How to Build a 44-Year Recruitment Career on Cadence, Not Luck, with Rich Bradley

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I always clean up what my dog did, right? There's times that people aren't looking. I could leave it, but the right thing to do is to pick up from what the dog did, right? It's doing those things when you're not being watched, just like you're being watched. If you treat people right and you work on building good relationships with people, you're going to have a, as I said, a long-term business. During his 44-year career in Recruiting, Rich Bradley has built $28 million. But in his first seven months, he didn't make a single placement and he came very close to giving up. I sucked in the beginning. I mean, I, six months went blank. No placements, nothing. This manager just kept sticking with me. He kept trying, kept trying, and I just, I just wasn't getting it. He actually told his boss that he was quitting. He put his stuff in a cardboard box and was almost out the door. Then he heard his colleagues talking about him behind his back. And what they said caused him to have a complete change of heart. I did the proverbial walk. I went to my desk and got stuff, put it in a box, and I like go to walk out. And I hear some of the not nice comments that these people were sitting there saying. He turned around and went back to his desk. I turned around and I walked back to my desk, put the box on my desk, and I said, "I see you guys on Monday." Within one week, he'd made two placements, and that was the moment when everything clicked. I had nothing in the works. I'd know send out it's going on. No job or there's nothing. By Friday, I had made two placements. From then on, I was like, "Oh, I get it. If you commit, you know, you're, you're all in." This is a fun business. I ended up making like 14 placements in those September through December. And I was like, "Oh, okay, I'm hooked. I like this. This is fun." To find out what he overheard and why it had such a profound impact on him, keep listening. Welcome to the Resilient Recruiter Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Whitby, and my guest today is Rich Bradley. Rich is the founder of Team Bradley, and he's a Pinnacle Society member for nearly 30 years. What were you doing 30 years ago? I hadn't even begun my recruitment journey. Rich was already a top biller and being inducted into the Pinnacle Society. Rich believes success comes down to cadence and commitment, not talent or luck. He also breaks down the daily habits and business development techniques behind four decades of consistent buildings. But most importantly, this episode is about the psychology of success. Rich is very candid. He does not hold back. He shares some extremely painful experiences and how they drove him to achieve extraordinary results. Hi, Rich. Great to see you again. Hey, Mark. Nice to be here. I think last time we caught up was at the Pinnacle Society conference in. were you in Atlanta? Well, I think I was. Or, I mean, I definitely remember sitting beside you at lunch in Savannah, Georgia. I think we've met a couple of times, right? You bet. Definitely Savannah. Yeah. Some of our meetings kind of blurred together. Where were we when we had these conversations? So. Yeah, exactly. They sort of melt together. How long have you been a Pinnacle member? I started in Pinnacle in '97. So I'd been in the business for about 15 years because I started in '82, learned about Pinnacle, worked hard to get in and it's been in since '97. So it's been. Wow. It must be one of the longest standing members. Yeah, Diana has been their longer, like, Goldman. Yeah. Mike's been on the show before. Maybe a couple others, but yeah, I guess I'm getting to be the longer than the tooth. Where I used to be the baby. Yeah, that's funny. It's such a great gang of people really enjoy every time I get to hang out with you guys at Pinnacle. So listen, this is maybe a curveball question, Rich. What do I need to know about you kind of growing up that would help me understand who you are today and your business journey? Wow. That is a curveball question. Nice. Nice. Throw that at me right in the beginning. I actually did not have a great childhood. I had abusive alcoholic parents that I ran away from at, like, about 15 and continued high school. I was fortunate enough. I went to a church and they found somebody to take me in. So I finished high school and then I just had a million jobs between that and when I started in the recruiting world. So I learned a lot of different things. I learned things I didn't like. Things I wasn't good at. So it was definitely a nomadic life for a long time. I did not know that story, Rich. What if any impact, do you think that those early experiences have had on your success in business or in life? John who was my stepfather at the time, as I said, he was abusive and an alcoholic. So you saw I'd see the signs and I'd know, I'm in trouble today. But he was just a very mean man and words that for the longest time still rang in my head is you're going to amount to nothing. And there's some swear words in there as well. But I mean, it was just a constant voice that I heard in my head for years. And so that would drive me. And I would have, you know, I would do really, really well. And then that voice would kick in and then I would kind of sink for a while. And said, took a long time for me to just get over that. So you're hitting me with a hard question right in the beginning. Yeah, I didn't. I never know what you're going to get sometimes for the ask these questions. So thank you for for sharing that. And wow, I'm blown away that you you went through that is horrendous. But so you said you had about hundreds of jobs. Any that kind of eventually steered like how did you end up in recruiting and any of those jobs help you do think? I think they almost helped. As I say, they showed me kind of things. Maybe I was good at it or things that I was not good at. I mean, I worked everywhere from Duncan Donuts to an antique store dusting that all the all the different pieces, mowing lawns, delivering newspapers, selling newspapers, you know, the guy who would stand at the grocery store and hand you a paper and say, Hey, now do you want a subscription? Now I gave you a free newspaper. Just all sorts of different types of positions. I ended up getting a role as a manager at a restaurant, which was an interesting way that I ended up getting the job. But I walked in and was managing the restaurant 10 minutes later. The guy said, I walked in and he's basically handing me the keys and said, okay, I'm out. And I had no clue how to make the food nothing. He just wanted out and he just walked out. That's pretty bizarre. It was it was it was it was a strength. I mean, I don't want to take the you know, audiences. This isn't really kind of pertinent of recruiting, but it was the weirdest thing actually. The lady at the travel agency was in a mall travel agency came over to get a drink and who were you? I'm like a toddler and she was where's Bob? I'm like, am he his keys and he left and she's like, oh my god, well, I don't get busy till the afternoon and I'll help you because I'm over here all the time. So she's the one that actually showed me some of the different things. And then a part-time person showed up in the afternoon. Who were you? I went through the story again so then she He showed me how to open the safe and how to deposit money into the bank. So I ran the place for several weeks. This guy walks in a couple weeks later and was like, "Who the heck are you?" Although he's a different word. And I tell him in the story and he's like, "Like hell, this is my star." And so he was like, "Where's my money? Where's this? And where's that?" And I