Speaker 1Someone once said everybody's got a plan till they get punched in the mouth. I did. Mike Tyson. Oh, well, Mike Tyson and Boost are here to tell you that your mobile plan is punching you in the mouth. With prices that can knock you out. That's a low blow. Totally. But you can do something about it. You have to punch back. No, Mike. You gotta switch to Boost. With a plan that's $25 a month, forever. Oh, that's a great plan. Maybe you can do both. Boost Mobile, what's your plan?
Speaker 2Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin Unfiltered podcast? Here's what you missed. There should not be a single law enforcement agency that does not have body cameras. It's real. Black farmers have been under attack. This is just the latest example of them just slapping DEI on anything. It's raw. And I'm sitting here going, they are playing y'all for fools. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. And download Roland Martin Unfiltered on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3WAVE. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A WAVE original. My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. Only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. This is our third episode. And our series, looking back on 10 years since Colin Kaepernick sat by the water cooler during the national anthem. Like, sometimes we forget that that's exactly how it went. But that was the thing. So we have talked already to Charles McDonald about Kaepernick the player. We talked with Jason Goff about the year 2016. And then the next stage of this process, 27 to 2019, we will talk to our good buddy, the author of this here book that remains on my desk for every time the heat comes on, Kings and Pawns. Check it out. Still available in stores. Is it Howard Bryant? Is the soft kind out yet?
Speaker 4Next year. Next year.
Speaker 3OK. So then you'll be able to, like, put it places and bend that bitch up. You know what I'm saying? You ain't just got to. It ain't just going to be a concussive situation.
Speaker 4I'll be watching people. I'm like, man, y'all treat books badly.
Speaker 3Yeah, I am so kindled out just to save the space. Really? Yeah. Like, I need to start doing the thing where instead of buying on the Kindle, I rent on the Kindle and then buy. The ones that I really want to keep. Yeah. I went backwards.
Speaker 4I started buying. I started buying books, hardcover books. I started to buy everything again. Removable media. I'm tired of everybody having my password. I'm tired of the fact that I can't get rid of my Yahoo ID because all my movies and whatnot on Apple are tied to it. And my books are tied to it. I'm like. Yeah, I buy my movies now. I bought a DVD player. I bought a Blu-ray player. I went back. Wow. I've gone back to the future.
Speaker 3No, I'm here for physical media. I'm just not here for looking around all these books. Like, that's the thing. Like, when it's time for me to travel, I'll knock out two, three, four books. For real. I'm also all about Captain Carry-On. So, anyway, we will get back to all of those things. But first, I broke this up time-wise to start this at 2017 because I think it's interesting that, like, with golf, I've talked about stuff like, you know, do you remember where you were when you heard this happen? Right? And when you first got the statement from Kaepernick, which I think was important because what differentiates Kaepernick from just about everybody was the clear articulation of what it was that he was protesting with no punches pulled, where you had guys like Marshawn Lynch, for example, who, when 2017 comes around, is a guy who does not take a knee. He just sits by the water cooler, but he never answered a question about it. And now Marshawn Lynch, of all people, has all the money coming in from all of the places. Right? But to me, and you tell me if I'm wrong here. We got through the 2016 season. 2017 comes. And the first thing that we start with is, hey, nobody's giving this guy a job. Right? Like, after a season where he demonstrated, if nothing else, that he was a capable NFL quarterback. Not one person, not one team was like, hey, why don't we bring that guy in?
Speaker 4In a sport that is quarterback deprived. Yes. I mean, that to me was the interesting thing, because what I remember most about that time period, if we're talking 2017. Yes. The first thing was, was the minute the season was over, it was done. Right? I think it was January. They immediately released him and said that they released him early to give him a chance to go find a market. There was no market. Then things began to coalesce around secondary narratives, which was, well, he was never a starter. Right? And then suddenly, the pile on that he was not a good player, and that this should not be a surprise that he doesn't have a job because he's not a good player. That to me was one of the big things, because you could see the industry was coalescing around something. And when that happens, I'm not all conspiracy theory on it, but there's absolutely a conspiracy going on here. It was like the league was not going. And then when you start having owners talk about how they couldn't anger their fan bases, you knew that this conversation about Kaepernick was taking place at a much higher level than football operations. This was taking place at a league level, at an ownership level. And that was happening at the exact same time that you have an inauguration. Donald Trump's now the president. And on top of that, you still have him not speaking. So there's obviously a strategy taking place, both on his side and on the league side, and then obviously with what's happening nationally, that is creating this sort of perfect storm for what's about to happen, which is the clear articulation by the time you get to training camp and the draft and everything else, that he's not going to have a job.
Speaker 3Right. Yeah. Like, I think it is an important distinction between 2016 and 2017 that and, you know, in other words, 10 years removed from that election, there will be young people who will never believe this. But like, we didn't think Trump was going to win. Like, it was the first legitimate upset in a presidential election since the year 1948. Right. Where it was just like, wait a minute, what we thought we thought at this point with the technology and the polling and everything else, we got a pretty good idea. How these things are going to go in going into it. Like, even the black dude, we knew he was going to win both times going in that Trump was a massive upset. So we had everything that happened with Colin in 2016. But the backdrop was not. And now Trump is emerging. Right. That didn't happen. Once you got to 2017, the backdrop on everything was Trump. And you had a non insignificant number of people who. Looked at the situation was like, OK, well, look, Trump's the president now. Now everything is going to be different, which I admit that I didn't really think. Right. Like, I had always felt like this game is set up to a degree where no one person can. It's designed to prevent like seismic change. Like the point is to induce some level of gradual change. And what did change, though, very quickly, I don't even know if it really changed. But the backdrop of the country felt totally different. And then you're right. It was suddenly. We're going to let Colin get out here so he can hurry up and he can find a job. And then nobody wanted to give him this job. And then it felt in a way because I'm not conspiratorial too much either. But do you remember when the game decided to destroy a public enemy?
