How to Access Flow State | Why Training Nervous System Capacity Beats Chasing the Feeling | Safe Doesn't Scale w/ David Walsh

[Music] I'm so excited today. I've got Chris Walker, who I have been following for a long time, and I think Chris firstly congrats on the successful launch of Encoded and the new book launch, and I appreciate you coming on to have a conversation with me. Awesome man. I'm pumped to be here with you. Good to hang out. I'm excited for this. I mean, we could start in so many different places, but I actually want to start selfishly with something that I did recently that I think will resonate with you. Started this year, I said, you know what? No alcohol, six months. With a three-month window where I was going to ski trip my family, I said, you know, at that week, I'll probably not drink with my family, but then I'll go back to no alcohol. And then I bought a cold plunge. And every morning, five minutes, three degrees, it is brutal, but now it's been come part of my, I don't know, like, morning routine, and I can't live what I had. And so I feel like that's right up your street. I don't know if you're a cold plunge person, but you might respect that. Not a cold plunge or at all, actually. Zero cold plunge is for me. And yeah, on the alcohol one, just about about 18 months ago, it just something clicked in me. And I was like, I just don't want this anymore. To me, it wasn't like, oh, I'll like try a month, and it'll be hard, and I'll like, you know, cheap one day when I'm at a business dinner. And it was just like, no, this is preventing me from reaching my potential. And so when at some point you realize, some people realize that alcohol basically just drains your capacity. So if you want to, you're operating, you're operating for a period, it's not even just the next day, maybe. It could be the next three days. If your battery is, when you're at your best at 100%, you're just living your life at 50%. This connects you from yourself. It disrupts your nervous system. It disrupts your sleep. The science around it is incredibly clear. The thing is that it's so socially validated and socially accepted that people think that it's hard. But if you just looked at it objectively without the social inertia around it, it's like, oh, like this is obvious. Like I will have sparkling water with wine, please. So no judgment around anyone who drinks alcohol. I did for a majority of my life. But I think that challenging, right? There was a time where like 50% of people smoke cigarettes. Right? I think now it's like 8%. Right? It's just like things change. Right? And being being able to challenge why do we do certain things, whether it's in business and life and relationships, to challenge them and say, but I know other people do this and it's socially accepted. But what is right for me? Right? Let me choose for myself what this means to me. I had a Gen Z on our team that was 23 and I started asking questions about alcohol and he was like, none of my friends drink. Because he's a high performer and all his friends are what I assume are high performers. He's like, none of my friends drink. I was like, oh my god, there's a new generation coming with a completely different mindset, right? Of what's important. But I want to get into encoded. So for everyone listening, I met Chris about nine months ago when you were giving me some really good strategic advice at a pivotal time in my business. So, firstly, I appreciate that. Thank you. Happy to. And I want to learn about, for those that don't know, tell us about encoded and then actually just tell us about the journey to launch this. Like, why did you feel compelled to launch this? Cool. Yeah. Let's cover a little bit about what it is first. Okay? So, when I started my first business, Refine Labs, right? I started talking about Demand Gen. And that term in 2017-18 was not well defined. So, nobody, everyone was talking about it. There were some job titles about it, but no one really knew what it meant. And I'm doing the same thing now, right? So, we call it frequency training. A lot of people have a preconceived assumption around what frequency is. It's mystical. It's spiritual, things like that. So, what we've done is defined it in a way that is entirely scientifically grounded with a framework that people can use and implement in a way that is entirely not mystical or anything. I view it equivalent at this point to exercise, to going to college, to having an IQ, right? So, I think that's the level that we're trying to play out here. So, how do we define frequency? We define frequency as your subconscious foundation that drives the capacity of your nervous system before you start thinking or doing anything. And the way that it works is that we have ingrained neural pathways in our mind, that automatically are filtering and interpreting everything that's going on and driving the state of our nervous system. And then after that, then we start thinking. We start doing stuff. And so, up until this point, that whole part of the process has been incredibly underappreciated by people. It's all been about productivity hacks about doing something, about trying to have a positive mindset once these negative thoughts or imposter syndrome arrives and trying to redirect it. And to realize that there's actually something that's happening before that's causing that thought, that's causing those emotions, that's causing that behavior pattern or whatever it is. And so, I find this to just be an incredible discovery and understanding. And when we think about using this for personal or professional development, we call it frequency training. Meaning the objective is to install new dominant neural pathways that permanently change how we interpret and view the world, how we feel, how we think, how we show up. And it is entirely possible grounded