Speaker 1Most women have been there. Something feels off. You don't feel like yourself. Yet your doctor says everything looks fine. Spoiler, it's your hormones. Midi is a virtual care platform built for women by women and offers specialized hormone care from trained clinicians. Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. It's not you, it's your hormones. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit. That's joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for
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Speaker 3Your Kids podcast. So, pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat, and enjoy the conversation. This is episode 108, and I am going to be talking about how to screw up your kids. So, let's get started. I am going to be talking to Natasha Devon. Now, Natasha Devon, MBE, is a writer, she's a presenter, and she's an activist. And what's really kind of blew me away about the conversation that I had with her, and why I think it's so important that you listen to this particular episode, is because Natasha tours schools and universities and runs events talking to children, specifically about their mental health, about body image, about gender equality, and she's so well-placed to be sharing with us what she's hearing from these teens and how we can then help manage and support them, particularly around the use of social media and social platforms and how that impacts. And her book is just filled with super practical tools. It's designed specifically for teens, and we'll talk about that. But I also think it's a really crucial book for us to work through. I mean, I was very fortunate enough that Natasha gifted me a copy, and I love it. And I think it's a really good book. And I think I learned so much just as a parent going through it for my own children, but also it gave me lots of huge insights that were really helpful for me. So I absolutely know that you are going to love this episode. And obviously, our Gibb will send you the links to Natasha Devon, her work, and also for you to be able to buy the book as well. Now, as ever, if you enjoy this episode, I would be so grateful if you could follow and review this podcast so that others can find us and we can spread the love. So until next time, bye-bye. Next time, here's Natasha. Welcome, welcome all of you. You are in for a major, major treat because I am excited to say that I have Natasha Devon going to be talking to us today and sharing so much about the work that she does, but specifically her new book, Clicks, How to Be Your Best Self Online. Natasha, welcome. Thank you.
Speaker 4Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3I'm so excited. We've got so much to cover. Can I just say something? Whenever I have a guest on, one of the first things that I work on the basis is we end up doing what we do for a reason. So can I ask you just to start off to say, what do you do? And how did you get to be doing what you do?
Speaker 4So my job involves going into about three schools or colleges every week, on average, sometimes in the UK and sometimes abroad throughout the world. And I work predominantly with 14 to 18 year olds, so slightly older teenagers. But the idea behind the work that I do was to make the mental health conversation a little bit more universal. So I asked teenagers what they would like PSHE lessons on, those kind of in-betweeny mental health issues that you wouldn't necessarily go to the doctor for, but can have a real profound impact on you, like body image insecurity and exam stress. And then I work with experts to create lesson plans and presentations based on the feedback that they give me. And the reason that I do it is because I have a diagnosis of panic disorder. And looking back, I had my first panic attack when I was 10, but that was a really long time ago. And nobody really spoke about mental health back then or acknowledged it. And I was misdiagnosed with asthma and allergies and all kinds of things. And I didn't receive an official diagnosis until I was in my thirties. So there were 20 years of my life where I just didn't know that there was a name for it. And I didn't know what it was. And I didn't know what was happening to me. And I feel like my mental health education was very much based in the extremes. And therefore, when mental illness happened to me, it sort of crept up on me and I didn't even recognise it in myself. So I wanted to give what is hopefully a more kind of relevant and engaging mental health education to young people than the one I had.
Speaker 3God, that is incredible. And what happened then in that trans, you know, when you reflect back to that 10 year old girl that was having all of these experiences and was being told it was something completely different to what it was, when you reflect back on that, how, how do you, you know, how did you feel back then? Can you remember?
