How to build your own learning community at work with Andrew Scullion

[MUSIC] Hello dear community builders, Anamaria here with another story of Togetherness at WEC. Today I am joined by Andrew Scolian, a senior Ruby developer and staff developer at Fullscript. Andrew's story highlights an important message when it comes to building internal learning communities, designing a low barrier, straightforward recurring learning session with your peers, has the potential to create ripples across a whole function. Not all communities need to come with a big strategy, a massive resources or complexity. Some communities are small, intimate, real and focused on the things that matters to their members in the moment. Andrew shares what motivates him to hold space for experimentation and learning for himself and his colleagues and explains how anyone in the organization can create an approachable, sustainable, mini community. [MUSIC] Andrew, hello and welcome to Mapping Ties, how are you? I'm good, how are you doing, Anamaria? I'm doing great, I'm excited to chat with you on the surface your mini community story, which I'm very excited about because obviously we have a chat before that, so I know a bit the back story, but I'm excited to bring it to our listeners. Maybe we start there, tell us a bit about who you are, your role, the company, your work and the community, the year building, and then we'll take it from there. Sure. My name is Andrew Scolian. I'm a software developer, it's full script, full script is a company, like wellness and tech company trying to make people's lives better. As a software developer, specifically at Backend Developers, so for the members of the audience, or technical backend developer, as opposed to a front-end developer, is a person responsible for things that happen like a server, so if you're using a web application, there's two sides, there's the side in the browser, so I'll be interactive elements that you see, they go on such data, display things and so on. Then in the background that you don't see, there's servers that are running to receive these requests, respond to them, interact with the database and so on. So yeah, that's essentially my role of the company, focus on the back end, and what other people handle the pretty stuff, and that's our names and interactivity and all that. Fantastic. All right, so tell us a bit about the community you're building, or your little learning group, tell us about that, Andrew. Yeah, so learning guilds been going on for three years now. So it's something that I started back in 2022, and that was actually the second attempt, but essentially what we do is we get together every Tuesday, and learn something new. So the important thing about the learning guilds is, I want it to be to have a low barrier to entry, so you've not highly refined presentations about topics and stuff like that. That is like you come together to learn something new. Sometimes it'll be more on like a teaching style, I'll give you an explanation of how to improve performance and database requests and stuff like that, but all the topics are like something, some cool new technology came up last week, and so we're going to try using it together, and we're going to fail out together and so on, and that's basically what we do. Okay, so I understand that this is a weekly learning gathering. Is it aimed at your colleagues that are doing the same role function? So is it open for colleagues that are working in back end as well? Yeah, so it's open to both. So again, like professionally, I'm a back end developer, but in my free time, I do what we call full-staff development, so the finance, the user interface as well with back end, and so on. And we have topics from both sides, so let's say something came out new last week in the world of JavaScript, we might dig into it with that. So something new that came out and the back end will do that. So it's really open to both. But now because of what I do on a regular basis, I'm more in touch with what's going on on the back end. So most of our topics are back end-clopies, but it's really open to both. Yes. Okay, so how many colleagues are invited? Like, tell us a bit of the back end almost. So we know that it happens every week on a particular day, so it's always Tuesday. Actually, we're recording the summer Tuesday, so today's learning your day. Yeah, that's right. And so it happens, it has this regularity, right? So there's rhythm, a weekly basis, always on a Tuesday, always at the same time. Yeah. How does that work in the back end? Is this like an email list? Are you sending an email out? Is it a recurring calendar invite? And maybe how did you set this up? And how many people is it breaching? How many colleagues are invited to it? I mean, a lot of colleagues are invited to it, you know, like a small subset of them, Ashwa. So, like any community like this, there's a good group of people who show up pretty much every single week, right? Like probably like five, right? To 10 people who show up really regularly, right? Mm-hmm. Another, you know, a fraction of people will show up just for like topics that they're particularly interested in or something like that. The way I organize it is we've got, maybe use some Slack at work, that might be familiar. Yeah. So we've got a Slack channel, like the Learning Guild Slack