in neuroscience, cognitive science, performance research, a ton of different places. And what we've done is we've just challenged some assumptions that other people have held for a long time, said, we don't believe in these assumptions, found connected scientific evidence to demonstrate how this can work. So, I'm pumped to share it. I'm pumped to introduce it to people and to try to help people shift their perspective on what it means. So, when I started Refine Labs, when I said Demand Gen, everyone was like, oh, that just means we just get 10,000 mqls, right? And it's like, no, that's actually not what I'm saying, right? So, there's the same language gap going on in frequency training that I'm excited to help people understand, because it's like one of the most powerful things ever to truly understand how it works. First, see congratulations. I mean, I think when you align your entrepreneurial vision and what gives you purpose and gets you excited, and if it's focusing on helping others achieve their potential, I personally believe that there's nothing more rewarding. Like the only way that I do that today, potentially is helping some people in their career, right? And their career decisions in opening up doors for them and unlocking their mindset around the restrictiveness that they put on their capabilities because of what they've been told and how they've grown up. And I'm like, you need to change that mindset. And now what you're saying is you're trying to do that at scale. And so, I think question for people listening into this, like, what is that interaction like? Like, are they dealing with a team of people? Is it virtual calls? Is it AI? Is it a training coach? Like, what is the interactions there? Because you're talking about pretty big shift, which obviously requires consistency. But what's the interaction and what should people expect? I think it would be equivalent to getting a gym membership and then going to the gym. And having a personalized plan for what you're doing that's customized to your goals, your life, where you are right now and where you want to go. So, it's entirely self-guided. It's a physical and a digital component. And a big element of encoded principles is developing the capacity of self-trust. And so, while some people might benefit from having a personal trainer help them for a couple of months, what we call a frequency trainer or a facilitator, that the goal is to work to a level where you trust yourself, you have autonomy, you make decisions on your own. And so, in that way, using a coach would defy some of the core principles that we believe in, at least on a longer term period of time. So, it is a entirely self-guided process of considerate similar to having an exercise routine in the morning just targeted at a different part of your capacity and potential in your body. I've been reading some of the reviews that you've been sharing and others have been sharing about this work and it feels like it's really taking off right now. Last question, and I'm sure I'll have more as we go through this. But like, when do people achieve that level of, I suppose, like, is it three, six, nine months in? And I think like, maybe where are you at today with users? How far have they gone through this? Because I know you launched nearly a year ago now. And so, how much data do you have supporting this? And how many people are, how far longer people through your program that you've created? So the question. Question is kind of like when do people feel the benefits of fitness, right? So I'm going to make that comparison, right? So the longer that you train and the more intentional that you train, the more benefits, the compounding benefits that you feel, right? And so most people feel the difference within one to seven days. That is the initial amount of time that it takes for somebody to say, whoa, this is different. Then it takes about 62 days on average to develop a totally new dominant neural pathway, meaning that you have created a structural lasting change in your brain. So that is the point where it's like you got to the gym and you could lift 15 pounds and now all of a sudden you can lift 20 pounds and 20, what used to be impossible for you or sealing to you is now become your baseline operating state, right? And then you can continue to build on it from there. So it's a compounding process that continues. So I'm the longest trainer of this, I've been using the system on my own as I've been developing it for almost four or five years total daily, every day for four or five years. And some of our longest members that have been using the system are probably around somewhere around nine to 12 months. And people at that time frame, and it doesn't take that, usually three to six months at the time where people say my life has completely changed. And so a majority of people using the system right now are what we would consider high performers. So executives, athletes, creators, entrepreneurs, all the way up to nine figure, nine figure businesses of six, seven, eight, nine figure entrepreneurs, people that are running big companies. So that's the, what I would consider the early adopter phase, right? Similar to an exercise, how professional athletes were probably the first people that trained in fitness, right? Now everybody does it. So in the future that I see this will be a foundational practice similar to exercise, but at the moment in the early adopter category, it's definitely people that are trying to achieve that next level of potential. That's awesome. Yeah. And I also saw you launched a book recently. I'm not sure if I already mentioned that, but like that's a big endeavor. Like, nobody goes out and writes a book while building a business. It's just so challenging. Actually, my last co-founder did something similar and he ended up quite distracted