How to Build a Personal Brand Without Quitting Your Day Job - Ryan Dunlap & Njsane Courtney

One man was a hostage negotiator, sat across from people at the worst moments of their lives and talked them back from the edge. The other, while he climbed the corporate ladder all the way up to vice president of human resources and then built an industry leading podcast on the side, turning into a trusted voice for thousands of professionals by sharing the truths that most HR departments are too scared to say out loud. And today, they are both in the room. This is what happens when a career built on pressure meets a career built on influence. So picture this, a man sitting in his car outside a CBS holding a pack of balloons talking to his phone with zero followers watching and then he wakes up the next morning to 10,000 new followers, then 20,000, then 50,000 and then within a day over 100,000 people are watching a man untie a balloon and using it to teach the world how to survive pressure without pocket. I had a friend of mine who said, "Hey, man, you need to share this content on TikTok." And I said, "With the dancing kids?" "No." I went and got a pack of balloons from a CVS. I sat in their front seat in my car, put my cell phone, resting against the gear shift and I said, "Hey, we really need to learn how to start untying our balloons." Went to bed one night, woke up the next morning and the TikTok thing was broken. The balloon video had blown up overnight and I was like, "What is this?" Next is Ryan Dunlap, former SWAT hostage negotiator, founder of Conflict Ish, author of How to Untie a Balloon and the architect of a framework that has helped leaders across four different continents stop managing everyone else's conflict and start mastering their own. And right next to him is Jassani Courtney, a sitting VP of HR who built the show My Friend in HR into one of the top podcasts in the industry. He speaks on stages from Houston to London and his living proof that you don't need to choose between climbing the corporate ladder and building your own name. You can do both. You tend to be the sum of your five closest colleagues. If you hang around a bunch of people who eat poorly and don't take care of themselves and party all night, chances are you have some are all of those habits. And you should want to surround yourself with people who are ambitious. They don't have to have the same goals and aspirations, but they are trying to achieve something greater. Sometimes relationships have seasons. There are times where you do have to say, you know what, I just have to move on. And in our conversation today, we talk about how a cold introduction turned into a true friendship, how a viral video became a movement and why the people who actually make it rarely got there because they were the most talented in the room. They got there because they have to courage to start before they felt ready. If you've ever held yourself back because you didn't feel qualified, connected or brave enough, this episode is your permission slip. And this is Big Swings Only. I'm going to start with Ryan because look, I know a Kwame story, right? Because it's a story as old as time. Like, you know, hey, the need for negotiating and know how to negotiate and have the courage to just say the words. But Ryan, again, man, the number of followers that you have and the feedback. I mean, I see the comments and the message that you deliver is so timely and so needed. But the question is the origin. Like every good Marvel movie or every good superhero movie, I want to know the origin story. So tell me how you started down this path of saying, you know what, this is a message that needs to be heard. Yeah, I mean, I think the cool thing about it was it wasn't planned this way, right? And we landed here because of my intentional efforts to redevelop myself after a career transition, right? So for those who don't know my backstory, right, I started a law enforcement and I spent a lot of time doing a lot of different things. A lot of folks become cops and they do one thing for their entire career. I did different things every week. And the opportunity I had to do something different I signed up for it. So I did robbery test for special operations, burglary detective, gang intelligence, special victims detective, forensic audio examiner, squad horses, negotiation, crisis intervention officer and a whole list of other things. And you know, the red thread for me throughout my law enforcement career was I was trained in condition to have really, really high stakes conversations. And my wife and I were talking around the 2015 time period about me either joining the FBI or stepping out of law enforcement completely. And at that time, my wife was kind of tired of me getting shot at for very little money. So I stepped in to ministry and started serving as the director of security at our church. And that was really the first moment, the first time in my life I did anything that I wasn't good at. Not the ministry side, but the people side. I struggled that first year to connect with people in ministry. And I mean, I'm talking in the mirror, like pleading with the Lord, like please take me back to law enforcement because it was so difficult. And what I've learned, I've got language for it now. I didn't really understand it then, but the biggest challenge for me was I was a very courageous communicator. Not in a sense that I was abrasive, not in a sense that I was rude, but in the sense that I was willing to have the hard conversation about the obvious issues. And I didn't realize that most other people weren't like that. And a lot of ministry settings, people don't say the things. They smile and they grin and they bear it. And I didn't have a tact for that. And so I started learning and re-learning communication. Not the how to have a hard conversation, but how to have a tactful conversation, how to have a soft conversation. And I realized that most of the problems I was experiencing in ministry was because of things that I had not yet figured out in myself. It was very easy for me to point a finger at all these other people and they're soft. They haven't seen what I've seen. They need to, you know, all those other things. But the reality was, I started asking myself questions like, well, yeah, they might be soft, but why am I so hard? You know, they, they, they, they might have thin skin, but why is mine so thick? So I started working on me. And once that happened, it did open some doors for my career, transformed. I went from director security to pass our life safety to executive director of operations for that organization and was invited to serve on the anti-human trafficking organization as executive director, served on two state task forces. Just did a lot of very cool things on the other side of that. But really the crux of this was in 2021, 2021, 2022. When I was coming around there, I just got fed up with working for other people. I had my, my own kind of realization that no matter what job I had, my function almost always became the same thing. I was always the person people called when things got difficult. I was the person people called when the conversation needed to be had, but nobody was willing to have it. And so that was really the, the impetus for me to think about this thing called conflict ish and thinking about from the standpoint of what is it that I'm uniquely equipped to do to help other leaders do that no one else is helping leaders do. And it wasn't conflict with your neighbor. It wasn't hard conversations with another person. It wasn't negotiating a deal. It was getting honest with yourself about yourself. And so this whole idea of conflict is started with helping leaders get their own ish together. From childishness to foolishness to hellish attitudes and screenish conversations and diminished productivity, how can I help a leader honest with themselves about themselves, which is what I did as a negotiator. What I did as a detective, right? You sit across a room and you can find a way to convince someone to speak and act against their own self interests when you are really, really good at interrogation, not to the sense where you're beaten people up, but that people feel actually, I don't know, it's the word I'm looking for, relieved when they confess to a crime. You know what I mean? Taking that