192: How to conquer Internal Interviews - Part 2: Strategy & Preparation!

[Music] If we've been your job search besties and helped you in some way, there's a cool way you can support the show. Shout us a virtual coffee. As an independent podcast, we couldn't do what we do without your support. Head to bimeyacoffee.com/interviewboss. If you keep us caffeinated, we'll keep the content coming. [Music] I wanted to chat to you about the role and what you're really just doing is like for them to know who you are and you don't really have any questions. They'll be like, "Cool, what are your questions?" And you're like, "Ahhhhhh!" Yes, be prepared. So you have to come prepared with something that you're curious about. Hey everyone and welcome back to interview boss. My name is Emma. I'm a radio journalist who's teamed up with my sister to give you advice, inspiration and support when you're looking for a new job. Sarah is a HR and recruitment professional and together we're excited to give you all the tips, tricks and behind-the-scenes knowledge to help you in your career. [Music] Hey, Emma and welcome back everyone. It is time for our favourite part of every single week and every single episode. It's the shoot your shot shout out, which is all about you guys, our incredible listeners. You've gone out into the world, you've maybe used some of our advice, some of our tips, something from the podcast and you're reporting back with your results. And this week we're shouting out Lauren, who bought us three coffees. Thank you Lauren. Yes, she said, "Sarah and Emma, I've been job searching since October 2024. I went up for a big promotion at work and didn't even make it to the second round, despite doing the job in the interim capacity for six months. I was so bummed, but I knew I had to start looking for my next step. I've always interviewed well and thought that I had my preparation down. I discovered your podcast after getting a few second round interviews and being runner up in those searches. I also became determined to be more selective in both my applications and interviews and truly interview my prospective employers as much as they were interviewing me. This summer I found a position that matches all of my talents and interests, working as a public servant in local government and I went for it. I had my best bits nailed. I landed the job after two interviews, one job assessment exercise and three reference calls later. I'm very grateful for your advice, your humour and in particular the 'psych up and call down' episode for pre and post interview. After each interview I was only allowed to call two besties to vent and then put it aside as per your advice. Thank you again for spreading these best practices in interviews. I recommend your podcast often to the young people in my life who are just starting out this process. PS, I need to set the record straight on American coffee. So for context, two shout out to go, we had someone ask us about bluey, our coffee order, all the Aussie stuff and we may or may not have went on a tirade about American coffee and how bad it is. It's just not being up to our our high standards as a standard. We tied them all with the same brush and said everyone's ordering the two pumps of cold foam, milkshake, clapped free time, strawberry marcha, at Starbucks and like do they even know what just an authentic great latte is? And she's like hang on, don't dish my country like that. She's talking back, yeah. She's defending her nation's coffee. So she says, I'm a Californian and want to say we have some of the best coffee beans and wine. It's true about the wine. And some of us enjoy a straight cappuccino and espresso and even a flat white now and then as our drinks of choice, okay? Enjoy your coffees. Much gratitude from California. Oh, I really appreciate the clarification Lauren. And I believe you, I love that you're a barista coffee fan and that you're not having the one, two pumps of whatever. But there's a caveat. And I just think that if you haven't had Australian coffee, how would you know? Yeah, it's so, yeah. You have to come here, come here, okay. I think Lauren's giving me Laguna Beach energy. I think she's a cool Laguna Beach gal and I love it. Do you really know what it is? Yes, I do. I have a friend that lives there. Oh wow, okay. I don't know where it is. Okay, well it's a very cool trendy, whole food. Is it like from the hills? Is that the right place? I don't know the right location. Yeah. I'm also obsessed with Orange County because of the OC. Do Americans love the OC the way we love the OC? Because I think so. Marissa and Seth, like, I just. I think it's been more popular, like, since then it was back when it was on. You know what I mean? Like I've seen more about it. Yeah, not when it actually came out. And I'm obsessed with it. Like, California. Here we go. It's also a great song. It's a great song. It's my other sister, not on this podcast. We often imitate, what's the dead's name? Sandy, is that the dead's name? Oh yeah. When in how he makes bagels every morning and he's like, "You got a smear." It's so funny because in Australia we say smear, but he says, "Smir." So I saw someone on TikTok, I think it was, discover a bagel cutter. And they were like, "Oh my God, this is the coolest thing. How did I not know this existed? I found this cool thing or whatever." Yes, because you go like, "Din, dun." Yeah, and it cuts it perfectly in half. And one of the comments, it wasn't a lot of them, but one of the comments was like, "Clearly, you never met Sandy." Yeah, because this was on every single episode. And I didn't even, I wasn't like, I think I've watched it all maybe once. I wasn't like a mad OC fan. But even I remember the bagel cutter. Oh, that's seriously so good. A whole new generation doesn't even know that exists. So there you go. And look, I wanted to link back with Lauren, because this episode is our second episode about internal interviews. And she mentioned at the beginning, she was doing the job in an interim capacity for six months, and she didn't even make it to the second round. So brutal. I just want to say to all the people out there listening, who may be missed out on a job because an internal person got it. And you're just thinking, "Oh, I didn't even have a chance. The internal person always gets it." Well, tell that to Lauren, because the internal person doesn't always get it. And if you're listening to this and you're going for an internal job, you're not guaranteed it. And if you're an external person and there's an internal person, they're not guaranteed either. It's not guaranteed. It goes both ways, lots of different times. And I think it's very easy to kind of lean on, oh, it was this, it was that. It was whatever, rather than actually kind of accepting the result. So if you want results like Lauren, and you need a little bit of help to get there, you can check out Sarah's one-on-one interview coaching sessions. She has plenty of times available, especially for our Northern Hemisphere friends. If you don't see a time available, shoot us an email and she may be able to open something up for you. That is if you have something that you want really specific help in with your industry, your situation, a part of the interview prep, it can be a real power hour, half an hour. So they go for an hour and a half. They do, yeah. And I recently have always kind of gone for an hour and a half. But I just recently updated the website to say that because I just think that's how much time you need. So that's always what I was