How to build a skincare brand that blends science with soul - Annee de Mamiel

This show is sponsored by Primadine, a clean, natural and science-based spermadine supplement that's been a long time staple in my own longevity stack. Because study suggests that through autophagy, spermadine increases health span and upregulates a range of health markers, from memory and cognitive function to heart health hormone balance fertility and even hair growth. Plus, you can be assured that all ingredients undergo rigorous third-party testing. By Primadine now at Oxford Health Spam.com and use the discount code 'Doctor Sophie' that's DR Sophie for 20% off. This show is sponsored by Microbes and award-winning liquid probiotic that's now as staple for me because Microbes with a Z on the end is different. For one thing, they source directly from the soil on their wheelchair farm, meaning more diversity with at least 15 strains of good bacteria in every single shot. It's brewed so it can survive in the stomach and a remarkable 92% of customers say it makes a difference. Plus, they offer micro-friendly cleaning, gardening and even microbes for dogs. By now at microbes.co.uk and use the discount code 'Sophie 20 for 20% off'. Hi, I'm Sophie and this is A12 with Dr Sophie Schottet, a space where, together with my producer fee, I talk to give friends and trusted experts on how they A12, whether it's their latest supplement stack, what's on their bathroom shelf or a new biohacking device that really seems to work. Because for me, A12 is all about looking and feeling like the best possible version of ourselves, both inside as well as out. Remember, you can also find even more ideas and expert tips on my social channels @drsophie-shottet. I'd love you to come and join me over there too. So this is my show, 'Welcome along'. As always, thank you so much for listening. And this week we're in conversation with Annie Demarmiel. Annie, welcome to the show. I have to say though that we do feel like we've already met you because two of our previous guests, the makeup artist Caroline Barnes and the beauty journalist Francesca Aguim and White, have both said such amazing things about you. Caroline puts us onto your altitude oil, which I've also been trying and loving. She said she recommends that to all of her clients. And Francesca told us an incredible anecdote about a single acupuncture session she had with you that brought on her period the very next day after five years of not menstruating. So incredible. So we have lots to talk about. We know you have a global weight list of over eight months and you're one of the world's most sought after skin and wellness experts. And this is before we get into your work as a Chinese medicine practitioner, Crania, sacral therapist, a Roma therapist. And of course, you now have the most beautiful product range too, which again we're definitely going to get into. But firstly, when you're doing body work on a client, we've read that you listen to a client's body through the tongue, the pulse, the Crania sacral fluid amongst other things. Can you tell us a little bit more about this and what happens during a typical session with you? Because as I understand it, you might deploy all kinds of therapies from Crania sacral work to acupuncture and tuning forms. Oh hi, Sophie. And thank you so much for having me. I'm absolutely delighted to be a part of this and honored to share a little bit more about the brand and the work that I do. It's really interesting. I mean, like physiology just blows my mind and what the body does and what it holds and how it regulates itself and the nervous system. But I think it's sort of really important in a treatment session to listen to the body and listen to what it's saying and how it's moving and where the stresses and tensions are being held. But through the tongue and the pulse, you can really do that because it's almost like they don't lie or there's no filters on them. When, you know, we always begin the session with like loads of questions and understanding people's thought processes and their minds and where they are. But sometimes, you know, we have different filters on us and the way that we think we should behave or something that we, the way that we should respond to things. Whereas the tongue and the pulse naturally give me that information through feeling without any filters, so to speak. Diving back, Annie, into your incredible back story, what may surprise some people is that you briefly worked in the pharmaceutical industry. I'm guessing this was very different to the internship you did at a Chinese hospital when training in Chinese medicine. But what did you learn throughout both of these experiences? And what do you have used now on pharmaceuticals? I have had a multitude of lives. I feel like a cat sometimes with nine lives. All the various avenues that I've gone down. Do you know, I think it's really interesting in that there's a place for everything in the world and taking the best of all bits that I do is what something I really try to engage in. In the farmer world, I think it was my first real job out of university when I was thinking, "Oh, what do I want to do? Do I want to keep going?" It taught