How to Art with Kate Bryan

Welcome to the artist advisory hotline, your connection to the art world and your higher self with nearly 15 years of experience working in New York City galleries and a decade of deep dive into mindset and spirituality. I'm your host Marina Prescreenter. Consider me your holistic guidance counselor to the art world. Now let's transform you into the artist that you've always desired to be because you truly shift into the next level with your mind and spirit are aligned with the growth in your career. So here we go. Hello, hotties. I'm your host Marina Granger. So happy to be back here on the hotline with you all. We have such a special episode. We've got Kate Brian and Kate is just she's a freaking angel. She is an angel. She wrote a book called How to Art and it's not her first book. It's actually her third book about art because she is a self proclaimed art addict and she has to be if she is going to be curating one of the largest private collections or sort of semi private public collections in the world, which is the Soho House art collection. I am so honored to have her on today to talk about the book that she has just put out but also to literally bring the art world down to earth and give us a nice hug and make us feel really, really good and included because even though you can be working in the art world for ages, you can be part of it. No matter how your level of experience is, you know that there are times when you feel like you're walking on eggshells. I got to tell you I still sometimes walk into a gallery and this happens less and less now because I've done it for so long but I walk into galleries and I wonder oh my gosh, am I spending enough time looking at this work of art? What if I get it? Do I get it too soon or maybe I don't understand it right away? Anyway, I still have the weird feels. We all have the weird feels but I have way less of them after reading how to art and you will too. I tune into this episode where we talk to Kate, we talk to her intention behind writing this book so much wisdom that she shares with us is just like so incredible. She's written two other books. One was, hold on, I have to like make sure I get the title right. One was Bright Stars and it was written in 2021 and talks about the lives and legacies of artists who have died like way too young. So that is really interesting and then the other book that she's written is The Art of Love that came out in 2019 and it explores, you know, these sometimes like explosive romantic relationships between artist couples or maybe non-romantic too. So it's really fun to dive into the art world through Kate's eyes and her vision is just incredible. She's also been the juror or like involved with that. There's like a British show called Portrait Artist of the Year and then Landscape Artist of the Year and she's been involved with both of them. It's on the Sky Arts channel. I don't eat it. I can't, oh, I can't speak to that too well because I haven't clicked through it. I haven't been in London but I'm sure it is so cool. And if you have watched it shoot me a DM, let me know. I'm really glad though I didn't before interviewing her because I would be even more star-struck. I was like, oh my god, I can't believe you're on here. So she's so cool and her and I have this other connection, right? Not just art, not just, you know, literally having this mission of not letting anyone feel small in the art world, right? This is not the place to let yourself feel small. You are allowed to be big. You are allowed to be connected. You are allowed to feel like you're included. And we have this other connection because she is a curator for one of the biggest collections in the art world. It is the Soho House Art Collection. And so she is prolific. She talks about that on this podcast as well. And I have been doing art walks at Soho House every month in New York since November 2017. I think I took like three or four months off in the pandemic but then we started doing them because they were one of the few events you could kind of do that were sort of outside. So it was really great. So anyway, that is my connection with her but then maybe a little bit more. So I invite you to listen to this episode, see how much fun, like I feel like you're going to get these like warm and fuzzy feelings. So and that's the intention. I think that is the intention because art is not there to make us feel other. It's there to make us feel good. And this is the place for you to feel good. Now speaking of feeling good, I felt incredible, incredible when I was reading your reviews. In September, I did this thing where I was like if you submit a review, you'll be unturbed to win a one to one session with me. And on my podcast, I did say I was like, oh, I'm going to announce it on October 5th. I did not announce it on October 5th. I'm going to announce it like right now. And I don't know if you can hear it in my voice, but I've been like on and off with a cold. I've just been hibernating as much as possible this month while also serving the artists that I work with in my programs. And so anyway, I just want to say thank you so much for these incredible, incredible reviews. I really, you know, I say this often, but it feels sometimes like I'm just talking to myself here. And when I record this podcast, but just hearing, seeing these reviews makes me feel so just connected to you all. So thank you so much. And I'm going to announce the winner, but I also want to say thank you, you know, I'm just going to read like some of these because they're so freaking sweet. There's Mark Stratford, art says it can be a turbulent carnival out there and anything can happen. In fact, everything does happen. Thanks for reminding us that we attract the attention we want and need in sustainable ways, proportionally aligned to the energy we put into the system. Brilliant. And then I have another one that I really, really appreciate. I mean, all of them I do. And this