blocking. And if you need a full comprehensive guide and you need to start from the beginning and really overhaul your entire interview prep, we start with mindset. There are so many important things that happen in that module that I think people probably want to skip past when they first see it. But honestly, there's so many transformations that happen there. It's critical for the rest of it. There's a whole module on your career story, your intro, you absolutely nail it. Then you go through your best bits coming up with the most incredible stories. You practice, you refine, you work out what your tendencies are and you make them better. Worksheets, guides, like quizzes, all different ways that I've got for you to be able to learn things. You're not getting in there and just seeing some videos and PDF guides are my nemesis. So it's not just PDF guides, they're interactive workbooks. How good's the word nemesis? Reminds me of Perry, the platypus and Dr. Dufnichmerts. Yeah, it's a great word. My name and am a nemesis. Oh, my name and am a nemesis. Well, I hate him and he hates me. What a wonderful animosity. So good. Shout out to everyone that loves Phineas and Ferb. OK, now if you liked one of our episodes, you like hearing about Phineas and Ferb. You used a tip we sent you or want to request an episode on your niche, Kanundrum. Kindly follow us on Instagram, slide into our DMs, tell someone about the show, and we could dedicate a whole episode to you, which is basically what we're doing. This is our second episode on internal interviews, highly requested. Last week, we dove all the way into the mindset, because that is really half the battle. A lot of the advice is exactly the same, but it's getting over that mental block of feeling like it's embarrassing. There's imposter syndrome. It's weird. It's different. All the rules are out the window. It has to be special. Yeah, I've got to do something differently. So if you haven't already, go back and listen to that. This, we're going to get stuck into more actual practical tips that you can take into your internal interview. So another message that we got from our wonderful listener, Susie, Sus said, wondering if you have an episode on being interviewed by a panel of colleagues. I've applied for a number of positions at my organization. But I'm also an active networker, which means I often end up facing up to a panel that includes current and past colleagues and supervisors. Even my work buddies, I find this pretty confronting. For one, it can be challenging to get your pitch in as everyone, quote-unquote, knows you already. Please let me know if you have some life-saving content for this situation. Well, Su's needs to go on Listen to Episode 1 on this topic, but we've got plenty of other tips coming up in this one. Now, like we said, go on this department if you haven't already. If you need a guided process to prep for your internal interview, check out Interview Academy. There are dedicated resources and information for internal interviews as well. So you don't have to go through it thinking it's only for external interviewing at a different company. It'll show you how to adapt each activity for if you're internal. And if you have a tricky, specific situation that we don't cover here, maybe you need a coaching call. But for the rest of you, strap in. Bokala. So, first key point we're making. Prep, like it was any other interview. All advice applies. Sarah wrote this in our show notes in Capslox. She's yelling at you all. It all applies. Proceed as normal. I'm yelling nicely. Yes, I'm yelling nicely. Cugs and kisses because I think, particularly because we do lots of episodes that are really specific to situations. And so I think sometimes that leads people to feel like, yeah, but I can't find one that matches this. And we do tell them, hey, request an episode. We love doing specific situations. But I don't want you to have to wait for the episode or you can't do any prep. Does that make sense? Like, I want you to request it. But like, hey, I would have loved if this was here. This is a great suggestion, but also apply all the advice and all the other ones to your situation as well. Like, you'll have to use some transferable skills. Ooh, what about that? Yeah. But there are some extra things that you can do to help prep because it is internal, apart from all the regular advice. Things like, make sure your boss knows if it's in a different area that you're interviewing in another department. I haven't even considered that this is something to think about. So like, possibly if I'm going to change it up and I've interviewed in the promotions department, my news boss doesn't necessarily know because not always all the bosses are talking to each other. Yes, that's right. And what you don't want is for your boss to find out in some meeting or in a whole way somewhere or by chatting to one of their manager colleagues that they're meeting with Emma to interview her to transfer. And they have no idea. And they will be caught off guard and embarrassed. And we've talked about on this podcast before, how managers react to when they're caught off guard. It's not good. They don't like being caught off guard, but don't like not knowing stuff about their own team. If you're an internal interview, do they still call references? What if your reference is that boss? Does that ever happen where they do a call or do they just go and go, "Yeah, Steve, what do you reckon? Is she a good worker?" So it doesn't happen in the same way. Like they don't call the person and conduct two reference checks in the same way. Unless it was like an internal, but like a different organization type thing where they were separate from each other, there'll be some kind of internal process, whatever that kind of looks like. Normally, HR is involved to some extent because they need to make sure that that person isn't like underperforming in their current role. There's no issues in their current role. There's no like, "Oh, can we transfer them out?" Because that department is critical and your role isn't as important as that. All these things that they would have to look at, it'll be different in every kind of company. They typically won't do like a formal reference check. They might if they need to speak to the person and be like, "Hey, what are their strengths, whatever." But they will speak. "Don't rub your boss the wrong way if he or she is going to get a reference chat and they don't even know." Yeah, "Iky." Exactly. Look, you're going to have to insert your own knowledge here because I get that there are really large companies and there are potentially times where you don't need to do this and it would work against you to tell your boss. So you're going to have to insert your own company-specific knowledge. If you've got people internally that have navigated this process themselves before and they've told you, "No, you don't need to." And I don't think you should. Cool. Feel free to listen to them. But in general, just be wary of the fact that if your boss finds out from someone else, they might be upset about that. Even if they're upset when you tell them, they'll likely be more upset than that if they find out from someone else. So another thing you can do is reach out to someone who's interviewed previously internally because they might be able to tell you what kind of questions they use, what the structure was like, it's great insight. Totally. It might be different how things go for internal processes versus external. So your interview to get the job there might not be