Speaker 4Mm hmm. Right after I went with Professor Griff.
Speaker 3Yeah, but it was a gradual process. But it is the one like actual factual like conspiracy. I feel like actually took place. Now, Professor Griff got out here wild. He did. I believe the quote was that the Jews are responsible for 70 percent of the weakness of the world. I don't know how you calculate this number.
Speaker 4I love the 70 percent number.
Speaker 3Yeah. He basically said Jews are like water. Like, I don't know. I don't know how he determined that 70 percent was it. But Chuck had to figure out how to handle that. Did not go so well. Fire Professor Griff, everything else. But what I remember is as it went, when you got to like 93, 94 and gangster rap had come out and P.E. had decided to take a stance that was critical. If you go back and read the reviews of the music at our message album, which is actually not bad, you go back and read the reviews of that. It was savage and it was unyielding and it was across the board that it just seemed like whether it was the village voice or whether it was the source, they were all just shitting on it. Like, nope, we're getting this out of here. This isn't we're not doing this thing anymore. And the head of the snake is going to wind up being taken out. And you just like I tell you. You can go back and read it. You're like, wow, that all feels like really extreme. And with Colin, it was one thing that maybe you had some people try to make the argument that, you know, he wasn't good enough to play. But it went so far where you have people making the argument that, well, you know, the problem is nobody really runs the read option anymore. People run the read option to this day. Right. Like people were saying things that were just actually factually incorrect when it seemed very obvious. Like you say, in a. league where there aren't enough good quarterbacks to fill out the teams let alone three quarterbacks on every team right a quarterback that had been to a Super Bowl all of these things nope nowhere to be found on an NFL roster nowhere and in fact we didn't talk enough about the fact that Kyle Shanahan you know a guy that could do the things Kyle could do would probably be pretty helpful in the offense that he had nope not even thinking about it they brought in Brian Hoyer they brought
Speaker 4in Brian Hoyer and let's not forget they gave Jake Huttler Miami gave Jake Huttler what 10 million dollars yeah and he was he played five games the year before and so I mean it was anybody but him anybody but Colin and that was very clear and I think that with the other piece of that too that was really interesting and you know when you think about the 10 years of it it in the public enemy the public enemy comp is a good one because at some point they'll remind you who you work for and it doesn't make a difference and a lot of times you'll see it in you know obviously you'll see it in the black industries a lot more it'll be a lot more pronounced because they're gonna need the the black talent to coalesce around this to protect itself because now what you're really talking about is you've got a fracture here that you can't just walk away from right are you gonna stick to what is taking place or are you going to protect your money because when you have these fractures the industry the institution is going to rely on you to protect it otherwise you'll be the one out of a job and we saw that with especially with the narrative that Colin had cost himself um remember Michael Vick of all people Michael Vick was taking the high moral ground um you know maybe he should get a haircut remember all that maybe he just cut his hair and he should just fall in line and then there was Ray Lewis of all people who had so much to say about Colin Kaepernick and then the league let him say it you know and so when that was happening it was very obvious to me at least and obviously to a lot of other people it wasn't rocket science that if you were going to stay in this game you were going part of you staying in the game part of your loyalty was to criticize Kaepernick was to really sort of circle around him and make him and isolate him and I don't even know sometimes if people know that they're doing this if it's just the momentum that takes place and certainly from a media standpoint it takes place from a sourcing standpoint where are you getting your information right is your information original or is your information simply repeating the people who want Colin Kaepernick to be out of a job and I always wonder about this bone I always wondered about your thoughts about this I don't think we've ever talked about this is the thought that I've always had is how much do you think that those guys knew that this was going to be permanent you know the Michael Vicks and the Ray Lewis's and everybody else who had something to say and and let's not forget you know Dak Prescott and all the other players everybody you know the whole power of the NFL and of professional sports in a lot of ways came down on one guy that's not an accident and everyone's got to take a little piece of that too yeah or a big piece of it yeah I can say that's
Speaker 3where I say for me the P.E. comp comes in it's like damn it's raining from everywhere like it's a 2016 season like okay we're still letting this we're still letting this go a little bit right then it was like nah nah nah we've had enough and to me in it all coming down in that way I think it leads to a point that I think is very important which is if it was just about business then you didn't need that because if it was about business and you're making the argument that you are responding to what the fans are going to do then you don't need to sell the fans on how they already feel right like they get to speak on it and then it goes from there the truth is people are going to watch this goddamn football no matter what and by the way if you need an example of that all the people that said that they would quit watching football because of Kaepernick who went back to watching football right immediately yeah it be calling me right like people cannot people cannot stop themselves from going back into watching it so when they made that argument that was just like no well I just don't think the fans are gonna show up right it's the same argument behind the Washington Commanders we can't change the name from Redskins to that because the person or maybe you can name one or two but not enough that actually matter the reason they stopped watching them is because they were fucking sorry it wasn't because of the name of the team but they all those arguments came down no none and from
