How One Woman Turned Divorce and Financial Collapse Into a Bestselling Memoir (ft. Belle Burden)

I think it's a real red flag. It doesn't mean your husband is going to walk out the way mine did, but if you ask the questions and ask to be included and ask to understand where the assets are and whose name is on them and they don't wanna tell you, that is a real red flag. And you should really talk to some, like a professional to try and understand what's going on financially in your marriage. What's up, rich people? It's me, Haley, aka Mrs. Dow Jones, and this is Financial Tea. The summer was incredible, but I'm already looking forward to fall and getting back into all my routines, eating healthy. The balanced meals with Factor, it's really my non-negotiable for a reset. Factor makes chef-crafted, dietician-designed, ready-to-eat meals, so you don't have to choose between real food and convenience. Factor meals are ready in two minutes and require no prep and no cleanup. So even on the days your schedule is completely out of control, you can still eat. Even if you're out of control, eating well is still achievable. 97% of users agree that Factor meals help them live a healthier life. So you can feel confident that you're already doing something good for yourself just with every meal. I love their salmon burgers and their protein shakes. They are the perfect start to long work days. Let's eat real. Head to factormeals.com slash MrsDowJones50off and use code MrsDowJones50off to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box, for one year. Wall supplies last until 10-31-2026. That's code MrsDowJones50off at factormeals.com. See website for more details. The other day I was going through my desk and I found a journal right from when I graduated and it had pen and paper, how much I spent each day. At this time, I think I was making around $40,000 and excess cashflow was pretty tight. So I had to watch every penny. I think about how far, we've come with technology and advancements to help us with this stuff. 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That's 50% off your first year. Just go to monarch.com with code trading. Welcome back to Financial Tea Sippers. This is the podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture. Now, if you follow Mrs. Dow Jones, you know that a prenup is my Roman empire. Like I always say, I'm doing PR for prenups. I love them. I think everyone should have one. It's a non-negotiable. But in today's episode, we're going to explore what happens when you have the elite education, the high society pedigree, the trust funds, yes, plural, and the quote unquote perfect life only to realize that you have been locked out of your own damn bank account. In 2020, a modern love column in the New York Times went absolutely nuclear. It introduced the world to Bell Burden, a woman who is essentially American royalty. Like we're talking Vanderbilt descendant, granddaughter of the iconic Babe Paley, and a literal lawyer. On paper, Bell was a person least likely to be financially vulnerable. But overnight, at the start of the global pandemic, the narrative exploded. Her husband of 20 years left, and Bell was forced to confront the most terrifying financial reality that she had completely abdicated from. Despite the fancy vacations and the Martha's Vineyard house, she was standing on a trap door with basically no cord to pull. She had signed a bad prenup and was on the verge of having to leave her home while her husband got to keep everything that he made during the marriage and give her nothing. And he had made a lot of money. And I just want to say like kudos to Bell because it's rare, and I do mean rare, that someone from this level of wealth, I mean, it's rare that anyone is so open financially, but I do feel especially when you are a woman and you come from a lot of money, it's rare to really find someone who's willing to get into the messy, unvarnished details of their financial collapse. Like some people might even find it embarrassing or shameful, but Bell owned this completely. And she wrote her memoir, Strangers, which if you haven't read it, it's incredible. You will read it in one day. And it's not just a bestseller. Like it is truly a manual on why trusting him is not a financial strategy. And by the way, there's a huge, huge Hollywood war for the rights. And the rumors are that Gwyneth Paltrow wants to play the lead, which if you're watching this on YouTube, you will totally get because Bell like has Gwyneth Paltrow energy. She is Gorgina. But yeah, I guess the cat's out of the bag. Bell is here to talk to us about what it actually feels like to rebuild your entire financial identity from scratch when the world thinks that you have it all. And then have a hit memoir come from it that Hollywood is fighting over. But first let's get into the MDJ market report to see where the money is moving this week. Okay, first, first because I know that if you are watching this, you are a sipper and you like a good deal. When you pre-order my book, Future Rich Person, The