as helpful of a guard. There might be a different kind of thing internally. So if you've got a colleague or you know someone who's gone through that process before, have a chat to them, I think that can be really helpful. They can say things like, "Oh yeah, there'll always be three people on the panel. There'll be one from here, one from HR and then one from a random department." Or it'll be this person, this person. Or they always use the same questions or it'll be straight from the selection criteria. Or it's actually very chatty and it's normally just the boss and it's pretty informal and blah, blah, blah. Like it may give you an idea of what the vibe of the setup is like. Don't use that as gospel though. I think things can always change from different department to different department from time to time or whatever, but it'll be a good guide. Also speak to the manager of the job. So it's a gamble whether they will be willing to chat or not, but you can ask them a bit about the role, what the priorities are. You're trying to gather as much information and context as you can about what to expect. And this is the superpower that external candidates unfortunately can't do. So use this to your advantage and be a little hunter gatherer, find those berries and nuts and hoard them. And all of these things that we've just mentioned, like talking to your boss, talking to someone else who's interviewed internally speaking to the manager. Like you can't do any of those things when you're external. So these are all benefits to you. I know it can feel like it's harder because you know them all. You have it. There's also these benefits that you have that you can't do if you were external. So if you know who this position reports to, reach out to that person. Hey, I saw the job advertised. I'm looking like I'm going to apply. I just wanted to know if I can ask you a couple of questions about the role. Yeah, sure. Of course, all that might not be able to, oh, sorry, I can't chat to any candidates. That's fine. At least you've asked. At least you know. There's certainly not going to be upset that you've asked them. They might be like, cool. Now I know who you are. Thanks for introducing yourself. And if you're going to do that, make sure that you have some questions ready because you don't want to say, I wanted to chat to you about the role and what you're really just doing is like for them to know who you are and you don't really have any questions. They'll be like, cool. What are your questions? You're like, yes, be prepared. Now, run me through some of the things that you've seen happen when on an internal panel. Yeah. So I think a lot of the time it's hard to understand what the panel is going to get, particularly if we think back to Seuss, you've got current past colleagues, work buddies, like people who know you quite well. And she's saying it can be tough to get your pitch in because everybody knows you. Well, there's a lot of things that you don't know about that person sitting in front of you. Like, let's say the panel is the person's direct manager, the one-up manager, and someone from HR, which in the past would have been me. I haven't always been part of companies who do that form. All of the thing is normally just one person and me, like one manager and me. But let's say there's a panel of three. I think that's pretty common. Your manager, sure, might know you quite well. Let me talk about this a little bit in the last episode. Your one-up boss probably doesn't know a whole lot about you other than what they've heard from your manager, actually. And the HR person may or may not have literally never seen you before in their life. So you're a stranger. So how old are they really know you? But even if they do already know you and they work with you all the time, they don't understand the why. Why are you applying for this role? I think that's one of the key things about internal interviews is the why. They don't know that. They might think Emma just wants more money. When actually that's not the case at all. Emma has been getting sick of doing XYZ tasks and she really loves this part of her job and so she wants to go and do more of that or Emma's picked up a new degree outside of work that she wants to work towards or like all these different things that can be the why. Nobody ever talks about that in their day to day job of like why they're applying for this new role. Even if it's an obvious promotion, even if it's something you've been working for for a long time, they don't know why you particularly want it. The other things we can get to know that you can kind of see when you're on an internal panel is that you start to see how they approach their work, how they think about things. You might know what they've actually achieved and what they've done and what they're responsible for, let's say, but you get to see a little bit more of the behind the scenes. What's important to them? How do they think through decisions? You might hear some things that you didn't realise about them as well. They might be side projects. They're doing different departments. They've worked in just things that go on behind the scenes that you didn't realise and they can really, really make them appear in a very different light. You can think someone is, oh really, I think this role would be quite a stretch for them, just based on their job and what you know about them currently. Then they come into the interview and hear all this other context and how strategic they've been in what they've been doing and all their external experience you didn't know about and suddenly you're like, wow, they're a real content. for this role. It can genuinely really shift. You can even start to see, can I imagine this person in this meeting that they're going to need to attend or doing this role or liaising with this stakeholder or doing whatever it is? When they're sitting in front of you, you think, "Oh, wow, I actually can imagine them doing that role," and I didn't think I could before. Yeah. It's not so much about, "Oh, well, they already know that I've been here for four years, and I worked on this project." It's all the nuance behind it. Yeah, you're getting to showcase that. So don't think that, "Oh, they already know the facts. It's boring. What are they even going to find out about me?" I promise. They will be finding out much more than you would ever imagine. Yeah, totally. So what about career story? This is a real confusing point for people. Where do you start? Because if someone's been there for seven years, should it just start from when I entered the company and everything I've done since then? I know one person wrote to us and was like, "I've been here for 20 years. Do you really want me to go all the way back?" How do we do this? Do I go back to pre-company, pre-you know, back to uni or something? My first job? Yeah. It's going to depend. So something that I talk about in interview academy is kind of picking a point in time where you want to start. And it's going to be a little bit different for every person, but you have to make that judgment call. So if it is 15 years that you've been with the same company, it probably isn't very helpful to talk about your background before that. Unless there's something in your background before that that you really want to mention that you feel like they should know, then sure, mention it. But otherwise, yeah, sure, it might be okay to say I started with so-and-so 15 years ago in this department and then kind of work from there. But if you've been there four or five