How Rohan Sheth Generated $2B+ in Sales with GrowRev Advertising Agency

My favorite line ever on a sales call is men lie, women lie, numbers don't. So I don't care how I feel, I don't care how you feel, go by the numbers because that's how you gonna get to the goal that you want to get to. Dan Kennedy talks about any big direct response Marker talks about it. It's like the one that can spend the most acquired client wins. If you have that mentality, you can scale. The business owner has to be brave. Very brave. Are you on the TRT or something? Uh, yes. Yeah, now. Look, not only thinking this earlier days when I was doing this, it was just a lot of caffeine and a lot of nicotine. That does it last long for both people that understand because you're going to shoot your body into the ground and I did. I don't think anybody can do what you're doing, you know. It's not saying your records in terms of ad spent per month, what is like the most you have spent for a client in like one month, four million, four million. That was that info space or info. And did you do more in other industries where it's info, we've got a client right now in the supplement space. I'll break that. I would say within the next 60 days, looking at the scale numbers, they're pacing for about six million a month, probably by the end of April. In ad spent. In ad spent. That's crazy. All right, I'm sitting here with the two billion dollar advertising agency man. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. All right, perfect. I think you have one of the biggest agencies. I mean, you have the biggest agency for sure in the info space, maybe also in other niches. Yeah, starting to be pretty heavy in the supplement in peptide space. Yeah. So let's let's get started with shitting on other agencies. Because you know, you have all the experience and you know, you take over from a lot of other agencies and you see a lot of crazy stuff. So let's get started there. Like what are you seeing nowadays where agencies that we're not going to mention any names, but where do you think like most agencies are messing up nowadays? I think a lot the biggest thing that I'm noticing across the board of agency owners is that they're coming in and especially, you know, the estimated main world has become massive because of certain people in the United States. Yeah. Thanks you, man. Which is, you know, a good thing and a bad thing across the board. There's just a lot of fly-by-night guys versus actually making all these empty promises and then blowing up, spending a bunch of money on ads, getting clients, whatever the hell they're doing, is not understanding that the world that we live in from an economic cycle and the marketing cycle is very different today than it was even when I first got started, right? It's easy to go with the client, but it's how it's a lot harder to keep that client based on the results that you promise them. And what I'm noticing is people don't have the credibility. They're not willing to put the time and effort into grow what it actually takes a growing off or call it in the information space specifically. And then behind all of that is, you know, when you don't do that, not only do you affect yourself as the agency owner, but you also affect any other person that can actually provide good value to someone else. And we're, and one of the frustrating things and I'm talking about this now is, and I've been actually talking about it for a long time, but it's like everyone's talking about leads, everyone's talking about book calls, qualified. I'm like, come from a perspective of can you drive increased profit margins for the client that's going to hire you? Because if you can drive increased profit margins for the clients that are going to hire you, you win every day of the week. Yeah, I mean, I think most people, they don't even know any of that stuff, right? They don't even ask like a prospect on a call like, hey, what, like, how much are you spending per a quiet client in service delivery? And then there's a lot of other stuff going on. So I'm actually curious about that. Like, what are you guys doing in terms of like mapping out the whole journey and the cost and all that stuff? How deep do you go in the data part of like, how do we drive more profit? Oh, we go very, very deep. One of the things that we have internally, we coin the growth navigator process is like our Gora methodology. So not only do we look at your ads, we look at your entire CRO process, your entire funnel, see what's going on. And then as well in the back end, we will QA your sales team, right? We will shop, like my internal team will shop your sales team to see, you know, are they following up? Are they not following up? What's going on there? So pretty much on the time someone becomes a lead or sees an ad to the time someone purchases whatever that high ticket product is, if we're just talking info right now, specifically we'll QA that entire process and see what's broken. And then we can know exactly. And then obviously behind all of that, we put all of the data into our audit tools that we have internally and know, you know, why can't they scale? Number one issue that people come to me for is I can't scale my offer. Well, what is wrong with it? Right. It's not, it just can't be advertising. Do you understand your numbers? Do you know what your cost per click is? Do you know what your EPCs are? Do you know what you're, you know, AOV is like every single detail, everything we do is so data-driven that we don't take guesses. We make it based on numbers. And the reason why I say this all the time is my favorite line ever on a sales call is men lie, women lie, numbers don't. So I don't care how I feel, I don't care how you feel, go by the numbers because that's how you're going to get to the goal that you want to get to. Yeah. And how are you doing that internally? Like you have like data guys? We've got full, pretty much full data guys internally. We've got my brother who runs our entire strategy team now. He's the guy that just literally goes and then rips apart everything. He's just a savage or a savant when it comes to being able to look at numbers and look at offers and everything else on that part. We've built some internal tools that are just our own IP specifically. And then now what we're about to release and we're testing this with some of our big spenders is we built this tool where essentially if you've spent ads for say consistently six to 12 months before and say, you know, what do we February of 2025? So anything from before here six months before I put it into the tool that we've built and within 90% accuracy, I can tell you what your costs are going to be for the next 13 to 52 weeks ahead. Oh, that's dope. That's like some custom code itself. Press some code itself. Yeah, because we got so much data, right? Like in the info space, I know in my ads, I say we spent over $150 million, but we spent well over that in advertising on the info space. We've taken all of that data, fed it with a data analyst that's kind of built this entire thing. And we know and then taken every single thing that's gone into play, you know, obviously blacks want events like COVID don't count. But every single thing looking at, you know, Q4 numbers, Q1 numbers, looking at what's gone on the in the economic cycles, everything for the last six years that we've been doing this consistently and tested it over and over and over again, where we took it 2023 numbers. And then we saw clients 2024 numbers and saw what the tool pushed out to be what 2024 was. And that's how we know we were within 90% accuracy. Got it. So you have like one main data analyst guy or multiple? Yeah, multiple, which is kind of depending on what we need. But the way we've done it now is even more put it through AI. So we've built, we've kind of built it out and then let the AI build it because the AI is going to be the way to go. Got it. And then you still have a few implementation guys who are like collecting because I guess that's where I'm also interested in like at this point with so many clients, you have a lot of complexity, right? You have different CRM systems and hotspot close. Go higher level. All that stuff. Yeah. So how did you guys deal with that? So our main, so we've got two internal tech guys really that are very high level. One of the guys that's internally their main column tech integrator that you want to call him. He used to be actually the head at infusion soft. So he's done and worked with every big CRM that you can think of. So he kind of goes in and makes sure everything is Q8 all the way through. And obviously not only we look at CRMs, we're also looking at third party tracking tools, right? Whether we're using high rows or whether we're using triple wheel on some of our direct to consumer brands or, you know, wicked reports. There's so many different ways of making sure everything is set up. So we don't turn on ads until everything is Q8 all the way through. Go ahead. Are you also rejecting clients? If you see that they have crazy tools that you don't want to work with or are you at this point that dial in as you can just figure out? No. If there's tools that we can't really work with, what will suggest if they really want to work with us is like, okay, if you want to use that, let's figure out a tool that we can use and then figure out a way to merge both the data across and just whether it's an EPI call or whatever. And then that way they can have their tool like we've got clients that have built massive custom dashboards, right? Like one of our clients at one point was spending a quarter million dollars a day and they needed an internal dashboard because of sales teams and organic and everything else. And we're like, okay, well, let's use high rows and RN and then we'll just feed that data back to your to your dashboard and kind of go down that road. So just kind of ends up in a negotiation battle. Sometimes our battle but negotiation tool. Nor it's like, let's simplify it on RN, but you use with your internal data analysts and teams that they have specifically. Got it. Before we go into how to spend 250k a day. That's what you said right. Let's circle back a little bit because it's also connected to how to spend 250k a day to a lot of people are lazy nowadays or they don't put in a work. We talked about that before the podcast. So I'm curious like, what's your creative process look like right now because that's also something that I see it's like a lot of people that don't create a certain amount of creatives every month or week as a KPI. So can you walk me through like the creative like systems or like benchmarks that you have for let's say 100k spent per month 100k a day to 250k. Yeah, so essentially the way we look at it is in coin once again internally and so I'm going to use a lot of our internal terms is the waterfall effect right. So it's like, let's just say if someone comes on the low and they're spending call it 15 to 30k a month right which is a pretty low in terms of scale for us. We'll test with between four and five pieces of creative a week brand new creatives a week and that's not just video and static that's also copied. So it's like four to five per so it's four to five video four to five static four to five pieces of copy and it's not a win lose situation ever it's a win get better right. So it's like we just find okay what's winning now that's our new benchmark that's our new control now we got to build another four to five and