channel, where I post a few communications there. So things like sometimes I've got two topics, my name is Dave, so for the afternoon, I'm a very last minute planner. Usually the topics I figured out, like on the day of. So I'll go post like, hey, these are my two ideas, right? What would people, for sure, right? And then we choose it there. And then for like invitations and stuff, we do have a really, like a recurring calendar event. And I never wanted to be just like, you know, it's sent in broadly to like the entire engineering department. So I've always like, wait for people to ask to be invited, right? And then I'd add them. So yeah, so like the Slack channel is like the main point of entry. Now people will learn about the Learning Guild, either from like Word of mouth, or maybe they're tech-beat as a drawing company. We'll talk about it. That's a good learning experience. They show up to the channel, right? And then they add them to the event. And then they show up on a go-no. - All right. So we have this, almost like the hub is in the Slack channel. People will join there from different sources. And then once they're in the Slack channel, that's where you keep the comms open and you will kind of publish the topic, or sometimes you're wrote on the topic. And then they get to be invited to that recurring invitation here, probably also setting, sharing the link in Slack. Like, hey guys, we're meeting here. So if you can join us, jump on here. Cool. So I'm very intrigued about this when you mentioned that I'm a last person planning. And I know that is, and you've also mentioned that you wanted this low barrier. It's not highly refined. There's no slides or things like that. So how should we imagine Learning Guild? Let's imagine that we're all of the listeners are like, this is where now we're new colleagues of yours, Andrew. And so this is the first Learning Guild that we're attending. We're joining today on a Tuesday. And we jump on a call. What do we see? What's the experience like explaining to us what's waiting for us, basically, as for a time learning Guild participants? So that was very, from topic to topic. But I'd say there's a couple of different categories. The category of teaching oriented, right? That's relatively rare. But I'll just be explaining how some different technology works with something. And then other times, we'll just dig into a topic that either I'm learning on this spot or a certain technology that we use on regular basis. And we just want to understand better how it works. So yeah, if you join us first time, and let's say I'm digging into the new technology that we haven't used before, the first 20 minutes can be slow, because it might be watching me read documentation as I try to understand some of the tools. And then it'll become more interactive later. I was like, understand, like, OK, this API, or function, or something like that, works roughly like this. Let's try to build something with it. And then I'm struggling to figure out what's the next thing to call. So then some other people in the call might be looking at the documentation at a parallel and say, oh, use this method, or this function or something. That's where it becomes a bit more engaging. Others will be different. So we had one a few weeks ago, where it's just like, share your tools. So everyone, every developer gets set of their favorite tools and how they organize things. So do they use the Chrome browser? Do they use Firefox? If so, like, why? Where are some of those developer tools inside of those? Some people have really elaborate scripts, where every time they change their directory, and the general is kind of like that. Blackwats, wait, text on it, that programmer is used. Every time they lose folders, there's a bunch of things that run automatically. So they kind of like walk us through that. So there's a variety. So yeah. OK, so it's very interesting because you have, it's almost-- I imagine there's almost as if it's a brainstorming. programming, but it's for a learning subject or a topic. But it's at the same time a doing thing. So almost like a demo that you're learning at the same time. So it's a show and tell. We call this a show and tell in kind of a learning format, a show and tell with the brainstorming because everyone's kind of sheep in a click there. Try this to that to this while you're fearing things out live. So I think that's very, it's a very interesting format. And my mind immediately goes, oh, where in my field could we use that? So I'm coming from this background of learning and development, of the facilitation and community building, something, oh, where could, where could that plan out? Like where could we play like that? So you mentioned Andrew and the start that you had. This was almost kind of like the second attempt. So I take you that there was a first attempt and something something happened. Tell us that story. