How to Build a £1m Contract Book in Any Market with James Gamble

(upbeat music) - James, welcome to the podcast. - Thank you for having me. - There's a couple of things that we wanna talk about today. We've got sort of two main categories really. - Yeah, we've got things that we should think about as a contract recruiter when weighing up, is it worth to leave or not? 'Cause I feel like when you're a contract recruiter, there's more to walk away from, right? Particularly if you've worked your absolute socks off to build a successful contract book. So we're gonna talk a bit about that. We also gonna talk about this MBO journey that you went through. Unfortunately, well, I guess not unfortunate 'cause it's not meant you've launched your own business, I guess, but we'll talk about that. Two failed MBO attempts. We're gonna talk about what do we learn there? And then we're gonna get into something that I know that you're super passionate about, which is ultimately, James's sort of first principles, pillars around building what you think it takes to build a successful contract book in today's market. - Okay. - To give everyone a bit of the James Highlight reel, let me know if I get any of this wrong. Start your recruitment career in S3. 'Cause there are finally five years at a peak you got your weekly GP up to 28K, left when it was on 25K weekly GP, then joined the rethink group to launch and lead a brand called Infinite Talent. At its peak you got that weekly GP and that business up to 35K, left that business six or seven months ago to launch your own business called NXOTalent. There's now two of you in that business. And within six or seven months you've got the weekly GP up to 77K. And your world, we'll talk a bit about this, but your world is, I've got in here, warehouse management systems, automation, supply chain systems. - It well said. - Exactly that, exactly that mate. - Exactly that. - I do think this is an interesting conversation. The way to maybe frame it would be, 'cause you've done this, maybe the second time it wasn't the original plan, but twice you've had to walk away from a contract book. And I feel like there will be contract recrees out there that maybe have worked really hard to build their contract book and maybe you're starting to lose the love for what they do. There may be, starting to feel like, actually can I see my future in this business, but then they look at the money they're earning and they're going, nah, I can't leave that. What would be some of the things that you think people should really seriously consider when it comes to, is it worth leaving that on the table, is it worth leaving that? What sort of comes to mind for you? I don't know, it's very personal, but I just thought it might be an interesting place to start. - No, I think there's a good question. So I think there is why I left my contract book when I was at Progressive S3, was 'cause I thought, look, I've earned really good money. They've given me the opportunity on a walk away with my head held high, et cetera, but I just didn't believe in what I was doing there long term. Now, I then went and set up Infectal and which I thought I would be able to own eventually, which I was going to come to pass. I think the biggest thing to be aware of is when you're employed, you never own that contract book, right? I think it's a real misconception that people think, you know, I've got up to 10k, 20k, earning loads and loads of money and they think, "Joh, what, if I leave, I'm going to lose all that money, in reality, you don't own the clients, you don't own the revenue." So I think that's a big thing to be cautious of. All the time, if you're going to leave a company, why would you leave it to go into another employed role? I don't see what the value in doing that because you don't own it and you haven't started again. So I think that's the rationale for me, really. That's really interesting. You say, actually remember that you actually don't own the contract but that's a really interesting way to think about actually isn't it? Yeah, well, I think the biggest thing is, is that I speak to a lot of recruiters that have done very well from obviously recruitment on contracts and they have this ego of, okay, I've smashed it now, I'm only 10, 15, 20 grand a month, whatever. And they have this delusion that those clients are theirs and they're not, they're whoever the recruitment companies whoever owns it. So I think that's the big one for me. It is very individual rights, but maybe what's gone up for me is one, you have to decide, but taking that note in terms of remembering actually you don't own this contract book firstly. What might be worth taking the lead? What might be worth leaving that 10, 15k guaranteed, quite quite guaranteed money on the table each month could be an opportunity to build a contract book for yourself as an entrepreneur maybe. Or maybe in your case, join a business and start it from the ground up and scratch. The only other thing where maybe it could be worthwhile is you might be the top biller in your environment and your contract book is 10k weekly GP and you might be the big dog. But you then realize that there's people out there doing 25k 30k so actually being around other high performers maybe a different market potentially. I think that's maybe the only other thing coming up for me where it's like might be worthwhile. - Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think so when I was at S3 'cause I was there in a lead recruitment agency and the entry point to getting to the top 20 was 10 grand a week. That was the minimum bar to get into it. Being strong while there's sort of people that are serious serious, but you know, a million pound billers they'd churn them out. Yeah, when I went to rethink the expectation like a top biller there was maybe five to 10k. So that mindset shift is massive to be able to understand that what your perception of being big billeries is very different to some of the big boys. It's really understanding it. 10k weekly GP isn't a massive amount but some people would think, oh, you know, I've absolutely smashed it. I also think as well if you look at it like with progressive, when I did a million pounds in a year I probably owned 120 grand. So where's the other eight, 20 going? Do you know what I mean? But you don't see that. You just see the commission check coming through. I think the other reason why I look at moving as well is for base salary. That's a real, real big one for me. He's always going for that base salary as well. Because you know, when I was at S3 I think there was on 30 grand. What, by the time you left? Yeah, I started at 11, I got to 13. But because you get blinded by the commission you don't see it. I mean, the other pitfall is that when people come a big biller in vertical numbers they'll then look at management. Yeah, well, yeah. Nor was just down to them built down to the progression paths that the only Malcolm progresses are. Yeah. And what you'll find is that just to make you bitter. (laughs) For a lot of people, yeah. I think a lot of people agree. Okay. Nice. I think, yeah, that just might be helpful for some people to listen to this. If you listen to this, you'll probably ambitious, want to succeed, want to maximize your potential. And I do think compared to you being a permanent recruiter like there is more that your potential walking away from. I know I really like that perspective. It's not your contract, but still it's quite, quite guaranteed revenue. You know what your earnings could be over the next three, six months, whereas a permanent recruiter, a good one, they're going to be consistently performing but it's different. So, yeah. I think there's so many good things to think about there. Where should we start with this MBO piece then? I guess what's worth adding the frame to it is that part of why you went on this journey was, you thought you were known to wonder. Yeah. But in terms of the particulars, from day one, you joined as an employee. Yes. How was it like framed? Was it that, "Generals, you'll start here. If this happens, you'll get this." Or, I don't know, like, how was it framed? In absolute truth, I think this is a lesson to be learned for people when they go and set up a brand. It's always really just very naive around it. So, I just assumed that, you know, we'll get to that point of it being able to be acquired upon myself. And I thought, again, naively, it's going to be straightforward. So, it was my naivety that caused me the issue that I had there really to be honest because if I knew what I knew now, I would have said I want it as a separate limited company straight away and I want some standing equity to begin with and I want clear matrix and terms if I'm going to get certain milestones, this is where I can trigger purchase of more equity. But, yeah, that's totally on me. I didn't do that. I'm glad you share that because people can be drawn in the Soyuzi by that carrot. Like, we're just talking about Laura before from our solutions, right? And I was asking her, why have some really good friends in the industry who have done really well? And if you do really well, oftentimes, depending on the business you're in, the carrot that will end up in front of you is, Jones, we're going to give you shares in this business and we want to get to a financial event when we get an exit. But just because they say that doesn't actually mean that matches up with their actions, they could actually happen, right? So I really appreciate you sharing that and there'll be a lot of people out there that, I don't know, it may not be fully educated and that's why these conversations are important. So basically then it sounds like from day one, it was using employee basically. So there's no conversation or there's nothing around like if you do this, then that'll happen. It was just on the promise. It was just a promise. Yeah, it was a promise. It is really important to be able to say that it's not even thing because I got basically got acquired by Rethink Group because they wanted the niche that I specialised in to be able to read a compliment there, clients that they've got and with that should come a number. Because if you're going over and establishing a brand from scratch, all the effort, we created the brand myself and Dan Haywood, who's since now gone to a different organisation, but we did all of that, got all the clients and all the clients thought it was mine. Right, yeah, I