306. How the GOAT Fuels, Single v. Double Workouts, Heat and Altitude Study, Caffeine Genotypes, and Building Bone Density!

- Woohoo! Welcome to the Summer Call Play Podcast. We are so happy to be with you today. - Happy Tuesday. - It's Tuesday. - And we're firing up our best kitchen knives on this Tuesday. - Oh yeah, kitchen knives. I was getting well-equined with the knife last week. - You really were. - Yeah. - Actually, not too well-equated, which was my fear. You were cutting towards your body. - Okay, I did cut my finger a little bit. - Yeah, it's unsurprising. - It was worth it. And so this was all about science. So we've talked about my issue with trails shoes in the past. And the Adidas Agrivic Speed Ultra 2 came out and it gained so much weight. So I really got methodical with this test. So the ASU1, the shoe that I wore for Leggo and all of my other races, was 9.38 ounces in my size. The ASU2 is 10.2 ounces in my size. And so I thought, well, if weight is the disqualifying factor here, you know what we have to do? Shed off some of that weight. - And you are doing it by cutting off the love. - What a steak knife. - Yeah, I mean, obviously there's better ways to do this. - You could use a belt sander, but do I seem like the type of guy that has a belt sander at home? - You did order a sander for $5 on Amazon. And it was terrible. - Yeah, just a little. - Kind of like a nail file. - You were like nail filing the logs in the shoes. I'm like, that's not gonna work. It's gonna take a long time. - So I took this knife and just chopped off some of the unnecessary logs. Not the whole thing, just part of them. But in the process, it wasn't very precise. And I did. - Dude, you were cutting towards your body. That is like steak knife 101. - Not the whole time. - Just a little bit. - I cut in terms of-- - I walked into the kitchen. You were literally just sawing directly towards your chest. - Well, man, while sawing off some of the shoe weight, maybe I can saw some of my finger weight. - Yeah. - Okay, so in this process though, I documented it all of these. I thought I had achieved Nirvana. And sure enough, I got this shoe from 10.2 ounces to 9.6 ounces and still had plenty of logs. And then I took it out on degreeing mountain and boulder and had a transcendently good run. - You were giddy heading into it. - I think you're thinking about all of the video content that I took and you're like, "My Instagram is gonna be poppin', is gonna be great." - Even more than that. I'm like, "I am changing the game." Everyone out there, it's like, if you drop that much weight from it, it's like 6% of the shoe's weight. You're gonna be improving running economy across the board. I'm gonna be changing the game. If a De just can't do it for us, if these other companies can't, I'm gonna be the one that changes everything. - Were you considering just hacking off the shoe laces, just taking some of them off? - Oh, well, I also did that. I realized this shoe. - Did you realize the shoe? - It weirdly has laces that go all the way down to the toes, so it makes your toes go numb. So I relaced them higher and I was like, "Well, now I can do a smaller shoe lace "where you get the shoe real light." So on the final descent of Green Mountain, I caught a route with my left foot and did like a Superman fall, which wasn't the shoes fall. That was a user error on my part. And that happens on this trail periodically when you go this fast. - In fact, I think you've caught the same route before. - Oh, yeah. - I was going back and looking at your travel, looking from when you were going real fast, just down to like zero miles an hour. And I was like, "I think I know this section of trail "from other Strava files." - Like always though, it's a part that's not that technical. It's just the one route that catches you. So me and this route well-quainted at this point. So I fell, got back up, wasn't a big deal, then I looked down at my feet, and oh no, this indestructible shoe, the sole had just ripped down in half. (laughing) So I think my cutting might have messed with the structural integrity of the sole. - Well, it makes sense because you're cutting the lugs, but you're cutting them so deep that you feel like you're cutting into the shoe itself. - Well, I mean, I was hoping that I could just really get this weight down because that's the best thing for the Instagram reel. And so I got the weight down, but at what cost? - Are you gonna get a sander? I'm kind of committed to it now. - Yeah. - You invested, you went hard on this. And like seeing your goodness, I'm like, I feel like we should just have a sander and see what happens. - Yeah, I get a belt sander. Oh my God, can you imagine what I'll do to my hands with a belt sander? (laughing) - There are videos online of cobblers who take shoes and repurpose them. In fact, I've read about, I think Hoka has a cobbler that works with their pro athletes to change their shoes. - Wait, what? - I'm not 100% sure. I think outside of an article on this, someone shared it with me, I didn't read it. - I think it's also time to upgrade the name from a cobbler to something else. - Yeah, cobbler sounds like it. (laughing) - Achieve where else? - Yeah. - So yeah, still disappointed in the shoe, also disappointed in myself, but I've just decided I'm gonna commit to the Hoka Rocket X Trail. I'm just gonna run on it. It's very light and accomplishes most of my purposes. And yes, it causes my big toes to get ripped to all hell. But that's a small price to pay for how bad most trails shoes are. - We did a long run together this weekend. Actually, our first long run in a minute. I felt like every mile you were making a comment about the shoes and I was like, - How good they were. - Yeah, I was like, I was like, - Megan, I've decided I'm just positive now. I'm no more of that shoe snob bullshit that I used to be. I realized that the whole time the problem was me, not the shoes. - Actually, we did a hike with Leo this weekend. And he wanted to run most of the downhills back to the car. And I was like, what is happening? This is so cool. But he's running in like the equivalent of a van skateboarding shoes. They're like, velcroed together. They're barely held together. - We've had these shoes for over a year that he's been wearing. - He's like really broken the man. And I'm like, David, you would retire from trail running altogether. If you had to wear the pair of shoes that Leo was sending it in. - Oh my god, yeah. - In fact, I'm kind of disappointed in him. We should get a paternity test that ain't my boy. - He's not a shoe press. - Okay, let's get on to that. So this is such a good one. Quick road now. We're gonna talk about improving bone density. The best news ever from Megan cannot wait for this one. Then the boss of marathon, Tadeh Pagaccio's fueling. - This is wild. A study on heat training and altitude that upends the conventional wisdom. And I love that as a broader scientific discussion. A study on single versus double workouts. Caffeine response based on genotype. Super choosing injury risk. Plus a Q&A on sleep, video games, leveling up and more. - Video games, I like that. - Yeah, I mean, that was a really a question. It was just someone that gave us tips on how I can finally play video games and I'm excited for it. - It was done spoiler alert via the bike. And this morning, I had a moment where I was doing the Zwift Peace Groups. And I gave you shit for this last week. - Yeah, last week we talked about this and you just sat on me. You roasted me on the podcast as I talked about riding, looking up, constancies, looking like whole situation. (laughing) - The pace through. - It seems like you just panicked there. What was it? - I did. - Last week we really committed to saying the word taint, like 47 times. - You, not me. - You definitely participated. - I would love a taint count from last week's podcast. I'm sure someone could do it. (laughing) - I'm sure it was at least like 70, 30. - Taint count, this is rigged. So we said it so much last week. I didn't wanna jump back into the taint discussion without context. (laughing) But you did it this morning for the first time in a long time. - And I was hyped. I was like, I can't believe it's taking me this long to commit to the peace group and I loved it. And it's like this is my own version of a video game. I had just a short like 30 minute ride this morning and I was really sad when it was over. - And you rode with your shock. - I rode a shock. - I know. How perfect is that? You have constant, I have shock. - Megan, you can't get everything you need from your relationship. Sometimes you go outside it and you spice it up. - It's true. I also dropped a shock a few times. I might need to level up to the next peace group, but you know what, that's a good thing for my relationship. - Yeah, that's what you want in your relationships. - I wanna leave my man in a dust. - You wanna be the top. - Yes, true. - I love to pause there. - I just feel like we can so leave that in. - Okay, the most exciting news of all is you got your Dexter scan results back. I think you got the Dexter itself on Friday. This is a bone density scan. And why don't you tell the listeners what we learned and what they can learn. - It looks so much better. So I feel like I've just been this sad girl about my bone density because I've had like, you know, a regular period for since like college. - A regular, not your regular. - A regular, a normal menstrual cycle. And I feel like I've worked so hard for that. And then I've had to take a lot of print and zone for my heart. Also for a sacrily, I just related to like, the autoimmune stuff that I've had. And it was so sad because it's like directly toxic to bones. - Yeah, I feel like every time you took one of those pills, your heart just sent. - It's just like, goddamn. - And there's pregnancy mainly that you had to stay on it for an extended period of time with Leo because they were worried about that. And so that was a much more extended period than like the smaller courses that people might take some time. - I was probably on it for a year and a half, too, which is a really long time to be on a medication that's like toxic to bones. And so it tanked my bone density specifically like in my spine. - Yeah. - And so I've been following it and thinking about it. And you know, there's been so many times on downhills where I'm just like bombing a downhill and a trail. And I'm like, oh, just pray for my sacrily. - Yeah, yeah. - Thinking about this. And so I was a little nervous actually heading into the deck. So just being like, you know, what's happened to my bones? I've been really focused on feeling just knowing that's like a big impact. And then it got so much better. - Yeah, and it got better beyond what could be expected from past research. And that's one of the most exciting parts of all to broaden this out is your numbers, exemplify what we see in coaching all the time. And in just podcast listeners, that if you do things like Megan's about to talk about, whatever number you have is not destiny. Even though they say so much of your bone density is formed when you're young, yes it is. But you can reverse those trends through these approaches and waste it, go far beyond what you see in scientific studies. I think it shows a limitation of the science but also shows what is happening right now with fueling and supplementation. - And I feel like I've had, I've seen some cases of bone density that's improved beyond what we expect from like scientific literature. And I was holding that in my head this last year thinking about that. And so I improved 1.1 standard deviations in my spine in a year, which is a lot. And so I was pumped and I ran a downhill this weekend and I was like, oh yay. My bone density's normal again. - You were running so good on the downhills. I mean, I can see how that would play a huge role of time. And so what's your advice to people that are in this dilemma? And I think that goes for most listeners, even if you don't have like chronically low bone density. Improving bone density is something that matters to everyone because it doesn't only determine health now as an athlete, it determines health when you're 75 and you fall down in the shower or something like that. - I think the biggest thing for me was just thinking about fueling. And so I was like, I'm gonna do high-carb fueling on any run. over 60 minutes and just try to give my bones like as much substrate as possible to heal on recover between sessions. - You're the best fuel I've ever seen. - Did a lot of cross-shirting too. And I think that helped a ton, along with just like, you know, continued hormonal health. And then I did, I actually think the advanced bone support by Thorn is an incredible supplement. And at first for like six months of taking it, I didn't realize you're supposed to take it twice a day. - Ah yeah. - And then I read the label and I was like, "Oh no, I'm missing some bone gains." And so I took that morning and night and I actually think that helped a ton. - Yeah, I think so it's called Thorn Advanced Bone Builder. I think I've gotten. (laughing) - Are you making, I'm gonna improve the tank count here. - No, no, there's a truck stop on the New Jersey Turnpike. Like an advanced bone builder at the time. (laughing) - As a top. - No, no, I'm the bottom. I'm the bottom. (laughing) - But yeah, that's a great supplement. You also take Thorn vitamin D, you get that at the deed. And I think you do take a lot of vitamin D in calcium. You really emphasize that. Then you're loading a ton with the kids. Like you're lifting all the time. And yes, you don't do the tons of strength work that some of the plans might indicate. But I think if you don't have kids, you probably have to think about exactly how you're gonna do that. Because you are constantly lifting Leo now. And he's gotten to be quite a heavy kettle. - Yeah, he requests being lifted a lot. There's been times when I've carried him back like a full mile of my hike. And I think for me, I was a little bit surprised about this context because I just don't feel great with heavy strength training in my life. And I don't know if that's because I have like a predisposition to having inflammation. But I've really dialed back the strength training. And so I think that's why I was a touch nervous about the steps of, 'cause I was like, how are my bones gonna build