Speaker 4Yeah, the main way that panic attacks manifest for me is in difficulty breathing, which is why I was misdiagnosed with asthma. But I remember I was a really angry 10 year old. And I was angry throughout most of my teens. And it was because my brother was born four months premature. And then six months later, my cousin who was a year younger than me, she was nine died of cancer. And those two things were both really unfair. And I have always had a kind of over developed sense of fairness. That's why I'm a campaigner now. So I was very angry. But I also because I'm the oldest child kind of felt like it's not okay to play up, you have to be helpful, you have to not make a scene. So I think what it was, was actually just swallowing so much of the frustration and the anger that I was feeling at that time. And it came out through panic attacks. Yeah, because I
Speaker 3mean, your body keeps score and it has to come out at some point. It's an energy, isn't it? Emotions. And that's such a, you know, whilst in your particular case, there was, you know, there was a very severe impact with that. But I do think that so many children are very ill-equipped. And not because not from anything, I'm saying this from a place of love, but they're very ill-equipped to help understand that in those sort of scenarios, you really have to help children work through those emotions, rather than letting them create their own narratives. What was your experience in terms of the conversations that were encouraged for you to have around what had happened and how adults work through that with you?
Speaker 4Well, I mean, my, my brothers, there's only 10 months between them, because the youngest one was so premature. He was born at 25 weeks. So you have to imagine my mum's got one baby who's really early and really poorly, and a 10 month old at the time when my cousin died. So she's just trying to survive at that point. So I can't remember having many conversations. Obviously, we did talk about it, but perhaps not as thoroughly as we might have done in other circumstances. And I very much kind of took on a second mum type role with my brothers as well. So I felt this kind of desire to protect them from what was going on and make everything lovely for them. And that was part of, I think, of plastering a smile on. And, and, you know, sometimes when I say to young children, what does good mental health look like? How would you know if you had good mental health or someone else did? They, they often say, oh, you'd be happy all the time. And one of the things that I talked to them about is actually the mark of good mental health is to be able to feel a feeling and learn from it and process it. And you won't be happy all the time because life doesn't make you happy all the time. And in fact, if you were, you, you would probably be masking something.
Speaker 3Yeah, that's such an interesting thing. Where do you think, because I think that's quite an interesting concept, this idea that, you know, we've almost got this at one end, you've got a mental health challenge and at the other end, you're happy. And we don't talk about these sort of shades of grey in between. Where do you think this definition or this interpretation or that, that young people have about what, what good mental health looks like is being happy? Where, where do they get that from?
Speaker 4I think somewhere along the line, we confused mental illness with difficult emotions. And it's tough because I'm certainly not of the school of you know, oh, we, we were all stressed when our exam time came and just suck it up and you're a snowflake. Like, you know, I don't hold with that whatsoever, but I, I prefer the way I describe it is you've got your sort of mental health issues or issues that can impact your mental health. And then you've got your diagnosable mental illnesses and they're two separate things. And not everybody finds it helpful to see it in, in those ways. But I think it's with those in between issues, which is very much where my work is based. It's as unhelpful to pathologize them as it is to dismiss them entirely. They require this really quite best both approach i think yeah and i
Speaker 3love that phrase that you've got about that kind of in-between space because so many teens are caught in that in-between space they don't they're not well maybe they're tempted into that pathologizing but they know they're not they're their kind of mental health isn't where it ought to be but it's not so bad that it's that it's this sort of pathologised.
Speaker 4Yeah and especially with the thresholds for getting a diagnosis are rising and rising because the NHS are so stretched so that the number of people who are almost kind of languishing in that in-between space is increasing.
Speaker 3Yeah and we don't want them to sitting languishing in that kind of in-between space and having no support whatsoever. Natasha when you talk about the issues that can affect mental health what in your view are the top things that do affect this sort of age groups mental health?
Speaker 4Well it's really interesting because I can tell you what they say and then I can tell you what I think so yeah that's brilliant when I ask them what I often phrase it what's in your stress bucket and they always start with academic stuff so they say exam stress, homework, issues with time management, not feeling like they have enough hours in the day to do everything then they might say you know other people, friendship issues, maybe siblings, people at home and sometimes they will talk about the pressure to be perfect and not just to be perfect but to demonstrate your perfection constantly to show that you are being perfect constantly and then when they've given me that list it's often me who says and with this whole thing of not having enough hours in the day feeling this pressure to be perfect misunderstandings with your peers do you think that social media might be playing a role in that and they go oh yeah because it doesn't occur to them straight off the bat because they were born into this world they don't know any different so I would probably I wouldn't put social media at the top of the list by any means but I would definitely put it on the list and they don't. I also see a lot of young people struggling with identity and so things to do with race, religion, class, sexuality, gender and that's really closely correlated with mental well-being as well kind of having a sense of identity knowing who you are having a sense of belonging and community that's not something they articulate but it's just something that I observe in them.