then if we scale even more than it goes to eight to 10 to 15 all of it to 40 to 15 new creatives a week is what we're testing across the board. So that's what you mentioned like when you start spending like a hundred k per week yeah you're kind of like at that four hundred a week you're pretty much north of 30 to 40 pieces of creative a week. Yeah yeah and do clients like then also need to start recording that once a week or you can. No because our team is so dialed internally so what we do is once a month is usually what we record like we've got clients that love recording at so see if they I prefer people wanting to record all the time. I know that's never going to happen but once a month is what we usually ask our clients to record as much as they possibly can and then we take that and then we splice it and then obviously we're testing you know different hooks different you know different openers different and then we'll use AI for certain things or B-roll for certain things to test on the front end because a lot of the times it's just testing that first three to five seconds right especially on before talking video on the copy side it's very simple because it's like we're gonna use this we'll use call it eight different hooks majority of the time it's the same body and then and then eight different call to actions. So it's like if we know the body is going to work and we can figure that out then we can spit out different things at a much faster rate. Yeah yeah yeah yeah got it and then for it 250k a day that's just it well 250k a day is like we're continuously testing but a lot of times we'll find a couple winners that just keep running and then we'll just hammer those things to the point where we just break it and then once we start to see you know CTR is going up on on specific metrics then we'll start pushing more creatives to try and compete at that level got it and if we're talking about like your records in terms of ad spent per month like what is like the most you have spent for a client in like one month four million four million I was that info space or info and did you do more in other industries where it's info we've got a client right now in the supplement space that'll break that I would say within the next 60 days looking at the scale numbers they're pacing for about six million a month probably by the end of April in ad spent that's crazy you think like what do you think the cap is for like do you know anybody who's spending more than four to six million a month on ads I've seen I've seen some accounts like I'll tell you right now you know the brand hymns and hers have you seen their peptide company or telehealth company based on the US I'm not sure if they're big out in Europe or oh here are here I know on Google alone they're spending north of 20 million dollars a month 20 million that's like peptides in peptides ED supplements hair restoration products everything else and yeah I know they're spending north or 20 million dollars more got it and you get that info right from Google reps because at a certain level I also have some of them now they can kind of like we cannot tell you exactly what that brand is doing but they can tell you like there's all our people in this space who are spending that and then you kind of know who it is but they can't really share the name of course that's how you get that inside and in the info space anybody who's like doing a lot that you're aware of that scale no in the last year it's been interesting to see right because info really got hit last year pretty aggressively um I'd say 4 to 5 million is pretty the largest that I've seen in the info space I'm not saying is not I've just not seen anyone that's passed like the 5 million dollar a month mark yeah and let's say you start spending that 4 to 5 million a month like how hard or easy is it to maintain that because I also know that then like trust by the reviews read at threads and all those things starting to get into play it just really comes down to it right so any any time and this goes back to the guides that I learned from like one of the very first mentors of mine in the direct response space was Jay Abraham right and then obviously I've learned a lot from Dan Kennedy and kind of run it is and then I keep harping this even with our team internally and with our clients is anytime a client gets to those kind of volumes they know their numbers so friggin well that they go aggressively negative on the front end yeah and then they make sure that all their money is made on the back end yeah and I'll give you a perfect example so the client that we were spending 4 million a month for them there were a 2k automated webinar but they knew they're 8k back end and then they had a $25,000 product in the back end so yeah we were allowed to go as aggressive as we wanted up to a certain limit for 2k acquisition as long as they were on date so it was from 0 to 60 it they were negative day 61 they needed to be 100% positive on return on that spend so that's how you can essentially buy out the market yeah right so it's like you know Dan Kennedy talks about any big direct response market or talks about it it's like the one that can spend the most acquire client wins if you have that mentality you could scale yeah this is also where laziness doesn't help because you have to actually do the math you like have to check like okay what's the average duration of this stuff and then also I guess that brings us to the next part is like the business owner has to have has to be brave very brave and trust like yeah this one specific cliently we've launched offers for them and you know they've got a few different offers that they're running there but it's like we've launched offers for them they'll spend $250,000 just testing yeah testing and it just won't work shut it off move on right like that's the kind of that's the kind of obviously they've gotten to the point where they have liquidity to be able to push that off but it's like you know people come in and say oh I only want to spend $50 a day and I want to see if this works it's like do you realize if $50 a day I'm not even going to have enough data to tell you if you're if you can close better yeah right like that's really what it comes down to yeah that's also I talked about it with another zero guy car like a lot of people they they don't even understand like the whole data thing it's like oh yeah tested it for a week and you know bro you had like seven sales calls yeah it doesn't make any sense at all yeah yeah yeah it's it's fine that you're seeing the same thing with 250k that's but that's the some big money here yeah got it so and you also just already mentioned a few price points so I'm kind of curious about like the whole like back end infrastructure for certain price points let's say you're only selling something for like 5k I don't think it's doable right to like spend four million a month that let's also back it let's also transition a little bit to like revenue instead of adspan because it's a little bit easier for people listening watching like let's say you have like an offer for like 5 to 10k just one off right or maybe use first cell and for 5k and then another 5k yeah what do you think kind of the limit is there like in terms of revenue that you can do can you get up to a million a month with a 5 to 10k offer with a 10k you can do it with a 10k offer with a 5k offer you're going to struggle so that's it's possible but it's gonna be hard it's gonna be hard right you're gonna want the with the thing with a 5k offer and if that's your only offer yeah you're not gonna profitably be at a million a month you'll be at a revenue standpoint a million a month yeah but then it's like how much are you paying your sales team how much is it costing you to acquire leads or like there's so many different factors that you've got to look into that that you're not paying attention to if I ever see an offer and we see this quite often where it's like they've only got one price point and that's 5k 6k whatever yeah my number one thing is let's go either low ticket to make that yourself liquidating it's at some level or let's go find build something that's gonna be higher in because just that one number is just at some point gonna run out you're just not gonna do it right yeah so let's say you're like your product your coaching is like 5k you can probably get it up to a million a month but with like 10 or 20 percent profit margin if you're lucky yeah yeah and then if you're like at 10k then maybe we can get into the 20 to 30 percent margin with the thing with 10k one like when we've got a few coaching offers we have an offer internally as well that we're testing right now at 10k and I want to see how hard I can push that specific offer to a million a month as fast as I can yeah and the reason being is I'm leveraging and I want to do this as a case study internally so that I can actually take it out to the coaching market and info market and share people that can do this because I've we've done the numbers to make it mathematically look like it can make sense but I want to see once we back it out what it actually looks like between advertising costs and team costs is you could do it through ads and then the easiest way to actually break that up is also have a DM setting team behind it right so we're leveraging a lot of DMs right now back in you know my background comes from also having you know a DM software one point of my life but leveraging between ads direct to VSL to 5 to 10k offer and then as well as ad directly to or organically directly to hey DM me this and then having a DM setting team you could get to 10 you could get to a million a month very very quickly I would say that and then what I mean by quick is you know within four to six months very which is pretty decent but we haven't backed out what the actual true profit margins will be yet got it and you're saying the DM thing just to like kind of diversify the funnel to have two funnels so you have more market penetration more market penetration and also you can aggregate your cost per acquisition because there's some cross cross right because it's like if they come through if they come through the VSL and then all of a sudden they don't buy you can have your DM team give them the leads or if you have an SDR give them the leads and say hey call put this person on the call the DM team can just go reach out to them on Instagram most of the time they're on Instagram and then leverage that and then as well as running ads directly to DMs which is disgustingly cheap and then having the DM team take it over and qualify from there so you are still running quite a bunch of DMs we worked for a long time like we did you know back in 2019 2020 2021 or right up until 2020 I should say and then we did here and there but now I'm putting a lot more emphasis back into it just because I'm seeing it work really well meaning cost per DM is like 5 to 10 bucks it's yeah it's just disgustingly cheap got it and off camera you also talk a little bit about like using that to force people to follow you yeah so what would the strategy look like that it's like you do an ad you're like hey you want to get my freebie DM in award freebie yeah and then essentially essentially many chat has a has a trigger now we would think if they DM you and they don't follow you yeah it gives them the things that hit go and follow me and then once they hit follow then it comes back and then then gives them the freebie so that way you're