How to Be a Great Friend, Para-Social Relationships, and Why You Shouldn't Die Alone

I think I know my Halloween costume drew. We were just joking about it before we went live. I think I'm gonna be a win sock. Go stand in front of a car dealership. - You got the frame for it, yeah. - You know, since I lost all the weight, I'm like, shockingly lazy. - The win's gonna blow you around, yeah. You know what I did last year? So I had this giant broccoli costume that we used for one of the YouTube videos. And I put that on and I looked absolutely absurd. Just this massive two meter tall broccoli walking around. And what I really wanted to do because we get in our neighborhood here, we get a lot of kids coming to the house. I tried to convince Fernanda to do this. I was like, I want you to cook a ton of broccoli. So like, instead of like giving the kids candy. - No, you didn't. - What we'll do is I'll like, I'll open the doors, a giant broccoli, and then I'll hand them a giant plate full of broccoli. And I thought this was hysterical. I was like, this is too fun. Like, we're gonna record this. It's gonna be, it's gonna go viral on TikTok. Anyway, she beat it. - You didn't even try it. - My broccoli dreams were destroyed in the cradle. - Well, they never, maybe this year. - You would have traumatized some kids. I think you better not do that. - There's still hope, Drew. There's still hope. - It's like, that's as bad as like handing out toothbrushes or something like that. Like, that's worse actually. - There's some steamed broccoli. - What the fuck? - Steamed broccoli served by a broccoli. - It's the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson. - Anyway, what are we, what are we giving a fuck about today? - Oh, Mark. - Or not giving a fuck about. What are we giving, what's happening? - We're giving a fuck this week. I'm giving a fuck anyway about friends. - Friendship. - Friendship. That's right. We've talked about this a little bit before. - You just flew back to Colorado. - I did, I did. - For dinner. - Yeah, so I've been split my time between L.A. and Colorado. And I was out here and there was an anniversary dinner for some friends in my back home. And I took a flight back. I didn't even ask you. I was like, I'm gonna ask for forgiveness rather than permission on this one. - Probably. - Yeah, I don't think you were scared. - But, yeah, I was like, oh, you left. - It got me, you know, I was talking with some people. I was like, yeah, I flew back and it was like a two hour dinner that we had on a Friday night. - I'm gonna be honest. Like, when you told me, like an anniversary dinner, I thought it was like your parents' 50th year or something. - Right, right. - Or like, oh, this must be something now. - A big deal. - Yeah. - The fact that you literally got on a plane to attend a dinner for two hours, two things. One, you're a much better friend than I am. (laughing) Like, hands down, bar none. But two, I mean, it's given, you know, sitting at LAX for hours, dealing with the airline bullshit. Not to mention the, you know, the money, like the cost and everything. So, my question to you is, was it worth it? Like, how often do you do things like this? - I mean, I, and is it worth it? Does it pay off? Okay, is it worth it? - Yes, it was. - If your psychopath, like me, and purely looks at human interaction as a transactional, is it worth it? (laughing) - It was worth it, but you're right. There was a lot of that, like I was like, oh my, I mean, I slept like shit last week and it was just, it was the end of the week. And we had a long week and going to LAX is the last thing you want to do on a Friday. And I was just like, oh my God. That was even text my friends, like, yeah, I'm really tired. I'm sorry if I'm not, whatever. As soon as I got to the dinner, everything just like, it was a beautiful evening. They were able to open the doors at the restaurant, open the windows at the restaurant. It was beautiful. We had, we sat, it was a small group of people, we sat for a few hours and just, yeah. And that was worth it. - So it was worth it. - Absolutely worth it. It was. - It's funny because I imagine most people wouldn't do something. - Right. - Especially in this day and age, like, you know, maybe like 40, 30, 40 years ago, but like, I don't know. Like that, it is kind of unimaginable. - Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, here's the thing, is that, you know, I don't, I'm single right now. I don't have kids. I don't have like real big obligations to anyone else, but myself. And so I'm like. (clears throat) (both laughing) - No obligations. - I was gonna say, I have a flexible job. - Flexible working skills. - Before I was really cut off. (both laughing) So I, you know, I have a lot of things working in my favor. That allows me to do these kind of things. - Sure. - Right? - Sure. - And there is also a cost associated with maintaining these relationships that I've decided to invest in. - Yeah. - And yeah, to me, it's worth it. - Yeah. - It's absolutely worth it. Now, the cost thing too, I had a whole bunch of airline miles, so it really actually didn't cost me money to do that. I mean, there's little travel expenses I got on top of that or whatever, and I had to use those miles. But I understand not everybody has that, that access or that, that, that, they don't have the privileges. - Sure, sure. - Sure, I get that. But that said, it's just, it's something that I've chosen to give a fuck about, is my friends. - Yeah. - And I mean, I find it admirable. - Because I feel like this is something, it's funny, because you often hear, like there are people who choose to invest very heavily in like a romantic relationship. - Yes. - There are people who invest very heavily in like, a professional opportunity or professional relationship. It, at