years, I think you can absolutely talk about your career before. It depends on if there's something there that you want to mention. Let's say you had jobs in a completely different field beforehand and it's not really relevant. You don't really see that many transferable skills to this industry. Maybe that's something that you just gloss over a little bit. You're like, when I first started by career, I worked in acting and then I found my way into customer success. Like, whatever it is, like you can kind of do that as part of your introduction. Maybe they didn't know you're an actor. It's a fun fact. They're getting to know you, you know? But you're then kind of spending most of your time in your intro focusing on since you've been at the company. And if you have been there for 15 years and you feel like that should form most of your career stories just within the company, don't be afraid to get into detail because just thinking about my workplace, there is so many people that have been there for like, you know, 10, 15, 20 years. But there's also so many people that have come and gone in that time. And often I catch myself chatting to these lifelong employees. And they'll just drop a bomb like, yeah, I was the head of this to be or that like they've done so much. And I have no idea because in the five years that I've been there, they've just been doing the same thing. So I'm like, oh, that's probably what they've always done. But I bet there's so much that they don't know, I actually started that project or I was in charge of this team and there's so much wisdom to share. Absolutely. But don't assume that they know it all. And even if they do know it all, I refresh her is always good. And talk about what parts you loved when I headed up the IT department. I thrived there. But then I really wanted a change and I tried my hand in sales and yeah, totally. And give the context for different movements and different things. Now your key point, this is I think the biggest thing you want to do in your career story, you have to hit the why for this position, for the promotion, for the move, for the transfer, whatever it is. You have to hit the why. Imagine you did your whole story about 15 years in the company and then you go to the end and you're like, and so that's where I am now. It just feels like, and so what the hell are you doing in front of me then? Like you've just explained to me how you got to your current job. Like there's a whole big question left unanswered. Why are you in front of me if you're so happy in your current role? So you really need to hit the why. Hang on, this could be tricky because what if like my current boss is a prick, but I can't say that because we all work with said prick. Like do you have to fake that like I want to change that always feels a bit vague. Like what if you just absolutely bored of doing the same thing every day. So you think, oh, grass looks greener in that department. They have a bit more fun. Seems a bit more exciting. Like how are we saying that in front of our current bosses and colleagues? Because I think it's important to consider that running away from something is not a good enough reason. Like for you even, like this is something for people if you're listening to this to reflect on it for yourself. Running away from something is not going to make you happy in that next job. It's just going to mean that you're away from the bad thing. It doesn't mean that anything about that new role is going to be good. So you need to find the thing in that new role that you actually are looking forward to and talk about that. Yes, that can be a little bit more sensitive, but I don't think that means you need to completely change your story. Like let's go into this was our next big thing that you should do something about is your why. So let's talk about this and we'll make sure to do some examples including the my boss is a I can't say that. I just don't want to including my boss isn't very nice. Sure. So how to find out your why. Talk about the jobs you've already done and make your why clear. So I've really enjoyed XYZ about the role, but I'm looking forward to being able to do X. This is where you get to go deep for an internal role. Sarah, you've heard people talk about this in coaching sessions about all of the normal like reasons that they love the job, but also specific internal things that an external person wouldn't know. Yes, that's right. Yes. And I think you have so much more of a deeper why when you are internal except because you're around it so often it feels like you don't and it feels like, well, this is the logical next step. That's why I want to do it. Why? Why? Like imagine you're talking to someone who isn't being annoying like me in a coaching session and going, yeah, but why? What do you mean by that? Well, why do you want more responsibility? What does more responsibility get you? Oh, well, I can make decisions. What does making decisions mean? Like why do you like making decisions just because you like to boss people around? Oh, no, it's not about that. It's about actually making a change. Oh, like what kind of changes? Oh, like the and then they get talking. I'm like, right, okay, now we're getting somewhere. You have to uncover those reasons. It can take a little while. Here's some examples of what I've heard people say before. Hang on. If anyone needs to practice that and you have a three year old at home, just bring them in. Get them to keep repeating why. Great practice. Why? That's the worst developmental age when kids discover the word why and just go into factory reset mode saying why and then you get so philosophical. Like why do we need to eat and you're just like, because we don't have to survive. You get a bit stuck in it. I think the best thing I've seen is people flip it back and be like, why do you think? I mean, like, yeah, that sounds pretty good. Hit them with the you know reverse card. Yeah, that's right. I mean, they're not going to keep asking themselves why are they? I'm sure it's not that easy when you're like, actually, I do want to answer this question. Like, why is this guy blue? I need to look it up. That reminds me of that ad. Do you remember the one I'm talking about? Why did they build the fence? Why did they build the Great Wall of China? Wasn't that what it was to keep the rabbits out? That's what a dad said in an ad. Yes, that's not the actual reason. Classic Australian ad. He just didn't know the answer and he just decided to say to keep the rabbits out and it's iconic and I'll think about that forever. So he's some stuff that I've actually heard people say. It might spark something. Hey, interview boss listeners. If the podcast just isn't doing it for you and you need way more help to prep for your next interview, we have the perfect thing for you. Interview Academy. Tell us all about it. This is huge. This is the love child of Sarah after doing hundreds of one-on-one coaching sessions, finding out what people struggle with the most common mistakes Sarah has created. The ultimate course that you can do in your own time, self-paced, heaps of modules, videos, interactive quizzes, a workbook that will become your bible by the end that you can take with you into your interview because if you're a long time listener, you know that we endorse taking notes into your interview. It's a game changer. Check out more about it at interview boss.com.au/interviewacademy. My dear's for you. I want to move to this role so that I can really help my department collaborate better with my old department. Oh, they