New Rules for Building Wealth, even if you are stuck broke and that billionaire won't text you back, you get over $700 of freebies as a thank you. Like you are going to get access to my top free guides and courses that are going to help you get even more rich. Like my step-by-step guide to traveling for free with credit card points, my viral tax guide that helps you pay less, all my buy versus rent calculators. The list goes on and on. We are releasing new freebies every week. So seriously, when you pre-order, you really do sort of unlock the keys to the Mrs. Dow Jones castle and you get access to so many products. Plus you will be helping me achieve my goal of becoming a New York Times bestseller, which would just make little Haley so proud. So I'm really excited. Make sure that you go to mrsdowjones.com slash book to pre-order. Also like, the book is so necessary. I'm sorry. This is not our parents' economy. Times have changed so much, but financial advice is stuck in the past. And that is why I wrote this. It teaches you how to grow wealth in 2026, the modern way, whether you want to rent instead of buy, you want to have kids later, you want to start your own business. Everything that's not covered in traditional finance books, including how to deal with such an unstable economy is in Future Rich Person. So go to mrsdowjones.com slash book to get and get those seven books. $1,700 worth of freebies ASAP. Thank you so much. Okay. So now let's get into the market report because we have some really juicy tea this week. First of all, I just want to talk about Tom Brady because guys like he is giving gold. Like Tom Brady and gold have a lot in common, like obvious and just go with me on this because this is sort of where I cook when we bring a pop culture analogy in with some financial information. Like that is the Mrs. Dow Jones way. So let's get into it. Let's do this. Tom Brady was obviously spotted with Alex Earl starting New Year's and then multiple times after that, right after she broke up with Braxton Berrios. And now this last week, he was seen leaving a party at Jeff and Lauren Bezos's LA mansion with Dyle Cohen Braun, AKA Scooter Braun's ex-wife. And like, obviously Scooter Braun is running around town with Sydney Sweeney. So pretty much the only, the only way to get back at him is to hook up with Tom Brady. And that's what made me think like Tom Brady, if he was an asset would be gold because like when markets get volatile, investors flee to gold. And when relationships end and you need to get back at your ex, apparently you flee to Tom Brady. Like gold doesn't grow your portfolio either. It doesn't disrupt anything. It just is, it's stable, it's shiny. It's universally recognized as valuable. And you don't also build a future with gold. It's not a growth asset. And I feel like the same thing is true with Tom Brady. Like no one is getting with Tom Brady being like, yeah, we're gonna be together forever. You're just with him for a moment. And because he is a store of value until you are ready for your next move. So I really feel like we need to think about Tom Brady, not as a growth stock. He's not a risky bet. He is the flight to safety. He is that shiny store of value that you park your feelings in while you figure out what's next. He doesn't really have any yield, just like gold. You don't earn anything from it. It just basically like stops the bleeding and looks good in the meantime. Because let's be real, when you're coming off a loss, the last thing that you want is another risky investment. You want something liquid, stable, shiny, that looks good. And right now in the breakup market, Tom Brady is basically the gold standard. So remember, store of value, not a growth asset, but something that's just like good in the portfolio, nice to have if you could afford it, but not what you're looking for. you're going to retire with. Our second story on the market report is about everyone's favorite boy with a lower back tattoo, Ben Affleck. Yes, Netflix is acquiring Interpositive, the AI filmmaking startup that he co-founded, in a deal that could reach $600 million, making it one of the streaming giant's largest acquisitions ever. Oh, and the entire 16-person team is going to join Netflix, and Affleck is going to serve as a senior advisor. But here's what makes this actually interesting. Interpositive has been in stealth mode since Affleck started it in 2022. I don't know about you, but I didn't know Ben Affleck was quietly building an AI company for three years. You mean the guy best known for being photographed looking miserable at Dunkin' Donuts was secretly a tech founder? What? But it's not generative AI that's going to replace writers and directors. It's a post-production tool for filmmakers. So in a moment where Hollywood is like, terrified of AI, Affleck built something with the message of like, we're here to protect creative choice, we're not going to replace it. And I feel like that's a really calculated good move. And what's also sort of exclusive is that Netflix plans to offer