least in our culture. I mean, this is probably, it's probably different in some other parts of the world. But like investing, making that choice of like, I am going to highly prioritize my friendships and really go, no pun intended, the extra mile for them. I think it's not only rare today, but it, like, I do find it really interesting and maybe like, more of us should be doing it. Like, I definitely, like, this is an area of my life where I'm like, I probably should invest more in my friendships. Like, I'm a workaholic, I'm a homebody. Like, I sometimes struggle to just like, follow up with people with a text, you know? Much less like, get on a fucking plane and go to their anniversary. So, this is definitely an area of my life that I wish I gave more fucks, or I was better at giving fucks. So, and it is a rare thing. Like, I don't know anybody else who does stuff like that regularly. Yeah, and you asked if I, if I do it, I've done, I've gone on plane to go see friends plenty of times. Yeah, throughout my adult life I've done this. And even like, if there's times I didn't have much money and I was like, you know what, screw it, I'm gonna go do this a wedding that's halfway across the country or more. Yeah, I've done that. And to me, it's just like, yeah, 'cause that's what you do. Yeah, that is what, like to me, it's so self-evident. Like, if you want to, like, nurture these friendships, you have to nurture these friendships, right? I think a lot of people, you know, there's like, oh, sorry, I'm an LA. And I, you know, I've got work stuff going on, can't make it. To me, that's kind of like, well, then you can't really complain about not having friends in that situation. Do you ever run into, 'cause sometimes like, I will feel inspired and like, wanna reach out or like, you know, maybe I'll like pop back to New York for a friend's thing or go see somebody, you know, it's like, so-and-so's birthday or whatever. But I don't know, like, it's, especially if I haven't seen somebody in a couple of years, haven't talked to him a whole lot. Like, I don't know, sometimes I worry, I'm like, well, is it gonna be weird? I've gotten over that. Okay. I just go for it now. Anytime that comes up for me, I just shoot somebody a text. Like, anytime I start thinking about somebody, and that's been more recent, I think, anytime that pops up, I'd be like, hey, just was just thinking about this thing that we did or whatever a while back, how's it going? I don't hesitate with that as much anymore, for sure. What would you say is like the drew Bernie principles of being a good friend or like fostering good friendships? Number one is showing up. Show up. It is, it's showing up. And I was, I was actually talking with my dad about this not too long ago, and he went to like a funeral or something that was within the family. And it was kind of, it was like, not like a immediate family. You know, it was a little bit removed and he showed up and people were like, oh, it's good to see you. And I'm surprised we saw you. And he's like, what are you talking about? Like, that's what we do. We show up. And I think I just, from a younger age, it was like, you just show up for people. Yeah. That's rule number one right there. It's so funny because it's so obvious. And I remember, you and I did an episode earlier this year about adult friendships. And it's like, when you look at the research on how friendships are made, like the number one thing is frequency of exposure. Like how, literally, how often you physically see or speak to a person. And it's been, it's been wild to me to see how much, how true that is or even just small little gestures of showing up in different ways. Like it means a lot to people. Yeah. It means a lot. And I mentioned that I think on that episode too, where I have reconnected with childhood friends and either just through reaching out with them or getting on a plane and going and seeing them. Yeah. And it's a completely different relationship then. You get like, it's like a new friendship that you're going to start again as an adult. And it's just, I don't know. I'm not sure if I have any good tips on making friends, but I know like keeping friends. This is that's kind of what I'm talking about here. So principle number one, showing up, what else? Being first, like acting first. I think putting yourself out there first, always being like showing vulnerability, maybe what it is, or telling somebody like how much, they mean to you not waiting for that from them inviting inviting them the stuff inviting yeah yes reaching out following up yeah you know we have I a group of my friends back in Colorado we have like a dinner club and we kind of get off track every now and then but it's about once a month we try to get together and you it's it's so great because now everybody's like oh no I want a host I want a host you know I like now everybody's like they they realize what it is like offering up being the first to offer is actually like the right move here yeah and and and showing up for everybody in that way yeah it's really really important yeah what would you say so the going first thing like yeah I'm bad at that and I don't know why like it's funny you know I had a lot of social anxiety when I was younger and I there's definitely sometimes like some remnants of social anxiety and it it's funny because it really only pops up in very specific context but for some reason one of those contexts is like invitations reaching out to somebody I haven't talked to in like six months following up with somebody and it's so silly like I don't know like I have these moments where I'm like I don't know I feel like a high school kid all over again who's like worried that the cool kids not gonna like want to hang out with me so that's something that I need to get I need to like practice