thought it was. Yeah, so we spoke before. Yeah, yeah, so perception wise, everyone thought, so when I set up an XA, I got people calling me saying, I thought it was yours anyway, but it was just a brand and I was just an employee. So someone listens to this right now, we've what you know. If me and you met up in a pub and I'm talking about this opportunity I got, I'm considering joining the business where I'm going to help them launch a brand within their business. It's going to be around this niche that I've just been built a really good track record over the last three to five years. What would you say would be the sort of non-negotiable is that I should try and negotiate then. So equity and actual equity. So class A shares straight away. And with very clear metrics of when you get to certain milestones, you will be triggered opportunity to be able to acquire further. More equity. Yes. I would never do what I did again. Now, I've just got my own business now, so it's not going to take into effect. But I think you can get blinded by ego when you mention MBOs. It's a nice little thing, isn't it? You speak with the board. It's all exciting. You see the numbers. You sort of shit yourself a little bit in terms of finance and debt and all that sort of stuff. But the reality is is that I would never look at MBO again. When did it happen the first time then? Because I've got a head to failed MBO attempts. Let's talk a bit about, I guess, the first one. When did that start to become like a potential option? During COVID, we did really, really well. We had a really large climate clip of logistics that we did all the NHS PPE contract for. So that sort of proved to me that we had a business that was solid. Because obviously, everybody else was really, really struggling predominantly. It was then our thoughts on self. I'm hurtling towards 40. I need to push these conversations now. I really need to push it. - 'Cause up until that point, had there been any conversations and there'd been, unless you brought up or not? - Unless I brought up, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think in reality, I wasn't taking that seriously in terms of, you know, is he actually going to do it? And actually would he leave? Having built it again? Would he actually go off and do his own thing? So, 223, there wasn't really an MBO. That was a, I think they were just trying to court me slightly and sort of came on a bit of a leash. The last one of last year, whenever a 12 month period. So that was a real serious one. That was going out talking financials and there was a figure that they gave me. - Who, who's that? - The board. And I spoke to a lot of people from a finance perspective and they were just like, look, if you're as good as what you say you are, don't do it. Don't party for something that you've built. So just go and do it again. Might take you back two, three years to get that point of the leash or own that business without debt. So again, over that 12 month period, I said, look, if I can't get to a number, where we're all comfortable, I'm going to go and set up doing exactly the same thing. So he's all very crystal clear. - Yeah, nice. Let's just break this down a bit 'cause I think there'll be some bits in here that'll be helpful for people. So one, just to make it really easy for people to understand, the end goal that you was aiming for was that you was going to buy out the people that basically owned Infinite Talent basically. And you was aiming to get what majority shareholding was just the whole thing. Okay, that was the end goal. You had no equity in it, right? So what I'm always interested to understand was, let's start here. What were some of the early light lessons when you started having these financial conversations and getting the business value stuff like that, 'cause I feel like that can be really scary to a lot of people. - Yeah. - I feel really out of their depth. I'm recruiting, I'm doing deals, not made to go in front of HSBC and say, this is why you should lend me the money. Do you know what was some of the early things that you had to learn quite quickly? - I think a true cash flow, peer now, 'cause as a salesperson, you do your deal, goes and assists and makes some markets paid along the way. You know, salespeople have gotten no interest in how stuff is paid until it's your own. And then you're very, very much aware of it. So I think the thing for me was, it made me realize how naive I am in terms of the day-to-day running sort of a business. So, you know, going to big about debt and then seeing a number of what I was quoted, really, really scary. I think you also get dictated to with people that, you know, CFOs and CEOs, all that sort of stuff around, you know, this is the number. And, you know, I didn't feel strong enough to go actually. I think it should be this amount. So, on the first one, very, very naive, I was just led by what I was told. Going out to the market, getting real quality external advice is absolutely essential. So that's what I did. I got some people that I trusted that gave me real, real quality advice so I could make an informed decision in terms of what I was doing. Because, infinite for me was to put everything into it. It would literally started as my son was born quite literally. So, you know, the journey that I went on and the people that we brought in and seen it as a brand, and to see that go was pretty tough. Pretty tough, yeah. Where do things even like start? So, like, did you go to banks initially? Like, you know, you said you got external expertise. What from people that had been through an embryo or is it actual financial advice? Yeah. So, people that gone through embryos and then also finance brokers. So, people that been through embryos thought they referred me through to other people. So, I didn't go to an HSBC and go, "Can I have a loan?" or whatever. It was more going through the brokers and understanding the metrics behind it. It just was not something I wanted to do. It was just untenable, the amount of money that would cost me each month. But, yeah, still a wrench, not ideal. And then last, we bits on this then, from what you learned in that process, it might look very different for each embryo, they will don't know. But the sort of structure and aim that might have happened would have been that you would have got to lend the money from a bank or from maybe, I don't know, did you speak to any of your private equity funds? Maybe I'm not sure, was it mainly banks? It was mainly banks. Okay, so they were the loan, James the money. You would have then paid the people that owned the business. And then there's going to be then what you owe and how long you got to pay it back. Correct. That would have been how you destructured it. Yeah, yeah. But I think you said to me, a lot of how it structured it was like, it was weighted against James, not infinite talent. That was absolutely yes. So it would have been put my house on as a customer as well, right? So which my wife was very understanding about, which is unbelievable to be honest. Which was like, if you really want to do it, like I back really want to do it back here. Yeah, but it was doing personal guarantees with the house. I would have had to have kept the offices that infinite were in as well. And obviously we've had kept all the staff. So, you know, it would have been significant levels of financial expenditure, which I wasn't in for. Because I was so fundamentally building that business, so it's not like I was an MD and, you know, away from the coal face, I was still so much on the sales front. I just thought, I need to do it break away and get it done. But I think it's not for everybody this side. It's really, really tough. The learning curve that you have to go on, I think some people, and they think successful recruiter, they think it's really easy over the side. It isn't unless you've got real, real discipline and real, real market knowledge. It's not as easy as what people think. No, I really appreciate it being super honest around it. And I know you've used that word naive, but I think for me, the lesson there for people listening is if you're in a position where you'll maybe speaking with the other directors and the business that you're in, where you're talking about, yeah, maybe we could actually achieve an MBA who found the spoken about it or maybe not that. It might be that you and your other directors are being sold that there is going to be a potential financial event, whatever it may be, really leaning into if there's stuff that you're not confident in or understand or know on like the quote-unquote business stuff, not the recruitment side, the sales side, like the cash flow. Like, okay, when we send out an invoice, how often does it normally take? There's only a bunch of things. But I think for me, from hearing you talk, and this is really common, the lesson there is like leaning into that stuff. Yeah. Because if you think about it, from their perspective to on the board perspective, why would they bring it up? Why they weren't obviously-- Well, they're not motivated to go like, James, why don't we have a session in this court and talk about our profit margins and how we, like whatever, it's not in their interest, right? So the people aren't just going to hand this stuff to you, and that is where then obviously founders above you ultimately have a bit of lack of power, really. So if you listen to this, and you're like, you know what, I actually don't understand exactly how we go from sending an invoice to getting paid, or whatever, the legals lean into it, or be curious about it. I've already won't learn about this. We'll get back to the episode in just a moment, but today, I'm excited to talk to you about one of our long-term partners, Sourcewell. Unlike last year, when hopeful improvement to find the outlook, 2025 brings a renewed sense of confidence. 