building your organic growth of the exact same time is is building not only your list internally through many chat but then you're also pushing them to all you other stuff so it's like essentially what I'm calling life like an omnipresent marketing or in the what I like to call as an infinity loop really so it's like try and keep that one prospect in your loop as far as long as you possibly can yeah do you have any numbers yeah I don't know how much you're paying per follower there or not yet we just I just figured this out like literally six weeks ago so it's like I want like for me it's like I usually like to want at least 90 days full worth of data to make this is worth this is where benchmarks should be in this what we can scale against but it's working make sense make sense and let's say you have a via gel right and you want to start running the m ads like how would you use that funnel to then start running the m ads if you have a via so fun if you just want DM ads I'm just really running an ad to DM and then obviously hit the follow feature right off the gecko and then from there you can automate you pretty much the whole thing right up until you drop the via cell link in your DMs and then you know within call it whatever the length of time the via cell is I would have another trigger come out and say and either either figure out the trigger to say you know you're ready to move forward whatever and if that's the trigger so if it's a 30 minute via cell I'll probably give them like a 15-minute buffer four five minutes and I'm with the DM and if they don't respond then I would hand it over to a manual suddenly DM team to take it over from there got it yeah so maybe my I was not communicating my clashing question clearly so what if let's say you're running like you're you're free you're via cell phone or I check my free video whether you want to use a word free video whatever but then you would just change that ad to like hey if you want to get the free the video send me the word DM video whatever the word is yeah and just use the same funnel the same exact boom DM follow me send the via cell and do that and of course then you have a whole team behind it so now essentially because if they're coming into the DM you're picking up the socials you're getting the list on many chat because you're building a list internally as well and then when they go to the and then the one thing that I would make sure that you do through when you come through DMs is don't make make them force opt-in again just give them the video yeah right so it's like give them the video just to see if they follow you exactly yeah uh because I've seen people where it's like you know follow me DM me whatever and then you're still not there now you still do your mom's number I'm like you already have them on your DMs like just hammer them there yeah uh that's really what it comes down to got it and like when I was running DM it's like two or three years back um I always felt like they didn't scale that well I always felt like there's a smaller audience that you know once I don't think you can get I don't think you can get up the scale but it's like I said we're using it side by side to what can be a scale campaign yeah but to see how much we can break our costs god it's so it's mainly retarding really retard and maybe you do cold but it goes up to like 30k per month spend or something back I would say if I could we haven't even pushed that far yet okay so it's 100% retard yeah that's what you recommend like let's say you're spending a 100k a month then it makes sense to spend an extra 5k retard just retargeting crap out of them yeah we're gonna push we're gonna push very aggressively yeah um and we're also testing it with some other offers that I'm partnered with and to leverage them to kind of come in and and use the DM funnel to test as well yeah yeah I mean I think especially with if you also get the follow these DMs are worth a lot more than they were before right absolutely before the before the trigger the follow trigger didn't exist exactly so I don't even know when because I haven't played around with many chat in a while but when I saw that come out or when someone said me that it came out I was like this I can get some fun with yeah yeah it's it's interesting I noticed that when somebody was like hey this is a cool playlist and I DM them like I sent me the playlist you know like this guy and then it's like oh he first have to follow me I'm like I'm following you and then it's like no you know I'll turn like okay fuck you fool yeah because the trigger picks it up yeah yeah yeah it's interesting all right that's cool why why do you think like now it's kind of going back towards DMs again like why is that because before it kind of died out a little bit it was popular like and you've been how long have been doing Internet or I'm marketing 20 years no not that long since 2012 yeah whatever that's 13 years yeah yeah close to 15 so you kind of see those trends like you have live webinars of automated web streaming sales sales DMs like what do you think it's or maybe don't know but why is it shifting again I think so there's two this this is complete my my thought in my opinion that's right so it's like it's not it's not like this is what it's gonna be so it's like anybody watching this I come from the world of you know 2012 to 2014 I just did affiliate marketing yeah just to generate almost black hatchet and then when I started to go white hat I was like and I started to learn from people like I said Jay and Tony and all these and Dean and all these guys was understanding true direct response marketing is it's got to get to the point of people understanding there has to be some sort of front end free liquidating offer like give them something for free sell them something cheaper and then ascend them through the phone right yeah that's just true direct response at scale obviously there's a lot of more nuances to it now when the Facebook ads got really good and VSLs became such a massive thing it obviously you know the whole market shifted directly from ad to VSL to book or called to close yeah which people were like ad costs made sense to do that because ad costs were so cheap so you could scale that then we had a black swan event like covid which came on top of that so the way I look at anything across the board is like marketing cycles and economic cycles of running a seven-year parallel system so it's like what happened with covid is it shortened that entire marketing cycle three years ahead ish in my opinion and when all the stimulus money came into play info market went through the roof because people were sitting at home and they kind of bought everything else and now we're seeing the backlash of that currently and going back to answering your question is the only way to make these offers work now is go back to what true direct response marketing really is and start doing things for free build a list give them something for cheaper so they know like entrustives they're continually spending more time with you yeah then go for the kill yeah and I guess also they're like really like the hyper segmentation where if people want to buy something more i take it you try to get them there as fast as possible if they don't you go for a low-take at the mistake yeah but it's just like and it you know it's like everybody in this info space has seen what schools done recently and you know the whole community thought pattern and I think it they've done a good job at building the community stuff it's just like people want to be part of a community they don't want to be sold to right so if you can build a community around everything that you're doing and they get to know like no you trust you like you they're going to want to spend money with you yeah so it's like going back to that and it doesn't have to be on a platform like school can be on whatever platform and just I'm just leveraging because there's so much noise in the industry based on what's going on right now but it's like take that thought pattern and psychological being around it and put it into your marketing where it's like hey i'm going to give as much as i can up front knowing that in 30 60 90 days i'm going to in fair exchange get back everything that i want god i said do you think there's kind of like a resurgence of like not Facebook groups now but now it's going to be like more like school groups discord groups you see that's happening massively massively the discord communities telegram communities are blown up on telegrams becoming a big bigger and bigger thing now yeah school obviously and there's so many different platforms right like to circle and ID networks and all these other platforms that are coming out yeah because the client and community guys kind of kills Facebook groups at some point i mean push it aggressively prop props to them like i'm not saying that's a bad thing so and you see that's one of the things that you see coming back like communities discord communities and there's obviously lists you know properly email marketing you're listening and community and communicating with them on multiple different standpoints right if they come in from somewhere when someone when someone when someone comes into your world they come into your world for a reason whether it's to an ad with it through social policy it's a story whatever it is they're coming into into your world for some reason specifically because they saw something in you that you they wanted to know more of and they liked you for whatever reason now just give them more of that at much more value and they will give you a lot more of their money yeah now the only challenge there is that you know also having a free community means you need to create even more content or at least that's how it appears to me from the outside it does but you can build teams internally for really cost effectively but it's like it's the free community essentially is just your call it newsletter yeah right like it's just giving people some sort of content whether it's entry level content on a consistent basis and you can sit down and once a month or once a quarter just record everything for once a week and then just drop it so it's like what 12 weeks in a month 12 pieces of content really not that hard to do once a quarter yeah that was kind of my follow-up question do you see that all these companies that are really crushing it or like that's also partly what your agency is doing I guess it's like kind of combining all these things right because the newsletter could be a discord post and it could also be a video that you post in a discord yeah where you have like let's say you have always the cool acquisition the acquisition channel and then you have the nurture channel where they're kind of like combining these things so that instead of writing one email that one email is like a discord post the social post an email you can just take one piece of content and then split it apart but now but it's like why like my thing and this is even with what we're doing internally with some of our clients is like just pick one platform okay right pick one platform of free now let's say if you're recording a YouTube video and a YouTube video is going to have all the content of course go post that on YouTube for sure but then take all of that and if you're going to do it as a and you're going to do it as a newsletter take it and use AI to put it into a newsletter and then just email your newsletter so people have a community