and get better and I imagine it is a practice you just the more you do it easier 100% yeah yeah I've definitely found that over the years yeah yeah and I think one other thing though too is just like help people maybe that's the same as going first I don't know but just if you can help somebody with something like people really really appreciate that now again this is like a maintenance thing kind of a friendship maintenance thing but you know I've had several of my friends tell me you know like hey if actually the couple that I want to go see for the anniversary they said if we ever got into a situation where we were in jail yeah or you know anything like that we would call you we would definitely call you because we know that you're you're gonna show up but you're also gonna have the ability to help us out help with something bury the body and yes I would be very good at that dispose of the evidence I do have a lot of shovels so yeah I'm gonna do that I'd probably call you for that yeah yeah yeah it's it's really fun it's just the more you give the more you get yeah it really is that's really it yeah that's a true thing all right moment of truth though okay do you ever get frustrated because I imagine a lot of people don't reciprocate these principles do you ever find yourself getting frustrated with people now no I don't think I do it's really unconditional like you just kind of give and you're like if people don't reach out back to you or do things back for you you like you don't get frustrated or resentful or no I mean if it was something I guess if it was like a huge sum of money or something like that and then they just never talked to me again maybe I would but it's never like that I just find that I I don't know I just what else is there to do by help people in life honestly what else is there to do I know that sounds cheesy shit and but seriously when it comes down to it like what what else is there to do we're gonna photoshop like you and a so cheesy and a mother Teresa non outfit and then putting the cheesy curse of font like the what else is there to do but help people I'm not okay yes I okay I'm virtue signal yes yes you got me fine we'll put some PBS music under it like no light a candle but it's not even that it should I mean like you're not sold a door open for somebody you're not like even down to that like just what else is there to do but help people I mean I'm with you like and I think ultimately like philosophically the things that feel meaningful in the long run are the things that we do for other people the impact that we have on people's lives and the relationships we build from that impact it's so funny too because like it is a lot of these things they do sound very cliche but I also think you're a little bit ahead of the curve I think people are just too cynical these days like it's just 100% it's just too it's too easy to like sit in your phone and look at a billion things and disagree with everybody about everything and just be like that's lame I'm not going to go do that and and make up an excuse to sit at home and you know jerk off with the cat like it's it's this is this is what our social lives have come to I mean I don't know you have a dog maybe I don't know like whatever whatever you're into hamster whatever you're into whatever you the catches in the corner watching what is fucking going on here to back to the mother Teresa let's stick with the mother Teresa okay but yeah I think it's too easy yeah to do that and and I definitely again I feel my I feel myself getting sucked into that cynical vortex right well yeah the conversation with John he talked about this too right like that that television probably it didn't rot our brains but it probably destroyed social capital isolated us it isolated us and I would say you know modern digital technology does that even more yeah so absolutely yeah that's that that's another goes back to the show and up thing but I I have a default basically to just say yes whenever but somebody invites me to something I kind of just I say yes yeah and then you know it's it's one of those things you get to the day and you're like oh I said yes to this thing that happens all time and I still go and nine times out of 10 I'm so glad that I went yeah 100 percent so just yeah putting yourself out there getting going I don't know though okay so that that though is again that's a lot of like friendship maintenance stuff sure and again I have the capacity and like the bandwidth to be able to do that yeah because I don't have these other big relationship obligations in my life right now yeah I mean if you got married it ruined all this well okay so is that is that true because I think a lot of people say well it's nice you must be nice you don't have you know a partner and kids and this job that is just draining and you know I think so relationships and kids it's not that it gets harder it just it there's more complexity yeah every time you you make a friend or meet somebody there's kind of like this this internal process as you figure out okay does my wife like his wife like is this gonna be like a couple's friendship which you have the like that's a thing is it like oh this is one of my guy friends or this is you know this is gonna be like her friend or this is my friend or whatever and then I think when you introduce kids there's like an even like there's a third layer of that complexity which is does our kid get along with their kid are they close in age do they play well together then it's do we get along with the parents could we travel with them you know it oftentimes what you find is and this gets frustrated when you're when you're when you're married is you know it's like my wife will meet somebody and they get along great they become they they start to become really good friends and then