How Promptwatch Crashed Reddit's Stock by 10%

Class welcome to the podcast guys thanks to things rather me this is first. Yeah, so we're here with class and with Gog and gochua. Gog and this is your fourth time on the show. Wow I'm I'm hype for this. I'm class you know what's kind of crazy about you is your software took down Reddit stuff Very recently. Yeah, that's a good way to start. Yeah, that was that was a nice explosive thing I didn't anticipate happening to be fair like it wouldn't have expected to be that much of an impact, but yeah it was something I think a month ago now like It was basically a report. I I mean always do these data reports where I'm like, okay Let's see what what kind of like sources PC what not how often I just saw a big decline Simply shared it. I think it took well, so can you can you sorry? Can you before we even go there? Can you introduce yourself and and or to watch? So people even understand like what even took down Yeah, so class and the go founder and CTO of from watch and from watch is basically a platform for Geo don't fight me But based the AI search optimization So what we do is we analyze a lot of problems. We analyze crawl logs We analyze analytics to give you a good like overview of how you show up in these AI Search responses. That's basically all we do We started six seven months ago As you know the space is super hot. We now have like 500 competitors. I think they show up every day For a good reason because it's very Well, I don't know how topic but companies really struggle with this and they want to have insights and what's going on So basically that's how we started we were quite early, which was good for us and we invested heavily in products So we are one of the few platforms that can actually track like real LGBT responses So we have the shopping data the citations. We have that. We also Invested very heavily in crawler logs. So that's a kind of like a product where we analyze actual citations and when change of these creates your website when clock visits your we track all that stuff Um, and basically bring it all together in like one big platform gives you a good idea like how do I rank what kind of content gets mentioned and and bring it all together that's like good like comprehensive overview of like Where do where am I and what can I do to improve it? That's pretty cool that you're at that you're so you're actually like seeing AI bots crawl your own site and then using that to inform your Your AI is exactly so so the idea behind that was like a few things like sadly Uh, they don't run a JavaScript. So normally you would we could track them with just normal analytics We have a good idea of like okay, you're uh, this bot just visited your page and cool Now they since it don't run the JavaScript, we cannot track that so we had to go on our way around So we now integrate mostly on CDN level. So we have cloud flare for cell Uh, fastly akamai all these integrations we build ourselves to to to analyze those logs Uh, and I mean For years no one cared about them because it was like google indexes my website good. I'm happy, right? So I don't really care about the other bots and sometimes you saw that it's but no one really cared about it And now it's like oh, I want to know When change everything goes where but pages getting index Uh, funny side and I was like also like they make up pages. We see this happen a lot Where we see a 404s and marketing teams Uh, we didn't even anticipate this feature with marketing teams were like okay, we see these 404s We want to export them and start writing content on those pages. I'm like, oh, that's pretty smart If you think about it because like yeah, opportunity apparently you get citations for a page that does make sense to have We don't have it. We see 404s. Let's write those pages and rank for them immediately because they're already in the month apparently so That's where the crawls came from which was like a crazy big feature and now we're basically overlaying that with your analytics To say okay, you get these many citations You get these many clicks so we can start doing clicks through rates. We can start doing a lot of insights Uh, we analyze pages. I think I got you you you you you you are doing something similar with indexing the semantics of pages on large scale Creating a factor cluster to figure out what topics you're ranking for and what not and basically we bring that to uh to the market So that's like the next level we're working on right now Okay, the next up as well and uh before we get into the reddit story because such an interesting story What were you I'm curious what were you doing uh, so seven you started this seven months ago What were you doing? I've always been uh developer first of all so I've been like Working as a developer did a lot of SEO on the side. I think every developer that does side projects Ends up doing SEO because you have to yeah, but a lot of developers are terrible I think I find it like the night one of the nice thing because it's basically even if you don't know what you're doing is like make a nice clean structured Fast website and you're really like it's already like Oh wait man, I mean we've all you both of you have probably experienced this the amount of developers who don't Who who don't you server side rendering is like is staggering? Yeah, the amount of devs who don't know how to do who don't know what to do that Not even how to do that just to do that in the first place Yeah, but it's a way like when I started as a software developer like to engineer It was very normal to like static page and everything was statically rendered and then SBAs react the angular everything game and we all went back to lie. Okay. I mean I mean Client side running has a place or platform the dashboard itself is an SBA is it make no sense to server side renderer. There's no Yeah, sure it's an app. You mean like it's an actual app. Yeah, but then the pages of like learning page all like static There's a heavily cash with cloudflare they're saved. They're like I wouldn't be fast and snappy and and I think if you if you also in general I always like SEO because like basically optimizing content for robots and like okay if I if you can crawl it fast Then like Google is like this nice because I can just like reach your content and it's fast It doesn't cost me anything or very little to index it so you really quickly start learning how to optimize pressure And I think that if you do that right. I'm also surprised how many people like the basics of like an h1 and h2 Content loading images like having that optimized like it's like the basic stuff And it's always surprising how few like Team so not even doing that if yeah, yeah, so it's yeah Yeah, man, that is that's so accurate. All right, so okay, so as you were like like like like think of these SEO and you are a developer like like what moment You you went like oh there is a market of opportunity where I should just get it prompt watch.com and to start my tool Like where does that click happened like? I checked it out actually the first commit from prompt watch was a year ago exactly like this week a year ago Because I build for myself I have like a home restaurant which is like a little like side thing It's like a real set platform for second homes in Europe So if you look for a home in Spain or Norway, you you'll find that Has some semi success. It's not super big But it's like nice enough to play with and like you you haven't run it and a friend of mine on an x was like a ball He was like hey, I'm looking for a home in in in Greece. I asked jgbt right because we're like nerds. We asked jgbt and And your website keeps showing up and I'm like man, he's like how do you do that? I have no idea. It's lucky And that's where the idea was born there was like Where really so investing more in it because I remember two two years ago Peter levels made a post about like optimizing for and I was like I found a comment that I also reacted on it and he was like oh too many people will do this Too many people will build something to solve this. I'm like he's right. It's almost right. It's but but he definitely It was a good but I think if you started last year the clicks were like they're not too much There was not too much going on but really when the citation started when it really started driving traffic That's when things changed and what I noticed is like my co-founder and I we worked in a different started before and and we started Getting traffic but not necessarily only traffic But like we asked he asked people like where do you find us right? How do you how did you find us? How do you hear about about a company and it was a lot of the time it was simply like hbt Well, okay, so you asked for like yeah, you asked for like the best this or option the solution for that And you guys showed up and I typed in Google or your website or clicked and found you guys So we quickly realized that we ignored the clicks a little bit like we were like driving like it's like 50 clicks here for like the value is like the amount of clicks was low But the amount of people saying they found us through it that became higher and higher and that was where we really where we started focusing on and basically we made a landing page. We had like our previous company got got sold and um Highson hour go for an hour. We were like well, let's see if we what should we do like after I told them like if this idea ready I'm playing with this and it makes sense We made the landing page and like the inbound was crazy So we're like okay. We are cleaning up the only one. I think that's also a bit around the hype in this mark I mean everyone is like a lot of like on or so much hype and it makes sense to have this hype right yeah show clearly companies are like this Make we want to first of all we want to see how do we show up? It's very like very basic but also I think like like like okay, how to optimize and like all these things like no Businesses doubting Google or anything. I was like over and stopped Optimizing for Google. No, it's doing that. But they're like we want to see how we show up in all these models And that basically from there was just like going crazy like from big banks to small startups to everything like I think we now have like I think it's like 210 million citations and clicks we spread from chat. You know these other models Thanks to our claw claw logs and our analytics so we We invested heavily in that very early So now we have one of the biggest data sets on that so yeah, it's Basically from there. I'm not smooth sailing. Not at all. It's hard work But it was really like yeah, the market pool was very big. That's just For sure. Yeah, and also like I just wanted to ask you like like why you're building out of Europe Good question. Good question. Why? Why not just move to California or New York, you know um Good question. Well first of all, I have a family here. That's one thing now. I think that um It's it's I Wouldn't be surprised if in like a year we have an office in the US wouldn't surprise me at all to be completely fair Uh, but we have investors here. We raise some money here We have a lot of customers also here. So that's a big benefit Europe is a hard market to sell to Uh, you know how many how much experience you guys have with the the European market It's just a very refractive market like people are said. Oh, we're gonna do this for Europe like good luck But to be fair, I think like a big chunk of our customers are already US-based. So it's It's always I think every started is that like we're gonna focus in Europe and then most of our customers are US Yeah, this method of marketing is so effective. I had to make sure it wasn't against Google's rules before I kept doing it It's a form of SEO. I call compact keywords Whereas most SEO focuses on putting up articles to answer questions. How what when compact keywords focuses on putting up dozens of pages that sell to searchers Who are actually looking to buy these pages rank on google and convert so much better than normal that when I discovered this years ago I couldn't believe this was allowed. It's less work too the average compact keywords pages only 115 words compact keywords is a 13-hour deep course on getting sales with SEO a customer recently said Each lesson is dense with information. You're giving years worth of experience boil down into 15 to 30 minute lessons with no filler or fluff I feel like I'm gaining a new superpower Compact keywords is about setting up an SEO funnel that brings you sales for years and years and years It works with AI. It's less work than traditional SEO and it makes way more money You can get it now at compact keywords.com back to the podcast And so I want to go back I want to go back to this reddit story because this was crazy you took down The the stock price of reddit by what what do you remember what percent it was? I think the dog was like Dan or something. It was a lot. Yeah, it was a lot of percentage This was not my intention by the way. I didn't if I knew it had this machine In fact, I would have made money. All right, so you dropped the stock you drew I wanted to say this I wanted to see this this right here You dropped the stock of reddit by 10% and it was not it was not your intention It was no no no and it because I remember reading about it on seeking alpha and It okay, so yeah, I'll let you share what happened. It was quite easy actually the It's a bit of complex like we analyze the data. We make some overview I make these reports. I was like, oh, I think we even talked about it before It was like I think I almost like really push me like you should make these reports You know if all this data I'm like yeah, I should do yeah, so actually it's your fault and So I think in this chart it's without lying on a Friday night. I think it One in the in the in the night I made that chart Like this is what I do in my weekend for Friday nights Uh, I made the chart basically just like I collected the data made the thing I was like okay cool when I was um, I think you can even see it on my twitter and it's like oh I made the I shared it the screenshot and the chart the chart said the chart said what based on the chart was just like you see all these citations Oh, I'm echoing somewhere. I think it'd be smart. No, it's fine. You sound like you sound like You you made all the citations like the top source of YouTube From from YouTube to LinkedIn to like what what kind of like social media has impact on the chat. You what shows