Speaker 3Yeah and I think that you know when we cast our minds back to those sort of slightly those angst-ridden teen years and probably I'd say even my 20s and 30s where you you don't really haven't quite worked out who you are what your values are what your interests are how you identify what your all of those things do you think that social media plays into that or do you think it's just we've got a generation that are just exposed to more things so they raise more questions? You
Speaker 4know I look at some of the content that young people are making now asking philosophical existential questions there are yes it's a TikTok video and it's 90 seconds but some of the stuff they're playing with you know intersectionalism feminism socialism and they're doing it with such wit and humor and I actually think it can be quite helpful in cutting through some of the confusion. I saw a TikTok video the other day and I thought that is genius it was a teenage girl she was pretending to be her mum so she didn't know dressed as her her mum and she and she was like I can't remember what this girl's name was but let's say it was Annabelle right so she went um Annabelle I don't know what you mean when you say that you have anxiety no one my age has anxiety I don't have anxiety your father doesn't have anxiety I'm not sure I believe anxiety exists and that it cuts to her being like um oh my god your sister's 10 minutes home at late home she's dead in a ditch and if you don't pass all of your exams you you won't become a doctor and you'll die in a ditch. Just having massive anxiety about everything but just not terming it that.
Speaker 3That's so interesting isn't it so so really these things existed because I think this is one of the questions that I get asked a lot by parents and and people who'll be listening parents will be listening will be kind of thinking you know is this a new thing because a lot of people sort of talk about mental health being a case of oh we're just pandering to children we used to just have to just crack on but I don't think it's a new thing it's a new thing it's a new thing it's a new thing I think is your view then Natasha that actually these things have always been there we just haven't discussed them we haven't labeled them we haven't given the framework around that it was just something that we just shoved under the carpet and never discussed.
Speaker 4It's definitely always been there you know it when people talk about the the second world war and how you know no soldiers struggled with their mental health apparently because it was a more resilient generation then they don't look at the levels of alcoholism and domestic abuse and things which are you know clear signifiers that there was a lot of trauma within that generation I always think of my nan um she she passed away last year but she she had this thing where she would say um how's such and such one of my friends you know she like my best friend's called shiru so she'd say how's shiru and I'd say she's great thanks nan thanks for asking and then she'd say how is she in herself and and that means how's her mental health that's what that means but it's just how that generation phrased it. You know so it's just the nomenclature has changed I think
Speaker 3yeah and I think that that's a really important point because otherwise what we do is we do we diminish the experience that that the sort of this middle group our teens and our children are experiencing because and then you get this mismatch and this this like loggerhead between parents and their children because it's almost as if one's talking one language and the other one's talking a completely different one.
Speaker 4Yeah totally. Totally right and that's why I always advise parents if your child does make a disclosure to you if they say I'm feeling this way I think the number one rule of any conversation about mental health is not to assume that the way you understand the word is the same way the person speaking means the word and start off with that assumption so ask loads of open questions so that you can really understand what exactly is this person grappling with and what's the best way that I can help them.