without, you know, the standard dose of plyometrics or heavily weighted squats and dead left. And I think those are amazing for building bone density. They just don't work for me personally. And to see the bone gains without those, I don't think I did a single plyometric this year. - Yeah. - Maybe just like really happy. - Bone gains. (laughing) - Title of the podcast right there. - We bound up. - But for everybody out there, like the feeling that you do, like seeing Megan behind the scenes. So yes, the feeling of training is amazing. But then the feeling outside of training, every day after training, you're taking science and sport beta recovery. So that's a huge power. It is that you're just trying to stay on top of that. You do as many burgers as you say. (laughing) In fact, the other day coming down, I was like, you know Megan, I went some vegetables and you're like, I want a smash burger. - Okay, smash burger is so good. - Respect. - Hey, hey, hey. - Now I was happy with our decision. But like, you know, you've lived that fully for so long. And then you're voting your body in different ways. You know, kids, you do weight best sometimes around the house. - You give me shit for that weight best. I think the weight best actually is a significant component. And every time I wear it, I feel like there's a little part of you that's like laughing at me. - I mean, I'm not laughing. I'm not laughing at the physiology of it. I'm laughing at you like a clown. - Yeah, yeah. - No, you're amazing. - Actually, there's been a lot of times that I'm like wearing the weight best and carrying Ollie at the same time. And I'm like, this is 45 pounds of weight. - Yeah, it's so incredible. And then, you know, the running approach where you're not overdoing it. You're not like going out on 30 mile runs for no reason. You're focusing on power. Your training is so emphasized on power. And so that's why if you look at the swap training plans, we even have a power builder training plan designed for this. But that's everything we're focused on. It's power power power. Running is a power sport. And Megan, you have built your body to be able to handle that in such a beautiful way. So obviously, you could still have a bone injury at any moment in any one coat. And it's not your fault ever if that does happen if to anyone out there listening. But playing this game, like you can give your body the best shot possible. - And it was so exciting to me. Like now when I do strides, I'm like, these are my plyometrics. Like plyometrics are great, but you can also get that stony less in other ways if it's a little bit too much for you. - Or bike sprints. - Exactly. - You know, we talked about a study that found high torque bike sprints are better or as good as squats for strength development. And it doesn't mean that that's bone loading. It's obviously different. But if you're focusing on power all the time, the body can develop power in a way that kind of blows, blows the blows. (laughing) - Blows out of the water, what is expected from the scientific studies? - And I think too, if you've been in this position of having low bone density, it is not your destiny. - Yeah. - And I feel like for me, there's been one athlete in particular. She listens to this podcast, hi. I think she probably knows who she is. Who is how just remarkable bone density gains. To the point that like when I see her dexas, I have cried before, which is like kind of wild to look at a PDF on a computer and just like have tears coming down your cheeks. But like, you know, her journey was so meaningful to me. And like we see these numbers. And so if you have lower bone density, especially like in a spine, we see that a lot in runners. Like it is not your destiny and hold hope and hold belief and then get those carbs on board. - Absolutely. And then the supplementation too. And finally, there are in really extreme cases, medications that go specifically to bones that come with other risks and side effects. - Actually, that was the cool thing. Because a lot of times the big positive gains that I see are done with Forteo, which is a bone building medication or estradiol, which patch, which can help hormones. And have any of those on board. And it's really nice to see bone density gains like without that context. - Yes, absolutely. Just so proud of you. And the last thing on our life is, we're going to the Boston Marathon this week. - Hi, five. - Hi, five. - This can be a date weekend. - No kids, we're so excited. We'll report back next week about everything we learn. I'm monitoring the weather obsessively. You can imagine my dad meteorologist ability. - Oh, I love it. I wanted to be a meteorologist as a kid. I feel like we'd have had some good conversations. - Oh my gosh. I'm so hyped right now. It looks like a tailwind. Who knows? But we get a tailwind. It's going to be extra spicy. So everybody out there root for Jess McClain in a man-to-vestory. They're just two incredible humans. They're so ready. But at the same time, we're just excited to celebrate with them, whether it's the best day or the worst day. And also just experience Boston. I've never been. - I mean, how is that possible? You went to college in New York. It's not that far from Boston. - Yeah, well, I didn't particularly appreciate New York. - Yeah, you're like, "I'm only going to travel south. We're not going to go anywhere more north." How are we going to get around the course? So we thought about that yet. - Nope. I'm actually talking to Andy Burfoot, who was one of the top journalists in running history about how exactly he recommends it since he's been to every Boston. And he knows everything about the course. I'm hoping that we might even find some in with traveling with people that have some special arrangement. - I feel like we should rent e-bikes. How fun would that be? Megan, you want to put me on an e-bike, the guy who cuts towards himself within change. And an unfamiliar city. - Yeah. - What do you think is going to happen? - I mean, maybe we'll make some insurance money. - I guess. - It's super, it's super, actually. - Like this is my long-term investing plan. This is kept even on a series of bikes. (laughing) - I might be the best room to respond to this. Megan's retirement plan. She's just going to new cities and many bikes. - Yeah. (laughing) - Okay, let's go into the rest of the episode. Before we do that, click from over to feed. Go to betfeed.com/swap. EstabratedP. If you're a first-time customer, you get 40% off just by putting in your email there. It is such a good deal. But then $10 back for every $100 spent. And some things even have better deals. So the specifically thing I wanted to talk about this week is Tailwind, DeWalter Mellon? - Why is that flavor so good? - You turned me on to this. - Yes, I had it at an aid station and run-wab at run. And I was like, this is going to be the only drink source I use in my future running. - You literally came into an aid station and said, I just want the tailwind because I had to fill up your bottle with other stuff. - And I was like, don't put out. I just want tailwind. - I did. - It wasted five seconds. And for you and erase five seconds, oh my God. - Five seconds is big. And I was like, I just want that taste. - Yeah, so get the DeWalter Mellon. It's just very gentle tasting. So perfect for everyday runs. And I feel like it's one of those drinks that you can just mix a little bit higher concentration. Like 1.25 for hot days. That will be really effective. So I think I'll be going toward DeWalter Mellon at Leadville this year. And then next up is Innovit Citrus. You put that in, right? I put that in, these are tasty gels. They're the liquid gel, but they have what I love is that they have 25 milligrams of caffeine. Which for me is like a perfect little touch of caffeine. I feel like sometimes 100 milligrams gels, it's like we want to go to Mars. And I simply just want to orbit around the moon and come back. And I feel like 25 milligrams is good for that. - 25 milligrams? - I know. I have 100 milligrams. If I do that consistently in a race, just sense me too far. - Megan. - I know. - I'm disappointed in you. Maybe I'll apply to some listener out there. - I'm sure it will. - I get messages about that all the time. It's like what are lower dose caffeine sources? - Oh my God, a lot of people out here drinking non-alcoholic beer and having 25 milligrams gels. - I did have an athletic brewing this weekend. I was like, "It's so good." - Oh my God. - And I feel a little buzz from it. - Do you know what this is like? It's like the old, old Extra chips. - Oh yeah. - That's really-- - No, this is so different. (laughing) That is so different. It's something that makes you shit forever. - Okay, the thing that you have to listen to is Vinella. We've talked about the studies on Vinella, but I'm hearing from pros that I coach. I've been trying to get a fair number of them on this supplement. So it's a probiotic that is made specifically to help you metabolize the lactate in the gut. And seeing wild results as the season kicks off. Obviously a million confounders. Like if you're following my Instagram and you see the athlete results that were coasting of like all these crazy wins. - It was a wild weekend. - Not everyone is on Vinella, but some of those are and I don't want to give it away. So just check out Vinella. It's by Fit Biomics. Really can't go wrong. And then finally, I just wanted to read a message from a listener because this is beautiful and it kind of shows the journey that you can be on. If you hear these ads and you're just like, maybe this isn't for me, here it is. I just wanted to share that sometime back, David gave some guidance for runners who have struggled with disorder eating in the past to tolerate and run fueling. So this is for athletes that have a history. I wrote a big article on Patreon all about how to deal with gel rejection. So not just ED athletes, but everybody. So like if you have a history of rejecting gels and races and you're just unsure why. It came down to taking a gel every 30 minutes, even on shorter runs, a trial of gels of sorts. - I love that. - Yeah. - Which of you said terminology more often? - I never heard never said that. - That's a great idea for fueling. - A reference to trial of miles, but that's beautiful. The first week, I thought this guidance was nuts. Well, this runner who has never been able to fuel is now knocking down carbs like snow buddies business and I feel incredible. The journey continues. - The trial of gels. - The trial of gels. - Well, thank you. You just gave us an incredible branding. but that's also a beautiful story too. And I feel like we see that a lot of athletes where just like it takes practice and it takes commitment. And then seeing also the downstream effects of what happens to hormones and performance and even just like-- - Or condensate or whatever you're measuring. - Yeah, it's wild. - Basically anything else. - Yeah. - And you know, like obviously, I think your bone density situation happened largely because of prednisone. And by focusing on the feeling, you were able to just go skyrocketing and think about what other things we're not measuring that also is applying to. And so not saying everybody should do a gel every 30 minutes all the time, this is a situation I detail a lot more in that article. But go check that out. And so the feed.com/swap, S-D-A-P, get everything you need, it's so awesome. Now what we're gonna talk about is kind of related to the inner-vit discussion you just had on those really weak sauce gels. (laughing) They also make 100 milligrams gels that are fantastic. - Well, the taste of the gels is so good. Why have they nailed the taste? - Why did it so much better? - Yeah, why is it so much better? - Maybe it's the Tate impact. Tate just has swag and maybe he's like designing the taste. I haven't thought about that. Every inner-vit gel is way better, even though they use different tastes and all of them. It's not like the underlying gel substance is fundamentally better. It's just their flavoring is better. - What's your favorite flavor? - Oh my God, absolutely the mango-entervant. - Which is the Tate gel? - Yeah, but of course it's mango. - Yeah. - But even the ones that aren't Tate gels are incredible. - I had actually a black cherry one this weekend that was literally like Dr. Pepper and a gel. It was delicious. And we did actually at one point in his osc all our ship. And we asked people to design their dream gels. And we got a lot of people say Dr. Pepper, which I agree with. And I was like, here's Dr. Pepper and a gel. - Yeah, well he has an MD. So, it's the right. And so the reason this is relevant is inner-vit posted Tate Pagaccia's fueling. And I always take these with a grain of salt because Tate Pagaccia, the best cyclist of all time, how much is he being totally open and honest about anything he does? We don't know the answer to that question. And cycling especially, there's a lot of misinformation out there. Why would he be saying exactly what he does for everybody else to copy? That's not his style as far as I know that's not many cyclist style. Really, that's swap style. But you don't see that very other places in elite athletes that often. - Well, I feel like if swap is no secrets, Tate, is like all the secrets in the world. - Yeah, I mean, I just think it's that's for in general. You know, you have trade secrets. But so taking it with a grain of salt, inner-vit posted his fueling overall, not just during the race, but around the race. And some interesting wrinkles there that I wanted to talk about. - Okay, I tend to believe this though, because cycling teams have these nutritionists on staff. And literally, everything is weighed, everything is measured. Which to me, it would just be not so much fun as an athlete. - It would be disaster, yeah. - It feels like you're just eating as a business proposition where I like to eat as business and fun. But I actually do trust these numbers because of how tightly controlled it is within cycling. Whereas sometimes I see other, here's what I eat in a day numbers from athletes with histories of like disorder, eating or eating disorders. And I'm like, "Ah, I don't believe that, but I actually believe this." - See the moment of fueling. - Yeah, you can. - You can get business on the top party on the back. - It's actually a great description of fueling. - I