up, right? What is the And what social media is showing up on chat GPT exactly so so so and then you saw reddit and then straight away like just like a big like it's still like the biggest redboard huge drop Yeah, but yeah, it was just a massive massive drop and look also beautiful where it's like Yeah, even I saw the even I saw the graph. I think it was 11.30 p.m. uh in Melbourne And I was just about to go to sleep and then I said tweet and I like uh I also like tweeted it and wrote that that already has gone from me I moored and I also reached from chat GPT and like when I woke up in the morning at like 6.30 and my team member has all already sent me the message that Did you look at the uh at the stock and I was like what the fuck Happened in like just like eight hours, you know, like or something Yeah, it was it's like well, it's not the the I posted it a week earlier and a week later it got picked up. I think I don't know who it was I have to check out the name from that you share you shared it and that that post really went viral then I was so happy I did the The prom watch logo in the charts like the watermark. Yeah That was a good investment and I remember here was a Wednesday. I think My my we are suddenly were the huge fights in traffic. We're like what's going on Like did we ever email campaigns because some of them she could uh in a In a newsletter or somewhere and we're like where's this traffic coming from but what's going on? And then slowly the articles started coming in and like oh yeah who financed and oh oh oh oh this is oh this is us oh shit This is big Yeah, it became bigger and bigger and And also just it was a lot of fun also just for viewers like uh because of just this one thing The prom watch ended up getting like like so many backlinks from all these like really high value domains So it it's almost like you ran like maybe 10k usd a digital PR campaign for free By one post it wasn't really good deal and To clarify we had a big problem with our domain name for a while We bought promwatch.com and clearly was sandboxed in some way at Google Which was terrible because we did everything right. We reached out. I was like why doesn't it show up And we even bought the the iO domain for someone else for a lot of money And it didn't show up which is very annoying because you do everything right But it's like okay clearly it's a sandbox and don't want to tell you anything only after that all that uh PR and all those links then finally showed up and we're like oh god It was like because of course it's like terrible when your business doesn't show up in google Do you know that especially if you're it's in your space but we know We knew why it wasn't showing but it's like so annoying and they're like okay now off we're getting Wall Street Journal backlinks. We're good. That's the trick Yeah So you're saying that prompt watch wasn't showing up for branded searches for six months very very The funny thing was we did show up in bing our domain name because we bought we bought an existing domain Right it was parked everything but like we Uh it showed up in bing so we did show up in chatgbt which was fun because we of course the stage like uh They used being as the search index Uh, but then google was like we tied in prompt watch wouldn't show up. I know Then there was an old company that used prompt watch IO Uh, they you know really quit so we bought that domain for me and we was like wow that's kind of solve everything right no more doubt Google still was like no Only after we got the PR campaign Basically was like okay now it's like google finally like okay this looks good enough It was terrible And you have no idea why you weren't The finally I've asked like many SEO experts like hey take a look and it was crazy how It was all pointing to each other like oh, we don't know like And basically what I think happened is that the domain was parked so what it makes sense is it can take a little time Of course to to get some authority But I what I found in the internet archives that five years ago or something there was someone running some website shady on it I think that was simply it where it was like in the index it was like there's some flags They don't show you these things. They don't warn you anywhere. You have to just like hope for the best So it took us like I think like four months to show up That was crazy like so we solved this by the way about just running Google ads Just like have read read it at so we managed to solve it that way but was like super annoying like so like oh my god Like for even for like that we don't show up like the domain was indexed like if you did the side point it was in the just not for that So So we mean so you ran ass and that fixed it and then then you temporarily fixed to at least like show up under your own brand name ride So that uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah, and then you started showing up for a lot more terms. Yeah, and also so what we're going to finally be we The clearly was like good enough signal for Google to say okay, now this this looks really legit like the backlinks you're getting and everything so then we Uh, basically just like boom position one I'll find but there was a lot of like stress That was a lot of like oh god Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and uh so what's the status with what to read it the the What it was specifically was because I till actually it's funny because I made some viral videos about this as well I got I because I put this up on on Instagram and tiktok and I got millions of you sharing this and uh yeah And so I so I remember because read it went down. I think it was uh it was around like what 12% in you in in chachi pt citations and then it went down just spiked down from 12% to 1 to 2% And it hovered around 1 to 2% and that's what took the stock down 10% Um, and so my question is is it back It's not back at all from the previous highs, but what we do see is that it's still on the primary sources sample is that also people ask the uh ask us a lot like especially reddit agencies that they popped up everywhere Of course the past year because like well, it makes sense and basically our answers like it's still the primary source also AI overviews Still one of the primary sources, but I think that what happened is that the In the weeks leading up to it, I saw some responses which were like the even contains quotes from reddit like reddit comments In the chat with your response was like hey this user says the good product like it was like You could have like 10 different reddit posts in a single response I think it was simply also just over the top like it was just crazy at that point And I think they I don't know is any wider change it because let's be real like stem album. It's like the he owns part of reddit So the the relationship there is very clear, right? It's not some some some oh we we you just scraped it or something There's a clear relationship between these companies. So I don't think it will ever go away and it's also I think in general yes platforms are very If you think about like sources and citations to go a bit more into death like how the lm's get data Um having a website is like nice, but I can put anything on my website where it's in reddit Of course you have a little bit of moderation It can be played and it but it is being played But at least there's some form of like if a post goes viral there are people actually making it go viral And I think that's yet that makes a lot of sense, right? So I don't I don't think So you don't think a lot of people thought it was the removal of the num equals 100 parameter That had something to do with it because it was around the same time it's it's being being Pointed out a lot a lot of people pointed out like because you can clearly see I was in the report was like the amount of citations Uh and and and that went definitely down, but not crazy like total amount of citations you get in response, right? So basically I take all the responses I get where the web search is triggered And I said okay count like how many citations these actually have Uh and the number you clearly see from what we went from 12 To like six. So it's less. I think that was clearly like okay the the the num the num 100 is gone Um, but I don't I don't think the exact point was the same as the reddit one from the top of my head It was around the same but you're saying was like it was exactly exact date I think it was like one or two days later But I also think that keep my mind that the charge shows the like the average amount Uh, so it's also like we went from like Sometimes 10 reddit posts in a single response to just like one or two So it's like it's been from from crazy to like a normal amount So I think that's also a big part of it like where it's just like okay for the users is a little bit more normal I do think they have access to it It is it is so it's crazy because Goggin say you're like make that chart and then Yeah, then the chart goes so viral and then Goggin you send me the chart And you're like Edward make content on this and I make content on it. We got millions of views Yeah, meanwhile reddit is going ballistic All right, anyway, Goggin you sent me like 10 amazing questions before this Do you want do you want to ask any of them? Oh, all right, so let's start with the first one like what do you think of geo as it uh, I honestly don't care that much about Um, I think it's good to have a term that's like oh, this is different. So that's nice I mean, we also lead with it like the geo and My personal opinion people ask me is like okay, it will be geo now. It will be a i sio in six months, and then it will be sio All sio all search will become a i search in some form that's going to happen It's the reality of it and I think that the sio term probably will be the big term in the end which is fine I don't honestly I don't really care about like the naming of things Yes, sure. I think like like whenever anyone is coming to me like I talk with a lot of people every day and some people are like it's a I search optimization somewhere like it's geo somewhere saying that it's Answering your optimization aio And I just tell them that what you need to focus on is is what is different than sio Like we have sio right now, and if you want to show up in chat GPT or anything else, then you need to Focus primarily on what additionally you can do on top of like whatever sio you are doing And I think that's where where prompt watch comes in with with all the data and information points which you can use To guide you a content strategy and build on top of you To clarify it's like Because sometimes I hear people say like oh sio is that or whatever, but also like change or strategy And I would say like do the sio you're doing if you're doing well Just keep doing that right don't don't like Fast website well structured good content. It's very like Basic but do that keep doing build backlinks all these things keep doing it What we see just happening like the top of the funnel content that is consumed now on chat GPT. That's changing cool Social media bigger impact than before cool part of it like that The if you see that like a funnel like if you're sio This is just changing the top here. This is where we play primarily now I will probably go more and more mix and become part of each other, but like it's You'd need to do good sio anyway keep doing that. It's just like layers and changes on top of that. It's fine like it's Yeah, so you don't think there's a huge difference between doing sio for normal search engines for additional search engines and I don't think there's there's there's definitely differences like right so so the way content that gets consumed the way Change GPT picks out the articles is kind of side the way that there's suddenly there's training data and there's like inference that is from the search coming in so Change GPT has like based knowledge around topics and brands already and so there's definitely Changes big changes in like how it gets consumed and presented to the user and context Transition these things. Yeah, these these change, but I I don't think that anything you're doing for sio is going to hurt showing up in right? That's just yeah But I will like what do you do extra things for AI physics? So I think that in general what we see now is a lot of like offside So external sources as in like social media. Just video is suddenly becoming very big like I think like I overviews now side Time stamp today YouTube videos Go right this and that's something like very like a big opportunity Yeah, but but but to your to your earlier point Very literally YouTube is the number one most clicked website within traditional search. Yeah, literally literally the number one most click website within traditional search I think of where the tools like prompt watch committee is identifying the gap So if you're building as your strategy like like you just run the queries on google and see like what competitors are doing With tools like prompt watch you can just like get a quick overview of like What the prompt is what the answer is what the citations are and just based upon that you can run a comparison that Oh chat GPT is recommending this brand and it's saying that it's coming from a YouTube video where someone has reviewed their product So probably it's a good idea that you also get get that person or someone else on YouTube to review your product as well So it's a bit only the actual ability because it depends also given my per brand like if you do e-commerce You see like customer reviews. Those are like the main thing if you do like big banks or suddenly is a way more content heavy So it's like it really changes pair like kind of like type of company or product you're selling from where do you show up That's also that's always like a big like factor and like what should be your strategy But I think the general like it's always been good to do everything in marketing well it makes sense right but now we see those Influences changing and that's more interesting because If you look at like 10 years ago it was like you had the right articles you rank It was not that hard like it was not magic at the backlinks the articles the content it matched it gave answer good enough Now you get these I think everyone's like posted on topics a lot And I see the bit more like semantics and like Factor search. I think that's going to be the most interesting one Context like what is actually being said on an article about you have