me a lot. It really taught me the beauty and understanding of research and data and that really hard science behind things and how important that was to begin to formulate something from. I think that was really fascinating. Then you had what would seem diametrically opposed the Chinese medicine view of things and spending that time in the hospital. But the wonderful integration bits that I learnt there was about how powerful the mind was in affecting the body and treating those as one thing. Whereas in the Western world, we tend to separate things and treat them as individual bits. After thousands of years, the Chinese are really amazing at treating the body as a whole thing. And you see where in some cases it is a case of Western medicine is better and other times Chinese medicine is better. One of the amazing patients that always comes to mind when I talk about this is the resource of strokes there in Chinese medicine we call wind. And the initial treatment protocol for them was that they would receive acupuncture and herbs in a twice a day every day for a certain amount of time before going on to Western medicine. And the recovery rate was so high and so strong. But at the end of the day, both had its place and they needed both. And so I think it's about that. The other lovely thing about Chinese medicine is that it never forgets anything. It's like a toolbox and you just keep building these things whereas in the Western world we sometimes latch onto the latest and greatest thing and forget about what we previously knew which I think is quite sad. That's such a beautiful answer and I do think we ignore a lot of ancient wisdom and a lot about the whole body perspective in Western medicine. And I say that as a trained Western medicine doctor. So yeah, completely agree. Like you, I'm really interested in the impact that stress has on our skin and the metabolic pathways linked into this. We know there's four major metabolic pathways from cortisol to glycation and each one has a primary effect as well as secondary and tertiary effects. Can you talk us through each of these and how they show up on the skin? And also more generally, do talk to us about your thoughts on modern day living and the impacts of stress that I think everyone nowadays is feeling. Yeah, do you know it's I don't know whether we're just more able to recognise it and be aware of it. But you know, there's so many factors into it isn't it in terms of like stress and it happens and sometimes we think it's always bad but there were good stresses and there are bad stresses and you know, we almost need stress sometimes just to get things done. But I think it's how we respond to stress that really sort of determine whether we overcome it or whether it actually overwhelms us. And as you'd know, it's sort of so feats. You know, the physiological process that the body goes whenever we feel stress or what it goes through is, you know, it's something like about 1400 physiological reactions that actually occur. And in the modern day world where it seems like it's just little bit by little bit by little bit of stress that just keeps building in us. It's like death from a thousand cuts almost in that we don't sort of notice the little ones until it sort of gets to a point and then it's sort of all encompassing. But you know, we haven't evolved enough to recognise the difference between an emotional stress that is something, you know, from forgetting to pack one of the kids lunches at school to a life-threatening stress that we experienced as cave people running from the tigers and the lines and that sort of thing. And so it's that same process and you know, the problem is that it just keeps building in the system. And so understanding that and recognising that is sort of, I think, the first thing. But what I've sort of found in the clinic and through research is that we know of now there's almost like four major metabolic pathways which, you know, we see changes in the skin from. And it's an individual response stress in that we sort of like have our own path. And so, you know, for somebody it could be just about reaching for sugar all the time and so our stress response tends to be more of a glycation. type response where the sugar molecule attaches to the protein and breaks down. And what we see in the skin from that is that we can tissue strength and that loss of elasticity. And you see that constant sort of dryness and dehydration and uneven skin texture. But I guess the other thing that you're sort of looking at is that each of these things just keep knocking onto the other cell, it becomes this vicious circle. And the other three pathways of free radicals, which we know so much about, it's something that most people would know what free radicals do to the body. And we see that the skin with them, the things like just fine lines and wrinkles and the skin barriers lost and then you sort of have that loss of moisture. The underlying factor I think in all of the pathways is that there's dryness and probably all of them and dehydration. But it's that thing of it doesn't matter how much moisture you put on. You never get dewy, beautiful glowing skin. And it's like, so we have to go backwards and to really