know, am I a genius? - Yeah. - I think I am. Okay, so first off is his breakfast. Theoretically, he takes 250 grams of carbs, 40 grams of protein and 30 grams of fat. - That's bonkers. - So that's one quite a large meal. - Yeah, and theoretically, that's three hours pre-race. - Three hours pre-race, respect. And I think if that's true, and based on what I see in cyclist fueling, that is true, like mostly. And that, like Jonas Abrahamson, when he posts his breakfast, they're quite large. And you don't see this in running so much. And maybe that's because of GI Jocelyn. But I think increasing breakfast size is a huge opportunity across the board for high performance. And I wonder if there's some room there, like this is a place I suck is getting in enough at breakfast, especially these types of things before all trips. - Actually, I was having the reflection today that I think in relative to the rest of my day, breakfast is an area where I suck too. And I wonder if that's a common runner tree. - I'm not excited for food in the morning. - That's the thing I wake up and I'm just like, what am I supposed to eat? - Honestly, what I just need is something you can put in the microwaves. Like I don't, I wanna get right to work. Like maybe that's part of our problems. We're just going to it. And I don't know. I'm also just kind of superstitious about my GI issues, though maybe I shouldn't be. Maybe breakfast would make it better. - That's true, actually. - So. - Is getting something on board. - I remember at the World Championships, Zach Miller. - Oh my goodness. - At breakfast, New Zach Miller, one of the greatest ultra-enters of all time, doing instant no packets that I think he had brought from America. And it was just packet, packet, packet. And he was so far ahead of the game, he's no one else was doing that. - And then he was just drizzling goo on top of it. - Oh, yeah. - That was like, you're baby, there was like a chocolate goo thing and I was like, holy shit. Meanwhile, we're over here eating like a single croissant before we're racing. - Yeah, and for me, not even that sometimes, you know? So I need to step up my game. And then before the race, another 60 grams of carbs with five grams of protein and three grams of fat, I think it also is relevant that their races start later. Often they're starting mid days so that the races end as a lot of people are watching TV. So you can see how that might be different. Then during the race, 130 grams of carbs per hour with just a little bit of protein of that. So almost nothing. And then post-race, 120 grams of proteins of big protein and then obviously tons of calories overall. So yeah, I mean, the fueling isn't just within the race. So 130 grams is a ground what you're seeing across cycling. It's just all the time when you're training that hard and working that hard, you kind of just need to keep the fire burning. - And if you add up all the numbers across breakfast, dinner, and then there's like in race feeling, it comes out to around 7400 calories, which is a lot of caloric density in the day. - Was that on Instagram posts? - Yeah, you can actually, if you do. - Or did you do like, do the math in your. - I do the math. So they broke it down total. - Okay, okay. - So that's like 1500 grams of carbs, 169 grams of protein and 82 grams of lipids, which is around 7400 calories. And so you think about that, he's doing a five and a half hour race and warming up and cooling down. But there's a lot of runners out there that are going for long runs, really long runs. And think about that fueling density or even just like long rides. How much you have to fuel. - Yeah, it's a thing's a lot different with running, just because. - Oh yeah, also Todd is putting out crazy power. - It's getting right back to training, maybe even the next day or two days later. So a little bit different maybe on overall, but the demand element is just so interesting. And then the 130 grams an hour during, once again, another vote for it. In the context of this, I tried to look up with the best female cyclists we're doing. And so I put in every female cyclist name, carbs per hour, and it's wild how little information there is out there for the women. But Demi Voering, who is probably the best female cyclist, I think there's an argument for her, does 100 plus grams per hour. So even for the women, you're seeing triple digits in carb intake. And so, yeah, again, cycling, it has just been overtaken fully by high carb during these activities. But in running, while high carb, we are pushing it and it is still, it is gaining traction. You'd be shocked if you just listened to the SWAT podcast. How much pushback we get from people being like, well, you don't exercise all that. And not even low-car people, people being like, well, we took this person into the lab and they actually only need this much. And it's like 80 grams per hour. And yes, that would be fine if you're at 40. It'll make you wait better. But the idea being that I really wanted to mention is if you do a test like that, you were getting a snapshot in time. And just like if you looked at your fitness in a snapshot in time and then assume that was your fitness forever, that hopefully wouldn't be the right answer. You would improve or change as you go. Similarly, as we look at car oxidation and what you need, once you train it, once you get better at high output and get better at actually adapting to absorbing that much, not just gut-wise, but then get the muscles that can use it, you'll also be pushing it higher. So basically push the number higher during hard training in hard racing and you're gonna be rewarded. - And I think too, when you think about the context of this, there was actually a number of people commenting on this post diabetes in reference to Tata. I think there's just pushback within cycling too and we're just not aware of it. - Okay, so I guess we're almost like someone that only listens to the swap pod, but for cycling. - Oh yeah, but there's tons of pushback within cycling. And to think about commenting that about Tata, Pogaccia is nuts. Like clearly what he's doing is working. - Yeah, and also he's burning everything he puts in. So just another vote for it. And this is also happening across the female end of this cycling. And that might be the place where there's the biggest opportunity in all training. - Yeah, there's still a lot of really high quality female athletes in all training that I feel like are lower carb feeling. And it makes me wonder. - Well, they may not hold a low carb, but it's low wear a carb. You're often seen under 60 grams per hour. And I'm like, okay, this sport still has so far to go. And that's these women aren't insanely good. But imagine what will happen when just the metabolic equation changes and that's I didn't. And there's obviously this situation in men too, but you see more case studies that are posted of the female athletes being quite low. And so I think it's just like a huge opportunity for the future. And it's obvious that the sport still has a long way to go. Even though those times are already so fast. So, I'm personally incredibly excited to see how that metabolic curve shifts in running as you get more competitive pressure. - Why do you think there is an offset in female racing? I think some of it may be mentality. I feel like when you look at the actual, there's been some studies looking at size differences and gender differences and car boxedization. And it matters slightly, but not at the numbers. Not enough to drop it to the numbers that we're seeing. And I wonder if some of that is just mental approach that it's harder for female athletes to do this. Maybe it's like feel, I don't know. - That might be like a GIS use. - An origin point. And it might provide enough data that gives people confidence to go lower carb. In the sense that maybe some of the people that are going lower carb are having some psychological issues long term with it. And then when their story gets told, people are like, oh, well, you can do this and be successful. Thus, it might not take much to lead people to doing it for what they think are science reasons, but are actually inherited psychological weapons. You know, it's like a contagion almost. But more than that, I think it's because women sometimes can be such freakish fat oxidizers. They can be so high up on that curve that for ultra's, they're just not able to run fast enough to need that many carbs. - That's true. - And this goes only for the freaks. Like the truly best of all time for women when they are have gotten into action. have shown numbers that are pretty bonkers. Thus, you know, would it matter that much to the freaks if they go higher? Maybe it would at the margins, but they probably wouldn't respond to 100 or 120 solely because their mechanical system can't write, can't cash the checks that their, you know, metabolic system might be able to write in that circumstance. Like they basically have to be sprinting the whole time because they're so economical. What do you think? I think that makes sense. I'm curious to see where this goes and how it evolves. And I actually love. I feel like the case reports that precision does and orbit does. I feel like precision started it. And now I've seen a bunch of nutrition companies follow of like, here's what this athlete does during the race. Here's the sodium. He's the here's the fluid intake. I actually find those fascinating. You know, we need what? Parodies. Yeah. I feel like this is my next Instagram thing. Oh, it's gonna be a great Instagram. Fjilling parody. It's just like 275 grams of crocs now or it also makes me wonder too. It's like, you know, when you're out there and there's been studies about how accurate is that actually? And it varies the time. Oh, it varies the time just like the what I eat in the day videos very a time. Oh, it's like, you know, are you getting every bit of that Joe? Like, you know, are you? What is the rough math on that? How much are you drinking? How much are you being? Honestly, you know, like the what I eat in the day videos, I would amestimate 75% of them or total bullshit. I agreed. Yeah. You know, and you talk to athletes and they'll often say, oh, yeah, that was total bullshit. And I want to redo that because now I have a different approach to being totally open about things. And I'm less worried about what people are going to say that like they're going to comment diabetes on this. In fact, I actually think sometimes it's unhelpful for like athletes that are struggling with eating because it's like so easy to do a direct comparison to those videos like up or down that like sometimes they're not the most helpful discussions. But I feel like when it's like, Tade and we're talking about 130 grams of carbs power, I feel better doing it after I have another good race, which are you going to do? I should do one solely because you know if I did one like of a like one of my days, it would hopefully help people just feel like a little bit more open and free. And I feel like we could do it in a way of explaining the science and the nuance. But I feel like it also like for us, it's a lot of stuff like centered around fun of like going to CP burger and Boulder, which is one of our favorite things. Oh my god. Oh, then Cody could come on a date with us. Cody could come on a date with us. Come film our dinner. We could constants and jack come. Oh yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. It's going to be a whole party. Oh, shit. Okay, let's get on to the heat and altitude study. This one is very exciting for me personally. You talked about the study a lot. Oh my god. Megan, when I saw this, huh, you wouldn't shut up. It was great. It's like constant and jack moment. So here's the title, Heat Training Augments, Heemoglobin Mass during a moderate altitude training camp and well trained endurance athletes. And so the context for this is, you know, we've talked in the past many times about how heat training, including passive heat training now improves your Heemoglobin Mass. So increases the amount of red blood cells in your bloodstream due to the plasma volume increase that comes from the heat, subsequently a compensatory mechanism to raise the red blood cell count. So that's very cool. And then on the flip side, altitude helps improve Heemoglobin Mass. That's through the oxygen effects. We talked about that too. But there has long been this conventional wisdom that heat and altitude are not additive effects. So if you do heat and altitude, it might be bad. And there are so much people online, so much conversation about this that says don't combine the two because it doesn't work. And it all cites back to a study or two that comes from like ancient history. And so I was always like, huh, that seems weird. But I guess I have to say what the science says rather than what I think. And now I have a study that says that science was probably bullshit. Well, I wonder now how often we have to go back and look at some of those ancient times and just be like, we are in a totally different history now when you think about the context of athlete health. Of we have carbs now to support adaptation and hormones. And so maybe athletes now are responding to heat and to altitude and ways they never have before because the overall health is better. Interesting. Yeah. Well, there are the studies that find that reduced energy consumption reduces Heemoglobin overall. Oh, substantially. And so like if you can't get your iron stores high and it could be under-fueling, we've talked about those studies in the past. Thus if you're trying, if you have a limitation, it might not just be iron. It might be like energy levels overall that cause an athlete not to increase the Heemoglobin might have led to those study conclusions. So in other words, you're saying those old studies could have been just seeing energy deficiency. Yeah. And now we're in a different time of athletes can adapt so much more readily. And I feel like there's a lot of science that was done in the past looking at different interventions. And you know, those athletes might not have been fueled the way our athletes are, especially with like, you know, these certainly weren't doing 120 grams of carbs per hour just because no one was back in those days. And so now I feel like athletes are ready to respond to a bunch of different stimuli. I love that point. Yeah. I mean, I