told him, "I've done ordering of supplies. I'll show them all the bank proceeds." And he was like, "Hi, well, I guess you're doing a good job. I guess we need to put you on the payroll." I'm like, "I already took care of that." What? Oh, I got it. This is what I did. He goes, "Well, how much we paying you?" And I told him in the number and he goes, "I'm not going to pay a newbie that." And I'm like, "Well, that's what the other guy was making." And he goes, "All right, fine." So it was the strangest thing ever. So that is probably the worst, in the deep end story I've ever heard. I thought recruiting was like a sink or swim. That was literally like you were absolutely on your own. So let's, here, look, let me pull out a couple of common themes, Rich. First of all, you're obviously working hard from a young age. And number two is like, you weren't afraid of doing difficult things. That's it. I can't think of a bigger challenge as a young person than figuring out how to manage a restaurant without any, like if you can do that, then you can do pretty much anything, right? So how did you get into the business? Well, the restaurant chain was owned by 7/11 and so self-incorporation. And I was there for three years and just one day, a guy that I told you walked in, he was the general manager, said, "Hey, you got bad news. We've been attacked right a long enough. We're at their close in the chain." And I'm like, well, now what the heck am I going to do? 'Cause all these positions that I had had were stumbled into. I mean, I didn't ever interview. I didn't do anything, right? And I remembered that there was this guy that had come in one day and it said, "Oh my gosh, hey, you're really good at what you're doing. If you're ever looking for a job, give me a call." Okay, I need a job and I had a little baby at the time, six month old baby. And so I called him up and went over to the place and interviewed. I got interviewed by seven or eight different managers and all of them took a pass, said, "Yeah, no, not this guy." And ended up lucking out that there was one other manager that interviewed me. And he basically just wanted to show all the rest of them that they were wrong. So he ended up hiring me. And that's how he ended up in the business. So. - Wow. So wait a second. You were recruited essentially by a customer at the restaurant, someone who you served who thought you were good at what you did and invited you to talk to him if you were looking for a new job. He was the owner of the place and I asked him later, I'm like, "Why did you even think I was going to be good at this?" And I don't know if you've been in restaurants where people are trying to upsell you. I mean, I basically, I'll just take a pizza and a small drink and I'm like, "Well, for 10 cents more, you get a large drink, right?" And all that kind of stuff. And he goes, "I just watched you and you, everybody, you just kept doing that with each person." And those 10 cents add up, right? And I'm like, "Well, yeah, bottom line, I had to make sure I beat last year's number, those types of things and one would always be the top store in the chain. There was only six of them, so I only had to beat five others." But that was kind of my stick, if you will, back then. So. - That's hilarious. So, I mean, so message for any listeners who are owners and always, 'cause one of the biggest challenges I hear from owners is, ironically, it's hard to get good people, right? For your own team. And like, start being aware of people you encounter. Someone cool calls you, are they any good? Server in a restaurant. Like, be open-minded as to where you might find talent because what's more important than experience is actually attitude, mindset, work ethic, resilience, drive, that kind of stuff, which, you can find talent said people anywhere. And to go from a server in a restaurant to recruiting job, that's like, that's a life-changing opportunity, right? So that's-- - And there was a lot of hours. I mean, that was, just, it was a mall chain store basically. And we couldn't afford an assistant manager. So I was there pretty much from open to close. I had had some high school kids that worked in the afternoon where I could take a few hours break if need be, deal with family and whatnot. But I mean, open the store, the mall opened at 8. I had to be there at 7, 'cause of all the people who work there to get their orders and whatnot or the mall closed at 9. And you were there till 10 at least. So it was long hours, Monday through Friday, Saturday Sunday, the whole 9 year. So it was a lot of hours. So in my mind, and we'll get to this later a bit, one of the things for me was I was used to working a million hours. So I didn't-- I don't-- I still-- to this day, don't think of this as, oh, it's a Monday through Friday job and you end at 5. And, you know, take the weekends off. I mean, I just work. I mean, I have some other things. Obviously, family and those types of things. But I take my breaks when I need to. And then I come back and I sit down and do work. So-- All right. We'll definitely come back to talking about the work, the hours, that kind of stuff. One thing your story made me think of is, so my daughter is an assistant manager at a pub and hotel chain here in the UK. And she is very competitive. And she likes to be at the top of the sales leaderboard for upsells and, you know, how much, you know, what your-- your taking's work for the shift and all that kind of stuff. Fighting with your career right there. There you go. There you go. I had a great success as I was hiring people. I would go to malls and shop. You know, just want-- window shop, if you will. But I mean, go and find people from that standpoint. I had really good success with people in malls. You know, enterprise rental car place. They have a really good program. And then I also, as I was looking for people, I really looked for people that, like in college, had dual, both their schooling and some kind of sport. Those people really are good at discipline. They're really good at knowing, hey, I got two different jobs, basically kind of a thing in managing it. So I learned just from trial and error, if you will, what would work and what wouldn't work with people from that standpoint. So it finished the story, though, as I get hired, I sucked in the beginning. I mean, I-- six months went blank. And this manager just kept sticking with me. Just a great guy. He was my mentor and ended up becoming my partner later on. And really riddling my best friend. But he kept trying, kept trying. And I just wasn't getting it. I would say the biggest reason that I wasn't doing well was when I took this job, I didn't think this was the career for me. I was like, OK, well, I'll take this job. But I'm still going to look for some kind of restaurant manager job. That's what I knew. That's what I felt like I was able to do. So I was still throwing my resume out there, looking for a restaurant manager job. I was trying to go to night school to try to work on a degree. I was selling top of where. I don't know if you've heard-- I've known it was a concept. Yeah. Like parties and stuff for us. I was doing parties in the nights and parties in the weekends. Because as I said, I had a little six-month-old baby. I ended up being a year. By the time I finally started doing well. But we needed to take the money. We needed baby food. We needed stuff like that. So I was selling top of where. And so I was trying to do this job. Well, I finally got an offer at a donut shop. At the time, it was good money. It was nearly $30,000, which back in '82 was a lot of money. I go in. I tell Jim, hey, I got an offer. I'm going to leave. Probably good news for you, right? Because I knew I had been a waste of time from that standpoint at