want to be the bridge. Yes, that's right. Hey, this area, I deal with them all the time and I think that we can collaborate with them better and because I know my department so well, I'm going to be the perfect person to be over there learning how all that works, but I already know how my department works. Really, really cool. I want to be able to be more strategic and influence things that they see on the ground in their role. They want that ability to actually make change, make decisions and influence things. I think that's a really common one when you're going for promotion. They may want to develop other people and pass on their knowledge in a more formal way. Sometimes that's something you've been doing already in formally as a more senior person, your department showing people stuff. Now you might have that supervisor title formally or something like that. All of those things can be relevant regardless of whether it's a direct promotion or not. Think a bit more deeply about why you actually want the role. You've got to give some thinking time to this. It's hard, but sit with it and it'll come. Yeah. I honestly think that's sometimes the answer to a career story a little bit is it's actually the reflection time, the thinking time. You can't really skip to this. You can't really take someone's template and fill it in and go, "Yep, that's my why. It's going to be really great because it needs to be real. It needs to be true." The best. best wise, I'm just honest, but they've taken you a little while to come up with. That's why they sound so authentic and real. Your passion really comes through, you can hear that you actually really want it. Now, I want to throw something in here before we get into our examples of, you know, because I hate my boss kind of thing. Have you ever interviewed for a job that you didn't really want that much? No. It's hard. It's way harder than interviewing for a job that you actually really want. And people out there might hear that and go, what, how could it be harder than a job that you've put on a pedestal? Sure. Okay. Maybe not a job that you think is like your ultimate dream job and you're terrified. But a job that you don't really want that much. How do you get excited about it? How do you answer their questions of like, yeah, I've done that and blah, blah, blah. It's actually really hard because you don't really want the job. You're just going through the motions and you've kind of maybe realised, maybe it's further in the process and you've realised that, you know, maybe isn't really a good fit. It's very difficult to show up well, particularly for your intro and your why, for a job that you don't really want. And so if that's going to be you and you don't actually really want this role, you're just kind of getting out of something. It's going to be harder. It's going to be a lot harder for you to do this part. And they're going to be out of tell, I think, as well. And a lot of the time, a lot of the time, there are plenty of people who are applying who have got the skills and experience who can do the job. We want to hire people who can do the job, but also really want to do the job because that person is going to be more engaged. They're going to be a better colleague. They're going to be a better manager. They're going to stay for longer potentially like all these different things that come from someone actually being in a job that they enjoy. They don't have to love it and it'd be their, you know, passion, but there's something about it that is a good match for them. So I want you to think about that, even if it is running away from your current boss. So I'm putting you on the spot, Em, with all of that knowledge that we've just shared, how would you answer the why question if you were getting out of your department because you were just a bit sick of it and that job over there looked interesting. Feel free to make things up. You don't have to just stick to that reason, but that is the call or real reason. Okay. Well, having been in this department for seven years now, I really feel that I've achieved all there is to achieve. I've kind of learned everything. I've done a range of things and really just craving a bit of a change and this department seems a lot more creative, which is something I haven't been able to really explore. The team is really fun. I'm, you know, get along really well with everyone and I just imagine that I'd have a great time. Cool. I mean, it does sound a little bit like you're running away from responsibility into something that sounds flowers and rainbows and I'm sure that department is equally challenging. And so I would be maybe thinking about like, oh, does she have this fake idea of what it's actually going to be like, but we could tidy that up a little bit. Good first draft, great first draft. And see how you're not saying like, I'm bored and I hate what I'm doing. Like you being a bit like you've lost the excitement, like you know everything so well, like you written all the manuals and you're just starting to find it harder and harder to get excited about daily little things that you used to get excited about. Like you can say, I'm bored in a nicer way. Like you don't have to not say your board. You can say I'm bored in a nicer way. You just don't need to say I'm dead inside and I can't stand Darren any longer. He's tearing me apart. Yeah. And let's say it was, I hate my boss. Have a go at that one. No, you have a go. You tell me Mrs. professional. Okay, you're right. I'm going to try and go for a little bit more honesty than maybe some people would be inclined to do. You don't have to do it this way, but I just, I think I need to give an example of how you could actually do this. So in the last two years, I've really enjoyed my time with the company and it's a company that I really see myself staying with, which is why I've really looked internally for opportunities. But what I've been really craving is a leader and a mentor that I can really get a lot out of and can work with me on my development and savage. Unfortunately, I just haven't had that connection. I don't think you can expect to have that connection with every manager and every leader. And I've learned a lot of great things from Darren. But I'm hoping that in my next role, I can have someone who I can really partner with to grow and develop into the next stage. That was the most polite way ever to say Darren is so useless. And I'm dying over here. That was great. I need a mentor. But if they work with Darren, they're probably nodding along furiously. Like, yeah, make sense. That's Darren. You just know that Darren asks you constantly how to put something into Excel, how to connect to the printer. He's just got no idea. And look, like not every bad manager is a horrible human being. And so I don't think you need to like fully throw them under the bus. And if you are working for a really horrible toxic, awful, awful manager, do you really want to stay in a company that's going to like that keeps someone around like that? Like why are you applying internally? Get out of their fully true. Yeah. I'm also wondering how many US listeners are laughing at the way that we say Darren because they would say like Darren. I honestly just don't think that there would be anyone named Darren. Yeah. No. Have you seen the TikTok where the US guy that does the travel TikToks, he's wiggling out because in Australia, he's met so many Locklands. And apparently the name Lockland doesn't exist in the US. He's like, no, is this no, yeah, he's like, what is this