same energy from the interrogation room into the board room. And that's what we've been able to do. So it started off initially as coaching, just on the, but it turned into primarily key note speaking. And that's a big, that's a big part of what I do now. So I'm still reconciling that. But yeah, man, that's really the origin of it. The real origin was I was not as equipped to navigate regular conversations. I was dope in a crisis, but when there wasn't one, I'd created it. And I needed to find a solution to not be the problem cause or but to instead be a problem solver. Wow. I mean, that's such an amazing story. And I mean, in kudos to you, man, because most folks don't have the emotional intelligence to reflect internally, right? It's so easy nowadays to say that that person's the problem or that person's the reason why this is going on. And while that person may play a factor in whatever conflict's going on, to have the emotional intelligence to stop is okay. That might be true, but what do I need to fix in myself or what do I need to examine to make sure that this gets better in the future? We don't run so same issue. So that, that, that, that's an amazing story cause most folks don't have the courage to do that. And so, it's well, so since I got you, you got two amazing guys, a gentleman here, I want to talk about something, right? So I've been in this space for a little while and the things that I've been able to see and do. it's such a blessing. But you guys have been at it a little bit longer. And it's so easy for people who see both of you online, they look at your feeds, they look at, they do the comments to see where you are right now. And just say, man, look at Kwame, man, he's on there with Mel Robbins, or he's rubbing elbows and having a drink with Simon, saying, you know, you look at, you look crying, right? (laughing) Bottle away, I keep, like in every episode that I talk about Simon, and say, 'cause I literally have his book, and he leaves me last, that's one of my bibles up there. Simon's sending his book, he's gonna be at the Sherm Conference. Simon, he's my mentor. How much more? I, he didn't even know he's my mentor, but he is. But, and then Ryan with the massive following and the way people have gravitated by the hundreds of thousands to your content, it's easy for people to look at what you guys are right now, and just say, yeah, well, they've made it, and they're the exceptions. But they don't see that what it took to go from there to where you are now, and to build this empire or build this business, or just build this effort. Kwanmi starting with you, like talk about the evolution about where you started, to where you got here, it got to, and what was the biggest like, wow, this is a thing, this is not a hobby, this is a real thing. - Yeah. - It's a really funny story, Jassani, 'cause I've recognized that the building element of what I do has become kind of noteworthy, perhaps even more noteworthy than the negotiation stuff. So what's been interesting is that, just like you said, there's going to be some bright spots where it's like, oh, this is just something I can do. Hold up, there might be something here. Oh, wait, I got money for this. Oh, no way. That's the thing. And so now what's happening is people have been asking, hey, what's the PR team you use? And I say, it's not a PR team, it's my team. I built this, my team. And so I'm recognizing now that something that I do, I've done very well, is build a thought leadership and build a business that is kind of melded around your authenticity. You know, so it's interesting to see the different layers. So let's start at the very, very beginning. So for me, as a lawyer, I was just practicing law. I didn't want to be a lawyer, though. That was the interesting thing. Like, which is, which is obvious, somebody would do it. I was going to be like, let me do it. I'm going to be a lawyer for this. Let me be a lawyer for this. So I was psychology degree. That was the undergrad. Wanted to be a therapist. And then I said, well, as a therapist, I can only help one person. But if I shape public policy as a politician, then I could help more. Helping people is always the goal. And so then I got my law degree and a master of public policy. I was doing that at the same time. And I discovered something really interesting. I discovered that I didn't want to be a politician. I said, as I did more research, I was like, all of this is BS. This is ridiculous. And there's no way for me to be a competitive politician without taking money. And people are not giving that money away for free. So you're just going to be owned at a different level. So I'm like, I don't want to do this. So I was getting sworn in asking myself, what do I want to be when I grow up? Because I didn't know. And so really this negotiation stuff, all of this is me going back to my original love of psychology. And I was trying to find a way back. So I was practicing law. I started my own law firm after doing some policy work. And I said, OK, well, I had to have a kind of like a come to Jesus moment. Because I was like, I never wanted to be a lawyer. But here I am. But what is the thing that I like doing the most? And I asked myself this question. I said, if I could, what would I do if everything in the world was free? And I sat with that for months. And then I said, you know what? I would teach people how to negotiate. And how did I get to that? Because you all know like the prepackaged story about it. It's like, oh, I was a people pleaser. Then I found negotiation blah, blah, blah. But the way that I was building my-- building the law firm was by doing free negotiation trainings around the city. And that was my way of realizing that other people needed this. Number one, I enjoyed teaching it. And then I said, what if I could figure out a way to monetize it? And there wasn't anything around here that looked like this. So I said, let me just build it. So I started that. And I said, let me just start with a podcast. Because I loved podcasts. And I said, the biggest issue that I'm going to have right now is the fact that I'm 27 years old. There was no such thing as a young negotiation expert. And so I said, how could I figure this out through psychology? So a lot of my strategy is built on bias. So I said, OK, most negotiation experts are older. And they don't look like me either. So let me find a name that sounds old and established. So that's why I named it the American negotiation Institute. It sounds old money. I didn't call myself CEO. I called myself director. So it looked like somebody else chose me. And I did that for a while. And I said, when you think about age bias, age bias is a proxy for, I don't know if you can do what you say you can do because you're young. So I started doing the podcast to show that I knew what I was talking about. So I was doing that for a few months. And then a lawyer reached out to me. And I thought it was spam. I had so little confidence in all of this. I was like, there's no possible way. This is a real opportunity. But I said, I've got nothing to do. Let me call this guy. And he said, I've been listening to your podcast for a long time. And I've got this really sticky negotiation. And I'd like your help. I've been practicing law for 28 years. And I really struggle with the personal side of it. And I said to myself, as he was having that conversation with me, I said, you know what? This man that has no clue that I have been walking this earth for 27 years, even though he's been practicing for 28. But he brought me on. I made the money. We closed the deal. It was a multi-million dollar, like federal case. It was really, really interesting. And it worked. And so I did more consulting with him, closed another deal. It was really good. And I said, there might be something here. And so that was the bright spot. And I think now, at this point, like I've created a methodical approach for building thought leadership. And now the next element of what I want to add to the business is helping other people do the same. So how can other people create thought leadership and also make a business that actually works for them? Because for everybody that I've talked to, who is a thought leader, a consultant, a speaker, and everything, the speaking, consulting, the coaching, that's the easiest part. That's the easiest