Speaker 4where though that's the piece of it that always gets me is the way that this whole industry sort of knows how to get in line so much for the independent thought and now we know everybody in the network is going to line up because we know where the sex are coming from right but we also know where the sentiment is going to come from outside of the game because anybody who wants to get inside the game is going to have the right attitude right and I think one of the things about this when when we were talking about coming on this uh this program this show to talk about this specifically one thing that had always that been hitting me for a while now was not just about Kaepernick not about what Colin did and what Colin didn't do and we've spent a lot of time talking about that but how well organized his opposition grew over the next several years from 2017 on it wasn't just you know what Colin did what Colin didn't do it was you know how now the IOC is not going to allow kneeling like the whole sports industry had a response to this right that's really to me when I think about Colin Kaepernick I don't really think about Kaep necessarily I think about how quickly his opposition mobilized to crush protest for the next several years and by the way that's still ongoing yeah like
Speaker 3they had a they had a plan to crush him when it is clear that he did not have a plan on this in the first place right now I do not say that as a judgment of him I don't think he thought this was really going to be that big of a deal um and you know and then it mushroomed into everything that it was but like even the idea or the act of kneeling it became this very powerful statement to the point where people forget that that isn't even how it began in the first place to the point where the kneeling came to then you know we both know this once you put something into the world it no longer belongs to you it becomes whatever it becomes and that shit became whatever people needed it to be right whatever it was it became just the act of defiance and it's crazy to think that not standing up for a song could be like the most defiant thing that one could consider that you were doing but it became that impactful because people saw the reaction and how strong it was and also a certain measure of courage that it took for him to stand and the reason it took that courage for him to stand is that suddenly everybody saw that's right and it
Speaker 4was also the articulate it was the articulation as you said to start this it wasn't just he wasn't out there saying hey you know give peace a chance he was like no you are attacking black people you're not attacking protesters you're not you know you're not pro greenpeace you know we're not we're not talking about climate we're talking specifically about black people and that is what inflames a lot of this or if not all of it because one of the arguments that i've always tried to make on this is that if cap if cap was like no no i'm just here for world peace man just the world is a messed up place no it was the specific articulation specific no i am here because your police are killing us that's the fight right there that's the that that's the gasoline that's the wick that's the kindling that's the whole thing i mean and and there's no way around that because that's what inflames the anger that's why people get so upset that's why this turned into what it turned into and especially because it was police as well like the articulation of what colin did the one thing i will say about whether he had a plan whether he had a strategy whether he didn't whatever you want to say the one thing he did say was that his the articulation of why he was doing it could not have been clearer right and
Speaker 3that is there's nothing more power in those moments powerful in those moments in those times as clarity and again it was very clear that the decision had been made we're just shutting this down yeah right like we're not we're not we've decided that this of all the things that surround this league this is the thing that we're just not going for right well that's why the
Speaker 4ray lewis piece was so fascinating and that was why you know the michael vick piece was so fascinating because what it told me was that we can handle all the stuff that you all do to each other but this guy's messing with our money yeah and this guy's affecting us and this guy is affecting the way that not only the way that that we see labor because let's not forget this is a labor issue there was nothing every battle that was taking place on the political front was taking place in triplicate between the players association in the league uh in terms of power in terms of you know this is where this whole player empowerment athlete activism where all this language came from and what i found most offensive about it was it was ray lewis's hall of fame speech when he was up there and they were all laughing and clapping and ray was doing his sermon and this is all happening at a time when colin kaepernick is out of a job and i sat there and i'm watching that speech and i'm looking at it and i'm thinking they are completely comfortable with you because you reinforce what they think of us you know and they'll accept you know you'll pay your you know your penalty for the dog fighting and then you know whatever went down in atlanta with ray lewis and all of those things but when you show a level of intellect and you show a level of history and knowledge and concern for uh and and and an understanding of where we are as people as a people they destroyed you and you know that to me was the first thing that was really the most um and the number of the players that went along with it and then of course then you know i don't know if i'm going to be able to do it again but i'm going to be able to do it again and i'm going to know if we're going too quickly ahead of time but then you know then you immediately get into labor because now you've got the kaepernick faction on one side and you've got the you know the players coalition on the other this you know nfl owner-led movement um once again all rooted around money and very little of it around principle and then it comes down to the leadership and whole thing about okay how do is it possible to have a movement can we do this and and how close to the to the breast do you want to stay players and so to me like all of this did a certain level of exposure it exposed it exposed the players as you know still just being employees they're still just little boys with big muscles who sell products and it also exposed the question of of movements in general can you be part of something like the nfl and maintain um any sort of independence probably not and then of course the third thing is when everyone was talking about empowerment how much power do you have if you lose everything by opening your mouth
Speaker 3right well and it also i think got to the power of narrative in the sense that a major difference between colin kaepernick and michael vick is that there is a path there was a path to redemption for vick there was a path to redemption for ray lewis there was no path to redemption for kaepernick because he didn't do anything wrong
Speaker 4that's exactly right
Speaker 3right like there's nothing like there's no way for him or no realistic he's saying
Speaker 4sorry for what do i need to be redeemed for yeah
Speaker 3there's no way he was going to turn this around in a way i'm sorry i'm
Speaker 4sorry yeah you know white