access to Interpositive's tech only to its creative partners, but won't sell it commercially. So I feel like it's like another reason that people will want to work with Netflix. Very interesting stuff. And also like, shout out to Ben Affleck and Jen Gardner, because she just like had her company go public on the New York Socket. exchange. So I just feel like as a divorced couple, they are killing it. But mostly I'm obsessed with their son Samuel because he wants to ask them for $2,000 to buy shoes. But that's for another market report. Okay, our third story honestly makes me really nervous and should be illegal. Like you guys know that I hate buy now pay later. Well, my new enemy of state is prediction markets. And specifically how they are targeting women. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal about this. Female users now make up 26% of college shoes participant base, which is up 13% from just 10 months ago. And the way that they have been doing this is by paying female influencers to post their trades publicly. And they have been throwing events built around pop culture themes. And of course, hiring Kendall Jenner for a Super Bowl ad didn't hurt either. This honestly sucks because it's working like Kalshi's Oscar trading volume hit 48.4 million this year. And Polly market hit $57 million. And I just feel like the end game is sort of, you're right money. And this is something that we do need to stay away from and villainize at all costs. And it's annoying because they took the thing that we enjoy as women pop culture, and they made it about predictions and having opinions and turned it into a customer acquisition strategy. But obviously, as a sipper, you're too smart to fall for this. We keep our money in the actual market, not the prediction market. Do not bet on things by stocks instead. Trust me, it's going to be tough. And I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. Data shows that you are literally throwing away money when you do this, like you will not win. And then the fourth story is unfortunately, the war of Iran, which is ongoing, no end in sight as a Monday morning, oil prices are through the roof, the Trump administration is giving us no clear understanding of what their plan is here. I don't even know if they have a plan. And if you're like me, you probably feel a little helpless because there's not really much to do except pray for our troops and the Iranian people book flights as soon as possible because prices are going up and honestly fill our gas tanks because prices are also going up on that too. But you know, oil shocks are not going to just stay at the pump here. Like shipping costs are also going to go up. Consumer goods are going to go up. Like inflation that we finally thought was cooling down is going to come back with vengeance. And I just feel like this is the worst because people just started feeling okay a little bit about prices again. And this is the thing that is going to unravel that. And so I don't know, there's not a lot that you can control right now. One lever that we do have is our personal finances. So I would say like lock in prices where you can if you can buy in bulk now, good idea. And don't make emotional money decisions. Remember that like this macro chaos is exactly when having a financial foundation also matters the most. So bulk up that emergency fund and make sure that you focus on creating your own safety net. Okay, so let's get into our interview with Bell Burden. Because you guys, this was like the best interview that I've ever done. I think that my jaw was on the floor the entire time. She is truly so vulnerable. I learned so much about her. I feel like she's teaching us all something so important about finances. And if you have not read her book, Strangers or listen to it, she does audiobook. It's so good. Make sure that you do that because it is like, you'll finish it in a day or two. It's so good. You're going to binge it. Okay, let's go talk to Bell. Welcome to Financial Tea, Bell Burden. I'm so happy to be here. I'm really excited about this. This is like my white whale interview. Like I, I am so excited that you're here. Your book, Strangers, I literally read it, I think in one day, every, I cannot go to, to a dinner, to talk to anyone, like, without someone saying, Oh, have you read this book? Oh, I just finished Strangers. Like, everyone recommending it to the other person as though I don't know. As though I wasn't like, you know, you were very early. I was early. I was I won't let it be known. Like I knew about this book. And like, it is on the cover. We have it over here. It says a memoir of marriage. But why I wanted to have you on the show is because to me, it is a memoir of money. Yes, I agree with that, Haley. I think it is, um, probably the most important storyline in the book, which is part of why I was so excited to come on your podcast, because, um, I think you're doing such important work in, um, getting an entire generation excited about being, um, uh, having autonomy over their money. Um, and that's