Lockland like lucky like because Locklands go for Locky for short. And he's like, it's not a name. It does not exist in the US. There's no, because they can't really say it like, Laugh on. It's too much for them. Whereas we are just like Lockland. And he's just wiggling out over it. It's the best. What? Yeah. Comment on below if you live in the US and you do know a Lockland. Maybe this guy is just really uncultured, but he swears it doesn't exist. Take this class really uncultured. I honestly think that travel makes you do things like this because as an Australian who hasn't been everywhere in Australia and certainly doesn't profess to know everything about Australia, people make you speak on behalf of your country a lot. And just because I'm not familiar with something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And so I try not to make sweeping statements. But yeah, there are a lot of other people out there that are like, oh yeah, no, that never happens. And it's like, sure, in your life, like have you been to every place? Anyway, let us know if there's any US Locklands out here. But yeah, okay, great. So do some thinking, have a bit of a deeper why, but if it really is that your boss absolutely sucks, there is a kind way to convey that honestly without being really intense and negative. So what about another thing that people often are concerned about is if the role that they're hypothetically stepping into would require them to manage their previous colleagues. Yes. And this is a tip for if that's the case. So if you are all colleagues together and there's this job that's come up as your boss that you would be managing people that you used to work next to kind of thing, prepare for a question about how you would manage your colleagues. How are you going to go about? You used to sit next to Emma and now you're Emma's boss. How are you going to handle that? Yeah, you guys are friends and you're going to have to make the tough calls. How are you going to go with that? Yes, exactly. What's the fine answer to that? Because I feel like everyone's going to be like, it would be totally fine. We'd keep it separate and I have no problem. It's always just hypothetical. No one's going to be like, of course, it's not going to get it going. No one's actually going to say, oh, it's going to suck and I'm just going to let my friend get away with it. So I think I want to point out you asked the question in a funny way. You said, what's the right answer? There's no such thing. I know, but you know what I mean. It feels like what I mean is it feels like there's only one thing to say, which is, oh, of course, it would be fine. I'd just keep it separate and navigated and like I actually think that that, if someone gave that answer, I would think that's bullshit. I don't know if this person can handle managing their colleagues. I don't know if you've actually thought about how hard it's going to be. That answer would make me think that you haven't really considered this at all. Oh, it'd be fine. Oh, just keep it separate. I want an answer that shows me that you've thought about it, that you've actually thought about what the dynamics are going to be. Yeah, look, I have thought about that and look, I think because I started before Kylie and Darren, I think that relationship is already really naturally there because I'm constantly showing them how to do things, whereas for Jillian, Jillian's a little bit more senior to me. And so my approach for her would be a little bit different and he's how I would go about that. Like that is giving manager energy. Or even if you were like, look, I have thought about it and it's going to be a tricky transition for sure, but any potential awkwardness or uneasiness I'm willing to cop because I really want this and this is what I want to be doing, even just acknowledging like, yeah, it's going to be a little weird at first. Yeah, yeah. Or like, how do you think you could help those people in that role? Yeah, I'd really actually love to work with these people on these things. And I think I know that Jillian has also applied for the role. And if I was to be successful and she wasn't, I'd want to work with her on, how do we get her ready for this next level when the next opportunity comes up? Cool. You just need to think about it. You just need to actually reflect and give it some thought as if you really were in charge of them. How are you actually going to prepare to manage your colleagues? It's almost like. to answer the question, think about the question, which sounds like terrible advice, but I really do think people sometimes forget that if I'm asking you that, I just actually wanna know how do you think you're going to go managing your colleagues? That's what I want you to answer. That's genuinely what I'm looking for to see. - So what about how much context to give? So we know that they already tend to know a lot about us, but how do we navigate that? We don't wanna skip over details, but also don't wanna bore them by being really repetitive. - And we talked about in episode one, some of the mindset stuff around this, but this is down to tactics. So your goal is to explain things to them as if they don't know already. Imagine, and there might actually be someone like this, imagine that there's someone on the panel that's from the company, so they have general background knowledge, they know your clients, they understand certain lingo and references and whatever, but they don't know you specifically. There might actually be an HR person or whatever who is exactly like this. That's who you're telling your stories to. You don't have to explain what this product is that you sell. It's your biggest product. You don't have to explain what patients you look after and what wards, does that make sense? You don't have to explain the obvious stuff that someone generally working for the company would know, but assume that they don't know that you delivered that thing last week or that you look after this or that you manage that person. Assume that they don't know those things. It's okay for them to have a reminder. And you can use terms like, yeah, as you know, if that makes you feel more comfortable, like you're acknowledging it, but you don't need to gloss over it. 'Cause it can feel a little bit weird. I understand that's where people are coming from with. I'm explaining to Emma the thing that we did together, basically, like she was my boss and I reported to her every day on the updates of this project. She knows it very well, but it's not for Emma then in that context. It's for the other rest of the panel. It's reminding Emma and it's sharing it with the rest of the panel. So it's okay if you really feel the need to, like you really feel the awkwardness knocking, you can go, well, as you know, Emma, we had this project to deliver and blah, blah, blah. Like you can point to that person and be like, well, obviously, you know how it ended, but for everyone else, blah, blah, blah. Like it's okay to reference to call out the fact that yes, the person already knows this stuff, but you still need to mention it. And they might know about the launch of, you know, XYZ project or the task that you're responsible for, but they don't know how you think about things all the way that you manage all the bits and pieces day to day. So give them that insight. - Yep. Also, let's just reframe this for a second. Even if you're in a role where you and your manager, like your role's interchangeable, or there's a colleague there and you do the same exact job. And so anything you know how