understand what is creating the dehydration and the dryness in the skin. And it's that constant master pathway of cortisol where it just keeps once you're in that sort of you're almost in a wrap run where the wheel keeps spinning and that is sort of once where there it's really difficult to break I think. And what we actually see here is a whole bunch of stuff of you know that redness and the underlying inflammation and which can move to rosacea and we have the thinning of the skin. We see that signs of premature aging and you have like that rapid collagen breakdown which is you wake up one morning and all of a sudden you look like you feel like you're 106 or something. Everything feels like it's just dropped and you've got no sense of gravity in your skin. And so you have all of these things that then sort of lead to the inflammation and the inflammatory pathway. It leads to the oxidation and then to glycation. And so it sort of becomes like I said this constant wheel of modern day stress and it, I think one of the biggest factors is that we're always on. We never have this chance to be able to flick the switch and disconnect from things and that's really vital in the way that we look and the way that we feel. The Times run an article that describes you as one of the UK's most in demand facialists. We wondered how do your facial stiffer from others. So for example we understand that you call yourself an integrated facialist could you explain what that means? I think that's lovely thing to remember. I've forgotten all about that article. But it's taking the best of all of the parts that I've studied I think and being able to really hone that into what that patient needs right now in this moment. I've been so lucky in that I've studied Chinese medicine and acupuncture. I studied anatomy and physiology and did pre-med as well as cranial sacral and clinical chemotherapy and breath work as well. And all of those things I can pick and choose from as to what I feel the patient needs at that moment. They all tell me a story and sort of like work it like in Chinese medicine your face is a road map of energy. It tells the story about what's going on certain parts relate of your face relate to parts for your body. So you need your cheek areas about your lungs and things like that. And it can allow me to work on the skin through what I've found through all of those medalities. And so, yeah, you might get acupuncture or you might get cranial sacral, you'll always get a facial and work on the skin and just those little bits as well to make it whole and to really go back to the root cause and understanding what it is, what's creating the things that are out of balance in your body and bringing them back to balance. Being with your various accolades, you have an international client list and so many a list that's been talking about your work. Your product range was also recently included in Vogue's Best in Beauty Awards. Congratulations. And I understand there was also a bit of serendipity at play when Gwyneth Paltrow and the team at Goop got in touch to ask if they could stock the range. We'd love to hear more about that story and also generally your journey into business. The Goop story. We were actually, my husband and I were on a holiday. We were coming down the West Coast, so from San Francisco down to Los Angeles, must have been Friday afternoon. We got an email and out inbox saying we'd love to talk to you about the brand and stocking the oils and we were like, oh my gosh, firstly after lots of screens and excitements and hand-clefing. We emailed them back and said we're going to be in LA on Monday. We could meet. And so we did and it was so lovely, it was actually the day that Goop were leaving Gwyneth's pool house and moving to their office. So it sort of feels like quite a pinnacle in everything that we did. That's been the story of the business in that it's really been built by word of mouth. It started as an accident and I say this with a big smile on my face because I began blending bespoke wheels and teas for my patients based on their needs and to bring them back to balance and centre. But then as I sort of was making the cleansing balm and things like that, people literally wanted to take it home with them and so the last person on that day would get my half-empty pot and I sort of would come home and make some more. But my husband sort of finally just said, well that's not a very economical way to grow business. Let's put some labels on it and put them on the website. And so we did that and we were so blessed because I think three weeks later Netaporte called in all the products as Kathleen Badmari had just been for treatment and loved it. And so that was been the process really of how the business has grown and for me it's been about what's important is what goes in the bottle and making sure that it's as vital and like leaving no stone unturned in the formulation where the formulation starts at that efficacy in a high performance way. So they have to really work on the skin and then there's the additional part of the soul as well. But the business has really been that it's been so lucky and our retailers have come to us from Word of Mouth because