with his book and finding time to do that. How do you, I mean, these things obviously emerge together, right? And you have this knowledge and you put it together, but like talk us through the process of writing that book and congrats on getting it launched. Thanks. Yeah. For people that haven't heard, the book is called The Frequency Era. It launched about a couple of weeks ago. The response has been amazing. It's been such a joy to create. So I had the thesis of the book I had in early, maybe late 24, early 25. And I tried to write it twice in 2025 and couldn't do it. And the reason is because I didn't have the foundational understanding of the science and the macroeconomics and things like that to have a cohesive argument that if somebody poked at it, that the building would stand on its own. And so I would get two or three chapters in and just be like, just this isn't, this is, it's not a solid foundation to build on yet. So we continue to build and code it. And now almost 500 or more people have been using the system. We've been collecting a lot of anonymized aggregated data responses from people. Tons of new science has been, both existing science has been published for decades and new science related to neuroscience and performance research has been coming out. Artificial intelligence has rapidly accelerated from even just the past six months. It's insane. The capabilities and how much is proliferating. And then in about February of 2026, it landed. It was like, oh, all the pieces connect together. And then I was able to write the entire book within about three months. So I would say that it was about 18 months of thinking and trying, figuring out what am I trying to say? How do I understand this at a level where I can explain it to someone in a clear, compelling and cohesive way that's backed by science and evidence. And then about three months to write the manuscript, one month to do line edits and a way we are. Wow. Well, put me down for a book. I need to go on and buy it because you sent it to me. But it was a kindle, I think, and I ended up not having one. Anyway, I'll figure it out after this. Now it's in hardcover, softcover, digital, anyway, you want it. Sweet. Sweet. For those that don't know, and I'm sure many people watching this know who you are and I know your background. But you've created five companies, I believe, right? Is this the fifth? This is the fifth one, the third major one. So I had a couple of ones in my 20s that I built a Instagram brand and an Amazon brand that were actually like, really, it was great training wheels for me to learn business principles that actually propelled me to have so much success with refined labs and beyond. And so I do consider those business endeavors, even though they ended up only being six figure, no big enterprise value type businesses, but a business endeavor nonetheless. So yeah, this would be my fifth one. Okay, this might feel like a redundant question, but I'm asking anyway, there is so much learning from taking an idea to a business, right? And that whole process, so like going into this new business, instead of, you know, going in as a first time founder, going in as a fan of multiple companies, I think like what changes? Like, what do you think you are become aware of? And I'll give you context, right? I started my first business, 2017, another business in 2021 and then my third business. And I felt on the third business, I finally knew where to spend my time, right? Like, I knew what was important and was not important and what wouldn't move the needle, whereas before I used to try to do everything. So for you, starting this business, right? Let's just talk a little bit about like, what was different for you when you started this? And how did you set up the intentional, not just the strategy, but actually, then like, how many people you wanted to hire, for example? Like talk is true, the process of, okay, you've done it four times. This is the fifth, what was important to you? So on this go, it is the first business that I've created that was truly me, that I, regardless of how many customers we have or whether investors want to build or whether other people think it's cool or to me, none of that matters. It's like, this is so meaningful and so powerful and I'm doing it. So I think the purpose and the meaning for me is so much greater than my other businesses and that's a true luxury and honestly a testament of my work and frequency training for the past four or five years to know that and to trust myself to do it. From a leadership perspective, I am totally in a place where it's in power and delegate others. So I view myself way more as frameworks, vision and market communication and empowering other people to be able to grow, to take a big part in the business, to own it, to have freedom to make their own decisions and watch their own creativity and capacity grow through it. Several of my other businesses depended on me at ten or twenty million dollars and so that was a huge learning from those businesses. And then I would say lastly is two things. One is the thinking of the scale. So sure, at one point, I had the possibility that Refinelabs could be a hundred million dollar revenue business, right? So I've had that before, but when you're thinking about a business like this at scale, you're thinking about a long-term growth driver that are three or five years down the road, right? And in this type of business, it's like clinical studies, research partnerships, like randomized controlled trials against whatever, this versus this and those types of things. And so thinking about it way more in a truly defensible way where the data modes and the clinical research and things like that become a very strategic part of it. And also I've had this in other businesses as well, but I just can't understand