutely honored that you chose Top Bill as toolkit. How you doing, my friend? Yeah, I'm doing great. How are you guys doing? Thanks for having me. Yeah, really good man, really good, really busy, just like crazy busy at the moment. You know what I'm hearing from recruiters as well a lot? Because I'm getting on quite a lot of sales calls and a lot of recruiters are just saying, this is a good market right now, like they're super busy. So I feel like something's turning. I don't know what it is, but more people are just like in a good state, which is awesome. Sorry, completely random. Jeff, let's start off with the first question if you don't mind my friend. What's the number one tool in your toolkit where there'll be a mindset strategy or software? Yeah, I love this question. I listen to your podcast all the time. So try to make it a little bit different, but I think that for me, the number one tool in my toolkit would be a sales skill set and a sales mindset. I think that when people think about recruiting, the obvious skill set would be to be a good recruiter, which is totally true. But I think that in recruiting, recruiting is sales. To actually make money, to get clients, to find people, that's how you build a recruiting business and those all require sales skills. I know we had some questions later on around sales, but I felt like because that's your first one, Jeff, that I wasn't expecting. But I'll ask you another question around it now. But that's absolutely. So what if there was some key things? Because it definitely resonates that recruitment is very sales-led. And if you're a good salesperson, then I think you're going to be a more successful recruiter generally speaking. But what are the key principles? What are some really key things within that sales realm that you've learned that we can give to other recruiters? Do you think? Yeah, I think for me, it was really having and defining your sales skill set. Anything that you could do to make yourself better in sales. I mentioned earlier about how I think recruiting is sales. You reach out to people, at least in my opinion, almost in the same way that you would reach out to a candidate as a client. You're trying to get them to have an interest top of the funnel and an opportunity. So when you're asking about sales or sales skills, I think really training yourself or using resources, books, podcasts, anything like that or training classes to make sure that you can refine your skills as much as possible. And I think that comes down to really two things in my opinion in recruiting. Number one is copywriting and how you write. That's a lot of times in our day and age is how you get those conversations started. It's through how you write and how you copywriting. And number two is how you are on the phone and how you present yourself. I don't know if that one comes before the other. I would say in a lot of, I think in this day and age, maybe writing comes before. Your interpersonal skills or your phone skills or whatnot. But I think being able to make yourself as best as you can be in each of those scenarios on the phone or writing are super important. And I think if you can combine both them together and really hunt both of those skill sets, you can really be a phenomenal recruiter. Love it. Absolutely. Love it. Sam, were you going to say something because your mouth moved? I was going to ask a question, but I don't want to go off course in case we're going down another route. But Robert, I was going to go straight into copywriting unless Ben, you had a question. I can ask a follow-up from that. My brains and copywriting is work because we haven't had very many recruiters that go down the copywriting route, which is interesting. Go ahead. Sorry Ben, you're passing it over to me. Now on that copywriting piece, Jeff, I think we already have a question lined up to that, but I'm just wondering how you learned copywriting. Like when was the first moment you were like copywriting's important? Because I think surprisingly the amount of recruiters that use copywriting every single day in email messages, but don't hone that skill is quite amazing. So I'm curious when you were like, oh, shit, I need to get better at this. And I'm going to go do this to get better, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. And that's a really good question. So at least in recruiting for me, it was a lot of like guess and check. Like does this work, right? Wasn't really necessarily working when I first started. I think it's like anything else you try something. You know, if it works great, continue doing it. And if it doesn't, you know, change up what you're doing. And I think a lot of copywriting is that is kind of sing what works and what doesn't work. And I think like as a recruiter, right? Like you guys know this from LinkedIn and things like that. The better that your copywriting is or the better that you are as a writer, you know, really I feel like attracts people to you, you know, because like here's an example I like to use. And I'm sure you guys get emails all the time just like I do from, you know, people trying to pitch you things. Sometimes the copywriting is so bad that I don't even look at, you know, past like the subject line, right? Or like I don't even look past like the initial like subject line of a LinkedIn message. But sometimes the copywriting and the subject line or the first line is so good that it might even be automated. But like I will respond because it there's a chance that it could be personalized, you know? So for me, it's like copywriting is so important for that top of funnel, just getting the conversation started, whether it's clients or recruiting. Because as much as people say that they want a cold call all day and you know, that's great. If that works for you, that's phenomenal. But again, cold calls take a really like again, everyone's different. But like cold calls can take just the same amount of time. If not more, right? Of like getting people on the phone and calling them and clients and all that where I see my my most efficient, you know, practice or whatnot is in outreach through through writing, whether it's, you know, LinkedIn or emails, cold emails. Love that. So I have a feeling that some of the skills that you learn, well, I don't know, I feel I'm almost certain Jeff that some of the skills that you learn in copywriting sales were in your sales job, your SaaS job. And I feel like we need to get into this because this is super fascinating. That you built a business while working a full-time job in SaaS software sales. And you made president's club two years in a row while building a business on the side in recruitment. Like that's mad. Like I thought when you first told me that I was like, that's insane. Like to be able to get to presence club and perform at that level in software sales, which isn't easy. I know it's not easy. And then to build a recruitment company on the side and hit some decent numbers as well is amazing. Why did you decide to do it in that order? Like why didn't you just, now I'm kind of curious, why didn't you just stay in software sales? You made president's club a couple times. You obviously really good at it. What was that motivation to start building a business on the side? Yeah. You know, just like personally, like I'm very I feel like I'm very entrepreneurial. Like my dad has his own business, my grandpa has their own business, had his own business. So I just feel like there was always something in, you know, in me and I hear this a lot on, you know, your podcast as well. I was like, you get that itch to want to do something on your own. Like