one is from Leah and she says, Marina's perspective on not only the art world, but life is a treasure. She stands firm in her unique point of view that combines practical knowledge and metaphysical wisdom. I will listen to some episodes on repeat. It is truly uplifting and affirming in all the ways an artist needs. Leah, thank you so much. And then we've got Julie Hatt says Marina offers so much insider knowledge and practical insight for artists. And she shares it in a way that feels both down to earth and heartfelt. And I always come away feeling seen, supported and inspired. Her thoughtful approach and willingness to share her experience make this podcast an invaluable resource for any artist navigating their creative career. Oh, so nice. And I got to tell you, there are so many good ones. I've even had people like put in reviews for my course here because they're like, well, where do I put a review for your course? I'm going to put in your podcast. And that is so nice. And of course, my course is the artist academy and I meant to open the doors around this time, but I am taking it easy. So we'll see when the next time I open the doors will be, but it will be soon. But anyway, I was going to announce a winner. And our winner today is the eighth person. I picked the number eight and I was like, it's going to be the eighth person who sent in their review to me. And I'm so, so grateful that I chose this artist because I know her and her work is just so incredible. So congratulations. Lauren Bergman, you won the one to one with me. And I just want to read a little bit. I'm going to read her review. I was thrown on life saver by listening to the music. this podcast today. It feels like I have been getting rejected for more things that I have I even applied to. The inner chorus of "Self-Doubt" has been deafening. Marina's ability to reframe rejection and step back to see the bigger truths is very helpful. In her clear and logical explanations, the stories we tell ourselves become just that stories. I'm learning to tell myself better stories. This is so credible because I know I see the timestamp on this when she sent this in. I think it was after that she let me know that because of the reframe, right? She actually someone reached out to her about painting and she she had sold it. She was going to say, "Okay, sorry, it's sold. You can contact the owner if you want the painting because it was for public collection." Because of what she's learned for me, that there are so many opportunities out there, right? That we just choose to see or not see. She thought, "Wait a minute. What if I say, you know what? This one is sold, but I can make a similar one for you specifically for your collection on commission." They went for it. Now she's on her way to Europe to deliver this painting, to this collection, and to do an artist talk. They're flying her out there and obviously commissioned her for painting. I'm just so freaking delighted to read that. It really truly feels rewarding to me to hear what you guys are accomplishing, everything that's happening to you, for you, and it's just like so cool. I've gotten so many messages over the last month too, so thank you, thank you, thank you. Before we dive into our episode with Kate, I wanted to tell you that every year I do this retreat. It's like an immersive experience in Miami during art Basel, and it's open to only three artists. So the experience is there to make you slip into the timeline where you are an artist who is successfully showing at these fairs. And the way that I do that is I show you how to look at the fairs, how to approach the fairs, and see them with an analytical, critical eye, not only with the practical tactical, like meaning which fair do I belong in, which pocket of the art world do I fall into? What are my prices look like? What is the actual roadmap to getting there? But also the energetic of it, right? Like the energetic of it, we, I really have, you work on the subconscious level throughout into this transformational world where you literally slip into the timeline where you are showing at these fairs. I had an artist who came on one of these, and she had been showing for quite some time. She had been selling her paintings for not a lot. Like, let's say I'm like 5k, right? For a long time. And she was just burned out for a minute. And she came on this experience. She saw all of this and she realized, oh wow, I, I can, I can sell for more. And later that year, her work sold at 22,000 through an auction, which, you know, I don't always recommend you take your work to auction. But in this case, it was, it worked out for her because she had an institution behind the auction itself. And she ended up being picked up by a gallery that shows that one of the major fairs in Miami and showing her work. She had the next year I went, I saw three of her paintings, prominently hung in a booth in Miami for sale for like four, four times plus the amount that she normally would sell for. And this is just so incredible to see, to like slip into that, right? And sometimes, you know, sometimes it can happen, but it can happen at your own pace, but why not? Why not cut the line? Why not do it in not only the practical, tactical sense, but being, you know, on the ground over there, slipping into the energetics of it all as well. Because that's when you really start to shift, right? When your subconscious mind says, hey, it's okay. So the way that this retreat works is it's going to be December 6th and 7th. We, I haven't even sent out the invitations, but we have two spots left now. And we have what we'll do is we'll meet for a nice morning beverage. We'll go to an art fair that I will choose based on who is in the program. I want to make sure there's a fair for everyone. So we go to an art fair, then we have lunch with a curator or a gallery owner or gallery director. And then we go, so you can really see, so you could really see how it is to network. It's not that