think that that could be it. I also just think you have to be careful about taking conclusions from studies unless they confirm your biases. This one confirms mine. Unless you want to talk about it all week and long. Yeah. I mean, but it'd be serious. Like, I think there is a world of coaching and I find that this is exists more in trarining than other places, but it exists everywhere where there's like, oh, well, show me a study for that. And obviously, we talk about studies on here all the time. We love it. But the study is never the thing that should drive the theory because like the study will only find little itty bitty like, uh, inklings about why things happen. And there are too many variables that go into this in two small effect sizes to really find like, there's so many similar studies that find, well, VO2 max changes of 2%. That's just what happens when you measure the same person at different moments. And thus, if we're seeing small itty bitty changes like that, how can you even tease out what causes what when it's one of many interventions that happen in a life. So long story short, I love this study, but take this with the greatest all to. I like the study design too. So what they did was they had them go to moderate altitude, which was 1865 meters, which is 6,000 around 6,000 feet. So not crazy high altitude, but high enough to elicit some of the hemoglobin in EPO based responses. And these are 46 cross country steers or by athletes. And they had a nice mix. It was 20 men and 26 women. Yeah, that was awesome. Wasn't that nice? I also like, did you see the male female like, with symbol? Yeah, they just had the symbol for men or women. It reminded me so much of when you're at a bar or a restaurant and they don't say men or women or, you know, non-gender on the bathroom. They just have some figure up there. And then you have to like look for a figure penis. And you're like, I don't know. I shouldn't be having to look at a figure like this. I definitely made the wrong call before. Same. Same. Like oops. Same. It's like, I shouldn't need to inspect the tape. This should be consensual on everybody's part. Okay. And so they took these groups and they did, uh, split them into three different groups for a three-week intervention. So first group was altitude plus three weekly heat sessions. Second group was just altitude. And the third group was a sea level control. And so, um, the big finding here was that the altitude and heat group had a 2.9% increase in hemoglobin mass. The altitude group had 1.2% and the control group had a loss of 0.2%. And in terms of what they were doing for the heat intervention, it wasn't like huge in terms of number of days per week. So just three days per week, but it was active heat. So they were doing 50 minute sessions in a heat suit. And then having them freely hydrate throughout, which is kind of consistent with how we do active heat days. Yeah. But now we have the studies that say passive heat, mimics active heat when it's done over a long enough period of time. So I'm personally using this as a synonym for heat generally. But that might be taking a scientific step that's not warranted. I think it's great. Also because passive heat is so much more fun. Yeah. And I do worry that active heat at altitude just might be a lot of stress for somebody just overall, um, from a training perspective that it might start to impact the rest of your training. And maybe that relates to the final non-finding here is that there was no between group differences in performance measures. So even though that group that gained team of good mass should have better oxygen carrying capacity get faster increased VO2 max just from that number. They didn't have better performance measures. So yeah, it's probably a little bit more complicated when you have this interact then with training stimulus. And the best part about the passive heat study that was one of our best studies of last year is that it found that those athletes trained just as well because it wasn't a particularly large increase in stress to sit in the sun or hot tub. Like if you're out there and you're like, when should I do passive heat? It's like whenever you freaking want just maybe not right before training. It's just relaxing for the most part you don't need to kill yourself. And I think maybe they just didn't do this long enough to see this performance gain. So it was done over three weeks. And I wonder like there's been some altitude studies looking at like three weeks versus four weeks. And four weeks is often around where you start to see some of those more performance gains. And so maybe they just need to do the study a little bit longer. Yeah, that that could be it. So overall, I just like this one because fines again heat you throw it on in almost any circumstance and it does this change. It increases hemoglobin mass and hemoglobin mass is what drives endurance performance. And especially as you increase duration. So as you go longer and longer in blood volume drops in these events, even as you stay hydrated, having a hemoglobin mass buffer will probably improve fatigue resistance. So this is one of those very easy interventions that is probably ubiquitous among the top end cycling, but might not be gathered by everyone. And it can be so simple. It can be one passive heat session a week like sauna or hot tub, two, three, whatever you can make time for in the context of a busy life. And I think one relevant finding here too is to pay attention to ferritin levels. And so actually to all of the athletes going to altitude only, which I was like, this seems like a bit of a, you know, a confounding variable here is they gave 100 milligrams of ferrous sulfate. So iron supplementation a day a day, which is pretty high iron supplementation. And they didn't give that to the control. They did not give that to the control group, I believe. And so just to support the athletes going to altitude and I was like, maybe we're just seeing some impacts of iron supplementation. Yeah, I mean, that being said, we still seeing a difference between the altitude only group and the heat and altitude. Exactly. Yeah. And I personally tell athletes to do heat when they go to altitude. Like I get questions from people that are doing that all the time. You can probably imagine. And they will say, well, I get their 7, days before, five days before, 10 days before, what do I do? And I say two things. I say, go to the highest altitude you can, and do 30 second hill strides that will improve your cardiac output, which drops when you get to altitude, and get into heat. Do sauna or hot tub. Book an Airbnb that has these types of options, because that will buffer blood volume loss, and it might even enhance your response. Probably I should also say, make sure your iron stores are really good. And so, yeah, I think that this confirms what we'd suspect from the underlying physiology, but it wraps up another loose end that existed in the literature. And it's always exciting when you start to see agreement amongst all these different study principles. And I think sheet now, the book is mostly closed on whether it's effective. I think all that is left to do is like passive versus active, and how much is active even necessary? We don't know the answer to that. And you could do heat snacks too. So I've been like trying to be a little bit more careful with heat coming back from my heart. And so I've just been hopping in the bathtub, post workout, and I love it so much. Oh, you love yourself a bathtub. I really do. And we gave like heat in our household, like amongst the two of us, we kind of have a pact, is considered training time. Yeah. And so I'm like, I'm going to go hop on the bathtub as much training time, and I sit there and I get real hot. And it's great. I'm going to go train in the bathtub. It's really nice. Last week we had a little bit of like alone time. And you can't not stares. You went into the fridge. You grabbed a massive piece of pizza. Put it in the microwave and you took the plate up with a thing of ranch dressing. You know, a thing of ranch dressing. And then you went to the bathtub. I sat in the bathtub and ate it. And then we had a alone time. I was crazy. I was the best thing in the world. But my favorite part was priorities. What is the order of operations for megging? I got to be fueled and warm. And then I was like, I was very happy. Yeah. Actually, it was great. I like, you know, that's a great. Yeah, it's great. Warm up. Honestly, Megan pizza with ranch dressing and I'm kind of warm bath. That is all the four-play you ever enjoyed. We can do this. We can do this. I was so happy. You were so happy. You know, sometime when we're 80 and like listening to this podcast, you're like, that was fucking great. Yeah. Thank you, Mimi and Grandpa. Okay. I feel like we don't need to heat questions there. They're all based in there. All right. Next study on one session for Sue. Actually, before we do that, quick promo for Patreon. What's so cool right now is we are getting tons of messages from people who are having their goal races for early season. And they're just coming in of people doing training plans that are on Patreon. So go to patreon.com/swap. S-do-a-p. You can get full access to the training plans starting at $5. And for $10, we'll do heart rate zones and answer more questions. And here are some messages. Do you just want me to read some of these? Yeah, these are some of my favorite messages. We're getting them a lot now. I mean, athletes doing races. This all came in this morning, literally this morning from this weekend. Oh, wait. Don't read all of those. I made all of them. I saw like one or two in the island this morning. And now there's like 12. Well, because they were all coming in this morning. I feel like how do I choose Megan? These are all inspired. Well, they're all exciting too. Be this not about Patreon. It's about athletes that are seeing their potential. No need to respond to this. Just wanted to say a massive thank you. Never really done too much speed work, but I've just completed the 5K/10K plan. In the space of eight weeks, I've literally dropped a minute off my zone two pace going from nine to nine 30 to eight 15 to eight 45 minutes for my own. Damn. This has made such a difference on how much mileage I've been able to fit in and has drawn me up from 18 to 23 miles per week to 25 to 30 miles per week. Most importantly, I feel absolutely bombproof. Thanks so much. So I'll improve 5K/10K plan. Give that a try. Thank you, David. I really appreciate you taking the time to calculate these. I used them for my first 100K and found it to be a helpful guide where I set a big PR. So this is heart rate zones. So use that. Um, dear David Megan, just wanted to say huge thank you for your training plans. I followed your advanced 12-leak marathon plan and yesterday ran a sub 330 in my first marathon, which exceeded all my expectations. A year ago, I wouldn't have even dreamed of a sub 4 marathon, but it wound a sub 330. Bob, Bob. Okay. Is that enough? You're like, I want to keep going, Megan. There's so many like incredible. Oh my gosh. You put all of these on here. Yeah. I love your brain that you're like, I'm going to read 12 of these. Just wanted to give you a negative very deserved. Thank you. Used a couple of your plans over the last year and was able to PR my 50K by an hour today. Yeah. It is hour. Race season is going hard, but also it's just exciting. Like if these training plans are helping people like run more and feel better while doing it, that's the dream, you know. And so give it a try. As always, if you can't afford it and you just want to give it, check it out. Um, let us know and we'll get you in. And also if you go to patreon.com/swap, there is tons of free content there too. So you can get a feel whether it's for you, including a David solo episode this week. Oh, yeah. I had a busy Friday. I was doing a bunch of errands and catching up on work. And so you did it solo this week, which I get sad because I love those moments together. But how is it? I think I did okay. Was it spicy? Sometimes like without me, it gets real spicy. It wasn't humor spicy. It was intellectually spicy. Whoa. I went down strange paths. Like what kind of pass? Like, you know, evolutionary anthropological paths. On a bunch of different topics. It was the theme of the brain. Was it accurate? Was it accurate? Probably not. Did you give disclaimers? Of course. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm a big walking disclaimer. When it starts talking, you don't have you around. Sometimes we actually deleted a whole section of the path this week on dad facts. And it made me, it was something that we definitely should have deleted. But there was that one three minute portion in there. And I was like, I just love that conversation. Yeah. So we did a question last week on AI coaching. It was 10 minute answer. I think it was really interesting. It was fun. But we were worried, you know, if someone misses the nuance of that conversation, you got spicy. It was your fault. When I got scared. Actually, it's never your fault. We just wanted people to feel loves enough lifted. And you know, I don't want to ever rate into issues not being like making people feel otherwise. You were getting spicy. And I feel like I was pouring a little water on it. And then you get spicy. And then I pour more water on it. And I was actually kind of a fun vibe. But in the context of that, we had so many dad facts that got taken out. Yeah. They were great. And I don't know. I forget the dad fact. I was like, is this real? Yeah. And it was. It was. Did you go back and look at it? No, but the whole plate of the dad facts. You got a belief. You got a belief. Well, sometimes I believe so hard that I find myself in conversation. I'm like, did you know this? And I'm like, balls. That might be a dad fact. Am I right? Not panic. Honestly, Megan, that's what you get for marrying me. That's on you. I was giving you dad facts on our very first date. You really were. 22. But the thing is, I was young. And I was like, these are true. Okay. Quick study here. Should we do this or should we go on to the caffeine study? Okay. Yeah. This is kind of. This is DJ Megan. I don't know. We got. I mean, I just want to get to everything. Yeah. Let's get this one. Let's get this one. This is on one workout versus two workouts. So it's relevant for double workouts. That may be a sexy part of the title. Oh, sure. Like we need those clicks. You don't get clicks unless you have a sexy part of the title. Okay. Let's go for sexy title. Let's make the sexy title sexy content. Sexy title sexy content. Okay. We can do this one really fast. This is an older study. So I just wanted to bring it to the pod. It's called comparison of the cute physiological responses between one long and two short sessions of moderate intensity training and endurance athletes took 14 male endurance athletes with a VO2 average of 69. So good athletes. And it did a counterbalance crossover design with two different conditions. And this is looking at the double workout method. Like the types of things you might see norweegins do. The first condition was six by 10 minutes, kind of like some of the bigger uphill treadmill thresholds we have athletes do all in a single session. The second condition was two workouts of three by 10 minutes separated by 6.5 hours. And as I was going through the methodology, I was like, were these athletes feeling because to me, like high-carb feeling has kind of changed this answer a little bit for me and my brain, especially as it relates to like more aerobic running of singles versus doubles. And they were doing 70 grams, so carbs an hour, which is great. So like, and then having standardized carb doses after exercise. And then the 10 minute efforts were done uphill on the treadmill, which I think is relevant too, because you're like offloading the body a little bit from biomechanical stress. Did you get to the grade on that? I think it was 10 and a half percent. Oh wow. So it was actually upset. Well, am I quoting you on that? I mean, which do we look? This is going to be a terrible edit to have to do if you do. I mean, I don't mind being wrong. Let's see. This is, I mean, I read this yesterday that's totally off the top. I don't know if you thought we were going to talk about it. I mean, I knew it was uphill. I just can't remember the exact 10 and a half point five percent. 10 and a half percent. You were so wrong. 10 and a half point five percent. Amazing. I think that's a huge sign of your incline. It took off top of your head. And I mean, I think that actually changes this overall. Like, you know, if you're doing it 10 and a half percent, how much do you need to even do a double workout? I mean, it's 10 and a half point five. Okay. I think part of the rationale for double workouts is that it helps you accumulate more volume on the flats. I don't know. So the findings here were that the single workout had more drift in physiological parameters. You can imagine that if you've ever done this. So as you get to 60 minutes of effort, your heart rate goes way up. You get higher lactate readings here. It was five beats per minute of heart rate, higher lactate by about point five normals. They also had a higher RPE. So perceived exertion. And then they had next higher levels of next day fatigue. So the two workouts led to, you know, the same accumulation of total work less of a physiological response initially. And then theoretically, they could train more on subsequent days. So for the Norwegians, they're doing two or three days like this a week. And you could see why they would. But for an athlete, I actually found something slightly different here. I'm like, well, if you're only doing one or two workouts total a week, you might actually want the bigger stimulus rather than splitting it in two. So that's the one complication I have is that I think double workouts, unless the goal is to go very, very hard. If the double workout goal like here is to just accumulate more work over the course of the entire week, it might not necessarily be necessary for athletes that are somewhat stress-limited overall. It might be better for athletes that are doing like massive volumes. You know, we haven't talked about this study yet. And that was my exact conclusion. Really? Same thing. And I think like, so the drift is actually a good physiological signal rather than a bad one. Yeah, that's aerobic adaptations. It's like to me, it's like, and imagine what happens when you adapt. Yeah. And I think this is also different to you because of the uphill nature of it. I think this does it change the nature of it. So like if you were thinking about running three by ten minutes fast at like LT2 for an athlete like you, with that, change biomechanically how you think about this because separating out this stimuli is different. Like 10.5.5% incline is different from a injury risk perspective. Does that change it for you? Yeah, I think it would. I think it's six by 10 minutes on flat ground at that. It's excessive. Yeah. You know, like under five minute pace would beat me up so bad that I wouldn't be able to adapt. I think two by three by 10 would be way better. So I don't know if on an uphill you need to split these into two, but on flat maybe you do. And maybe a way for athletes that one experiment with this to think about it is is to do one workout on flat. So you can get some of the biomechanical benefits of going faster and then do your second workout either on the uphill treadmill or on the bike or elliptical or something like that. That's what Hans Troyer for example does a lot and he is kind of the dream example of what swap training might look like when you have an athlete that can just do unlimited amounts of work and does everything right and has the brain of a total monster. And what he'll do is a morning workout that's often a little bit more speed oriented followed by a PM workout that's like five by four minutes on the uphill treadmill. You know what, lame. That's my exact answer to. And you know why it's lame? It's because I recently, this is like an evolution in my growth. I used to not like it when we disagreed. I was like, I don't know, I don't like when we have these like back and forth. And now I kind of love it. And the lame thing is I totally agree. And that was going to be my answer to well, Megan, this is just you coming around to the dad facts. Why is that happening? Okay, my second point is Hans is awesome. Hans is awesome. We've been training with him on Sunday and like props to his YouTube. So he released a YouTube with you guys running on Magnolia Road. And Leo and I watched it and wore mesmerized together. Leo's not usually like into he's more into like, you know, Paw Patrol and other things. Cars. Cars. Cars has been a big one. Oh my god. Cars on the road. Yeah. Actually really good. He can wash things over and over and over again. And then I tried to show him Shrek and he's like, I'm scared. Yeah. Shrek is a little scary. The first four minutes. He's like, uh, uh, but he loved it. I love Hans too. And so a vote for Hans' YouTube videos because they're great. Yeah, everybody goes subscribe to Hans' YouTube channel. It's just really fun. Like he is exactly who he is on that channel in such a beautiful way. And getting to see that in literally one of the best few athletes in ultra running is just really cool. I don't know if we've ever had that type of access to an athlete who truly has no secrets. Like he'll say anything. He'll answer any question. Um, what a what a great guy. Well, I feel like you guys have similar vibes, which is rare. Like I haven't met a lot of humans, especially male athletes that have similar vibes to you. And so seeing the both like both of you get to run together and have those vibes together, I'm just like, I love this. Not sure if you're insulting me or complimenting, huh? No. Okay. Yeah. You ruined it. That's your 10.5% moment. It's hard to talk. Should I delete that? No, no, no, no, I meant you're complimenting me. Yeah. Let's move on. Do you want to do the caffeine study? I do. I like it. Okay. Oh my god. I couldn't so many messages from Pichar. Yeah. You were rolling. Yeah. Okay. Here is a caffeine study. The genotype CYP-1A2. I call it CIP-1A2. My brain is weird. Yeah. That's probably good. And the aerogenic aid of caffeine intake on musculoskeletal strength and endurance performance in trained individuals. And I like the study. I like some genetic studies. And the reason I like this is you'll often hear caffeine recommendations are largely genetic based on metabolic processes with caffeine that you can isolate. And I'm always very cautious about caffeine recommendations because of that. And I think this study takes some pressure away and says caffeine basically helps everybody. It's just a matter of how much. And so you can probably tell what type of metabolizer you are from easily a genetic test. But even if you don't have that, how much caffeine you have in a day, if you have a pot of coffee, you're probably a pretty rapid metabolizer. And once you know that, you can figure out how to dose caffeine during races. And I find the genetics of this fascinating too. So this is where I was like, I like this science. So the CIP-1A2 gene encodes the enzyme for a cytochrome P450 that's responsible for metabolizing caffeine. And so you can have different alleles for that enzyme. So you can have AA, which are fast metabolizers AC, which are intermediate metabolizers and CC, which are slow metabolizers. And like 10% of the population is that CC genotype. And so there are slow metabolizers. And they theoretically would not respond as well to high doses of caffeine, right? Because then it would just be in their system too long. It builds up and causes like more caffeine-related side effects. Interesting. And then the fast metabolizers, they're probably the pot of coffee people. What do you think you are? I think I've gotten intermediate. I don't remember. I somewhere I have my 23andMe on this. I think 23andMe has it. I also briefly for like a year worked at a sports genetics company. And we actually measured this. So I'm AC. I think you're AC too. I imagine like most things, most people are intermediate. Like muscle fiber typology works that way too, right? No, I think it's like 10% and then it's like 45, 45 split for AC and AA. Okay, go fuck yourself. Here's the problem. That's a mom fact. I think it's right. We can do some double checking on that. No, no, it's just that. It's right. No, I can't be a mom. I think it's right here. Wait, did they say it? I don't know. We're okay. We're gonna pretend. We're gonna pretend. We're worth it for the rise in hate. We'll put a edit in the like description of the podcast. It's wrong. Are we gonna put an edit about Noah Conn? Oh no. I said Noah Conn and man, that's wrong. It's Conn or whatever. It's Conn. But he, there's a name in there. Yeah. I did learn last week that a lot of people are really, really into Noah. Oh, Noah's. I mean, I get it. I mean, I'm like really into Noah, but not quite really, really, really. No, no, no, not even close. And I love it. But like, do you want me to go harder? Go hard. I mean, maybe he has a Netflix documentary out now. Oh, we should watch it. So we can watch it tonight. Yeah. Just came out today. And we can settle. I'm pretty sure it's Noah Conn and I was saying it wrong for like the first five minutes of the podcast. The amount that it bothers you when you get things like fundamentally wrong. Oh, it made like it sits in my brain for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. That extra A and Conn is gonna con is gonna all just yeah, just let it go like Queen Elsa because they're gonna derail our podcasts. Yeah. Well, the thing is I've learned to let it go in time and I feel like it's made us better. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people are not listening to the podcast for a perfectly precise discussion of science. They're listening to the podcast for Taints Megan. I mean, that's pretty precise. He's spent a lot of time. You're the 99th percentile of looking up there at the distance. I'm a rapid metabolizer of Taints. Okay. The fun part of this study for me is that that was the lame part. 94% our 94 resistance trained participants, 47 male and 47 female. But then here they did a randomized placebo controlled triple blind crossover design. Hot damn. I've never heard of that well of a executed study. They were going hard. They were going so hard. And then they used Strength and Muscle and Dern's test using bench press and back squats. And the big finding was that there were just minor differences across the different genotypes. So even the slow metabolizers seemed to respond positively, though not as positively. And, you know, that's pretty exciting, I think, because it means that need fewer disclaimers on caffeine intake. Obviously, the fast metabolizers can do the really high levels. But this in the slow metabolizers probably wouldn't want to do that. They'd probably have negative effects. But overall, this is just a vote for caffeine as an organic aid. Yeah. I think for a lot of studies, I've kind of had this vibe that for slow metabolizers, caffeine has an argalitic effect, which means that it's like a negative effect. But here it is. It's arachgenic. Yeah. It's a gripping performance. It makes even just slightly. And I feel like it's helpful. If you don't have those genetics done, to have confidence that caffeine might still work and just going by feel is helpful. Yeah. And caffeine for performance. God, it's one of those things that is just so helpful. I had a big discussion of this on the David Only bonus pod, actually, where listener wrote in with a great question on clean sport and essentially saying, where is the line? Where are the lines drawn with caffeine intake? No, no, with other things. Keytones by car. All the things we talk about. And I drew two points that I wanted to bring out. The first is that we have a rules-based system. So, what a guy in the lines, things like that. And that once that system evaluates a substance and determines, well, obviously, if it's illegal, fuck that forever, like you can't ever even think about it. But if it's not illegal, like keytones, they've evaluated that, then it's fine. Whatever people want to do. But on the second point that I need was that there's a complication there, which is if it has not yet been evaluated by the system for whatever reason. Because usually those are substances that have not been talked about publicly very much. Then it is an ethical question that is much more important. Like these are the gray area type things. And for me, that means no. What would you put in the gray area in terms of