Speaker 3folks gonna be like yeah you know i think he's learned from what happened you know like like that's like there's there there was there was nothing to turn it around and people who feel like he was that he did something wrong you're never going to get that out of him right and so unless he was going to become an entirely different person or like shorten the muhammad ali arc and progression right where if muhammad ali endorsed uh ronald reagan in 1984 but imagine if muhammad ali had endorsed richard nixon in 1972 that was basically what it would have taken for kaepernick to have brought this thing all the way back around it was like no there was nothing that had been done wrong there was nothing he could do to change those people's minds about him and i think a very important point and we're going to get to this a little bit and you talked about this also is the fact that he didn't ask for permission to do what he wanted to do and he didn't ask for permission to do what he wanted to do he did right to make the statement that he made it was entirely him just one day deciding you know you know what i'm not giving up my seat i am going to stay right
Speaker 4here yeah that's right that's right and i think that and that is the the the thing where what was he supposed to do in terms of forgiveness forgiveness for what right right i mean that is the and every time you get to this piece when it comes to him that's the question you have to answer well i just think he's handled it the wrong way do you right do you think he's handled it the wrong way um you know all these people who would wear those t-shirts i'd be walking around the airport and you'd see all these you know white dudes with their t-shirts you know stand for the flag kneel for the cross okay all right um and these are the same guys who
Speaker 3stormed the capital yep
Speaker 4you know are they there's another way to do it and i think to me you know and obviously this is just my my own thoughts but that combination is what killed any idea of athlete activism or player protest or any of it because those dudes did nothing the athlete response to january 6th was non-existent and that was the slap in the face to everything that they had said about the players who were quiet for 60 seconds and all these dudes who were like blue lives matter and policemen got killed in january 6th and they tried to say it wasn't even a riot and the players didn't say a goddamn thing nothing yeah you know and that to me is you know there was there was one sentence that really hit me when that was all happening which was they're telling us this is theirs all of this belongs to them it's the difference between renters and owners how are these very same people who were going bananas five years ago about a cvs being on fire in baltimore saying nothing about this and the difference is that you can't have an insurrection on your own property they believe this is theirs the cvs didn't belong to the community in ferguson or baltimore whichever cvs we're talking about but the capital is why people like this well this is ours anyway how can we we we can't we can't have a riot on our own property and the ball players didn't say anything and that includes the basketball players that includes the wmb that includes all of them and they hadn't been heard from since
Speaker 3well well coming up next i want to talk about that element and how the trump of it all came up in 2017 to help lead us to where we are now look if your supplement shelf needs a reset now's the time gnc's semi-annual live well sale is happening august 13th through august 26 with bogo 50 off almost everything whether you're restocking your protein and creatine grabbing your everyday essentials or finally trying something new this is the moment to build a routine that works for you from protein and creatine to hydration and energy essentials you can find the pieces to keep your routine moving it only happens twice a year so don't miss the chance to stock up save and get ready for what's next don't wait the sale won't last long shop at gnc.com slash sale all right we are back with howard bryant um so the the most 27 things 2017 thing to happen i feel like maybe in all the 2017 things to happen is when trump came out i think you're gonna go when trump came out and called the football players sons of bitches right what is that a rally he was just up there and he's like oh yeah fire the sons of bitches
Speaker 4that was in alabama wasn't he in tuscaloosa somewhere in there yes it wasn't as possible
Speaker 3he's talking about cam he said he needs to just you know if the guys are going to protest during the national anthem he said to fire the sons of bitches and that was the thing that got the football players riled up that hair rex ryan who in 2016 was on stage at a trump rally sitting on espn being like hey wait a minute this isn't what i signed up for i thought it was going to be this end of third now he's talking bad about football players god damn that was the line for you but that was like the line for america it felt like that made this the giant sports story and it also led to the first time at least to me that you saw a widespread support at least for the spirit of what kaepernick was doing because if somebody once told me you have to understand that the nfl players association is maybe the largest group of black conservatives in america that is not a revolutionary bunch of dudes it is not a great line yeah it's not a culture that spawns a lot of individualism it is very top down it is very much influenced by white evangelism and evangelism like there are a lot of these
Speaker 4things and also desperation yes right
Speaker 3because they don't
Speaker 4control their money correct and
Speaker 3they know that and their money isn't even guaranteed but trump called them sons of bitches and now next thing you know they kneeling all over the place. You got cats throwing up fists. You got dudes doing all the things. Why were they doing them? Great question that doesn't necessarily have the clearest answer.
Speaker 4But I actually think it does. I mean, I think it has a very clear answer. I mean, because it's one thing when you're attacking the players. It's another thing when you're attacking the workforce, labor. Oh, I got Jerry Jones is taking a knee with the players on the sidelines. Jerry Jones, who came out and said that he would release any player who protested on his team. They realized that this went from a political problem to a workforce problem.
Speaker 3Yeah. Well, the reason I say what they were doing is not necessarily clear is as we discussed before, everybody had their own explanation. They had their own reasons. Yeah, for whatever it is they were doing. That Jerry Jones thing is interesting, though, because in a way that almost foreshadows a lot of things in 2020, where all of a sudden they looked up and they're like, shit, man, these dudes are mad. We got it. We just got to get through this week or two or something like that. These dudes are mad. But when Jerry Jones went out there with his team and locked arms with him and took a knee before the national anthem, that is one of the most amazing. I don't even know what the word is to use type situations because Jerry, to be fair to him, I always felt like Jerry was in a bit of a bind. Jerry knows that he got more black fans than anybody else. Jerry knows he got more white fans than anybody else, too. Yeah. Right. Jerry knows this national anthem shit is bad for business.