scary. It's actually pretty amazing and chill. And then we go to another art fair. We take a little break and then we go for a nice fancy dinner. All of us, right? All four of us. So it's the three artists and I. And then the next day again, we meet for morning beverage. If you want to grab a snack, you grab a snack. We go to the main fair. We'll go to our basil Miami Beach. Then we'll go for another lunch with a curator or gallery director or gallery owner. And then, then we're going to go and have a workshop just the four of us on integrating everything that we have learned. Now, after that, we will have a private sound bath so that we can truly integrate everything on the subconscious level. And then we'll have a really cool toast all of us at a cute little spot. And what's special about this program is that when you get it, you get two one to one sessions with me in November before the experience and a one to one session with me after in either December or January. You'll do another one to one session with me so that you can integrate everything. Now, when you get this, you also get a bonus. If you haven't purchased this course already, you also get how to know which galleries are right for you. So that's really special because you go in with that knowledge kind of pre-knowledge. Like, you already know it of free cognitively, right? Free you have that kind of vibe set. So it is a really cool experience. If you're interested, the link is in the show notes. And if you have any questions, you can always email us about it or send me a DM, but time is ticking. You know, no pressure, no rush, but it is in early December, it's December 6th and 7th. And we do only have two spots left. And I've already booked one of our guests for our lunch and let me tell you, she is kind of a celebrity. I am so excited to have her join us. She is a really cool curator. She has a really cool podcast. And she's done a couple of TED talks. So anyway, you decide if you know who that is. But anyway, you know where to find me, how to get in touch with me. And I truly hope to see you in Miami. And thank you, thank you all again for the reviews. Congratulations to Lauren. And here is our episode with Kate. Hi, Kate. Thank you so much for joining me on the hotline. It's so great to see you. How are you doing? I'm really good. Thank you. I was so lovely to meet you in New York. And I'm so happy to be talking to you on a fellow art geek. Oh my gosh, totally. You were incredible. I saw Kate, Brian speak at Soho House about her book. And you were just magnetic. You're very sweet. I was very jet lagged, but I was very excited about my book. I was just genuinely about art. I'm always very excited about awesome. I wanted to ask you, you know, dive right into the nitty gritty of the book because, you know, essentially the book is How to Art and I wanted to ask you this, what propelled you to write this book? Now this is the third book, correct that you've put out and tell us a little bit about that. Well, I just, I really felt that this is a book I really should write. I almost felt sort of guilty in a sense that I had had a 20-year career in the art world. I feel really privileged. I really enjoy my job. I absolutely love everything that I do to do with art, but I would just so often meet people that just felt very anxious around art, even if they had a meaningful relationship with it, maybe they were an artist, maybe they went to galleries when they traveled or maybe they, you know, had a few art books, would, you know, maybe they watched some of the TV programmes that make about art or other great art programmes, but they still always had a sort of certain art anxiety. So they might say something to me like, oh, you know, I really love Tracy M. In's work. I mean, I don't know anything about art, but I love Tracy M. In's work and I feel really frustrated and sad on people's behalf because it's really not their fault. I think somehow there's this perception that you're supposed to meet the demands and the rigor and the elitism of the art world on its own terms. So I read loads of art history books before you even dare step foot into a gallery. And it's just, it's just put to people in a difficult position that they don't have to be in. And I just always wanted to kind of reassure people that like you're perfectly entitled to like what you like and not like what you don't like as well. You don't have to like all of art. And I wanted to really try and write a book that would demystify the art world that would allow people to come in without having to do loads of homework to sort of just free themselves. You know, if you could just kind of step into a gallery and not feel so tense or like there was a right or wrong answer that you could be free to take your kids to galleries because it's fun and it's you know, a great thing to do in the UK. It's mostly free. And it's always raining here. So it's a great dry place to go at the weekend. Yeah, and I just, I really felt, I mean, to be honest, I didn't really want to write the books. I knew it would be very difficult to write, you know, trying to do like a an entire kind of look at art, what it is, where to find it, how to buy and expensive art, how to make it look good in your home, how to make art again for the first time since you're a kid, how to be an artist, you know, what's the difference between good and bad art? Is there such a thing as bad art? I thought these are really sort of philosophically difficult things to do, especially when you've been in the art world a long time, you're kind of deeply entrenched in all the language around it. And I didn't want to write down a dumb, down art history book, but I did really want to help. So I kind of just thought, right, you owe this to people you've got to do it and made myself do it. And I'm really proud of it, and I'm really pleased that I did it, but it was hard, you know, I realized I had to kind of unlearn a lot of things and have quite sort of intense