they've heard things about the products and saying with our customers and my clients so it's been an interesting journey. Yeah and a lot of serendipity involved as Sophie said and as you confirm which is exactly what we were thinking. So should we talk about the product range because it's so beautiful. We're both massive fans. What are the hero products? Can you talk us through the range and also potentially what's coming down the pipeline? So the range is it took us a long time to figure out who we were and you know the process and everything was still in place but I guess where we are we are a place where science meets soul because it's about those high performance ingredients and then these the additional elements that just bring in the completeness and you know that sort of really begins with one of the first products and the hero products which is the cleansing balm. So in terms of heroes I'd probably say you know cleansing balm the seasonal oils, altitude oil and our gravity fix which is sort of one of my favorites but you know the seasonal oils were very much about what you need now. It is about new in Chinese medicine life is a series of seasons and cycles and at each point in the year it's that connection with mother nature that makes us feel solid and grounded and purposeful. You know if we're sort of way out of sync when you know we know that with our biological rhythms when they're all out of sync we're not sort of feeling like he's grounded sort of humans and so working through the seasons and it made this is the start just makes sense to me that you know looking at what you need at that sort of time of year and the cycle of nature so you know we know it's about deep rest and replenishment and really allowing the seed to gather potential within us and in the spring we emerge and begin to sprout it's about vitality and the unstoppable life and in a summer we're at full flourish and bloom and then in the autumn we're letting go and releasing to start the cycle again and so building a formula and an oil that sort of allowed us emotionally to go through those and be ready for those as well as everything that the skin needs at that time of year was sort of really important and something that was really unique but I just felt like people were really beginning to miss where you know we didn't have time to switch on we choose our food and our clothes for specific times of the year but we're never tuning in to those finer moments of our skin and our body and that's what the seasonal oils were all about it's just finding that rhythm for you so you could just engage with that and from the way that we use the oils in terms of you know inhaling them and taking a deep breath which is about reducing that cortisol and engaging the parasympathetic nervous system to slow everything down so you know they're just not lovely words on the box, they really come into that purpose to begin to slow us down. So we're ready for sleep and ready to begin to switch off the cleansing balm, which is just this beautiful rich balmy battery texture that's just anxious and smells divine. You do smell by the way. And it's a funny thing of patience who are so busy and they just go and you say, "You know, I want you to stop and smell it and do a face massage with it for a few minutes." And they're like, "Well, I can only do a few minutes." And that's all the time I've got. And I'm like, "Well, we'll see, and we'll try and build it out to 10 or so minutes." And they're like, "Oh, I don't know if I can do that." And then literally a weak lady or getting a text going, "Oh my God, I'm doing your massage. It's amazing. It's just switching me off." And so there are some really lovely stories that I've sort of created that I hear back, which is I'm just really blessed by. And then your altitude order that you talked about, which when we lived in New York, we were going backwards and forwards so much. And you know, when you sit down on a plane and somebody three seats over sneezes, and you're thinking, "Oh my God, I'm going to get off this plane and I'm going to start sneezing and I'm going to have a head cold." And so it was to protect the immune system and to really clear the space around you. So you could get off the plane and you still feel like you could hit the ground running because it's antibacterial and antiviral and most of us sort of get off a plane and go into a hotel room and there's all of those things to contend with. So it's really about protecting you and using it on the sub. And we used to get all of these stories in saying the people were using it on the subway and their hands and on bites or steams or anything like that, which was wow, this was really amazing. And I actually remember once being on a flight and I smoked the altitude oil. - Which first? - Wow. - That's the moment. - Oh no, you know when you just go, "Oh my goodness." And so that was really lovely. - Incredible. - So yeah, so it's been a journey and you know, I always create something as to, it takes me years to formulate something because I'm seeing what my patients need and what is needed. as opposed to just creating another something. And I think that's so important because there's so many things that play