I go meet the husband and it's like we have nothing in common and we have nothing to talk about and so then it kind of becomes this question of like okay do he and I just kind of like quietly suffer through an awkward you know dinner or weekend or whatever so that our wives can be happier have fun or do they just go off and be friends on their own so there's there's a lot of like I don't know situations like that but I think the principle is the same you show up for people you go first you reach out first and you be helpful right right yeah and again it goes back to the like understanding the trade-offs I think if there there are people who probably do say you know they say oh it must be nice not to have kids not to you know be married and unattached all these things and whatever there's also I understand that trade-off though I I don't have a stable partner and that security that that's that's there for me and instead I've put that energy into some friendships you know which you know when it comes down to it you know my friends who are married or whatever they have that stable sure one person they can go to for everything I don't have that yeah so I've traded that off I will say it like it can work in the other direction too like it is really cool like when you do find it's hard to find but when you do find that couple where you both like them both equally like and they both like you both equally it's awesome yeah it's a really cool thing but it's it's hard to find yeah well that was kind of my next point I was gonna make was the finding depth over breadth like if you can find that couple and you know you don't need to find 10 couples that you can hang out with you just we probably need one to two couples that you guys can hang out with regularly and I think you're gonna be set you know I I joke I don't have like tons and tons of friends I have a group of a core group of of people that I can turn to yeah and then you know there then there's kind of a concentric rings you know the circus going further out but I think focusing more on depth of relationships especially as you get older is definitely the way to go. Drew Bernie goes deep inside just a few people cut that and now a word from our sponsor all right and we're back. Drew has come back from his submergence. What's on the docket today Drew? What is Brilliant or Bullshitty today? What are we? Brilliant or Bullshit Mark, can YouTubers take the place of some of your casual friends? YouTubers, content creators, personal or public figures? What do you think of this? I am the only emotional sustenance anybody needs. Like and subscribe. Yeah, like and subscribe. - This makes that like button. - I too will be your friend. - Wait, no, is this really a thing? Like being too, like what is this? - So there's this study, it came out in nature too. So, you know, high-impact journal. - Prestigious journal. - Prestigious journal, which not, doesn't mean it's right. But, you know, people perceive what they call parasocial relationships, which are basically one-sided relationships. So like a YouTuber, a celebrity, fictional characters even too. People can actually, they report anyway that those relationships that they have, those one-sided relationships they have, are actually more fulfilling than just like a casual acquaintance in person interaction that they might have, or relationship. You might have a repeated relationship with somebody who's kind of considered like a casual friend. - Okay. - They actually find it more emotionally fulfilling to have a one-sided relationship with a public figure of some kind. - That makes sense to me. - Okay. - That actually might, and all kidding aside, that actually does make sense to me. Only because it's a casual friendship or a casual acquaintance. - Right, so it wasn't the case with close-person relationships with the most valuable, right. That makes sense to me because as somebody who, like if you watch streamers, for instance, it's, I'm a huge gamer as most, most of my fans know. I've been watching Twitch almost daily for the last 10 years. I follow a lot of big streamers. I like watching, to me it's actually very fascinating to watch streams, like watch the chat, the community around a streamer and how they interact with them. And then there's been a few streamers that I've been fans of and I've interacted with. So I get that because it is very, like the streaming culture and I think to a less, like TikTok feels a little bit this way, to a lesser extent, I think some of the way that people use Instagram through Instagram Stories or Snapchat, a lot of these forms of social media, it is extremely parasocial. It's basically optimized for a parasocial relationship. Most of the social media stuff that I do or that we do, it's very unidirectional, it's broadcast. So it's like I post stuff I write on Twitter and Instagram and we craft these highly-produced YouTube videos and then we produce these podcasts. This is probably the closest thing we have to like a parasocial relationship with the audience. But like there's a lot of social media out there that is very much geared and optimized to make people feel like they're hanging out with a fun and cool friend. I understand too why it's more satisfying because it requires no investment. It's always entertaining. Like the person you're a fan of or whatever, like they entertain you, they make you happy, they make you laugh and there's zero downside or social risk. Whereas when you meet a stranger in acquaintance, let's say you go to a birthday party or something and you meet somebody new, there's all this awkward stuff that happens of like, am I saying the right thing? Was that joke weird? Am I being funny? Like does this person like me? There's a lot of the awkward stuff that you have to feel out when you meet a new person