part. The hard thing is getting people to see you that way and build a business that's sustainable, like the quality of content and the quantity of content and the ability to build a brand. That is a separate and distinct skill that I've had to learn. And so the next iteration is going to be still doing the negotiation stuff, but also helping people to build their thought leadership too. Wow. That's a great story. I mean, there's just so many points where people can get nuggets from that in terms of understanding, like, first of all, taking a chance. And the way you positioned it was brilliant, right? Because when I first met you, and I said, the American negotiation institute, like it sounded like it was founded, like, and in the year of our Lord, Anno Damani, 1742, right? I was like, wow, this guy, and he made it to CEO, right? Exactly. Jutsani, I gave myself promotions. When I was a periodically engaged, I went from director to managing director to CEO. And every time everybody's like, wow, congrats. I think-- Oh, my God. Yeah, Kwambi started new positions. That is amazing. That is amazing. Well, I personally-- I'm actually a gas lighter. That's hilarious. [LAUGHTER] So Ryan, with your journey, what I really want to know is, OK, so again, you started off in law enforcement. You decided to use your gifts within the ministry. And there's the-- again, this is this evolution to this individual that we see in front of you. Tell us about that journey in terms of, like, when did you know? Like, wait a minute. OK, this is more than just me having a job. This is a calling that can actually provide-- that can actually go off and do my own thing. Tell me, tell us about that mental process. Yeah, it's a strange thing, man. I've always felt like I was that guy. I always felt like I was given a picture of what the future was supposed to look like years before I got it. So for me, it was never a question of, oh, I've got a thing. It was just figuring out, how do I package the thing and when will that be? So I was a kid. I started my first business when I was 14. I was cutting grass. And then I started a studio. I had a lot of friends. We bought cars when we were 16 years old. I'm talking like the day I was able to purchase a car, I bought a car because I had been saving for it. And we were big into like-- I don't say street racing. But we were in the fast cars. And so a lot of my friends kept getting in trouble with cars. And so I started another business when I was 17 or 18 years old called GetEyes.com, which was for imports, classics, and domestics. It was all about car shows and car performance. I mean, I did so many different things. I think I was a serial entrepreneur while I was still eating cereal. I was a serial entrepreneur while I was still eating cereal. You know? - Yeah, and it's amazing. - None of those things work, you know, as well as as conflict just does, right? So I never thought I was gonna be doing this. I thought I was gonna be doing music. In fact, the first business that I started that I thought was gonna be the thing was a forensic audio enhancement program. When I left law enforcement, my goal was to work with federal government, state and local law enforcement agencies to enhance a clandestine that recorded audio for court purposes. So think like wire taps and interrogation videos and things like that nature that you can't really hear well. That was my job as a detective. I was gonna start a firm do it. And I just quickly realized I didn't wanna work in that space. Specifically to conflict this man, I started doing videos with no goal in mind. I didn't like, I didn't consciously start creating the content because I wanted to market or build the brand. What happened was I knew I had a counter-cultural understanding of conflict, one that looked inward instead of outward. And so I wanted to reality test the frameworks in a public way. I just wanted to feedback. So I had a smaller channel that I wasn't using on Instagram. I just overnight, without telling anybody, I just changed the name, the lead at all the videos, called it conflict dish, and started posting conflict videos, which I know for the 500 or so people who were following me on account were like, who is this guy? What does he think he's doing? And so I was just sharing ideas, you know? And I was expecting people to push back. That's what I was expecting. And I didn't get a lot of push back. I got a lot of people who were just like, "Hey, that's an interesting perspective. Tell me more." So I would share more. And that just happened for a little while. And things didn't go very far. I didn't get much traction on it. I had a friend of mine who said, "Hey, man, you need to share this content on TikTok." And I said, "With the dancing kids?" Nah. (laughing) Nah, I'm good, man. He says, "No, man, there's a lot of learning happening on TikTok. You really need to like, you need to consider, just post the same videos with posted on TikTok." And I was like, "That's crazy." But I did it. I started a little TikTok channel. I had zero followers, and I started cross-posting videos that were on Instagram. And one video I did, I was sitting in the front seat of my car. I just left like a CVS, I think it was. And I bought a pack of balloons because I had this idea. I didn't know what I was supposed to do with it. I didn't reality test this stuff. Like I wasn't like Kwame. Okay. I just came up with ideas. I went and got a pack of balloons from a CVS. I sat in the front seat of my car. I put my cell phone, resting against the gear shift. And I said, "Hey, we really need to learn how to start untying our balloons." We get full of hot air, and it's really hard to let that air out without popping under pressure. I don't even remember what it was that I said. That's what I said. I posted it on TikTok. Went to bed one night, woke up the next morning, and the TikTok thing was broken. It said, "You have 10,000 plus new followers." And I was like, "Yeah." That, it doesn't. The TikTok is broken. That's why I'm playing over here. And I swiped it closed, put the phone down, went and got a cup of coffee, and I'm walking to the living room and I tell my wife, "I was like, "See, this is why I don't mess with TikTok." This thing is telling me, I got 10,000 followers over here. And she was like, "Let me see." So open the phone again, and the notification says, "You have 10,000 plus new followers." And I'm thinking it was the same message, but it wasn't. It was a new 10,000 follower message, 'cause when I went into the profile, it said we had 21,000 followers. And the balloon video had blown up overnight. And I was like, "What is this?" And so we swiped it and it says, "You've got 22,000 followers." And then you swiped it, it says, "You've got 23,000 followers." And you swiped it, it said 24. That night, I think it was that day, or maybe by the next day we had 50,000 followers on TikTok. And you know what I was thinking, yo, forget Instagram, we on TikTok now. (laughing) - We are all in TikTok now. So that was the first video that went viral for us. And it only went, I think maybe 300 and some of 1000 views on TikTok. Now here's what was interesting and here's what changed the business. That video had been sitting in Instagram for weeks with no traction. After when viral on TikTok, not reposing or sharing anything, it spiked on Instagram the day before Thanksgiving, 2022, I think it was. And I know this 'cause I was driving down the interstate to my dad's house and my phone was going crazy. (imitating music) I mean, my wife was like, "What is happening?" And I was like, and it was just new follower, new comment, new follower, new comment, new like new, and I was like, "Oh no!" But it tell me parked in my dad's house, we had gone from, I don't know, maybe a thousand or so on Instagram to close to 150,000. That was when I was like, "Okay." We might be on to something. So we started leveraging social media in that way. And then we stalled out for a little while and I started realizing some of the videos that were shorter did much better than the longer videos. And I didn't know why. And at the time, I learned eventually that Instagram only recommended videos that were 90 seconds or shorter. I was like 90 second content is easier to create than three, four minute content, the long content that I was creating. So I created this