in so many choices and you don't want to give additional stress by just throwing things out there. So you know, really purposeful and meaningful things that I feel there's a real need for. - I love that Annie and I am actually quite looking forward to my next long haul flight, which I think is going to be in a few weeks because I have the altitude oil to try on board. Amazing. He's a top tip. It sounds like was something that your granny probably used to do, but I could have unattached your hanky and tuck it under my bra so I can smell it the whole time or under my watch. - I love that. - So I want them to tip for you. Amazing brilliant. We'd also love to hear about your own personal daily self-care practices. What does an average morning look like for you in terms of what you do, what you take, any non-negotiables from skincare to stress management? - That's a really interesting question because I tend to be a not-witted person and I mean life is changing so much isn't it? And that you run flights and you're in different places. And so I think for me, my morning thing is when I hop up, I, and doesn't matter where I am, I'll always try and have like a warm water and some lemon. And then I'll walk outside with Willow, our dog who is literally the only person in our office who has a title. She's our head of happiness. And so yeah, so we go out from a little walk in the garden together. And then I'll come back in, I'll make my coffee. And for me, that is such a process of enjoying the smell and I have a few nuts with it just so I don't spike my cortisol. And then we'll go and sit together Willow and I taking those moments and I quite often just read a passage or a poem and at the minute I'm reading one of Jung Pablo's books which is just verses of, sort of, poignant sort of poems and that I can just read and reflect on and set my intention for the day. And that's sort of really the thing that I make sure I do all the time. And I exercise, I walk, I do breath work and yoga and all sorts of things at different times. But for me, that sort of like setting up my day and I'm an early riser. So I really sort of love that special time of day of watching the world come alive. That's beautiful. And I love that whole getting outdoors and connection with, they're not pets, they're our companions. I think it's, I love the head of happiness, beautiful. She truly is. I have one of those as well. I have a foreport head of paviness as well and can't be some dog therapy. I guess kind of tacking onto what Sophie said. What would we see in your bathroom cabinet in terms of are you religiously devout to your skincare range which I absolutely would understand if you are but is there anything else that you do use, let's say, whether for skin, or for hair, or body, or nails, like what products do you love? We're just being nose-to- nose. Excellent. Do you know what? There's so many things out there that are so amazing and I'm really blessed because quite often I'm sent things to try as well. But I love like in terms of hair, there's a great brand from LA called Rose and she's an amazing woman and I also love Adam Reed, some of Adam Reed's like his hair serum. It's got a brand called Archive and his journey through mental health has just been extraordinary. Somebody I really admire. SPF is always a massive thing. So ultraviolet SPF, I really love Gucci Westman. It does an incredible range of makeup. Body-wise, I've got these amazing, like they are just out of this world, body brushes called lymphatic brushes, where they're developed by this incredible lady in New York, Cecilie Braddon and literally I use those, I try to daily but on my face and body and rather than doing your own lymphatic drainage, they're like 40 fingers doing the lymphatic drainage for you. They're just amazing. You've previously mentioned taking adaptogens for adrenal support. We'd also love to know what your current supplementation routine is. So do you take anything on a regular basis? Vitamins, a protein powder, functional mushrooms, probiotics, anything that you feel supports your health? And supplements and things like that are so interesting isn't it? Because I really know when my body needs it. And so I sort of dip in and out of things and you know I would always like especially of the win to take a vitamin D because it's just something that we just tend to lack. Probiotics, SIM proof, I just or seed in the US because I just think they the data behind them and I've seen real effects on the skin especially with those two. Tumoric and cussing in is something that I tend to take as well because I have an inflammatory sort of constitution. And so that's something that I would sort of tend to take. And then most other things you know I dip in and out of I you know will have matcha that's got some mushroom supplements and spokeus supplements will no tropics in them and adaptogens. There's like a lovely brand phytonic does that I use as well that Oh yeah. I just one of their recently for an award actually. Yeah they're brilliant aren't they? Really lovely beautiful product. And the story behind the brand is really lovely as well so you know I have there's something that sort of always tends to be in the cupboard