more insights in that and I think that that is Also a little bit the bet. I think most AI search companies are now making like now It's a lot like the search index is like usually Google or or being but what if they're going to be more of them That's going to be really interesting. I think at least Yeah, I think I still like even in the future there will be some index that these guys going to use because Dejan SEO like he wrote an article saying that You can't more make models to have sort of like their internal memory You can't have like all the world's information in there It just makes them inefficient. So you better have a model which is really good in using tools So you give it tools like a web browser. You give it tools like and search index or something like that And it works really well. So I think even in the future they will for sure be an index which will be used to pull in 100% that's and that's the That's the way I mean search will keep working for for now if you don't know in 10 15 years Say anything on that, but I mean you need a search index to to basically have to call into What is what I've from from a technical perspective find interesting is that you can now see people making large Search indexes themselves because not many people talk about this, but like because of factor search because of like All the new technologies available suddenly what Google did 20 years ago is now kind of accessible for you and I And that's really interesting because you see all these companies popping up like xan Even fire crawls starting to try to build their own indexes And then you have like cursor using xat to search to web. I'm like oh this gets interesting now But if xat is becoming a search index and I'm using cursor to write code And I'm selling dev tools so you get where I'm going Things become more interesting because you have all these like different indexes showing up and what if TikTok makes his own search indexes at some point Because it's not me not that complicated anymore and Gen C is now searching So I think that's the big the big bad we are making at some point where like okay this fragmentation will continue And you need the Google always had like this this click data everything to make the perfect index All the perfect in this bit with like the best one the biggest one And what if other companies are starting to do this? I think that that to me is like really interesting like this fragmentation. I really like that Yeah, that's why some people are talking about like SEO is the search Everywhere optimization like you got to be everywhere Because what will happen over time is like Instagram will see that oh we got all these LLM's like now It's really easy to rank all these posts and reals that we have We can just build our own stuff, you know like wire rely on Google or Also like thinking a bit further ahead of like okay now everyone is trying to build the browser everyone is trying to do so I think that we are really at like stage one of what we expect the market to do The reason we build our own analytics suite we know agents and users are going to be a massive thing Not today they're clunky. Let's be honest. They don't work yet But then you see Google AI model with the ideas of like hey just go off and buy me or find me concert tickets Who's tracking the analytics on like this interaction am I optimizing for these things are like Very thin now and very like early, but we can all like see this going to happen like I'm not going to find 10 websites and see Who has available tickets and just like here Google find this for me and that's going to be very interesting I think and also like optimizing for that and tracking that that's basically yeah Yeah, what do you think of like optimizing specifically for chat GPT and then like AI mode like is there any difference or you should be like Having two strategies what is um It's a good question like oh my specifically. I do notice that I think that the benefit from Google is that they have to search index of the data already In their it's already crawled. They have that. It's cash to store So so I wouldn't like really change anything you do for that like I would definitely focus on semantics like make sure that I don't know the topic Plus string everything is like really correct um, but for for what's interesting for chat GPT what we're seeing now And it just returned that the query fan outs are live again, so you can extract that they're very exact match Search terms I started collecting them this week again because I saw that they replaced it a little bit of a lot of position That's pretty interesting to see how they Are very simple in that sense. So I think that there's definitely opportunity to make right articles on those topics I don't think it's a very sustainable way by the way to do that for the next coming years But it's I think it's also in general my view on the SEO space like I understand that some things will not be around For the next five years, but sometimes you want to have results today for the next few months You know it's not going to scare Indefinitely, but it's it's going to be fine the same with the reddit thing where people like wow It's it will never be the main source forever like no probably not But for now it will be let's enjoy the ride and like group with that and see if you can have some opportunities there Yeah Yeah, even even recently in the earning calls for a Reddit CEO he said that 50% of their traffic is coming from Google so That was I think maybe like one or two years back before Google did this content sharing deal with reddit It was not like getting that much traffic from From Google and now it's like 50% of their overall traffic is coming from Yeah, I think it's too too much to be fair I'm but I'm like I'm I love using reddit. I've been using it for like 10-15 years I was like something to be fair like some subreddit read sometimes But yeah, it's I think every all agreed it's a bit like overpowered in the search and it shouldn't be like that I kind of like missed like finally good websites on Google. That's the sad thing We're like just good sources Yeah, even the reddit Traffic suddenly increasing over over a period of time and I give this example to like like people who who talk to me about like What they should be buying So let's say if a customer is coming to you Do you think that it's right to buy a monthly subscription or you want to have A large enough data set for a long period of time like a yearly license because what I'm doing right now is like I'm just telling that if you want to invest on any AI visibility tracker You should be looking at spending that amount for at least a year because that will give you a long enough Time frame and large enough data set to actually see that okay last three months this Then you can like make your decisions and whatever or changes that you need to do in your marketing strategy Like what do you think of Investing in the tool for the whole year or was this like just trying it out for a couple of months and seeing like we're thinking so Most of the customers like what we do with platforms are collecting a lot of data and The the the beauty or the changes What has changed a lot With traditional SEO is like an h-trash or a semi-rush they have a keyword database, right? So Great they so I can I can start today and I can see results in the data right that's that's because they've already collected the keywords Post of the stuff is already there cool and you paid them access to that you pay them to have access to the data What's changing now is that the crawler locks no one has access to them or the analytics they never collected them The problems the topics you were so it's really like you move everything from from this big database to your own side So that's where most actually larger companies they just just collect a lot of sources Uh over time and they can see really see these correlations as I really start seeing improvements and also like We indexed the entire website so you have a way more insights and what's okay? What's what's working? What's not and I think in general like you want like we will see this in all tooling it will be way more In the website itself like on the on the customer side itself to collect the data Because of personalization for example. That's also a big driver like a keyword database. It's not that valuable anymore Um when when when you and I type in something we see wildly different results And that's of course a bit of a problem like there's always a 100% personalized but there is some level of personalization. That's clearly happening Yeah, so what do you think like how many prompts anyone should be tracking like like if you're a small business medium size or enterprise Like you should be tracking like 10k prompts 20k or maybe like just 3k Um To to to to to to clarify like we we charged like for so I think everyone now does it's like per prompt uh and the responses So I think I started by like 50 prompts, but it's really good understanding if you're spaced like what's going on by the way show up All the way up to like I think like 250 400's like how many you want what we combined that I think that's 50 years but like For now thousand responses, so you really should bring it over and over for some of the AI uh I overfused change don't change every few hours they change every 24 hours From what we've seen so far they're guest for 24 hours which makes sense I think in general the fun thing is some companies are like what should we track and then we get some sort of insights and like we help them to to serve as a little bit What's what's coming up? Uh, but a lot of companies are also like yeah, we want to know like best uh this and this or it's it's very like straight forward You just throw it at all these models and see these big differences and where you show up and where you don So to answer the question a bit clear. Yeah sure. I think for a simple company with like one big use case It's like 50 e-commerce it gets more complex So e-commerce that we have a few big e-commerce partners. It's like okay. We have a thousand products Yeah, you can imagine that it becomes a bit bigger in that space. So it's like really like Same with keyword research. If you have like 10 keywords you want to track For mini sass. It's fine. It's the opportunity to get bigger once once you have like more products to sell Yeah, and uh how how are you like recommending customers to like what exact prompts to track like let's say you want to just track like 50 How you you think that people should be deciding like what those 50 problems should be there's different ways So we allow you to connect with Google search console and just like extract keywords. You're already ranking for and write prompts around that very basic It works because you already know like okay in there around these topics. I'm showing up and then you can start Figuring out from there. What's the the best thing to do some companies want to do like really show now level Hey, I'm this and this person. I'm looking for a new I've started founder. I'm looking for a CRM very like specialized around the certain topic Um, but my personal favorite is crawler locks and seeing where the citations come in you don't know the prompt But if for example the demo account we have like the real estate for Europe If it's like a home for sale in Sweden, it's not that hard to figure out what the prompts are And then we generate those prompts to estimate like okay, which could have been the prompts we fired out And we checked like hey do these citations match like do you get the citations you expect to get And basically we reverse engineer like what could have been the prompt find that and work from there That really gives a good feeling of like okay, these are the clear topics We get the traffic on We run them validate that this indeed where the those citations get matched And then you have something okay now I can see how visible I am because then it gets interesting where you see Okay, I'm not that visible actually like my competitors are very high in these and I'm pretty low in these responses And then you get something to work from What are what are some challenges that you've had with tracking AI visibility that probably all of your competitors are I think there's I think the biggest one especially starting out and people hate to me for it Did this we build our own crawlers. So we quickly figured out we use the API for like okay, I'll just need to throw it in the API I was like okay, there's no there's basically no sources That's a problem so we really quickly figured out you cannot use API data to get the real data people get like the two Collings different everything and and and I think that's very quickly like where people Struggle with when they start out with this in this in space It's I mean there's the thousand competitors like I can Every day someone else is like following me on Twitter and like oh cool. You make the same. Oh fuck the same thing Um Because on the services are very easy idea you shoot some prompts at an API and you get answers and you show those answers cool And then the in-depth thing start was like oh now I can't use the API So I have to use the actual interface and oh there's more complicated So you have to crawl that and you're okay But then you also have to clean that because it's they had used these special tokens and everything so you have to make a little parser It's annoying, but okay. Oh, they added something new you have to change that so my plans are different this week Because I have to change that they have to do for publicity go by other than everything. So you see how quickly this goes And then it's also analyzing these citations because we now scrape all the citations So for example, we find an article that's influencing your Visibility we scrape it. We analyze it again. We're like okay. This is a corporate website, and this is a mystical or a review or a Comparison or so we have to analyze that sort as well So you can really dive in like what is impacting what where the opportunities should I reach out to these guys to get on the list and the So it really quickly become a massive product and then the YouTube is an impact Oh, we have to like it makes some insights and the YouTube channel the YouTube video to To give you help and like hey, this is like impacting your visibility this exact moment this transcript But this channel but these amount of use and before you know you build this huge marketing platform Where it's like