selling something for someone else, great experience. You know, I learned so much. I wouldn't trade it for the world, but at the same time, like, man, I'm, you know, grinding and doing all these activities and all that for really to build someone else's business. And so, you know, in my hat, I'm like, man, what can I do to like build my own business? Like I don't really have any skills other than sales. I think at least I'm like, I'm not very talented in anything else. I'm like, you know, what I could, I could probably build a recruiting business. I started my career at, you know, a really large staffing agency, which is it is recruiting. It's a little bit different. Of course, you know, temp staffing compared to permanent, you know, direct hire recruiting. But, you know, in my hat, I was always like, man, that is something I think I could do on my own. So, so yeah, I was in software sales. I, you know, was there for almost eight years, you know, pretty much hit presence club every year. But you asked like, you know, how to do both. I think the big thing, and I, I think this is recruiting in general. But for sure in sales, it's just like efficiency is so important. And I think, you know, being able to find practices or ways to make yourself more efficient without taking shortcuts is probably the most important, one of the most important things, you know, skill sets that you can have in recruiting, like figuring out ways to do things in maybe like 2-4 hours that you usually would take someone six to eight hours, is so important. But there's a fine line with that because you don't wanna do things in two to four hours that is all automated, where people can't, where people don't feel your authenticity. So for me, that was kind of the struggle at first. It's like figuring out how to automate things, but also wanting to make my copy rating look like it's in, act like it actually is coming from myself, like I'm actually doing the research. So efficiency was just really big for me and I figured out my software sales job, how to be efficient, where I can get things done relatively efficiently and still work on my recruiting business after hours and on the weekends and take client calls after hours or recruiting calls on the weekends. So I think when anyone else starts a business, you work your day job and then on the after hours, you try to build your business or whatnot. And eventually I was just like, man, my recruiting business is kind of taking off and started making more money in my recruiting business. And I'm just like, you know, I don't know if I need to do the software sales anymore, but it was definitely, I still feel like it was the leap of faith at the time I was definitely nervous about it, but you know, great decision. You know, I'm very happy that I did it at the time that I did it. Awesome. Were you working like every hour, God sent Jeff, I'm just curious like, 'cause as a business owner, this business consumes all my life, like it's insane. And so I'm just like, how the hell did Jeff build a business and have a full time job? Were you just working like every hour? I'm just curious how you managed your time. Kind of, but like not really, I honestly started during COVID, so everyone was at home, so that was kind of, you know, I was bored. Yeah, I like to like work out, play basketball. Like I like to be very active. And a lot of those things that couldn't really do. So I was like, what can I do to like take up my time, right? And I was like, I've always wanted to build a business. So I started just kind of reaching out to people like, hey, like, and I'm sure you guys remember this, like after COVID, the market was just crazy. Everyone was hiring, right? They couldn't find enough people. And I'm like, if there's ever a time to do this, you know, this would be the time. And then I just started doing research on like, what the hot markets were. So I started just reaching out to people and not, you know, using my sales skillset that I used in software sales. And I was like, hey, can you use some help here? Like, you know, I can have a candidate here as a candidate or I could help define people. So yeah, I wouldn't say that I was like working like crazy. Like I definitely don't work like 12 hour days or you know, whatever 10 hour days. Like I'm very efficient. A lot of days I'll start at like 8 30 and I'll end it like 3, you know, and wow, amazing. Yeah, I definitely don't, you know, I'm not crazy about that. That being said, like I will take calls on weekends if I need to or like 6, 7 30 if someone needs to jump on a collar or whatnot. So, and that is that a normal working day for you, Jeff, like 8 till 3 at the moment. Yeah, I do so. Yeah, that's pretty good. Wow. And just for the audience, just to kind of put that into perspective, I'm just going to quickly tell them the numbers that you share with me, Jeff, that's okay. Yeah. So, in 2021, whilst you're working full time 100K, year 2, 2022, 200K, second year, that's still in your jobs, and that's pretty mad. Yeah. Year 3, 250, first year in your own, and then year 4, 2025, 539K. Yeah, I'm not saying that. Yeah, I just looked at my, I had two invoices out to try to hit 600, but didn't get it. But still, man, that's epic. Really great numbers. Thank you. Yeah. It was funny because like, I figured when I quit my job, or I was at 200K, I was like, man, first year, if I could do this kind of like part time, I could double it. I could do 400K. And I actually didn't end up doing that. And it was like, at the end of the year, I was like, I was kind of distraught by it. I was like, man, only 50K more. And I'm doing this like my full time. I was really kind of upset by it. And that was kind of like a hurdle out of you over. And then, I was like, man, this year, I'm going to double. I'm definitely going to do it. I had it on my desk. I'm like, look at it every day. I'm like, I'm going to do 500K. That I know that's what I'm going to do. That's interesting. So what was the biggest needle mover from 250 to 500K? Because that's the URI. You're like, you did literally, you know, you doubled that in one year, which is insane. Actually, that's pretty insane growth. Like, what were the most important things that you did that got you to 500 plus, do you think? Yeah, I think it's two things. And this might be oversimplifying it. But honestly, the longer that you stay-- that I've noticed at least-- the longer that you stay in your niche, and the longer that you are the guy to go to for anything in regards to your niche. So if someone has a job that they need filled and they come to you, or if someone is looking for a job, they come to you. It is just got-- I hate to say this, but it's gotten easier as the years go on. So I think that first two to three years are kind of tough because you're still trying to make a name for yourself. People don't really know you. Or you've never talked to this person before. But now, if a client comes to me like, hey, I need a project manager. In my head, I have like 10, 15 project managers, that I know that I could reach out to. So when I talked about efficiency earlier, it's really figuring out how to be efficient, and really being able to do things in five hours and compared to 10 hours a day. And that comes, I think, largely within being in a niche, and really knowing your niche really well, which I know, I hear a lot of your guests in your package all the time. So-- Interesting. So do you think that the biggest needle mover for the fourth year was just momentum build from the network at that point? Do you think Jeff was it like, oh, now I've got more clients, more candidates, now