really an important part of my growth in this book. For the three people listening who haven't read your incredible memoir, and it's going to be zero by the time this airs, because they're going to hear this and want to read it. I'm going to read it. Can you give us a high level of strangers and what happened? Sure. So, um, it opens in March of 2020, the second week of COVID lockdown. Um, I believed I was very happily married. I was on Martha's Vineyard with my husband and my two daughters, very cozy time. Um, and I got a call from someone saying that his wife was having an affair with my husband. And initially my husband was very apologetic, but by the morning he had packed a he was happy, but he wasn't. Um, he thought he wanted our life, but I didn't, he didn't. And he walked out of our house and left the Island and became someone I did not recognize at all. Um, but part of my story is a financial story and what I agreed to before we got married and our prenup, what I went through in our divorce to keep what was mine. Um, and then how I rebuilt my own, uh, financial autonomy after divorce. Let's start like with what your life was like before the divorce, because you were living like a fabulous New York life, sort of like we had apartment in Tribeca. We had house of Martha's Vineyard. Like where were we vacationing? Like give us like the scoop of like what the lifestyle was. Sure. I think it was, um, a life that people would envy. Um, we were married, we got married in, uh, 1999. We had three children. He's like hot, tall lawyer. You meet him. You're like, yeah, like, okay. Um, I had a boyfriend when we met, um, who was unemployed. And then I started working. I was at a big corporate law firm called Davis Polk in Midtown Manhattan. And I started working in the group that my future husband was in. And we started working on an IPO together. Um, and we got engaged within three months, got married within the year. Uh, the kids went to private school in the city downtown. Um, we went on vacations to Hawaii, to the Caribbean, that kind of thing. Um, my husband left the law and, um, started working. Um, for a fund of funds and then, uh, moved to a hedge fund. Um, and he had this big career that we were very, very focused on. It kind of became the family enterprise. Yeah. It was all like in service of like all in service, like let him do his work. Like it's like came first. Yes. Always. So crazy. And, um, I had decided to, um, keep my law license. I worked for a time, um, for, for my brother. And I always did volunteer work, um, sometimes actually doing legal cases, but I was very focused on the kids on raising the kids. Um, so yes, like his work came first. It came before parent teacher conferences. He worked on weekends. Um, it was the family enterprise. Talk us through what it was like to go through the prenup process with him. Yes. So I, um, had two trust funds. My father had died two years earlier in 1990. My dad was a spender. He was a real spender. So actually when he died, he was very much in debt. We sold his company and we ended up being fine, but I had trusts from my grandfather on my mother's side and my grandfather on my father's side. And, um, my family was, was known in New York, um, you know, in some circles. And so when I met my future husband and we fell in love, um, he had almost no money and I had these two big trust funds. So there was sort of this inequity. And my mother, when she inherited money from her stepfather, made my brother and I sign a contract, actually, agreeing that the three of us would have prenups when we got married. And my brother and I did not even have serious relationships at that point. But we had agreed to this, which in retrospect was actually quite smart because I just said I have to have a prenup. I signed an agreement that I would have a prenup. Really smart, but he was very upset by it. He did not want to, you know, he felt like he was this young man arriving to this relationship. And like the prenup was a statement that I needed to be protected from him. Which you did. Yes. Which, yeah, it turns out I did. But that was hurtful to him. As prenups are, can be very hurtful to people entering a marriage because they feel like they're suddenly suspected of something. But really, they are a way. They are a way to kind of force a conversation about money and what will happen if the relationship ends, which I think we should all be having that conversation. So my lawyer sent my then fiance a copy of a prenup, a very standard prenup, same one my brother and his wife had signed. And he got his own lawyer. And then they sat on it for a while, for a good two months. That would make me so anxious. Yes, it made me really anxious. Yeah. So the wedding date is coming up. It's coming, right? It's coming really fast. It's like three weeks away. That's really crazy. Invites are out. And it's like. Invites are out. And you feel so much pressure. Yeah. You're like, well, I want to do this. Yep. And if we don't sign it. Then it's a huge. It's a huge problem. The change that he