that's continually going yeah that way it's like I wouldn't do school and discord and telegram no no no I mean more like like you have let's say one community which discord then you have your Instagram then you have your email list you have your SMS list maybe have a WhatsApp list yeah that's also becoming bigger now in the US what's up or no starting to yeah I know other markets were huge for a while now they're starting to put a lot more emphasis on to WhatsApp groups I'm starting to notice a lot more people doing that I'm seeing telegram more than I'm seeing WhatsApp yeah which is interesting because WhatsApp I think I'm just maybe because I communicate a lot more and WhatsApp in the US and I do on telegram but I'm seeing telegram groups bigger for some reason I guess that's the whole like anonymous like yeah because WhatsApp is kind of made out it's not a marketing direction that's what it is getting the encrypted but WhatsApp might be an amazing but it's yeah oh but at majority of the business I do is on WhatsApp today yeah yeah okay that's interesting so but it's happening but it's not like my adoption yet in the US uh no I don't it's definitely early stages but I think it'll pick up pretty aggressively over the next probably year to two years yeah yeah yeah I guess in the US it's also like a lot of iMessenger it's super random not we're talking about WhatsApp first it was like a good idea right as it still seems to have your own iPhone so you could get the blue marks and all that stuff but now you see a lot of uh serum systems or like just already integrating it with like send blue and something like with the fake samples are you already seeing like some shift happening there or I think the send blue thing funny enough is like I didn't think it was going to make that big of a change but it's like some of our clients that have used it and tested it it's actually helped quite a bit yeah right because it's like you and and I can understand it from a psychological standpoint and everything that I look at it is how is this as a human being and what are they thinking right marketing what's going on in here yeah um rightly that's what it comes down to and for the early part of it maybe just because I've been an iPhone user for so long like since inception that it's like it's just kind of unconscious competence for me but when I saw some of our clients use tools like send blue I was like huh that's interesting and the reason being is because if you're like it's just got a subconscious trust aspect to having a blue message come through versus a green one because all of these spam numbers sending you all these green you know these green messages you don't know what's right what's right when what's not or who's really who's not yeah I was pleasantly surprised to see how much it actually helped yeah all right yeah that's one of those things we'll see how that goes and that will get some probably working right now yeah we could have this conversation in six months when I'm back and divine and probably say do something different yeah yeah then it's all WhatsApp and Telegram yeah what about signal not that big like even like I don't I know you're up you guys use signal quite a bit first certain places but um not that big like I only use signal for some of my family that lives here sometimes like that's really about it all right got you so that's one part so far that's kind of happening and it's kind of new another thing which is not new but like there's a lot of new stuff happening is payment providers I think you're also would love to talk a little bit about that so we had a new player yeah enter the market yeah that was whoop yeah they came by store yeah and we'll see what's gonna happen now because there are some interesting stories uh cooking up behind the scenes going around so let's see how they're doing but there's another one and you are consulting them maybe you can share a little bit about fanbase yeah so I've been working with the guys of fanbase is now for about three months or so uh guys that run that company are absolutely phenomenal dudes and they're built the company and this was my very first conversation that I had with them was like you know I they wanted me to kind of obviously come in help them with some consulting whatever open up the networks all that good stuff and I said I saw what your competitor did and I saw the money that they were offering people and I was like mathematically and economically it doesn't make sense like it just didn't like morally just didn't make sense to take the kind of money that they were even offering me and uh and then it came down to and I said listen if you guys are gonna do this we gotta do this legit because at the end of the day I've been in this industry for a long time I've got to pull in a lot of OG direct response marketers that wouldn't take you seriously at all right so it's like let's do this and do this correctly so one thing that we've done over the last 60 days that I've been more integrated with them is you know getting them to understand how to work with some of these OG internet marketers direct response marketers because they have a very different way a very different thought pattern a very different relationship structure then you know what most of these Miami balcony boys are used to working with right that's kind of the way it is and that's what their competitor did is they went after that market and I think that's part of the reason why they're dealing with the downfall that they are today uh whereas fan bases is made a very strong effort even in the short period of time that I've been there on being operation driven making sure that they take care of the customers and making sure that they deliver on everything they say they're going to do because at the end of the day it's like you want to bring the big guys on you have to you have to deliver what you say you're going to do um and you know spend a fun ride so far working with them um we've pushed a lot of volume over in a very short period of time um some names will be out publicly soon um on who's partnering with us on it um um and you know we've got a tool that's going to be coming multiple tools is going to be coming off the back end of this some of the stuff that I've seen them in development that's coming obviously can't talk about it right now um but it's not just heavily focused on payment processing it's actually more you know entire community based uh platform is what the entire process is going to be one thing with fan bases that most people don't realize is and what I really liked about it is but I'd seen them before before I met the owner um I'd actually was going to use their platform because if you're familiar with the platform called cameo where you can go on pay a celebrity to do a big show uh fan bases was actually one of their biggest competitors so they have another platform that exists that's a let's see essentially a cameo competitor and they have a lot of good influencers on there and if you know how to leverage that and then bring that into your communities later on while using the tool there's a lot across over and how that can happen got it now for the viewers and watches like uh listeners um they might not really know much about fan base for me it also only started popping up in the last one or two months I saw their name being mentioned here and there so maybe let's take a step back and you can uh you know for to be transparent he's consulting them so he has some uh he's he's talking from that perspective but can you explain a little bit like what you think if we compare fan base versus whoope and versus i mean everybody hates tribe nowadays yeah but how do you feel like they what is their strength in the market right now ex like of course they're like operation driven yeah the strength in the market is um they've got the financing that's back and that's built around them the people the big influencers are coming to back them um at the end of the day the way i look at the platform i don't know a lot about the whole payment processing space and i can be completely upfront about that um i've dealt with stripe and i've had absolute nothing but nightmares with stripe across the board um but the one thing that they did was they made it very easy to use right and especially if we're just once again talking about the information space it's like you know people have a very short attention span it's like how do we make a tool that's going to be as easy for someone to use make it potentially just as good as stripe without having to deal with all of the headaches of stripe so there's a drawback essentially stripe is the enemy um and let's make it easy and then on top of that give them things like buy and out pay later options that stripe really didn't give you and that's what you know fan base this is done and they've got multiple different buy and out pay later options whereas some of the competitors only have the two big ones which is a form and carna uh and then now we're integrating many different other platforms across the board so ease of use having a solid team behind them on the finance side that gets how to manage it obviously there's also risk mitigation and charge back mitigation and everything else and then being able to scale on top of that yeah because with uh woke there pretty much based on stripe yeah is fan base also um or yes and no can't talk about all right yeah we'll skip that yeah it sounds like at least they have a better solution because it's not only striped yeah let's do it like that but um yeah exciting to see what um what you're gonna do there so right now you guys are reaching out to a bunch of influencers and just gonna use the home networking thing are you guys also gonna do some crazy as well later on we're doing we've already done like we just threw a party funny enough so fun I can live just happen 10 days ago I believe in in Vegas I couldn't make it because it was my daughter's birthday um but what I said to them is said you know there's there's essentially hijacking the market yeah which is kind of what what did or there's a way to do it and you do it elegantly right and you come in we run ads we do what we do specifically so we're gonna run a ton of ads um obviously network we're doing a ton of dinners for people getting to know me and and I said to the guy I said we have to do this elegantly not just blow money like it's going out of fashion because we don't we have an example of what not to do yeah um on one side and then we're also like we're you know we're going to buy right now and we're throwing a mixer in two days here and kind of bringing some people together so it's also adding the network effect to the whole thing not just from you know specific people that have deep connections it's like let's build a community going back over time let's build a community around it it's a community platform and start doing that more often so there's gonna be multiples uh facets to it sponsoring obviously ads gonna work really well um events being um you know side side projects and everything else and then one of the things that we're doing that's gonna come probably the first one's gonna be in May um is uh experiential events so it's like obviously in the info space everyone want to let once the leverage you know lifestyle as part of their entire thing so we're gonna put together a big we're negotiating one right now where we're gonna do essentially a 24 hour marathon for a podcast with a very big podcast name