framework for messaging to take these really, really complex ideas that I had around conflict and to reduce them down to 90 seconds worth of speaking. For me at the rate that I speak, 90 seconds of content is roughly 250 words. So I knew if I could write 250 words concisely on one topic, I could deliver that 90 seconds or less and Instagram would recommend it. And that's how we were able to scale from 150,000 to now almost 550,000 on Instagram. It was with 90 second content, no trends, no trending audio, no dancing, no care sales stuff. Just trying to do a daily video 90 seconds or less is really what we did. We stayed consistent in this space when other people were constantly trying to chase an algorithm and it's worked for us. I don't know if it will work for other people, but it's been really, really helpful for what we do in this space. And what's been really cool for the business is, I thought the following meant that I had a deep well of consumers I could market to. I was like, oh man, that's 550,000 people who are gonna buy my insert whatever. And that's not what this is. That 550,000 on Instagram and the 200,000,000 over here, I think collectively we're just under a million on all the different platforms, right? What that does is it gives me credibility for the corporate contracts. So this is why the Fort and 50s call. This is why we have clients on four continents because they see that that's a trust factor and because of the trust factor of so many consumers, we're trusted in the boardroom. So that was the big pivot we had to make was to stop trying to sell to the Instagram crowd and the TikTok crowd and to start connecting with the businesses they work for. I mean, again, two really powerful stories about what it took to get to that next level and take Y'all's value proposition to the masses and make it successful 'cause you guys have done such amazing work. And the thing I'd like to focus on now is so, first of all, again, the only reason why Ryan and I are talking is because Kwame is gracious enough to share his network and it's one of those things where people really miss out. I'm telling people all the time, your net worth is all about your network. And honestly, like I said, there's about four or five really good connections I've made just through various encounters that have helped me get to where I am. And then I'm the same thing with you guys. I think, again, the iron sharpens, iron concept and people really underestimate the power of reaching out. And here's the thing, not reaching out when you need something. Reaching out to establish that network and trusted partners and collaborators so that when you do need something, it's more of a favor versus an ask and things like that. So, either one, I'll just leave it open, right? I mean, in terms of establishing your network, if somebody came and told you, I'm an introvert and I don't want to be on Instagram and I'm not trying to do all that, but they say they want to increase their network. What do you tell folks like that? - I would say, go ahead, Ryan. - Nope. (laughing) - Look, I want to hear Ryan start, Ryan, shake it in his head. - Kwame is the king of the network. I mean, everything that he's done in his last year is a byproduct of the reach out, right? You landed on some pretty big podcast recently, right? - Mm-hmm, how they're having for me? - Just reaching out, that's it. Big swings, big swings, man. And so it's so interesting. And it's like Mel Robbins, that was a cold pitch. I said, I was like, okay, let me try out this mentality. 2025, it is an experimental year testing out of hypothesis. Big swings only. If you have what it takes to hit the ball out of the park, the only thing that holds you back is whether or not you're going to take a big swing. I said, well, I'm swinging the further fences on everything. (laughing) And so most of us will miss, but nobody sees the misses. And then you just, just builds on the hits, right? So like, it's so interesting to see how this works. So Mel Robbins, cold pitch, got on that. And then she introduced me to the, my now book agent Heather Jackson and she was the agent that worked with Tim Ferris for four hour work week. And so now you see how we just keep on moving through it. I asked for recommendations and Mel and her team got me connections to some other big shows. And then whenever I go on a show I think about I ask hey who else do you think I could help with this message? And it's all based in generosity. And so it's then you just keep on moving through it and everything like that. And I try to do the same for my friends too because I know how this works out how it worked for me. And I want to be that catalyst for other people. And I think for the person who might be an introvert or whatever the self limiting belief might be is a couple of things. Number one, sometimes you have to be uncomfortable at first to do certain things. That's number one. And number two, there are more avenues that could really resonate with you. Because you can be a really, really great podcaster and be introverted. The myth about introversion is that they don't like talking to people. That's not true. They like having deep conversations with one or a very small group of people. Right. And so that's great for podcasting. And so that same person who's introverted and doesn't want to network and doesn't want to be on Instagram and things like that. Then don't then just do a podcast and have somebody turn it into clips. And then they put it on Instagram. What were you? Right. And I think you just have to figure out what really, really works for you while still trying to push the envelope a little bit. So podcasting was my thing. People didn't know what they looked like for the longest time. I was like, oh, I'm making it pretty well in podcasting. That's it. No, like no social media was good for me. Not LinkedIn, not Instagram. No, nothing. It was just the podcast. And then I heard, because I did a couple posts on LinkedIn and they never went well. I never saw a business case for social media on like Instagram, TikTok and everything and hearing right in store. You see how silly that was. And so I said, oh, listen, LinkedIn isn't working for me. These posts don't work. The algorithm doesn't like me. And I remember seeing a Gary V post. And he said, the reason why your content isn't moving is because it sucks. Make it better. I was like, oh, my God. I'm the problem. So then I then I tried to actually make it better and low and behold. It started to work. So you have to experiment, figure out what your strengths are. Double triple quadruple down on it. See where you could strategically expand with intentionality and do that. And then just keep on doing that and experimenting over time. And and I think a big part of it is be resilient and humble and very curious. Everything's an experiment. If you take this personally, you will not make it. You won't, you won't make it. There's always a reason to feel offended, hurt or disappointed in this game every day. It's a constant emotional roller coaster. You get a deal. You lose a deal. They want to feature you. They don't want to feature you. Some big names says they want to get on your podcast. You're like, wait, you reached out to me. And then you've scheduled it. Then they're like, ah, just getting like, what happened? I already told my family. You know, it's all it's all of these constant up and down, ups and downs. So it's not just about doing the thing, but having the resilience to do it over the long term. Yeah. Ryan, I wish you thought on networking in terms of branching out. I think your success is limited by your circle. And tell me more about that. And I don't even think it's, I think sometimes we hear that and we automatically say, oh, well, you've got a lot of people around you who are small thinkers or doubters or things like that. They'll hold you back. And that's a part of it. But I think the other side of it is if you are surrounded by people who are content or are smaller thinkers, right? Then you will have constrained thinking as a consequence, right? When I sat down with Kwame last year, just hearing some things that he was working on revealed some things about me, right? I don't see myself the way other people see me. And so I struggle with this. I mean, I'll be in airports and restaurants and other cities all