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I did talk to my good idiot, because in all times, I tend to say real stupid things around invoicing and all that sort of credit control. I really think absolutely hated me. Because I was literally just sending invoicing and I'm worried about it or get paid at some juncture. I think you really need to put a mirror up to yourself and go, where am I strong, where am I weak? How do I get myself from being weak to strong? That's what we need to improve in those areas. Don't be arrogant. And if it ends up being a lot of those things that you said non-sale stuff, don't expect people to come to you with like, a head jam, like, yeah, like, I'm going to talk to about credit control. Like, no, you have to go out there and learn about it. Yeah, you have to, and you have to drop your ego, and you have to go and say, I don't know what I'm going on about in this world. Like, can you help me? But with me, he's been six months. I'm still frustrated. They don't understand everything, as well as what I'm needing. I'd say, like, you was building that business. Okay, you wasn't an expert in those areas, and you're still learning right when you was implanted. But a lot of people view that as your business. I'm sure you viewed it as your business. But like, I think non-sprangler journey is like learning. Like, it's just learning. Always learning. I mean, always learning. So like, it never stops. Yeah. But I don't know if you are going to be an expert ever, but you can definitely improve. Yeah. I think you touched by, you know, saying the infinite was mine. How I alluded to it, I had about the contractor book, thinking it's yours. The reality of it, as you said, is I was an employee under the guise that I thought I was known. But I wasn't, it's mental, co-founder. But I was progressive. I think, yeah, my title was global head of dumbest delivery. But it was just me. And mental, like, perception is the only thing. Inception is key, right? So the biggest one for me, if I'm talking about MBOs, is about get the figure that you feel comfortable with, get external advice, and be absolutely on point with the directors or the owners on timelines, and holding them accountable to those timelines. Because ultimately, as you alluded to earlier, and you said, why would they want to bring up the conversation around the business when they're making those money? Yeah, exactly. So that, I think, yeah, to build on what you just said, you've got to be hungry for these conversations. You've got to, like, I appreciate you being on issues not even the style, whatever. But if you listen to this and you're like, you know what, actually, there's probably some conversations I need to have I have no idea. really hard to have that the courage to ask. Particularly if you're employed, the founder, they're not incentivised to bring it up because they're like, "James, happy is making money. We don't really need to speak to him about how we could own this business one day." What would they? Well, I think the other thing as well is it's how integral are you to that desk that you've built or the brand that you're creating? If you go, how detrimental is it? If you go, if it's highly detrimental, if you were to go, you've got much more of a bargaining tool, but some recruiters might have done 10, 15, 20 grand with one client that's a key account of that business. That's a different, you're not as important then. I think that's something to really focus on as well. Yeah, for sure. But safe to say going through that MBA experience, not for the faint higher. No, that's harder than that. It's really psychologically challenging because you haven't to do all the sales still, haven't to try to do that as well as a big, big distraction. It's also when you come to realisation that you're not going to do it, it's highly emotional as well. Because you are walking away from a whole thing that you've built and staff and all that sort of stuff. So really, really emotional point for me and not for the faint higher. I experienced it a bit. I raised a small amount of money for my business and it is another job isn't that. It takes up a lot of mental capacity, energy, but then like you said, you might have had a really difficult conversation in the evening about that and then you got a shot tomorrow morning with the end point. It's my ass the hard thing, I think. Yeah, and I think because you feel responsible for the team and all that sort of stuff, if you know the impact it has, if that MBO doesn't go through on the team and their livelihoods and some of the people who've been with me for 10 years, so it's big, big things. Also, in my opinion, why would you do an MBO? If you're all the specialist in that field, why would you pay top money for something that you can go and build in two years, 18 months? Because you could sell a lot less and earn more. Yeah, I haven't had loads of conversations on successful ambios. I've had a few. In your instance, I'd probably say, yeah, you're probably right, but a lot of the MBOs that when I spoke to people, it's like a leadership team. It's not just one person. I feel like you're going to be really passionate about that because it's all on you. It's what you were taking all the risk. And also, if you think about it, the reason why it didn't happen was because you probably felt the number was unfair. Yeah. Whereas a lot of the MBOs that I have spoken to and it's gone through, it's normally been a leadership layer, not just one person, although sometimes it has been. And there's been a number that they've got to that they think fair. Yeah. If you're spitting it down like four ways. And also, yeah. And most people are spoken to, it wasn't like, okay, let's do it. And I'm also going to have to put my livelihood on the line of my house. Yeah. I get why you'd say that. But there was a big risk for you. And I understand why you'd feel like that risk was unfair considering how much time energy, blood, sweat tears that you'd already put into it at that point. Yeah. I think as well, it's what you wise. Like for me, I want to get to a point where I can get acquired. But everything that I do is for, you know, for the poor and arch, you know, my wife and six year old say, I took away looking after everybody else and focused on them. That was my motivation for doing it. And still very much what we like six, seven months now into your own entrepreneur journey, where you own the business. Yeah. You're not an employee. Yeah. Is it something that you still wrestle with today or like, I mean, it's still within the first year, still probably going to be there's going to be some pain in there or no, or you like, you quite a piece of it now. Doing your first deal is just the biggest thing in the world because it's proof, you know, imposter syndrome and all that sort of stuff. It took me three months to my first deal, but I actually did two on the same day, bizarrely. They all come in that name. Nothing's changed for me from what I've done over the last 10 years, even being honest. It's just now the learning and the mechanism about getting the money in. So it doesn't feel any different. Other than the fact I said, it's about learning about, you know, how do you invest the money when people and all that sort of stuff. I think he's really, really interesting because I don't want to just stay as two people. You know, I want to get to five, six, seven people, that sort of level. Well, look at it now is all the money I'm generating is to be reinvested in the business. So I'm going to take minimal amounts of money out of the business for the next two years. So should we talk a bit about your philosophies and about what you've been doing really well, you think, or how people listen to this can have some of the success that you've had. So when we thought about the sort of key building blocks, almost the first one that we spoke about was this market knowledge piece. Why don't we just start because we put a deep understanding of your market. I know this everyone would have heard this right. So interested in here, you're taking on what that actually means. I think you said to me when we prepared for this, like you stumbled across this niche almost. Yeah. It's a very famous story. Really? How I fell across. Tell us a bit about it. Yeah. So I'll have turned this over. How long you've been doing this niche? 12 years. Okay. Nice. Yeah. So I do have recruitments got made with Dundan from the bank, can I do mortgages? I'm going to go for an attention here now because it's a war story. So I thought, look, where can I make some money recruitment seems like a viable option. Didn't tell anybody I was in recruitment because I was quite barrisht about it. So I thought it was like car sales. And you know, S3, I was on dinner very generic market rounds, like project managers, BAs, you had to send a mail shot out to the database at like 12 o'clock. And my one was, are you currently recruiting? Was a subject title? And then it said, I recruit for BAs, PMs. If you're interested, let me know. Like an awful email. A client came back as a vice president of Seavalogistics and said, we don't recruit those, but we do recruit red prairie. Red prairie is what the WMS, the warehouse management system was called. It goes, if you've got anybody, I was like, yeah, obviously, obviously, well, it's giggling red prairie, right? And I thought, I like that. That's a niche. I placed two contractors within in the Netherlands. And then because it was such a niche, I thought, well, surely every warehouse has a system. So then all I need to do is build that out. And that's how it came about. What for that? But most importantly, so it's when you stumble across a niche, it's how do you build out that niche? A lot of people might have just gone out of just filled to random roles. It's like, how do you actually properly build that out? Because I was the first recruiter to do that market. Yeah. That's such a cool story. I love that. But I think the key there is that you was willing to go, yeah, I can get you people. Well, it was funny as well. Because actually rang the client about three, four years late. And I was like, David, as well say, thanks ever so much for what you've done. He was like, we're going on the boat. I said, well, yeah, you helped me on the journey. He was like, yeah, you just found me a couple of people in the Netherlands. James, so big thing. Like didn't care at all. So yeah, I mean, I think it is just building out that niche and understanding that it's a niche and how you can value is massively important. So let's just break that down a bit. So we've got here a market non of deep understanding of the tech here. Because obviously that's involved in like the deep understanding of what the people that you work with actually do what the companies need, staying informed. And we also put like leveraging events and stuff. But because we hear this so much. So when you said like building out the niche, what does it actually look like? So if I came to you and I