and then all of their big call it users on platform we'll get interviewed by this by this specific person uh and then from there so over 24 hours we're gonna stream it the whole thing in person etc and then from there to the next three days we're gonna spend more than likely um can i say it i'll say it if we need to cut it out we'll cut it after um is uh we're gonna take everyone there to formulate one of Miami all right video editor my death cut this out talk about it all right so that would be pretty uh pretty insane yeah we'll get you a bunch of uh instagram stories uh that that we're gonna i'm gonna definitely vlog that one for sure yeah everybody's gonna vlog the other thing so that's gonna be good are there any other like tools or things that you're involved with right now that you're uh hyped about that you're looking forward to in 2025 um a one that i'm interested in full transparency we have inside the deal and then he means and i'm getting a lot of these because of obviously experience and and i'm you know my big thing is there's a new tool coming out every day yeah right in what we do and it's like i want to find a tool that i know i can back fully and my my company can be a heavy user internally on the tool um fanbase is being one we tested it we love it it's been phenomenal i'm gonna back it talking about it um obviously go high level we're you know pretty decent affiliate platform for them um and then one that i'm really interested in right now it's early stage um they don't pretty well but they're really really good because we do a lot of cold email internally at our company it's a company called databar.ai okay um if you're very familiar with clay if you heard about it yeah so it's like it is like clay but 10 times easier to use maybe for a few words give a little bit more uh essentially it is a tool for if you're gonna do any sort of cold out rich any sort of cold email it literally can make your life 10 times easier because it can get you literally detailed based audiences from all the data that they're pulling yeah uh and then from their literally breaking down so that you can sequentially hit people custom with AI obviously writing etc and in multiple facets because you can use it for cold email you can use it for LinkedIn obviously there's some other stuff that i want to bring and i want to see you into the platform at some point they have a part where for if you're understanding b2b audiences and you're targeting b2b audiences like i am you can aggregate specific data sets directly from in there for local like audiences and put that on to your platform use it as you want it like for your business we know how facebook likes that and doesn't like that um at the end of the day so it's like there's multiple facets it's right now built for b2b companies like agencies uh specifically or any major b2b company um i'm using it a lot and i'm loving it um so far for what's working and it's also like warming up the mains switching the mains checking or the livability or is that it's just like pure data appear data appear data across the board and then obviously you can connect your tools like smart leader instantly or whatever other tool that you're using behind the scenes for your cold email but it's essentially just making it as simple as possible so you're not having to go scrape and then write the emails and figure out who the person is and what the what income levels because it gives you everything across the board it sounds pretty handy yeah what's the goal again it's called data bar data bar okay and you also just mentioned of camera something about an AI book writing yeah tool i don't know if you were considering or just my investment in that company uh yeah i mean that's that company it's company called movable type dot AI um essentially the person that built this tool is a good friend of mine um OG copywriter built when AI was kind of starting to build he was actually I believe he was a cmo uh at jasper dot AI at one point if i'm not mistaken and if you've been in this role you know who jasper was um and he launches tool for pretty much automated writing books through AI and you know early days was pretty fondly kind of was cool and then it started to really take some really take some traction behind the scenes as to what it was going on uh now this thing can write like full 200 300 page books for you completely in your voice there's a book that i'm going to be launching um within the next 90 days 100% of that book was written through that and when you read it it literally sounds like it's my voice this is quite interesting so let's zoom in a little bit there like i guess there's multiple stages first you kind of start with like giving them some feedback you're uploading youtube videos maybe you give them an outline or what's like you feed it as much data as you have right so it's um i'm not sure i'm not 100% sure if it takes video yet but essentially we just try to transcribe it and put it in there um it's pretty much fed it as much of my voice right take it yeah reals taking youtube videos taking podcasts and just fed it as much of my voice so i can kind of understand that then fed it all the information of my company and what we've done fed it case studies of what we've done um given it examples of what i would do in certain niches because i'm talking about certain things um in because i'm coining a specific term in the marketing world that's going to come out um on how we built that entire thing and then it literally within call it 10 to 15 minutes it's spit out the first version of the book and it does the outline itself like it comes up with a structure yeah you can you still like fine tunel it you have full you have full editing capabilities inside of it yeah that's the only thing i would be you'd be worried about the structure especially if you're i mean it's just like you're explaining complicated concepts so if you mix up the sequencing then yeah you you you you go in and kind of fix it but it's so damn smart at AI I can kind of see in as long as you're giving it you know all the way through point by point my point or you can even give it a structure let's see you go on google doc and you feed it how want this is a structure want my book in this is all the data that i wanted to feed per chapter go write me book sounds pretty good what's uh how much does it cost a couple they just up they just change the pricing recently just before final happy about thousands no no no no no no no no hundreds yeah hundreds yeah i know we just change it just before the last event so i'm not in the center of the top right the price is the squeeze out the click on that that's cool but it like you feel like it was your voice it didn't say anything crazy no not at all like i read this entire book like front to back and i'm like this is exactly how i would write the book i was like all right this is and now they're actually launching an audiobook version that's going to come out so you can take it and even have an audiobook immediately popped up great so then you oh man that's it's going to be good how many i probably don't want to get this close all of that stuff so let's stop talking about the tools anyways so um the other thing that's quite interesting is it seems like you are traveling a lot yeah how many times that you uh or how many trips did you do this year last year actually i didn't do as much uh last year was more because we essentially took a step back inside the company to clean up our operations rebuilding operations um and i just had it on so you know spend more and spend some time with the family um this year it's middle of February and i've already been to Miami twice i've already been to Vegas and i'm in Dubai and i get home from Dubai and go to Miami and then apparently i'm supposed to go to Japan at the end of March so let's literally Japan for fun or whatever for a business for a networking uh mastermind let's i got invited to like a very high level mastermind in in japan that is that outside of the info space i'll completely that was i think yes i've never heard about anybody do anything i don't it's like uh uh it's in naseco for like a ski snowboard a couple days and then i think we're going to Tokyo and spending a couple days in Tokyo after what kind of industry is the mastermind for uh it's essentially any it's businesses that are doing north of i believe 50 million a year that got invited and i got invited because of fan bases um and what we're doing there um and most of the companies are at nine figure year companies that's some next level stuff yeah so anyways you're gonna travel a lot yeah that's a big part of what you're doing right now that's networking yeah just meeting up people um how did you get started with all of that kind of stuff did you always like networking since you were starting in the affiliate with affiliate marketing and all that stuff well yes and yes and yes and no so as a kid it was a very introverted child right like i'm gonna i'm gonna give you guys a bit of a life story here it's hilarious because as a kid it was a very introverted child grew up in a family that was like focus on your school focus on your school be the top of the class blah blah blah and i got to high school and i realized i'm good at this but i actually do have a very extroverted side of me uh and that extroverted side of me is it's not like i want to go party and all the time or anything else i just want to meet cool people doing cool shit like that's kind of the part that i like because i like experiences over anything else um and then through that whole process went to college i did door-to-door sales for two and a half years got really really good at that and then i got pulled into a direct selling company that we took from essentially like seven figures to multi-eat figures in 18 months very quickly this is pre-internet um and then i went into a affiliate marketing after that and that was just me and my computer and i got bored let's get back there how did you get into a affiliate marketing that's always an interesting one because in back in the day there was not like bunch for ads no uh so essentially what i was doing so i was the direct uh the direct sales company that i was working for selling an education product you know and this is before high ticket with something was like you're selling DVDs and CDs uh it was actually a two it was actually a software that people would put into the computer uh to teach kids to get better from the kindergarten all the way to grade 12 right yeah the major subjects um and i got really good at selling one-to-one like really good at selling one-to-one and then i just got really bored right like it was my personalities like if i get good at something and it doesn't challenge me consistently challenge me i got really bored uh and then one day it was literally just you know laying in bed middle of the night like you know what what else can i learn from my sales job blah blah blah blah like kind of just searching a bunch of stuff and online marketing came up and this is i'm talking 2012 right this is before everyone even know what internet marketing was um and found this ebook course thing that i bought online information course online it was affiliate marketing learn to do that went on click bang this went click bank was kind of starting to become big sold a bunch of um offers off of click bank and then got pretty decent like i wouldn't say it was like life changing money but it was enough that i could still do my