it's just about more volume? Or like, is that my accurate there? Or was I missing one point? I would say that's definitely one of them. I would say that so momentum, like you were saying, is probably one of the aspects of it. Another aspect of it is I really-- this past year, I really up my sales, like, outreach. So before I was working with a lot of the same clients, I thought that I could just be like, oh, I could just work with these clients. And I was doing some new business outreach. But the past year, so I really amped it up. And that was-- I branded my LinkedIn. I did all the things that-- because when I worked in my software sales job, I didn't have it on my LinkedIn, because I didn't want my company knowing that I was doing both at the time. So that first year, I really had to make a name for myself. And I was-- we talked with like, I don't post LinkedIn. I know that's a big marketing tool for a lot of people. And that's something that-- that's a lever that I want to pull eventually. And I want to be able to do that because I think it's a great marketing tool. But I think that, you know, upping my sales, outreach, and like, you know, my-- really kind of just my activity was huge. Because the year before that, I really-- I had like five, six, seven good clients that would give me repetitive, you know, good business. But I'm going out there and forming these new relationships and reaching out to people and using like the sales skills that I've learned for so many years has really helped me this past year. And, you know, this year, I think as well. So-- Awesome. Sorry, Sam, I'm just one more question, because I feel like it's so relevant. And so, more outreach is fascinating for me, because it's very kind of-- it's a simple kind of tangible thing that other people can take away from this. So what was-- what was the difference between the outreach, maybe not exactly down to the number, but like roughly doing like two outreaches a day, and then the following year to get to 500, you did 10, like, what was the difference between outreach in terms of like volume or hours or some sort of metric? Yeah. I would say like my goal was in my head, and I didn't always set this, but it was like 10 new business activities every single day. Cool, interesting. That was like, you know, 50 a week. It was either like reaching out to people on LinkedIn through emails, and you know, just my-- everybody has a different process, right? So like, my process might not work for everyone, and someone else's process might not work for me. That's what I love about recruiting. I think it's very much an art. Like, everybody could do things differently and have different outcomes. There could be a million dollar billar that only cold calls, right? And that's great. But for me, I feel like it's much more about, you know, cold outreach through emails in LinkedIn. So yeah, for me, it was just like finding people with my niche that are hiring managers, owner, business owner, right? Anything within my ICP, my ideal prospect, and reaching out to them, and just like letting them know. And you know, it's one thing about finding those people, but it's another thing about bringing those people value where they'll potentially-- if they don't want to work with you today, if they do great, but if they don't, maybe they want to work with you a year from now, or two years from now, right? So that's why the niche is also so important. Amazing. Interesting. I'm curious, Jeff. If someone said to you, right now, hey, Jeff, go start another business. You've already chosen your niche. What method would you use to win clients? If someone said you have to choose one, and do that straightaway, where's your brain gravitating towards? You're talking about like one like outreach source. Yeah, if there was one method that you had to use to grow a business from scratch, what would it be? Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say, man, it's obviously between email and LinkedIn for me. But I would say probably email, just because not everybody is on LinkedIn. And I think when you get-- my end goal is always to bring it back to email. So if I reach out to someone on LinkedIn, and we have a good conversation, I'm like, hey, can I shoot you over an email? Or do you think it makes sense for a phone call? Really to get out of LinkedIn? Because it's just million messages. It's tough to kind of sort through. But I would say probably to your question is email. I think cold email in sales is like, if not the best skill set, it's one of the best skill sets to have. It's just it's so important to be able to write well and to articulate and be sufficient, right? I guess it's efficient, not having a 700 word email. But being able to say what you want to say in 300 words are less. Yeah. That's really helpful, dude. And so you're. you would choose email and talk me through, 'cause if someone just said, hey, Jeff, here's an email domain in a laptop. How would you go about then winning business? Like do you go to candidates first, you go straight to clients? Can you talk me through your process of what you would do like right now to win a new client? - Yeah, well so right now in my business, if I wanted to like find a new client in my business right now, or like if I were to start a new one. - If you were to start a new one, like just, 'cause I'm sure now you've got a network, you've got referrals, like it's a different game now, isn't it? - I'm thinking like brand new, what would you do? - Yeah, yeah, no, it's a really good question. And I think what I would do is I would probably find a really good candidate, right? Like I know people talk about NPC approach all the time. I have two different approaches when it comes to sales, right? And if I were to start a new business right now, obviously your focus would be trying to find clients, that's who pays you, that's who you work with, that's at the end of the day, that's how you grow your business. So I think I have a two-pronged approach in my sales technique, and this is kind of how I would do it if I were to start a new business. I would take an NPC, right? So I would say find the most placeable candidate and really take that person and market them to my niche, right? So let's say if I was doing like manufacturing in Chicago, which I know nothing about. But if I did, I would find a really high, like a long-tenured candidate that's open to new opportunities, in whatever way that is, LinkedIn, email calls, whatever it is, find that person, and then market them to that manufacturing industry in Chicago. And again, find your ideal client or ideal client profile. I'm LinkedIn, find their contact info, email them, call email them, LinkedIn message them, really just try to put a name, like a name to a face or whatnot. So they know your legitimate, right? And you're LinkedIn profile. And then come up with some type of copy and call email to get them to ideally respond to you. So I would say, I would definitely use call email and then the NPC approach. And then the second approach that I have is more like, it's more like finding job openings, right? Like people posting them and then pitching candidates. So I think there's two ways. You can find an NPC and market them essentially their skillset. Like, hey, don't know if you have a need right now, but I have a candidate that I'm working with, thought he might be a good fit. Think there'd be any interest in taking a look at him. Like, not sure if you haven't even, but think there'd be any interest taking a look at him. Or the other approach is, hey, saw your post looking for a manufacturing, project manager in Chicago. I'm working with this candidate, 10 years of experience, here's a skill set. Think there'd be any, not sure if you're still looking, but think there'd be interest in taking a look at this candidate. So that's kind of the two-pronged approach I take. One of them is an NPC and the other one's more like a general and like marketing, they might not have a need, but they might in like six months from now. - Nice man. - Love it. And what would you say is more successful for you? Is it the job ad route or is it the normal kind of NPC route where you're just kind of being broader? - Yeah. So the NPC route where I'm marketing a candidate that I know that they have a job opening for, I have a much higher response rate. - Yeah. - Where it's like, there's a job posting, right? 