to do, they also know how to do. - Great. You think they know your role inside and out and you don't have to explain anything to them. I want you to think about for a second, if you were going into like a performance review or a salary review asking for a pay rise, what do we talk about doing in those scenarios, preparing a summary of your achievements? What have you been working on? What are the things that you've been doing? Why do you need to do that? Why doesn't your manager already have a list to remind your boss exactly? Because they don't, like, yes, they were there, but they don't remember, oh, how was that all this year? Wow, you have had a big year. They need a reminder. That's what we're doing. That's what this whole process is for. That is what we're doing. I hope there is a light bulb going off in someone's head. You're in the car. I can see you. You're in the car. And you've just had a light bulb go off and you're in it. - That's so true. Because if you were following the feeling or advice of like, oh, but I don't want to bore them, then you would never ever go in for a pay rise because you'd be like, well, the boss knows about how to do it. - Yes, and there's no need at all to remind him or sell myself. I'm just going to leave it in their hands. - Exactly. That's why we do all that stuff. That's why there's a self-reflection when there's a performance of view process because it's helpful for the manager to have a reminder of what you've done. Yes, they were there, but it's really, really handy. Even, I think, if a teacher writing a school report at the end of the year, yes, they know everyone. They were there all year. Doesn't mean they're still not going to look back at all your work to give you a little refresher on what you've done. - Yeah. What about the whole wee versus eye thing? This is another big concern of people is taking credit. What if there's someone on the panel that also played a big role? People think that if they use the word eye, that suddenly they're acting like the whole company rests on their back, that they have achieved everything. - Yeah. So this one, I get where people are coming from. This is probably the one that I think is potentially the most challenging to navigate to anyone who's on the panel. But do not feel the need to talk down your answers constantly by adding, oh, but it was a team effort. Oh, everyone was involved. Oh, I couldn't have done it without so and so. We're not doing that. They're not in the room. It's not about them. You're talking. You're telling your perspective. You can still use wee and you should use wee, but you don't have to constantly talk down your answers. It's not about that. Yes, everybody knows that it was a team effort. You already mentioned that there are other people involved in the actual story. Just have the ending be the ending. So we're not doing any of that. Minimizing. Telling a story isn't taking credit. So you have to get over it. - Some tough love right there. There is. But telling the story about what happened isn't taking credit. Me saying, oh, my sister and I launched interview boss. I did this. She did that and he's how it's going. Does that sound like I did it myself? Like I'm taking credit and bragging and it was all me? No. Am I entitled to tell that story? I was involved. Yeah. That's my story. Now if you're the kind of person that worries about this, you're exactly the person who doesn't need to worry about this. Because it means you are considerate of others. You're not the type of person to just take credit. So it's just not a problem. Forget about it. Get it out of your mind. That's enough. That's enough. Stop spiraling. Where this is actually potentially maybe a slight chance of coming up is the kind of person who's in your office who's coming into your mind right now who constantly takes credit for other people's things anyway. Yeah. Handsome of this worry over to them. And also like they're not listening to this. So you don't need to worry about it. What about practical bits on the day of the interview? Like do you bring a change of clothes and like dress up a level from what you normally dress up as? This one's a hard one. This is logistics. Like you just it's going to have to be. Can I give my gut feeling? Yeah, go. I think it's going to be really weird to just duck to the bathroom and re-up here looking extremely different. I think that's a bit weird. I think I would naturally just dress up a level for that day. It's not unheard of in the office. Like every now and then my colleagues pop in a bit nicer and you'll be like, oh, where are you off to today? And they'll be like, oh, I've got a meeting or I've got a funeral after work or like it's not unheard of. So I would just prefer that than coming out like acting as if I've just had a magician outfit change. That's a little weird to me. Yeah. I tend to agree. And I think that is the best way about it. You just dress a slightly nicer version of normal that you're allowed to within your uniform. But I think it is tough if you do have a uniform or something that you're required to wear to work that isn't what you would normally wear to an interview. And there's not really flexibility around that. Like for your interview, you have to go into the office and you would normally be working out on site or working on the floor or working in a different environment where you would wear different clothes. I think if there's like a change of location or like there's a before and after kind of thing where you can get back into your other clothes, if you have to go back to work, I think it's okay to bring a change of clothes. I don't think you want to make it look like, oh, it's a completely different person who even is this. I think that would be quite weird. But just do like your version of dressed up like smarter than normal. Like I'm imagining and I've done these kinds of interviews before. Like you're a trade and you're going for maybe a supervisor role or something like that or a role that maybe would require you to be in the office sometimes. I have seen people just get a little bit changed. Not like a fully into a suit because that would be really weird from what they, too much of a change from what they know they wear. That would be so strange. Yeah. I was just about to say my partner is a tradie and if he was going for a project officer job, he would not get changed. He would wear the same thing because it's tradie culture. But maybe you would get changed out of your paint covered, disgusting clothes into regular fresh normal tradie clothes. Yeah. Let's say I was raining that day and he's been out on side all day or whatever. He would at least get into fresh tradie clothes and his nicer version of a high v's or maybe it's maybe he doesn't actually wear high v's. Maybe he puts on like still a polo but it's like a bit of a nicer polo and he keeps everything else the same. He comes out in a dinner suit. Yeah, which would be really weird but I think if you normally like don't wear a jacket in the office but your business casual and you bring a jacket, great. I think that works if that's something that you're comfortable with and that suits the kind of office environment. I think it's okay to look a little different and I think it gives you taking it seriously. What about talking to your colleagues about the fact that you're going for the interview? Share what you said for certain answers if you also know that they're going for it. This is hard. This is hard. I think it's tough in environments where you're kind of all at a similar