discussions about, you know, a lot of things I think we take for granted in the art world, what's the difference between art and craft and what's the difference between illustration and graphic design and art and there's all these hierarchies and I just thought, right, I really have to face all of this head out, I can't shy away from any of it. I really want to be able to help people and ultimately do it in a way that's warm, engaging, funny and hopefully just makes it fun. That's okay. It's okay for it to be fun. You know, there's so much fun in the book when I started listening to it. I almost like, I, and I must have met and before I read how to art, I didn't read any of your other books, so I didn't quite know much about you and I thought, oh gosh, this is going to be like really intense, like it's kind of cute on the cover, but like, is it going to be intimidating? And that is literally your mission to make it not intimidating, not just your writing, not how you present everything, not only how you present everything, but generally the art world. And so when it comes to that intimidation, right, of the art world, oh my gosh, what would you say to anyone listening, you know, mostly artists listen to this podcast and I hear it from them too. They walk into this austere white gallery, they walk into this space and it's quiet. You could hear a pin drop and suddenly they feel like everyone's watching them, but they don't know from where because you can't see anyone there. Now, I want to ask you this, what would you tell them? How would you make it easy for them to come in and enjoy the art that's there for them to see? Well, first of all, I think I'd say that you're absolutely entitled to be there. I think one of the problems that we experience, particularly when we go to the kind of gallery you're describing, which is probably like a commercial gallery. So someone like pace or hazard and worth where they are for sale, we're kind of thinking, listen, I'm obviously not going to buy this. I'm not in the market for a hundred thousand dollar painting. But if they're artists themselves, remember that it gives them such a joy in a thrill to show their work to people and they probably show their work to 200 people and maybe one person buys it. That's very normal if you're a very established artist or if you're an emerging artist or somewhere in the middle. There's so few people that are actually buying with buying your work, but there's lots not so people that can engage with it. So I think when I go into a commercial space like that, I'm always thinking these artists making this work, they want to have an audience and actually the gallery need to give them an audience. It's not just about sales. So I think that particular dynamic, it's really important to remember that visitors to galleries where they're buying or not, most often not, are a really important part of the ecosystem and a really a part that the artist themselves really are excited by. No one wants to make work and fit to me, never seen. So I think we have to remember that. And then the other thing I think is that galleries need to do more to change that. It's not just all down to us to kind of go to thicker skin. Increasingly, I think there are positive signs. So when white cube opened its big new space in Burmese in London, it was over 10 years ago now. It had sliding doors. It got rid of its doorbell. The staff actually smiled when you came in. The desk was much lower. They weren't you weren't kind of peering down at them. They had wall text. They had information labels printed big. They had toilets which were available to the public, you know, have baby changing facilities. I think all of these sent messages like, hey, come on in. We want you to be in here. We're happy for you to come and see this art. Has run worth now put hospitality into their spaces so they have cafes in them. I think all of that is really important because it sets a tone. And I think that, yeah, I don't think it's just down to the visitors. I think the visitors should go and I talk about loads of different places you can see up. You might not normally go to. But I do think that these spaces is incumbent upon them to make them more user friendly. And I mean friendly friendly like come on. Let's have let's be warm and nice about this. Yeah. And you know, on the flip side, if somebody is completely new to our dimension that there are, you know, it can be very warm and friendly for people to come in. You talk about in your book how to make your dog more cultural, for example, which, you know, I have a dog and I that was the first I've heard of it. And also how to actually enjoy like the Mona Lisa. So for someone who's like completely brand new to our what's, you know, the first thing that you would tell them about. I would tell them first of all that you don't have to like it all. I don't think we talk about that enough. You know, just like, you'll watch something on Netflix recommended to me. And I'll be like, is she crazy? That was all over. I hate it. Like and just like how I can go to a restaurant and order a risotto and be like, oh, just some taste of anything. Like I honestly think we should be able to trust our judgments and our instincts around art. You don't have to seek the label for the answer to the painting. More often than not, it won't give you any kind of answer. Give you a bit of context could be helpful. But you just need to spend time with that artwork. So if you can let the kind of vibration settle, maybe get over that anxiety, feel about knowing the right or wrong answer. And then just spend time with that picture, maybe point out five or six things that are interesting to you or that you just notice about it and decide whether or not it's doing anything for you. You know, great art when it when it touches us when we fall in love with something, it does so in a way that is without language, it's without words, you know, it's almost unexplainable. And that I think