Speaker 1Hello and welcome to the How Not to Screw Up Your Kids podcast. So pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat and enjoy the conversation. Today's episode, choosing our children's schools is probably one of those subjects that we spend a huge amount of time researching, wrangling with our brains about making the right decision. And whether that is your child's first school, whether it's their secondary school, whichever school it is, I think we spend a lot of time trying to work out which is the right one. So we may well be caught between two catchment areas if we're going down the state route. If we're fortunate enough to be able to choose with an independent sector, then we can be looking at that. And to some extent, sometimes even choosing schools can happen really when our children are not in school. So we can are younger and we're trying to work out where we might end up wanting to live and we might be moving. So it's a big decision. And of course, it's one of those things that it's great having a bit of expert advice. So I have reached out to Mel Sanderson. So this is an interview with Mel Sanderson from The Good Schools Guide. And they are the original unbiased, frank and fearless education resource that have been helping parents since 1986. I started lower six in school. So it's been a really, really long time. And what's been brilliant is that Mel's so frank about the advice that she gives, but also quite pragmatic and quite real. She understands the worries that we have as parents and how we can go about making some really informed decisions. Now, we will be sharing the link to The Good Schools Guide if you decide that you'd like to have a look and see some of their unbiased reports on various different schools. But in the meantime, here's Mel. Thank you. So lovely to have you here. I'm super, super excited.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1Now, what's probably going to be helpful for, I mean, obviously, I've heard of The Good Schools Guide, and I'm sure lots of people have, but it would be really helpful if you could just give a bit of an intro in terms of what is it and your role within it.
Speaker 2Yeah, sure. So The Good Schools Guide has been going since 1986. So we're coming up to our 40th anniversary next year. And we were founded by three mothers who were journalists at the time. And they wanted to really lift the lid on the kinds of schools that their children were going to be sent to. And at that time, they were looking very much at the top public schools, the boarding schools that everybody knows the names of. So Eaton and Harrow and Wellington College and those kinds of places. And we published our first book. It was very little more than a pamphlet, really, with about 200 schools in it. And our intrepid writers were very much undercover, lifting the lid on all the things that went on. And there was a lot more, obviously, that went on in schools in those days, because we didn't have then the safeguarding and the well-being things that schools enjoy nowadays. And over the last 40 years, we've really evolved to incorporate a lot more different kinds of schools. So we still operate very much in the same way that we did in the private school sector. But we also now have about, well, coming up to 40% of our secondary schools reviewed are in the state-maintained sector as well. So, you know, we really recognise the need for that. And that's an area that we're really focusing on. So parents can come to us and get a really good picture of all of their options. And what we are aiming to do is very true to our origins. So we tell parents the true, we give parents a true picture of exactly what it's like. We are not working for the schools. We're not part of their marketing department. We don't write things that they necessarily like. Mostly, they do like what we write. But sometimes we'll write things that they don't like. And that's because our main aim is to really educate and inform parents and help them to make the right choices for their child's individual needs. I love that.
Speaker 1So you're almost like these little mini inspectors that go into schools and then help us all by giving us that inside knowledge that we wouldn't necessarily be able to access in any other way.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. But we very much write through the lens of a parent. You know, we, all of our writers are parents. So we really get what it means to find the things that are actually important. And that's not about what goes on in the filing cabinet in the back office. You your child experiences every day. So we very much come at it from that perspective.
Speaker 1And with that wealth of knowledge that you've got on that wealth of experience, I mean, 40 years is a pretty phenomenal time to have been to being around for. How do we go about as parents making choices about schools when when we are able to make choices?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think one of the things that parents find hardest, and really, it's the most important thing to do, is to try to put aside all of your experiences, because of course, all of us as parents have been through school. And we bring all of our experiences, good and bad, to the table when it comes to our own children's education. And it's really important to try to put all of that aside, and really think about what is important to your child and their academic capabilities, the things outside of the classroom, and the things that they need to have. You know, some children are more than capable of thriving in a school with 2000 kids in it, and others need a much smaller environment. You know, we don't always have the choice as parents, you know, I acknowledge fully that there are a lot of people listening to this, who won't have a lot of choice that they will go, their child will go to the catchment school. And then it's a different conversation, because then you need to look at what support network you need to put around your child to make sure that they're reaching their potential. Or, for example, if they've got additional learning needs, that they're getting the support that they need, or if they're into a particular sport or activity that they can do that as well. So that's, that's lesson number one, really, is just really try to park all of your preconceptions and all of your experiences that you had, and really zoom in on what your child needs, if you're fortunate enough to have a choice.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I'm guessing even if you're not in a position where you don't have that choice, or you've got a catchment area that allows you to choose between one or two, or you'd rather one school, but you're not sure if you're necessarily going to get that. It is about, I mean, I think you touched on that, Mel, it's about this idea about what do we then wrap around that is helpful for our child?