sales job and then do this at the same time if i wanted to um and then realize that you know me and a computer by myself and no one to talk to on a day-to-day basis was not something that i enjoyed because it was like yes you could talk to people on Skype or whatever the hell at that point in time we were using yeah it's funny because affiliate world today still uses Skype like that's what most of people talk they're starting to move to telegram now with their selling Skype um and then through the process of getting decently good at marketing there you know starting helping family family members and friends with their companies and running google ads and all that good stuff uh the agency happened to come out of fruition that happened around 2014 2015 um and then i started going to events and kind of talking to people and i was like i like this this is kind of cool this kind of brought back my old self again in terms of the sales world and i just really committed to events for from 20 call it 17 to essentially covid i just committed to being at every event i possibly could um and then that's just where the networking became just part of my ethos and it's become what i do now it's become what i'm known for now um people want something a lot of the times they know i'm either either have direct contacts to them or know someone they can get to them within one phone call and it's just something that i truly enjoy doing now because you know even before the podcast the cabin lunch and getting caught up and kind of doing that stuff is like that little thing goes a long way right we may not do anything today but you're two years five years from now we never know what that could turn into because we continuously build that relationship all the way through yeah yeah that's crazy but i like what is your are you on trt or something uh yes yeah now i'm sorry for putting you on this spot here with this random just up through my mind i just a lot yes a lot of it i did literally just this morning so i was talking to a friend of mine last night um i dinner with him and he's like bro i don't understand how you travel so much yeah and i don't understand how like and think about it it's like i got kids at home right so when i go home i got to deal with kids as well yeah and say i come across the world i'm coming for like essentially five and a half days like i'm in Dubai for five and a half days i'm on a complete opposite time zone and i got to go back to a complete opposite time zone um and earlier days when i was doing this it was just there's a lot of caffeine and a lot of nicotine we can play honest with you that's literally what it was now that doesn't last long for both people that understand because you're gonna shoot your body uh into the ground and i did and fully completely like shot my body to the ground my health had gone to complete trash um and you know wasn't being able to sleep like had minimal energy levels everything else and then as i got closer to like thirty one thirty two um you know one of my personal trainers was like you might want to go look at your blood panels and then it was like okay well let's go look at that so now it's like every did my blood panels got on some nothing crazy just low doses of TRT and peptides peptides have been a godsend for me since 2021 like it is something that i swear by and that's the reason i'm also double downing on it in my uh company and now when i travel my supplement protocol and my peptide protocol and making sure i drink a lot of water uh and obviously exercising those the main things i'm usually doing consistently and i'm i don't exercise to gain size or doing thing i just want to stay fit um and just making sure that i do that consistently when i travel keeps me going for as long as i can like last time i went to bed at four thirty in the morning and woke up at either in the morning today yeah because you're not just traveling you're like you're still like you're not in the weeds weeds but you're still in the weeds right because oh before the podcast you're like sharing that you are looking at an ad account and it's like well i'm like well you're still looking to add accounts but you're still and you're looking at your own ads like QAQA and stuff all the time yeah because right now i'm running pretty much our sales team running obviously still the CEO of the company so i'm obviously dealing with high-level stuff um you know and then also essentially running the marketing at the exact same time now i'm taking it on because i love it and that's kind of my myself but it's like before i sort of slowly fully delegated i still want to be heavily involved and if my face is involved i want to be as much involved as as possible in QAQA and things all the time yeah yeah i don't think anybody can do what you're doing you know like it's not saying it's not saying it all i would like give up after one or two days yeah no but this year is going to be this year i think it's going to be a lot of travel um it's just because we have some pretty big goals that we want to hit and obviously with our internal operations team that we have they're fully done and we spent all of last year doing that so this year i'm going to go all in on sales and marketing and then obviously business development and networking through what i do on the road yeah and talk a little let's just keep going a little bit more with the networking team and so right now you you're guys are running the stuff for grand kardon uh bunch for all our big names i don't know which ones you can or cannot uh yeah so we've got like some of the brands have worked with worked with over the years you know uh Dean Grazio seen Tony Robbins a mastermind dot com together um grand cardone we've run Jeff second jerson's pretty much Jeff has been in the industry keynote body prince of travel j-shetty um that's just a few kind of names that we've kind of run over the years offers that probably most people wouldn't even recognize because they're not big public names but we've spent a lot of money for them yeah so where i want to go with like those names like how did that go like in terms of the sales process was that like you've met them a couple of times like you're networking and i just keep hearing good stuff about you and then at some point when you know uh go if it happens or shit hits the fan and everything goes to shit and i reach out or how do these sales processes with like let's say grand cardone for example like kind of play out like um yeah so grants team so we ended up actually coming on with cardone ventures to run their internal traffic for their essentially companies that they invest in uh two to half three years ago i believe it's been a while um and then obviously i built a relationship with someone that had joined their team but i had those working with from someone else before they'd seen the results that we had a previous company brought us involved um and then slowly sort of working you know there they saw the results that we're getting grants team on the opposite side wanted to see what we can do they brought us on um and then one thing leads to another and like most of these sales don't happen you know meet someone today happen some of it's yeah it's a consistent show up show up show up show you know do dinners meet them at dinners go to events network you know sometimes don't even talk about business just give them values like hey what do you need up with today and it's like you know this was working for us and then go test it out and if one thing works all of a sudden now you've kind of built that subconscious trigger on their head then it's like hey everything that he said that i've tried or the one thing that he said that i tried made a big shift in my business maybe we should work with them and that's kind of how it is um and then obviously some of the case studies that we fortunately had inside of the industry that's really helped us um and you know put us on the map for that we've got a video testimonial from Dean Grazia who's seen it publicly states we are one of the best direct response marketing agencies he's ever worked with because we've been able to help him not only when we were directly integrated with this team but every year when anything goes wrong or they can't figure something out Dean will be the first one to message me yeah and you also have built a whole like client base in Miami right and just for the viewers like you are in which city in Canada oh Vancouver Canada thank you for so it's not like you're in Miami all the time no so how do you make that work like Jeff second year uh you have a bunch more guys i saw in Miami i see you with easy instagram guys yeah we've got to quite a few guys in Miami um well said on now i'm going to be in Miami once a month just going back and forth it's a friggin hall for me to do it but it is what it is Miami it's funny because before COVID it was all in California right a lot of the guys live in California COVID happened whatever happened in California so San Diego LA that whole thing they all moved to Miami and they're all kind of moving there i even just saw one of our old clients and you still a good friend of mine uh Garrett white he just moved to Miami as well i think it's just becoming a melting pot essentially because it's so much networking that goes on there and just other businesses that it just happens there and it's like then i'll go out i you know when i was there at the end of january i put on a dinner invited like 10 or 15 of the guys that are there from michael sam we're a chef friend donny french like some of the big names they're old geez in the industry and everybody comes hangs out we just break no one's really we're talking business but the intention is not to go there and get deals it's just yeah i've seen you and forever i've been seeing you in months let's grab dinner together and you know we're all walkers at the end of the day call it spade of spade and we're all sitting behind the computer still doing that we miss that in person yeah that's what i think people really like about the fact of when i come into town a lot of times i'm bringing good people together yeah and what i find interesting about you is which i think you also bring to the table is like you can still talk about other stuff than marketing and business yeah yeah you're like funny do it i want to say crazy but i don't know if that's appropriate you guys okay so you you i guess that's also why the Danish work show up because there's so many online marketing guys like they have zero hobbies i mean you what what do you you also play golf like you you do stuff like i do like like let's do me like for me it's like i want to have experience right like i don't want to get to the point in my life where it's like i'm in my deathbed whatever age that isn't 20 billion but the press the press is held like i hate my life i haven't got any experiences and you know i've had some crazy eyes and i have had some crazy lows in my career right even going through everything in the last years like watching people's businesses things going sideways all that good stuff yeah but it's like the one thing that i and i was just having this conversation with one of my really good friends in vegas two weeks ago when i was there and i was like you know going through everything that we've gone through and when we were just essentially called it printing money handover festival point in time and we would spend a lot of money doing stupid shit it's like would you ever look back