Speaker 3Yeah that's so such an important thing I was listening to a talk yesterday and and they were talking about how teens can misread when they're going through that particular age and specifically that the age groups that you're working with Natasha particularly in schools is that they they really struggle to read certain types of emotions not that they're emotionally inept but they just don't always pick up on them and so quite often our concerned face can be misinterpreted as an angry face so of course we then get this sort of huge reaction from them because they've assumed we've meant something else and we haven't really then we then launch with the whole how dare you be so disrespectful I would never have spoken to my parents like that and then we're in this head
Speaker 4banging it's totally right sometimes I I mean I love teenagers I love their brains I find the way they think so exciting where they're you know they're old enough to understand how things work broadly but they're young enough and optimistic enough and energetic enough to be able to energetic enough let's face it to want things to change and you know sometimes when they ask you why why do we do things like that I'm genuinely like I don't know it's stupid thanks for asking the question but um but sometimes the conversations I have when they say oh you know my mum has said I'm not allowed to do this and I'll say why do you think that your mum has said you're not allowed and they're like to be annoying just to be annoying and it hasn't occurred to them that there might be another motivation other than just to be annoying
Speaker 3I just love that which brings me so I want I want to talk about your book Natasha because actually that specific we're going to jump all over the place now but just because you've mentioned that in particular so the book to me from the way that I've read it has really come across as a handbook for for children and teens in terms of how best to navigate their online presence so it's not just sort of social media but their online presence and what I love particularly talking about this is the the section the chapter that you've got specifically on how can you have conversations with your parents to help them understand the world in which you inhabit and that's I don't think I've ever seen that before I don't think anyone's talked about that before it's always come from the space of as a parent this is what you need to do to help manage your children's lives online but not come from that place of I'm going to empower you to understand the space and then to empower you to be able to start conversations with your parents and to be able to start conversations with your parents and know when is the best time to start the conversation so can you talk me around that because I it's revolutionized I think the way that teens then will feel empowered about
Speaker 4this space I um so many parents say to me I don't know what my teenager is doing online and and by that they don't mean I've just left them to it and I have no interest in it they mean I don't understand I don't understand this game this app I don't know how it works so it struck me that I don't understand this game this app I don't know how it works how this app or this game that they love actually works, showing you the functions of it. And in doing that, you're learning about, you're getting a free technology lesson, essentially. But also that's a real quality bonding time because you're coming to them with genuine curiosity and saying this thing that you love, I want to understand why you love it so much. And you're building that trust so that say your child is approached by someone and they're not quite sure who they are and they're not comfortable with what they're being asked. There's more of a chance that they'll talk to you about it then.
Speaker 3Yeah, and that's such a crucial thing. I mean, I know that parents are so fearful of their children being online and part of that is social media, but part of it is still gaming and particularly where they're making, they're playing games online with people that they don't know. So it kind of creates this real stress. And I think the reality is that technology and device use is here, you know, is part, is an intense, integral part of the way that our children communicate. And I'm a real advocate of parents trying to meet their children where they're at. Help me understand. How would you, and I know that in your book, you've talked about how the teens can then be empowered to do that. But what are some of the kind of ground rules as parents when our teen approaches us with these things? And maybe they show us something that we think, oh, but what do you think? Do you have any advice? Do you have some specific ground rules that as parents we need to observe when they reach out to us in that way?
Speaker 4I think for anything, and this goes for any kind of awkward conversation, the number one thing that teenagers say to me when I say, have you thought about talking to, you know, whoever's at home about this? They say, I can't, they'll freak out. And it seems to me that that's a real barrier that they don't want the drama of what that revelation might cause. So I would say if you possibly can, maybe save your freaking out for later when they're not in the room and just sort of try to be really calm and keep approaching it with curiosity. Okay, you know, why do you think that? Why? And, you know, you can introduce things so that it seems like it's their idea. So you can ask questions like, what would happen if you tried this? Or, you know, why do you think this person might be saying this? What would happen if you did that? So that you're not kind of dictating to them. I also think, I didn't make this up. This is based on some research done by ChildNet that one of the big fears that teenagers have is having their technology taken away from them as punishment. So they often avoid talking to teachers and parents, even if they know that something's going on online that's not quite right. They think the net result of this is my phone or my tablet or whatever's going to be taken away. So try to be a bit more inventive with punishment. Try to be a bit more inventive with punishment. So I would say it would be another ground rule.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think there's, from what I see, there's a slight overuse of withdrawing technology as a consequence for a misdemeanor when actually it's not related to the misdemeanor. And I think part of that is, I think parents feel they don't have anything else that their child or teen values in the same way. So they think that that's, you know, the most punitive that they can come out with. But, you know, as you say, it's not. It just creates this closed kind of relationship with it. Do you think that from your kind of experience and the way that you're, this book that you've written, what sort of age should parents be buying this? Because my suspicion is it's probably a lot younger than parents might be thinking.