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. And it's also about knowing how to work with your child's school to make sure that they do get the best out of it. It's, it's, you know, I think, sometimes as a child, it's almost, it almost feels like a natural thing to do to have a fairly combative relationship with your child's school. And, you know, when you are sending your most precious family member off every day, to be looked after by another group of adults, it's very easy to be critical of those people. And when things go wrong, to go bowling in with quite a combative attitude. But I would say that that's another, you know, that's the thing, it is about wrapping those other things around your child's education. And that's the easy bit, because, you know, it's, it's not hard to sign up for an extra football club or get them a tutor if they're struggling with maths. That's the kind of the, that's the easy stuff. The hard, the harder part is knowing how to go into your child's school and talk to the right people to make sure that they are delivering what your child needs. And of course, that's also against the backdrop of state-made schools, in particular, being extremely busy and often quite under-resourced places. So parents need a certain amount of resilience and that they just need to keep their, keep their cool, if you like, to get the, to get the support
Speaker 1around their child that they need. You know, I mean, I know, I can remember those moments when my children were coming to that age of them going to school and making decisions about, we had options, not just in terms of the state we had options of a number of different schools that they could, they could go to. Do you think sometimes as parents, and I say this with love, parents who are listening, that we become slightly obsessive about the pursuit of the right school?
Speaker 2I think it's very easy to, and I think, you know, again, I say this with love to all of your listeners, in certain pockets of the country, I think that that happens more than others. You know, I think in more affluent areas, our higher, and of course, you know, the sort of parents now who are in anything between their late twenties and their mid forties to 50, I guess that kind of window, you know, we've all grown up through life, being able to click our fingers and get what we want very quickly. You know, it's, it's, it's not like it was when, when our parents put us through the system where everything was sort of took much longer and the expectation of consumerism, wasn't really there. And I think a lot of that has transferred to the way people feel about their child's education now. So yeah, I think in certain pockets of the country, there are some very sharp elbowed parents. And again, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because we all want the very best for our kids, don't we? But it is about knowing how to ask for that in the right way. Yeah,
Speaker 1and I'm guessing that that probably, do you find that as well with some schools is that geographically, I mean, I live not very far away from where I actually went to school. And I'm very aware that there is a selective grammar school that I went to, and it's a highly desirable school, has great results. And so there's a lot of movement geographically in order for children to then be within the catchment of that school. And I can see that there is a huge amount of pressure that is being put on children. Yeah, grammar schools bring
Speaker 2with them a whole new raft of competitive problems, really. I'm a huge fan of grammar schools, by the way, and they deliver an excellent education, broadly speaking, across the board. But yeah, we do know that parents, you know, I suppose, looking back, grammar schools were introduced to level up society, you know, society, and to offer opportunities to pupils who would not be otherwise able to get into that elite academic circle. But what we really see now is that pupils generally are very heavily tutored to get into these grammar schools. And unfortunately, you can't really get into them, you can't pass the 11 plus or the or the Kent test or the Bucks transfer test without a year of tutoring in advance, because everyone else is doing it. So unfortunately, grammar schools, you create that that sharp elbowed approach. And I guess, you know, the one thing that I would say to parents is, if you do tutor your child to get into that school, and they scrape in, you need to have a really long, hard conversation with yourself about whether or not they're going to actually thrive there. Because it's, it's a really tough place for a child to be bumping along at the bottom, keeping just about keeping up. And yes, you can still continue to tutor them all the way through. And many parents do. But at the end of the day, that's a, that's a massive drain on your resources, when actually the school is delivering the right education for the right child. And it's a lot for a child, I think, to go, you know, school is a long day. And it's exhausting, you see it in your own children, don't you, when they come home, they've just been wrung out. And then to expect them to get on online, or, you know, sit around the kitchen table with, you know, a tutor, when they're possibly quite young, is a big ask, I would say. I think it's very different ballgame, if you need a bit of a tweak in the GCSE years, or when it when it comes to A-level, you need a little bit of extra support. That's a different thing. But I think parents tutoring their children just to keep up is, is really tough gig for, for everybody involved. And I think sometimes, that's what the whole grammar school thing can bring with it. And of course, you know, a lot of parents actually move house to live near grammar schools, the pressure of that on the family and on the child, I've seen it, I live in a grammar school area. And I've seen children where that pressure from a very, very young age, we're talking sort of nine or 10, has been intense for, you know, maybe a couple of years, you know, if the parents think they need extra tutoring to get in, they're going to a tutor group every Saturday morning for two years. And it's hard. I remember my son actually coming home from school when he was in year six, and saying about one of his classmates, he's so miserable. Mum, he's been tutored for, you know, nearly two years already. He's just sad all the time. So yeah, I think grammar schools are absolutely brilliant for the right child, but they but then they're, they're tough places to be, if you're not up to scratch academically.