oh, yeah, this this is why we have a team and we have some funding and we're growing because it's really big yeah Do you think that it can get to a point where like let's say In six to seven months from now you have the technology and the models where you can just like Give the action items like like I plug in my website. I don't see the visibility data. You just tell me that These are 20 things that you need to do and your visibility will improve. Yeah, I think it's not that hard like like we already see We're getting really close to the action the action ability for now is like it services really quick Uh a good friend of ours like the simple analytics the bootstrap startup in Amsterdam They use the platform for almost day one and now it's like oh, this is great because I can just see exactly which Listicles like put on one run. You see all these sources. They have an impact on how visible you are And basically you're that's your marketing plan because it's like oh clearly I need to engage with these posts on Reddit or create them myself clearly. I need to write these articles because I'm missing them I could better have these articles. I should write them Uh, these listicles of an impact on where I show up so I have to either reach out like to get on that list as well So before you know you're basically for an entire marketing plan laid out for you which I think it's a lot of fun because we see as well Where SEO tools were really like okay the SEO tools SEO teams Makes sense that's what they do and I was like oh, there's marketing and SEO. I think it's a really way more exciting opportunity Because now it's like everyone's Input is like very like it's very involved but also the clear impact and like hey that Stupid Instagram real marketing made we don't care about but apparently it didn't have the drive traffic and that's good Yeah Oh, I was going to ask have you used your own tool to to improve your marketing plan. Yeah, so we um to be fair Like we know as much as it should be doing We should be doing a lot more uh, but we clearly have like the writing for like the articles and stuff uh Again, listicles outreach like which articles should we focus on where should we but what is it having direct impact Um that and also like for reddit youtube is also linked in this is just basically everything that has an impact And what we do is just run these things daily So we get a good overview of like a something changing PR is a very heavy push for us. It was really nice And you can see immediately like hey these articles are influencing our ranking because we get this PR push Are you doing um are you doing social listening like do you have like full-time people doing social? We don't do that we should be doing that probably Um, I think for us like the difference with social listening is that for now We we we we track more like what has an impact on how You're found, right? So it's a bit different compared to like just tracking all the keywords because for example My Twitter has like zero impact on how we show up in chess bt makes sense right because they don't index x at all Fair enough Who doesn't and wait who doesn't like that ggd is like almost like no So like a few polls will show up but basically not Why why do you think? Why do you think it is because it is because it does I mean it does it does Long one for a lot on Google. Yeah, I'd say this for sure You don't like that. That's for sure Um, yeah, I think something that I think that But it is it but it is interesting because if you want to get good I mean no it's yes, it's you learn wouldn't allow it to happen Yeah, that's what it is. It's blog. Yeah, yeah, and if you search like like same thing same thing using a user grok Sometimes the first search that you're doing chain of thought is searching exports and then it's I think there must a fun example of like a homestry is like okay There's my little website and the only real estate platform in that niche that's getting some traction on x Is is through me for me post and eight and you can literally see by visibility on x for that Abs right higher than all my competitors all these big competitors because I'm like yeah, it makes sense because it's searching x First it sees my website sees me. It's like all the loose good Sadly, I mean the user just so loaded doesn't matter but you can clearly see okay. We own that source the source is prominent It makes sense, and it's the same thing with Reddit and JTPT that relationship I just it's sad in the set. Yeah, I did you want to have like x be present as well perplexity for example leans a bit on Instagram. I know if you see someone Instagram, but not that many mostly it's um perplexies mostly also still YouTube I think it's also turning down because the lawsuit with Reddit it's a mess if you think about all these things going on But so yeah, it's it's a really different per network And per llm talk again for us is good because there's so much chaos Perfect, but I'm pretty curious where it will have at some point Yeah, and even like like, uh, I think people should also be tracking like like which llm likes which platform the most and They should be optimizing for that. So chatchy per day is mostly like it likes the big new sites a lot So doing doing press releases and those kind of things are are useful and AI mode likes Reddit and YouTube a lot So being on Reddit and YouTube is something that going to push your visibility in AI mode. Yeah. No, I think I think if you ask me like General, I think videos gonna be a big thing like nothing right now, but give it a few more years because it's it's I think gone Lots of creators are moving towards it. They're less people are making blogs and they're they're making Instagram They're making Instagram. We also they're just looking at like because how do you like customers ask they were a bit like But early they were asking around like okay, we do this in this and and do you guys track TikTok search and like no No, I don't but There's definitely an interesting question because if you look at it, okay next generation What are they are they because now a lot is like the discussion like well people still use google and that's this uh through it's still the biggest that the Google is 95% so I had on actually I had on the SVP of marketing at datos yesterday Um, you you you know datos Yeah, so and and she's like yeah, Google is still like 95% of the market and Chatchy PT dwarfs all the other LLM's So much that they needed a separate graph for the other LLM's because if Chatchy PT was in it You couldn't tell the difference in sizes between the other ones because Chatchy PT is so I do find it interesting to look a little bit like in the future Like few years ahead like me go sit on a bus and look at like what like 40 year olds are doing on their phone And it's like they're not googling stuff Google is like what your dad used to do the I can definitely see Product discovery moving towards way more Instagram TikTok for them especially So a bit like how we do the Reddit thing now. It's such an impact on what we are seeing. I can definitely see that happen with bit Something also something worth mentioning that that I left out was uh Well actually before I say what I've seen like what have you seen with conversion rates through LLM's like How much better are LLM's converting when brands are doing we don't try the exact Retreat the conversion from like mentioned to click so we have the CTR Which is like I think we can brighten a CO with it they'll talk on it like The numbers in front of me, but basically at the top of the funnel content is almost like no clicks, right? So the answer is given I don't I don't not come to visit your website That's just the hard truth of it like nice that you had the answer. Thank you goodbye But for anything with intent when it becomes like hey, I'm looking for this Then the case become very high because you have like I want to buy something. I want to Download something free to whatever that that's very clearly By the click still go which gets to like chat you be shopping which becomes more interesting like okay They're gonna take that layer as well at some point It's still small, but what does it going to look like and I think I look a little bit more at like Google what they're doing because they if so much more Infrastructure ready they have The users are data Everything basically to take over the web if you think about like if you're like a doom think like I have a product I want to sell it. It's probably Google finds a buyer. That's it. There's no website basically anymore It's like how is a future going to look like in that form? I don't think that will happen by the way with all the trust things But if you think about it like they could essentially do that, right? But it's like I want to buy this is the universe options. Yeah order. Thank you No website has been seen Google Google can build the best shopping product like shopping recommendation system in the world like like chat GPT cannot close any if Google chose to do A specific product where like a recommendation search engine They can build the best like the best one. I think that in the end it probably won't happen because like I Lawson regulations for sure Brands don't like that idea of course of like having like because it sounds nice in the beginning and then like good luck Of course, there's also like 10 different brands selling the same Nike shoes, right? So that's also a bit like how does that work? Just the lowest price thing. So I don't think it will happen But I can definitely see where it's like check out and chat GPT Check out an AI mode finally ticket like they're definitely going to be some changes in that that's for sure, right? That's I don't think we all anymore was down there, but I don't think it could be the replacement of the web will happen Well actually while we're on this topic so Charles float came on two days ago And he said that he thinks AI mode is going to become the default once Google can figure out how to monetize it better And there's a huge debate that's happening around whether AI mode is actually going to become the default anytime soon I'm Charles float was like as soon as they can figure out how to monetize it which could which could be what is what is what do you guys think is like Why would it struggle to monetize it let me ask them but what is the thing they they they they were struggling to monetize in in AI mode Well, how do you it's just like what's the best way to put in ads and and also to not Because it you know If you think about if you think about how ads appear in search They're very clearly labeled ads you changed over time, but they're still no it's it's dude But it's still so sponsored. It's still so sponsored. It's changed. They've run experiments. It's gone back and forth But I mean So so what are you going to have are you going to have an AI recommend a product and then say sponsored over it And the thing is because the thing is it's easier to scan through a list of links and ignore the sponsored results Then it is to read through big block paragraphs and ignore the sponsored results It's a lot harder to ignore the sponsored results when you're forced to read through big block pair Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely can see How's a bit more like you have to make a bit more like appealing to people because I have to read to like five options that are sponsored first and then go That's also how we like Google now, where's like oh these are ads and then like because still now Do you but you probably I mean a lot of people just naturally This what I mean like okay, it's fall down and then there's the next section But I'm saying it's a lot harder. It's a lot harder to do that in it with the chatbot I don't think they like if you let's be realistic like there's a reason we don't have data on AI overviews right Because the the if you go a bit like step back like if you look at what people do with AI of use A lot of people ask us like the big reason for prom watch like where we grow so fast Also having support for AI of use because so many companies are like we need to know do we show up or not because Google is not telling us at all So that became a big big feature for us and I think simply the reason why they don't show that is because the number her terrible Like I just just like just I think that if they would show how often you're cited in these AI of use and how many clicks you're getting from it People would not did be okay, but it would be like very angry Google Well, well, let me let me let me tell you let me tell you so the episode with the SVP of marketing a data It's it's going to come out like an hour after we record this, but it's literally titled new data 57% of Google searches are zero clicked up wouldn't that and yeah makes it But but it's also but it's also because it's also because of Google's ecosystem It's not just it's like they might be it might result in something on Google maps or another Google property where a click is necessary I don't think it's like bad But an hrefs also did research that found hrefs did research and found that a overused decrease clicks by 34.5% Wouldn't be surprised at all like if you look at your own research behavior right but I'm like and people will hate me for this for saying this But like when AIO if you rolled out in the Netherlands, I was using Google again more than I did before because I just had a question I'm like I don't want to dive through five websites if I'm like what's yeah, okay, here's the answer Yeah, it's not always perfect, but like oh this quick information. I need. Oh, it's there. Okay, cool. Thank you. There's no click I like AI reviews. They're not perfect. I use them too. For a lot of simple things. Oh, this is the answer pool. Yeah, it's not it's like that yeah When when in Australia like like they started rolling out in the search results like like clients were telling me that They are seeing their brands in chat GPD from Google Glidesworth and you that AI overviews this chat GPD from Google I mean the education yesterday on this market is also extreme right is like so many moving parts all the time and people are like Why is there like chat GPD in my Google? No, let's say I'm out. Oh, yeah, I'm a what perplexity what is perplexity? Well, that's that's the other thing. It's also like running like okay, when what's it like people? Oh, yeah, so people are also now These models are also embedded so you want to be part of the training data So when someone