'Cause like that means they have a need for sure, right? Like essentially they have a need for sure, whether it's filled or not. - Yeah. - They had a need. So my response rate is much higher. And I was telling you Ben, I think, so my response rate, my first email is about 7% and my second email is a little over 7%, like 7%, 8%. So my response rate is pretty good on those. I think relative to like maybe most cold emails. And when I'm marketing a candidate that there is necessarily a job posting for, just like a, you know, this skill set might align with your company or what you do. It's a little bit lower, it's more like five to 6%. But in both scenarios, it's not like every single email back response is like, hey, we want to talk to this guy. A lot of times it's like, hey, thanks for the email. You know, we filled this role or we don't use recruiters or we're not using recruiters right now, but we'll keep you in mind. And you're like, you know, sometimes like, let's reach back out in six months, right? So it's definitely not all like, let's get out on a call and talk about it. It's candidate. But regardless, if you're niche, that's something that you want to know, right? So like that is a good person, just make content with. 'Cause now they know you. Now the next time you reach out, you're like, hey, I saw you post another job for a project manager. We talked six months ago, it wasn't good time. You think now would be a good time to talk about this candidate? So, you know, we were talking about niches earlier and starting a business like, it's just the long game and delayed gratification is in recruiting that I found is just so important. - Mm-hmm. - How interesting. I'd love to just go into, 'cause when we spoke as well, Jeff, you said that I was quite surprised by the volume of emails that you sent. It was, you said you sent 300 cold emails last year and cut from wrong that you got a big chunk of business from those 300 emails. And I was quite surprised 'cause over the year, that's not a lot at all. Like some recruits send that in a day. I mean, that's excessive, don't get me wrong, but like, or in a week at least, you know, or maybe even a month, but they'll send way more than a whole year. So, what are you doing differently and why are you only sending 300? How are you making it work with 300? It's probably a better question. - Yeah. So here's the thing. I've heard, I think when I get into recruiting, I saw much YouTube videos, right? I was like, doing research and, you know, like everybody kind of like researched before they started business. And I knew too, I saw people are like, send out 10,000 cold emails a month. And in my head, I'm like, man, how could anybody do that? Like, how could anyone receive an email from those 10,000? Be like, I'm gonna respond to this, right? So like, I was like, I gotta figure out a better way to do this. And that is kind of when I was like, I need to figure out my approach and how I'm gonna do this. And, you know, a lot of like, my sales thinking is like, you know, zig when other people sag, right? Like, everybody's using AI, everybody's using clay. You know, I'm sure you guys get all these automated emails, just like I do. And I ignore, you know, if it's not custom, I will respond to every customized email that I get. If I know that someone is reaching out to me and it's like personal, I will reach out. I will respond. But if it's an AI email, or if I know it's like clay or spam or whatever, like, I'll never respond. I always delete them. So my 300 cold emails, like this past year, were all super personalized. And that, I think that's why my response rate was so high. So it's like, would you rather send out 10,000 cold emails a year and get a.505 response rate? Or would you rather send out 300? Your name's behind it, your brand, your company. Where the client knows your legitimate, right? And it's a legitimate email because you read, maybe their job description or their company and what they do. And you personalize your email or your outreach to what they do, like, you know, show me, you know me. I've heard that phrase before, I really like it. Show me, you know who I am. Show me, you know what I do. And that response rate is just so much higher. So yeah, I think knowing your niche has a lot to do with that, right? You can speak their language if you know their niche. I mean, construction, I can talk about projects, types, and different types of construction. Where I think if a generalist probably reached out with 300 emails, probably wouldn't be able to speak that language. So I think that's a big part of it. But yeah, I would say that is super important, like what is in the message, right? And how you deliver it. And so to that point, like how you deliver your message and what you're asking for or what you're reaching out about is so important. You know, I'm sure you get these emails too. It's like, hey, you know, I'm going to tell you this software. It's tomorrow at 3 PM, a good time to talk. And it's like, no, it's not a good time to talk. It's like, you didn't bring me any value about talking to you at 3 PM. Like, what are we going to talk about? I don't need your software. I don't need your ATS, you know? So like, no, it's not a good time to talk to 3 PM. But if someone came up to me and they're like, and I'm just using an example, I don't know. But if I'm a software person selling like an ATS, like, you know, some people are having this issue. I don't know if you're having this issue, but you know, you think it would make sense to talk about this issue. And like putting the ball in my core, right? So lead by asking if it's a good fit. And if they think it's worth their time, instead of assuming, right? Because when you assume you would never go up to someone and see someone on the street and be like, hey, can we talk tomorrow at 3 PM about this issue that I'm having? It's like, no, I don't need to do that with you. Like, that's not important to me, you know? It's like, hey, do you think this would be worth talking about tomorrow at 3 PM, right? And they're like, yeah, maybe it would be, right? So like, really kind of, and it's not what you ask about how you ask it. I just want to give the listener's contact. So you've sent 300 emails and you've got, you're getting a 15 to 20% response rate, which is pretty insane. So you're getting between out of those 300, if my math is correct, about 45 to 60 responses, which is pretty insane. That's like, that's a really good ratio, if you think about it, like that many responses. I know not all of them are going to be like, yes, let's work together, but still, like that is 45 people that have come back that you can start a conversation with. Yeah, you know, warm and nurture. I'd love to get into like the email structure or just as much information as we can, you've already kind of given some