maybe that makes our second guess ourselves because you think, why do I like this? Is it just because it reminds me of my grandmother's wallpaper and a cap that I had once and all this sort of strange sensation that I'm getting? I think that's exciting. It's nice to lean into that. And like why sometimes art's just going to leave you cold or make you feel bored. So that's why going into quite a lot of detail in the chapters like how to talk about art that you like, how to talk about art that you don't like trying to come up with different strategies like maybe this is boring you or maybe you feel like the artist has phoned it in or maybe you feel like it's too pretty or maybe you feel like it's too ugly. Just really trying to help pick apart those kind of threads, I suppose. But yeah, I think if you're totally new to art reminding yourself that you don't have to like it all is important. And the reason I talk about the Mona Lisa is because a lot of people's first entry point into art is maybe when they're a tourist so they think right going to Paris, of course I'm going to go and see the Mona Lisa. But then we go and see it and I don't know about you but so many people tell me that they were kind of disappointed they were miswisperate like oh my gosh, you're so small. Such a big cue. And I get it like it is a really frustrating experience trying to go and see one of these cultural benchmarks because everyone else is there too and everyone else is talking about them and you've got there's they've lodged such a permanent place in your mind before you've even got within 10 feet of them, you know we've heard of them. Van Gogh, San Flavours, Mona Lisa's, and Leonardo's Mona Lisa and Michelangelo, Sistine Chapel and the three that I focus in on because I want them to have a fighting chance and want you to be able to have some kind of sense of the results, not just cultural tourist destinations. So I kind of set homework, I say right, if you're going to go and see the Mona Lisa and my advice and I don't recommend loads of our history books about the Mona Lisa and of course there are hundreds. I say watch Beyonce's music video Apes It, if you really want to look at the Mona Lisa with fresh eyes and if you want to look at Vincent Van Gogh, San Flavours, then watch a really short clip on YouTube of Doctor Who, which is a British kind of cult TV program where Van Gogh comes back from the dead to see people looking at his paintings and if likewise if you're wanting to go into the Sistine Chapel before you go rewatch Good Rule Hunting, you know my homework is very pop culture and that's on purpose because I want you to kind of shake off these kind of the weight of history of these things and try and look at them again with fresh eyes and they Again, I'm not telling you you have to love all of these three things, but I want you to, I want people to have a better chance. I mean, to the extent that I even tell you like the quietest day that I've experienced to go and see them, you know, like go and Wednesday at four. That's right. And also, you know, side note, when I, uh, my favorite, uh, DaVinci at the Louvre is the St. John de Baptist painting. Do you know which one I'm talking about where he's just like pointing up. And I was shocked, like absolutely floored when I went to see the Mona Lisa. And there's this enormous crowd around this painting. You can't see it at all. I mean, eventually if you wait hours and you shuffle through, or if you have like a really good, um, if you're experienced at rock shows, you could probably get to the front, um, because, you know, had to push your way through the crowd. And with this magical work of art and there are tons of them everywhere in the museums, but this particular one, the St. John de Baptist by DaVinci with a more intriguing smirk is absolutely like everybody walks right by it. So yeah, I always, and actually I talk about that in the chapter. I say that, you know, there's a, there's a, if that, if any of the other Leonardo's, by the right Leonardo, it has like 20 finished paintings, not even finished just 20 paintings. Inexistence of someone of soccer, Gantt, you and fame. If any of the other Leonardo's were any other museum, that's what people would be queuing to see, but we just walked straight past them to go into the Mona Lisa. So, um, yeah, and it's also why is she so famous? I try and uncover that as well, you know, she was stolen. I think that really put her on the map. You know, it's all about the positioning, the marketing, the PR. Mm hmm. Um, she's a brand, you know, she's as big as Coca-Cola, bless her. Yes. Um, and now I wanted to ask you this if you could just, uh, kind of unveil this for us. Just give us a bit of a preview when it comes to art that we don't really like. How do we talk about it? What can we actually say? Well, first of all, if it's a living artist, be kind, um, I talk about Cana Leto, so I didn't choose a living artist that I didn't like. I chose a historic artist, um, and I sort of gave that option. I suppose really because I thought you, we do need to articulate why it is that something is not doing it for us. And ultimately, you just need to move on from it. I mean, I think that's the thing like some people get like, sometimes in a way, people almost take it personally that an artist is famous and they don't like them. But I mean, I'm not taking it personally that Metallica seems have sold millions of records and yet it sounds horrendous to me. I don't take that personally. It's just, it's Metallica. I don't like it. I don't like heavy metal. I don't like the food fighters. Everyone else seems like the food fighters. Do you know what I mean? I don't, I don't, like, blame them or judge them and I don't blame myself or judge myself. Something about art, because it's so wrapped up in value judgment and elitism and it's so mysterious. No one's ever really explained all of these things. And you know, that's why it was kind of hard to be the person