at that moment and i asked him straight this face of would you look at back at the moment and said i wish i didn't spend that money in a night and he goes and his exact answer to me was absolutely fucking not and i go good because it's exactly the way i look at everything it's like you know money's a tool it comes and it goes you're gonna have good days you're gonna have bad days you're gonna have good years you're gonna bad years whatever yeah but i want to be able to look at my life and say hey did i hang out with cool fucking people doing cool shit having cool experiences yeah right that's really what it comes down to for me yeah god yeah i mean that's what most people don't do right all right they go to the club but then they are on their phone filming their poppy steak yes exactly and it's just like that's not even and it's funny because half the point people are like and we were talking about this before so you know me traveling with video art again and i've kind of stopped that over the last little bit just because i wanted some mental sanity around it um but it's like i'll go out like even last night i was out like not a single instagram story when because i want to experience it with people that i'm there sure i'll take some videos or whatever for myself or not sharing every single thing it's like i go out and see some of these people that go for the one night and half the time they're just holding their instagram story and just posting for somebody else it's like are you posting it for all your followers you put you here to enjoy for yourself yeah in europe i don't know if it's in germany it's kind of like this this meme slash instagram reel i don't know if it's in canon us first you see like festivals in 2000 and then you see everybody like going crazy techno mode is then after you see everybody filming with their phone you see the lights you guys see that as well uh we're definitely starting to see that and i noticed that so the last two years i've gone to tomorrowland um in belgium and it's like and um watching people like just literally just be dancing and holding their phone all the time up and i'm just like what's the fucking point man enjoy what you're paying for like enjoy what you're here yeah i mean i guess these people are spending a lot of money and then they want to you know keep it uh in their memory for forever because they will never do that again and for you you go to tomorrow and uh every year almost every year this point yeah i mean you get like i guess a lot of invites from like did you store all these other people like how are you even picking or you're like in certain years you just do everything yeah so like last year was very picking juicy yeah um obviously because of you know values change across the board and you know i run my life by my values and it's something that i learned from my mentor um and i was i didn't go to every event last year i probably went to i'd say less than 30% of events that would usually go to last year um and then you know specific ones that i want to still keep long-term relationships with obviously i'm going to go there and now obviously certain partners like did you store or you brought up i've known you know the CEO of did you store us for a very long time he's just like a really close friend of mine so it's like for me it's like i want to try and bring him as much value as i possibly can and in exchange it's like i don't even ask for anything really it's like i'll send them you know supplement clients or affiliate offers all the time so go put this in the platform and we'll run offers for their clients in the platform everything else and in exchange they invite me to come hang out do things like twerling right and obviously in those environments i get to hang out with the cool people that i may not get to meet in the us a lot of times being that it's in europe so going there and actually learning from people that are out there what the hell they're doing what's going on there so that's kind of my choice um this year i'm going to travel a lot more than last year but i'm going to be doing very unique things that most people aren't doing in our industry which people will start to see all right little thieves are there yeah come to japan yeah that's already quite a unique how many internet bros have done that yeah not in europe is becoming a little bit more popular to go to japan i think in the us in canada it's not as much no and it's like to even get into some of these rooms it's like you really have to have a good network oh no i just was talking like generally speaking about japan it's it's starting to become more and more um it's i guess because the culture japanese culture sushi culture that whole thing is being so big so now people are starting to go down that route living in Vancouver we have the second best sushi in the world outside of japan and i will put anyone to battle on that literally um for me it's like i've always wanted to go to japan me my brother i've talked about it since we were kids ago to japan it's like been one of my top countries and then for me it was like i'm either going with my brother or i'm going to go and have an experience and this time i'm gonna have an experience and also see if my brother can join god for how long have you gone a week we got too short yeah do i have a tylan last year in December and for four and a half days i mean tylan is tylan but everybody that i talk to like also a bunch of guys that i know that are retired and like yeah i want to go to japan but i need to go for at least a month you know like but the thing is you can't do that i can't do that one i'm not and then too i'm not doing it as a vacation right like i'm mainly going for it is yes i'll get to go and snowboard and ski and do all that stuff with a bunch of fun people but i'm going there for a reason which is a business right like given when i went to bank uh bank car class for four and a half days like who the hell flies i'm yearning to buy and flew 24 hours here to come to Dubai for five and a half days yeah right and then i want to try and squeeze as much as i can in that time so that i can get back to doing what i do on a daily basis yeah that makes sense all right you should still go for a month when you uh sell your business but let's talk about it later because you just mentioned mentors yeah do you still have like people that you would call a mentor at this moment or is it more like he's just meet a lot of people you talk to a lot of people um i have specific mentors um that are there you know one of my mentors now has started to learn one of my best friends and he sits in the board of my company and anything that i any and he's got insane amount of experience in the business world he worked for two the biggest private equity companies in the past um so he's done a lot and like that's kind of the person that i really look up to now in terms of business side yeah on the personal side one of my mentors that i've learned a lot from and studied a lot from his guy by the name of dr john de martini um so i've studied a lot of his stuff and if i ever run into some sort of personal crisis i'll usually book a couple hours with them one on one when i need it um and then i do have coaches that i work with on a weekly basis that just kind of keep me sane from being as crazy as i usually am got it and back in a day like three to five years where you're still actively learning from business mentors oh yeah quite a bit yeah there was a there was a pre there was a pre period in my life from 2018 to probably about 2021 i was very actively investing in mentors uh i think you always should and but now being in the situation and the fortunate situation that i am is like i get to work with a lot of good business owners that i've done big shit and i just learned my proxy by working with them yeah exactly yeah that's why i'm like when i'm listening to your numbers i'm like none of the gurus or mentors is doing like spending four million a month on ads right so i don't even talk about it yeah i mean if you follow me on Instagram it's like i barely even talk about what it's like no no yeah that's why i'm here to ask you all the numbers yeah for me it's like i have a new north star now you know before it was like oh you need to spend a million a month on ads but then i'll listen to you i'm like okay it's four million for one client yeah i know i get it but it's just i mean i always feel like if if someone else can do it and i can do it because it's easier to do it and do it and try to figure it out i wonder if it happens or not that's a different question but at least now you put the benchmark yeah it's not like well for me for me it's like when i saw you know when i found out what the guy the peptide guy is just spending a 21 million a month on google exactly i'm like that is my new north star yeah right like it's just like there's levels to this shit every time we go and it's just like let's figure this out for me it's four million twenty one i don't even know how to get there but the four million is at least doable so that's funny that's are you mentoring people right now yourself um i i get asked a lot about it i get asked to say on boards of companies are like kind of take take some equity my company and consult me whatever and or pay you a retainer and do whatever i didn't do it for the last few years just because i'll my my entire thing was i want to be singularly focused and i'm still very singularly focused um but it's become such a need and i think just because of where the economy is and i've been fortunate that i came from and i got to see the 2008 recession and kind of came and saw the crazy rise and you know seeing what's going on now um i've decided now that i've started to open up kind of mentoring people one-on-one kind of coaching people whether it's just in their business or whether it's specifically in their offers or kind of what it comes down to i'm very selective on who i work with because it's like at the end of the day i work very fast um so it's like if i tell you something and i want you to work on it it's like i don't want a month i want to see action pretty much within a week right like that's kind of something that it comes down to like some of the people that consult us on our company they're like mind blown like one of the things that one of our consultants did for us and literally within 24 hours what he told us to do i'd already had it fully implemented my team right that's the kind of pace because at the end of the day we work in the world where it's like things are moving so fast that if you aren't willing to work fast i don't want to work with you yeah i mean you're just not gonna make it or you're not gonna reach your potential yeah that's always i always like my biggest lesson every year it's like i could have done it so much faster yeah if it was you've done this this isn't this but it's like don't look don't look back at what could have is like what did you do and find the benefit of what you did right no yeah of course not i don't mean it in a bad way i'm just saying like you just realize how much more efficiency there still is to gain yeah and how much and how much and then it's funny because like that's kind of my thought this year for myself right was okay going into last year we were pretty kind of call it slow um in normal years but i was like okay if that last year was slow for me i know where we were and what we're capable of doing i'm like okay how much more can i push