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I can go like even further back to let's say like my previous company. So we had a learning guild. I was started wasn't started by me. I started by some other colleagues and it was mostly focused around learning day. So at that company, like one day a month, you could take full day just to learn something here, right? Tech is the field that moves really quickly, changes really quickly, right? If you don't learn anything for 10 years, I mean, you're right behind and you're going to be less productive than your colleagues or you know, there's going to be things that you're just not aware of in terms of where the industry is going. So you start with this learning day. So once a month, you can take the day, you know, spend it and learning whatever you want. And the learning guilds in bad frame was kind of just sharing what you learned, right? So like, oh, like on my learning day last month, right? This is what I learned, right? And you do kind of like a mini presentation, right? 15 minutes, something like that talking about what you learned and some lessons from that. So that's what it was there. Then, I mean, you know, things change at the company, right? People leaving someone got acquired by another company as things go. And then it became kind of just like me and two other people talking about like whatever, like me, you rent recently and I kind of like peded it. Then I joined Janks full script, like five and a half years ago. And I mean, the first year, I was just too busy to, you know, think of organizing this sort of thing, right? I was like learning like Ruby and Rails, so that was new to me. So like the programming language that we use, I was new to me, so this was a lot to learn. I know the second year, I was like, okay, I want something kind of like the learning guild, right? Or people can get together and learn stuff, right? But I didn't just want to be that person who, you know, brings whatever their previous company had and say, like, well, my previous company did this way. So I want to do this. I didn't want to be that person, right? So I thought it would be hard. I first called it the knowledge sharing meeting, which, you know, doesn't exactly slide off the, of the tongue. Yeah, that's a, um, so we meet. I don't think there's even like a set cadence, right? It was like, if there's a topic we'll meet and it was more about like sharing stuff that we learned or something about like our domain, like every like, like developers on a different team, they know some stuff about their domain, like I was on the whole state of the team at that time. So maybe it shares stuff about wholesale. Another team is on the patient side. Maybe they'd share that, right? So it's kind of like this next and that died out pretty quickly because, um, like, you know, a couple of reasons. One of us in like a regular chain, it was like, is there like a knowledge sharing meeting today depends on whether there's a topic or not, right? And because of just like the, like, the kind of like purpose of it, right? People didn't always have like a topic to come shared because they, you know, hadn't recently finished a project or something like that, right? So I kind of died out and then a year later, I was like, all right, spirit, I'm just going to call it learning guilds. I'm going to go with that. That's just something that I knew kind of works. I'm going to be that guy. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so I just did it. Just like, okay, we're going to get together and we're going to learn about the topic, right? And like a few things that went into like the design is one, um, making it like a reliable thing. That's why it's every Tuesday. It's not every two Tuesdays. It's not like, no, I'm really sure there is day of a month or something like that because then like, uh, people are always wondering like, oh, is it today? Is it not today? Right? And then just like, I leave room for complacency, right? Like, oh, well, at this time, I don't have a topic because like, I used to come up with the topics that didn't do anything last week. And like, so I'm pretty adamant about having it every single week. So, you know, it is Tuesday. Everyone knows that like learning guild is happening today and there's a topic, no matter what. Unless I'm like on vacation, okay? But I want to make it reliable. And then that's also like where, uh, you know, I want to make it approachable. So it's not, you know, some elaborate presentation that you present. Um, I wanted to be about learning. So the thing I say the most is probably it's a learning guild that's not a teaching guild. So people are coming back to learn something. If there's some like some topic that you don't know about, you can still bring that right? We can either suggest as a topic and someone who doesn't know what it can present or like you'll do a deep dive with everyone and we'll kind of like try to figure it out and not to get it. Oh, I like this. Well, you, you call it approachable. I want to say inclusive. We do use this word a lot in general in learning or culture like accessible, inclusive. And I like that distinction when you mention this, it's the learning guild, not the teaching guild because sometimes when we say I'm, I'm, I'm showing up to teach someone something, there's pressure around that. You're the barrier of knowledge or the person with the expertise, you have to prepare, you have to make sure that you deliver that you perform that you're bringing value, etc. And I think that can keep a lot of people at bay, even though they might have a lot of valuable things to say simply because there's that pressure and not all of us look at us with that confidence feeling comfortable to teach other people something. And when