level or competing for the same role. Like I imagine if you were in a law firm going for an internal promotion and you were in a cohort of grads and you're all friends or your nurses and there's a job coming up but like you roll at the same level. level, does that make sense? Like those kinds of environments where you've started together and like you're a cohort, I think that makes it super hard. But it's hard just when there's colleagues from other departments as well. I think for this one, you have to try and follow what's your normal relationship with those people like. If you really don't know that person and they're just a colleague, like none of their business, like would you normally tell them how a meeting went? Like would you chat about what that person said and whatever? Like would you debrief a meeting with them? But if it's your work bestie that you're always chatting to, sure, you probably want to talk about how it went. Right. And you normally share everything. And then you wouldn't just because they've applied for it, that would almost be kind of weird. Like if you would share how an interview went, if they weren't applying for it, do you know what I mean? Like I think just try, like stick to what you would normally do. Whereas if they're coming around fishing for how did it go and you're like, we're not even friends, I would maybe be a little bit vague, polite and answer them, but vague. Well, with the whole, do you share what you said for certain answers? I'm team no. I'm team no. Remember when you'd come out of a school exam and everyone would be talking about it. And they're like, what did you put for question 12? And someone's like, oh, I put Switzerland. And then you're like, what? I put 67 and you just spiraling that you totally got it completely wrong. I get the answer be 67 and it's happened to me many times. Anyway, so I'm team that'll just make you spiral and be like, I should have mentioned something about that. I think talk about it in general. Like, I found it better than I thought or yeah, it was, you know, pretty relaxed or talk about the vibe, but I think I personally, I don't want to get into details of what each person answered. I think I'll just overthink and spiral. Yeah, totally. If I was close with the people that were also applying, I'm an overshare, I would share. Because I think I would learn. And maybe like, oh, I mentioned blah blah blah and I talked about these. I'd be like, oh, that's a really good idea. And I'd be able to remember that for future interviews. So like, I'd be sharing and also having them share with me because the interview's over. Like, they're not using it to compete against you for this immediate job. Yeah, that's true. Would I tell someone who hadn't had their interview yet? No. No, I wouldn't. Absolutely not. I'm not helping them do better than me because I went first. No way. Yes, don't get it twisted. What about after the interview? So like things like asking for feedback, how do you do that? Just ask. Okay. Maybe you should ask. You're way more likely to get feedback than someone who is external. Again, another massive benefit of being an internal candidate. You are way more likely to actually get genuinely helpful feedback. What are the things that you can work on? Now, I think where people maybe get a little bit mixed up is that they sometimes go for interview feedback. Particularly for internal. It's not necessarily like unless specifically that was the problem. You're amazing. We wanted to give it to you. Have all the skills. Your interview, like really let you down. Cool. That is useful feedback. Most of the time that's not the case though. Your interview is fine. You just haven't done the things that they were looking for. Yes. The interview is just the tip of the iceberg conveying it. But it's about what you haven't done, what you're lacking in. Yeah. You can't interview your way out of not having done the things that they were looking for you to do that somebody else had done. There's no way to interview your way out of, I've never done that before, and this person has. You're looking for feedback on what you should do in the next few months to get yourself to that level where you will be able to go for that role again. Is it more exposure to certain things? Is it experiencing something else? Is it hearing about more leadership traits? You can step up and look for more leadership opportunities in your current role. You want those bits of feedback. I would be emailing, calling whatever is appropriate based on what you have available to you. Not immediately after you find out you don't get the job. Maybe the next day something like that. Hey, thanks so much. Really wanted to understand I'd like to get to this role in the future. What are the things that you think that I can work on to get me there? If it's not your current boss, your current boss should absolutely be going through this stuff with you. You should nudge them though to remind them. It's not your current boss. Take that information and sit down with your current boss and say, "Here's the stuff I want to work on. I want to have enough leadership experience by the time this job comes up again." Yeah. For sure. You have a huge advantage being an internal candidate. It doesn't mean it's yours in the bag, but there is insights you can get. You're going to have the team more invested in you, invested in helping you get there if you didn't make it. Use all the levers available to you. All the lever cronk and so many TV references in this episode. Yeah. Stop overthinking. Stop worrying about taking credit. Did all of that, those limiting beliefs, stop it. Enjoy. Go forth. Godspeed. Yeah. And also the final message. It's not different. I know it feels different. I really know it does. Gone isn't an episode one again about the mindset. I know it feels different, but it's not different. All of our regular interview advice applies and sometimes that's the thing that is going to unlock at all is that it's not different. That's powerful. Thanks so much for listening to interview boss. If you like hearing the sound of our voices and our ridiculous TV show references, follow us on Apple or Spotify or wherever else you're listening or better yet, send this episode to someone who needs it. That's how we can hit the charts and help even more people all around the world. For more advice, inspiration, some sabable content, check us out on Instagram @interviewboss or follow me on LinkedIn. And can you believe we started interview boss in 2021? Not really. It's insane. That's a lot of episodes and a lot of hours of talking. Oh my gosh, it is. If you're scrolling through all of our episodes, you might scroll straight past something that you really, really needed. Yes, we're always getting messages from people asking us to do an episode on something and I'm like, we already have. So we've put together playlists to help you find the episodes that are exactly what you need suited to your situation. They're all categorized. If you're applying for jobs, we have episodes about resumes, cover letters, job ads. If you've been offered your dream job, we have episodes on resigning, exit interview, reviews and how to impress at your new company. And we even have a very special playlist that's very popular. If you have an interview coming up immediately and you need just our most recommended hard hitting episodes between now and then for all our last minute listeners, it's all there for you. You can browse by category and check out all the playlists at interviewboss.com.au/podcast.