as well but there's certain brands that I just really love because either the story behind them or their quality and I wild nutrition and art are I tend to use a lot of where I might sort of go if I'm going through a phase where I'm traveling a lot and I might boost up my magnesium or salineum if I feeling that my blood glucose is a bit all over the place. So I sort of dip in and out of that and I was actually looking this morning at what I was sort of currently taking and still vitamin D and amegas the cacurstem and and my phytonectus I think I'm using focus at the moment. So I think it's something that we can dip in and out of. And do you have any specific sleep rituals including any supplements like magnesium things like that? So sleep oh my gosh I how important is that and I think it's funny because it's all how obvious is it as well but it's that funny thing so for me sleep is I have trouble staying asleep and so I selfishly developed anca for that which is like a balm that I have so that's always by my bed and I apply that at night and when I wake up but I'm a big big bath person as well so I'm no sort of night when I'm sort of feeling a little bit restless I'll always have like a salt bath beforehand. I have a journal beside my bed that if I wake up and I need to put something in it or to get something out of my head then I'll just dump it. So when I'm traveling actually for me I listen to Opo which is an amazing meditation app that some friends of ours sort of developed and it's free and but it's really it goes through seasonal things and sleep stuff and I just gravitate towards that it's a really beautiful sort of sleep side. - Can we also touch on brain health? What are you doing or taking if anything to keep your brain healthy? - It's brain health is, I think that's gonna become like over the next few years, biohacking and all of those type of things, just gonna become so much more part of our conversation. I think that it's really interesting because the data with us reading and actually reading a study by Harvard a couple of weeks ago when that supplementation and the brain isn't there yet, which is sort of really interesting because I've seen some stuff on smells and memory, things like rosemary, really amazing for memory, especially in old people's homes. And so I've always got a rosemary plant around the place and I had rosemary in my hot water of an afternoon to help with my brain health. You know, amigas are something that I just think is something that you do. I think keeping the brain healthy through diet is really important and what we eat and feed into our system is, keeps our brain healthy and then, you know, the other thing that I do is, use a special blend of oil and sort of the back of my neck to help with the glimphatic system and that glimphatic drainage of the brain that is a burgeoning area in terms of study and how that affects our focus and all sorts of things. So a few bits and bobs there. - Yeah, gosh, that's all fascinating, especially what you do with the behind the neck. That's really interesting. We would love to know as well who you see for any complimentary or alternative therapies if you see anyone as well. - My little black-heated, little black-heated. - Yes, exactly. - Exactly. - I am blessed because I have so many amazing people and most of them I've literally been with for about 20 years. And so they have helped me through many of these. And so I see Dominic Chiton, who is the most amazing, extraordinary chiropractor who puts up with a lot from me. (laughs) And I absolutely adore. And Perry James, who is a massage therapist, but not really massage. And he just gets me back together. He's literally the sticky taping glue behind, holding me together. And then my other sort of like really amazing person is a lovely girl I studied with Kate Fremantle, who does herbs and acupuncture. And she's just magic. I don't know where I'd be without her. - Oh, I love this list. Thank you. Thank you so much. Taking it back to the business and you mentioned in a previous interview that you've benefited from the wisdom of various mentors. Can you talk to us about your mentors and more generally your experience of being in business for example do you have any tangible tips you can pass on? - I mean having somebody there in a mental is essential to our emotional and mental health. Just somebody that you can just throw things at and that sort of, you can look at it from a different perspective. Through my life I've been so lucky in that even from like when I was like one of my many lives ago and lovely teachers from when I was trading on the floor. But now the people I sort of have around me and you're Nikki Kenneh, who ran space and K and she's been just somebody who I can always bounce ideas off. And I think it's just that this is essential to helping you just disengage a little bit and like I said get another perspective. You know I've studied with so many amazing people and their knowledge has been sort of passed on in a way and I think that is just about the freedom of flow and the knowledge is out there and sharing it. And so I'm always happy to help businesses and people because you know sharing that information just helps