myself this year right like in the sense of like how hard can we go and we have some pretty wildgoals and to pull that off it's going to require a whole different gear from yes to do that like that's kind of where i'm gonna see it either i'm gonna get it there or i'm gonna burn out at some point like one of the two exactly but that's exactly what i was trying to say it might have sounded a bit negative but i meant it like you're just and you see other people like what you mentioned they are spending 21 million a month like how many creatives are they producing right crazy it's like this is a different level of speed and volume yeah oh damn like there's yeah another level so it's so you can still and then the biggest thing is most time which is mentioned you can do it faster yeah you can do more in the same time anyways you just mentioned that you have some big goals i don't know what you exactly are okay with sharing but you're one of your goals is to exit your agency at some point right yeah can you share a bit more yeah in general in general yeah i've had a few offers um over the last four years to sell the company um i could have taken them had a good payday had a good life all that good stuff but i wanted to do it in a way where it's like am i going to build and this is where one of my mentors are to talk about his name is Nick Bradley who's literally one of my best friends now and he used to work for blackstone and uh providence uh private equity and i was just okay i built the company which is a pretty fun cool company and completely i call it by accident i love the fact that it's built by accident but it's like i don't know what i don't know right like that's kind of something that i want to learn and part of the things was when we made a decision last year was you know we sat down and every year we do a beginning of the year board meeting and then we do a quarterly catch up with our board and the beginning of your board meeting was let's take a step back or two steps back to go five to ten steps forward um and that was a decision for us to slow down rebuild and go from there and now we've built everything internally as an organization that if someone came and made an offer tomorrow by us um we would probably get paid more money than what i even got back in the day for the offers because of how private equity looks at companies you know and that was the part of the reason is to want i didn't want to take the exit back in the day was because of that and two is like is this is what i built duplicatable i don't know i want to be able to build something that i can duplicate it into other processes which now i've learned so much implemented so much and done for so many people which is why i go back to your question i'm confident today that if i go coach someone i know i can get them a result yeah so what you're doing right now is just building your company in situate it's even easier to sell yeah i it may not sell at this point in time i'll be completely honest with you i could because now the goal for me but essentially by the end of this year is to step down and CEO of the company yeah um and to have it just automated just run and i do what my crazy self does and just business development network do that whole thing then that way i'm a lot less away from the day today yeah um and if it turns into a company because this company is out there that you know just last the test the time and just kind of innovate and keep going um if the company sells in the next two to three years great if it doesn't sell and it just you know turns into just a company in my portfolio which is what i'm looking at building now versus building to sell we're just still the the goal um but we're not attached to the goal of selling anymore got it but you're still putting all the process and systems in place to be able to show you to be able to sell correct do you have someone right now that's advising you on how to structure everything so you will be able to show yeah that's what next next next next next entire job next entire job he comes from M&A he used to be the CMO of getting images uh at uh he did all of the M&A uh a bunch of M&A for Providence private equity and then also worked and exit he's a three billion dollar exits and he's done over 120 mergers and acquisitions this day got it so the next step would be to find the CEO at some point we already have so my current CEO uh that is in my company right now the entire transition plan was to come in fix operations because his background comes from running and being operations at horizon media at Zimmerman and a bunch of other big big big big multinational agencies in the US so he came and brought his operations experience operating it's we built a whole team now with all of his experience once that's fully running and humming he's going to step into CEO and i'm going to step down got it what's also interesting what you keep mentioning is like you you also connected people outside of the info space or the e-commerce space or the supplement space how are you connecting with all these more like traditional businesses uh yeah from private equity to yeah a lot of it's just kind of going and hanging out with the right places really uh or people now it's just making choice for people to be honest with you it's like i'm not actively looking uh by any means it's not like i have it just kind of happens like hey you should jump on a call with so-and-so personally do xyz in this business um like i jumped on with a with a guy three four weeks ago on a call and he's literally buying three to five HVAC companies a week right now right crazy and HVAC you said yeah like HVAC companies a week and just doing this massive roll-up he's building that entire thing to sell yeah um but he's not in the info space he's not in the e-commerce space he's not in the world that i'm working in uh buddy just a cool dude it's doing what he's doing right and you know where we've acquired two agencies at this point in time we're looking to probably acquire another four this year's our goal um so it's like i think that's where the conversation where someone the person that connected us is like hey he's doing acquisitions you wanted you're getting more into acquisitions you guys should connect and that's kind of how the the call it networking is happening got it so you want to buy four more this year um how many do you buy in the last three four years uh well two we bought one and then two we acquired so essentially we just rolled in their team and then gave them a job got it interesting yeah i think we just talked about where you want to go so we're almost at the end of the broadcast but before that i want to ask you a question because what and if i would have to say it in a scammy internet marketing way what's the secret to you know building a name for yourself and internet marketing industry without like burning all your reputations and fucking everybody over because there's a lot of there's a lot of that crazy stuff going on how do you navigate those waters um just don't be a douchebag it's the simplest way i can call it right do what you say you're going to do and if you don't do it take responsibility yeah and we fund them apologize whatever because at the end of the day and we start we're having lunch just like you know we talk both of us have the same thing it's like not every single one of my clients hit right it's like i that's impossible it's an it's an infactuation by any means for anyone to have but the relationship you keep with that client long term will pay you more dividends and anything else because you even if you didn't end up things just didn't work out sometimes their team doesn't listen to you or add whatever add account goes down like whatever unforeseen circumstance of the offer just doesn't work just keep the relationship because at the end of the day business comes business goes relationships last forever yeah and part of the reason why i have such strong relationships in this industry is because i will do things for most people to help them out before i even ever expect a dollar in exchange god and also you're not overpromising that yeah you mentioned yeah so you're kind of like more like i'm very black and white very black and white on a call right and like whether it's me consulting a company whether it's uh whether it's somewhere wanting to become become a client of ours at Garavits this is what you should expect yeah but if you have any sort of expectations outside of that we're probably not a good fit right and and i put it because you know best case scenario was case scenario where we should probably end up yeah right and then kind of in that world and as long as you're okay with it go for it and you know my gum very straight up with clients is like if you're not if you because when people come to agency specifically they want to come to agencies and essentially say here you go it's your responsibility figured out yeah but they don't realize that you're they're hiring you for an expertise in one division of their entire company right so they are equally just as responsible to meet you in the middle for whatever the hell they're hiring you for but let you do what they're paying you to do that's where i think a lot of the issue that happens in the info space is like people want to come in hire an agency but then still tell them what to do why the fact did you hire me in the first place so but that's where a lot of info brands burn themselves words like i'm so black and white that it's like i may say things that may upset you but i'm doing it because i care about you and your business and if you can't respect that boundary then we should probably not work together god and you also mentioned that you're also explaining the downsides career like is that something you always did or because i see that's more of a trend where people before it was always like everybody can make 10k a month right and now it's shifting a little bit worse to like hey these and these and these people can make let's say 10k a month but if you're like this and this and this it might not work for you and it's the same then in agency deals i always did it i was always like yeah you know so we need to spend this much so worst case scenario if it doesn't work this is what you lose but this is what you can gain is that always something you have been doing i've always been that way yeah i've always been that way you know there's certain situations and guilty for it as well and when i say always it's like you know within 70 to 80% accuracy at the time but it's like there's times when you get infactuated with certain things like this deal with fucking crush you see yourself right like this deal with crush and then you're like you take it on and you don't realize how much more shit show the back end is or the corporations are and then all of a sudden now you're responsible for front end and they're they can't handle everything else and the whole thing just implodes on itself so i'm making a very very big conscious effort like even with myself today it's like when i q a calls i'm like we're very black and white you want what's the result you want are you willing to do xy and z to get that result because if you aren't willing to do that we can't help you yeah if you are willing to do that we can help you yeah if you don't want to record videos you're not gonna make a million more no all right i think that's a great quote to end with yeah thanks for being here man thanks for having me cool sweet peace