else is a SaaS that asks about and you're like oh my god. How do you explain this? It's way too much So I want to I want to ask both of you. Do you think AI mode will become the default anytime soon? I would go with no Because Google don't want to take the risk of doing any sort of like experiment around ads So even if they figure out a right way to show ads in AI mode answers still there is risk of like not getting enough click through rights And if they're revenue from ads drop for a quarter. It's going to be disaster for the stock and it's going to be disaster for all of their data center investments that they have planned Because they have been telling investors that all these data centers investments that they are doing over like next two three years is just to serve AI more than AI or views and If the data clearly shows that AI mode is not delivering ads revenue Then why Google has already committed like three years of capex for all these data center investments that's going to be a big negative for investors and That's why I think that the risk is really high So Google will be really really cautious in controlling out AI mode ads and even like AI or views ads in us They announced it. I think at Google marketing live in last year and still we have not seen like any ad Like sometimes there is like once in a while But that is just like a regular ad showing a below AI mode But below the line that separates the usual results. So it's almost like the ad is showing up in the usual results But it just embedded inside the AI mode layout So I think the risk is really high so I don't see like any time Google Google sort of like doing the switch to AI mode And I'm going to counter that Um, all the points you make by the way, I'm completely agreeing with like if they cannot have a return of investment and get ads working on it it will not happen that's that that is for sure Um, but I do think um, let's also not forget the other side of AI mode The consumer really likes finding information on chat gpt and a i overviews and just having the answer in front of them I think that's also an important part of it like they I don't think that Google is investing in AI mode because I think it's like oh we just have So people who kind of want that so I do think they're going to do it Within one and a half two years to make it like the main default like keep you in my like main default I think that all the points from gone are completely vet like it needs to have return of investment as need to work Otherwise, it's not going to happen like I think they will figure that out. I have no doubt that Google will Figure out how to insert ads. I think they'll also there's a few things that find interesting one the user likes Chatgbt or AI of user AI mode just like I type something I get the answer That's nice. That's for everything. I think for example I see a lot of like travel booking examples I think that people really like having control over booking a flight and booking a holiday and everything So I don't think that it's for everything, but clearly like the fault way of searching will be AI search That's what I'm meeting on um I also think that ads will be viable enough especially with all the context Google has and I'm curious how much they can sprinkle in that because I mean if you think about like Google knows everything about you essentially So I think that definitely there is going to be especially in AI mode having context having the right context Having the data on like the products the websites and everything I think I think I'm will definitely become the the main thing at some point Also looking at like how much they're pushing it This is not some experiment. It's like it's heavy They know this is coming. They know this is also like I think that they Um, they need to do like I said like they need to have the numbers on it. It needs to be like it needs to drive clicks But if you look at like I think the most profitable things for Google ads are simply like the ads in the search results Instead of like the on-site better ads that I mean those are like less and less Thing compared to years ago. I think that definitely that that It fits really well into that hole. How are you going to show it like oh here options. Oh, this is sponsored option But it's like oh we add a little bit of a yellow outline around the the new show it's like so I have no doubt in what we think also with gents bt with ads like they will come I don't know when but they will definitely come in some form for sure What's your what's your take on how that will if it if it did become the default if AI mode did become the default anytime soon. What's your take on how that would change publishing web publishing and How it would change SEO if at all? Um, I think I think it's really depends on like the topic you're searching for like the same thing We'll be talking about shopping like there's like one in the end store that has the shoe you're gonna buy but there's ten stores Selling shoes. So there needs to be some still a website still something there I think the big publishers are going to be probably they they make big deals, but that's always how it goes Right they make oh you get partially you can read more on the website So I think that that's not I think for a lot of content. That's gonna be a problem Like I think like realistic and I have content websites myself right so I'm also going to get hurt by this But I think that's going to be a problem like like if you're purely an organic Organic organic play for like getting clicks from content. That's for sure. I think it will be brutal Like Not far at all. Yeah, I also think that uh, I think uh like are you also like uh in the last episodes We have talked about helpful content update that googled it in September 23 That was a big blow for like small to medium-sized publishers and I think if AI mode switch happens Then it's going to eat up like all remaining guys like like they will be no small to medium-sized publisher left like They will be just like large players in each country may be like like 10 20 In US 10 20 in Australia 20 in in Europe or everywhere else so It's going to be really hard for to start a new site Especially if you want to get into publishing no one will ever start that because there is no money like like it will be really hard to make money And uh And I don't know where where it is going, but it's a bit concerning as well To see it up broadly like Google taking over the whole web and Like everything is just to pen it on Google like they can turn the switch on and off Whenever they want, you know, yeah Yeah, like listen like I'm not saying this like in a good thing like oh AI search and prompt watch amazing and that like no I Clearly see this is not the like as a site owner myself. I can say like this is not great like I'm is if once AI mode is like The main thing it's not going to be great at all but what I do find like If what I need really like when I talk about this like what I need Google to do and it will eventually at some point do this most likely is having good insights where my content is cited and consumed Because I if you think about the other way around I don't care that much if people read my website in AI mode but chat gpt As long as I know they're reading my content it's cited it's clear they're consuming my content my stories And then they go off and click on it maybe not today maybe tomorrow, but it's part of the funnel if those insights are there Then that does change a lot because then I'm like okay my my content is the top content still I can see that don't get a click But it's consumed which will reward me eventually and hopefully like conversion then the line That could change in a little bit, but if it's just like oh yeah, we fumbled everything together and there's some food. No, but where we got it from That that's not going to be great because no one is clicking on that. Let's be real. No one is going to click on like Oh, I'm really interested in this paragraph where did it come from oh from this Click said too low for that. That's just not good Yeah, I think I even like like many people come to me and asking about like should they start a publishing business Because they ask you that You people ask like these kind of things like oh, I'm Interested in like these specific kind of cars And I have like six of them already and I just want to like find a way to make money alongside that And I'm like you can just do YouTube But many people they are just like I'm not comfortable on camera That is the most common question like like people say I don't know and then I was like starting a website is not a good idea right now So maybe try to get some lessons on like how to get comfortable on camera and start a YouTube Well, if you think about like if you sell something that does change a bit if you sell information Have fun if you sell cars or if you like have like a car trading business or anything That's only let's always see is like I mean in the end like change your beauty is not gonna sell cars soon. Let's let's be real but You can and then it's like okay these kind of like problems or like whatever you You track they are they are gonna lead you to your web to just basically wants to help you get the answer I'm like okay if you want to buy a car this is where you can buy the car So I think I think that those kind of business are still quite interesting some with the real estate website and running It's like I still get all these people clicked through because in the end like they need to reach out to the realtor Yeah, so there's definitely some value it's going to be curious like if they do build up a top of that as well Because I am waiting for someone that's going to do the correct correct list for AI Because if you think about it like probably what you want to sell find the match find someone to buy can we make that with So it's gonna be curious as well. How does it gonna look but but too content that's It's going to be a really toxic relationship between Google and the and the whole web because uh They have to keep the web alive like they cannot just go ahead and and kill all the publishers Because if they kill all the publishers There will be no new content for AI mode to train on and site on as well, which they don't want to happen either So it's going to be a balance where neither site owners can say that we don't want to show up in AI mode And neither Google can say that we don't want to send any traffic out So it's going to be a bit of like a toxic relationship and a balance between these two forces, you know Well, they have to give us something, right? I mean the idea of like you don't care that Google scraped your website because they They gave me a click so there was always the deal Because it makes a little sense right you scrape my content you give me clicks everybody's happy Nothing wrong now you scrape my content and I don't get anything Oops, yeah, so exactly like that that's just that's going to be really fun and we're I think they're very aware of this There there's not like black box for them or like they know that they have to deliver something they cannot Do this without any clicks at all on the other hand like LGBT is getting away with so much opening eyes getting away with a lot of stuff so far Not saying it's good. I'm not big I'm a big fan of a high, but also realistic and like I would straining his data. I was getting the data for training. I was like using these things and It needs to be a balance. That's for sure Gagen, do you think a lot of a lot of people will stop would stop doing SEO if AI mode became the default and if that happened Would it create actually more opportunity for people who stick with SEO? Because there's less competitors. Yeah, I think I even the switch actually happens then People will not be like stopping SEO. They will be questioning their ROI from SEO So if you are a business and you are going to spend let's say 10k on SEO for a year And AI mode is default right now Then you will be sitting there and saying that I can get a similar ROI by spending it on socials Maybe YouTube or doing some other sort of like affiliate partnership So it's not not going to be that SEO is going out or SEO is becoming less important It's just that a people more people will be questioning their spend on SEO and that will lead to that marketing budget sort of like shifting to other channels Yeah, I think it's already happening right now from some some of the conversations we are having is like well the budgets are Die because clicks are down like if you think about it may say there's The other income people some companies there is of course is like yeah, it's nice, but like 30% of our clicks are down fixed as first before there's more Oops, and that that's a logical thing from it's a logical thing from business if you don't like they should understand a little bit more of course But it's it's it's going to be a problem in that sense like like you said like for some companies I would also argue that just run ads like you're not going to have like organic people land up on your website Broad ads primarily. It's the best thing you can do it happens some businesses are very heavy on that and it works, but that could become more there's also a bit of the question of like if you just kill organic traffic Doesn't say that maybe that solves the Google question of like getting ads because now you have to like pay for showing up That's also a bit like what happens then I do think I think it's hard for a pure SEO content play I would say someone if someone wanted to make a hobbyist blog though I still feel like somebody could make a hobbyist blog and especially since like LLMs and And traditional search the like fresh content and there's still lots of quick like if one they like fresh content to There's lots of queries that are like wide open that nobody is targeting yeah There's lots of stuff that you can make content on if you want to make content on it yeah and and to your point class if you are selling stuff Personally, I think Search whether that's through AI or traditional search is an amazing place If you are selling if you were really if you have stuff to sell services products sass Search is an incredible place. Yeah, and also like like one of the other thing that I've been thinking about is Google discover So Google discover Used to show more of content which you are searching So let's say today you search about bikes then tomorrow you will get like more of bikes content But now it is moving from