that point. And he wouldn't let me quit. He was like, no, this was a fry. And he said, no, you think about it over the weekend. Let me know on Monday. If you really want to leave, I'm not going to stop you. But man, if you would just ever focus and do this job, you would just be really good at it. I'm like, oh, geez, Jim, you're just making this so hard on me. So I did the proverbial walk. I went to my desk and got stuff put it in a box. And I like go to walk out. And there was our island of people. You don't know if people-- people still do it that way, but you know, there was eight deaths all kind of put together. And I walk around the corner to go out the door. And I hear some of the not nice comments that these people were sitting there saying, "Oh, my God, I think I've been finally rid of that guy. What a waste." And some other choice words. And I just heard my dad's voice. You're never going to mount to anything. You're horrible, blah, blah, blah. And I just pissed me off. And I turned around and I walked back to my desk, put the box on my desk and I said, "I see you guys on Monday." And they were all like, "Oh shit, what just happened?" Kind of a thing. That is awesome. And so I left. I turned down the offer. I'm like, "Okay, I don't know. I forget the story of Desi or whoever it was, that you know, burn the boats kind of a thing." Turned down the offer. Coincidentally, the school had just ended that time period. It was about time to sign up for the next one. I said, "All right, I'm not going to do any more classes." I called my manager of the Tupperware Manager place and said, "Here's all my shows, book that I have booked. I'm out. I came to work on Monday." And I'm like, "All right. I'm ready." And Jim looks at me and he goes, "What are you doing here?" I'm like, "I'm going to work." He goes, "You quit." I'm like, "I told him what I had done." He goes, "All right, I'll give you a little bit of time, but I don't know if anything's going to change." I found it later. He was messing with me, right? Just to make me really commit. But I sat down. This is a Monday. I'd send out scone on, no job or there's nothing. Holy smokes in two weeks. In one week you got two. One week, two placements. Wow. Now back then they were little baby ones, right? Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. One was like $1,300 fee and one was like $1,600. I mean, they were baby, baby fees. But from then on, I was like, "Oh, I get it. If you commit, you're all in. This is a fun business." That was September. I started in February. September. How old were you at this point, Rich? I started in '82. 22. 22. Okay. I was 23 when I started recruiting. Similar. Similar. I ended up making like 14 placements in those September through December time period. I like this." Listen, having a chat GBT license for your team is great, but it is not enough. Chat GBT requires you to stop what you're doing, switch windows, copy information, and ask you to do something. AI agents are different. They're built into your workflow and they take action automatically. CruderFlow is an AI first, ATS, and CRM with built-in AI agents working for you around the clock. They're encoding agent structures or data. Their job change alert agent monitors your database for opportunities. They're not taking agent captures conversations and updates your CRM. This isn't about working harder. It's about letting AI handle the busy work so you can focus on relationships. To see it in action, go to recruitmentcoach.com/recurterflow. If you've noticed your LinkedIn impressions declining in 2025 or 26, here's why. 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If you want content that's aligned with how LinkedIn actually works today, book a free video content strategy call at recumbincote.com/video. This is fun. Recording is that one of those jobs where it can either be the best job in the world when you're doing well or it's the worst job ever if you're not doing well, right? It's funny how just doing well, feeling successful, making money suddenly, it feels like, "Hey, this job is awesome." So commitment obviously, there was a switch that got flicked when you were 100% committed. But then, how do you go from there, almost taking a job as an manager of a donut shop to becoming a pinnacle society member and a top biller? Well, I would say I had to learn my superpower, if you will, right? What am I really good at? I'm really good at cadence, having this is how you do it every day. I say this to people and I believe it in my brain. I'm not really good at any one thing in this business. I don't like negotiating. I don't like any kind of conflict, which is why I was never really a good manager. There's just a whole bunch of things. I'm just not that good at all these pieces, right? When you put them all together and you have a cadence and you have certain things that you really believe in, I'm a huge proponent of the golden rule, all about relationship building and then the cadence. Those are probably my three things that I would hang my hat on if you will. You put those together and it makes a 44 year career, right? I mean, that's 24 years. Wow, that's crazy. I've heard you say success is cadence, not luck. What? Can you explain what you read about me here? Of course, we do our research, Rich. This is a professional show. Talking about the daily habits, the kids, when you say cadence, what are you talking about what does that look like? It's little things and big things. Each month, I have certain things that I have to do to start the month. Like send an email out to all the people that have said that they were actively looking six months ago as an example. Placed people, I keep tabs with them. Even though I've placed them two, three, four years ago, I keep tabs with a certain group of place people on their, typically on their anniversary each month. I should use you typically, I mean on their anniversary month from that standpoint. And then there's the daily routines. I mean, I write a planner every day. I mean, I just, I still have to write it down. One of the things, who the people I'm going to call each day on the candidate side, on the client side, on the, you know, putting together side, you know, this person that I didn't interview yesterday and what that. I still write it down. Funny story on that one is my life was pregnant and I'd gone home that day. I forgot to bring my planner with me. I never do that, but I forgot to bring it home. The water breaks in a little tonight. I'm like, oh crap, I don't have my planner. I'm not going to do that. That's the first thought. That's my planner. So we get to the hospital. The hospital was 10 minutes away from my office at the time. The doctor's like, it's going to be a long night. You're not, you're nowhere close. It's going to be a while. Oh, is that mean I have time to run to the office and get my planner and come back? He says, yes, she says no. I do some negotiating on that one, but I ran over, got it and came back. And then that way I was in my brain. I at least I knew I was ready for the next day if there was any calls that I had to do from that standpoint. But I was there for the baby. I was there for the whole thing. It was definitely one of those for the longest time. I was in deep water on that one, but we all survived. So tell me about your planner. Is it one you've created for yourself or is it a like what you bought? I've had this. I've had this planner here. I mean, it's right here. I've had this planner for nearly 40 years. So it looks like a ring binder within search, right? Yeah. And I did an Excel spreadsheet just where I wanted all the boxes. And. And now I just copy it, you know, and there's usually 20 to 30 pages in there so I can put notes in and you designed the