insight, Jeff. I'm going to share what you feel comfortable sharing, but I kind of want to be in a fly in the wall. I'm like, I want to look at you and paint behind the scenes. And what is Jeff typing? What is he saying? How is he? Yeah, I responses. What are the core things that are allowing this to work? Do you think? For sure. So I have a couple, like, I'm happy sure as much as, you know, you guys want to hear about it. And I think that's, you know, what it comes down to at the end of the day is just being authentic, right? Like really understanding what, you know, what you're reaching out about, right? So first, I would say some, like little things that I do that it might be a little bit different from what other people do is, my headlines are always lower case. Why not seem like a big deal? But works for me all the time. I never use capital letters. I'm sorry. And I do this for a couple of reasons. Number one, no AI machine or bot is gonna use lowercase letters, right? So they know that it's coming from me if I use lowercase letters. I will say in the past like three or four years I've been doing this. I don't have the numbers unlike my response rate, but this is the candidates. I do use like proper punctuation declines because I just think it's more professional. But to candidate for candidate outreach, always lowercase. I had one time in the past three or four years where I had someone respond me and say, I was unprofessional for not using capital letters and I thought it was kind of funny. But I would say even to clients, my headline, my subject is always lowercase, right? Because they get so many emails and it's always either one or two words, right? It's always something like, saw your post or PM or whatever it is. It's something related to my copy, right? In the email. Yeah, I'm standing for Project Manager. Project Manager, right? Yeah, or like, you know, like if it's like a restaurant project, like Chicago Restaurant Project, right? Like something that they know in the subject line that I read, right? That I read maybe their job description or something that applies to them, right? Because then they're going to open it, right? Because if you send a, you know, I'll cap like a very proper punctuation with a semicolon to, you know, to prospect, they're going to think it's just an automated email, right? Because 90% chance at these days that it is, right? So something that I have a lot of success with, you know, other people might think it's crazy and might not like it. But I see a lot of success with that. Awesome. And then what's the body look like, Jeff, again, you have to give us a word for word, but like, what are you just saying? Hey, I've got this candidate. I think we had an example of one yesterday from a top, but it was super similar. It was like, hey, I've got this candidate or the sales director here are the three things. And then he said like three biggest things, the three tangible things that were selling that candidate. And there was like, are you interested in meeting him or you're interested? So super simple. That's right. Is it like any more complicated or if they're similar to that or? Yeah. No, that's solid. So yeah, I was talking earlier like I try to keep everything I read under like 300 characters. I just find that's like a sweet spot. If you go anything more than 300 characters, like you're in my opinion, like if someone's reading it on their phone, they're not going to scroll and like read it. So I try to keep everything 300 characters. I space out all of my lines or like paragraphs. I never have more than like one sentence in every paragraph, which I think is just like for reading. It's just like very quick. But in terms of like the copy that I actually use for my outreach for potential clients, it's always something along the lines of like, hey, saw your post looking for this skill set. Let's say a project manager is like, hey, saw your post looking for a project manager. Like not sure if you're still looking but working with the candidate who has this skill set and then you know, briefly talk about a skill set at a very high level. Sometimes they even mentioned the company that he's at or she's at. And like not sure if you're still looking, but if you are, I think there'd be any interest in taking a look question mark, right? And then they get back to be like, no, thanks. We already found some owner. You know, we're not looking anymore or they get back to like, we would love to see this person. You know, let's jump on a lot of times. Honestly, a lot of times people will just pick up the phone and call me and be like, hey, you see what I'm about this candidate? Like let's talk about it. So like I don't even have to call someone, you know. So. And how are you selecting? Because this is really interesting. Again, we asked this yesterday. So it just came to my head. Jeff, how are you selecting? And let's maybe let's go with project managers because you mentioned it a few times. What's the difference between a good project manager to NPC and like an average project manager to NPC? How are you selecting the project manager and how do you know he's going to be or she's going to be good, do you think? Yeah. It's a really good question. And I think that's kind of tough. I think that's about knowing your niche, right? So like knowing what clients want, right? So that that, you know, I work in construction. So I guess I can really kind of relate it back to, you know, engineering and construction. It's like people, excuse me, want candidates that are tenured, right? That have been the role for a while. I've done, you know, projects that are similar to the ones that they work on either in scope or, you know, dollar amount, you know, maybe have like a good reference or two that they've connected you with that they can speak for them. So I think really kind of evaluating like what clients want and knowing what clients want is super important. And again, that all comes with experience. If you're just starting and recruiting like you're never, you're really not going to know what clients want until you talk to clients, right? So you have to be willing to like put yourself out there and it's much, much easier to have than done. But you really kind of have to like be willing to put yourself out there and like be curious. Like even mentioned the fact like, hey, I do this a lot when I first started recruiting like, hey, I really have been doing this for that long. Like, what is a good project manager look like to you? Like, you know, what kind of project manager you typically hire? And like they love when people are curious because those are questions that people don't really ask them, right? Like they usually just send them a resume and be like, one's a good time to talk about this candidate. It's like, never. Like he's not a good candidate. I don't want to talk to you about him, right? Like, I'm not going to talk to him. And then you lose credibility. So, you know, having those conversations, just like asking, like acknowledging the fact that you might not be, you know, the most experienced person or necessarily know what a good project manager would look like. And not all the time, but a lot of times clients, you know, love telling you what their perfect candidate looks like. Awesome. Interesting. What the guess we had yesterday said that only 20% of all his NPC campaigns get responses where the client says, Hey, we'd love to have a chat about this candidate, but majority of them are like, Hey, this is a good candidate. Don't need this candidate by need someone like this. I'm curious what your, what's your main response? Because that's how