search history to more of like interest graph So whatever you scroll through whatever you click through the topics and what is getting discussed in those articles you get like more of that So Google discover is becoming more of like interesting things for you So I think That product and overall Google search can move to a point where Google exactly knows like what Guggan is interested in So Guggan is interested in SEO So if there is any new SEO company who is doing product launch or something like that on the web Google might send me a notification while I app saying that hey you're interested in SEO Check out this company and We already know that you are interested in these five companies Here is a AI mode search that you can run to compare and see if which one is going to be better for you Or maybe you should cancel one subscription and switch to others or these kind of things you know like Yeah, I think by the way like to talk and what's interesting and that is like if you look at like realistically You've seen some SEO projects where I was like oh these guys get massive amount of traffic right crazy like it was a Uh a platform for programming SEO That's for example, but what they did the whole SEO strategy around like driving traffic for a website I was like renting a whole room in a different country like The small like they're not the whole home, but just a room I was like a lot of traffic. They don't live it into the traffic and turns out was like oh, how do you say hello in Spanish? I'm like okay, you rank high for that and you get traffic on that But like is this really like valuable traffic one is the valuable traffic for your business Not really like the idea was there, but and this is something you should have been ranking for at all if I think about it like Did you give the user like the value? So I think there was also a bit like at some point some companies do too much SEO on like the Problematic SEO, but also like really are you the one ranking for this and why should you be ranking for this and So I think that also like at some companies like they get hurt with these Updates, but also like it's fair enough from like yeah, you're not losing you're losing traffic, but not sales right so It's I think it's a bit of a Like game on that side and also like related to that like one of the things that we have been testing with our clients is like You know like right now we have Subscribe to my email boxes on on the pages and everywhere else we are testing that Should you actions for us on Gemini? So in Gemini like you can schedule an action say that send me an update about whatever new videos Edward has published in Last two weeks and every two weeks It's going to send you a notification with listing the videos and a quick summary of that 14 videos because I do it every day So that's interesting things like like it's a subscribe to my email. That's Track my I really like this at least this smart. Yeah, yeah So I think that is also something that brands need to look into like if you want if we know that people are using these chat GPT and Gemini and old perplexity a lot So you want to make sure that if any feature which can sort of like serve you better Just use it push it to your users and get them to use it in that way because Edward want their content to be seen more and it does not depend like if it's from Google chat GPT or Some Gemini notification you know like you just won't present you know Yeah, just give me the view just give me the views give me the views. Yeah Class I want to ask you are there some things that are working to influence AI visibility right now that is Surprising you like oh, I wouldn't have expected this to work. Wow Um, I think it's a bit of like a bit of a mix Impressed like how quickly especially comments. I'm read it like there's something opposed and you comment on it how quickly that gets picked up Um, that's for sure and how easy it is with listicles It's it's it's basically SEO 15 years ago top top 10 days top five days alternative pages It right now. It feels like just honestly like like the stuff you did 10 years ago like it has surprising amount of impact Um that that's for sure and Also the query fan out some change of the itself. They're not that deep. They're like oh best thing one-on-one 2015 review, you're like, okay, this is not like the most the most intelligent search I expected a year to come up with but That there's definitely a lot of opportunity. We'll have to stay for that for long But it's very clear like you can just sort like what we basically do now is that we service all those articles for like okay These simple articles have impacts and brands just like Either write this is the same or similar stuff or they reach out for these listicles to be part of it It's really impressive like how how easy that is for now like I can't imagine it stays for long, but I think the brand to me When I can see changing is like the brand entities and the product entities are now showing up in chat GPT That is really interesting because the concept of these things like Like being a actual part of response. I hate it really like are going to do something with it That to me is really interesting because that means that they keep track of these things in a way I don't know how exactly how they're gonna use it, but it's definitely An interesting place where you can at some point like is it ads? They're gonna work with is it like Tracking the responses they're giving to give certain like reviews and like Measure internally a popularity. I don't know yet to be fair, but I think that this This is going to be like the the thing it feels to me like this is where it's heading Having more track internally tracking these indexes to these kind of entities like what are these entities And to me, that's really like the the interesting thing though. I don't know. Yes kind of like Kind of like a brand score. Yeah. Yeah, I think that It could be could be like I want to say like oh, it's definitely that thing because we don't know, but It can definitely see that happening. I think that's Where certainly was a bit of keywords you rank for those keywords, and now it's been more like they topics Let's not forget Google and DeepMind they came up like their teams came up with the whole MLM concept is basically so they they know what they're doing And and I think that that is for me is like really interesting Like can they do entity scoring brands like entity scoring brands scoring where the key track context matters Unread it. You have so many like positive comments YouTube video like what is gonna change with these like Essentially we have page rank For websites What is it going to be like page rank for entities? How is it going to shape and suddenly you're ranking for stuff without even having a website Kind of happened like can you have a rent entity without a website Showing up for stuff. That's I think that's the This is more of the interesting stuff to see where if you technical level see where SEO is heading I think that's for me is like I think also where prom barge is the platform is like heading like backlinks are one thing brand mentions another in both contexts are you getting mentioned? I think that's really the the thing that's gonna change the way we do our jobs. I think that's really the way Like I see what's interesting about that though is still that still sounds like SEO to me like and I mean like Man 10 years ago ran fishkin was saying build a brand I think he was doing whiteboard Fridays 10 years ago ran Friskkin fishkin was doing whiteboard Fridays saying build a brand here are all the SEO reasons you should build a brand But you should build a brand and and that's also why but I said like the whole thing that geo a I SEO SEO You're optimizing for a search engine So it's SEO in a sense at some point again. I think that brand building will I think what does that you should do that anyway, by the way, you should do brand building that's just a good thing I'm curious like how much more impact it will have that's more like the thing I find interesting is like Because we use like I can use reddit and then you comment with a brand name and then People would search for it But now it's like is it going to influence have a bigger impact on that like the entity database the brand Entity in these models is that going to be a thing? That's I think that's a big question like Beijing was like okay, but it's only but it's always been a thing It's like if you look at if you look at anchor text. It's not just exact match anchor text. It's partial match It's it's the text that's surrounding the the backlink. It's it's it's what the the page is on What the set this the the site the backlink is on it's all of that stuff and it's always been like that Yeah, that's why I was also see it as an evolution right so I don't think it's like a revolution of like oh Stop what you do is like no, okay now there's more context than ever before. I think this is the big change. That's simply the big change it like It was like is it like Backlink's were always simple. What's the backlink like I kind of backlink from people's magazine for the wedding suit That's a nice backlink not kind of do a lot because well. It's like that is like a broke man Gave or sold this wedding suit for sponsorship The the context of the link is not going to be crazy. That's not valuable. The link from The Yahoo finance with AI LLM tracker whatever promwatch That's going to be a valuable one again context. So there's But I think that the it's just like expanding on that like okay now there's a red post now. There's like without even because this is a big thing There's no link. What is there's no link? Okay, there's now there's mention of your brand on a page without linking to you And then it becomes a bit like you can attract that here's that's going to be a big big thing at some point where it's like okay now that So that's why I see this like an evolution of like okay things are changing Yeah, I mean what you've done 10 years ago is still like build the brand build links build contacts build positive context around it. I don't think that that is really changed at all Yeah, right now I think like over the years like many businesses have ignored like putting out more content on the website But right now I think it's going to become really really important. So if anything is you think that is unique to your business And it's not on your website. You got a problem now So if you're let's say you're hiring new team members or let's see you hired a new head of engineering You should create a page about that on your website that you you have hired so and so here is their expertise And if you're doing like a team event or something like that you should also create a page about that Because most of the brands they did just do like social posting about those kind of the things But now right now I think that it's important to have that information on your website as well Yeah, I think the weird thing is that we all know there's like you probably won't get that much clicks on it But it's all the context engineering you have to do to like And and that's the the weird things like oh content is dead But you still need to have content on your website to let the AI know what you're actually doing So if you think about like oh, yeah, still you need to yeah, you still have to do that I think there's also some limits because I saw a few Platforms that are now pushing like oh just made thousands of articles and stuff and like oh, don't please don't do that I've seen you know you know like AI slap as a service No, I think you always see the same thing right Well, sometimes you just into the boom and then it just gets scaled off. Yeah, it makes sense. It doesn't work Uh, I would argue don't do it. I think programmatic SEO but I'm like bro it's great. Do that Well, programmatic programmatic SEO is different because like programmatic SEO was rooted in being useful AI slop as a service is rooted in pumping out slop That is that is unreviewed and that is probably hallucinating and hey We don't care because look how much traffic we're getting and we're exploiting Google And like so that's it's a big difference between programmatic SEO and and AI slop like thousands of AI slop articles Huge different. Yeah, I mean 100% like I see now a bit of like overlap. I'd be like, oh, we would be programming the SEO and then what do you do? I will just generate 10,000 articles and like oh Yeah, well, that's a problem too. Yeah, they will not really be working at all But yeah, now I think that generally topics click share and Google says it like write content people like to read it like write good content But it is in the end like do that like write something useful because that's something useful that people will share and read and The LLams also most likely will pick up. I think one thing I do notice is like the speed is changing So because these LLams we call it like Highscaled like the black hole of content where it's like there's no Reason for an LLam to search how to cook an egg the information is answered I think that's that's something keep people have to keep in mind like writing content on your website of like if you do content writing like For optimizing that don't write content. There's like an answered question because there's no need for an LLam to like go search Like how do we unless you're unless you're gonna write something unique and you have an existing audience to share it to yeah But even because but the thing is if you if you don't have an existing audience to share it to and you write something unique LLams won't pick it up Because LLams LLams are like if it's something that there's a lot of content on They're surfacing the consensus Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, it's it's it's a bit like We did know for some of the Reddit report We did notice people picking it up in in Cheshire, like searching for it in Cheshire, we need to find it Which was weird like nothing much, but we just see some oh this interesting that the citations get picked up there So people are finding these pages through it But like not crazy no because You read like it's you don't really go to check into like discover like and and like like you said like this edge case of content there It's very personal. I mean our entire business is more like intent. I want to buy something. I think we know well We know that you can't get that you're not going to get unique information on Cheshire PT that you're unlikely