over the world. And people like, oh my gosh, you the ish man. Be like your first. I don't even call myself that. Like what are we doing right now? You know, Brad, like, get you just go together. I was in Portland. I was in Portland a couple of weeks ago. What was this April? Yeah. So a couple of weeks ago, April, I'm in Portland. And I'm just I'm minding my own business. And I walked on the sidewalk and this lady about jump that our skin. She said, oh my gosh, wait a minute, why are you here? You're here, like right here, you're here. I watch you. You're YouTube. The ish man, right? And I was like, you're like, I got a name. Right. But mom of the call me is so I say that I say that to say, I don't see myself the way other people see me. Something Kwame said to me, he says, right, there are the Mount Rushmore thought leaders when it comes to this negotiation and conflict space. And he said, I don't know if you realize it, but you're on it. That was terrifying for me. Right? Because I know everything I don't know. And I still feel like the same version of me before I started all of this. So I think for the person who is sitting back and saying, you know, I don't want to be known. I don't want to be visible. I'm introvert. I don't want to be on social media and things like that. Welcome to the party. I don't either. Right? But I can also tell you that I have a lot of friends in my circle, my network who have been on TV, who are Grammy award winning and Grammy nominated artists. And you know what we talk about? When nobody else is around in journal cameras on, how much they don't like crowds and people? How much stage fright they don't have? How much they don't like to stand out? How regular they are? I was just when I was in Arizona, the gentleman who brought me out there, his, he is family with some very, very successful entertainers who are, their network is in the B, not the M, the B, right? And so we're having this conversation about, you know, their family and they were just like, Hey, they're just regular people. And I think that's the thing is like, how can you build something without losing yourself in the process? And so my whole mantra has always been do it scared and to borrow confidence from your network, which means you need to be around people who are doing things that are bigger than you. So I don't have to have all the confidence in the world. When I look on my Instagram feed and I see Kwame sitting down with Mel Robbins, you better, you better believe I'm irritated for not because I don't want him to win. But because I know what I thought you're good. No, not because I don't want him to win, but because I know that I'm also able to win big two. And I haven't pushed myself to do it. That's the thing, right? The difference between people who make it and the people who don't is not capacity. It's not competency. It's not even opportunity. Man, sometimes it is just ignorance. I had the ignorance to try. I had the ignorance to believe that I could do this. Some of the people at the top of different industries, it is surprising. You'll be like, how did you get here? How are you the person? Right? And it's because nobody else was willing to do it. Everybody else was too aware of themselves. They were too aware of the potential risks, too aware of the consequences. And so they would rather hang on to a mediocre yes or mediocre reality than the grab a hold of some bodacious dream that is not nearly as far as reaches they think. You know, and so for me, man, it started with surrounding myself with other people who were at least willing to push themselves out of their comfort zone. They didn't have to be successful, but they weren't going to woo me and to comfort. That's what I needed. I didn't you didn't have to be rich. I just needed you to have a rich personality, some rich character, some rich confidence and some rich courage. I can build my own momentum off that because if I look to my left and the person I'm runner with is quitting and I look to my right and the person I'm runner with is satisfied. I'm going to do the same. I'm going to measure myself based on the people around me. But when I look to my left and the person who was standing next to me is up here and the person that was over here is up there and they're not running. They're looking back and say, come on, bro. Hey, let me connect you with my. Hey, let me let me get you on the that's that's what you need, right? And so Kwame is not dragging people with him, but he is showing people a pathway. And I'm not dragging people with me, but I'm showing people a pathway. And so a big part of the platform now Kwame was was alluding this earlier. How do I get out of this space of just doing the thing I'm good at and helping other people do the thing they're good at? Right? How do I duplicate this this model of building the thing that other people look to? Right? Because I've built my thing. And I know there are other things out there that need to be built. And it might have nothing to do with conflict or conflict strategy or negotiation and negotiation strategy. It could be it could be anything else. I talked to gentleman the other day's building. He wants to build a food business. All right. I've had a chance to work with McDonald's and Chick-fil-A. I've learned from some of the largest food franchises on the planet. They called me and asked me to teach them strategy. Right? I learned things when I'm in those ecosystems that now I can take to this gentleman who has one restaurant. Right? When I sat down with Piotta and they said, we want to scale from here to here. We're the, you know, we're going to take Italian food and spread it this. I learned things from that group that I can now share with people who haven't started yet. That's what network is. I can't build a restaurant. I don't want to build a restaurant, but I've learned some things from people who have done it. And if you're in my ecosystem, you can learn what I've learned. And you got to have the courage to pick up your, your cross over the speed. And, and, and what Now, that's the power of networking, I think. And it's such an untapped superpower, really. That a lot of people just sleep on a lot of times because people feel like, I wouldn't say people, but I think there's this mentality of some folks who haven't stepped out into that, into those waters, to think that, oh, I have to have this education, or I have to have these resources first, or I have to get these things done before I do that. And I think one of the things that I always tell people is that, I mean, there's no day better than today, right? And just get started because momentum begets more momentum. It's the kinetic law of motion, right? There's just like anything at rest will stay at rest. And you have to get things going. And Ryan, it's funny what you were just saying, because when you were talking about like mentoring people and talking about people and like not necessarily dragging people with you, but saying, hey, have you thought about it like this? This makes me think about the conversation Kwame and I had earlier this year. And so it's funny because Kwame is, he's one of those guys. He's gotten, he's got to this point now where his email goes somewhere else, right? He don't even answer his own emails, right? He didn't even, you'll get that automatic reply. We don't, I don't check these email. We don't wait, Ryan, you can't say. I didn't even sculpt you this podcast. I'm gonna be honest with you, but go ahead. I think it's fine with time. But here's the thing though, here's the thing. I've gotten to the point where I know Kwame and I know that this man will get back at me. And he called me and I'm telling you one of the things that Kwame and I'm giving you a fly was publicly right now. Because I was at a turning point early this year. So I finally got to a point with my business. I think I hit 12,000 followers on LinkedIn and the podcast and I was, thank you, thank you, Ryan. I got into a certain point with my YouTube channel and some other stuff. And I had done some things on YouTube that were kind of jacked up, they kind of missed me up. And I had to start my new channel. And then I was talking about my podcast and kind of the formats. And Kwame asked me a really very simple question when I was thinking about all these different things. And he was like, and Ryan, I