and you're not really sure if they like you or not. So I get it, I actually totally get it. - Yeah. - I believe it. I don't think this is bullshit. I think it's brilliant. - Well, and the authors of this study too, they kind of theorized that there's kind of this shift going on right now. And it was, it's for a long time in the kind of media research landscape, it's been thought that people kind of glom onto these relationships, these parasocial relationships. - Sure. - They don't have anything else in their life. They're using it in place of something else in their life. They're saying actually this might be like kind of a healthy way to feel like you have some sense of either belonging or in this case what it really is, is that they feel like these relationships are at least responsive to them. Not directly like they're not responding to them, but they're like, they're responsive to my needs because they're talking about things that are important to me or they're making content about things that are important to me. - And they are the person on in aggregate. Again, I'm thinking of streamers here. In aggregate they are, like you are part of 2000 people in the chat that the streamer is responding to. - Ah, yeah. - So it's like, if the chat kind of like gets upset about something and there starts, you know, trashing the streamer or making jokes or whatever, like the streamer is gonna react. So it is, there is some form of interaction that's going on. And I also agree with that too. Like I definitely, again, like there are a number of people that I follow on social media that I have, somewhat of a pair of social relationship. Like I'm a fan, I enjoy just kind of sitting around watching him play a game. I think they're funny, like I think they're communities interesting or entertaining. And to me, it definitely supplements my social life. It's not a replacement for my social life. - Yeah. - So I get that too. - Okay. - Yeah. - Well another interesting finding from this study was, they did three different studies in this. And the last one they did was they kind of, well first of all, they gave people a self-esteem questionnaire kind of divided them into high and low self-esteem. And then they had them write about a time in which they were socially threatened in some way, you know, like being ostracized or neglected in some way from a group or whatever it was. And then they asked them another series of questions about these pair of social relationships with YouTubers or whatever that. The people with high self-esteem still thought, you know, like, yes, during these times I would, like they would help us wage some of this, like social threat that I have. The people with low self-esteem just consistently, doesn't matter if they're socially threatened or not, they consistently turn towards them. So I think that might be hinting at the beginnings of a toxic relationship with this. So I'm wondering about the limits here. What do you think about that? Obviously, like if somebody's crazy and they're stalking, I'm not talking about that level. - They're definitely unhealthy pair of social relationships. And I definitely do think there are streamers and creators who kind of foster a toxic relationship with their audience, you know, they kind of thrive on anti-social behavior. And then the audience kind of gets the vicarious thrill of the anti-social behavior through the streamer. And yeah, I think it can just, it's another case of like, attracting a lot of very low self-esteem people and then like having them live vicariously through your risk taking and your like, egregious behavior to kind of like get them, I guess, hooked on your personality to a certain extent. There's a lot of culty type stuff that goes on. I think if you, I think it's kind of impossible to talk about this without bringing up only fans and just like the insane numbers behind only fans. - I, not that I have. - I'm familiar with only fans. I'm actually, in seriousness, I'm not familiar with only fans. - I've never been, I've never been, I've never tried it. - I've never signed up for only fans. But I've heard stories of just like, insane shit that's happened on only fans and like, absurd amounts of money that are paid to usually women for like very toxic behaviors. I do know that like there are a number of models on only fans that just like have entire teams of fake people messaging their fans on their behalf, like flirting with these like desperate lonely guys. So as with any human relationship, there are, there's of course permutations of toxicity within parasocial relationships. But I do think that the parasocial thing, I think it's very interesting. And I think this is one of the few cases that I think social media is a market improvement over say, television or film. - Okay. - Because in the TV era, people would have parasocial relationships with just this like fictional image on a screen, you know. It's like people would become a Tom Cruise fan and obsess about Tom Cruise. When really it's like all you, you just saw him in risky business and top gun. Like you don't, you literally know nothing about the guy. Like he, I mean he is, he turned out to be a head case and like nobody knew. Where it's social media, you're at, you are, maybe you're not getting like the full authentic version of the, of the person on social media. But you are getting some facet of their actual personality and you are, it's driven much more by authenticity. Like the people who tend to become famous online, they tend to be famous for being who they are. Not because they're playing a character in a movie or not because they're like, you know, on stage performing something. It's like they're in their room. They're being who they are. They've got this quirky or interesting personality. They're like really attractive or