to we know they get it because we're savvy But a lot of people don't know yeah, that's and that's a fair point by the way That's a really good point because I had someone like sometimes we talk people and I had someone It was like well, I asked Cheshire PT where he got the sources from and it said this and I'm like that's not true Oh, but they believe him because Cheshire PT told them it bus and I'm like, oh wow, this is it's gonna be a long afternoon People are not are not I think that the three of us are probably pretty smart most people are not are not like this Yeah, I think that they're smart But they're like if you if you we're smart in our topic of the how-and-a-lab works how to calling works how these models get information So we understand that so I don't want to say like they don't know not smart But it's a risk of course in the topic where people like oh, but the AI says so so it must be true which It's it's gonna be fun. Let's say like that for sure Gargan you were saying something. Yeah, I think many people are using Cheshire PT for like generative experience as well We are they're just like trying to generate something like they are uploading their data and saying it to like Clean it up Do some addition multiplication here and there and just give me the final report. So that is also a big use case Which people are using like students are just uploading their study PDFs and trying to get notes rather than searching the information so That it's also something that brands need to look into like if anyone is doing a generative task And then they move on to do a informational task about whatever they are generating Whatever they have already generated in the conversation how you fit in there So you also need in that kind of experiences you need to look into like the bottom of the funnel content and see like how you can There can be certain actions that someone can be taking and you might fit in at the end of that conversation nor at the start or the middle, you know Well, it goes a bit like what I said earlier, right? So when you have a cursor and you're Right, you build something right with cursor and cursor uses exit to search the web Right, so it's a different search index probably like right now I'm being but like you get the idea at some point build their own index So I'm asking cursor like hey build me a website Which framework will it pick what it picked next yes and for sale for hosting because suddenly it's very interesting For for sale to appear It suddenly you have like a shopping factor where it's like oh because I'm buying something based on what the LLM is saying And that's really where I find it interesting. I'm like all these micro little transactions or micro little Influences where you're like oh, I want to be I want to build something with something which options are you choosing and based on what And I think that that's as it is like working with church beauty. Here's like it makes make me a pdf do this with it Print that pdf, okay All these little things are really interesting like the ecommerce things of like the future where which Which product is the AI gonna pick I think that's really Reaches what it will be heading because if you think about it like it could be like a massive massive opportunity to see like a How do I rank in that but also like how do I improve showing up in that uh when the LLM makes decisions for me To pick something out to build something with or also just to purchase something Yeah, and this example like came to my mind because like I think three or four weeks back I was talking with the client like they do cakes Kicks cake shop and that they do delivery as well in Melbourne so If anyone let's say a big company 100 employees they are doing like a like a party or a treat kind of thing and Whoever person is responsible for ordering like like whatever the catering will be They are having the conversation with churchy beauty and then they do the employee survey asking everyone about their preference Like what kind of cake they like and then they just upload that google sheet to churchy beauty and then ask it like Which is the best shop who can deliver like all these requirements That is not like a search that people were doing with google They were never an option to like put in so much information and so much context and now it's going to be so much context rich And if you want to show up for those kind of the questions where Then you need a lot of specific information where you're saying that I provide this cake plus this plus this plus this plus this So that you can fit fit in like the largest requirements that a user can have and Get the conversion from there It yeah, I think that's really interesting Also in general like buying sass or any Sass of course might feel I understand this feel but people buy stuff But it used to be like people have like often buy the wrong software because simply marketing push something else in your face You're ending up with a CRM that you should not be using you should be use the simpler one But if you think about like there's like 50 CRM. So there's probably one that's better for you But you never discovered it and what if AI can make it so that you actually hey, this is me I mean, I need a CRM for my company as like hey this unknown one. You've never heard of it's not a hotspot It's like a special CRM for For I don't know Kind of garden or something like oh make total centers a product for that I buy that and it's like the perfect match But how how will the how will the LLM know if there's no content on it? I mean, so in the sense of like there that so that you go back to like there needs to be content still on your website Yeah, so yeah, so that's the funny thing But you still need content to be found by AI so that I think you'll never change But I'll find the buying thing interesting because you can search so much better like if you said I mean, I need to see a RAM you end up with hotspot you end up with all the standard players But they are CRM specific for let's say schools or something which maybe the people don't even know Like oh, let's actually maybe a big opportunity of like what if there's not What if there will be more products than ever before and you can now discover those products and actually it's way more democratized compared to like I just spend the most on ads and unlike the most generic tool which never is perfect for everyone But like that's a bit like more like the philosophical thing of like AI and where we can have but I like that idea as well where it's like oh more opportunity for everyone And more democratized in a sense of like hey, I can now use AI to find the right the right model Yeah, yeah, my my view is put out a lot of documentation and talk extensively about all the use cases that you satisfy Yeah, I think I think it's getting to a point where users are beginning like more powerful You can research more content in less let's speed it off time So you can literally like set up a Gemini deep research for whatever you want and just like two three minutes later It comes comes up with a really large report like showing you everything that you should consider to make your decision And that used to be like like a two hour starts for your research analyst you know like So users are becoming like really really powerful now and It's just heading towards a point where you need to specifically present more information on your website and overall on the web And also you need to specifically talk about whatever your features are People are going to run the comparison space upon these features. So Yeah, I think that yeah, I also like I think To circle back the whole reason that market that the AI geospatial became a thing is because people started doing that Right, they were like, hey, I want to have the best CRM for this situation. It's like here 30 options Oh, but if you want to dive deeper that's that's great. I mean, I think telly the The the forum builder they they they were one of the big ones that started sharing like hey We do big numbers from chaisy pt. You know the customers find us through that. It's amazing It's like oh cool because they can now compete with like Typeform as a smaller bootstrap startup because they they get recommended like typeform can no longer be like top off like all the ads Look on the school. So the And for many people that their solution is better probably a for enterprise, but for like the so I like this this this way of It's you think about the bit more honest marketing. We're like, hey, you get judged by the things you deliver instead of like the most ads bands It's an interesting one. It's a good thing which will of course change again with ads and everything so it will become Probably a bit circling back, but we'll see how it plays out. Yeah So it just comes down to like like build a great product and then build a great brand to sell it If you think I don't know I think I think marketing is there still like because the way that I look at it is the Barrier to actually building something now is so low especially when it comes to software It's like it's there's just more people making new stuff. What's the differentiator? It's marketing and I think like this is a bit like the discussion of like I'll get in fights on Twitter with this Yeah, yeah really? I think let's go. Let's go now. I think what I like is that people can access and write and use code and Five-go stuff and and get to a certain solution I also see it's like it's very hard to build like a full-blown full like try try building from It's like make me prompt watching. Sure. It's sure. So I definitely see still like there's a big Opportunity is like you can easily get started, but it's also like still as difficult as ever It makes sense. That's true. You also seen our in the AI search page, right? Hundreds are starting and people are still folding and like shutting down so You would argue that we all could make the best the similar the best tool apparently we cannot so that apparently is still I wouldn't argue I wouldn't argue that at all I would but I would argue I would argue that lots of people can make stuff and the person who has the best marketing is Gonna get a huge share of the market. Yeah Yeah, but I think in general there was always the big thing right even if their product is worse even if their product is worse I think it will be it slowly is becoming less and less that situation right where it's like even when you're like a little bit less marketing But there's still the opportunity to do like because you we were surprising to me It's like a lot of shopping companies do before they sell in a solution where they literally go in demo calls and they have like five other companies like they shop a lot don't underestimate how much Companies investigate like the health landscape different try different solutions before they commit to something. So I think that it's Good marketing will get you on that list to to be part of that. Sorry, but still is that product like don't I think a lot of people I was interested in product, but I've seen teams like I mean look at clueless with the with the whole marketing campaign and everything and it's like The all the marketing was correct, but like the sales were apparently not that good. I'm not saying I'm not saying products Isn't important don't get me wrong. I'm not saying product isn't important Not at all product products is extremely important But there are there are a lot of great products out there that are undiscovered. Yeah Yeah, I know like like a single boat would be like have a good product have a good marketing. That's that's what imagine happens You know what you know what I've also been thinking about and I think cognitive you got me thinking about this was So we've been talking about how video is a huge opportunity This is something that I'm not doing that I that I need to be doing and that ma's did really well Which is having pages on your site for each video that you make so like every whiteboard Friday It didn't it wasn't just a raw transcript. It was a Formatted review transcript with an h1 and h2's and sometimes h3's and I think it's something that I I want to do in the next six to 12 months is hire somebody for Each because I put out this show every single day, but like what if the show had and it had its own own page on my site It was within a subfolder. Maybe I even had them into into other subfolders depending on the category But then you know, I have an h1 I have h2's maybe some h3's and I have the whole transcript It's reviewed. It's right there and and I think that videos that actually have that Get a lot more from search like there is a huge wasted opportunity bit by not doing that and the contents already there But you just need somebody to do that. It's the fun thing right we all call a content is that it's all right and then it's like oh we still should Push so much stuff on our website like the conclusion is like have like everything on your website structured and and and if it's a video Have it if it's like someone joining the team have it on your website if it's a big team outing Newsport report a new feature change log Landing page for all your features like it's like the weird thing is like we expect less clicks But we were making more content than ever before so yeah, I think it just yeah Operations running any business like small medium-sized large. It's just the Getting the operations right is really really hard task and I think your AI is going to help with that but but still like right now like Getting getting operations right is so so I struggle with that every day like like it's a my problem You know like and I work with all these businesses and I can see their operations programs as well like When you interact with any business or you are talking with like business owners You can see like like what exact challenge they have It's mostly that we have a operational problem. We cannot find the right telling to sort it out Yeah, I think in general like this also I never like it when there's a lot of AI SaaS tools But I was like oh you click and forget and the AI agent magically will do everything and sadly We'd never seen like successful cases in any like field bird those are deployed but I think for example we do like we can service all these action points right we can serve as like hey you have to do this And do this but you still have to do that like I can serve as like you I'm not a for example a big fan of like oh we could like automate the Reddit comments like good