you say this is a learning space, right? So this is the learning guild meaning you can bring something you know nothing about and we untangle that together. Now, some may that changes the whole narrative and also the purpose and informs in a way the format. So what happens in the meeting when you're showing up and maybe even the open of certain people to be there just pulled by curiosity to be like, I've heard about this thing. I have no idea what it is, but I'm bringing it to the learning guild and let's untangle this together for as long as we can in an hour, right? So or the allocated time. So Andrew, something really pulls at you towards learning. Like, so where is that coming from? Are you a community builder or are you just a person that loves to learn or are you self-driven, self-directed? Where is this coming from? Because this only the learning you're not goes on for three years. You've tried something else before. You've been involved with peer learning and social learning at your previous company. So that's not something that is new to you. What is this thing? Where is it coming from? Yeah, I think there's like a couple of things I've covered there. One, I mean, I think I'm just like a naturally curious person and kind of like intrinsically motivated and I mean, you know, I started my career in science. This is my second career. So I did like a bachelor's degree in physics. I started going down like the academic group and I mean, the more things that's great, it votes like academia, right? I mean, there are problems with it. But you know, some of the really cool things that say in grad school, the people who are grad students, right? Everyone around you is like, you know, like hyper curious, right? Everyone is like, you know, like intellectually driven, right? They want to learn stuff. In fact, they have to, you know, to survive and we feel. And so that was really interesting. So that's probably, you know, part of it. You know, like I ended up there because of this curious and, you know, sort of doing this thing up for the same reason. So that's one thing. And then the other thing that kind of draws me to do this for a thing is like finding like a way to to give back as well. I consider myself like pretty fortunate where when I was learning to become a professional software developer back, you know, six to eight years ago. This would be for COVID. I went to a physical office every day, right? And I was surrounded by colleagues who knew more than me every day. I could overhear conversations and, you know, either like budding, right? Just sit next to them, learn about what they're talking about, right? Like learn more senior developers, talk about how they come up with like architectural decisions and so on, right? And I think that, you know, like new developers now just don't have that same opportunity, right? So like we're remote company, as primarily like we have an office, but you know, if you don't live in Ottawa, you don't have much access to the office and not a time that people go either. And so yeah, she want to learn that your opportunities are just less, okay? So you can learn either like through code reviews, right? So the way you, you know, merge new codes like upgrades and changes and features to the application, as you put up your codes, changes, in like review environment, right? And other developers can see the changes, comments on it and so on, right? So you can learn like some stuff there, but it's still not the same, right? Like if you're on the team working on patient features, you're not going to hear conversations from the infrastructure team, talk about it's like how to add indexes to that base to scale and so on, okay? So I kind of want you like to give back as well, right? I want some environment where more junior developers can come and just listen to each other people, talk about different topics and learn some of that. So I think those are my two great drivers. But one, as I said, be desired to learn and stay on top of things. Again, this means my second career, I've had to be adaptable. I've had to learn that if you want to survive, all right, if you need to adapt, to change, like run, get the new things that you need to. And again, just trying to give back and give other developers the same opportunities that I had. Yeah, yes. I hear I want to say this mix of, I am naturally curious. Obviously, that's why you kind of pivoted your career, like your learner, you constantly learn, you were drawn to academia and then you kind of self thought, you learn and you moved into something quite totally different. So that's kind of your innate curiosity with this wish to give back and also this desire to create those spaces where different colleagues with different expertise levels or skills levels might come together to learn from one another. And it's interesting how I think the tech teams or devs in general, just a few, I know very little about that, but just a few examples that you gave, even that mentioned that you made a tech moves really quickly, like you're becoming obsolete very fast, if you're not learning. But also this, I think, through the ways of working, what you just mentioned, like you're changing the code and someone can see that, like the feedback you and so on. I think by ways of working and the way the industry or the craft moves is