who tried to write the book in this way. In a way, it's got, it's so shrouded in sort of smoking mirrors that the implication is if you don't like it or you don't get it, you're the problem. And I just wanted to simply write a book to say, you're not the problem. That is so empowering. That is so empowering to hear too. And you know, because I love this mission of not making people feel small, not allowing people to feel small, which is something that the art world is really good at doing sometimes. Yeah, I agree. And I think they do that. Imagine getting, you know, you go and add up first. I still sometimes feel a bit small. And it's like, hang on a minute. I acquired 2,000 works a year for Severe House. And I've got two degrees. I make television programs, I've written three books. And I'm like, I sometimes want the ground to swallow me up when I ask for the price of something. I'm thinking, no one else has got a fighting chance. It's wild, right? And you're probably there, even at the very first preview of the art fair too. It is wild. So I wanted to ask you a couple more questions about feelings. So for any artist listening out there, what would you tell them about how feeling small is just like not the vibe? It's a total myth. Well, I mean, I think the reason I write a whole section of this book, which of course, was a bit unexpected, I said properly for the publishers, because the book is supposed to be a mainstream book, helping everybody have a relationship with art. And then here I am saying, yeah, but I want it to be a whole section which is just design for artists. But the reason I did that is A, because I think it's really interesting to see what was from the perspective of an artist. But B, because I love artists. And I do think that there just aren't enough resources. I think your podcast is excellent, by the way. And I'm really glad that it exists and other things like it for artists. Because so often artists are working on their own. They're pretty isolated. If they've been lucky enough to go to art school, that's only for a period of time, then it kind of ends. And there's no sort of like continuing professional development for artists. There's no kind of industry organisations. You know, it's just for such a big market. It really is lacking pretty straightforward practices that put people together, that safeguard people, that provide sort of organisational aspects, trust and so on. And even just really simple market advice about like how to price your artwork, how to put your prices up, how to try and get a gallery, how to get your work out there, how to sort of uncover all of these different things. I know you do a lot and sort of staying motivated or sort of, you know, getting your dreams to become a reality. I wanted to have a whole chapter on that, precisely to state to artists and I see you in your not alone. And that, you know, here's a whole section on how to price your artwork, here's a section on how to write your artist statement, here's how to approach your website, your social media, here's how to do your inventory, which sounds so boring, but it's absolutely critical for all of those other things to work. You need to have a really good record keeping. So I think in answer to your question, I feel there's a lot that artists in particular feel like they're on the outside looking in of their own industry and that is so perverse to me. And even if you're fortunate enough to go to art school, which most artists aren't, there's not a huge amount of education about all of these things. So that's the other reason why it was so important for me to write this book is I love artists, they give my life meaning and I spend so much time with them. And I got to benefit from the wisdom of so many of them that in a way I wanted to put it all down in one place and hopefully have this point of reference, which is, yeah, really practical stuff, but also just to give artists the kind of moral encouragement to say, listen, the way that your feeling is justified, there's nothing wrong with you. In fact, a lot of artists feel like this and here's some sort of strategies that we can sort of take together. You know, I always say the best thing that an artist can do is try and make a peer group of other artists, you know, have other artists around you for lots of different reasons. Yeah, it can be so isolating to just always be in your studio by yourself kind of waiting for somebody to knock on your window and curate you into a show. And speaking of which, you are an incredible curator. You are the head, you know, I would consider you the head of the art collection at Soho House, which is I think it's one of the biggest private collections. Yeah, it's one of the biggest collections of its kind, we say, because we're not a museum, museums may have more work than us, but we're also not a kind of corporate collection in the sense that everything's just in a bank vault, you know, we don't de-accession and I think we don't sell anything, everything's on display permanently. And there are 11,000 artworks in the collection nearly now and in 17 countries. So it's a really big collection. And what I'm really proud of is the fact that it spans sort of the entire modalities of making art. So it's got lots of different mediums, but mostly I mean that it's got a very museum level established artists all the way through to artists who are merging and just beginning their careers, a lot of self-taught artists and that we hang them all together. And I really think that's wonderful that you can go into a house. The collections are always site-specific, so we build them for that particular site, but also to reflect that place. So if we're opening a club in Nashville, then all of the art in that house will be artists who are born based or trained in Nashville. So you get to understand the city through the art that's on the walls and then you get this lovely melting pot of people at different stages in their career. So it's a