Speaker 4Bad for business.
Speaker 3Jerry also knows these dudes can kind of shut this whole thing down if they all decide to. And I like that my players like me. What do I do? And he threaded that needle so precisely in that.
Speaker 4And also perfectly. Yes. Because if there's one thing like when I think about black people, especially professional athletes, it's because you have to add the money to it. Like they can check in and check out whenever they want, because a lot of them are really, really rich. Right. I don't know how, you know, how you spend your money is up to you. But how much money you have is a lot of times in, you know, not in dispute. And so the I always refer to us in a lot of ways as sort of crumbs for a starving people. All we need is the gesture. And then that just calms us down. Just show us that you love us. Just let us know that. You care about us and Jerry. Jerry is Eddie DiBartolo times 500 in terms of how he lets his players and players. I mean, like in the in the in the Cowboys doc on Netflix, which I thought was very, very good. Then the number of players. Jerry knows how to tap into his players. They love Jerry. That's why the Players Association. So they can't strike because them players, they love. They love the owners more than they love each other. Because of the history of it all, and also because they know who signs the checks and they know, you know, once again. And if how many owners do you have? How many bosses do you have that if something goes down and you end up in the clink, you can call him first, right? You could call Jerry. And those guys swear by him. And he's the face. He's the face of the league, like it or not. I don't care if they haven't been to the Super Bowl in 31 years. Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys is the NFL. And in terms of how they handle players, in terms of how they operate, in terms of the aspiration, all of it. And the fact that what you know, what went down when Trump did that, when he gave that speech about, you know, fire the sons of bitches and the whole thing. The one thing that all. National sports need to do. Is break the union. Either physically break them or spiritually break them. And the NFL Players Association has been spiritually broken since 87. Right. And they've been trying to bring get something back since 87, when 40 percent of the damn league crossed the picket line in the first three weeks and killed the strike and superstars were the ones to cross. And how and why did they cross? They crossed as we did in this program. They crossed because they love their owners. Forty Niners weren't crossing. They loved Eddie D. Right. And so this was the first time where Jerry was like, wait a minute. We've spent we've spent 30 years keeping these guys in the exact perfect place. Why are you going to fire them up? You actually gave them a reason to join together, to be bonded. That's the biggest threat in the sport. There's no bigger threat. In the sport. No, no sport is more exploitative, is more restrictive, is more owner friendly than football. And you're going to give these guys a reason to essentially really be a union, to be unified. We got to put this down right here, right now.
Speaker 3And while all this is happening, by the way, where is Colin Kaepernick not playing football? Not playing. And by now, not really talking.
Speaker 4And not talking. I've always felt that was the the the biggest tactical mistake. And Colin did what Colin did because Colin felt like doing whatever he felt like doing. I know it's his life. It's his decision. You know, it's his strategy or lack thereof. And I never and I've told him this, that I never felt letting other people define you as the right call. Even if you're not a great public speaker or whatever, I mean, Colin can bring it when he wants to bring it. And, you know, but I felt like that was a huge tactical error because they got to speak for him for an extended period of time. And I'm not just talking about the owners. I'm talking about his ex-teammates and his competitors and all the, you know, everybody's got something to say about Colin. And even his allies. And that's what I'm saying. Even his allies. Everybody is speaking for him. And I don't ever think it's a great policy. It's a great policy to have the entire world speaking for you. And that was the thing about that weekend as well, was that in the backdrop of all of this, two things are happening. One, Colin's not playing. That's the first thing. And that's what this is really all about. I mean, no disrespect to Eric Reid or to the McCourty's or, you know, Antonio Cromartie, everybody who was in it or the Bennett's, all of them. But this was really about Kaepernick from an owner. From an ownership standpoint. The second thing that's going on during that time is that the league is effectively crushing the protest by offering them money. You've got Anquan Bolden out there and you've got Malcolm Jenkins and you've got the McCourty's with Bob Craft. You've got them all saying, OK, we will partner with you on social justice initiatives. We are essentially going to take a big ass fire. Hose to this protest and pour water on it. And we're going to co-opt it. We're going to bring you in. And now you got, you know, you got prison reform stuff going on. You've got legislation. You've got all of a sudden you've got all of these athletes now standing side by side at state houses talking about talking about real change. Meaningful change. Meaningful change. And then you had Dak Prescott out there going, well, I'm all about real change, which is a shot directly at Kaepernick. Like, I'm not. You know, and that was the other narrative that we heard. What was the phrase we were hearing that whole year? Well, you can't just take a knee. Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can. Because if there's one thing that we know about this world, bodies in the streets change the world. Right. You can hit like on Facebook all you want. Go hop on CNN International. People are in the street. And that gets people's attention. And so the idea that you couldn't just. Take a knee was the players undermining themselves. Undermining themselves under the promise. That the Terry Pagoulas of the world are going to take care of you. The most paternalistic shit I'd ever heard.
Speaker 3Well, also not really addressing the basic idea that got us here, which is the idea that his song is that holy. That's right. But you're not going to win that battle, right?
Speaker 4You weren't going to win that.
Speaker 3Right. You're not going to win it. But I do think it's more. More goes. It is worth it every now and then. Right. To bring attention back to the fundamental idea of what we're talking about, which is what you do when they play a song. Right. But when you get to 2017, and I think you mentioned this a little bit. I think this is an important thing to note is that since Colin wasn't playing. These actions and things also became a bit jumbled because it start to raise the question about. So how important if we started here by talking. About the way that the police treated black people or just the way America treated black people. Now, the front and center issue, rather than being that becomes, does Colin Kaepernick have a job? Should Colin Kaepernick have a job?