very inclined towards learning. So I also know that there's quite a few people that work in dev or they work in tech and they sometimes struggle with this openness or community or going and asking for support or questions or so. Now let's imagine that there's someone listening and they're like, oh, this learning guild sounds really fun. Well, we don't have that opportunity here. How do I start that? And I know that different companies will work differently based on the culture because sometimes I think I'm curious from your experience, how did that process start? You're like, okay, I'm going to bring something here. So I'm going to try this, has work, doesn't work, etc. So you're kind of made your experiments and landed on the learning guild. How did that work? Did you get what I had to do here? Did you have to have as permission from your manager? Did you had to pitch this project to someone? Did you had to run it by a char by L&D? Do you know how this goes? Sometimes I hear like, okay, I would like to do something, but I don't know how to actually start the thing. How have you started the thing? So yeah, that's where I can't necessarily like help everyone. Luckily, I work with a company that's fairly open to experimentation. That's very kind of like self-driven and so on. So I literally just started doing it and no one stopped me and here I am three years later. Let's be sure yet. That's it. So tell us about the first thing. I'm going to do this thing. What did you do next? Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's been years now, so I can't exactly remember, right? But I think it was as simple as like, you know, I just went on Slack and said like, hey, do people want to get together this afternoon to learn about this topic? And did it again the next week and did it again the next week? And yeah, I just kind of like leaned into ask for forgiveness as I'm permission. I did it. And again, no one ever stopped me and it just kind of kept going. Yeah. But yeah, I think like it sticks a lot to you, you know, like we call it that full script where yeah, this sort of thing is encouraged. Like people aren't going to get in your way. There's like a tiny bit of pushback at the beginning. So we thought like a couple kind of similar events. So we've got one called a dev talk. So developer talk. So this is where and like the timing and stuff like that has changed a bit over the year. But back in the day, every two weeks, developers, you know, like all the developers, well more than that, the whole engineering team of the companies, it's got to get together all where people get talks. So whatever and technical topics could be like what they're building the, you know, so some new tech or whatever. And this is definitely more like presentation oriented as opposed to kind of like a bit more teaching than learning. Yeah. And at that time, which isn't the case anymore, you know, they're kind of like struggling to get enough like people to actually propose topics and and present and stuff like that. So when I first suggested this or started doing this, it was like a tiny bit of pushback of people saying like, oh, if people go to that and said dev talk, it's only even harder to find like people to talk. Yes. And so that reason I kind of get like made it my mission that like whenever dev talks had a, and it had a gap, I did a presentation every single time for like the next year essentially. Right. Just to say like, okay, you got no excuse to stop me. So I think. But yeah, it was mostly I just like like all chill of like openness to experimentation that allowed it to happen. I just did it. Right. And again, first attempt like didn't work so well. Like there wasn't much interest and so on. And that's why I also wait a second time. I was really like the main driver in still on today. We're like, you know, 90% or so of the the topics are one that I'm humming up this and you know, I'm kind of beating some. And you know, it brings value to it with me. So yeah, I'm willing to do doing that. And you're on this glide that people like attend and interact and stuff. So. Yes. I heard several things here that I guess were super useful for someone that has never done this potentially never experienced this in their in their organization. I love this idea of starting small when you said, I just put something in this slack channel. I asked, okay, it's happening today. I'm going to talk about this thing again. You kind of and then I did it again and then I did again and then made it a great slack channel and so on. So this almost like I'm just gonna I'm not gonna overthink this. I'm not gonna make a super big plan around this or like have a strategy or just like take a lot of time to shape something. I'm just gonna put it out there running by a few people doing one so twice. If I like it, see if they like it and we'll take it from there. So I really like this just start small don't overthink it. Yeah. Put it in a short time forward and just do it. And I also love one thing from your story is this experimenting and pivoting. I don't get this courage. It's the first thing doesn't the first thing you're trying doesn't get traction. Look at that and see what about this is adding friction right and for you, you went on and you eliminated and you changed some of the things that were adding friction. Yeah. It's