it opens the door for most conversations. It's not that candidate is actually someone else. I'm just curious if you experience the same thing. Told you. I was actually going to mention that a lot of times it's a conversation starter. So it's like, Hey, you reach out to us about this candidate. You know, we're not looking for a project manager, but we need, you know, superintendent or we need an estimator or we, you know, we need an, we need an engineer, right? Like we need a civil engineer, not a mechanical engineer. Can you help us with that? So, you know, maybe they, they see your email, they look at your LinkedIn, they go to your website, like, Oh, this guy's legit. He works in our niche. You know, he lives in Chicago. We work in Chicago. You know, this is a good guy to talk to about another opportunity we have. So for sure, that happened. You know, I don't have the numbers in terms of like what the percentage is of those types of conversations, but it definitely happens all the time. And it's great. And the other thing I'll say about that is like, and I know people do this, but I never reach out to people with NPCs that I don't actually like have or talk to. Like, I just could never reach out someone with a candidate that I'm, you know, that I'm like making up, I guess, because if they ask to see the resume or they ask, like, talk about them, like, what are you going to do? You know, like, you just talk about ability. So I would say like really finding someone legitimately and not like just, you know, making it from my opinion is super important because like, you want to have a sort of fall on if you actually have to present that candidate, you know? Yeah. So funny. We've had quite a few billers on the pod Jeff and there's definitely a category recruit is that okay, making up the candidate? Yeah. And then there's a category that are like very stern, like no, don't do that. It's just fascinating. Totally. Yeah. But yeah, so I go ahead. In my opinion, like, I definitely think that there are people that probably get away with that and can do that. Or honestly, this is funny. I didn't mean to say that, but like, I think honesty is just such a big part of recruiting. You know, like, want to be honest and transparent and like, it separates you from like 95% of people in the recruiting industry. And I'm generalizing. But I just feel like so many people are like, you know, well, maybe like tell the white lie to like get in front of a client or even a candidate, like talk about a client that they're working with that, you know, isn't necessarily correct or truthful 100%. And you lose credibility, right? It's like that client's never going to want to work with you again. That candidates that we're going to want to work with you again. And it might not be good fit right now, but six months from now, that client will be like, oh, he was honest, you know, like he didn't, he didn't lie about the candidate he was working with. I've had a million recruiters reach out about candidates that were just to get a conversation started. So it's my opinion. Right? Other people could do things the other way and it could work for them. So I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer, but I feel most comfortable presenting, you know, legitimate candidates. Yeah. And I completely get that man. I understand the thought process behind that. Ben, is there any more questions you have on NPC? I had kind of a different question. Is it still be still be the focused kind, not really know. Okay, cool. I've got a BD focus question, Jeff, because, um, correct, I'm wrong. You've got a follow up process and you also use LinkedIn as well in combination with email, which I find interesting. Can we talk a little bit about that? What are you doing? Like with follow ups and or LinkedIn? Like how are you? I've got here and forgive me, your follow up emails out before your first emails. All right. So you get more responses from your follow ups than you do from your emails. Is that correct? Yeah, for sure. Interesting. Yeah. My follow up emails are first are like really simple, honestly. It's always like coming from a place of like curiosity. It's always something like, you know, to start the new year, right? It's like, well, my clients are really busy. So like my follow up email right now is like, hey, I know it's a start of the year and you're probably super busy. I hate to even ask this question, would you have any interest in taking a look at this candidate if you're looking? Right. And then they're like, three disabling. Three disabling. Yeah, it's hard to say. Exactly. You said that. Oh, interesting. Exactly. And they're like, oh, like so sorry. I didn't respond to your first email. Like, I am super busy. Like you nailed it. And now is not a good time. But like reach back on six months, you know, something like that or like, you know, we're not looking right now. But, you know, we might be soon. So like, let's stay in touch. You know, sometimes they don't respond. But really kind of coming at it from like a place of curiosity instead of a place of assuming like I deserve to talk to you is, it's just so important. I was sure I think about like, how would you want to be reached out to? You know, I really don't like when people number one called call me like, and I'm busy doing something like, oh, again, this is a hot take. Like, it's just not my thing. I agree. Yeah. I would rather get like a LinkedIn messenger and email and like decide whether I want to be with that person. So it's really, again, it's like about how you say it and not what you say, you know. - Yeah, I'm so amazed that, 'cause I mean, co-calling still works, but I still hate receiving co-calls. And there's definitely a portion of the market that still like receiving co-calls, obviously, 'cause it still works, I think. But yeah, it goes more early. - It goes more early. - It goes back to today. I had like five people trying to call me. I was getting so annoyed. I was like, I'm not picking up the phone. You need to email me or text me. - Totally. - Yeah, exactly. And then if you can like read about it, right? You're like, hey, like this might be an interest to me. Like, I could take the call, right? If someone calls you and like, you feel like they're trying to pressure you into selling you something. And again, this is all my opinion. Like, people get disagree with this. But I'm like, it pushes me further away from wanting to meet with them. You know, they're like, hey, they do their pitch on the phone, and I listen to it, and I'm always like, hey, I appreciate, like, when I get down, I'm like, hey, I appreciate the hustle. Like, you know, it's fine. And then they come back with like a response, like to try to trick me into meeting with them. And then I'm like, all right, now I'm like, pushing away a little bit, you know? So. - Yeah, it's funny. - Yeah. - And art, you know? - I'm sorry, just to clarify on the follow up, Jeff, how many follow ups are you sending? So it sounds like they're fairly simple. It's more about timing. How many are you sending? And at what points in the sequence? - I usually just send one to be honest. - Oh really? Okay, interesting. - Two, two, I send one email, I initially email about the MPC. I've experimented with sending three. The third one, like, does really poorly. The second one has been, you know, usually the best performer. - Yeah, interesting. - I had that when I was doing heavy email as well. I used to send a loom video and then the second video, the second email was always really good. And then diminishing returns from fard onwards for some reason. - Totally. - Yeah. - So, yeah, it's