Speaker 4Right. Well, that's right.
Speaker 3Now, that to me, I think, is an interesting and maybe under-discussed complication of everything that we are discussing. Just because now we're not realizing. Like, we get into this, are you doing anything about meaningful change and everything else, but we're not really talking about the issue. anymore which I think that Colin especially through that 2016 did a fantastic job of bringing attention to the issue beyond just attention to him then it's funny then once he was gone the attention then went to him well that's
Speaker 4that's right and I and I think that's exactly what complicated things because people were very complicated and they were ambivalent a lot of the players weren't happy with Colin you know once it became personal when when when you shift away from the issues you really did have three issues here you had one what the police relationship with black America was which is an ongoing 50 year 100 200 year issue right which is really where all this started then you had the secondary issue which was the athletes voice like what can they actually do and say and affect and and how was that relationship going to work both with their employer and then also how is it going to work with the public but then you had this other thing as well and this other thing was once again labor you had a moment in time there where the players association had never really thought that this was part of its job right the players association job was to protect the safety of the players to protect the working conditions of the players to protect the economic situations of the players and now you're they're being asked to do something so they're being asked to move on the fly and while they're being asked to move on the fly you've got these rogue elements whether it's Anquan Bolden or Malcolm Jenkins or or Devin McCourty they they have individual relationships with their owners which is undermining the strength of the unity of the union all of this is happening under the back and within the backdrop of how we actually feel about Colin because once the issue shifts toward him not working now a lot of people are like well what do you expect right then it suddenly now it becomes a job issue which is like well you know you you mess with your employer your employer is going to mess back and then I don't remember what year it wasn't 2017 I think it was 2018 when he actually then sued the league and then of course the response to then because you as you said this is a very conservative group a very a group that understands where its bread is buttered how are you going to get a job if you sued your employer you're finished right and so the lack of sympathy increased and it's like how how can we ride with you they weren't going to ride with them in the first place because you know in 2016 when they were having these meetings about hey what are we going to do and how are we going to do this and yeah and we had a lot of people who were really kind of excited about being active then the question came back to okay well who's the leader and when Colin didn't show you know that that that was a role he was really into when he was like hey man everyone do what they're going to do there were a lot of people who were like hey man we said we were going to run up this hill behind you and now you're not here and so now if it's everybody for themselves I'm protecting my paycheck because that's what I was saying earlier Beau about how the most important thing of this entire 10-year anniversary of cap what I take most from that was the chilling effect was the way that everybody coalesced around making sure that none of y'all did this again yeah I mean there I mean there are players that we can talk about who Antonio Cromartie didn't work like there are a lot of players who were like yeah yeah I'm a pro-ath I can I can speak you know and in the NBA it was a little different because LeBron was giving them because he was LeBron but if you don't have that sort of protection in your statistics on the back of your baseball card on the back of your football card you were very much exposed to losing your livelihood and that is the huge piece of it where a lot of the more shrewd players were sort of like wait a minute I know how this is gonna go yeah I and I can't afford and it's not a bad question to ask right I mean it's not a bad question to ask right I mean it's not a bad question to ask right I mean it's like it's one of the things that you saw over the last couple of years on college campuses people were asking you to asking professors to sign this and sign them people like no no no no because I know where this is gonna go does that make you a coward maybe do we need different strategies also but does it also show the opposition the power of the opposition that you're up against absolutely absolutely you're up against all of the full force of this country is coming up against you and once you sign or once you take a knee or once you raise a fist and they throw you to the side you'll get a two-day news cycle and then everybody will go back to loving the system because the
Speaker 3truth is the difference between Colin and everybody else in the 2017 thing this is a very important thing to note is that the league basically gave people permission to do what they were going to do after the sons of bitches quote right like after that the difference was Colin didn't ask nobody they managed the protest right they did like the only person that I could think of off the top of my head that I feel clearly suffered some consequences based on their participation in some form of protest was Marcus Peters when the Chiefs got rid of him and the money that he never really got Eric Reid is a bit more of a he wasn't as good a football player as Marcus Peters was that where where their argument of well you know they were trying to move very move read from safety to linebacker which is never a good sign but at that way around yeah yeah yeah but at that point it was kind of like you know when they said Colin wasn't good enough to play that was ridiculous but they started saying that about Eric Reid it was like yeah I could kind of see the argument that you're making here but Peters Peters never got up to the money that you normally get for the production and things he did at cornerback he could find teams that were willing to take him but not necessarily teams that were willing to keep him but the reason for that is not because the league wasn't punishing people as much as cats weren't trying them like it reminds me when you get to the 2020 bubble and we all talked about how corny the slogans were on the back of the jerseys and the people on the in the league will tell you we didn't turn anything down that's what they that's what they came to us with like it was self-regulated in that regard what we did also get was the players coalition which I think is actually been more interesting than I thought it would be at the time now the issues with the coalition were obvious most notably that the NFL had control of the board any money that the NFL was putting forth the players had to match so it wasn't you know but I wound up I think it was Torrey Smith that I was on the phone with who talked to me when it happened he was like look I hear everything that you're talking about but he was like this