Speaker 1Yeah. And as you know, that goes back to what you said right at the beginning, it's this idea about actually setting aside what we want, necessarily, and really thinking about what might be right for our child. And obviously, confidence and resilience and how you view yourself comes from your experience at school and feeling that you're not, you're only just keeping up can often have a really detrimental effect. And whilst the grammar school may well excel in lots of things, it's not necessarily going to help your child feel particularly great about themselves as they're navigating that.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. I think the other thing to say about that is, is that it sounds like a very obvious thing to say, but children really do develop at different rates. And what we see a lot of is that they're not necessarily, you know, they're not necessarily, you know, they're not around where I live is, you know, the child maybe doesn't get into the grammar school aged 11. And they go to the non-selective, big comprehensive, which is quite good. And they do quite well there. And then they get good enough GCSEs to go to the grammar school in the sixth form, and then they can benefit from all of all those offerings. But, you know, perhaps they just weren't academically mature enough, aged 11 to pass that entrance, or maybe they just had a bad day. You know, they just don't pass the test, because it's on one day. And there's nothing else taken into consideration. There's no interview, there's no contextual data taken into account. They don't look at, you know, what you've been doing in the in school in previous years. So it is just all on one day. And I think that's a really important thing for parents to remember that if it doesn't go well, in that situation, all all is definitely not lost. You know, they can have another crack at it when they're 16. Yeah, go to the sixth form.
Speaker 1How can we kind of temper that? Because I think as parents, sometimes we get caught up in the wave of what other parents are doing. And then we could feel really assured at home that this is what we're looking at for Jack. And this is what we're looking at for Sophie. But then at the school gates, we find ourselves getting caught up or even at nursery hearing all of the narrative around the right school and everything else. How can we as parents give ourselves the best opportunity of making the right choices where we have got choice?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest challenges for all parents. And, you know, I remember chatting to a very wise and very, very experienced admissions director, who said to me, her number one piece of advice to parents is don't listen to them, them being the school gates mums. And of course, you know, we've all been in that situation the mum who has the child who is just brilliant, effortlessly good at everything, can be sometimes lacking in empathy and talk about that a little bit too much at the school gates. And it can make other mums with less starry children feel that maybe their child isn't going to make the grade. And, you know, I talk to parents all the time around the beginning of the calendar year, you know, when the selective school results come out and the offers start to be made around the term, and then later on for the grammar schools, you know, we get lots of calls from parents and it's a, it's a consistent message that they will say, and I've heard that this child is going here and they've already heard about that. And, you know, and I don't know what the answer is, to be honest. It's, it's the only thing that you can really do is just not hang around the, you know, don't hang around the school, keep your friends close that, you know, the people that you can trust and just try and drown out all the other noise, even if it's just for a short period of time. And I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's because that stress that you can feel and the anxiety and the hope and ambition that you feel as a parent, as a mum, especially for your child can really damage your, your child's self-worth and make them feel really anxious as well. And none of us want that. It's really hard though. It's, I would say to all the listeners, it's, you know, we've all been there, you know, I've definitely been in that exact situation. And it's very difficult to drown out that noise because it's sort of, it's almost addictive, isn't it? You almost, you almost want to hear it, although, you know, it's going to hurt you, don't you? So I think the, the, the thing is, you know, stay up. The other thing as well, you know, parents that put their children's exam results on social media, if that's, you know, if that's in, if you're, that's in your zone, it's the same, you know, around that time to stay off social media. No one wants to hear that your child got five offers from all the top schools, you know, or, you know, you don't want to hear that, that, that, that, other people have. So stay off social media, just stay away from school, hang around with people that you can trust and that you like, and just try not to listen to anyone else.