layout yourself and then you print it out. Nothing fancy. I mean, really client costs, candidate costs, um, interview, interview things. I mean, it's, it's nothing fancy. It's, it's just, I couldn't find one anywhere that I liked. Everybody had their own little. Oh, let's talk about, let's talk about in interspection today or let's talk about this or no, I don't need that. I just need my calls, right? Kind of a thing. So, um, and I use an applicant tracking software as well. We use job diva now. We used to use wind search and told Microsoft had their, you know, final line of we're not going to play with anybody unless you have this, you know, criteria. So we switched to job diva. But I write these and every day, you know, for, for who I'm going to call. And the other day, well, about two weeks ago, job diva went down for some reason, you know, and I still was calling, making my calls, because I'm writing out the phone numbers and all that. Every day. Okay. Now let's talk about this for a sec. How long does that process take? They're just planning thinking about who do I need to call? What it's about? Here's the number. Um, I do, I have to do at the end of the day. I can never do it in the morning, because in for some reason in my head, I'm not in charge of the day. Um, so I mean, I have, I have my planner and I just sit down and I start working on my, whatever's on my planner for that day. But to end of the day, what time is that? Depends on the day. Last night, it was at nine thirty. Okay. Um, you know, how long, like how many minutes does it take to write at your plan? I, I usually anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour. Okay. Yeah. So this is like serious planning time, but that's going to like maximize your productivity the next day, right? So it's, um, have you ever not done it and how did that feel? Rarely, um, that I don't do it. Um, and the next day is usually, like, I feel like I'm running in quick sand. I just never feel like I get, I'm going to get caught back up, um, kind of those things. So if this is like one of those things, I've had a couple of people on the podcast to have a similar process to you, rich, um, but I feel like a lot of recruiters these days just kind of wing it. Like they kind of just I could never do that. Our day to day, they're kind of, they're kind of winging it, which, um, I don't know how you can maximize your productivity if you're, if you don't have a plan. So tell me, like, I just really want to understand. So you've got clients you need to call, you've got candidates you need to call. Are there any other sections or boxes in that planner? Um, sometimes there's personal calls that I have to, you know, call a doctor, you know, I'm old and I like have a lot of doctors calls to do. Um, um, it just depends where they are in the process, right? If it's an interview happened, okay, follow up with the client, follow up with the candidate. Um, um, hey, make sure that you get the thank you note over to somebody, you know, or, or get references done. So there's references on, on there are people I have to reach out to. Just it's all the things that we do, right? I mean, in, in, in, pursuit to make placements. So you don't have like top three objectives for the day or any like these are my NPC. This is my NPC for the day or this is the number one job I need to recruit on or like, is there any other. Um, things to make help you focus on the right things. It depends on what the day is, of course, I mean, there's certain days where it's, hey, this person's a, um, had their interview yesterday, the client wants references, my day is all about references. So those are the top calls that day. Um, this company just said we need XYZ person. Okay, I'm, I'm going to attack finding somebody for that job. Um, I, I don't do MC NPC calls. Um, I, I know you probably don't want that said and Danny definitely doesn't want that that said. No, that's, I want to know your process rich, not what other people do. I know, but it's not the, it's not the, um, the preferred way. I, I early on in my career had a client that I made a placement with. And he, it was his old school. This is early, you know, early 80s. Um, and he, my person started, name, the guy called, he was the president, basically, of the, of the organization. He calls and goes, come on in and, you know, I'll get you give you your check. I'm like, okay. So I go over there, sit down at his desk, you know, after a quick pleasantries. And he had this big old style checkbook. I don't know if you've ever seen those, you're, you're relatively young, but big old style checkbook. And he starts writing and he looks up at me and he goes, you know, you're a, I don't know how PC you went to show. So he called me a name. And I'm like, what? I'm like, I'm shocked. I'm hurt. Right. I'm like, what the heck? Why are you saying that? I got you a really good person. Why, why are you saying that? He goes, you just started asking me the right question. I'm like, the right question. He goes, yeah, look at this book. Like, it's your checkbook. He goes, what's in it? I go, checks. He goes, how many? I go, it looks like a lot. He goes, I'm writing you one. Wouldn't you like more of them? I'm like, we have course, right? Oh, okay. So the question, what other jobs do you need? Or you need to hold right to finally like after several promptings, it hit me. He goes, son, you've got to learn. We write you the checks. Just ask, what do you need? We'll, we'll write you the check. So from then on, I realized my customer, my, my business is going to be the client who has those checks. And so I fill jobs. I don't place applicants. I fill jobs. Now a really good friend of mine, who was it the company that I was with? He is the exact opposite. He placed applicants. He could have 12 jobs open that the other rest of the team had open. Nope. I don't want everybody's working on those. I have this really good candidate and I'm going to go find them a job. And that's what he did. And we both were really good at what we did. And we would argue with each other all the time. Our way was better. But we won't pay a lot of money. So, so there's tons of ways to do this business. That's true. But you just be dedicated to go do the business. All right. I love that story. So let's circle back to the cadence because I want to make sure. So I understand the daily planning is one is part of that cadence. Is there anything else that's like a daily discipline that or a habit that you feel has been instrumental to your success rich. I just said live by the golden rule. I mean, that's just just it. People sit there and talk to me. It's like, all right. I have a dog. I always clean up what my dog did. Right. I could leave it. But the right thing to do is to pick up from what the dog did, right. Kind of a thing. So it's doing those things when you're not being watched. And you know, just like you're being watched kind of a thing. And that took me a while to learn that one. But I'll tell you if you treat people right and you work on building good relationships with people. You're never as I said a long term business. So. Exactly. I mean, every big pillar I've ever. Coached, interviewed, worked alongside has always had a very long term perspective rather than a short term. How much can I, you know, Get in the short term. They've always had a long longer term time horizon, which does shift the way that you view people and and and and treat people. Are there any other activities that would be like daily or weekly activities for you rich? Well, to say within the cadence, I mean, just cons. I mean, I utilize technology. Emails. I used to before all the email stuff, you know, I mean, I would use Newsletters that I would put together that I would put on the photo, photocopier