amount of money is more than they do for the salute to service these things and he really laid out what they thought was a case for a good deal that they had gotten from the NFL and I will say that if you go through and look at the organizations that the players coalition supports it reminds me of when NBC had the Richard Pryor show and they were running those episodes but nobody at NBC had actually watched them and then they did after five episodes and were like what the fuck man get this off the air what are you talking about they are actually giving some money and supporting some organizations that are a little bit more radical than I am in some cases like one of those we're talking about destroying the whole criminal justice and prison system and everything else and NFL money is going in that direction they killed the protest but if one were making the argument that meaningful change quote unquote was the thing the players coalition has invested in organizations who do that but you don't necessarily know about that which shows the limitation of the idea that all there is to do is to quote unquote enact meaningful change that there are there's power in the words power that one could argue Kaepernick ceded by deciding that he wasn't going to talk anymore power that the players ceded by making this trade with the players coalition while also I think it's important to make note that the coalition I think has done better work than any of us thought that it would have going in
Speaker 4well let's I mean let's be very clear about this they didn't you can't say that the players that the players coalition did nothing yeah because because to extract money from those owners in the first place was a real thing to be able to articulate to people who by the way at the ballot box are giving money to or giving money to ideas that they reject at the ballot box is a real thing in of itself now maybe that's just the cost of doing business and odds all attacks right off when you're at you know at Terry Bakula's you know at his dollar amount but I
Speaker 3had Terry Bakula who said we needed a black figurehead who we need to get to in the next
Speaker 4episode Jason and also let's not forget this was also happening at the same time where you had Bob McNair going the inmates are running the asylum the prison the prison the inmates are running the prison yes right and so all of these things have to be put into consideration have to be taken into context and it all feels sort of quaint now because it does feel like a million years ago but it wasn't long ago and I think that all of this is also in the backdrop of something else that we that we don't talk about nearly enough anymore and that's 911 so all of this. So you've got this thing happening at the exact same time. You've got all these flags and flyovers and taking place. So the NFL field is its own sort of political battleground for how we view ourselves. And that, the players coalition, I think, I'm not going to say they get a bad rap because I feel like where I am most critical of them is simply, I feel like they could have gotten everything that they had gotten. I think they could have gotten that and 10 times more if they had stayed unified. I don't think that there was anything out there that they had gotten that they couldn't have gotten elsewhere. Right? I mean, do you really think that during that time period, there wasn't corporate money out there for those big names? I mean, they could have, but the. The NFL money was the easiest money. You didn't have to go work that hard for it. And there was a leverage that the players had because of what Trump had said. There was a feeling at the time that this is something that we should do. And so Costa doing business, and I'm sure they viewed it as a win-win. The players are like, look, we're getting real money here. And when you're dealing with those athletes and most people in general, money is the barometer for everything. And it's the one tangible thing. They handed us $20 million. And that's a real thing. And it actually, that real money helps real people. So there's no argument there. To me, the issue had always been that they had allowed themselves to be splintered relatively cheaply. There's a bigger issue there. And that was of unity, which the Players Association has very rarely had when it's come to any kind of organizing since 87.
Speaker 3Now, the last thing I want to get to that I actually somehow managed to lose track of, which is such a huge thing that you were yourself a part of. We fast forward to the year of our Lord 2019, right? And so we're looking five months or so before the world shuts down. Well, we have no idea that this is the direction that things are going to go in. And we're going to talk to Jason England about 2020 and beyond, because that's when all of this, I feel like really comes to a head with or without Colin. But November 29th, we're going to talk about the year of our Lord 2019. We've had all this discussion about Colin not having a job, Colin not having a job. Colin has sued the NFL, a lawsuit that would later be settled. It is my understanding that Roger Goodell really, really was hoping that somebody would give Colin Kaepernick a job, that that was his preference for a number of reasons, that this was not, when you say the NFL was keeping Colin out, it was not Park Avenue's idea to do this. But the 30, 22 member franchises, they were their own, they were their own situation. But a workout was scheduled for Colin Kaepernick for November 16th, 2019. And the teams are supposed to be there. I think Hugh Jackson was the one that they had
Speaker 4running it, running
Speaker 3the workout.
Speaker 416 Hugh Jackson.
Speaker 3That's right. It was supposed to be because he was, they need somebody to do this. That could be similar. He's a black dude to white people seem to like, you know what I mean? Like they, they thought they could get this soldiers, a good company. Yep. Somebody had to do this, right? He also, you know, all trying to get himself some looks, right? Trying to get back on. He's there. It is supposed to be at the facility in Flowery Branch, the Falcons facility. One Howard Bryant is in Atlanta for this. Called you that day, didn't I? You did. You did. Cause you were on the road. I was like, where am I? Right? Yeah. You were trying to figure out where you were going. I'm like, look, man, you're going out to the North. I don't really got no, I can't really help you on that. But the thing that happened was they tried to get Colin to South, some crazy waiver that basically said that if you do this, you can't ever sue us. And him in a t-shirt that said Kunta Kinte on it, which was quite a choice. I will just throw out there. It's like sort of Prince putting slave on his chief. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Not that I don't understand where you're coming from, my brother. I'm just not sure that that is what I would have recommended that you do under these circumstances. But anyway, that workout was that workout got canceled. And then you had to fly across, fly all the way over to the South side and go to Charles drew high school for another workout. Like I remember talking to you on that day, but what was that day? Like being in the midst of the store, by the way, while your employer didn't even know you were there, right?