entertaining in some way. And so, and they, they're able to foster an ethos within their community that people like being a part of. And so I think that is actually like a much better form of pair of social relationship than say when we were growing up and just like had fucking posters of Cindy Crawford. Right, yeah. You're obsessing over some random celebrity from, yeah. Totally, okay, yeah. So, what do you, what is this though? Like obviously we have not evolved to, to even be able to keep up with an environment like this. Why, what is, what is being hacked about our brains do you think in this situation? So I find it, it is very interesting that it, like people rate them higher than they're just casual in-person relationships. but lower than their close connections. And yet there's a lot of loneliness going on and people say they want more friends. Is it just, is it, I don't, what is it, what is it hacking in our brains? - Well, I think it removes the friction. Like it allows you to feel socially connected and part of something with like, again, with zero friction, zero cost. The problem is is that the ceiling on any pair of social relationship is extremely low. - Mm-hmm. - Right, like it, so it's easy to get in and get a dose of it. But, you know, the satisfaction that you get in week one or month one is probably, like it's never, it's probably never gonna get much higher than that. Whereas with a casual acquaintance, you know, meeting that random person at a party, having those awkward conversations, stumbling through a couple like weird jokes or whatever, that can eventually evolve into a very deep and satisfying friendship. Like the ceiling on in-person interactions is infinitely high, whereas the ceiling on online pair of social interactions is extremely low. It's just easy to hit that ceiling. So I think it's path-a-least resistance. - Okay, okay. - I mean, we've talked about this internally, about the podcast. Podcasting's very different in that people listen to it while they're doing something else. And, you know, it's like, when we make a YouTube video, people are just sitting down the watch the YouTube video. When we write, like when I write a book, people are just sitting down and reading the book. But with podcasting, you know, most people, statistically, most people are listening to this right now in their cars, cleaning the kitchen, taking out the trash, in the gym. And so there is, I, one of the lessons, you know, we talked a couple episodes ago about lessons we learned from the first year of podcasting. One of the lessons I definitely learned is that like this medium is, it's much less about, you know, like, sexy hooks and like hitting people in the face with a bunch of value. And, you know, it's much more, you're kind of hanging out with people as they go about their lives. And it, you're like kind of a companion to them. And so, I mean, it's definitely a reality in like what we work on and think about for sure. - Well, and I mean, I do it as well. The podcast I listen to, I see it as 100%. - This is a parasolial relationship, 100%. And so that's why, yeah, I'm calling brilliant on this one too, it's not bullshit. It's all brilliant. On that note, we'll be right back. All right, we're back. What sort of questions we have this week, Drew? - Well, I have a couple of questions. One from Julie. This was submitted on YouTube. She asked, "Is it possible to have a fulfilling life without friends?" The data would suggest no. - And to the, yeah. - Hard no, actually. - Yeah, pretty hard no. We are very much wired for social relationships, like a group being a part of a group, feeling a sense of belonging. Like, if you look up anything about psychological needs, like belonging is one of the first and foremost ones towards mental health. There's, I don't know how true this is. I don't know where the statistic originated, but there is a statistic that I've heard forever, which is that social isolation is just as unhealthy for you, or has just as much of an effect on your life expectancy as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. - Yeah, I've seen that some more, too, yeah. - Which is pretty mind blowing, yeah. So yeah, I do think friends, or some sort of community, or group that you feel like you're a part of, is absolutely fundamental. - I think the word you said there was belonging to, the thing I had to figure out was, I felt like I could fit in in a lot of different places, but it didn't feel like I belonged in a lot of different places. And that was all dependent on the people. It was all dependent on friendships. I've lived in a lot of different spots, and you know, I felt like, yeah, I can fit in here. That's fair, I can survive, I'll be fine. - Yeah. - Having a sense of belonging, though, I think is that that's next level. What is it? I just feel like I can be myself when I feel like I'm in a place where I belong. I just, I don't feel, and I'm sure you feel it's like in your marriage, you've mentioned this. - Sure. - You feel like you can just, there's no pretense, there's no guard up. - Yeah. - I feel like I can just be me without having to perform without having to prove myself in any way, either too. It's just like a level of unconditionality there that I can feel. And I think, for me anyway, that was developed over time. - Yeah. - It wasn't a thing that came, I know some people will go somewhere and like, I belong here, this is it. - Right. - I know it. - And whether that turns out to be true or not, I have no idea. But there's people who feel that instantly. For me, it's a slow burn thing. - Interesting. - Yeah. It's funny, because this is actually very like, this is very relevant in my life at the moment, because my wife really misses New York. - Yeah. - And she is, we've had this conversation where she says, I feel