luck with that like that that's not That's not going to work Automate with AI or with a human the AI like what do you like I like the idea of like servicing I mean these red posts have like influence on how you rank that's good like here we can we can show that to you But like trying to automate commenting on that like I can give suggestions But I don't think it works because I've seen it feel so many times. So I would argue don't do that same Same with YouTube like we could make a like you know make a Bond that creates a YouTube video for you. I have I have oh Oh, they're gonna say commenters. Oh, but yeah YouTube. Yeah Well, I mean so actually I'm having I'm having Julian Goldey on in It actually I think he he comes on next week and he I was watching him talk to Jackie Choo who was also who was on last week and Jackie was like so you scaled up Your AI content like pretty hard and he and He has a lot of but he has but then again He has a team that is literally finding good content that people care about and then Then they are actually like using AI and they're using cloud to like ideate scripts And then they his face is being cloned and his voice is being cloned But there's still humans doing the research behind that yeah Like I see with most of these AI options is like if I'm let's say we build a system where you can generate the perfect YouTube video For these things right then it's like kind of like so much automated that everyone is access to the system So it doesn't become an advantage anymore Yeah, that's a bit a bit problem with a lot of these solutions if it's like if it's so Easy to automate the advantages of what it goes away, right? So yeah, that's I think that's always the line where you're like you can make we can make inside We can give you action plans because hey these things have an impact on these are suggestions for content for creation But I would probably argue we're still far away from actually just then also just making that content That's that's probably not something we're gonna see soon Well, maybe we can't see the some point because I think first of all the short the short video market is something that's like super automated I have a extension on YouTube to block those Shorts because there's don't want to see them, but yeah, I think you can definitely see it become a thing at some point But for now, I don't think it's a big thing. Yeah, I know many many many people who are like why see back to they are working on like Personal agents who can do like like you can create one source content and it can help you create like Platform specific post from that so Edward can just create like one episode and it will give you recommendations around like Which clip out of that episode should be posted on LinkedIn We should go on x with what content and things like that that can be helpful, but But at the end of the day, it's just like AI making the judgment and you also need to step back and see like is it hallucinating or Maybe you can make a make better judgment compared to any AI model you I'll tell you I'll tell you Garg and I I I'm not gonna name. I'm not gonna name it, but it's in like the top three of the ones that uh that does that And like if I said the name people would know it and I consulted them And it was just like Even in the top three it's this it the software isn't good for actually picking out clips from a podcast and clipping it into stuff that will go And and something that I've seen from making so much content is Every podcast that I make There is an opportunity to take something and turn it into a viral short. Yeah, sure. There is an opportunity to do that But like it's not just that AI doesn't pick out that viral short. It's that it gets it so raw Like like the like the clips are so bad What these AI clippers do is so bad. I think the problem with problem with that is like it's making a database judgment Like where it has seen what has gone viral and then it thinks that if These 10 things has gone viral then out of the new video. This will go viral But that's never happens you know like like the same type of video really go viral like like like that guy What's the name uh from Indonesia like like like the vibe coding Yeah, so he went he went viral and it's not like there is None of the trend which like is similar to that video like like that is the unique thing That went viral which never existed So LLM's cannot make like like a judgment on virality like they can help you to figure it out But it's never going to get get to a point where it end up getting like 100 million views, you know I think what's interesting uh because I think we could all see it becoming good We can all see like hey they should they could within a short time maybe a year There will be software that can clip the right parts of this podcast to say these are interesting parts that we Probably at some point to bill be a thing But I think like these it's it's it's amazing to judge what's good even now Class likes okay, so actually I'll tell you if we just started making teasers for guest episodes Up until now we were not doing that the episode that's coming out in an hour from now Is it's gonna have a teaser on it and my initial thought Was like I have AI pick out the best lines. So I gave I gave the transcript to chat GPT I actually had chat GPT come up with a prompt to use Because chat GPT can can be pretty good at coming up with prompts Like it made a very detailed prompt on the type of stuff I went from the transcript And even then the the stuff that it got that it gave me Part of it was was hallucinated other lines just weren't good They just weren't and and and I There is a way to use it But I what I guess what I'm trying to say is it takes you know what it is There's a way to have good AI prompts to pick out the best lines It it requires a lot of work in order to refine the prompt and I think it's different for each show It's different for the feel of each show. So when each when each Creator has a different feel. How are you going to make the you can't reuse a prompt for each creator if I maybe it like depending on the category You can do it. What's your category and then maybe okay? Maybe there's a way to solve it. I think you know the line about it Like there's something like this is like I feel like Kind of like an agent modes, but you're like okay first like gets all get all the context around the creator What is like been happening? Why is he on the show? And you have some project and then you can see something happening If you look at it like how much this basically what you've done do research of phones have the interview and like Oh, this was a this was a fun part. This was a fun part We should do and actually you actually already did it So to to have the good result you have to do research and basically it's a fun joke Someone once made I like that one have you tried giving the AI the answer Because that's sometimes almost required to get the like oh yeah You're already like giving it the answer. What's the point of using AI because every day is already there So I think that's really like that you're saying reverse engineer it basically your reverse engineering is so by doing that You already have the answer to we know that 42 is the answer. What's the question and then let's reuse that question Exactly. No, but but that yeah, that's that is a good point and I do think that Maybe if I had a more extensive project on what works and and what doesn't Then maybe I could I could get that and like to counter myself. It could be possible because a lot of different shows fall into niches So it you could actually have prompts that work for niches that could be that could be good. Yeah, but I'm not there yet I mean And I've used AI for content a lot And it's still like the best thing is like honestly the best thing is goggin sends me Something on x that he found interesting. He's like may content on this. I may content on it and it goes viral And it's it but it's the human Who is identifying what is going to go viral and what is not it's it's such a like I think the whole viral thing is such a fine line Like it's so you have to be so in the moment to make it work that you can probably never really train an algorithm or an LM to to to pick those moments I think you can of course like hook it into like grog and get like all the Real-time information to figure out what's trending now and as it is a base, but like to be really If you're doing if you're doing trends if you're doing trends short But I but so what's also very interesting is I have short-form videos That I upload every six months and they go viral again every six months Beek because they're Universally interested like there's a story about this guy who bought google.com And I don't know if you guys yeah, so it's guy, but yeah He he he was messing around with google domains and he's like He's like oh like what happens if I just put him google.com here. Oh, it's let it's available. Let me click buy Oh my god. I own google.com now and he owned it for like a second and then the Purchase was and he got all these emails confirming that he owned it Every time I make oh if I took what I just said right there and I clipped that into a 30 second video I can promise you it would get several hundred thousand to several million views I can promise you with certainty. Yeah, because yeah, because I've done it like five other times So there are like these are the evergreen me. I remember I had made that tweet like a while ago about like we changed all the loading states to thinking So we're now in a genetic AI startup because like 10,000 likes millions of views. I made the same joke six months ago The same same joke. Yeah, yeah Also a bit of traction, but it's just like I think you can make it in a few months again But these are these evergreen jokes just work people love them But then it's also been the question with fire that he's like If I take a viral video of like any platform and put it on my twitter It will not resonate. It will not go viral. So you're also the based audience anyway. So it's so so Yeah, it's interesting to get right that you need to know your own audience. You can push everything. So it's like it's really I think that's that's why I'm never like too worried about like AI taking over everything because all that this is the brands People we want to be part of something They love that right so that never we got changed. I think at least well and and to wrap to wrap up this conversation I don't think the amount of people searching is really going to decrease I think it's some the population is growing Yeah, but but no no invest in countries No, that's true Well, that's true. That is very true. Yeah But I mean some people try to make the argument that like AI is just going to predict what you want next Personally, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. I think there's some truth in that you can definitely make a gaze of like Oh, you bought this and you probably now want to have it, but you're still going to do more searches But you're still you're still going to just continue to like even if search intent to satisfy you'll go search for something else Yeah, well, I always say that people love browsing don't underestimate how much people love the window shopping the experience of because the cookie Bennes is yield Sorry But what cookie Bennes I always say that this But I always say with these is that you can of course I can make a I can make home extra a real set website where you type in who you are I will give you the best option for vacation home. It will be a freelance pain for example Cool. No one will use that people want to click around for weeks and months and see all these options and experience the idea of dreaming and clicking around I think that also for shopping for Going like a shopping street and you see how much people enjoy the experience Maybe not us, but like people like that. So I think that never like the idea of websites going away I don't see that happening anytime soon, but I do think that the buying experience is a big thing Also, it's it's like a human psychology like like whenever you're about to spend on anything You won't effort behind it to justify that to yourself, you know and that effort comes from browsing Yeah, that's the whole the window shopping the experience find the right thing and I think it's also I wasn't studying in Netherlands that the younger generation is now actually Using more of those travel agencies. They're actually young people are using travel agencies more than ever before because they want to write experience They want to have like they go there. They have this and you like you expect them to all to go to just Which I mean still people do that and still become a massive market, but it's fun to see that oh well people also just Want to have the buying experience and let's get it. I think that's a nice thing and also the big opportunity still to have that and do that right so I as long as the website keep keep being relevant. I'm happy this this is the main takeaway Where where should everybody find you and find your stuff? I think that easy is way from watch.com and also my I think I'm mostly on twitter the forge bits twitter Thing I think most of us use by now sadly I have to be careful what I post You have a you're a great twitter. It's it's I'm a very fortunate enough that it goes like viral every week now So we have like a lot of traction from there Also again, we talk a little bit of brand but personal brand is also like I think a big thing a lot of people are sleeping on maybe Maybe it's safe to become a bigger thing than we expect yeah I'm bargain. Yeah of course on twitter. Guggen goes around this Yeah, and I'm linked in yeah, I'm linked into but way less like twitter is almost like 24 by seven Yeah Both of you both of you post amazing stuff really really interesting stuff On I mean I mean class you posted such influential stuff that you took down the price of red it by 10% without intention That is all that we got for you on this episode of the show Great. It's a good episode guys. Thank you so much. Thanks. All right. So for everybody who watched and listened This is episode 856 of the Edward show. Oh my gosh 156 days in a row doing this podcast had some great guests this week and actually Though the legend David Quaid is coming back on Sunday. He's We had a good episode a couple weeks ago is coming back Such a good week Everybody Thank you so much for tuning in and I will talk to you again tomorrow Bye now