Speaker 4So for parents to read it, I would recommend maybe tweens, 9, 10, 11, around about the time that their peers are going to be getting phones. Because even if they're not allowed a phone until they're 13, 14, your child is only as safe as the least safe child in their class when it comes to the online content that they see. So I would recommend it for kind of end of primary school age, even though the book itself is for 13 to 16 year olds.
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Speaker 3Yeah, I think so. On that basis, of the parent reading it first and getting that sort of, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think that's probably a really, really sensible thing to do. And we will provide links. Do not worry. We will provide links to the book, which I think is, I just think is such an important thing because I think it, you know, it's this whole notion that I think knowledge is power. And a lot of the things that we're very fearful as parents is that we just don't understand it. And I think the pace at which it's moving, which is why I love your, when you get hold of your copies of these book of the book, you'll find there's so many amazing visuals, but I was saying to Natasha before we started recording that there's, that there's a visual right near the beginning in terms of how long the internet has been around. And then this tiny little bit here, but it, but it's evolving at such a pace. I have two children, a 23 year old and a 19 year old. And I would say, and we've talked about it as a family, the pace at which it has changed from my eldest, and there's three and a half years. He doesn't recognize a lot of the things that his sister has been exposed to at 19. What can we do to kind of keep up with this sort of thing?
Speaker 4I would say address your own relationship with technology first is that this generation of parents, often they're quite social media addicted because we all lived through this huge revolution in the way that human beings live and communicate and understand the world. And it's almost like a lot of parents haven't had a minute to just compute what it means before then trying to guide their children through exactly the same thing. So looking at your own relationship, I think is a really good first step. And so many adults have written to me after reading clicks going, actually, I think I needed to know that. But the other thing is you can talk in really broad brushstrokes because even though the apps and the platforms that they're on change really rapidly and the trends, change really rapidly. What's going on in terms of how the algorithm behaves always, you know, looking for validation that gives you a five second high and then, you know, you want more the way that all the usual social cues are taken out of communication. So people are very often having arguments when they don't need to, you know, these are very universal themes and I am literally only on Instagram. I have a Twitter account because nominally I'm a journalist for one day a week. I have a show. But I hate Twitter. It's people shouting in a bin. And the only social media app I have any interest in is Instagram. And most teenagers aren't on Instagram anymore. They've moved on. And yet I can still talk to them about broadly the themes of the things that I am seeing and they get it because ultimately it's, it's the same. Just the content is a little bit different.
Speaker 3Yeah. And I think that that's an important thing. I always remember my son saying to me the reason why we're not on Facebook is our parents are. So we've come off and I suspect Instagram has been the next one. And then, and then, you know, when as parents have constantly on TikTok, it will be the next thing. And then the next thing,
Speaker 4my cousin wrote back when I was on Facebook, I haven't been on for many, many years, but back when I was on it, my teenage cousin wrote a status on Facebook and his mom commented under it and wrote, go to bed. And that's why we're
Speaker 3friends with our children. And all the rest of them. Although that there, can I, I mean, I don't, you know, can you talk a little bit about this idea? I mean, I, not the friendships, but people they're interacting with online and the comments that are made. So I do think it, it just requires us as parents to be constantly vigilant about what's my relationship with technology. What am I modeling for my children? And also to really try and step into their shoes, because I'm guessing the difference is that when we were younger and I'm considerably older than you, we were just doing different stuff that we weren't telling our parents about. So it's not, it's not that they are, they've, that they're inventing this new kind of difficulty and, and deceit because we were doing it. We were just a different kind of deceit.