like, okay, the fact that it's irregular, I'm gonna make it regular. The fact that people have to propose topic and no one is, I'm gonna take the lead and do that. The fact that it takes a lot of time to put to get a slide. I'm gonna have it no slides and we're gonna do this other thing. So I'd really like how you take that experimental approach where you change and pivot it and just kind of, okay, we're gonna try it in a different format. And also how we matched the dev talks. So it's almost as if you created something to add to that learning ecosystem and you kind of had this informal learning by doing just roll up our C share your screen. Let's talk to the thing and untangle this versus the dev talks where for some time puts sites together and preparing something and it's more like the typical webinar teaching style. I love how your idea kind of complemented what there was already existing inside the company. And you close this by saying it and obviously three years, it's a lot of time to keep something alive on a weekly basis. So clearly it adds something to you and it adds something to other people because if you would sit there alone for a month, like four sessions in a row, you probably will be like, okay, I'm done. I'm not, I'm not gonna do this anymore. So how do you know it's working? Like it's been our life for three years. What do you think it's adding to other people? And then also tell us what is it contributing to you? Like what are you taking out of this? Because you mentioned like this adds something to me, like that's add value to me. What is that thing? That kind of drives you to keep showing up and keep running this thing? I mean it's a value to me is it kind of because I want to continue to learn like new tech, I mean, someone, right? But sometimes it's difficult to find motivation to do that. This is that motivation, right? It's like well, or they're not even always motivation, but like, you know, there's a place there to go, right? So if anytime, right, something comes off, I'm like, oh, I'd like to know more about this library, right? I don't have to think like, oh, when I'm gonna tilt this to my schedule, right? It's like, no, it's really simple. It's like, oh, okay, next to the write it down. And that's it. Yes. So that's kind of like the value to me. I mean, it's also like building the community and like building rapport developers. I think rapport is really important. It sometimes like a bit undervalued, but I think I learned this stuff for my mom when she was at the side of the importance of building rapport where like if you never talk to any of your colleagues when you need help with something, right? You're going to be shy. It's going to be like a more difficult conversation, whereas if you talk to all your colleagues, right? Like 10 times in the last month, then it's a lot easier to go to them. So, you know, that's like it. I can only think that I get from it, right? So I make conversations and sometimes it gives me an idea of like some thing I can do to to improve your developer experience and so on. And then what other developers get under fifth? I mean, I have to go ask them. I guess I don't like ask super often. But I think it's a couple of things, right? One, particularly if you're more junior, as a developer, then you'll learn some technical things, improve your technical ability and so on. So that's one thing. Another, there's a couple of people who joined like the Learning Build really regularly, who were part of like a company that's first required. So I think for them, I mean, I don't want to seek for them, but like I imagine that they can also see that as like a way to like build relationships, like kind of like across the two. I mean, we'll want to have to be now, but like those two, right? So again, learning the barrier of entry to get to know, you know, some people from the other team. And you know, like once in a while, there's kind of like a jam that comes out of this, right? Where like last year, I want to see if there's a way to like run like our application in a kind of sandbox mode, where you start the application and then all the changes that you make in the app get rolled back when you turn the server off so that you can try it again. And we actually built that and then like shipped it and now like other developers need that. So like once in a while, it's a barrier, but once in a while, we get like something like really tangible that gets back into like compaming the application. But most of the time, it's just, you know, learning, right? Like there's a developer, you see like an intern at the time, like back last year, who went through with a couple of different methods of the library that we use a lot, our assumptions, those are your other methods. And then we're like the following week, I ended up using it, right? And it's not because I wouldn't be able to find it on my own, just like, you know, it's just like a refresher. So yeah, so those are some of the dashes. - Yes. I really like that we have things that are much more, I don't know if, and intangible is the right word, but not seen, like building relationships, connect connection that report with other people, getting time with them like FaceTime and learning more about them so that you have a smoother collaboration whenever you need to work on something or work on a