it enough is that the way that the organization operates is now the advantage, how you show up as a leader and how you get the most creativity, trust, clarity, good decision making from everyone around you is a massive leverage point, which has been underappreciated up until now. And so I think that one is a huge advantage for us when you consider, we have basically no one's in our space right now because nobody wants this type of product. Nobody knows they could use this type of product at its category creation place. So there's no one else in the adjacent categories, but there's no one else in the space. But when you compare it to a $30 million company that's raised $100 million, right? The entire company's in a rush, they're obsessed with metrics over impact, nobody in the company feels safe, they're in meetings all the time. It's a total drain on nobody's being creative, nobody's trying anything new because they don't feel safe, they'd rather try to keep their job and just do what I'm saying. is expected and over time that will play out into a serious disadvantage for companies that operate that way. And so I see that as a big part of what we're doing, staying with the shifts in how artificial intelligence works that you don't need a massive hierarchy of people to organize IP and knowledge anymore. Right. It's way more about the cohesiveness of the team, how you're able to use systems and basically the frequency of your organization. So that's a big one and then you got somethings what's through that. No, I was going to go back to like this brings me back Chris to nine months ago when we were first chatting and I was at that moment of deciding the structure of the company going forward and I said something along the lines of I want this to get a hundred million dollar revenue business and the problem that we have is that investors won't invest and you said flip that. You actually got me to change my mind and you said well what if that's actually an advantage because now you don't have young kids or executives that are well funded getting a hundred million dollars business or 100 million in funding to join and compete against you because venture investors don't want to compete. And I was like, like now I think of a completely different where I was like actually you're so right. Like why am I trying to behold myself to like what others think and what other investors think and just staying in this lane that I'm really excited about that has purpose in us and that can build a solid business. And then I just want to tie this back to like I wanted to create a consumer product but I've been a B2B software for a long time. The bridge for me was marketplace right. We get creators and influencers paid and there's actually nothing more exciting than sending them money and I feel like you know at some point I'll want to take a big swing at a consumer product especially in the age of AI where you know it used to be that I think consumer I was a bit scared of because you have to get to certain scale and volume but now you can just do so much. I want to come back to like this transitional period right and you're changing of industry and jumping into this. I think like firstly best founders reinvent themselves like on a consistent basis. That's what I believe right in my last company I felt disconnected from the mission didn't felt like I had a lot of purpose there. I'd done a lot of things right made some mistakes along the way but the purpose of the product I didn't feel aligned to and so I had to disconnect myself very aggressively and then rebuild from scratch and I felt this moment of like loss of purpose and not knowing exactly what was next and there was some moments I was really high and some moments I was low and I always look back at those times being like wow I wish I'd taken them I didn't take them for granted right and I think I learned a lot through that journey but I think for you right you spent six years roughly right becoming I suppose the B2B marketing guy and then decided that it was time for a change. I think the question I have which is a more vulnerable open one it's like how did you feel during that time right when deciding what to do next and what can other people learn from that experience. Yeah amazing a key point it's not just founders that reinvent themselves musicians reinvent themselves athletes reinvent themselves so it's it's it's it's anyone right but it definitely the founder point is well taken the the transition for me was slow and then immediate I guess if there's the best way to say it so for maybe a couple of a year maybe a little bit more than that I just I start to feel disconnected from the work that we're doing and at its at its simplest form I eventually came to the conclusion that the the the problem that we're solving and trying to shift B2B marketing is unsolvable because it's not a marketing problem right so and at that point when that clicks in it's like okay like now this does it does feel meaningless to me right it's amazing that the company's going on I wish them all the success in the world they're going to do a lot of great stuff but at my level of vision and what I wanted to accomplish I just I you get far enough down a road and you say this road's not leading anywhere the way that I want to go anymore and almost at the at the the same time that I finally admitted that to myself like the next day I had the vision for encoded and it was literally like the the ability to finally detach from this one and just admitted to myself and then this this one was I was the next it was literally the next day I push can I push you on one thing yeah which is like what what do you think is I think people find this so interesting because that's a big move and then a very quick turnaround so my question is like what is the cost to you for not