asked for was that anything earned during the marriage would not be marital property, would not be split unless we affirmatively decided to put it into joint name. So the way. He explained it made sense to me. He said, we, you know, we'll just keep what's ours, but then we'll make decisions during the course of the relationship, whether to put things in joint name or not. So it made sense to me, but I called my lawyer who's at a big New York law firm and he said, do not do that. That is really not smart. Yeah. Um, you're planning to be home with kids. He's going into finance. This could really hurt you, but I'm listening to him. I'm looking at the man I love who's going to be my husband, the father of my children. He was a very mild mannered, very kind man, and I trusted him and I wanted to get married. Yeah. So after some conversation, my lawyer said, okay, if this is what you want and we made the change and I have all the, you know, black lines and everything from that time where I made this change and, um, I was married to my husband for 20, almost 21 years and, um, for those entire 21 years, I somewhere in my life. I knew that change was really bad for me. And you know, when you're like, just have something that like continues to bother you and worry you and haunts you, even if it's not at the forefront front of your brain. Um, and I knew it was there and we had discussed, we discussed over the years getting rid of it, but we never actually got rid of it. That was something I thought was so interesting in the book was you had a big financial aha moment. Yes. Um, which I talk a lot about in my book that's coming out. Which is like, I think every person has to have when they decide to take control of their finances and we'll get to what that was for you. Yeah. But like, before that you were definitely like the, you know, veil was over your eyes. You were, it was, you know, you were living, like you were, you weren't aware of things in the same way that you are now. Um, correct. Yes. Yes. And I think that there was something, I think, cause my father had died. Um, I think that there was something romantic almost about handing this over. Um, it felt like this, he was, he was like the man in the gray flannel suit who had arrived. Yes. And he said to me, I'm going to take care of you. So there was something that felt like wonderful about that. And I think also because of our financial inequity, I was conscious of wanting to make him feel good and feel important. Oh. And I think as women, we do that, right? We totally do. It becomes connected to their self esteem. Yeah. Yeah. You want to make yourself a little smaller. A smaller. They can feel bigger. So they can feel bigger. And for us, that was really around money. Cause he had all that trauma too. He came in with his own shit. He came in with his own financial trauma, which was that his family essentially went broke when he was a child and he grew up around a lot of wealth, but really the fight, this, the family really struggling and trying to hide it. Trying to hide it. Yes. And like trying, you know, going to expensive schools, but not being able to pay bills, that kind of thing. Yeah. So that was in him. Um, and over the course of our marriage, as I kind of handed that off to him, you start to, or I started to believe I couldn't understand it, even though I'm a former corporate lawyer. I paid our bills, but I, and I signed our tax returns, but I didn't read them and I didn't ask him what his bonuses were. And I just trusted and trusted and trusted. And I. And I just trusted and trusted. It's just so complicated. Only he can understand it. Yes. A hundred percent. I think that that is like so textbook. Yes. Before you have that financial aha, where you just sort of feel like this is not for me. I don't have the right DNA for it. I used to, my version of it was like, I, I didn't think that like, like there was always like those girls in school, like the perfect handwriting and like the organized backpacks and like, they were just so on top of things. And I was always such a mess. Like I was, you know, the most like type B person using my passport to get into the bar. Cause I don't know where my license was. Like, like they're just everything pointed to like, this is not a girl who's going to be good with her money. Right. So I thought, okay, fine. Let, uh, my dad will take care of it. I'll marry someone who will do it, whatever. And then whatever, something happens, you get, you have that moment or something and you realize, okay, no, actually I have to do this. Right. You're forced. You're forced. And then you actually realize, wait, this is not that hard. It's not that hard. I've been catfished. It's not hard at all. Like, and it's fantastic to be in charge of it. Both things. So true. But the not that hard. The hard is like the biggest one where I'm like, you could have totally understood a tax return. Like, come on. I, I did. I worked on like, like, you know, prospectuses. Like I can read a tax return. A million percent. But he would hand it to me and I would sign it. And he probably was like, Ooh, like you don't like, it's not for you. Yeah. It's very subtle. Yes. But there was a way it happens, but they're like, it's abuse. Don't worry about it. A hundred percent. Quits makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton. And washable silk. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted and made to be worn again and again. Quits also has premium stretch denim, leather bags, footwear, and beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry. I personally have been living in my cotton cashmere rugby polo sweater this summer. 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So even on the days your schedule is completely out of control, eating well is still achievable. Let's eat real. Head to factormeals.com slash mrsdowjones50off and use code mrsdowjones50off to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until 10-31-2026. See website. For more details. Do you think that when he added that provision into the prenup, he knew you well enough to know that like you would never have those conversations with him about like, oh, well, with this specific deal, we'll make it so it's joint property? I think that it's hard to know how much he was planning. Yeah. That must be hard to think about. Yeah. And I try to hold both things in my head that we really loved each other and had a very happy marriage for a long period of time. But that he was. Pretty much programmed from long before the time he met me to really protect himself financially. And I think that was a play in the prenup. I think that was a play at every stage in our marriage. And I think that when he earned money, like when he got a bonus, there was no part of him that was ever going to put it into joint name. Like you were using your trust to pay for the children's school, for the houses, and he was building. Like a vintage Rolex collection. He was building his, um, the things that he kept. cared about. And I come from a family where people are just very generous. We always pick up the checks. We like, you know, and, and the men are very generous. And I assume that that's what I was marrying as well. And when we bought our apartment in Tribeca in 2000, I had to apply, essentially write a formal letter to the trustees of the trust to release funds for me to buy the apartment. You had to like make the case that it was a legitimate purpose. Um, and they released the funds. Um, and instead of actually the trust could have actually bought the apartment and would have stayed in trust. Um, but I had the funds withdrawn and I immediately decided to put both of our names on the deed because I thought that's what you do in America. And I thought we were both going to share everything. So your listeners, your viewers are probably seeing where that's, this is going if they haven't read the book, which is that I did that again with my other trust for our house. So I have moved all of my primary assets into real estate. And again, with the house and Martha's Vineyard, I put both our names on the deed. And I felt like I was doing something so important for our marriage, for our family, that I was curious about it. And I was like, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't something for him where he had lost real estate and that I was giving him a home and this, you know, this wonderful thing that I, because I wasn't working that I could contribute this. Um, meanwhile, I was splitting all expenses too. And he was making you like talk through every expense, but he never had to like explain that the accounting. So crazy with credit cards, we had a bookkeeper. And so he, and I just, I assume, he was doing it for the bookkeeper too, but I would write down what every single charge was for drive me crazy. Yeah. It, it, it was like a subtle thing that, um, feels protective. Like we're, we, he was very, like had a strong hand on our spending, like did not want us to spend too much, um, which felt like protection. But the flip side of that is that it is controlling. It's really controlling of what, um, what I, you know, what, it just was like these eyes on me and I didn't have the same eyes on him. And it's also so interesting because like you were, you didn't need to have any eyes on you because you had your own money. Like it's like, okay, I'll, I'll have some eyes on me. Like whatever you want, babe. Like, yes, exactly. Yes. I totally got that. I think that's such an easy trap to fall into. At what point do you think that like your partnership did turn sort of into financial abdication? Like, was there a specific moment you're saying it sort of happened slowly you like stopped, you know, you realize you had stopped looking at the statements or was it, you know, the slow fade into the background? I don't know if I can point to a specific moment, but it happened fairly quickly. You know, it happened like as soon as we started having kids and I was focused on that. Um, and I think I would attend financial meetings, like quarterly meetings. Um, but I always felt like