Speaker 4Absolutely. Yeah. And the key thing I think you said there is constant vigilance because I, I hear a lot from parents and I completely understand the temptation to go in both of, these directions. I hear parents say I've taken zero tolerance approach they're not allowed any tech because it's dreadful and life was better before and then i hear parents who are like well i i don't i don't get it so i've just allowed them to do whatever they want and i talk in the book of i think about how when it comes to addiction there's two groups of people who are most at risk it's the um zero tolerance policy say it's alcohol it's the you're not even allowed a sip of alcohol ever or until your 18th birthday or it's unlocked liquor cabinet you know do what you like and actually the that in-between space of boundaries regulation open conversation trying to understand each other is what brings about the healthiest mindset but it's not the easy option by any stretch no no
Speaker 3it's not it's not at all but it's not the easy option by any stretch no it's not it's not at all but it's not the easy but i can completely see why those two extremes are what then sends them down that particular that route from your perspective if we're going to not do the zero tolerance which i don't think i think that anything that is zero tolerance you know life is all about balance when you think about anything whether that's exercise whether that's the way that we feed our bodies and the nutrients and things that we take it's not about bit of abstinence or at the other end of just eating anything and everything it's about moderate you know have a little bit of everything that's what makes life more interesting what are some of the things that you think that we should be doing as parents in terms of helping to support because i'm guessing you yeah let me ask that question and then i'm going to go back to the link with
Speaker 4mental health so what's really interesting is when you take gaming for example if if you ask a 14 year old boy how much time do you think is a reasonable amount of time to spend gaming in the evening they normally say between half an hour and an hour and then when if you say to their parents asking the same question they usually say between half an hour and an hour so the discrepancy is not in the ideal amount of time the discrepancy is in the the ideal amount of time and how long is actually being spent playing that game so yeah but in the book i talk about ways that teenagers can decide in advance how much time they want to spend and then create alerts so that they are regulating themselves you can help them to do that so setting alarms putting them in different rooms the questions to ask themselves at that point and what i actually borrowed from some of the psychology of addiction to to do this there's this um quote in the book about the space between urgent action and that if you can intervene in that space then you're acting from a place of free will and so i think what parents can and should be doing is helping their children to self-regulate because you're not always going to be there sticking your head around the bedroom door going are you doing your homework or you know no and actually
Speaker 3you're so right self-regulation is so important which i often talk about this idea about our role as parents is to help our children that they're basically a building under construction so we should be always with considering the end in mind and the end in mind surely is adults that can learn to self-regulate if we're constantly in intervening and doing the regulation for them then they're never going to learn how to yes
Speaker 4what you said and part of
Speaker 3and part of that learning is that they're going to make mistakes they're going to get it wrong sometimes they're not going to be
Speaker 4able to self-regulate yes and i could talk about this forever the psychology of making mistakes and failures i do think social media has played a role in creating an indelible footprint but i talk to young people so much about how you learn more from your failures than your successes and all the most successful people got it wrong a gazillion times and each time they were learning how to get it more right the next time and if you fear failure it doesn't mean that you succeed in everything it means that you don't do things if you think you might fail so you don't kind of fully embrace life so i do think that we have to kind of see these failures as learning opportunities and go okay so how are we going to prevent that from happening next time
Speaker 3yeah definitely i think that's a big part and i love that in your book you've talked specifically about how children and teens can curate their their feeds and in their role models because i think that's a that's a huge part yes of course on social platforms there are some feeds that are very very carefully curated and don't give us a true reflection of the failures and the ups and downs but there are others that do and that's why i think that's for me a really particularly important chapter to be kind of within that because our role models dictate a lot of the choices that we then make and the assumptions we make about how we should live what we should be doing what our values should
Speaker 4be yeah and there is a lot of evidence to show that if you are surrounded by a diverse range of body shapes it improves your body image and i don't see why that shouldn't be also true for thought and attitude and mood you know if you are surrounded by people who are reinforcing inspiring positive nourishing messages over time that's going to impact your self-esteem i believe yeah well i
Speaker 3can't remember the exact saying is that you're the product of the 10 people however many people you hang around with now obviously on when we're following people on social media we're not necessarily getting that smaller number but it must obviously must impact us in terms of sort of thoughts and how we view ourselves yeah and also
Speaker 4the algorithms learn according to what we interact with so if you you can game the algorithm by certain accounts and it will learn that you are into that type of content