right and mail them out to mail them out. Yeah. You know, but that was a, that was a thing that I did very regularly. Glad I don't have to do that anymore. But do you still have, do you have an email newsletter? You know, that is actually something that I have stopped doing as regularly as I used to do. Because I just kept finding if you sent things out, then you ended up on spam lists, right? Because the, the systems, not the people, but the systems thought that you're spamming people. So, I do much more targeted emails these days from that state. I would, I think you should go back to it, Rich, actually. It depends. to use the right platforms and set it up, the infrastructure in such a way that it doesn't affect your sender reputation of your primary domain. The other thing you can do is a LinkedIn newsletter. That's another way to get your content out there. Yeah, I've been starting to try to do that more regularly from a blogging or whatever call or write newsletter blogging, but things out on LinkedIn. So, calling and emailing, how many calls, how many emails per day per week? Do you feel like, if I continue at this pace, things are going to happen. I used to really focus on the number of calls, but it doesn't matter how many calls you make, it's how many you connect with. Exactly. Now it's more, how much time did I actually spend physically talking with people? I shoot for three to four hours a day on that. The rest of the time is research. I mean, you can get sucked down the rabbit holes and what not these days, obviously, from that standpoint. So, I just have a program that just keeps tabs of how much physical time was on the phone and I look at that. And if I'm under the three, I'm like, "Oop, didn't do the job that I needed to do yesterday." And if I'm at least over that, then, "Okay, I'm on the right path from that standpoint." So, I used to be really micro focused on that stuff, but I'm less concerned with that these days. It's just me and my wife kind of working together at this point. And I'm 67. I'm not striving to be, I wouldn't be striving to be impinical at this point. I still do enough that would qualify me, but I don't need to do a million dollar years anymore. I don't need to do to beat anybody. I doesn't matter to me anymore. You doing everything left to prove you're just like doing it? Because why wouldn't you? You're good at it. You enjoy it. I love doing it. I truly love doing this. I like helping the clients. I look helping the candidates. What am I gonna also do? I'm gonna sit on the sofa and watch Netflix all day, right? And right now, I've got my monies and savings and stocks and all that fun stuff. But I don't want to touch it now. So why don't I just keep making placements now so that I enjoy our trips? And we're going to Alaska in a couple of months and we're going to British Isles, you know, early next year. So, I mean, I want to be able to afford those kind of trips and not tap into the retirement period. 100%. The longer we can let that compound the better, right? Yeah. Okay. Awesome. So, you mentioned references. Is that one of your core business development strategies or why do you concentrate so much on references? References can give you so many things. One will help in the sales process, if you will. I mean, hey, look, this is what these people have had to say about this candidate. But you don't get to meet new people. You're, you're, you know, I don't make it blatant that, oh, hey, I'm only talking to you because I want to get something out of it for the future. But again, if you, if all you're worrying about is building relationships with people, business will come from that standpoint. So it's talked to enough people and good things will happen. That's a good philosophy. Talk to enough people. Good things will happen. So how many reference checks are you doing in a typical week? Do you think wow, I don't even know anymore. As I say, I really, I used to keep such detailed numbers of how many calls did I make and which calls were they and how many records and how many referrals and like, I shoot these days for at least two places once a month, figures, it takes two to six people to get two place once a month. So I'm doing references on, let's say on average four, four times three, so probably 12 references a month from that standpoint. So that makes sense. So I may have told you. You're, you're doing references for the candidates that you're submitting. I, I typically do it. If a client has liked the person, in the first place, likes the client, the first interview. Yeah, I used to do it a lot sooner, but I've gotten, I guess one of my talents isn't the right word, but I'm really good at reading people. I can tell if somebody's giving me a LAN a horse. I feel all. And so I wean those out myself at this point. I do the same on the client side. I mean, if I, I won't work with a company that I don't think I would want to work for. If I don't like the boss, I don't care what color your money is. I'm going to move on to somebody else who I, who I like them, right? I don't drink. I don't smoke. Why would I help companies that make those kind of products? Why would I do that? Right? So I mean, I have certain companies that I just won't work with. I used to have craft as a client, age as an age ago. In their dairy and in a couple of the other areas that I, I placed people at. They got bought by, am I just blanked on the cigarette company at the bottom, but they got bought by a cigarette company. I said, I don't work with craft anymore. It's like I just, why would I help those kind of companies produce their products that they, that they're going to hurt people? So, anyway, that's just, I like it. It's me. I, I can respect that. What? So, I just want to give people a little more on the, the references because I feel like again, this is something that a lot of cruders don't do anymore. And younger cruders don't even know about this tactics. So obviously, it's good. It's a best practice anyway because then you're reassuring yourself that the person is who they say they are and that they're, you know, going to probably the company's going to check references sooner later anyway. So you're kind of just getting ahead of that process and making sure that, you know, everyone is going to check out. So you're ultimately delivering a better service to the client. But number two, as you say it, it is an excellent way of meeting new people, potential clients, potential candidates or referral sources. You know, you never know where those conversations might lead, right? One of the reasons that people tell me this is kind of an excuse or an objection is, oh, Mark, people don't give references anymore because they're worried about the legal implication of saying something about a former employee. And so, you know, you can't, you can't use that technique anymore. I'm like, really? Totally. Totally false. Now, I will say there are definitely people that are going to be listed that'll say, I really can't, I mean, it's our policy. We can't, we can't say anything. Okay. I mean, even those conversations, all right. Well, you know, you're, let me, I'll, I'll, I'll totally agree with that. But let me ask you this question. You know, did you tell the person, it's okay for them to use you as a reference, you know, and if they're like, no, no, I mean, you listen to how they answer it. You're going to get a sense on, are they really kind of trying to dodge saying this person isn't a good person or are they, literally, hey, corporate says I can't do this. Well, if you, you know, on a friend's side, I mean, what would you say just as a friend? Oh, it's a friend. Oh, yeah, I would definitely tell you. Then they just off they go into the races right from that standpoint. But I also get, you know, clients will sit there and say to me, well, who's going to give her bad reference? There's, that happens all the time. I mean, I, I mean, the one that stood out in my, my brain, the most, you know, this one, one person was like, well, yeah, now that he's got his drinking problem under control, yeah, he's really, he's a lot better. Oh, okay. Good enough. Thank you. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it references is a great tool to use from that standpoint. As I said, one to help the candidate, you know, in the process, but two, to keep building your group of clients and potential candidates and whatnot. So it's an old school lost art. I'm, you didn't, to thank you notes, you know, making sure that the candidate sends a good thank you note and not just the lame, who's really nice talking to you. I hope you're from you, you know, no, talk about something you guys talked about in the interview. Now, I haven't sent it to me. I'm like, send me what you want to, you know, send over to, to the client. And part of it's a proofread, of course. But if I think it's lame, I'll tell it. No, do it again. This is, you know, I won't rewrite people's resumes. I won't write their thanking notes, but I'll, I'll help talk them and walk them through it. You know, you know, I will tell you, I'm working on an HR manager job right now, or a short general, excuse me. The worst resume writers I've ever seen are this, this, for this HR role. It's like, are you kidding me? Would you hire this, if, if you got this resume on your side, would you hire yourself? I can't imagine that you would. They're horrible, absolutely horrible. I've had to tell more of these people to change their resumes than I ever have to tell IT people or production people or engineering people. And they are really great resume writers, but this this HR job has just been a real eye opener for me. It's like, oh my gosh. So Rich, one final question that I'll let I'm like a dog with a bone that's referencing because you're one of the very few people who've mentioned this on the podcast. So I just want to take the opportunity. Do you immediately flip that and ask about recruiting for their firm or do you wait and then call back another time? Like what's your sort of approach to that? One, certainly a thank them for what they've what you know the information that they've shared. And really it's very organic to what they say. I mean a lot of them recruit themselves or they say, wow, hey, we don't get recruit recruiters calling about references anymore. That makes you stand out and then like, well, that's what we do and then you can take it down that path. But I don't push it. If they haven't said that, I'll just say, do you mind if we keep tabs in the future? And if they say no, okay, I mean, I abide by that. But if they say, oh, sure, yeah, no worries. I have part of my cadence, okay, each of these every every week I have anywhere from 20 to 100 pop up on that week. And some of it's lower because it's the Christmas week. Okay, I didn't have that many that week or the 4th of July week or something like that. So it depends on the week of kind of which ones have heavier and apathin Monday through Friday. I kind of plan out my whom I going to reach and then I write them down on my planner each of the Monday through Friday days and kind of go from there. So the biggest heavy when you'd asked this before and I should have mentioned this my heaviest amount of time on the planning is actually weekends. I will actually map out the whole Monday through Friday of the things that are already on my ATS calendar, right, for that standpoint. And as I said, I mean, I just systems go down. I just could I just call it from there and not have to have this planner. Yeah, I could, but I see it on the planner. Oh, I supposed to call this place on Tuesday. Let's go to their website. Oh, they have two jobs. Okay, now I know to talk to them about those two jobs or no, they don't have anything on there. But still got to reach out to them. They remember me. I keep tabs with clients every three months and keep tabs of candidates every six months. Okay, I was about to ask you how often are you keeping in touch with these quarterly with the client unless they tell me that's too often. Okay, which would you what do you prefer? My favorite line is basically, you know, essentially, you know, I want to be able to keep tabs with you so that, you know, I'm not a past, but I'm persistent. And they to laugh and, you know, okay, give me calm three months or give me calm form, whatever, whatever they say. And it depends on what they, you know, some say, don't call me till next year. Okay. So, I mean, there's plenty of my thought is there's plenty of fish in the sea. I don't have to piss anybody off. I mean, you know, I get told, well, well, if you put it into the year, you may be missing out. But I'm still doing what they want. You've got a very gentle way of approaching relationships, which I think it's obviously working for you. I don't think we could have this reputation, I think of being aggressive or I don't think that's necessarily warranted. It certainly isn't in your in your case. I like persistent. I'll be persistent. Yeah. I call it the three P's rich polite professional persistent. If you're polite and professional, you can get away with being quite persistent and you're not going to upset anyone. That is true. That's like, I like that. I may have adopt that three P's. There you go. Okay. So, we've not even talked about you launching your own firm. How long have you had your own business now? Well, I started in '82 and I was working for another firm and I built up about a two million dollar business between IT and when I started in this industry was I placed chemists. I wanted to do the IT side. So, I started that up. So, I had two teams of recruiters that I was still running a desk but I was managing two teams. I sat down with the owner one day and basically I was like, hey, I'd like to talk to you about getting a little bit of an equity stake here or something. I'm part of it. At the time, he was like, no, no, I'm giving this business to my kids. I'm like, well, we're in the recruiting industry. You know what you're telling me then, right? If I want to do this, I've got to move on. Essentially, he goes, yeah, I'm not worried about it. You don't have the co-honus to go do that. Okay. Wow. He didn't know your history and the fact that that is the one thing that's going to make you want to do it. Yeah. So, then I went to the lift out office and I went to Jim's office, my mentor. So, I wanted to give you the heads up. I just had this meeting and I'm going to leave. I just wanted to give you the heads up before I do anything else. He goes, hang on a second. And he called another person in and said, tell George what you just said. I told George as well. He goes, okay, you guys ready to leave? So, all three of us left. And we started up our company together. And we did it for a good number of years. And I will tell you Jim was fantastic as a mentor and a manager. He genuinely would just sit down and he had no problems there for an hour, two, three hours with people to just help them through problems and talk to them and what not. And my style was watch what I do and do what I do and you'll make money. And it doesn't work well with very many people. They just don't like that way. And I was not able to make that switch. So, at some point I finally said, I need to just go do this on my own. And we parted ways and I started up team Bradley. But great, great times with the two of them from a building of business. We had about 35 employees, recruiter wise. I tried doing, we have another recruiters underneath me here with team Bradley. But while