want to get your input on this because it was like, he says, why are you doing that? Who told you you had to do any of that? And I said, well, I was watching this video and it said that if I did this, he says, let me show you something. And he said, he took the time to go pull some stats on my own, on my own podcast. This is what this man did. He pulled stats on my own podcast and sent it to me. And he says, look, you were consistently posting. You consistently have hundreds of downloads per episode. You've only been at this for a couple of years. He says, you are already within the top 25% of podcasts just doing what it is you do. So who's telling you this? And I was about guys, you have no idea. If I would have gone down that path, I would have divided my efforts 14 different ways. I was going to have 14, three or four different YouTube channels because of these different niches. And so Ryan, I'm curious, especially having known Kwame, have in your, in your evolution of what you do for ish, ish man. That should be a T-shirt so much. It's just so about one. Have you, what was that key piece of advice or guidance that you got that really kind of help keep you grounded or is it just kind of a self-reflection thing? So I mean, I've got a good friend of mine. I always reflected his conversation. Montel Jordan from, you know, this is how we do it back in the day. We've, we've had a number of conversations over the years. And he's, he's got a testimony about his career transition and trajectory of how, you know, you go from like lights and stages to like almost nobody's showing up to the show, right? And there's been this reinvention and redevelopment of him. And I've always remembered his evolution, right? Because I love Mont's journey. I love his story. And one of the things for me was recognizing that I never wanted to count the faces in the crowd as some metric of success. And I, I'm saying that now because you just said something to me that just like took my breath away. Well, you said, I mean, I got up to like 12,000 on LinkedIn. Bro, do you know, I have a stadium. Back here in our backyard that can only fit 12,000 people. And if you were to sell that place out, you're a headliner. But we get 12,000 followers on social media. And we think we haven't done anything. We think we have, because we see Ryan with his nearly a million. And we feel like that's the thing. 12,000 people are locked in and connected to you. You can't get 12,000 people into room for a keynote unless you are like the demand or the woman. So I think what happens, man, is like we have to start measuring success very differently than numbers. Because the quantitative metrics don't satisfy the brain. We'll look at 12,000 and be like, well, how do I get to 20? What? We get the 20, like, yeah, but how do I get to 50? You know, so and so thought leader, they've got this much and they've got that much. And man, I'm going to tell you, I had a lot of followers when I went to Kwame's place last year. And I can tell you I hadn't made nearly as much as he had at that time. Because we talked about it. Right? So that was one metric that didn't matter. Now you better believe we changed some stuff when we got back and we we doing great right now. Right? But the numbers only tell a portion of the story. And I love what Kwame did because he gave you the story behind the statistics, right? He gave you perspective for what those numbers mean. For me and my business, I'm going to tell you, my analytics are turned off. I don't look at them. I don't get daily downloads. I don't know how many followers I have from platform to platform. Literally the only reason I know how many followers I have right now is because we're putting together a media kit and I needed to know what the numbers were. But prior to this week, I had no idea and people say, oh man, you over 500 something. That was a really okay. That's cool. I don't pay attention to it. It's shut off. I don't get those numbers because for me, it creates a false level of first security and then anxiety because I know me. I'll be the same thing like, oh, I got to get to this number now. I got to get to this number now. The comparison story. So I don't even know if I answered the question you asked, man, but I just wanted to stop in pause for a second so that you can fully take in what I don't have 12,000 followers on LinkedIn. That's crazy. Well, is it though? I don't, I don't maximize it. Because you have the platform. They're two, they're, that's so interesting though, because it shows how different each platform is and how each platform is like, it's own container. Yep. So, so interesting. You got to be at where you're feeder at, man, you have to win where you're at. And this is why for the person says, I'm an introvert. I don't want to do video. Don't do video. Go right. Go right on substat. Right on LinkedIn. Do a podcast, but just your voice. You don't have to do it with your face. If you want to do videos, do videos or create a LinkedIn or a TikTok that only does memes and written content and schematics and drawing. There are so many different ways to put your content out there. It doesn't have to look the way I'm doing it. And also know that views do not equate to dollars and pockets. Right. Followers do not equate to dollars and pockets. At some level, you have to be able to deliver to that audience. And I think that's the gift that Kwame and I have is that the people who call, we're able to give them such value that they call back. You know, when I first started doing this, I was like, wow, I would love for somebody to pay me two grand to come and do a thing. People call now and are like, we only can afford $100,000. And I'm just like, well, you know, if that's all you've got. We'll make it work. At some level, it's just like the numbers don't mean anything anymore. You know, so you just have to, you really, substantively, you have to have something that you can stand behind. Something that you champion. The analytics, the quantum metrics, man, I don't, I think there's only so much value in that. Everything that we do, we create and everything. Life will give you these story fragments. It's our job to tell a good story about it. Right. So it's like, okay, 12,000 followers. Okay, I need to do more. That could be one story. But if I remember correct, I think it's only 10% of people on LinkedIn have more than a thousand followers. That's the story. Right. And so it's all about the way that you package it. Right. And so you niche down as much as you possibly can. Oh, let me tell you a story about my stories. So with the negotiate anything, when I started the podcast, do you, did I, I don't know if I told you how many active negotiation podcasts were there when I started any guesses? No, take a while. What? 100? Okay. Ryan, you want to guess? I have no context whatsoever. 101. 101. I'm going to hit it with the prices right. Okay. One dollar. One dollar. Active. So there were some of that died. There was some that produced. stopped. But active at the time in 2016 when I started the negotiate anything podcast zero none. No active no active negotiation podcasts. Now, later on, of course, more have started. But in 2016, when I started negotiating anything, there was only one which made me the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Oh my. Oh, right. And so that was lizard. I am 27. I've got no other accolades cool that if there's a field of one, I'm number one. I'm also, but I'm not. That is the lawyer talking right there. Number one, who cares that it's only like me and my parents look listed into the podcast. I'm number one. Okay. It's so then you speak it and then you kind of grow into it. But it was factually true at that time, right? And so what I think is you niche down as much as possible so that the so the so the like the competition is you. And so then you're like, I'm and I'm the best in this narrow vertical. And so the thing that's really interesting is that everybody has something in their story that is truly remarkable and unique and something some skill, some experience, and it just comes down to how you package it. And so if you think of yourself as less than then you're going to say, oh, I did some things, but I'm not this. So I shouldn't even even ask. But if you with the right mindset, you look at the rights, the story, the background