like evolving supplements or evolving things you've heard about people doing? Well, the example that I can talk about was a few years ago, the BPC 157, one of those peptides that is all the rage and influencer circles now, was being taken by some athletes before it had been evaluated by WADA because it wasn't illegal yet. And then it was valued by WADA and made illegal. And they can go back and do retrospective drug tests on it, too. Well, can they? I don't think they can rule it. I don't know how it works. Yeah. The big thing is you shouldn't be taking anything that you think impacts performance like that, but hasn't is not public. Well, I think I think they can, right? Because wasn't like drugs like EPO weren't necessarily WADA banned back in like one of the were banned. Were they banned like all the way back then? They just contested. They can test for it. So I don't know exactly how it works. I've been paid attention to it. But that was my ethical framework for it. And then in the context of that question to like push back against the listener, it was caffeine is the ultimate performance enhancer, but WADA has evaluated it and taken off all restrictions on caffeine. And they used to have restrictions. You'd have some of them. Yeah, it's called massive doses. And I think NCAA still might have a couple. But it just points out that like, oh, well, you know, the ethical gray area kind of gets lifted by the rules-based system, which is so wonderful, these you not to think about it. Long story short, caffeine is the thing. Like everything we talk about on the background of like caffeine improves performance more for most people is probably a good thing to remember. - It's also kind of wild when you think about it with life performance too. Of like, you know, we think about caffeine very precisely with this podcast. Like on the way over to recording the podcast, we're drinking matcha. Yeah, just how much it kind of dials up and turns up the brain and motivation levels. Like for me, if I'm ever feeling low motivated, like I'll take some precision 100 calf and feel real good. - Yeah, and so just a look at the results here, the mean velocity that they were measuring for these lifts increased by four to 12% in the fastened stabilizers, three to nine percent in the intermediate people. And then the slow metabolizers only showed minor changes, less than or equal to four percent. So the slow metabolizers do have a different concern. And if you've ever noticed weird things with caffeine, get the genetic test because that will guide you a little bit and then you might want to stick more to Megan's 25 milligram caffeine gels rather than David's 100 milligram all the time. - Go to Mars approach. - Yeah, and maybe I may even have fastened how much I'm not sure. - Actually, it's a good question. I don't know if 23Me directly measures this genotype. I think they actually do now host, they put together as like looking at multiple genes together. And the company that I was working for actually directly measured this genotype. And so I have a question as to like how it's done. And if you can actually just find that information on 23Me. - Yeah, this is the one place in the genome where specifically looking at this one thing can be helpful. Like often the genome works across the entire genetic code which is so wild. I mean, genetics is the coolest area. This is why I was going down anthropological rabbit hole again. - Oh, it's so cool. And you can create polygenic risk scores based off of like 200,000 different spots within the genome. They actually do this for bone density. And they can have no idea why they work. - Yeah, and actually oftentimes they don't. They're like, and they're like searching for things. You like mine, there's different databases online where you can be like, what is this gene possibly do? - Yeah, and meanwhile though here, this encodes for the enzyme that Megan mentioned that is responsible for metabolizing 95% of ingested caffeine. So this is one place where I'd like, boom, you're nailing it. And so yeah, here's with caffeine during racing, maybe like I'm always hesitant to give exact advice. But if you're a fast or intermediate metabolizer, I kind of like doing 100 milligrams every two hours. - Yeah. - I mean, it's a lot. - That's aggressive. - Especially if you're going long. Once you're going over 10 hours, you gotta be careful about that. But I've seen athletes kind of have a lot of success from that rather than waiting to the end of races. But be very, very, very careful. And make sure that you understand your genetics because the slow metabolizer did that, it would probably ruin their race. - Did you leave your genetics on 23 me after they went bankrupt? - Yeah. - Yeah. - I did too. - You're gonna have genetics? - I'm in the same way. - I got it. - We're talking about ranch pizza. - Yeah. - It's four-play in the podcast. So my genes are good. (laughing) It's actually kind of nice when you just put everything online and you're like, "Yeah, it's okay." - No, I agree. I'm just like, well, why be private about almost anything? - It's true, yeah. - You know, I'm not gonna mention what I was gonna mention. - We're gonna talk about me getting scanned. - No, man. (laughing) - No, actually it wasn't. - It wasn't what I was-- - No, were you gonna mention? - The thing I was worried about this morning. - Oh yeah. - But I'm not gonna talk about my thing. - You were talking about your thing? - No. - No. - What users just did for-- - We can talk about it. I mean, it's just-- - Maybe it made another effect. - I feel like we don't need five minutes to spend on me getting scanned. It was very funny. - It was very funny. - I did not actually get, I was very close to getting scanned. - They can almost-- - I did not. (laughing) - They can almost mean me to get hit by another car while I did. - I did not, I was good. (laughing) - It's so trusting and it's so beautiful and I love it about you. - Okay, this was a complex scan. - But AI makes it so that they can do things now that are longer. - It's actually like-- - It's scary. - Everybody's terrible. - Yeah, it is very scary. - Don't respond to anything ever. - I was responding in the doctor's office at Ollie's wall child check. So I was like clearly just a little bit like being quick about it. And then I was like, - Wow. - I'm not to get scanned. - No shame about getting scanned. I mean, or the risk of that, it happens to so many people and no one talks about it. So I'm very happy that you did. It's like, there's probably thousands of listeners who have had situations that they're just like, oh, fuck am I an idiot? - It also kind of like made me feel deeply uncomfortable just in the sense of like them having access to my personal information. I can't remember, I don't think I gave them really any personal information. But I was just like, oh my goodness. - Maybe that's because we've put everything up. (laughing) - I'm already having it all. - Oh no, full circle. (laughing) - Like we know about your-- - You get some rest dressing. - We have a reference for from Jacques. (laughing) - Jacques says it was good. (laughing) - Super shoestuddy. - No, let's move on. Let's see questions. - No, no, let's do super shoestude. - No, we love science. - Okay, I mean-- - It's fun. - I guess you can't love science more than I can. So we got it, we got it. - Oh yeah, yeah. - I got the degrees man. - Hey, hey. - I have a master's degree. - In earth science. (laughing) - Tell me how you really feel. (laughing) - That's amazing. You never say the standard relationship. And I love it so much. - No, I actually worked hard for that. - No, no, no, no, no. - You also have a JDD. You got a lot of degrees. - As you're saying, like the different enzymes and stuff, they're named, I'm like, "Shit, that's an education, I know." - Education? - Yeah. - I mean, who knows if I'm saying the enzymes, like I said, no, no. - Oh no. - Actually, a thousand percent agree. I mean, or science is amazing, but-- - You also did say this weekend, you're like, "My toxic tree is that I could go to the moon." I think I could go to the moon in three months. (laughing) - You changed that in the hot jazz. - So I like to shoot me. - You can do this. - You can do this. - I can do this. - You said the scanning thing, so. You asked the Artemis land, and it was beautiful, and you were very emotional. - Oh my gosh, the splash down was so cool. - Yeah, that's what I've always said. - Actually, but it wasn't a large body of water. I was pretty cool about going to the moon until they landed in water. - Yeah, maybe I should talk twice about this. And so I said to Megan, as a joke, that my toxic tree, because I think I could be an astronaut, that gets trained to go to the moon in two months. - Actually, you said three to be fair. - You said three. - Well, I think I could do it until. (laughing) Meanwhile, I hate roller coasters. I can't even do those. - You can't do vomiting before, 'cause they even like-- - No, I am the whole thing would go down, because I'm incompetent with cars and stuff. I would add nothing and only lead to disaster. - So, yeah, obviously I get it, but at the same time, I still think I could do it. - Also, you'd fuck up that space toilet for sure. (laughing) - He still love me. (laughing) - Okay, we're gonna have to-- That's the best joke. That's the best joke in the three to five, guys. - I thought I'd have five burns. You need to burn me. - Burn me about getting scammed. - No, no, it's beautiful. - It's beautiful. - It's amazing. - I love it. - I did not-- - I was close to getting scammed. I did not get scammed. - You're just so lucky that the bank branch went to close. - No, I wouldn't have done it. I was not gonna wire-- - I literally walked in there. - Many thousands of dollars to clearance were as Melinda. (laughing) - Okay, on your two-touches, just study. Performance benefits without added injury risk question mark, effects of advanced footwear technology on running economy and biomechanical risk in recreational runners. This had three shoes tested for 30 runners. The vapor fly-fly fleet, three, so a super shoe. The Invincible Three, which is Nike's max cushioned super trainer with people cushioning. - That actually rarely see runners running. I had that reflection. Do you have anyone training in the Invincible? - People love it. - Oh, really? - I don't know how much people run in it across the board, but it sells at times. - I mean, it sells really well, and it looks very comfortable, but I feel like I never-- Have you seen anyone run in it and boulder? - I mean, I'm not staring at people's feet when shoes are on. (laughing) Then the third was the Brooks Livia Five. - Love it, tape, yeah. - But normal shoe. That makes more sense. And so it found that the vapor fly reduces oxygen costs AKA improves running economy. We knew that would happen. But the levitate increased average and instantaneous load rate. And the Invincible had lower average load rate than the vapor fly. The levitate had worse than both. Still, the conclusion is advanced footwear technology shoes combining piba foam, so the softer foam that Nike uses, with a carbon fiber plate, improved running economy without increases in the biomechanical variables examined, which had been discussed in the literature and relation to running related energy truths. These shoes can enhance metabolic performance while piba only shoes, like the Invincible, may better suit session focused on cushioning and impact management. Big conclusion here, every time you wear super shoes or these cushion shoes, people are like, "Oh, you're gonna get injured." The more we see on this, the more we see actually that shoe that doesn't protect you, might be higher load rate. And the problem would be, well, what happens if you zoom this out over a long period of time, that you adapt to the highly cushioned shoe, you develop poor running form, you actually develop a running form that causes worse loading, causes more injury. I think that is a problem that you really need to think about. But at baseline, if you just put a runner in a given moment in a super shoe or a highly cushioned super trainer versus like a normal shoe, there's probably better load rate in those other shoes, which might lead to better injury outcomes. - Well, I love that you love science so much. You're like, "I'm just gonna do it all." You do that side-study. You should do the whole study. I love that. - You crushed it. - I'm sorry. - High five. - It's shoes, man. - It shoes, you're like, "Meghan's." - It's not science. - It's faculty. - Yeah. - I love my shoes. I love me some shoes. No, I agree. I think the one relevant thing here is that they held it at fixed speed too. And I think that's interesting because with super shoes, you often run substantially faster, thus increasing load. - Ah. - And how does that translate over time? Or you just have so much joy from putting on a pair of vapor flies or alpha flies whatever the super shoe is that you run faster and run a little harder because it feels good. - So the injury risk just comes from being faster? - Perhaps. - Perhaps. Yeah, maybe every, maybe caffeine costs this high injury risk because it makes people go faster. - Like, I must go to Mars. - Or whatever, by car. I mean, I could totally see that. Like, one of the reasons we recommend all these interventions is because if you train it, it's not that you just have it on the day, it's that you adapt to the new levels, you adapt to the new levels. But as you adapt to the new levels, there is more injury risk. - You get faster by definition. - Yeah, you're putting out. more stress on your body. - Yeah, athletes that are trying to push the limits and see what they're capable of. We'll probably get injured a lot more than people that are just like, oh, I'm just going out to do the thing, which is awesome. We totally support that. But we also are like, oh, well, what if running feels way better and you go farther? And it's just more transcendent, you know, and then racist too. So yeah, I'm sorry for doing all the science. - Oh, I loved it. I was just sitting here listening like, this is great. - I got so into it. - Yeah, that's the thing is I like me get into things. Now I uplift it. It was great. - Okay, you're just feeling bad and all the time you roasted me. - Yeah, I can't roast you again. (laughing) - Please roast me. - Yeah. - I need it. (laughing) - We