Speaker 1But it's hard. Yeah. But that, and that is, it's that recognition, isn't it? That it is difficult. If we, Mel, if I take you back then to parents then that are looking and are in that situation of first school, so that gorgeous little bundle is about, maybe they're even four and they're not, they're only just going to be four when they start school, or maybe they're five and they've been raring to go from the get go. I know that for a lot of parents, the first thing that they'll start looking at will be things like Ofsted reports and trying to make decisions around schools. Do Ofsted reports really give us a flavour of schools? Is that where we should be emphasising our looking or should we be looking at other things?
Speaker 2That is a great question. And it's, it's actually a really hard question to answer because of course, Ofsted does a great job of going into schools. And looking at the nuts and bolts of how they are run. And that stuff that goes on in the back office and in the admin part of it. of a school and in the staff room is really important of course it is because you know things like safeguarding of children is incredibly important and that needs to be at the top of everybody's list so yes it's definitely worth having a look at those Ofsted reports however the thing I'm personally not a huge fan of is the one word summary of you know this school is outstanding because what a school has to do to achieve outstanding status is so far above and beyond anything that will actually affect a five-year-old on a daily basis that it becomes a little bit irrelevant to be honest and you know I know that parents again it comes down to in some areas to that very competitive nature of parents doesn't it they want their child in the outstanding school not in the good school but I I have to tell you that the difference between a good school in in Ofsted language and an outstanding school is absolutely um it's a hair's breath and truthfully the things that make a school outstanding will not make your child want to go there every day and skip through the gates and be happy and get the dinosaurs out or play in the sandpit and also you know the other thing I know that our consultancy director talks a lot about um you know school that she sent her which was down the road and it was actually according to Ofsted required improvement and they were exceptionally happy there had a wonderful time for a few years and have all gone on to be incredibly successful young adults and done very well at school so you know it can happen at the the the Ofsted report is not a necessarily a reflection of whether your child will thrive in that school or not they're definitely worth reading they're quite boring by the way quite hard to get through they're quite hard to get through but they're quite hard to get through there's lots of edgy jargon in them but they're definitely worth having a look at I would just say to parents just keep a very close eye on the safeguarding element of it and you know ultimately there's no there's no substitute for going into a school going in on the open day but also maybe trying to go in on a normal working day and looking at the children and seeing how they interact with their teachers and getting the general vibe of a school that will tell you a lot more than than reading an Ofsted report yeah
Speaker 1and I'm guessing an Ofsted report is a snapshot in that time and that will is it fully encompassed the whole of the school or is it certain elements
Speaker 2of the school yeah they're pretty comprehensive um they do encompass pretty much everything I mean Ofsted inspectors are in the school for several days and they're in every filing cabinet and in every classroom you know they're they're it's a detail it's a very detailed look at at the at the inner workings of a school but what it doesn't necessarily tell you is about the ethos and the culture and how many children are smiling or that kind of thing as moms we all want to we just want our children at that age to go off and have a lovely day don't we and come home happy and it's you know it's all about create you know from the ages of four to well you know for the whole of our end four to eight or nine it's really about instilling an enjoyment of school love of learning enjoyment of books um an ability to take risks and try new things and be confident to do that and that's the kind of stuff that sets children up for a really successful school
Speaker 1career yeah and so should what what are your thoughts then Mel around looking at
Speaker 2SATs results I think SATs are necessary schools do need to be accountable for a child's progress what I don't like to see is schools that overly prepare and drill their children in the SATs exam in readiness for the SATs exams so that they do well because ultimately a SAT a SATs report is a way of measuring that the school is doing its job properly and the children are making progress the child should never be aware of that you know the child doesn't need to know at eight they're not going to be able to do that they don't need to be aware of that but again you do hear of children feeling under immense pressure because their teachers are telling them how important it is it's not it's not important for the child it has absolutely no bearing on their future at all it's important for the school because they have to demonstrate that they're doing their job properly so I get I get quite upset when I hear that children have been put under pressure to revise and study and work hard for their SATs because at that age they shouldn't be able to do that they shouldn't be able to do that they shouldn't be feeling any academic pressure because that's