them to stop the mistakes that we did and I think starting your own business and doing something like this or anything it's hard. There's no such thing as an overnight success. It takes just a lot of hard work and I really believe it's about listening to your gut and believing in your vision and yourself and what it is that you want to create. I think one of the lessons that I didn't probably learn the first time but maybe took me the second time to learn it is about not giving your power away. I really feel that you know it's so easy to believe that people know more than you do because it's not something you know a lot of but you are the holder of your life and your vision and just don't let that go out. That's I think probably one of my biggest sort of bits of advice to people. That is absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much, Ania. That really resonates. Thank you. Back to stress and finding balance. Where's your happy place and where in the UK can you recommend for true rest and relaxation whether this is a hotel or a spa or a town or a village or I don't know, wherever where do you go to feel release end? For me it's the sea. Wherever I can get anywhere by the sea or in the water it's really important and it just takes me back to home and you know it's instant relaxation isn't it? You smell that salt air and you just go ah but I guess on a daily basis my happy place is when I walk willow and being in nature and being in that and just watching like her play and run and jump and chase the ball. It's I don't know you just nothing else matters. You find a freedom in that which is invigorating I think and it's just such a special time and you've got the air and the sun and everything is fresh and yeah that's definitely my happy place. And apart from friends and family who inspires you? That's really good question for me. It's people who have overcome adversity and are really courageous in the way that they do things. It's probably you know people just getting on and doing things and reaching in for fully their full potential and I think about it and I connect so much with athletes and that sort of level of improvements and the best example I can think of is when you roar in McElroy two weeks ago winning the Masters after 11 years of trying to seek out the best and improving an increment after increment and all of that pressure but he never gave up. He just kept trying and getting better and he really sought to be the best that he could be and to me that is just beyond anything. It's achieving those things and not giving up to any extent. It tends to be that sort of behaviors that I really get inspired by. I was lucky enough sort of 25 years ago to do an around the world job race which had in it it was the logo for it was ordinary people doing extraordinary things and on our crew we had people from in their 60s to in the like 19 each doing it for different reasons and you know so inspiring that people had never been sailing before or had done lots of sailing but were on this trip to get and we all had different motivations and perspectives to do it. Wow. On a more spiritual side and this is back to our conversation with Francesca, a German white. She described you as a deeply powerful intuitive. What if anything do you believe in but can't prove? So tricky. Yeah. I've no idea on why this happens or what it's about but we had a friend of ours who was once again doing an around the world job race but he was on his own and he was deep in the sub-nation and there was a big wave the boat fell over and he tumbled through this whole thing and the boat popped up and he survived and it was all like hey but I woke up that morning actually while it was happening and I knew it was all happening and I was describing it to Chris and we had no way of knowing that this was all happening and I'm like oh my god I'm gonna have something's happened to Nick something's happened to Nick is the boat's been knocked over in the ocean and I'm not quite sure and we rang his office that next morning as soon as it opened and I'm like is Nick okay what's wrong and they're like what do you mean and I described this whole thing at exactly the same time that it happened and it's like how do you prove that? There was no communication to the boat in the sub-nation but I described it exactly how it all happened like what is that? Annie that's how it's happening I don't even know if I want to understand what that is but that's the bit that I guess sometimes that's what comes to me in a treatment as well where I can understand things and know what the body's going through or I don't know and like I said I'm not quite sure if I want to know but it's I can't prove it Amazing you can keep up with what Annie's up to on Instagram at Demamiel Skin and head to Demamiel.com for more on Annie and the product range Thank you so much for joining us Annie it's been such a joy to have you Thank you so much for having me it's been an absolute delight And that ends this week's podcast If you want to find out more about me and my work or maybe book a consultation head to DrSafeshotta.com and you can find me on socials at drsafeshotta And again thank you so much for listening (upbeat music)