like I belong there. And I don't belong here. And I feel kind of the opposite. I feel like in New York, I can fit in in New York. I can do the New York thing. But here I feel like myself much more. And to me, and my conversations with her and like really digging into this and like what this is, we kind of discovered that a lot of it's reflective of personal values. Like for me, it's L.A. I feel like not even L.A. Just like Southern California, it nudges me. The environment nudges me into being a better version of myself. - That's an important interior. - Whereas in New York, the environment nudges me into being a worse version of myself. It kind of nudges me into a lot of my addictions and compulsions and anxieties. - So what was the decision around moving from New York to L.A. What was the conversation around that? Because you had to have been thinking of the trade-offs. What was the conversation with that with your wife? I mean, no, she's from Brazil. - Yeah. - You're from Texas. - New York is cold as shit in the winter. - I mean, you know, did you're like, oh God, I'm tired of these winners and we're just gonna move in. You didn't take all the other things around it or? - It's funny. I have a very contrary intake on weather, which is I feel like. So the two things that I, here's a hill, I will die on. - Okay. - If you love where you live or if you feel like you belong where you live, weather and taxes don't matter. - Yeah. - Anytime I hear somebody start discussing taxes or weather, I'm like, they should move because they clearly don't love where they are anymore, right? - Another great-- - Can you imagine moving somewhere from here? Oh, the taxes. I'm like, what the fuck? Get some rich friends. - Oh yeah, that comes up all the time. - Which kills me, 'cause I'm like, dude, like you're really gonna uproot your whole life to save like, you know, 8% on your income. You're already making a bajillion dollars. But it's funny, actually, I think Derek Sivers actually said this to me privately once. He said, he said, everywhere in the world has the same tax rate. You just pay in different ways. - Oh, that's a hundred percent. He would know too. He's lived all over. - He's paid taxes in like five different countries. - Yeah. - So yeah, I'm definitely a staunch believer of that. But like, the conversation around leaving New York, it was very, I mean, New York has, it burns you out pretty hard. Like, it's overwhelming. There's so much going on. She and I also live there during the pandemic. We went through, like, we went through, I mean, we had been there for six years. We went through the pandemic. We had a bunch of like, very bad experiences with where we lived, which New York is absolutely famous for its atrocious housing and services. So like, we just had a nightmare scenario with one of the apartments we lived in. And so we, we came out of it just like, we went to New Zealand to, 'cause I was shooting, I was doing the movie. So we spent a few months down there. And while we were down there, we were like, we gotta get out of New York. This is, it's too much, we need to leave. And we actually spent a lot of time in New Zealand. And we went to a part of the South Island. We spent most of our time in Auckland. And we went to Wellington. We went part of the South Island. And she was like, is there anywhere in the US that's kind of like this? 'Cause I could do this. I was like, then it's Southern California. That's kind of it, right? So yeah, then we came out here. We spent a few weeks here that summer. We looked at houses. We hung out with a bunch of friends and we loved it. But it's funny because there is a, you know, there's the honeymoon phase of a location and say a group of friends. And then there's the actual relationship with the place you live and with the group of friends. And for me, the honeymoon phase turned into like a very great relationship. I've got my gripes with that relationship. There's a downside to living anywhere. But, you know, for her, it's, I think it's, she realized it's like, it's not a perfect fit. So it is interesting. That's a question I've been thinking about quite a bit lately. It's like, what is belonging? And it's, 'cause there's a certain aspect of it, you can't control. It's just, you just feel it. Yeah. Yeah, you do. And for the longest time, I just thought, well, I don't belong anywhere. That's how long I felt. And then once you do, you're like, oh God. Yeah, I know, like what? This is what I've been missing the whole time. and it's sad to me that a lot of people don't find that. - I would. Compare that feeling to relationships like it's it's Well, okay. That's the other question. Okay. Can you be happy without a romantic relationship? Yes, you can I would agree with that. Again, the data bags. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's plenty plenty of people who are single So here's the one that this one comes up We had a we had a question come in through the newsletter recently that I did not answer in the newsletter Because I told Val I was like, I'm gonna write eight pages if I try to answer this, but A number of questions have come through around this around sex like I would throw it there Well, we can throw a third question to the end of this can you be happy without sex that that question actually came up to you I didn't include it here, but yeah, yeah, so let's do romantic relationships first. So You could come you can totally be happy throughout your life Completely single without a romantic relationship that said people in Romantic relationships. It's it's It cuts both ways. So if the relationships good you are you will be happier than you were if you were single and if the relationship is bad You'll be less happy than you you were fucking common sense, but it's it's the sort of thing like it's You