taking that leap meaning I suppose who does Chris Walker become if he stayed within B2B marketing for another decade so I would say that who knows right like who who really know I probably could have built a great life running that business right there's the I don't think that it's like a you know die or succeed I don't I don't view it that way but the way that I look at it is that the the the ability to simply access that level of vision for a new business is a it's a capacity it's a skill to be able to do that that I haven't always had and following that is the ability to have the self trust to follow it when it comes and so if I if I had had that vision two years ago I would have said this business is doing all right like I have my whole my whole brand and my whole life wrapped up in B2B marketing I can't leave this right so it's like when when you're ready it it's there right like I think that's the best way to say it and so I didn't aim for if you asked me what I was going to be doing five years ago I would have never said this right but I've developed a level of self trust and adaptability and things like that to to just fully trust myself believe in my my vision and go for it and so and the big part of it a huge part of it is not carrying what other people think and it's a stereotypical thing to say and it's not you don't you don't choose that I'm just not going to care what people think it's it's it's a literal rewiring of the way that your your mind works in order to to do that to facilitate self trust creativity other things like that and now that I've been able to understand it now I'm just like like everybody should should know this right this should be found of foundational level of wellness personal growth success it should just be foundational knowledge that everybody has to at least understand it and so that's that's where we're at now I think a lot of people like majority I'm I don't know I'm going to throw it a percentage but like 90% of people get validation externally right validation from what others think validation from you know what your perspective of your own personal success looks like and I think what you're saying is like actually rewiring that and becoming internal and finding the internal motivator is way more powerful and then when I transitioned out of my last company I vividly remember what you're talking about but I was I would call it like numb and unable to think and clouded for three months and I've never been like that right I would always come up with ideas but at that time I think my brain needed to reset and I just let us I was like okay I'm just gonna I'm gonna figure it out and I'm gonna let us and I think this confidence in uncertainty can only be I suppose gained in actually like taking that risk and you know living in that uncertainty and I feel like that three month period felt like forever and then I remembered vividly I flew back to Ireland flew back to LA and when I came back to LA I had jet lag middle of the night mining my two-year-old he was asleep but he was waking up in the middle of the night and all it just came to me like it was like I I had clouded vision for three months and then it just came to me all in one go and I wrote it all down the next day and it took me an hour to basically jot down the initial like here's what I was thinking but it was already written in my head like I wrote it because I was awake for two hours I was just writing it in my head and it was that moment of clarity that I realized okay now I'm ready to go and so I lay I think what's important is like when you go through these kind of moments and time and everyone does in your life and in your career allowing yourself time to figure it out and being okay with that uncertainty is important and then when the time aligns like when it happens it happens really fast so it definitely resonates with me I think you were much quicker than me it took me a little bit longer but yeah I thought I'd share that yeah so let's let's talk about the physiology of how this happens okay so what what we call nervous system capacity is your nervous systems limit of uncertainty pressure demand responsibility before you lose key functions like clarity self-trial trust, emotional regulation, and things like that. Now, so that capacity is variable. It's trainable. And most people have never been taught to train it. So they see it as a fixed capacity. And when it's a fixed capacity, then the techniques that you use in order to get the most out of whatever capacity you have is cold plunging, sleeping well, stopping, drinking alcohol, which are all amazing things. And so it's not to discredit them. It's just that they have us a ceiling in their benefits. Now, what happens is that when you have a low capacity and you start taking on demand, you lose key functions like clarity, or it shows up inconsistently. You can have a vision for your business one day, but then for a year, you don't have another one. You can regulate your emotions when things are easy, but then when something happens and there's more pressure, then you might feel anxiety, you might feel imposter syndrome when you're doing something that has more responsibility or demand. And so what we're doing is we're rewriting subconscious programs that then expand the capacity of our nervous system. And when we expand the capacity of our nervous system, we access these key functions more reliably, even under pressure. And so when and then when conditions are calm or stable, boom, you are like, you have massive capabilities, all that there's no inconsistency, you access them all the time. And so that is a, that's been a major unlock for me because it would be like never lifting weights and then expecting to go and deadlift 400 pounds. Right. So in an entrepreneur that never focuses on the capacity of their nervous