was in your team. And we stumped, I don't know, maybe we identified a certain niche. It was a certain, I don't know, another warehouse program that certain warehouses would use if they're producing certain types of products. If I came to you and go, I found this niche and I've mapped it out. I know what you expect to see from me. So you know you said that you have to like, prop us, build it out. Yeah. I want to understand from your perspective what that actually means. So like if we both identified somewhere. Yeah. And I went away. And I'll be out. Yeah. What do you expect to see? So my thing would be what's the top 15, 20 contractors in that space and how many clients use that technology? And you should know every single client that uses that technology. First of all, and then you should do market research in terms of being to contractors and saying, okay, what's the market like in this area? How long are contracts? How many upgrades are there? No implementation, etc. to understand the size of it. Because like you can have a niche as one person that does it. There's no point in that niche. It's about how is it scalable? And I think you need to really, truly speak to the people that are on the ground that understand that world and are passionate about it. And also not bullshit them as well. Whenever we went into that market, I was like, I've got no idea what I'm going on about. Can you teach me? Can you tell me about it? So I think market knowledge is one that is just so thrown around as well. Everyone says there are market specialists, etc. But you just have to understand the technology is really well and understand the clients that are going to be using that technology. And that's really, quite straightforward to find out. It's not complex. Whenever I have these conversations, it does always start with the contractors and candidates. Just the interest here, you take like, if I'm listening to this and I'm fairly early on, why would a contractor give me their time? Because you being honest. Okay. So it's amazing what honesty does. So what does it have with the contractor now? Like we're looking going into a new version of the rest that we've never really gone into. Ransapi, WM never really touched on it historically. And what we're doing is we're going to meet them and say, look, we specialize in these other areas around where I am. I'm not sure if it's the contractors. Yeah. And consultancies as well. So we specialize in these areas of WMS. We're dominant in these areas. We're not in this area. Can you just tell me about it? Like 10 with the idiot's guide. All right. You can tell that I'm very much specialist in these other areas. I want to get into this area. We'll be able to probably place you as well because we applied the same methodology as what we've done. Just talk to me. And people love talking about themselves. So why wouldn't they? It's if you call them up and try and say, yes, I've done SAP E2M for the last 10 years recruitment and they go, do you know what E2M sounds for? And you go, no, all credibility's gone. If you're honest and authentic with people, why wouldn't they want to give you a time? Is part of it also, do you think you'd get more traction, more conversations if also part of the approaches that you specialize in X as well? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I think, well, for an example, like John, who's recently joined me, no understanding around WMS at all, but he's building out like the sort of tier two solutions SAP E2M being one of them. And he's doing exactly what I've said. He's saying, look, James, you probably heard, you may have not heard of, but he's been in this market for 12 years, works for all these different clients, UK, Europe. We're looking expanding into this area as well now, kind of get some of your time. Just being really honest or authentic. Well, it's like they hit right on that. 95%. Really? Yeah. If not 100. For? Do you think it's important to try and like also give something to them, though, besides being honest, being authentic? Or is that not actually that important? Because I feel like if you end up actually doing really well in this space, it's really beneficial for them, obviously. It's really beneficial for them. We'll get back to the episode in just a second, but today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Rayz, who are hands down the best way to fund and manage your contract book. I've had come on the podcast over the years, singing their praises, raised supported hundreds of UK and US agencies large and small in managing their runners. From funding placements, managing time sheets and expenses, ensuring your invoices, collecting payments from your clients and getting contractors paid on time every time. They're passionate about helping you to keep more of your hard earned margin, making sure that you can focus on what's important, winning more business and growing revenue with a piece of mind that all of the admin is taken care of by Raz. 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As we've grown, you know, and mature as a business, we've moved on to their new direct model, meaning we're able to tap into incredibly cheap lending and provide working capital to help us to continue to expand. They've been a great partner to us and I can't recommend them highly enough and long made that partnership continue. As you can see, Raz is a trusted invoice finance provider, powering some of the fastest grown recruitment agencies in the market. You can book a demo with Raz and mention the recruitment of mental support costs to enjoy 50% off your first month. You can click the link in the show notes, or you can go directly to www.raisetech.io/rmp. That's www.raisetech.io/rmp to get access to that offer and check out Raz. So if you go on it and say, "I've got a job," you know, it recruits you when they get. How many people on LinkedIn that have been ghosted by recruits for the job's been fake or whatever? Like, if you can say, "We're building out this." If I can understand how good you are in that market, when these opportunities come up, which they will, we'll take you to market to try and get you some work as well, we'll build long-term relationships. Why wouldn't you want to do. The most important thing, though, is around the follow-up after the initial call. So people just don't follow up with people. I just don't understand it. Like, "Hey, why wouldn't you want to meet somebody to go through it face-to-face with them? Take the time and the effort." And then why wouldn't you follow up and go, "I've heard this project is kicking off. We're going to try and get you in here. Or have you got any connections that could help us get in there?" Or whatever it is. So when you say, "Follow up," you don't mean directly after that call, you just mean in general in terms of. Yeah, just like a month each. I only speak to you once and then we haven't speak for a long time. Yeah, otherwise you're renting somebody for information with no form of benefit for them at all. So I think, yeah, that regular concept, say, "Look, we've heard this project is going to be kicking off. We're going to try and get you in the mix or whatever it would be." It's just vitally important. But that's why it's good what I'm doing over with the NXA at the moment because it really isn't difficult to really quiet standing in the recruitment market because the standard is so low in the market. You're right, you're right. It's so low. It is just doing those things consistently. Consisting, yeah. Everything discipline. Yeah. As Densert Washington said. Being really honest here. I've heard this a lot more in the contract space and it's around what you're talking about here. I think what happens a lot is this fake job thing. Yeah. That happens a lot than that. Mental. So why do people do that? So do you want the inner workings and the trends? Yeah, let's just keep it real. Don't just do much just to get on the point. No, let's just keep it real. Because I've come across that a lot because like so much of building a market is like through the contractor information. Yeah. So I've just come across that so much more. So the rationale behind it is that somebody will post a fake job to get to speak to candidates about it and then get places where they're interviewing to try and get that work on in the main. To generate candidate speech. Okay. That's the main goal. Which is why recruiters got such a bad reputation. Is it not part of it also? I haven't really got anything to speak to James about. So I'd rather like actors if I have. So me and James have more of a reason to speak. Because I've got a potential. But how? I've got a potential to speak to them about. Yeah, but like how stupid is that? No, but that's what is that also a potential part of it? Or is the main reason like I want to get leads on to get in on to see where they're going to be? They're going to get leads where they've been before, where they go back to like that sort of stuff. But you know, for me, it's not all your credibility, doesn't it? Yeah, I've seen some horror stories when someone said they've got a job at the HL. There's an example as the job they were recruiting for. And the guys gone, well, I'm there currently. And they're not recruiting. Yeah, that's a main. So I think that's one of the barbing so, so low. Do you be honest? Like literally just be honest and authentic? Because this is the thing, here she goes, well, right, is that the thing that I really struggle with is that some of my wife can't understand, I'm a dad, because certainly can't understand recruitment. But you're placing people with people. It's a people business. But yet we don't take the time to go meet these people and just be authentic and be human. Don't understand it. Like why do people want to do that? Mental. Or why they don't think it's important. Mental. I literally just, I do not understand that. The thing that you mentioned earlier, which I thought was interesting, which you sort of just said off the cuff as well was you also need to understand the scale of these projects. Just tell me a bit more about that because you said if you come across a niche or something, maybe a particular tool or software that people use, but then in terms of like, wrong that out in a business or there's a certain project that other things that it works, but like it just involves one person wrong that out. That isn't really what you want. Tell me a bit more about that because