and everything, it's like, okay, is there I've been in law enforcement, ministry, and I've got these connections. And then I'm a incredible storytell, there's nobody else like Ryan. There's nobody else. And there's nobody else like Jassani. There's nobody else like the person who's listening. And once you start to really embrace the power of that authenticity and uniqueness, now you can create stories that are both rooted in what is true, but also can speak to the people who can either help you or want to work with you. But a lot of times we are doing the people that we could be serving a disservice by playing small. Yeah. So wow, I mean, gentlemen, you have given, I mean, listen, I mean, some somebody's soul got fed to do somebody's soul, definitely got fed their high on nutrients and simple carbohydrates, they are always a complex, which one's a good one? Simple or complex? I like them all, bro. They're all delicious. They're all, yeah, carbon delicious. But so before we close out, I want to want to give you guys a chance to give some clothes and thoughts. So somebody somewhere has listened to this podcast, they see three brothers on here. We're on, we're on, we're on, we got social media stuff going on with we're all public speakers, you know, and and and they're just like they got something in them. There's a spirit. There's something's calling to them saying they should be doing more. What do you tell that person who just needs that nudge to get out and just go out and pursue their passion? I'll start with you, Ryan. Man, do it scared. We're we're building the airplane while we're flying it, right? And I think especially for those of us who are people of color, we are some of the most overqualified under utilized people in in the space. And I think a part of that is conditioning, we've been conditioned to believe we've got to get one more credential, one more certification, one more degree, one more accolade, or or one more word of affirmation from another person. And at some point, you've got to take the reins and realize you've got everything you need to at least start. And the greatest information you're going to get is on the other side of starting. And all of the clarity that you're looking for, all the confirmation you're looking for, all of that should I do this and should it's on the other side of activation, because you can't move a park car. So for anybody out there who's looking to get some traction on something, start, do it for a little while. And then look back and see if you've gotten closer to what your intended goal was. Because sitting around and planning all day is not going to change your life or the people's lives are supposed to be helping. And so you got to start, you got to do it scared, build the airplane where you're fine while you're while you're flying it. That's what I would say. All right, beautiful. I think just staying on brand, take big swings and tell better stories, you know, tell better stories about yourself that are rooted in truth and authenticity, but actually can speak to how great you really are. And like Ryan said, borrowed confidence. So you can borrow the confidence of people around you. So ask your friends, what is it that I do very well? What is it that you think sets me apart? And then you see how other people see you, then you reflect that back out, right? And then just you just keep on building up on that thing. And I think the two other things to recognize compound interest and strategic luck. So with compound interest, we understand, this is an Einstein, what was it Einstein, Einstein quote, he said, the most powerful force in the universe is compound interest, which obviously is telling cheek, but it just shows the power of just constantly putting in a little bit, and then you will get a little bit more in everything that you do. So think about what you're the post that you make for everybody that listens to a podcast sees a post for somebody looking at it is it is their first time seeing you. So every time you put something out there, it is going to build momentum slowly. So the compound interest works. But like Ryan said, you have to do it scared, you have to start because you're not going to build any compound interest. If you are not taking any kind of action. And so that leads us to strategic luck. In your audience, let's say you're trying to sell something, there is going always going to be a percentage of people that will purchase or work with you or follow you. And so there's always going to be a percentage. So the more shots on goal you have, the higher the quantity of successes you will have. So the more you take shots, the more compound interest you will have the more people who are aware of you and the more the luckier you will get. So the big swings get bigger, just because you have availed yourself to compound interest and strategic luck. And at a certain point, it is just math. And you will not move forward if you don't try. So as long as you're moving in the right direction, you're on the right path. Love it. So I guess my two cents would be lead them turkeys alone. And here's what I mean about it, right? So turkeys gaggle, but eagle sorelo and sometimes you got to separate yourself from some of those turkeys to reach your full potential. And let me clarify that just a little bit because I don't want people to think that, oh, I got to leave my friends alone and I got to do all these things and I got to become a different person to be successful. That's not what I'm saying. But as Ryan and Kwame both just said talked about a little while ago about you are the sum of your circle, right? And your circle of friends really helps you know, it's a big indicator where you may end up in. I think Harvard Business Review came out with an article that says you tend to be the sum of your five closest colleagues. And because those those are influences, if you hang around a bunch of people who eat poorly and don't take care of themselves and party all night, chances are you have some are all of those habits. And you want to surround yourself with people who are ambitious. They don't have to have the same goals and aspirations, but they are trying to achieve something greater because that will motivate you to number one, see what's possible, which is why I hang around these gentlemen. They let they they give you a good picture of what good looks like. But at the same time, they also inspire and just know that sometimes relationships have seasons. There are times where you do have to say, you know what, you're I just I have to move on because I can no longer associate or do those kinds of activities. Maybe you got a bunch of single friends and you're married with kids, right? Marifos can do with single folks do. I don't care what talk tells you. But but at the same time, it's one of those things where you have to navigate where you're where you're flying towards. So I say sometimes you just got to really really good because that was one thing with me. I hung around. I have a lot of really great friends and they're good people. But when it comes to my professional network, I really if I wanted to achieve greater things or or just not live, you know, live status quo, I had to insert people in my in my circle that a will kind of motivate me because then I like people I got people like Kwame saying, where yet, I ain't seen a podcast episode in three or four weeks was okay, he's following up. It's like I have a personal trainer. So I think I think it's important to have people in your circle that do that. And if you don't have those, look Kwame reached out to Mill Robbins, right? And I mean, and if you had not checked out that episode, oh my God, it was a really great episode. He can have it. You should you should go find it. But find those people poor find those folks. And honestly Kwame is really good. You know, I'm really good. Right? Reach out ping ping is on social media. It might take a minute, but we'll get back. It takes a lot for Kwame. But no, but he but he will. But there are people out there that will help you. You're not in this alone because all of us had to start everybody had to take that first step. I don't care whether you're talking about myself, Ryan Kwame, Oprah, Mill Robbins, Simon Sinek, everybody started with that first step and that first action. And that's usually the hardest