interesting. - And I think that, I think that for me, at least, like again, I was speaking from my experience. Like, I think that for me, I send two emails, you know, if they respond great, if they don't respond, then I also have the ability to reach back out to them in six months, or seven months or eight months, right? But if you send five emails to someone in a three-month span and then, you know, four months later, you send another five, you're emailing that person or reaching out that person 15 times in one year. It's like, that's kind of crazy to me, right? But like, if you send two and they, they're like, oh, I've seen this guy's emails before. Like, I know he's legit, I know he works in my niche and, you know, I know he's a recruiter. Like, they've seen me, like, they can put a name to a face, right? Like, they know who I am. So that when I reach out again, whether it's six months a year, two years from now, whatever it is, like, they know who I am. So that's a worser me. I think that like overwhelming someone to the point where like, they see your email and they shrug and they're like, oh, this guy again, like, I don't want to be that guy, you know? - Yeah, yeah, interesting. And sorry, just one more question around the baby. I'm sorry. - Yeah. - No, it's okay. - Yeah. The crowd, and I might be thinking of someone else, Jeff, so forgive me if I'm getting this wrong. But do you get a lot of your responses via LinkedIn from this process, or is it mainly via email? Like, where do you get the highest response rate? Do you think, is it directly via email, or is it via LinkedIn after you followed up on LinkedIn? Was it a mixture of both? - Probably a mixture of both. I don't know like the exact metrics for LinkedIn, 'cause it's kind of hard to track. I don't use any like LinkedIn automation. I know a lot of people do that. I'm just like to nervous about them, like banning my account. - Yeah. - I know. Good idea. - Yeah, I don't use any of the automation tools, but I get a ton of my LinkedIn messages. I get tons of responses, tons. And I don't know what the response rate is, but I would say it's probably similar, if not a little bit better to my emails, just 'cause it's easier for people to respond on LinkedIn, right, like they accept you. - And the other thing that I do, that I think is really helpful, is like, I use LinkedIn Sales Navigator. I don't use LinkedIn Recruiter. So I use Sales Navigator, and in Sales Navigator, you can send a note. I don't know if you guys have used this at all, or you use this at all. - I just know. Is it similar to what it's not the same principle of an email or is it different? So yeah, this is awesome. I don't know if you guys have started. - We use Sales Navigator a lot, but we've never heard of the note. - I think we don't really send messages on Sales Navigator, just 'cause notoriously, in-mails have always had such a horrible response, right, Jeff? But you obviously know something we haven't heard of before. What's this note thing? - Yeah, this is awesome. So if you go to LinkedIn and you go to Connect, and if you have Sales Navigator, you could send a note, and you can put 300 characters in a note. So every single one of my LinkedIn connection requests to candidates and clients have a note. And it's the same exact thing that we've been talking about. It's like my messages and my emails are almost exactly the same. It's a little bit different, 'cause I don't want them to think I'm just like copy and pasting it from email to LinkedIn. But all of my LinkedIn messages are like to a candidate, for example, it's like, hey, you know, first name, great to connect, you know, working on a PM role, I'm gonna be a good fit with your experience here. Like here's your experience. You know, not sure if you're looking, but any interest in a combo about it. Really good response rate. - Interesting. Same thing with clients. - I mean, sorry, Jeff, just to clarify, 'cause my brains get, are you doing this via Sales Navigator? This note, this note function? - Yeah, but if you have Sales Navigator, you can just send a note in your connection request. - Oh, no, it's the same, sorry, I'm being slow here. So what you mean is you're sending, you're sending a connection request, but yeah, you're sending a written connection request instead of just a random connection request with the correct random, but yeah, cool. And with, you know, got it, cool. - Yeah, 'cause the message goes to their messages, right? So like, - Yeah, of course, that's a really good point, actually. So as long as you can make it, is it below 300 characters or-- - Below 300 characters, yeah, interesting. - So that's my copy writing is so important, you have to be able to explain what you're reaching out to about in 300 characters or else. - That's a really good point. If you can keep it below 300 characters, guarantee to get in front of their face, that they're guaranteed to read it. If you can get that message below 300 characters, so sorry, what are you saying in that 300, roughly speaking, what are you saying in that 300 connection message? - Pretty much the same thing I'm sending in my emails, like, hey, you know, and again, I use all lowercase, like when I send these connection notes to people, and I send them myself, like, I don't automate them, right? Like, I'm like, hey, so you're experiencing, you know, this company, you know, not sure if you're looking or in the market, but I have a project manager, like a PM opportunity, you know, here's a little bit more about the job, like any interest in taking a look at it, or think it's worth a conversation about. - Love it. - And, you know, the response rate's really high, and I do the same thing on the client side. Every time, I actually reach out and LinkedIn with a note to a potential client before I send them a cold email. - Interesting. - So, I know-- - So LinkedIn is your first-- - Sorry, go ahead, Tom. - So LinkedIn is your first port of call to send that NPC pitch, and it will be through a connection message. - Correct, yeah, 'cause then they see-- - So, like, I'll do it, one day I'll just like go on LinkedIn, I'll find like all my, you know, ICPs, I'll send, you know, them all, whatever note I'm sending out to them, whether it's like an NPC or like, you know, candidate that I'm working with that I thought might be a good fit. I'll message them, I'll send my connection request in a note on LinkedIn, and you know, ideally they see it, they accept it, you know, sometimes they'll respond to it, but that email that I send to them, usually like the next day, sometimes they do it the same day, you know, it's like a warm email, right? 