I think that was interesting. Well, I think when you stumble across a niche, like how I did, only when I was one or two people that use that technology, so totally irrelevant. I think what you need to understand when you are building out a contract book within a niche because I'm only ever been in that sort of area is how many users are there? What is actually how many contractors are out there? What percentage of the market is that you could obtain realistically? So in my world, like the probably the total weekly GP can get up to would as a maximum would probably be 40k. What are you based on after? Like LinkedIn searches or what? I know every single candidate in that market. Okay. In fact, do you remember? For like, okay, but you didn't have one point. Yeah, I didn't have one point. So how would you map out the potential of a contract book would it be with LinkedIn? LinkedIn, yeah, absolutely. LinkedIn and then, you know, little things like when you go on to like a CV library or job boards, whatever it is, and you type in that technology and then you do updated ever. So it brings up every single one and then you just speak into all those candidates and wrapping it out. But you have to know what the scale of it is. But with my technology as such, for every warehouse has a warehouse management system and that is global. Yeah. So part of it is how many people actually specialize and do it. Yeah. But then the other part was saying like, so if I'm rolling out this, I don't know how it works. I'm acting stupid here, but if I'm a warehouse and I'm rolling out this software, you're saying what would also be a really good green flag is that in order to do that, there's like 10 contractors in this to do that, not just one. Yeah, exactly that. And also it's the longevity. So like the programs work that I get involved in now are some of them at eight years. Wow. Yeah, the average contract length in the market is six months as a minimum. So you know you're not going to get a load of churn. I mean, the other thing was well, what I would recommend to people. So what I actually, I actually, basically, I could create a universe, but I created the contract market in WMS. So I don't know how I managed to come up with this. So a permanent person would be back then would have been paid 40 grand per. 30 grand per maybe. So what I was doing was I was ringing them and saying, I'm going to get your contract for three and a quid a day, four and a quid a day, whatever. And then on a month, on a one month's notice period. So I took a lot of people at a perm into contracting because the rates were a lot lower because there were permanence. There's good margin to be had on that as well. And the client was really happy. The candidate was really happy because they were earning five women in them, what they've ever earned as well. So I probably took 50 to 100 people out of permanent work into contracting. And is that still the case now? Yeah, that's still part of the game. I can't even get into that because I've come across that a lot as well. I'm interested about that in terms of what that looks like. Just to round out this bit here, then we also put staying informed. What does that all that to you? Obviously making sure we were speaking to a network. Yeah, knowing who's the best. So that's part of it. And in for now, again, that we're doing, is it just conversations meeting people, speak to people? Is it anything else that we can do to actually stay informed? I think like little things like being subscribed to newsletters around your industry is really, really important. It gives you more information. It's like in my world, I get like there's a magazine called the Logistics Manager, which lets me know where new sites are being built and stuff like that. So you can follow that information. I mean, even in my world, I've got relationships with people at CBRE that build the warehouses. So I know when they're going to be going, I've been ahead of anybody else does. So I think you have to get as much information from as many areas as what you can do. As many touch points, as many trends as possible as well. I think it's really, really important. But you only get that from the end users or the people that physically are doing those systems. It's really truly immersing yourself in that world. I'm incredibly passionate about this. That's my next question. I can tell how passionate you are. Do you think you have to be without question? Really. Yeah. So you think it follows to do your market. Yeah. And I wasn't that passionate with you. But like I wasn't that passionate about warehouse software or logistics. You think that would impact my success. You wouldn't be successful. Yeah. Do you think that's a cross market you've seen? Now you've worked in bigger businesses and stuff. Like do you think that plays out? Yeah. I think it's not just about the market. I mean, I love my market. Right? So when I'm driving the car and my wife and the car and you see a lorry go by and I go, "Jell, what was my management system that you use?" I don't give a fuck. I couldn't care less. So it's passionate about that, but it's passionate about people. That's the people in the industry. Just people. So the biggest thing that I love in my job is seeing the amount of people that have managed to change their lives. The byproduct of that for me is money. How fantastic is it that you can take people on a journey, hold the hand, change their lives with other great career or more money or whatever it would be. So they can provide for their families and all the rest of it. That's the beauty of what we do. We change people's lives and people often just forget about that and look at it like a transaction. It's got to be passionate, got to care. Fair enough, yeah. Because you hear that a lot as well. But you can tell how much of an edge I give you. But also how much there's going to be a hard chance that you can do this for the long run, which is when you're going to really read the rules for your hard work. Yeah. And if you're not passionate about it, you're not going to do the extra work you need to. It's been detrimental to me, literally been detrimental with how much work I've done. And I've struggled to switch off and I've done a closer deal at a family wake and also. Yeah, like mental, but I just I love it. So every day for me, I just love it. Literally everything on my own wake up and I did my two hours work on a saturday in the Sunday. Got some business environment going and all the rest of it. I just love it. It's lover. So next thing that we got then is known your numbers. Yeah. Let's get into this. So yeah, curious to hear your take on this. When you've had your contract book at its peak, what typically did the client spread look like? And then my follow up question is what if we were to build out the perfect contract book that would diversify perfectly, what if it now did it like, but typically what did your diversification look like? Because a lot of big hit is contract wise. I've spoken to you. They've ended up landing this like one monster account. Yeah. And then it's like generated most of their good spread is like 10 clients in terms of seeing mitigating risk then because there's always a chance that funding is going to get pulled. There's also chance for projects going to be pulled earlier, whatever. So I think it's like, I've seen it so many times where literally the consultants had a call saying, we've terminating contractors and going low 10 grand wgp just gone within four weeks. So I think being over 10 makes it safer as well. And I think it means that you're not just relying on one account where people can just get really lazy. So when you say 10 clients, how many contractors across each of those clients do you think? I don't think there's a set number to go through. I think that if you can get two to three contractors, each one of those clients, the reason why I say 10 is because again, what recruiters do in the main, what I've noticed is they'll win a client, place a contractor, move on to the next client. They won't nurture that relationship and really go out there and understand how many contracts have you got, how many times you go external with an agency, what you spend, I mean, I'm going for a slight tangent, but when I first started doing the domestic market, I won M&S as a client many years ago. And I went and saw them at Waterside House. So I've so spined the director, I was like, I'm smashing it here. I know these contractors. I've got 10, 15 contractors, whatever. And he was like, James, how many people do you think M&S employed just at Waterside? I was like, no idea. It's just like 5,000. He goes, how many are you working the contractors? I said, no idea. He goes half. So again, perception of what good looks like. That's such a good lesson. It's such a good, I mean, absolutely. You know, me and my little, yes, in my little world, I was dominating. You said you're killing it as well. Yeah, I was absolutely smashed in there. No, no, no, no. I think there was so much for the insurance. You've got such a small percentile. What you want to get to a point of is doing a great level of service for these clients, but also knowing that you should be able to get repeat business two or three opportunities in a month from 10 clients, really, is what you would sort of hope. And then it makes you the business of element a lot, lot easier. I think if you say one track with one client, very, very, very high risk, very high risk. Yeah. Because you obviously learnt how to do this now consistently. I was just speaking to someone today about how they're training their team to do more of this because they just all contract, come very much, just be like, deal, move on, deal, move on. So if I was to place one to contractors into a client and we've identified or I know that they're probably hiring other contractors, what would you do in, I don't know, maybe the next 90 days from me having that initial success with them? Am I, are you saying to me, he should we need to get into that office and meet them? Absolutely. What am I doing in those next 90 days that could lead to repeat business, do you think? Yeah. So I think for me, when you take a role, Bri, from a new client, you have to put out your store in terms of how you recruit and how you've shown that it's been successful. Because a lot of clients would go, just send me a CV, right? And I'm going to add 12 of the agencies and all that sort of stuff, never