system and then tries to build a hundred million dollar business and have a family with two children and contribute to their community and their team and their clients. It's like you're trying to deadlift 400 pounds and you've never been in a gym before. And so when we look at it that way, it's like this is a to continue to do to take on more and maintain all these key functions that it's not the ability to regulate your nervous system that is a misconception. It's building more capacity within your nervous system, which is an entirely different methodology. As you're talking, I was getting this visual image right of this triangle that I've always thought about right where your life and your time spent can be in three different directions. So at the top, it's a work. Well, actually, that's my top family because that's more of a reality. So top is family. You got left hand side, you got work on the right hand side, you got social right. So social connection. I always thought those three things I can only spend my time focused on two of them with how busy I am right now. So I don't really socialize. I don't spend much time socializing. I spend most of my time working and with family and I do both quite well. I would say I try to separate them and I'm constantly working on that. But I kind of want a more balanced approach where I want a little bit more social interactions and invest a bit more time into it. I don't know if there's a fourth to this, but I feel like what you're saying is this like, yeah, you need to focus on your own, yeah, in your words frequency and you need to invest in it. I am fascinated with output and quality outputs. Like how can I get the best out of myself and understand my gaps and understand where I'm strong. And so, yeah, everything you're sharing with me resonates for sure. I think what I would love to learn from you, like as you think about this vision that you have, where do you want to be in 12 months with this? Cool. I got a poke on something real quick. And then let's do that. Just in related to output. Okay. So you had the vision in two hours at two in the morning. Yeah. If you didn't have that, how long would it have taken you to create that plan? If you weren't in that state. Two to four weeks. Yeah, I was going to say three to three to six months, but it's it's so you did what would have taken a month in two hours. Yep. Okay. So which one was which one would be more productive? The obvious answer. Okay. So this is a it's a big mindset. It's a big mindset switch, particularly for people where their main the main function that they deliver for their company is clarity, vision, creativity. That and that's basically every CEO and leader, even even senior level executives, that the the most productive thing that we can do is is achieve that state consistently. And then it becomes okay. So what do I what do I do to achieve that state because I can get I can if I if I'm in that state for seven days, I can get a year's worth of work done. It's true. And so and that's a different switch that I've been adopting for the past about two years and it totally changes how you allocate your time investment. So instead of being in meetings for 40 hours, 40 hours a week, I'm actually I'm I'm working to achieve the two hours where I get that amazing amount of work done, which is the opposite of sitting in zoom meetings. So like zoom meetings are actually taking you away from the potential of doing that. We were we were talking about just before we hit record, right, which is the idea of time blocking and for me, at least I'm sure many people listening to this end up sitting on virtual calls, right regularly. And I think virtual calls even one in one day can take you away from this flow stage. I have a different problem now where I actually if I'd block like four hours of my day, I get anxious if I'm not being creative or using that time effectively. Because sometimes I end up just being like, OK, this is my rest time. Like I actually need to rest, whereas I should be like, OK, now I've got four or six hours that I blocked in this day that I need to get into that flow stage. So actually the question for you, because you might be the expert at this, right, how do you quickly transition into a flow stage. Sometimes I want it to be instant, like I have it, I have it on a calendar Wednesday, 9 am, I'm in flow state till 1 p.m. Right. Sometimes I just can't turn it on fast enough. And so my go to is like, let me go for a run or let me get a, you know, Starbucks coffee with five shots. And I just hit shoulders. My memory like get me up for what do you think? How do you get into flow state quickly? What are the things that you would recommend the the answers that you don't. And so again, it would be it's like equivalent to to trying to run a marathon without having the proper amount of training or capacity to do it. And so instead of trying like using techniques to try to get into flow state. What we do is that we train the capacity so that the flow state arrives. Right. So we get into up, we train the capacity so that it happens more consistently. And we construct our schedule and our things that we need to do that we can when it comes we can adapt so that it's conducive to accessing it. So and the thing that there's many things that that block a potential I don't call it flow state, but let's just call it that for the sake of understanding. And one of them is called the productivity contract or what was a subconscious program. Meaning that if I'm not doing something that I consider productive, I will feel guilty or anxious. And when you feel guilty or anxious, it changes the state of your nervous system and actually blocks your ability to think clearly and access a flow state. Another one would be fear of judgment, right. So and this is running in the background. You're