the financial advisors were speaking to him. I hear that all the time from people. Yep. Yeah. And with language that I couldn't quite follow. Yeah. Um, and I now have a financial advisor who speaks to me, you know, by the way, like if you are in any situation with like a financial professional or a lawyer or anything where you are accountant that you feel like they aren't making sense to you, ask questions or get a different one. I agree. I had to switch accountants. I've had to switch lawyers because I'm like, look, I'm the boss. Yes. I'm paying the bill. Like I'm going to get someone who can talk to me the way that I understand, like, that's okay to ask for. I was at an event with Kelly Roland from who has like a crazy financial story. And she said that like a big moment in her financial life that changed everything was when she just started to feel really comfortable, like looking stupid, like asking those questions, but you do feel stupid. You're like, I don't know what, you know, this return means. And I don't know what, you know, this bond means. And just asking those questions. And I finally, I have someone now who I can ask any question, nothing is too dumb and she's never condescending and it really feels so great. But at that time, so the, like I was focused on kids when I would go to meetings, I didn't really, no one was speaking to me. I didn't really understand what was happening. And that just builds on itself. That really builds on itself. And I don't think I'm alone in this. I've now been at book groups and different things, contemporaries who have done the same thing. And what's exciting to me is they are now pushing their partners to have more transparency, to go to the meeting, to hopefully read the tax returns. I think for some people it will lead to change. For others, there will be resistance from their partners. I think there is a discomfort when we ask a lot of questions and want to be included in the conversation. I think that's what's important. I think that's what's included in one, because that means you have a real partnership and that can be uncomfortable for some men in particular. If you ever got married again, you would obviously get a firmer prenup, but would you see it as a red flag if someone acted the way that your husband did? Oh, a hundred percent. I don't think I will get married again. I feel like the idea of commingling assets again is really unappealing to me. I'm so happy being in control of my own. So if I was in another relationship, I think I would keep it very separate. But yes, I do see it as a red flag. And I think it doesn't mean your husband is going to walk out the way mine did. But if you ask the questions and ask to be included and ask to understand where the assets are and whose name is on them, and they don't want to tell you, that is a real red flag. And you should really talk to a professional to try and understand what's going on financially in your marriage. Two things. First of all, what you don't realize if you're married is that you have the right to know all these things. And it's like you legally have that right. Even if your husband or your partner is being shady, you're married, you can look. And especially if you're filing a joint return. A hundred percent. It's hard to be a cautionary tale, but I'm also happy to be a cautionary tale because I think what happened to me, if you read the book or just listen to my story, I had every reason to trust every reason to feel like it was all going to be okay. And I ended up in my divorce, having it threatened until 45 minutes before trial that I would lose half of my house and half of my apartment and have to sell them. And that he had accumulated a lot of assets in his own name, a fortune really. And he left the marriage with those assets. And luckily I was able to keep my homes. Uh, first of all, I want you to know that I was in, I was in Martha's Vineyard during COVID. So we could have, we could have gone on walks because I was going on so many walks and it was so lonely and like weird. And it wasn't it weird. It was so weird there. And so like, like, let's just talk about the COVID pandemic. Like everyone always says in sex in the city, the city is the fourth character, the fifth character. Like I feel like COVID was like the third person in your marriage sort of. So like, how did the backtrack of the backdrop of the pandemic affect your experience? I think it was um, an accelerator and an intensifier, um, in all ways. Um, I do believe I probably would have gotten that phone call anyway. The marriage probably would have ended anyway, but it just kind of added this fuel to it that just, I think made him really snap and, and leave. Cause there's no escape route. There was no, he was going to be stuck in that house with me, with us doing therapy on zoom and like, it would have been working on it. He was like, Oh, don't want to do it. I don't want to do that. But what about if I left? Exactly. And that would have been not fun, but I was prepared to do it. And then for me, um, but even not