get hold of them, really poor commitment. What it would be able to do is put back to them and say, this is what works, right? And part of that is the after placement meeting. I'm giving out about meetings with people like, people just don't meet people. So for me would be first 30 days meeting that client to do an after placement review, meeting the contractor afterwards. Because it can be a bit awkward if you've got the contract from the client and the contact you're doing a shit job. The client can't really say much. So I think that's a really, really important one. And then meeting the candidate a couple of weeks afterwards or something like that. But speaking to him frequently and just saying, what are the projects are going on? How many of the contractors are there and then doing a lunch, bringing the contractors that aren't via you to a lunch as well? 99% people go, I've never met recruiter. I haven't met my own recruiter. Yeah, yeah. So I think that's the most important one and just them knowing that you're present when they need resource. Because what you always want to understand is like red, amber, green projects have worked. So the clients are speaking to go like over rolling quarter or six month period, what projects think are definitely going to land, which one is going to think are potential and which ones are like an absolute fly. But if they come off, you're going to need resource. So we benchmark and resource them all the time in terms of this is what the tunt's available. Should you recall? Can you get the client to share the pipeline? Right. That's interesting. And then you give them a category of like green amber red. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then you know that there's a, you shouldn't just look at what is coming in day to day. That's all she needs. So that's what I do for him. This is what's been successful. This is where I can do better than what the recruiters are that you partnered with at the moment. So it's almost like a way of differentiating yourself. Love that. Because what you're doing there is, you know, you're going to have a lot of work to do with the client. And then you're going to have a lot of work to do with the client. about that, right? You're not just talking to them about it. Yeah, I've got this person that's done this. (dramatic music) A very quick one from me and we'll get back to the conversation. Alongside hosting this podcast, I'm also the founder of Hector, the online skills development platform, helping recruiters, solo founders, and growing businesses master the skills to dominate their markets. Whether you're a solo founder, wanting to hone your recruitment skills alongside a lot of my community, an ambitious recruiters striving to hit their targets faster or maybe a recruitment leader focused on building high performing teams. Hector has got you covered. All of our courses are delivered by today's top performing recruiters. So you're gonna get practical proven strategies not outdated theory. Book your free skills assessment session with me today and let's find out if Hector can help you achieve your goals. The links in the show notes, check it out, and let's see if we can help. And to you point when you're saying about contractors about fake jobs, when you speak into the contractors, you can go, I've got side to these projects that come in with this client. This should be coming in. I'd love to get you in the mix on it. - It's the market information again. - Market intel. - I love that. So one thing that people can take from that, then if you've not got some sort of after placement, care meeting as part of your process, you need to implement that. - Yeah. - Sharpish. - I think I don't get again with recruiters, is like, we're such a poor about, they don't own the contract book. It's a reflection they don't own the contract book because they don't give enough time and attention to really go meet these people. I can't even go about the meeting thing. I just don't get it. - Well, let's just talk about that because you mentioned it a lot. So you do the UK and your at market. - Yeah, I've also been in Egypt as well. Which has been a bit careful. - Okay. - In Cairo. - So let's just get your take on this then. If I've had a month and I say to James, I've had a good month of meetings. What are you expecting to see? - What's their definition of what a good meeting is? I think when I first started out, I thought a good meeting and I hate this term. Now, I want to look back at our cringes and say, are you around for a coffee? - Terrific. - Okay. - I'm in the area who cares. - Right. - Right. So what have you got out of that meeting and what I'll be in mind that is, is there terms that's been agreed? Is there future projects? What's the market information? Anyone can go and book a meeting in a company. There's no value behind it. So it think you have to have measurable terms of life. What does good look like from a meeting? - Well, let's break that down then. But firstly, I know we're talking about quality there, but quantity matters as well. We're not gonna get any inequality if we're not meeting enough people. - But I would disagree with you actually. - Oh really? I think it's better to have five high quality meetings. - Yeah, but in terms of what I wanna get from you first, you said, no, I'm meeting anyone. So if I'm saying to you and I'm in your team, I've had a good month for meetings this month, not in terms of how good the meetings were, but I've felt like I've met a good amount of people this month. How many meetings do you expect me to have had? I wanna hear what you're saying. - Oh, sorry. Okay, so what my interpretation of good would be? - Yeah, in terms of how many meetings, 'cause you're saying very confidently, no, I'm meeting anyone. So what do you think is, how often you meet in people is what I wanna know? And what do you think is okay? - So I would do 20 face face meetings a month. - Okay, nice. That's what one's gonna get from you. - Yeah, 20. - So five a week potentially? - Yeah, so like I've been in London for the last two days and like after here, I'm going to see a comment for dinner. You know, I genuinely wanna go and see 'em 'cause it is a really nice guy anyway, if he's listening. But you know, it's stuff like that is just, you know, I met the client for lunch earlier today. You have to make the most efficient use of your time, but I reckon the majority of cruisers would meet one or quarter. - And you were saying 20 face to face not teams, that's absolutely not teams. - Absolutely not teams. - That doesn't count, okay. So 20, and then do you think that's also plausible if I do the Euro market, that region commit to like going over, like batching some meetings? Okay, so let's do client first, or someone with decision power, or I might as well whatever, program manager, whatever the job title, what would make it a good client meeting? So you're saying some of the things there in terms of projects until whatever, what are some of the key bits? - Yeah, so I think project intel is really important, but I think also rapport with that client. I'm in a position now whereby, if I haven't got the right feel for the client in terms of relationship wise, you know, we won't work together. So I think I don't look at them, a lot of them recruit us to take it like all the time. because don't know, from managers, no one the rest of it, I think, do you want to work for that client and that manager? Our terms agreed, our commercials appropriate as well, because people often get concerned about saying what their rates are and all that sort of stuff. So I think it's that, and then the commitment to be working exclusively together on pieces of work. I don't work on jobs that have got other agencies working on them. - Okay, and if I said, James have had 10 good quality contractors meet in this month, what does that mean for you? - Information, but also like, again, the rapport with the contractor, and how much follow-up will we have in from those meetings? I suppose it would be the big one. So what's the market information, how the contractors see in the market, are they getting approached a lot by the sort of of the recruiters out there? What sort of projects they've been spoken about, et cetera? I'm in a position now with the contractors that I have that I've known for so long. They send me other agencies jobs. - Yeah, I hear that a lot when you do really well, yeah. - They, well, they literally watch that meeting go, this is the client, FYI, get cracking. - Yeah. - I don't want it. So, that happens weekly. - Do you have your contracts on the WhatsApp group? - Yeah. (laughs) - Talk to me about, so we put here weekly GP targets, understanding your weekly gross profit, target and how many contracts that are given average weekly GP. I think you said like, it's so, we put here, no numbers right, we're talking a bit about it, we're talking about the client spread, but talk to me about this weekly GP thing. Like, if I was say, "I'm a really good quality contractor recruiter, what numbers would you expect me to know inside out?" - I can answer that very quickly. - Let's go. - So, average weekly GP and how many contractors? - Okay. - And they're not people that don't know that. He's quite astounding. - So how many contractors am I weekly GP? - Yeah, as in the average weekly GP. - The average weekly GP. - Yeah. - Per contractor. - Per contractor. - Got you. So we put here, challenging the average, don't settle for the standard 100 pound per day margin. - Yep. - And that combines with transparency with rates. - Yeah. - Let's just talk about this, because no, this is quite key for you. You've got a strong belief, right? - So, the one thing is the perception of what you should charge. So actually one of my team, an infinite, said to me, so I'm going to give him the QDoS for it. Why are we charging 100 pounds a day as an average margin on a contract? I was like, well, I've always done what S3 put in me was like, that's your average 100 pound, where your GP can't go below it. If you get a bit of fine, but like that's just standard. So he said, like, why don't we just do 150 or 200? And I was like, I don't know. So let's just try it. So our standard now in NXA is 150 to 200 pound a day as a margin. Now, I think the biggest thing that we did at infinite and what I've always done is saying to the candidate, this is the budget that we have from the client, the total charge to the