know, I guess risk reward type thing. So it's better to be single than in a bad relationship But it's better to be in a good relate like on average you will be happier in a good relationship than no relationship Well, what do you think about turning your friends into romantic relationships? Wait, dude as I think that's a great way to do it. I don't know, but I would argue that so okay So it's funny when I when I the the fun thing about getting married is that everybody you've ever known Every old person you've ever known It starts just giving you unsolicited advice. Okay Like what to do what not to do You actually learn a lot about your like extended family about some of the shit that they say to you but it was interesting you know Fernand I we noticed that like when we got married All of the old people in our families who were still married and still happy They also the same thing they said the friendship has to come first the front like if you're not friends Nothing else will last or like The best way it was put to me is that everything else is gonna come and go you know the The sex is gonna come and go the attractiveness is gonna come and go like Their career is gonna do great. It's gonna do bad. Your career is gonna do great It's gonna everything's gonna gonna be in flux all the time The only thing that's gonna keep everything like tethered together is a strong friendship If the friendship's not there you're gonna just be tossed You know like in a in a storm. Yeah, so that made a lot of sense to me and and I you know as somebody who's been married 12 or been with her for 12 years that feels very true. It's like Every year's different our lives change constantly. She and I both change quite a bit We're both very different people than we were 10 years ago But the friendship is like what holds everything together right right? Yeah, and I mean I want the anniversary party I went back for an anniversary dinner. They'd been together 15 years Since they were like babies or like babies late teens are like in college. Yeah, yeah, and That they say the same thing. There's no way you can make it through that without being really good friends. I feel like any Any happy couple I've ever talked to about this. They all say that it's the friendship has to come first And it's funny. It's similar. It's like the taxes so sex is the taxes of relationships like anytime people start complaining about sex It's like okay, there's no friendship there like like they've lost the friendship because I have found that like when when People are unhappy in the relationship That's when that's when they start getting upset about about sex. That's when they start getting upset about like He spends this money and you know, I think we should be saving more and like you know or like She should take the kids to school more often. They start arguing about chores. They start arguing about like You know all like the the kind of surface level stuff right that if there's a a happy stable friendship there Yeah, you'll argue about it, but it sorts itself out because it's like when you're happy together You're both willing to to compromise and like be like you know what I'll I'll take the kids to school Yeah, you know, I'll do this like she'll do that you know whatever But when there's not a friendship there it becomes a power struggle and then it's like well You know, I'm not gonna give this up because you didn't give that up and you're not giving me this So I'm not gonna give you that but if you give me that I'll give you this right like when you treat your friend that way like no That's like you'd fucking stop being friends with that person right but for some reason in a romantic relationship A lot of people think that this is like completely justified behavior right and it's because they're not friends. Yeah, yeah I would also say to the best relationship advice like the best dating advice is to go make new friends Yeah, they're not necessarily even to date them, but you're gonna meet more people. Yes, that way And then you also start from that like friends friendship sure as a priority type of thing You see how relationships with just friends work and then to get into relationships after that I think that's I don't know I don't think I've ever really turned a like a good friend into a relationship That's never really happened with me, but I've met a lot of friends. Yeah, I met a lot of people I've dated through through friends I feel I've heard of that happening. I don't think it's very common But I would be very curious to see if if there's any data out there on marriage success based on how you meet I imagine there is yeah, I imagine meeting through friends is probably the most successful way to like find a partner um I imagine maybe meeting through work is another one um, I imagine dating apps is It's hit rate is not great. Yeah, I don't know we'd have to look into that. That's a good one to look up Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe that's the next brilliant or bullshit thing. Yeah, it could be all right cool Well, that's all for this episode Be sure to submit your questions you can either comment on youtube or send them to podcast at markmanston.net Please be sure to follow the show like and subscribe do all that good stuff it helps us know that we're doing a good job helps us Feel like we have a pair of social relationship with you. What is the weekly wisdom this week? Comes from the great philosopher Bruce Lee. Love is like a friendship caught on fire. Woo very fitting fire emoji Fire emojis All right, I'm that note. See you guys next week. Thanks for listening The subtle art of makin' the fuck podcast is produced by drew burning. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura Jessica choice our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week