total pleasure to curate it and be the custodian of it. I'm very lucky. It is so cool and by the way, Nashville and Nashville House is one of my favourite houses. Oh, you've been, yeah, it's good. It's good and cool as well. It's so nice. And I haven't been to all of them, but I've been to a few and it is just so, it feels, even though it's a really big house, it feels so intimate. And I think it's because of the art, right? Because it makes, it brings it all together, not just visually, not just energetically, but like you said, it tells the story of Nashville, right? Of the local place. And so I know that there is a bunch of artists listening who are like, okay, Marina, you've got to ask her this. How do you, how can an artist get their work in a major collection? Perhaps, for example, like the Soho House collection? Well, we do a lot of research to build our collection. So we're asking artists, we're asking galleries, we're doing, we're sending art fairs, we're reading local press. I think, you know, I think one mistake a lot of artists make which I think is really simple to rectify is that even on your Instagram, your website, your artist statement, wherever there is written content about you, you know, I find it quite frustrating when an artist says born 1978, lives and works in the UK. Because I'm like, well, I'm curating Manchester. And right now, and if I knew that you were born in Manchester and that you're in, you you live in Newcastle, you're going to go on my list to be seriously considered. And it's quite amazing how many people aren't specific about where they're from or where they're based. And the reason I say that I know my collection is quite specific, the set house and the way that I curate is quite specific to the site, but there's a lot of people that approach art in that kind of regional way. So it's kind of that's a really simple strategy. So yeah, if you want to kind of be in a particular collection, it's great for people to know where you are in the world. And then the other thing as well is that we are always getting recommendations. So we're getting like, that's basically what we spend our entire life doing. And so many artists come to us through very informal channels, through very anecdotal channels that you can just be having dinner with someone in Mexico City and they're like, "Oh, I was at this show last weekend. There was a couple of emerging artists that you might like it." You know, I think that so many artists want them to be gravitas and to be permanence and to be impressive and to have all of these big things. And they don't necessarily pat themselves on the back for all of their small achievements, like maybe even just showing in their local coffee shop or a library or an online show or, you know, clustering together with a group of friends and curating something yourself for a weekend. All of these small things are really big wins because it gets the work out there. And it's always every single time someone sees your work, that might not be the person who buys it, that might not be the person that gives you a solo show, that might not be the person that gets you into the Whitney Biennale. But it's certainly someone who could be an advocate for your work. And I think it's really important for artists to remind themselves that all of these things happen in very small ways that eventually become interconnected. But it's very rare that everything happens in big, chunky movements. You know, it's just like Little By Little, like a Little Chisel Mark and then one day, you know, the break happens. Yeah, and you know, it's one of those things where it's so important to understand that it's not. Sometimes it'll happen overnight, but don't put the pressure on yourself for. Yeah, looking at that. But I think the idea that it happens overnight isn't illusion anyway, you know? Like it's like a stone kind of carving away the stone. It's like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And you think every single one of those marks leads to the whole. And it just. it might feel like it's overnight for your peers. And obviously all artists think other artists are doing better than them. But you know, you just got to turn up. Yeah, it's. Yeah. It turn up every single day. Inspired or not inspired, just keep turning up. You know, you have to be sat there ready in the studio for inspiration to find you. It's not going to happen when you're somewhere else. Ah, so good. And speaking of artists, you do have David Triggley's illustration in this book. And tell me a little bit about how you got to know him and why his work is specifically the right work for this book. Well, I love David. I love David's work. I'm a big fan. He's a friend. I'm very lucky to count him among my friends. I commissioned him to do our first ever artist swimming pool for Sewer House, which was great. It's a little beach house from Brighton. And I think the reason I chose David is really actually he was one of the inspirations behind the book because I wanted to do something that would be mainstream, that would help people that would be a kind of warm embrace to help people come into the art world. And I was just so struck by the fact that David's been so successful in having a museum level career. He's in the moment collection. He's in the tape. He was nominated for the Turner Prize. Like, there's so many accolades. But at the same time, makes art work, which is full of verve and wit and it's fun and down to earth and really accessible. Then we do very democratic, very happy to have his artwork on the details, for example. And I just felt that that was really important. And also because David has this whole other aspect to his work, like a subcurrent, I suppose, which is about the art world or is about the practice of making art or the modalities of art. So it just kind of suited what I was trying to do. So actually there's no other art in the book, even though I mentioned hundreds of artists except for David's. I