client. So the client said to you, I all I want to pay 600 quid, including your margin. Like I said, the contractor, this is exactly what you're going to be charged out at. How can we make everyone make money from it? So there's no ambiguity. I tell the client exactly what the contract has been paid. So there's no ambiguity or that's the biggest thing that the contractor say to me is the recruiters won't tell them what the actual budget. So why do you think they are a bit fearful of doing that? Is it because they don't want to feel like they're taking all the money? They don't want to be like, 'cause there must be a reason. I think the reason would be that they are embarrassed about the perceived amount of money that they're charging so they don't really believe in their skill set. As soon as they bring it, I have full confidence in saying to the client about the percentages that we have because I know how much value I bring to them. So I think that in the curriculum, fortunately, you try and knock down a candidate, try and get as much margin as you can do. People don't go back to the client and push the client up and go, 'Actually, then must have another 10% in your budget. I, what's going on, they don't challenge the client enough. When I've heard a whole story on rates, there's a guy who got hammered down on his rate, hammered hammered hammered down. And the contractor. Yeah, bought the recruiter, hammered down. He was a project manager and he then was the budget controller. So he then saw what his day rate was and it was sometimes like a 200 quid margin mental. So he invited the recruiter on site to a meeting with him, resource meeting under that guys. And he just showed him he said, that's what I'm being charged at, isn't it, to the recruiter? And the recruiter was like, oh, yeah, it is. So he's like, you've screwed me down on the rate so you can try and get that ridiculous rate. So not ideal. That's an awkward meeting. Yeah, again, I guess it's these edges right and being memorable, standing out. Again, just train it with real authenticity, honesty. But I think the bit that I take from there that when you were talking about is you've got a real belief on why your margin is the margin. Yeah. Well, I'll look at it as they're getting 13 years of experience and expertise. So that comes at a cost. But I do understand if I'm listening to this right now and the main reason why I'm trying to get the contractor down is because my manager wants me to, it's harder than that, because that is not all it is. I want to hear a horror story. My own horror story. It's a horrible one. It's a horror one. So I placed a candidate when I was at S3 and we would at extension point and the contractor wanted more money on his extension. And we were making about £750 a day. So it was a big, big margin back then. So I got on the phone to the manager and started the contract once more money. Have you got any more money in your budget? And she said, what are you paying them? I hadn't told her. So say it was 600 per day, we were charging her. The candidate was getting 450. And I went, it's going to be hard to ask him, James, she's not going to tell me. Oh, it's 450 as you're making 150 and you're asking for 30 quid a day in a crate. So your credibility nuked. That's horrified me. What happened after that? She never spoke to me again. Really? Yeah, never spoke to me again. Yeah. Would you instruct us to do that? Yes, my manager was listening into the call. And they were like, James, right? Let's try and get some more money. Yeah. That's the thing. When you're starting out in recruitment or any sales job or any job, you're led by what your manager tells you to do. No such thing as mistakes in life's lessons to be learned. That is one that will, for sure. I won't make the rest of my day. So if I'm listening right now and I've never been transparent with my rates, might be in multiple, like, all different reasons. How would I go about starting to do that? Like, may sound obvious, but just interesting to you, take like, we've spoken maybe you might have been convinced by here and you're talking about it. How can I go about starting doing that? Do I start to speak to clients and making that part of my sort of, the way that I talk to them? Contractors, how would you start being transparent? I think I would start by when you get a role brief. And you get the budget from the client, speak when you're qualifying candidates for the role, doing exactly what I've said in terms of, this is exactly what you're being charged at to the client, section to quit. Why I ideally want to make 150, whatever it is, that leaves you with X. Are you happy with that amount of money? Yes or no? No, I'm not. Okay, so as you know, I need to make some margin on it as well. Where can we fit into a happy medium and just see how it goes? And what you'll realise is that the candidate is then not thinking against screwdriver, you've been totally straight with them as well. Nothing to hide. Because why should there be a sort of a forgarsie around day rates that don't understand it? So that's what I would do. I would try on it in that way. But it is all about delivering. Obviously. Yeah. And also make sure the figure that you're telling them is accurate. That's true. Because if they then end up getting on site and figure it out, that's what I think. Oh, she's like that. That's what I think. Yeah. Unique. Managing finishes, extension strategy. We're talking about an extension story there. But obviously this is also key as well, isn't it? In terms of like, really again, understanding, looking ahead, five of my contracts are due to finishing three months time. What am I doing about that? I don't know. Tell us about this. Obviously, this was also really important. Yeah. So absolutely essential. Regardless of if you're getting to one grand a week or 50 grand a week, it just means it's more complex that obviously high number of finishes. So what I mean, I always have on my desk salataped was every finish show within a three month rolling period. Just it reminded me constantly in terms of who was finishing. But again, how you position it with a client is, if you do a three month contract, why are you doing a three month contract? And that's a six months anyway, because every contract will start looking after four to six weeks. Once they're in that thing, they'll look for the next one. Oh, well, once they've started. Yeah, yeah. If you're on a three month contract six weeks in, they're looking ahead for where they're going to get the next one, right? So it's the process, the client of saying, if I haven't got an extension from you by the second month of a three month contract or three months into a six month or whatever, or you can't tell me the likelihood, I will be accidentally getting that contract out to market. Really, really important. Because, you know, the amount of times I've heard contract recruiters didn't know that people were finishing. He's mental. If you know a contract, who's officially finishing, which is absolutely fair and reasonable, they all do, what are you doing with that contractor? You should be sending that out to all of the competitors of that client, all the people that use that technology stack straight away a month before it finishes. Yeah, got it. So it's one actually being really organised with and knowing. Yeah. And then what are you doing with that information? And also managing with the client as well, you know, saying Mr. Client, you're going to extend. This is the fact that from the start of a robbery for all this is after placement meeting, extension policy, etc. You need to be straight with the client, have outlook invites in the diaries with the clients, about these are the times I'm going to be checking in in terms of extensions, etc. And then you can say what the likelihood is, but you need to educate the client as well. In fact, still got the Saturday table on the desk or we've got a different system. I'm going to desk and then I'm going to have an office, and we'll do a wee work, so I think they'd appreciate it if I were. Yes, if I did that. So you're just on your CRM vibes? Well, CRM vibes, but I've also, you know, I've only got like 14 contractors, so it's more than manageable. Yeah, for. And I get John to do it as well. Yeah, really? So, yeah. So what about like peak infinite though? Was it all through the CRM? Yeah, all through spreadsheet. Yeah, so literally the ballhorn generated finishes. But again, it's counter-period on the contract recruiter. They should know what finishes, how much. So in a rolling monthly, so say what are we doing now in February? So you would know for the end of March, what are your scheduled finishes? Because if you're going to grow a contract book, the easiest way to do it is to understand the months that you need to sell 'cause you know you're going to be losing, so just to sustain where you are, and then the months where you can grow as pure profit in terms of increasing. Because about times you get to 5K, and then you get knackered on your finishes, and then psychologically trying to get back up to that is so, so difficult. Oh, yeah. But you need to give yourself the best opportunity to do it. And that's where again, meeting the people, keep on saying, you'll understand what are the projects going on within that client, you get all that intel. Yeah. And I think from sitting down with people, learning from people like you, I think a big part of it is really leveling up in terms of like being that resource partner. Yeah. Because imagine, like it's going to be very difficult if the only conversations you're having is just super transactional, it's just like, oh, I need this contract to have you got someone. It's not very strategic, is it? You can't really do much planning around that. It's like, I hope it's going to be a good deal. personal call me or hope his personal pick up the phone so I can sell in this contract is it's just hand to mouth isn't it it's not. Yeah absolutely. And you know what in real quick you will get lucky with a few like that. Could you you do just get lucky on occasions but it's where you want the real residual revenue and it's like the other thing that a lot of people don't do is when the contractors finish and they go with another agency going to meet them. The contractor. Yeah because they're in with the client you're not in with so why again you've got the trust of them and built up all the rapport and the relationship