I ended up getting cancer and just real perspective on, no, why am I doing things I don't like to do? I'm only going to do things I like to do and that is helping candidates, helping clients, put them together. And I don't need to deal with all the antics that recruiters put you through. When was this rich? The conscious decision did not have any employees. No, like when you got the cancer diagnosis and you kind of decided, hey, do you know what? I'm going to do things the way I want to do them. 2014. So 12 years. Over 10 years. Gosh, that's it. Put a real different perspective in life, right? You know, I mean, is this a say, I only do the things that I like to do or want to do now instead of the things that, you know, you don't want to do. Absolutely. I think that's a very valuable. Was that just like an instant? Like, how did you come to that realization? Well, as I was dealing with my cancer actually was the scurries I hurt my back. And I went in to have them forget what how to fix my back and they're like, oh, you have a different problem. We got to fix them. I'm like, what? No, it fixes back. I mean, so much pain. They're like, yeah, you'll die if we don't fix this one. So we're fixing this one and then we'll fix you back. So I went through 2014 was pretty much a nine year for me. I mean, from that standpoint, I mean, I kept trying to do what I thought I was doing. I didn't like spent wise, but it just was really, really tough. So I had probably one of my worst years ever just because of that. And in and of having to go through three different surgeries between the cancer and the back surgeries and came out the other end and I'm good. I'm fine. Right from that standpoint, but in my life, I sat down and and kind of reassessed. It's like, nah, I could have not been here anymore. So all we we realize what we like and what we don't like. And so we've we've done kind of a different path from that standpoint. So and then two years ago now, I had a second bout of cancer and just reinforced. Okay, we made the right choices here. Let's do what we like and I worked all the time. And so now, so the last 10 years or so, we've we've traveled, we've visited places, taken time away from the business and whatnot. So I still love doing what I do, but I also like the time when I'm not doing what I do when I'm doing. So from that standpoint. So what would you say at the moment is you're like, roughly how many weeks do you take off? How many hours are you working and how's that changed from when you were kind of working around the clock? Well, I still kind of work around the clock. Okay. Now the kids are grown. So now it's the things that I used to take a lot of time off, you know, the kids activity. [BLANK_AUDIO] or taking them to this and doing that and helping by coaching and all that kind of fun stuff. Now we have a dog, so we take time off for the dog and we like, we're down here in Florida, so we've got a golf cart saloon, we can drive the dog around because she loves doing that. So we still take time off, but it's different. As I said, now it's more, Amy and I try to have date nights and activities and then trips. As I said, we went to Australia, we went to Hawaii the last couple years, we went to, or we're going to Alaska here in a few months. So I mean, it's just, we kind of look at, okay, what thing or activity do we want to do and then we kind of map it out and then work on taking the time to go or doing a lot of work so that we can take that time and go do whatever it is for that standpoint. So, have you been to Scotland? British tiles is next year. Okay. So that is actually, we're going to do a cruise around the area and so we can actually see a number of the different sites up in that area. So really good friends are living in London, so we're going to end there and then spend probably a week or two with them as well. So we did that two years ago with them. We went to England, Spain, Portugal, France. It was when the Olympics were going on. So we actually took our youngest daughter to the Olympics to see. She was a roller in college and we took her to actual Olympic growing events so she loved it. So that's amazing. Rich, speaking of the holidays, a lot of business owners don't give themselves time off and I think the reason is they're worried that if I go away for a week, then I'm going to miss opportunities or my clients, like I won't be in touch with my clients, how do you approach that situation? Well, unfortunately, I probably fall into that line of, I'm it's hard for me to take time off from that standpoint, but I don't do new things during those times. I mean, just if we have interviews going on, you know, certainly keep tabs with that because I mean, I'd love to make a $20,000 or $30,000 placement while I'm on vacation and pay for the whole thing, right? But I don't work on new things. I'm not actively calling new candidates to try to get them out to a company. And because it's just Amy and I at this point with, you know, nobody else, I mean, we're gone. They lights off and we're out of here, right? Kind of a thing. So we'll respond by email or we're or cost of me if there's an urgent call from that standpoint, but we really do when we're out, we're trying to kind of enjoy whatever it is. But you'll still manage interviews or offers or whatever while you're while you're on vacation then. Okay, all right, that makes sense. So it's kind of like, I think that's the thing when you run your own business is, you know, it's not necessarily you're ever going to switch off completely. It's sort of like, you can take time during the week and do like, look after your dog, your kids, go to activities. And then the flip side is when you're on vacation, you might have to do some business as well. Yeah, very true, very true. And again, maybe it was from those restaurant days and then having a hustle just to, I mean, even high school, I had four jobs. I did high school while working for different roles because the place I was staying, I wanted, I didn't want to not give them money, right? They didn't ask for it, but I just felt like, look, you're taking me in, you're doing this. So I need to, I need to pay you guys. I'm paying a lot. I mean, you know, I mean, newspaper, I made what, 20 bucks a week from that standpoint, right? You know, I would give them half and they'd keep the other half. So there was my $10 if you will from that standpoint. So they were super great people from that standpoint. And I just worked. And so I don't know anything other than you work. That's what you do. Rich, let me ask you a couple, I should have asked you these questions at the very beginning, but people always want to know. So first of all, you're industry, you're at placing people in technology, right? IT. I mean, I for, is this I started in lab, placing chemists for the first two or three years, started up IT after that. And I've been doing it IT for, you know, perlaminate, I have a Chicago land IT. But over the last several years, we've turned it into more boutique, if you will, where if I have a really good client that I like, why keep reinventing the wheel, you know, what else do you have? What else do you know, like that check book? What else can you use my help on? So we fill HR general list role. Exactly. HR production manager, we just filled a sales job. We filled here recently of our placements this year, those still over half, almost 60% are still on the IT side. So so IT is still my, my main area. I mean, we've got 40 years worth of contacts and whatnot. So, but the nice part is I call a company that, you know, if somebody who's a, a DBA, hey, who's your, who's your production manager over there? Who's, who's the HR manager or whatever? I mean, it's, it's an easy ask from that standpoint. So, and