Speaker 3yeah and i love that you've included that as well because that's such a crucial part i think parents don't understand that the feed that they have as adults in their social their social feeds as well as their children are is curated based on their interaction with the posts and so if you and some of it am i right astrid thinking that sometimes it can be as little as a 30 second engagement with a video or is it
Speaker 4even less than that yeah so the algorithm is measuring not only what you click on and like but also how long your eyes spend lingering on each post so it knows what you're scrolling past quickly and it knows what you are lingering on and it will feed you that content but it's also using cookies to share that across different sites as well which is why it made me laugh when there was an mp who said um it's disgraceful that when you go into your emails there's advertisements for pornography and it's like that's a bit of a self-own there
Speaker 3it didn't arrive by accident oh my god but it is so true so many people will say you know i've just been looking at and it suddenly appeared on my social feeds and things like that so i think that and again that's really important for us to understand because i think it's really important for us to understand because our children might inadvertently our teens might inadvertently click on something or engage with something that they've not asked to see more of but has then been curated in their feed and we should not be jumping to conclusions and making judgments that they've been clicking on all sorts of
Speaker 4things well and also that the algorithm will feed you the most extreme version sometimes of the thing you've shown interest in to try and grab your attention so it there's um it happens quite fast that if you look up content on vegetarianism it will push you towards veganism if you start looking how do i jog it will push you towards ultramarathons you know it's and it's trying to retain your attention by going look at all these shocking things in the world but what could happen then is your 12 year old could have typed what is feminism into youtube and then it's thrown up some andrew tape content but that doesn't mean that they went looking for
Speaker 3it yeah and i think that's a really important thing for us that you know that's a really important message for parents to be able to take home along with all other things that we've been talking about but it is that what shows up in our children's feeds and our teens feeds are not necessarily a result of something that they've actively clicked on it is part of these algorithms which is why helping our teens understand how the algorithm works is really important for them so they can they can then understand why it's and then they can make choices in terms of then feeding back that that's not content that they want to see more of and it's irrelevant or you know that they that they have issues with that natasha can i take you back to when you were talking about what teens say when you're doing your workshops with them about what are the things that create poor mental health or that they find stressful and overwhelming and what you find how do you what is your view then on social media and the impact that it plays on the we're talking about the in-betweens but also in terms of those then that are really struggling with their mental health
Speaker 4This is such a difficult question to answer. We know that people who are experiencing mild to moderate depression or anxiety are more likely to spend more time on social media. But we don't know which way around the chain of causation works. It's not necessarily that it's causing it. It could be that people are using social media as a distraction or a coping mechanism when they're going through a tough time. We do know that social media has a negative impact on body image, particularly in teenage girls, and that body image is very closely correlated with mental health. There's a statistic from the Mental Health Foundation that one in eight adults in the UK has experienced suicidal thoughts because of concerns about their body image. So that's not great. On the other hand, I sometimes think that what social media is doing is it's holding up a mirror to broader society. And we blame social media when, in fact, all it's doing is showing us things like perfectionism, things like hypercapitalism and how the curriculum has been changed so that children have been turned into data points and exam stress. All of that stuff is reflected on social media, but that doesn't mean that social media is causing it. And I also think that there are many advantages to social media. Most of all. I just think it's not going anywhere. That's why I wrote the book, because I was like, look, we can all go, oh, wasn't life wonderful before it? And look back in a nostalgic way and go, you know, I had a Nokia 3310. Fine. But it's not useful to teenagers now.
Speaker 3My son keeps talking about that was his first phone and how could his sister end up with a smartphone when he had the brick? We're talking about a 23-year-old to a 19-year-old. No, but I think. I think that that is a really important way that we reframe it. I have always been very vocal about my concerns about social media and the impact that it has on young people. But the way that you have framed it in terms of it, it's just a tool that amplifies what's happening societally. And we see that in terms of the divisiveness and the way that it places people in certain camps and certain groups. And I think that that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing because your view is this. So I do think that that's, I think we need to be looking at it from a wider issue in terms of mental health. But it is very interesting what you were saying in terms of one in eight in terms of body image and then the impact on mental health. From what you've seen in schools and in the way that you've written the book, do you think that this is more of an issue for girls than it is for boys? Or is it just a case that boys mask it more?