with them from before. Why would you go meet the other agency's contractor and you do that because because I want to win that client. Right. And also to be a result of the recruiters because they haven't met him to be honest with you. So I'm telling you is that she is actually truthful so like over the last 12 months. Yeah. How many contractors have you met that have gone I've never met another recruiter. What would you say percentage what I was roughly 90 90. Yeah really and then what about client potentially higher really yeah because recruiters perceive and meeting his teams right so you're saying face to face. Absolutely. I will not do a teams unless it's absolutely like where you're saying you wouldn't do a teams in like one of your input like critical meetings. I would get in my car and drive that. So I've been able to do it. Also doing teams calls right obviously with people shortly. Love video calls. I do but I don't like doing them. I just I don't have any form of human. So you're saying that 90% number is like when you meet people face to face you're saying by the way like could you ever met another recruiter before. Yeah. They're going 90% the time and I haven't actually. Yeah. One example of it I was out in I took a client out a few months ago. It was a big big client of mine and she used another agency which is going against what I've said historically actually but she used other agency because it was in different sort of area within the casino and all the rest of it. And I've been on a don't can don't gambling or anything like that clearly. Well then my surname is gamble but I said just out of interest. I said these are the rates that you use for this air which is outside of my wheelhouse. How many placements have you done she had probably 15 to 20 in the last year but you've never come in with me. Really? Yeah. So now we talk about kids and all sorts of stuff she's a personal friend because I made the effort to go and have a dinner and I love doing that anyway but it's really mean that if you're getting paid on a permanent base like 1015 grand fee and you can't go meet a client how ludicrous is that in whatever transaction would you pay 1015 grand and not meet someone. Yeah. I just want to hear you take on this like what do you generally believe is the edge of it is giving you like I get so obviously part of it is that perception like you know what fair play Jones really made an effort here and I've like others on so you're in it so you're going to get an edge in that aspect because 90% of other people they've interact with paid they've never met. Yeah. But besides that what's the edge that you're getting what is it do you know what I mean what's the benefit. It's little things like you can then go to site and understand how your candidate's going to have to get on to site. Right. How you're going to sign in like what does it look like is it difficult to get to physically I love going to be told around the warehouse so you can then authentically tell the candidates like this is what it's like it's got automation it's got this in it but also I would say that you can only build a truly long lasting relationship by meeting people face to face and then what that means is that you're the front of their mind when they do have a requirement. So I get I get a text from a client on a Friday saying can you jump on a quick call I need resource for Monday because I've met them a couple of weeks ago or whatever you're at the forefront on you. This is all those little edges and there's all those little bits that add up. Absolutely. But you have to do all that consistently. Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you before we wrap up was just interested to hear how you dance this was. Obviously, we've heard a lot about how you approach things now and the answer might be still very much the same but just curious. Obviously, you've done all of the hard yards on building these relationships. You've been committed to this niche for how many years when you was on like the come up. I want to hear people how they were because if people were just to copy what James is doing now, it's not going to work is it because like they haven't done all the other bits. I think there's my job to make sure that we paint a picture of like, what was you doing when your book was 5k with KGP and then it got to 10 to 15. So you might have covered it all today but I was just curious here to take on like, what was James doing when he was building like, what was you working long hours? What do you know I mean? Yeah. So I mean, I was doing, I still do crazy against God. I love it. But yeah, I would be in the office at seven in the morning, leaving at six, seven o'clock on an evening. I think when you're building something you need to understand, it's not going to come within six months, 12 months when you're first starting out. It's going to take you 18 months, two years for it to really start paying off. And I think the most important thing is when you start to see success, don't drop off and crease the album. Yeah, absolutely 100%. So do more consistently. Because I think so people go off hitting now, rock star and they'll see a big page yet. They'll get himself a Rolex and buy champagne or the rest of it. But they're telling that I off the ball in terms of always being there first and always doing the disciplines that you need to be successful. I still do the same as what I did when I was at S3 when I was at 25 grand. I still work it that same. Day to day. Yeah. Oh, you shouldn't have to give me that then quickly. What would you mean by that? Do you literally split up your day? No, I'd love to be able to say that you know, I'm going to put four and do yoga and all that sort of stuff. So would you mean when you say I still do what I did, S3 was that mean? As in outreach. So I've got my existing clients where I'm absolutely finding their no issues, see them all the time, etc. is the relentlessness of trying to win new clients. So that outputs you on about? Yeah. And I love them. So that is mapping out further clients within mainland Europe with the technology stacks and how many people can I speak to around what they're looking for within 2025? Yeah. The UK's, I'm not saying I've dominated the UK, but I'm pretty well known in the UK. You know who? I know who's who in that. But then the other part now is what I'm looking at is what other areas could complement what the domestic is. It worked like Jason to that. Right. So what is it supply chain? Is it a RP like automation? Where do I get some of the compliments? What I do perfectly? And against outreach and speaking to people. So what? Give me some numbers then. What is a good day of like what's typically aiming for output? What is that? How would you break it down? I think that's what people be interested in. And I'll work good looks like on that. So I think look for my perspective, bear in mind because my area is niche. It's not volume volume, but some people might perceive. So I would say 20 new clients contacted a day. Okay. With a quality, with the brush that we've got with a quality CV as well showing the benchmark in terms of what you're doing. But with a really tired email, some of the lazy emails that I've seen is just like horrific. 20 a day. 20 years. 20 years. Yeah. In my words. So I have the number around like how many clients you're adding in your accounts that use your technology and your niche or not. Is that part of the 20? That's part of the 20. All right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So how many means are going to be existing clients with new managers? What's the go around that? So try and get five book to week. Five a week. 20 net new five. Be existing. Yeah. So with the clients to get really well with, you know, they obviously refer me into a lot of their people who are hiring anyway, but like who else is it that would hire a similar skill set and can you make instruction for me? And I think you box off them really stable. I love it. If we sit down and six to our months, and ex they tell him what we're saying, what are the goals? What's the big guys around first year in business? That's normally a solid milestone that people have or some goals. In terms of what GP or what you want to share with me, like what are you doubling down on what you excited about? Where do you hope and things are going to be next week's time? So I think it's a good question. That is. So I think if I'm going to get the contract book by the half year point, but 10k we GP. So in the next two months or so, that's where I want to get, but where I really like to get to have a concert figure, but the so much of cash in the bank as well. So I know that forward seller is a covered for 12 months, et cetera. And I think having three to four staff is what I would say would be success for me. But James being that's a pleasure. Thanks for your honesty. Yeah. Really appreciate sitting down. I think, yeah, always enjoy sitting down with people there. So like can just tell how passionate you are. I'm not surprised that you've really built out this now going to be successful business, but the success you have had, I'm not surprised at all. So I really appreciate you joining me. My appreciate of time is I know you were very high flying individual, aren't you? With the 41,000 followers on LinkedIn. So I appreciate your time as well. Thank you. Let me tell the story. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. I hope there were plenty of golden nuggets for you to take away. As you know, I'm your host here of the recruitment mentors podcast, but I'm also the founder of recruitment mentors. We're a online subscription based learning and education platform. We're on a mission to help thousands of recruiters achieve their professional goals and successfully progress their careers through modern and engaging online learning. So if you're a recruitment business owner listening to this is a good chance that you value self development, personal development. You're trying to develop a culture of continuous improvement, but we've partnered with a number of grown recruitment companies who were struggling to understand how they can invest more in their people, how they can skill them more quickly without spending more time, without having to spend thousands of pounds of external trainers and we've ended up being a really great fit, modern fit for recruitment teams. 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