now it's linked in and, you know, all the other tools that are out there. I mean, the technology has changed a lot since '82. Obviously, I mean, I could go through the whole litany of the different things. I mean, it went from, you know, no, no voicemails and, you know, old-time phones and, you know, when I first started, it was just switching from an applicant paid business to a client paid business, right? So, I mean, it is a huge, huge difference now. So, what's your tech, we were talking about a interview earlier, Rich. What's your tech stack look like now? Well, it's said job diva is my applicant tracking system. Interviews are video system that I use. And then Office 365, right? I mean, for all the basic tools like that, I just started using something, Alan from Pinnacle had mentioned that's something called Whisper Flow, where you can talk all your, whatever you want to say instead of typing it all. Oh, yeah, like a, uh, voice to text. Yeah, it's a really, really good tool. And it's like 12 bucks a month. So nothing cost wise from that. Shut up, Alan Fisher. What a great guy. Thank you. Thank you. Alan, that was Alan's cool thing. He, we were actually doing a whole other session. It just was a quick little thing you said. I'm like, wait a minute. I hate typing. I mean, I can type, but I hate doing it. So, I'm, I'm playing with it. And I think I'm going to definitely sign on for that on an eight, because you can save some money if you do an annual instead of 12 bucks a month. So what, what do you, what do you use interview for? We do several things with interview. We, we record with job descriptions so that we, we have an actual copy of it instead of trying to be scrambled notes like I used to do. I mean, I would be somewhere and I would, I would write down the notes on a, on a napkin, you know, kind of a thing. So much better when you have the whole conversation where you can actually go back and listen to it and go, oh, I missed this part of that conversation or, or this little thing that they said. So I use it for that. So it's a, I know take her as well. Yes. Yeah. But, but the whole video, I mean, you get a chance to actually see the person or the attention and whatnot. Is it sad? I mean, we're really good at reading people. And so it's, it's real helpful when I can actually go back and actually see how they're saying what they're saying, not just what they're saying. Same thing with the candidates. And then emails out, to me, email's out clients. I use it for that as well. So in with candidates and clients, I'll look at it as the clients. Correct my thumb wrong. I think you create a custom landing page for each candidate with a video and the other information or like, is that how you're presented candidates? No, no, no. With the candidates, we still do that old school resume and bullet points and all that good fun stuff. But we do have two or three questions that the client says, hey, I'd like to see how they answer this question. And so they'll get snippets, not the whole conversation. And then the candidate knows that too. I mean, this is all with their knowledge that this is information is going to the client. So absolutely. But those snippets aren't they presented on a webpage? Yes. You send the clients. So then you can see if the clients actually looked at those videos. Yes. Yeah. But we don't advertise that part. But it does help us know when they've have they looked at it, when they've done it. And that kind of thing. So and then do you do the same when you're presenting job opportunities to candidates? Do you create a video about the job or we've done that with a couple clients who actually liked that. Yeah, I would like them to see this. So there are some that we've done that with not everybody on the client side. Not everybody is is, oh, yeah, sure. That's a great idea. So again, I'm not I'm not a arm twister. I'm not pushing if if I'll suggest it as an idea and if they don't Like it. Okay. You're right. You're a choice. Kind of a thing. So why you seem like very easy going kind of just flexible guy. I hate conflict. I hate having any, I mean, again, from my upbringing. I mean, I just anybody who raises their voice. I'm out. See you. Bye. Kind of a thing. So that makes sense. That makes sense. I yeah, absolutely. What's it average fee value for the for you these days? Somewhere 25 to 30 when they range. Um, salaries anywhere from 100 to 200 in that in that general range. Fantastic. So you're even though you're kind of going at a slower pace these days, you're still targeting yourself for 50k a month on average. Oh, at least I'm actually shooting for six to seven a month. I mean, 6700 thousand for the year. Okay. Fantastic. Wow. What, what were your best years? Over a million, but not a lot over a million. I would say 1.1, 1.5 or 0.5, not 1.5. Sorry. Didn't me to say it that way. Um, so right around the million. And then I realized that was. I hit the cancer stuff. I'm like, okay, hold on. That's really something. Some things are more important. I don't need to work that hard, you know, to just enjoy life as well. So. Yeah. Have you ever calculated or estimated your lifetime career buildings? Yeah. Yeah. 30, 30 million. Wow. That's crazy. A lot. And that's just me. That's not even counting the people that I had working for me and. And what that so I'm. I'm. Jen made pretty excited. Jen Mayor, right? Mm hmm. From pinnacle. She's got a great formula for calculating the impacts that you've made where she takes the. The salary value. Is it a placement value or the salary value? I need to refresh my memory multiple by two because it's the impact on the client and the candidate, right? At least. I mean, there's a ripple effect that goes far beyond that. Of course, like the. The company and the community and the family and everything else. But even if just keep it simple. And she's worked at she's had like a billion dollars of impact in the world through the placement she's made. I imagine in your career, it's probably even, you know, bigger than that. So. Yeah. I miss quoted it's actually 28 million. 28 million. Okay. That's close enough. That's a lot of impact rich and thank you for having an impact for our listeners as well. That was a lot of fun. Enjoy the conversation. I'm sure people will come away with lots of inspiration and also practical things they can implement. Well, I hope I was of help and it's been a great pleasure to actually have a conversation with you. We didn't even get into so many of the subjects I thought you were going to cover. So. Well, we'll need to do much time. Yeah. All right, Rich, have an awesome weekend. Great to see you take care. All right, before you go, there are three specific habits from Rich that you can start using immediately. First, plan your day the night before Rich still uses a handwritten planner that he designed himself. He spends 20 minutes to an hour writing down exactly who he's going to call including clients, candidates, references, follow ups. He says if he skips this, the next day feels like he's running in quicksand second, measure talk time, not activity. Rich tracks how many hours he's actually speaking to people and his target is three to four hours a day, not emails, not admin, real conversations and third build reference checks into your workflow. After a successful first interview, Rich runs references, not just to validate the candidates, but to meet new people. He uses those conversations to build relationships and generate future business. Apply those three disciplines consistency and you'll operate on a completely new level. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time. Growing your recruitment business shouldn't mean working longer hours. 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