not consciously worrying about what someone's going to think. But you start to go down a path and you don't even realize that you've only gotten 10% down of this creative path and you've turned yourself back without even realizing it that you're not going far enough because of a fear of judgment. And so and there are a variety of other ones. And so what we do is that we we train to remove those programs install more empowering programs in our mind so that they're not getting in the way. So the better way to look at flow state is I need to clear out the things that are blocking it because my natural state should be a flow state. For every every human has the capacity for it to be their natural operating state. And it's simply that things are things are getting in the way of you operating the way you naturally could. When I started this podcast selfishly, I was like, OK, I want to go create great content. I want to meet interesting people. I want to talk to them about different things. But I really just wanted like to essentially grow my business. And then immediately after interviewing the first let's call it 10 people I realized, wow, I'm getting like firsthand view into people's mindset and asking them questions allows me to learn. And so it's not about my business is about me learning. And so what I've realized is in this conversation, I feel like I'm getting a self guided encoded directly from Chris Walker, which is awesome. Talk to me a little bit of vision. I have two questions. Then we're going to wrap up right. One is a vision for this in the next one to, you know, whatever. Let's just call it 12 months. And then I actually think there's a huge opportunity which I'm sure you're already tapping into. You can community of this, right? You're creating this category. So let's start with community, because that might be easier. How do you think about community for the encoded community? I'm sure there's a lot of people raving about it online. How are you connecting them? Is that a focus? Is it a priority? Is it not a priority? What do you think about it? Cool. So one other thing about balance. So you mentioned the triangle, right? So it's family, work, social. And just the idea that I can only have to is a subconscious program on its own. It's a balanced contract that in order to achieve something, I must give something-- I must trade something else, which is not a fact. It's not actually-- it's not real. And the way that we look at it is we actually look at it in 10 different categories. So you have relationships, which would include your family, health, mental health, connection to self, financial, purpose, and there's several other ones. And we work to optimize and achieve a 10 out of 10 on all 10 categories of our life. We view how we live them, because there actually is no restriction to doing that. What actually holds us back from achieving that is actually just our own ceiling that we create for ourselves. And so I like to drop that in. Because I've been a-- I don't-- it's not a victim. But I've been a victim of those beliefs before. And whatever you believe is how it will be. So if you believe I need to trade my family for work, then that's what will happen. If you don't believe that, then you will act in a way that you can make all of them amazing. And they all can be amazing. So that's an empowering belief I want to share with everyone. Now, let's go vision first, because I think it might stem into community. So in three to five years, that having a training routine for your frequency will be as obvious and popular as a fitness routine. There will be many gyms that you go to to train your frequency with others. There will be tons of different types. They'll be hit. There'll be a bunch of different flavors of frequency training that it will-- so tens of millions of people will use it as the primary method of developing both for their personal and professional and economic contribution. It is the most-- it's the most foundational element of your life that you can train through and through. And that's why people feel the effects in all these different areas of their life, because they're truly working in your cultivating, healthy, amazing soil for your life. And when you have healthy, amazing soil, all the different fruits and all the different areas have what they need in order to thrive. And so that's where it's going to be. I do already see people looking for in-person experiences for community elements and things like that. So those are our elements that we are going to take apart in. And I also see a major ecosystem being built from this. So I don't see encoded being the only player. I see many different regenerative partnerships with-- we already have a great partnership with a nervous system retreat center in Costa Rica. People go down, stressed out, burnt out founders, go down there. They do a 7 to 30 day nervous system reset. They learn the encoded system, and they bring it back with them afterwards. So there will be experiences around it, community elements. And then we have a really compelling research roadmap, which I think is where this is going to reach a major amount of scale. So just as an example, OK? $50 billion a year are spent on prescribing what we'll call psychiatric numbing medications, anti-anxiety, anti-depressants, things like that. And once you're on one, there's a 29-year-old girl that's been on anti-depressants, trying-- wants to get off of them, tries to get off of them, and immediately has suicidal thoughts. They're stuck on them. Now, what if, through frequency training, that people already experience 80% or more drops in their anxiety after a month? So what if you could help people get off these types of medications? Obviously, there's a lot of clinical research that needs to be done to make a claim like that. But the early