love that. That's so good. Well, thank you so much. I have just a few rapid fire questions for you because we want to get to know you. We want to get to know you on a deeper level. So there are no right answers. This is just your opinion, except there's one that's going to be like the right answer. It's empirically, but we'll get to it. So first and foremost, what is the most overrated, must see artwork, artwork, and what would you tell us to go see instead? I mean, we talked about from just like a little bit, maybe. Yeah, I don't know, because I sort of, I wouldn't want to stop anyone going to see the main leasing, but it because it is probably still worth seeing. What's an overrated must see artwork? Oh, gosh. That's really hard because I just want to go and see it all. That's the problem. I'm so greedy. It's like when someone says, don't eat that cake. It's not that good. It's like, well, I'm just going to try it. I mean, I would not bother to go to the Wallace Collection in London to go and see what they can let us. As I've said in the book, I do not like can let out. I wouldn't go and see Titian's tomb designed by Canaver. I wouldn't go and see any Canaver sculptures whatsoever. I find them completely soulless. So probably, yeah, probably those two examples, I just have seemed to have managed to have quite a lot of some relationship with them for some time. Canaver and Canaver. Canaver. I see. What would you go see in Staten? So rather than going to see Canaver, I mean, the dream is just to go to Venice. Canaver is the painter of Venice. I think the problem is he always falls really short. But I think the person who did paint Venice very successfully for me because they paint the feeling that Venice gives you as a post-eventist literary is probably Monet's paintings of Venice, especially the ones where he's painting them from San Giorgio, yeah, the island. What's San Giorgio, my Giorgio? Yeah. His work in Venice just really evokes the Venice that I miss and that I love and that got into my bones. So good. Instead of kind of it, I would definitely see Benini. Wow. Just such a rapturous, sexy sculptor. Totally sensual. Canaver just leaves me cold. I just don't think there's any hooks. Find them so lifeless and like they're just trying to be so perfect that he takes everything away. It's like a face that's just been like totally facelifted and Botox the hell out of like there's nothing left to hang on to. And that's what Canaver is for me. And Benini is like a nice, craggy, sexy, sensual thing. It's amazing what he can do at a marble. I remember seeing the ecstasy of St. Teresa for the first time in person. I was like, and it's again one of those places where there was no one. Nobody. Yeah, nobody knows it's there. But you do now that you've listened to this podcast. All right. Next question. What's one gallery you would send a shy first timer to either in London or New York? Did you meet a commercial gallery? Well, probably a convertible. Yeah, I was I was thinking commercial gallery. Yes. I think a shy first timer should go to jealous gallery in East London. It's one by my dear friend Dario who is such an incredible advocate of art being for everybody. He he works with great artists. He works with David Triggles. You can see David Triggles there. But if you go and see his shows there, it's a really cool part of London. East London, but you can go upstairs and see where they make all the prints and you'll get a tour. And everybody is just absolutely like heart of gold completely passionate and enthusiastic. A lot of the people who make the prints are artists and they're there to it's super super friendly and gorgeous. If you're outside of London, I would go down to Halzöhnworth in Somerset because it's just such a great experience. It's a great day out. It's got a great restaurant to cost a great garden for kids and they've set that place up really to have like community at its heart and you feel like the second you walk in. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love Halzöhnworth everywhere. They're just so if they're great gallery. They do really do. Yeah. And they do make you feel welcome, which is wild. All right. What is a book you wish you'd had like 18 other than, you know, your own? Well, if it had been published then seven days in the art world by Sarah Thornton because I just so wanted to work in the art world, I didn't really know what it was the art world. And I think that she did such a fantastic job of coming in, but this I kind of anthropologist I one chapter on the B&R. They one chapter on a option house, option house, a crib session. She just sort of took the art world and just just really opened it up just beautifully. And I still enjoy I probably read it once every couple of years. I still enjoy it. I've read it so many times. I wish she would do the same thing again now because I guess it must be over 10 years old. Wow. Yeah. It definitely is. And you know when now that you've said that, you know, what I'm going to do is I'm going to put your book next to her book on my bookshelf. Oh, that's a great honor. Now last final question. What is your astrological sign? Oh, Pisces. Oh my gosh, amazing. I got to say I did meet some of your friends from your hometown at the event. And I was like, what do you know her sign? They're like, we're not sure. Though we had to ask, so that is great. Well, yeah. Thank you so much Kate. It has been an absolute honor to have you on this podcast and so great to meet you as well. Thank you very much. I've really loved it. And I, I, again, honestly, just so pleased to know that this exists and that you're doing doing the Lord's work for artists. That's what I like to see. Likewise. Thank you. Have a great rest of your day. Thank you, Marina. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five star review and share your biggest takeaway, share with a friend or share on social media and tag us and help us keep this podcast going. See you next time.