project. So I think that's really fun. But also these very practical things, and obviously that cannot come out of every single weekly session that you're doing, but the fact that, you know, you come together and you have, you discover processing improvements or shortcuts or tools or different things that add to your work and can then be disseminated to the whole team or you can improve something. Even if that happens two, three times a year, that's already a win of something that came out of this shared curiosity that the dev team has when they're coming together for the learning deal. So I think that's really cool already. And then the fact that you're almost, I don't wanna say use it, but I use it as a, your excuse to keep on learning. I think that was really cool as well. And this accountability to that, that's where I learn. And so, and then I open the door for other folks to learn with me, that's pretty nice. - All right, and I think one last question that I'm curious here, what is it like, what would you say is one or two skills that have proven useful when you were developing this or even now as you're driving it and you're involved with the learning guild? What are some skills that you're using, that you're flexing, that you were able to develop as a result of this project? - I'd say, like presentation skills. I mean, I used to be like a pretty, like, a nervous public speaker and now I'm speaking public like every single Tuesday. So that's hell. And also, I just think of the nature of the meeting, right? Where there's a lot of, you have to come up with things like on the slide, right? - Mm, improvisation. - Improvising. - Yeah. So because there's a lot of improvising, you kind of get better at that. 'Cause it's normal now for me to be in front of an audience and not know what the next step is, right? So if I'm getting some technical demonstration of that, something's not working. I'm used to be able to figure out how to fix it in front of people. So I gave you a talk 'cause we also do like meetups like every couple of months, there's like a Ruby meetup at Chioskitt. And there's one where I was getting a demo, right? And something didn't work out. And it just didn't fit me. It was just like, oh, I mean, it's like a Tuesday. Like I'm used to stuff not working in front of an audience. So I fixed it. So like that's one thing I've really gotten at it. - Yeah, I know that answers your question. - Yeah. - That's great because I'm thinking, those are hard skills to acquire. Like to speak in public, to not be faced, to improvise, to think fast on your feet when something happens. Those are skills that you gain by doing, by exposing yourself to those situations. So the fact that you kind of had this control, safe environment every week to expose yourself to that. And then suddenly when it happens in real life, where there are maybe some stakes or whatever to give you that confidence or that piece of mind that you've got this, I think that is a big deal. - Yeah. - To be honest. So I'm very happy that you brought this to particular skills because you only get them by doing the thing. Like immersing yourself and trying over time. - Yeah, I hope it's like the same for for other developments. Like again, back when I joined, we were probably like 40 or 50 people in our management department. Now we're 150. If you let's say wanna do the Dev Talk and you're still too nervous to talk and try to 150 people, right? This is one avenue where it's not practiced, right? You can give a presentation in front of 10 people, right? - Yes. - So yeah. - Yeah. You can use the guild as a sandbox, as a test ground to kind of get your confidence up. 'Cause oftentimes it's about that confidence that only comes after seeing yourself doing the thing a few times in order to say, I think I got this. I think I can do this. Yeah. Beautiful. This was really great. I love the fact that we got to impact something that is, I think when you and me talked, there was this, we always showcase this kind of big communities, these big initiatives that kind of need a lot of strategizing and a lot of approval signs from lots of people and they're very just complex. And I absolutely love the simplicity of the project that you've brought to life and continue to maintain a life for three years. And also to see that the benefits that you're creating and the ripple of impact are the same as with a big initiative. So I really wanted to spotlight this example, Andrew, because it's so, we need more examples of different ways in which communities can show up within organizations. And if there's someone listening there and thinking, I really wanna do this and I'm thinking so much about bringing my colleagues together to learn, but I need a list of things that you kind of imagine or anticipate that you would need. Just know that you don't. All you need is that's like message that, you know, like raise your hand, gather the crew and then capitalize on that and see where it's no balls. So this was fantastic. Thank you for joining me and for sharing your experience. And super keen to hear if we talk in a few years where the learning deal is going and how the project will kind of grow or shape shift from now onward. So thank you so much, Andrew. This was great. - Yeah, thank you for giving the opportunity to start, right there. (upbeat music)