Speaker 4So I think it's. I think it manifests differently in girls and boys. And this is a generalization. Obviously, it's not universally applicable. But mostly, if you say to a teenage girl, we're constantly being manipulated. They keep inventing new parts of our body for us to apologize for. And that's because the beauty, fashion and fitness industry are trying to make money out of amplifying our perceived flaws. And we can never be allowed to be happy with ourselves. They go, yeah, that's pretty much how the world works. You say that to a teenage boy and they'll say, what's wrong with wanting to be healthy? And very often they start talking about evolutionary biology. They say, you know, men went out and killed bison. And we have to be strong and muscular. And women stayed at home. It's a real reductive understanding of evolutionary biology, number one. And number two, we don't live in caveman times anymore. Like, you know, you don't have to do that. But it's what I've been working really hard with teenagers is unpicking because somewhere along the line, health and beauty got intertwined. And there's all these really unhelpful messages about the relationship between weight and health, for example, and what health looks like. And that comes from health influencers quite often who are pushing really not very scientifically robust information. So helping them to think critically about that. And ultimately, I say to them, the message of how to be is so not sexy. It's like, you know, eat your veg, drink some water, get enough sleep, move around a bit. Don't overthink it. But that's so
Speaker 3true, isn't it? It's so true. And I think what is quite interesting, isn't it, that you get different things. Do you think that as women and mothers that we spend a lot of time explaining the beauty and health thing with our girls and we take a lot of time explaining the beauty and health thing with our girls and we take a lot of time explaining isn't just coming parentally, but it's coming from every angle?
Speaker 4Interesting question. I think it's coming from everywhere. I don't think it's just parents, although I do think that parents can subtly reinforce. I heard a speaker once talking about how many girls grow up being told constantly how beautiful they are. Oh, you're so cute. You're the adult women in their life complaining about their bodies. So what they learn is that a child's body is socially acceptable, but a woman's body is something to be feared. And this lecturer was arguing that that might be part of the reason that anorexia tends to have its onset in adolescence when you start to develop because it's trying not to inhabit a woman's body, which I thought was interesting. So I do think we should role model the behavior that we want to see. And be positive about our own bodies in front of young people. I think with boys, so I've been talking to them about what strength is, not emotional strength, but fitness strength, because some of the physically strongest people I have ever known have been professional dancers who don't look super muscly. Because actually, if you can see a muscle, it's not really making you any stronger. Aesthetically, you've worked on it to look a certain way. So I say to them that if you genuinely want to get stronger, then your fitness priorities need to be different. If you just want to have a massive neck, fine. I'm not here to tell you what to do with your body, but you need to admit to yourself and others that you just want to have a massive neck for no reason.
Speaker 3I love that. I'm going to steal that, but I promise I'll give you credit when I say it. Oh, Natasha, it's been so incredible. I could talk to you for ages. But just to finish off, can I just ask if you're going to give, now we will include the link. My view is, my personal view is, I think we should be buying this as parents, regardless of our children's age. And maybe buy two copies, one that you read, because I think actually we need to work through it because we need to understand and work through the exercises in terms of the relationship that we have with our clicks. And then also a copy when it's appropriate for our children, because obviously, you know, and it's always the best time to be reading these things is before your child reaches that stage of development. So primary school parents, read a copy now. But if you were going to give parents one piece of advice based on conversations that you've had with teens around just navigate, navigating what can feel very much like a huge minefield, what's the one, I mean, there's loads of things you could say, but if you could only say one thing, what would it be?
Speaker 4I think it's teacher children's scientific literacy. Everybody thinks they're an expert on everything these days. And some people are so convincing. And yet I say in the book, when you interview a genuine expert, as I have done many times on my radio show, they are far more convincing than you think. And I think that's a really good thing. And they are far more likely to say, well, the evidence isn't entirely clear on that. Or I don't know, genuine experts say, I don't know, all the time. So anybody who is saying to you, look, I've got a pie chart, and it shows that the earth is flat, you know, is probably lying. So teaching them about, you know, just checking sources and understanding that just because somebody has a graph or is wearing a white coat, they're not necessarily who they say they are, I think is
Speaker 3super important. Oh, that's such that's so helpful, because critical thinking is a life skill, we're going to need it when we're when our children are working and all the rest of it. Natasha, thank you so, so much. That has just been just a wonderful conversation, as I expected it to be. Thank you so much. Thank you.
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