'Cause they see my LinkedIn. They're like, oh, this guy's a recruiter, he's in Chicago, he works in construction and engineering, like he's legit, and maybe they saw your LinkedIn request, but like, you know, people don't use LinkedIn as much as maybe we do, but they're always in their email, right? So like, it gives myself a little bit more credibility than to respond back to me. - Yeah, really interesting, man. - Really interesting. - So simple, but it's not something that we've heard of much, like, used in that order, which is interesting. - Yeah, and pitching the NPC in the Connect message is where I'm gonna experiment with that. - Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, isn't it? - Yeah, it does make a lot of sense. Especially if the message is good, Jeff, and you put the emphasis on like a good piece of copy, and you've got the, you know, a good candidate to the right client, that it makes perfect sense that it would at least say, except in B semi-interested. - Correct, yeah. - Because you're doing the same thing when you connect with Martin, you pretty much. If you've got an Anderson, the first message is gonna be, and the thing is, you might as well do it in the connection. - Absolutely, absolutely. And the other thing about that too is like, you know, they could accept your, this happens all the time. They can accept your LinkedIn connection request, not respond to the message that you've sent them, right? Like, that happens all the time. But now you have this person in your network, right? And now they're seeing everything that you're posting or commenting on LinkedIn. They're seeing the people that you're connected with on LinkedIn. So they know that you have a vast network of people in their niche, right? So, you know, it's, again, if it's not for right now, maybe you're not gonna work with them, but it could be six months a year from now. You know, I've had people reach out to me a year later, been like, "Hey, I know I didn't respond to this message, but like, you know, we're not looking for a project manager and we thought you'd be a good fit to help us." So. - How's that? - Awesome. - Who been? - You go ahead, Sam. - No, I'm just gonna say that I've actually got a client calling about 10 minutes, so I don't know what other, I've got one question in my head, "Vended, you have a. " - No, I was gonna ask certain questions I always do, but I'll say that to the very end, Sam, so you ask your question. - Yeah, I'm just curious. If you were to go back Jeff to those first couple of days, you know, Jeff, who just started his business and knowing everything you do now and you were to have a conversation with yourself, is there anything you would say to new Jeff who just started his business to make sure he would get to his goals faster? - Yeah, yeah, I like that question. I mean, Ben and I talked about this like a week or two ago that I think is super helpful in terms of like sales methodologies, right? Like, there's a guy that I follow, his name is Josh Braun. I don't know if, you know, Sam, you're familiar with him, but he's. - I haven't heard of him, no. - You know, he's a LinkedIn influencer and he's got like a really good sales strategy and a really good sales technique. And I discovered him, you know, maybe like five, six years ago. So I was just leaving my software sales job, just getting into recruiting. And I think his tactics and the way that he goes about like, something he says a lot is like, detaching from the outcome. So it's really like, you know, detaching whether that someone wants to talk to you or not, like don't take it personally, right? It's so easy to get caught up with that and recruiting is like, you know, if someone says no to you, you're like, oh, man, like whoever you are, like sometimes it just, it doesn't feel good. You know, hearing no doesn't feel good to anyone. But really, like, understanding that you have to detach from whether or not someone wants to talk to you or not and not to take it personally, right? Like, they're not, they're not saying no to you because they don't like you. They're saying no because maybe the time is all right. Maybe they just got a promotion in their job, right? Maybe they just moved. They just accepted a new job. There's so many variables that happen in this industry and his Josh bronze big, like one of his big principles is like detaching from outcomes. Like, you know, don't pressure someone to accept a job that isn't going to be a good fit for them, right? Because that's not going to be good for you. It's not going to be good for the client. It's not going to be good for the candidate. So really detaching letting people make decisions that are best for themselves is something that I wish I probably learned sooner. But knowing that, like knowing what I know now, like I keep a, I keep a post on all my desk like every day, it says detach. I just, I always look at it. And I'm like, okay, like that's suck. Like, I thought I had this guy, but like, you know, he, there's obviously a reason he's not doing this. So like, there's obviously a reason this client has one to work with me. Maybe they work with someone else, right? So like detaching from outcomes is just number one helps your mindset so much like mentally. And you don't waste your time, you know, like you're, you're not going to convince someone to take a job that, that they don't want to take it. Even if you do, it's probably not going to be, it's not, probably not going to work out for anyone in that scenario, you know? I've got, I don't know why I've got a mention this Jeff, but I remember when I was watching Josh Braun, I love his content, by the way, I think he's awesome. Yeah. I remember like, for some reason, he drifted out my algorithm. Then he popped up like a load, like he consistently popping up in my feed. And it was, it was when there was a period of, have you heard, have you heard of Justin Michael funny chance? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Justin Michael was like, trolling his content. Yes. You remember that? Yeah. Yeah. It was just so funny. Justin Michael was like, I don't know, just like being really weird about it and just like kind of trying to prod him and like, right, I know he didn't like, I don't know, like belittle him. It was, it was so weird, but I don't know why I'm like, I just want to know if you were like observing that as well. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I follow everything he posts and newsletters and videos, like I read every, I think being, like I've done all the sales and trainings and methodologies and like software sales. Nothing has hit for me at least quite like like Josh Braun and I, you know, I just think personally that in recruiting, like there's so many high pressure sales tactics, like I learned them in my first agency, like, you know, all these cold calls, trying to force people on calls or meetings with you, like it just doesn't work. Like, the other day, like you're going to spend so much of your sales calories on trying to convince people. One really it should be making sure that it's going to be a good fit, you know? So that's what he preaches and like that's for my personality works really well. I think that a lot of people in recruiting go about in the opposite way and when you, when someone hears from you with their like detached from the outcome, you know, it kind of settles people a little bit like, okay, like this guy, you know, he's not crushing me to take this job or jump on a call or, you know, and it makes people feel a little bit better. So yeah, I know we're wrapping up in a second, but definitely the biggest, the biggest lesson I learned in sales was just almost like being willing to push people away and not push people, I'm perfectly to sell them back, but just to be, as you say, detaching from the outcome is the best way to limit. For sure. Because then they can see you're being completely honest and just wanting to help them and you've got no other agenda. Totally. I think people can fish that and smell that, you know, very, very quickly and easily. Absolutely. Just in, sorry, if not Justin, you're not Justin, Justin Michaels in the head now thinking about him. Thank you so much for joining us today, mate. I really enjoyed this podcast. You gave some absolute golden nuggets today. So thank you so much, mate. Really appreciate your time and thank you for coming on. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was great talking to you both. Thank you, Triff. Hey, guys, thanks for tuning into this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love. (upbeat music)