one. So that would be my two cents. Guys, I know you're busy. And again, I want to be respectful of your time. So first of all, I want to say thank you for for your time. And that was your time by sharing your wisdom and your history because again somebody got fed today and I think we might have helped generate the next generation of influencers or content creators or whatever whatever their goals is I want to thank you so real quick if they wanted to catch up with you guys or if they want to follow you or if you guys are speaking somewhere Ryan where can folks find you over the next few months where you where you going to be? Yeah so you can find me at the American Negotiation Institute. No man, man we're obviously you can find us anywhere online conflict issues social media or our website and things like that we are going to be we're working to expand some things and so I would say keep your eyes open for what's coming we want to be able to serve people in a new way and we're having to make some internal pivots and I'm really excited about what that's going to look like but in the meantime if people just want to stretch their conflict competency a little bit and not have to pay a dime for it we post every single day on social media conflict dish and help you get your age together come find us man. A few years ago I realized that I was ruining my most important meetings I would sit down with visionaries partners and high stakes builders but instead of actually listening to them and being present looking them in the eye and trying to catch the subtle nuances of what they were actually saying I was sitting there staring at my screen frantically typing trying to capture every single word so I wouldn't forget it later I was so busy documenting the moment that I completely stopped being present in it and when you're trying to pull off massive goals you cannot afford to have your attention split and that's why I started using granola AI it's an AI notepad built to augment how you actually work it runs seamlessly in the background and transcribes the meeting directly from your devices audio there's no automated user joining the call or distracting your clients it just handles the heavy lifting of capturing the dialogue so you can finally lean in listen deeply and steer the conversation so all you need to do during the meeting is just jot down a few of the bullet points that matter to you but the moment the meeting ends granola AI blends your personal insights with the transcription to give you a sharp highly structured summary of your action items it keeps your mind entirely free to focus on the big picture if you want to stop dividing your attention and start executing at a higher level go to granola dot AI slash Kwame to try it out that's granola dot AI slash Kwame if you look at how modern brands are built the old playbook of uploading a flat photo to a static website and hoping for the best is dying the future belongs to the builders who understand human connection and right now there is one platform that is completely rewriting the rules of commerce and that is what not what not is the largest dedicated live shopping platform in the country it covers everything from luxury fashion and beauty to electronics and collectibles and what makes it brilliant is the sheer velocity of the business model sellers on what not are moving more inventory in a single live show than most traditional online storefronts move in an entire month simply because they are leveraging live connection and community buyers are spending over an hour a day in the app engaging with passionate professionals to discover unbeatable deals and shop name brands without the retail prices and this isn't just a casual digital storefront it is a massive wealth builder the number of sellers making over one million dollars a year on what not has literally doubled it provides a real thriving path for anyone looking to scale an audience and turn what they love into a high growth business if you are serious about taking a big swing with your brand what not is the vehicle that can get you there search what not w h a t and o t on the app store downloaded and you can start selling right away absolutely Kwame where are you going to be brother but yeah the podcast and follow me on all the socials I'm at Kwame negotiates and on all of those things and then linked in of course we have courses I don't know if I told you all this but I have a Kwame AI a Kwame coach so like all of my thought leadership into it cloned my voice everything and it's actually really good I use it when I'm when I'm creating content and I want to just stay in a flow state I'm like what do I think about this oh right yes there it is what would I say about this and every time I do it I'm like that is what I'd say it's really funny I remember Whitney used it one time and she would she was asking it questions that where I have like a unique perspective on it and to see whether or not it would get it right and it was she was very impressed it's very good so I like it because coaching isn't scalable I love coaching but I just can't do it as much as I want so we created that AI and we're creating some courses too I mean we we had those courses would not have we still have those courses will LinkedIn learning over of 51 courses is going to be later this summer and 2.3 million people have gone through that we also have the LinkedIn certificate the negotiations certificate we part we negotiated to deal with LinkedIn to create the only negotiations certificate on the platform so we have 55,000 folks globally who have been certified through that so you can check that out and then I was like damn I'm making all this money for LinkedIn let me make my own courses too okay we launched a course last year and it's been phenomenal it's been really really good you got to keep that keep that in house for sure yeah man so we're gonna so we'll talk offline about course marketing so I could learn a little bit you see how this works just how do this is how it works look at it look at so yeah man those those are the places you can find me Kwame Christian dot com as well we're pretty easy to find out yeah excellent excellent and so and if folks are running to me I will actually be if you're if you're across the pond I will and Jolio lent London like like my London as so hello I'm at that ball ball ball ball ball ball ball ball go I'm gonna kick you out with these little I don't know I just lost every UK's I've ever had done it yeah so I will actually be in London in 2 weeks after the Spinnaker people maritime conference I'll be speaking about generating the future of future generation of talent how to how to how to hone that and then I will also be at the Sherman Corsair National Conference speaking there in good old Orlando Florida June the week of June 12th and then always you guys can find me on LinkedIn under my friend in HR my friend HR podcast which is on now on YouTube as well as Spotify Apple wherever you get your podcast fixed from and then to describe to our newsletter it has some really cool stuff we have a new article series got to happen to my inner 80s nerd where I take a 80s 80s concepts and applied leadership my most recent article dived into the breakfast club where they had the five different types of students and it talks about not managing people to stereotypes not putting people into boxes and actually Kwame you'd appreciate the one I did before which was about coming to America so the title of that one was there was uh uh he was royalty but you probably would have phone screened him anyway um yeah and and it talked about how they had this great talent but McDowell had a mop in the floors and how many Prince of Kings does every organization have working for them so uh so so check that stuff out is actually really cool stuff if I do say so myself new article comes out on Monday back to the future I'll let you guys read the figure out with with with that concept's gonna be about but yeah you can find me there um we ain't hard to find so but anyway but folks as always you know be well not just to others but also to yourself and as we say on my friend in HR I remember that your life is not meant to support your job your job is meant to support your life until next time my friends oh love it that was so good that was great man look that That was awesome.