Speaker 1coming yeah later now Mel you talked about those sort of those early years if we're looking at sort of from four up to sort of eight nine in terms of you know loving learning and books and and resilience and sort of all of these various bits and pieces so with that in mind as a parent how do we then based on all of the feedback that you you must be talking to schools all of the time how can we as parents actually best prepare on that and how can we as parents actually best prepare on that and how can we as parents actually our children to start school at four
Speaker 2five yeah it's about really spending time with them um as you know as a sort of a life mentor in a way just but just normal things like you know I think it's you know reading with a newborn baby is a really great thing to do because what else are you going to talk to them about you you need to instill um language skills in your in your newborn that's how it all starts in in the brain isn't it you know you need to talk to your newborn and your six-month-old and your one-year-old so why not read them a book you know why not get the room on the broom out and just read them a story and straight away what you're doing is programming into their tiny brain that books mean closeness with mum they mean a cuddle they mean soothing words you know often it's rhyme isn't it which is a lovely thing for a child to hear they mean a cuddle they mean soothing words you know often it's rhyme isn't it which is a great illustration and pictures children's books now so wonderful so I would say you know I say to all parents just read with your child voraciously as much as you can even if you're a working full time working parent just do a story at bedtime you know it's really super important so straight away they are they are in the zone when they go into school of understanding books keep them away from screens you know there's a really really disturbing news story recently wasn't there about parents not knowing how to use a book because they were trying to swipe the the pages etc you know that's that comes down to parenting and school books are not to be used they're to be read and enjoyed and you know they they can be a very nice social thing to do with your child so I would say books not screens I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a bit of pepper pig on the tv you know at downtime that's you know that's absolutely fine of course but iphones ipads again you know I have not been whiter than white on this myself my my children would you know had things put in their hands as well but just not that much not all the time so I think there's that I think a four-year-old is more than capable of learning how to put their own coat on and there are some really fun ways of doing you know we're teaching them how to do that I remember our kids were taught to they laid it out on the floor then they sort of stepped into it and flipped it over their heads like a cape and they loved used to love doing it wasn't me that taught them that it was somebody else um but teach them to put their own coat on teach them to get their shoes on because you know all the kids shoes have got velcro at five they can get their own shoes on potty training of course just goes without saying that you know that we we read that that is not done often before they go to school but that really is the parent's job that's not a teacher's that's not a teacher's job and of course things like sharing and um interacting with other people so it's about you know when you take your child to the play group and they're not sharing nicely or playing nicely with other children you need to bring you need to pull them up on it gently um and teach them how to do that and all of those things will make their transition into school so much more pleasurable when they don't have to worry about any of that stuff that you know they're potty trained they know how to say please and thank you they can share a toy they can put their coat on they can pick up a book and they can turn the pages job done you know that's that's what parents should be teaching their children in the first five years of of their life and you know they're all most of them are going to a nursery or daycare as well and i'd be looking for settings that encourage that kind of learning as well school readiness yeah and
Speaker 1that is so interesting isn't it whereas i think i would imagine for a lot of parents their immediate thoughts of what they should be doing are not actually around the the actual readiness for them to be able to then have that learning open to them but instead they might be feeling oh goodness me they ought to know their letters or how to write their name or or all of those sorts of things but actually that's what school is there for
Speaker 2yeah and i think the best schools actually don't force that that kind of thing you know my my my eldest started at a really lovely infant school in london and he was taught to write he couldn't write before he was five no i mean can i hold a pencil he could write his name with his finger in the sand and that was good enough it was fine and i can tell you at nine 19 his writing is fine you know um but you know there there were when we moved out of London to a different school you know the teacher kind of pulled me aside and said you know he can't he can't write yet and he wasn't yet five and it it was fine that he couldn't write yet but I think some schools and some in some areas um just want to push that kind of thing a little bit harder but you know children all come to it in their own time and I think to force anything like that is um ultimately going to be detrimental to their progress.