insights are really, really powerful. And to be able to help that many people would be amazing. Substance abuse problems are at its core a frequency problem, a low frequency belief, a set of beliefs about yourselves in the world. And so if you elevate your frequency, then you literally leave environments. And many people report, stop drinking alcohol, stop smoking marijuana, stop doing other medications, and other things that they've been doing after using and coded for a couple of months. So these are early evidence that need a lot more study and validation for it. But they are incredibly compelling for society. What's fascinating about that? What's fascinating is, too, is like you're talking about early adopters who are maybe because of their circumstances looking for something as a change, right? And I think that makes a ton of sense. There's plenty of different kind of cohorts that you could think about. Another one to think about is like, what if this was part of college or student curriculum? Like what if actually this is part of the evolution of education and learning of how to get the maximum out of your human? Then it's not people that are in a challenging spot because they might be the early adopters. It's actually people just looking at this as like part of their grown up journey. I think that's an opportunity. That would be fascinating, right? And I think the huge amount of-- Coded for kids is definitely on the road map and will be by far the most impactful for society. We'll be that demographic. Obviously there are regulations and other considerations that we want to make before we enter that market. But that one means a lot to me because a child at six years old doesn't have all these subconscious programs. And so it's more challenging as an adult to reverse the programs than to install empowering ones to begin with. I mean, I think-- I know we're getting deep into this and we're meant to be right up on that. I'm loving this. If you just have two human beings with the same capabilities and same potential, and then you have two different types of parents or family surrounding circumstances. And those family surrounding circumstances tell people on the one side positive encouragement, you can do anything. You can be the best of the best. And the other one, it's like, you're not going to achieve whatever those two human beings grow up with completely different mindset. Now what is true is you can change, right? But it's really hard. And I think there's this road and fork in the road. And I don't know what age it is. It's different for everyone. I'm assuming, but at an early age where you just believe or you don't believe. And if I think of my own personal experience, I was fortunate to have a dad where I would tell him the most eight-londish ideas that I had in the world. And he just nodded his head and said, 100%. You could do that. I'm done. I was like-- I was 19. He was like, what you want to do? Everyone of my friends is like, I want to be an accountant. I want to join the bank. I was like, I want to own a tech company by 25. He was like, yeah. I'm sure you can. Go do it. And I did it. And so I think just going back to this, I'm really excited for your journey. I think what your building is awesome. I think what you've found is this unique opportunity to take all of your skill sets around building businesses, growing communities, creating categories. And you're forcing it into what seems to be one of the most purposeful endeavors that you can think about, which is changing people's, I think, of the restriction they put on themselves. So I'm a huge fan of the work that you're doing. What do I suppose for people listening to this? Number one, where can they buy the book? Number two, how can they learn about-- encoded and number three, where should they go to learn? More about you and your journey. Fantastic. So number one, the book is available in hardcover, softcover, and digital formats on Amazon. You can just go to Amazon Search, the frequency era. It's the only one called the frequency era. I'd highly encourage it. And let me know what you think. As you get into it, I get a ton of different messages people like I'm in chapter six. And they're like, whoa, it's mind blowing. I'm going to change in the way that I'm raising my 14-year-old son and whatever. So that's what you want the book. That's where to find it. For encoded, you can learn a lot more about what we're doing at encoded.ai. We have new business model and major product announcements coming tomorrow. So feel free to scope that out. So I'm excited to continue to-- it feels like we just are basically like launching an entirely new version of the product every two or three months, which has been a really cool way to go about it, different business model, and basically whole new everything. So stay tuned for that. And then lastly, if you want to learn more about me, about going into these concepts in a bunch of detail, I actually think the book is the most easy to consume to understand the things that I'm talking about at both the physiological and the economic level. So the book-- but I also have a podcast called The We Are Encoded Podcast, where it's conversations like these, where you can get a lot of the highlights about the concepts that we're talking about and what's possible. That's awesome. You have to have me on that podcast if you're open to it. I really enjoyed this. I know the people listening to this will get a lot from this. Thanks for coming on. We'll have to do it again. again, I could have gone for another two hours, but we're meant to keep these to 30 minutes. We've been nearly 50 minutes. And that just shows you the quality of the conversation. So again, Chris, you're advocate for what you're doing. And thanks for coming on and spend some time with me. Thanks, man. Good to see you.