need to change our cadence tank count to a roast count here. - I'm a humor bottom. - Yeah. - You really are. - I don't know if that's okay, joke to me. But I think it is. - We love you all. All right, let's get on to question the answer. Anything to talk about before we get there? - Let's just get on to question the answer. - Let's get there. - First one on sleep. Hi, David and Megan. Thanks for all you do. I would love another discussion about sleep sometime on the podcast, especially for those of us who sleep sucks due to long work hours, kids, pets, anxiety, et cetera. At what point do you guys decide to skip workouts or dial training back due to lack of sleep? - Yeah, sleep is tricky. Actually, I feel like sleep is not my primary skill set. And never has been. I'm trying, I'm really trying, but it's hard. - Yeah, you just have midnight-exing anxiety. - Every so often, I feel like it's more menstrual cycle related. Like, you know, that luteal phase is really tough to aam. - Oh, Megan, if I said that, if I said that, - I would roast you. - You would be so pissed. - No, you can't roast anyone about the menstrual cycle. - Okay. - It's not fair. - But if a guy comes in and says, "Where are you at in your menstrual cycle? What would you say to that?" (laughing) - Yeah. - Or yourself. - No, I mean, I totally see that. But, you know, it's especially when we first met, like, sleep was not your thing. - And I've gotten better. I've worked on it over time. But now we have a bunch of sleep limitations of kids, Addy dog, sometimes we exercise up in the middle of the night, like, work so randomly. And every so often, though, when I'm the limitation and like, God damn it, I was like such a good opportunity for-- - Oh, I see what you mean. - Tonight's continuous sleep. - Yeah, we have the anxiety. - Yeah, I mean, sleep is just one of those places where taking the pressure off is the first step. Like, so many influencers and thinkers in the space will say, sleep matters more than anything. Whatever, it's like, that is the worst way to approach any voluntary psychological process, right? Like, if you come to some guy and you're like, dude, have an erection now. - Yeah. - It's not gonna be great for him, probably. Like, most likely. - No, the one battle after another movie has a scene like that in the first 15 minutes that's like, honestly, I turned it off, which I know is like a really, you know, not a great movie watcher. This movie is not for me. - Did it give you anxiety? - No, no, it was just like, I was watching it on the treadmill. I was like, these are not treadmill highs. And I hear it gets amazing, obviously, it won all these awards. But like, yeah, you'll know what I mean. If anybody saw it, based on what I just said. So similarly, with sleep, try to be, all right. I'm gonna give myself this much time relaxing. And if that comes with interruptions, it comes with interruptions. Like if you're going into kids or whatever. But in that time, if your eyes are closed or you're lying in bed and you're doing just being relaxed, that counts. You know, you don't have to read every article that there is on sleep hygiene or anything like that. Basically, make it simple that if you're there and if you're relaxing, that is sleep. Don't worry about your watch telling you about your awake time or how much deep sleep or REM you had or anything like that. Just be like, and now we go be just like lying in a cocoon. And then we emerge from the cocoon and it's all good, warm there. - And I think make it simple, make it consistent to you. Like I think consistent time of going to sleep at night, having a consistent bedtime routine, all very helpful when you think about like how that translates longterm and also in terms of like how you feel too. And so like we are very consistent. Like I feel like most nights we're sleeping by 8.30. Like we have a whole routine with the kids. We start our bedtime routine at 7.15 with them. They're usually asleep by like 7.30, 7.45. We go to bed at 8.30 and that consistency is just so nice. - But I need to watch space videos. - You too and I just fall asleep on your shoulder while you watch space videos. - I love these, these Megan falsely. I can't watch anything that activates Megan. So no shows are any. So on YouTube, I just go through the space time videos. Hank Green has a lot of good space videos. Last night I was reading about or watching a video that was what exists outside the universe. - And I think at some point I can't, I don't know if I was like in REM as I was visualizing this. I feel like this was made by AI. - I just think this is all bullshit. This is this is clearly made by AI. They were doing the same verbal things over and over again. And it was very interesting and I was learning a lot about some scientific theories I didn't know. But it was AI gives me the icky icky icky. Which you can imagine why we deleted what we talked about last week. And for sleep, if you have trouble like staying asleep or falling asleep, I think there are different things you can take. So if you have trouble with sleep just at background, try Dream Shot from the feed. Some athletes say they take it and it changes their life forever. And other athletes are like no difference at all. So give it three day try if you've already had issues with sleep. - And it's nice because it's a non-melatonin-based sleep aid and melatonin is often given in like super physiologic doses. Like, you know, we're talking like really high doses compared to what the body makes naturally. And to me sometimes I like struggle with that. And so Dream Shot kind of is a better alternative from that perspective. - Melatonin might have different responses for men and women. There's actually some studies now that are finding men might have testosterone increases for melatonin. But I've seen reverse for women. - I'm like, show me that study. - Yeah, I mean, it was literally just one study. - It sounds like a study done by man. - Yeah, they're like, I want to take my sleep elite every night. - And that's the other option is like if you were looking for the next step sleep elite has, I believe, three milligrams of melatonin from momentous. And I've taken that before Redville in 2024. I've taken Dream Shot before or two. So there's different options for you to try to just give you a little nudge, right? And don't get down on about having to do that stuff. It's better than taking like, you know, an ambient or something, which, you know, some people need for sure. But ambient has mixed science long term as it relates to longevity that you need to be very careful about. And probably of, you know, these other things most likely don't, especially Dream Shot. Dream Shot, the ingredients are simple, good, and some people, like hits their brain in the right way. And for some people it doesn't. And it probably is much like the caffeine thing that if we can isolate the genetics of who responds to Dream Shot, it'd be fantastic. But it's probably 50/50 of like the bad sleepers who are immediately cured for the most part. And the bad sleepers who don't notice that much for change. - Agreed. And then I think as far as workouts go, I actually don't tend to adjust workouts a ton unless an athlete is really feeling fatigued and they're feeling it in normal life. Just because I feel like, you know, if I were adjusting workouts often because of sleep, I'd be laying there at 2 a.m. debating. I'd be like, am I gonna work out tomorrow? Am I not? Am I gonna easy run? And sometimes I feel like it's just easier to leave it as is. And, you know, to dial some of these things in around sleep, that being said, like if an athlete has a newborn or there's like substantial nighttime awakenings or shift work for athletes that are working like in a hospital or doing nighttime shifts, that's when I tend to change it. But I think doing it more like willy nilly to me just causes anxiety. - Yeah, the problem is there's no way to blind participants in a study like this. But what I would love is a study that was able to tell athletes or not have athletes have any concept of what they did with sleep the night before and then perform. I bet we would see almost no performance differences. - Agreed. - Even with really, really bad sleep nights, because everything happens over a much longer time. Skills the body adapts and, you know, yes, sleep is amazing. And I try to encourage athletes to be in bed for eight hours, even if that's interrupted, even if you're only sleeping for one of those hours. But if you are able to do that, if you're actually able to relax in that time, I bet we would see pretty similar performances. And the problem is that people give them their head about it. So long story short, we're just looking, just, you're good, you're awesome. Don't sweat it, you're gonna be fine. And if you're able to embody that, you'll actually probably sleep better too. And just lying there, it's a good asleep. - It's nice. I come in lay on your shoulder when I can't sleep, and I just like hang out, and it's great. - And I never put on deodorants. You can essentially experience it. - It's not that bad. - It's not that bad. - I mean, sometimes there's some interesting whiffs, but it's something. - Are those pheromones or are there some males? - No, there's just some males. But it's all you, and I love it. Also, you still having sleep apnea. Have you gone so? - Yeah. - Sure? - I mean, I spent a lot of time awake in the whole night. - Wow, really? - Yeah. - Huh. - So, we talked about this in the podcast before. I have been known, according to Megan, to do some breathing issues in the middle of the night. - And you tied it, you're like, this is my advantage. I'm building hemoglobin. - Oh yeah. - So, the harsh study, sleep apnea, you're not good for you mostly. But it is a much like altitude. It basically simulates an altitude tent, where you're oxygen depriving yourself. So, you have much higher hemoglobin levels. So, sometimes you can diagnose people with sleep apnea from very high level, like hematic levels usually. So, the percentage of red blood cells. So, yeah, I used to think that's why I did well at altitude. - Well, here's my theory, is I often see sleep apnea associated with overtraining. Like I did, like when athletes are over reaching a little bit, it tends to hit higher periods of sleep apnea, just a random hypothesis. And I wonder if all the high carb feeling you've done and the really smart training of like mixing in biking and, you know, running and having this mix of training has put your body in a great recovery context. - Or maybe I just need to train harder. - Yeah, or maybe just a bit better pillow. - Yeah. - You're sleep positions better. - Yeah, it's very curious. Maybe it's iron levels, you know. Like supplementing more iron now than I used to, which is complicated. I have a very weird genetic context with all that. And I feel better with energy. - Yeah, but for whatever reason it's nice, it's more romantic when you're not over there choking away. (laughing) - I'm just doing auto-erotic excitation. - By yourself. - Without the erotic part. - I mean. - The wind's on the dream, I guess. - It really depends. (laughing) - Okay, we're picking that back up with Megan's laugh. - I had to cough. - Yeah. - I thought, yeah. - It's hard to podcast with a cough. - Yeah, and some things happened. - And we're talking about this. - To. - Yeah. And they're just sitting out. - I'll clean them. - You'll clean them? - Yeah. - I don't know, Megan. - It's my mom's house. - Okay. - I take her house very seriously. - I wish I'd just do one or two more. Video games, we have to do this one. Hi, David and Megan. I've been listening for about six months now and recently signed up for Patreon. I just want to see how much your podcast resonates. I have two kids and really appreciate the way you talk about your athletic journeys and your own personal perspectives as parents. Your feedback and advocacy on the feeling has also materially improved my training. David, I've heard you mention a few times that you like to play video games, but struggle to find the time, or I'd like to, but I haven't played video games since I was a kid. I figured I'd share a set up that has worked surprisingly well for me. I'm training for my first half Iron Man, so my volume has been ramping up through the Boston winter. To make longer indoor rides more engaging, I set up my bike with Aero bars. It put my computer on a desk in front of me. When I'm down on the Aero bars, I can comfortably hold an Xbox controller. - That is epic. - Which I connect to my computer. The net result is that I've been able to play Skyrim while riding. I feel like that means rim jobs in the sky. - Yeah, I was in a skyrim. - You've never heard of Skyrim. - I actually know, even though I play video games, I read about video games. I do a lot of this, I don't know why I do this sort of thing. - Here's dad facts about video games. - Well, then just Skyrim, it's your typical big strategy game where you go, fight things. They're all similar. I actually finished it once, and I'm close to finishing a second playthrough. I hadn't played video games in about 10 years, basically since my first kid was one. So this has been a fun way to bring that back into the mix. It's probably not a totally novel idea, but it's been a great way to make longer sessions, something I look forward to, thanks again for the podcast. - Aero bars and video games. That's a great idea. - I wanna look up what Skyrim is. - Yeah, okay, you could also never do this, David, because you ride so upright on our Zwift. - It's action role-playing game. So like I said, boom. - Boom. - Rim jobs in the sky. - Yeah, I mean, it kinda looks like it there. On that photo. - I mean, there's some stuff going on. Yeah, I'm too into it. - No, you're too upright on the bike. - Yeah, whenever I ride after you on Zwift, I have to drop the handlebars. - Yeah, I mean. - A solid six inches. - Outdoors, I'm really good at getting Aero in going fast. That's how I ride outdoors. - Actually, your position outdoors is great. - I wanna put out power and be comfortable. So it's great on the Zwift ride. You can just raise the handlebars so high that I just can have it straight up there. - You're basically riding a bike with a flower basket indoors. - Yeah. - Yeah, and just so into it. Okay, if you could play one video game, it's back in the day 'cause we have no video game knowledge now. - Oh, oh, from my child. - From your child, huh? - Yeah, I mean, it's gotta be Golden Eye on M64. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I can't believe I said that. I'm so sorry and I apologize to everyone 'cause it's kinda perfect arc. The semi-sequel to Golden Eye, so Golden Eye was James Bond, the same video game company. I think it's called Rare, maybe. Made perfect arc subsequently. And that game was so good and so I have in time. I think it was like 1998, I'm guessing. And there was a weapon where you could shoot through walls. - Whoa. - And I have so many good memories of like, obviously it wasn't that efficient to do this because you were doing it from a distance, but when you did it and it was like on your brother or something. - Oh my God, you told him that for a week time. - Yeah, yeah. - So that game was great. That would probably be number one. - Yeah, I was never allowed video games with weapons. And as I'm sitting here, I'm like, I kinda get why? - We would happen to me. - I mean, you're talking about shooting through walls at your brother. - Yeah, I can. - I feel like they've actually had studies that it doesn't correlate in that way. That's like a false fear, which makes sense. - That's actually does make sense, yeah. - Yeah, but like I'm sure social media is so much infinitely worse than videos. - Oh, for sure. - But then again, we get video games now are social media because. - Oh, you can interact with people. - And there's, yeah. - Dude, this is old man conversation. - Yeah, for like people are like, whoa, you guys. - You're giving your video game. - Crash Bandicoot. - What? - I know, I was more FIFA. - Okay, that's a better answer. Crash Bandicoot. - Crash Bandicoot was so fun. - I didn't even know what that is. - You don't even know what that is. - Okay, I'm gonna look at it right now. You're gonna see what this looks like. - Megan searching Crash Bandicoot's sexual position. - It's this little box. - Oh shit. - It's made by Naughty Dog. - Oh man, dude. - Do you ever play, you never played Crash Bandicoot? - Did you have your sexual awakening to Crash Bandicoot? - I actually did play Crash Bandicoot. - I actually did have my sexual awakening. - I did play Crash Bandicoot on the bike. - Yeah, I remember. You told me that you used to play-- - It was so fun. - Yeah. - Much than this manner. - I was a soccer and would like, I would come home and have like a huge less cake, go downstairs and play a Crash Bandicoot on the exercise bike. - That's what we're calling it now. - From school. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, but actually, I mean, I love this. I'm in Zwift as my video game right now, just like the riding in the game world. - Oh, it's so fun. - Feels to me almost like riding outside in the sense of I feel as if I explore, you can just show me a map of Watopia, which is the main world in Zwift now. - Yeah, not the roads, but just the elevation profile. And I can tell you which road it goes on, which anyone who's ever been in the world would feel that way. Though maybe that's just male overconfidence. But to me, that is fun to engage with. So I just do that and listen to the ultimate swap playlist. - Well, pace groups are gonna change it. I mean, I love riding in Zwift, but I feel like pace groups are gonna make this like so helpful for me. - Absolutely. Do we have so many questions? - We do. - Maybe next week we just do a question episode. No, we haven't bought in in studies. - Yeah, I also will have a long time, so we can just look at scientific studies. - Oh my God. - Instead of texting them to each other, we can just look at them side by side. I was gonna make great with some pizza. - Okay, let's go and listen to her. Before that, what do we have to talk about? - John G. - John G. - How do you like my bra right now? - It's amazing. - This is the long bra. - There's cactus on it. - Yeah, this is actually one of my athletes, favorite artist, Abigail West, designed this one. I think it sold out, but the long bra in general is amazing. - Yeah, we got a message to kind of put it on here. Shoot. Someone said that the bra you mentioned last week. - Oh, the RD, bra, the race bra. - Has fully changed the game. - Oh, that's so cool. - They said that it was the most fundamentally life-changing bra they've ever had. - Okay, we need to bring that message to the pod next week. - Okay, RD, so the RD bra? - The RD bra. - Yeah, well, you get the idea. - Yeah, we talked about last week. It's amazing. I don't know the exact name of it, but it's new. It's on the John G. website, and it is so great. It's like a crop and for racing. You can actually fit a whole soft flask in the back of the bra, which is to me, is wild. - That's so cool. - Yeah, I could actually, that means, yeah, that actually opens up, I'm just doing the math here about how that opens up my adventure capabilities. - And their pants and shorts are just incredible. Go to their website, click on those, join the John G. Collective for 15% off at rocks. I think we're gonna get to see John G. Mike in Boston. - I was gonna bring that up. That's part of our tinnurite and I'm pumped. I love John G. Mike. - The only thing we're doing, we're playing low in supporting athletes. Like, we really wanna just be focused. - Actually, I've already scheduled a few things for us. - No. - Yeah, no with people I love. - Megan, no, we can't, no, this is coaching. I know, I know, but like, this is very, you're like, even though we're having fun, this is incredibly serious. Sorry, I literally said no to like everything. So we, like, you can do whatever you want, but. - Okay, you're like, I'll send you on a mission. - No, I mean, we should, we should, like, this is a very important moment for people. - Oh yes, no, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, - Yes, yes. - The business trip. - You can hear like, the business business. - You can hear, I actually feel about coaching coming out, which is like, this is not a time of socialized. - Nope, okay, yep. - This is a time to be serious. Okay, on to listener corner. So long one, should I do it? - Oh my goodness gracious. - Okay, this one, I think. - Are you gonna read the whole thing? - This one makes me feel good, I think. - It gives you the warm and fuzzy feelings. - Yeah, it does. Here it is. - Just like half of it give you the warm and fuzzy feelings? - I'll see what I can shorten this a go. Taking a break from the occasional random message to thank you both for building an amazing, welcoming and supportive community. This past Saturday I ran my first 50 mile race. I originally planned on running this race in many, many years ago, and then it talks about how their journey took another path. Then I just happened to listen to David's interview on the Rich Roll podcast. I know you get a ton of messages regarding the next part, and you're probably tired of hearing about it, but that's the way it goes sometimes. The Road to Western States series got both my wife and I into Swap, and we have been big fans and pod listeners ever since. We were lucky enough to go close enough to the finish line of Western States that we came out on a date night to watch David finish. - No way. - Instead we got to have a quick conversation with both of you on the side of the high school track. You two could have told us to please leave you alone or any number of things that wouldn't have been out of the ordinary given the circumstances, but instead you welcomed the conversation with a random couple and were nothing but encouraging and genuinely happy to chat. The moment gave me the push I needed to get over the fear of failing. I shoot up to the start line of the 50 mileer in my Swap Hat and had one of the best experiences on the trail, flashing potato hands at anyone who would look my way. I was hoping to just beat the cut off. I finished in the top 25%. - Whoa. - It could not imagine it going any better. Thank you both for being great humans and bringing love and support for each other in the world around you to the podcast every week without fail. The world would be a better place if there were more people like you two in it. Sorry that got longer than expected. TLDR, me, you, western states, got me into the start line in my own goal race. You two are amazing people. We love you, Hizah. - That is so beautiful. I was thinking about that a lot this week actually. It's like what happens if you give yourself the permission to fail? And like the permission to take a chance and know that failure is an option and do it anyways. And it's like a lot of cool things happen. And if you think we get a lot of messages David, like, you know, I know I roast it you a lot this podcast episode, but like-- - Megan, Megan, you're just doing this. You're worried about roast. - I am not worried about, I'm actually very excited about roasting it. - Okay. - Yeah, I'm not worried about it. But I do feel like your journey to western states, like, resonated with a lot of people in the sense of like, not fearing failure in quite the same way. And I just like, I think that might be like one of the most important messages to leave to the world. - Well, thank you. And to this listener, we remember that conversation and you talking about this. And to hear that you went and did it almost a year later is the coolest thing in the world. We are so proud of you. And this is everything. This is what life's about. This is what trainings about or whatever, who cares how fast you go in the end. It's about this type of journey. Because if you do this, what else can you do in life? And then, yeah, I mean, it's relevant with western states because I'm not gonna be doing canyons. Sorry, everybody. - Oh, my drop moment. - Well, I mean-- - There's still time. - I'm not gonna do it. - Okay, I'm in like, still holding on. I think the day where you fell was kind of gonna be like your deciding day. And what made you decide against it? - It just, I'm not resilient enough right now just to put this on myself. Like I need more physical and mental resilience to be ready to hurt like that. And, you know, I think I know what it entails now. And I, my fitness is not bad. And maybe if this race was close, I could do it. But I just know that in the context of it, I would not be my best self. What do you mean that close, like close in terms of like location? No case. Yeah. It was like, you got me to do that the whole week before. This is a little different. So not me doing that. So no Western states this year. I'm so sad. I will fail other things. I know. I know you can feel it. Whatever you want. But for whatever reason, I really wanted you to show up ready to fail at Western states. Yeah. I mean, you know, when I handed on the golden ticket, like this was the expected outcome all along. And yeah, there's mixed feelings about that. But you know what? And maybe I can be a taser for somebody icons. Ooh. That makes that actually makes me very excited. Run the part of the trail I missed. Yeah. But I mean, it's, I like, it's funny how much I care that like I've been holding onto that canyon's goal for you for a long time. And so I might need a period of grieving for that for that. And I feel like people feel similarly to you. Like I was just so excited to watch you go for it. And I like respect. I think like, you know, your health and your foot health is the most important thing. And like if you did Western states, I don't know if you could race Redville at the top level. And I know how important that is to you. Sorry. I'm giving away your goals. But. Oh, no. That's totally fine. You would just pause. I'm like, I don't give a fuck. Yeah. I mean, especially someone's listening this long in the podcast. We love you. We love you. You're family. Thank you. So you need a period of grieving, you said? Yeah. Your period did just start before the podcast. You now have about three or four days for a period of grieving. Action. Now I have like 14 because I'm on a goddamn ID. This is what women's birth control is like. Maybe it will be better. Yeah. I like the period of grieving. It's also cool to see the reflection on the rich role podcast, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think it just also that shows specifically how much self judgment is just not helped form life. And this is a place where I have grown a lot from this whole experience the last two years is remember I recorded ritual. We talked about this on the podcast. You can go back and listen September, 2024. And we talked about the experience. And I hated myself. You thought you did so poorly to the point that like the afternoon after we were like, at the Pacific Ocean with Leo is like the first time he's all the ocean. And you were like palpably sad. I was pounding about myself. Not about. I probably not pounding, but yeah. No, I was pounding. Yeah. You said palpably right. I said pounding right. I thought you thought I said pounding. And I was like, you were impouting. You're just sad. I just brought up that words my head. And, you know, for a listener like this, it resonated, you know? I think vulnerability often feels kind of shitty when you do it. And it's just kind of cool that like, I don't know, you show up over and over again and eventually you get comfortable just being vulnerable. And it's always going to feel kind of shitty. So maybe the biggest vote here is to go do whatever that thing is that scares you and just not judge yourself on the other side because, you know, if you're like me, you're just always going to think you could do better or be better or help people more. And that's not the way it is. It's such a human thing to feel that way. Yeah. Maybe a constant thing too. The constant thing. Do you think she feels that way? Hmm. I mean, constants can go pretty long. You can do a lot of things. Shock. Shock. I might need to move on from drop. I dropped him. You did drop, I did drop, yeah. Yeah. Dude, are you going to be doing constants with me? No, no, no, no. Yeah, that's a full watt per kilogram higher. Absolutely not. Oh, Megan, but we could have a threesome with constants. I can hold it for like 20 minutes maybe. That's all we need. That's all we need, but all we need. You got, you got, you got, you know, I can probably do it longer than that. You got 30 seconds in you? Yeah. That's all you need. You have, you have. Because what a, what a way to end it. It does not rock.