Speaker 4They didn't even know I was there. All of that was something I was at the Apollo theater first time and only time I've ever been to the Apollo. Um, I was there for a screening, uh, of a Lynn Novick's film prison behind, I'm sorry, college behind bars and the Bard prison initiative. Um, Lynn Novick people don't know is Ken Burns's, uh, business partner. They did all kinds of great films together. And my text messages are blowing up. There's a workout for Colin Kaepernick. I'm like, what? And it's in Atlanta and it's in a couple of days. And this is, I'm like, this is a real thing. So suddenly here we go, pack up, go down to Atlanta, go to flowery branch, sitting outside and everybody's out there sort of waiting. And it was once again, it was America for you. It was, you know, the nine protesters out there honking there, you know, showing how angry they are at the un-American Colin Kaepernick. And then on the other hand, there were the 18 pro Kaepernick people out there. And in between there was all kinds of noise going on between the sides. Is this actually, going to happen? And that was the thing. Like I was in contact with both the NFL and the Kaepernick team back and forth because as the hours were going on, I'm like, okay, what teams are going to be here? And the teams actually weren't like the teams were not, um, committing. They weren't giving us a list of who was actually going to be there. Then all of a sudden the list started to trickle out and then you started to see, okay, who was actually going to be there? And it turns out it was like junior members of like every team because it was on a Saturday and that's a scout day. And it was like, there's it's game day the next day. And so most of the executives aren't going to be there. I'm like, well, how serious is this? If none of the actual talent evaluators are going to be there, but just the fact that it was happening was electric because it seemed like maybe something was going to happen. And then as we start to get closer and closer to the time period that the workout's going to happen, they're still negotiating the term terms. And I'm like, you guys still don't have terms. And so now things are starting to go south. It's like, all right, I think this whole thing's not going to happen. It's not, you know, and everyone's standing there waiting and you're seeing all the buses go in and all the cars and the check-ins to see which teams are there and which ones aren't. And what I found amazing about this was that there was another lack of trust. That this was clearly an impromptu thing that somebody felt that they could jam in and nobody was buying it. And that spoke to me mostly to just how divided or how divisive this issue had really become. I wonder how history is going to treat this, if history is going to remember any of this at all, because we don't even have history anymore for the most part. But this is all one guy. This is Colin Kaepernick. And this is now year three of this. Right. And by the time we are supposed to go, I get a text saying, workouts off. I'm like, the workouts off came down here for nothing. And then I get another text two minutes later going, Colin's holding his own workout. Location TBD. Yeah.
Speaker 3And like all the rabble-rousers, I'm like, what are we going to do about this? I'm like, what are we going to do about this?
Speaker 4and so that was sort of fascinating in of itself and so but at the end of the day when it all came down to it you had these warring factions you had the dueling factions of you know the Kaepernick camp saying none of this is real you guys are trying to railroad me you wanted my footage it just became this negotiation and on the NFL side it was like this dude's not really about it you know he's not about it do you really want to be a professional football player and I think that
Speaker 3also keep in mind by then that grievance has been filed it has been settled and one of the great mysteries that depends on who you talk to is how much money do we have how much money did he actually get yeah like I don't know anybody I know people who are very clear in their belief that it is up here and down here I guess right I personally have no idea but it has been settled by then but there's there's animus there's still animus
Speaker 4and there's a lot of it and I and I think that to me that was the that was the end of it all because the NFL I mean and when I say the end of it all what I'm really getting at Bo is what you had said at the start of the show which was there was only one way that Colin was going to be able to escape the the position that he was in his stance his feeling and that was to undermine it and that the NFL was making it very very clear if you want to be a part of the National Football Association you got to play ball with us right this is on our terms it's our league it's ours it's not all of ours it's ours and we allow you to play in it and I think that was the that was the thing to me at that moment that really put the question of protest into into really really sort of clear and stark relief and I think that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's going to be really really clear and stark relief are you willing to lose everything for this like that was where the Colin I mean if you just take all the different roads and what do they actually lead to what they lead to is Colin Kaepernick was like I don't really want to be part of this anymore right while at the same time and I depends on who you talk to and what your own feelings are at the same time there's also this feeling that Colin never really knew the depth of how bad it was going to get did he ever really believe that it was going to come to this when he when when he sat by that water cooler and that preseason game did he really believe that this was going that this was the beginning of the end of his professional life and to me that's the the question that sits inside of him you know what I mean because I don't think we'd ever really seen anything like like it to that to that degree and and I still to this I mean I'm asking him did you know that this was going to be a possible outcome when you started this and he said yes and I still don't know how deeply he believed that because he was still a good player back then and then seven months later
Speaker 3it all came to a head with George Floyd which Colin wasn't involved in but had everything to do with Colin and the next episode we are going to talk to Jason England about what happens after all of this right like once it's clear there's no more Colin Kaepernick career how does the future affect him everything else that is how we'll wrap this up but first that's my man Howard Bryan this is kings and pawns if you turn it on the back is say extraordinary praise because it's an extraordinary book that got extraordinary praise be sure to check this out if you have not checked it out already my brother I appreciate you now thank you
Speaker 4all right and ladies and
Speaker 3gentlemen thanks so much for joining us here on the right time we do this during the summer every now and then Mike McQuaid having everything behind the scenes thank you sir hit the voicemail line three two three five nine six seven seven six seven remember follow the right time subscribe like rate us review us give us five stars you'll give us four stars I'm inclined to believe you are a hater and we'll talk to you guys in a couple of days take it easy
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