Speaker 1And it is it's that it's being able to remind yourself isn't it it's so difficult when you're in that moment if yours is the child child that is really struggling with writing if your child is the one that doesn't like reading um if your child is having full-blown tantrums when it comes to doing their writing out their spellings each week is that sometimes it can be so difficult to remember well not even remember but be able to sort of say to yourself they are going to read eventually. They are going to write eventually and all of these skills they will have it's just a question of the fact that they all develop at different ages and stages. From the work that you do at the at the Good Schools Guide Mel can you sort of share how parents can kind of get some of this reassurance around choosing schools in a more informed way of the fit for their child if they've got that option and if they don't have that option for them to be able to kind of review school the school that is in their catchment area yeah
Speaker 2um so I think you know we started off talking about Ofsted and you know that that is is a really good starting point um and we've already touched on going into the school on open visits and trying if you can to get in as on a normal working day as well so those are those are the first things but I think the other really cool thing and it's something that we work really hard on at the Good Schools Guide is talking to current parents because they will be the ones who will unearth the true culture of a school regarding is it the kind of school that lets four-year-olds write their name in the sand with their finger or is it the kind of school that encourages little ones to sit at a desk and form perfect letters I'm not saying either one of those is right or wrong but as a parent you might have a strong pull one way a leaning one way or the other so I think you know that really is the first thing and the other thing that I would say is when you go and visit the school on an open day normally the head teacher will make a some kind of presentation that's really really cool thing for mums and dads to listen to because that person is going to be your child's north star for the next few years so they're the person that leads the um the culture the ethos of the school you know we see teacher head teacher and teacher and teacher and teacher and teacher where they are dripping in kindness and it's genuine and you can see how much they really care and and the the output of that is that suddenly all the teachers are the same no one's shouting because it's just not acceptable in the eyes of their leader and so all the children absorb that behavior as well so you sort of need to be on roughly the same page as the head teacher ideally in terms of ethos, culture, behavior, approach to academic study, things like you know activity, sports, you know how often are the children outside, you know how kind is the ethos, all of that kind of thing so that that's another really important thing to bear in mind.
Speaker 1Oh my goodness me now Mel it's been so helpful speaking to you um just for parents we don't so if you're listening as a parent do not worry we're going to send you the link so that you can go into the school's guide and actually actively use it Mel it would be really helpful could you just give us a bit of a an outline a bit of a summary so that parents know how to best navigate and how to kind of get and what information they're going to be able to find on the website?
Speaker 2Yeah absolutely so um our website has information about every single school in the UK state schools and private schools we have um things like you know their location their address the head teacher um if there are school fees to pay how much those are and you know we have a lot of information about and then we have links to Ofsted reports and independent school inspector reports for every single school in the UK and there's more data led stuff coming as well with our new website which is is launching really soon then for 1300 uh UK schools um we have full reviews where we have visited those schools we spend a day um we interview the head teacher for at least an hour we have lunch there um we meet all the key members of staff we talk to parents we we talk to parents through our own networks by the way not we try not to talk to parents who are provided by the school so we talk to them in strict confidence um we talk to pupils and all of that is encapsulated into one of our really frank and candid reviews and just to go back to what I said at the beginning of um when we started talking you know we are not paid for the schools don't pay to be in the good schools um we invite them into our into our ranks and we write in a very journalistic style that they don't have control over so parents can be really assured that they can read um of the of the 1300 schools that we review we we're giving it our most honest shot and then we also have um a lot of articles um advice articles information articles so anything from explaining the British school system for sometimes parents who have lived overseas don't know how to do it and then we have a lot of articles and then we have a lot of articles and then we have a lot of articles and then we have a really complicated our school system and you know sometimes even if parents have lived here for a number of years if they weren't educated here themselves they need to read that what to do if you want to um appeal against um you know for your school place maybe you haven't got the school you want all manner of um learning needs um articles on all of those there's there's thousands of articles on our website all written by our our in-house experts so there's a lot of that as well
Speaker 1oh mel that is so helpful so we will direct everybody there will be a link in the show notes um so that you can go and access that because it's invaluable the fact that it's got every single UK school and obviously the reviews are unbelievably comprehensive and independent um so they're really helpful for us as parents and we can grab Ofsted's uh direct from the website mel thank you so much that's been so so lovely and I'm sure this will be this is not the last time that we will have you on the show thank you so much
Speaker 2excellent thank you very much
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