like you would have done all the way, you would never have left him. I don't, it's hard to know. I would have felt so betrayed by this affair. It's hard to know if I would have stayed in it. It really would have, I would have tried. And if he had come to that conversation, very regretful and saying, I really want to stay in it. So stressed. Yeah. I want to be different. Exactly. Then I would have, then I, exactly. I would have tried and I was in love with him. I love, really loved him. Um, and then the pandemic really, um, made it emotionally a lot harder for me because my family and friends could not get to me. I wish I'd known you were there. I was all alone. I would have been over. We could have done our walks together. Cause I love that. Like I will, we'll get to that, but like the way that you picked yourself up, I just feel like it's such a compelling part of the book. Yes. And literally had to pick myself up. I talk about the bathroom floor is kind of a metaphor, but I was literally on the bathroom floor because it's like the one place that kids can't find you. It's cold. You feel like you're not going to fall through the earth. Um, but, um, the, the benefit of the pandemic was that I had this protected time. Like I would walk down the street crying and I didn't have to go to school pickup. I didn't have to go to meetings. I could just really walk through the pain. Um, and like feel it, all of it, like every inch of it. And I think if I was in New York, like having to get dressed, I'm like, yeah, I would have, it would have been, I would have been more. avoidant of it, I think I would have had to, um, have an audience for the whole thing, which would have been really painful. So in a way, even though I think looking back on that time, it's so painful, there's something that feels like almost lovely about it, which sounds crazy, but just that I had this piece on this beautiful Island where we watched, you know, spring arrive and, and the nature and the ospreys, which I write about, um, there was, it was the right place for me to go through this. I think for women who are going through something similar, like it is so easy to distract yourself. Yes. Cause who wants to deal with this? It's, it's so unpleasant. It's like anything, but let me like do literally anything, but, but it's like, that's the only way through. The only way through is like right through it. And you had, of course you had your therapist, but like you really did the work yourself. So like what advice would you give? In terms of like how to face something so head on? Cause it's quite brave. It was, um, it, it was, it could have gone either direction, right? You could really just like, it was very hard to get, yes, get out of bed. It was very hard to just move and keep going. I decided not to drink, which I would recommend to anybody. Cause I just felt like it was going to make me sadder during that period. Um, I do not like the phone, but I stayed in touch with really close friends who called me every single day. Um, my family, particularly my stepmother, who's a family therapist was very helpful to me. She's amazing. Um, really great advice. And then a friend really encouraged me to start walking. And I think there is something very meditative, very like soothing about walking. And I would go one direction, eight miles one day and the other direction, eight miles the next day. And just every single day I did it. And the other thing that really made a huge difference for me was, um, starting to work again, which was doing, I do pro bono immigration cases and I had to file a case in family court in April. He left in March and March. And I was a mess at first. Um, but I think even just like refilling the paper tray, like having to write something, having to do a zoom, it just brought me back to life a little bit to who I am and to the writing that ended up figuring later. Um, I think all of those, those things really helped, but I'll, I'll say one other thing, which was critical to my recovery, I think, which was about a week into it. He said, I think we should tell people that our, um, split was amicable, that it was a joint decision. And I knew in that moment, I'm shy and private. You would have expected me to agree to that. Cause it would be more flattering to say we both wanted to get divorced. Yes. But I just was like, I will not survive this if I lie about it. I cannot lie about it. So I said no to him, which shocked him. And then whenever I ran into people as they came back to the Island, I would just be completely honest and say, he left, he walked out and I don't know why, and I'm not doing well. And that, that was a theme that continued because it led to me writing about it. Um, but I just have faced this openly and honestly from the first days. And to me, that felt like life and death. And I think it's why I have ended up where I am, um, instead of hiding it, instead of like carrying the shame of it. Um, I just have been really, I think it's made all the difference. And talk to me a little bit, like obviously your ex-husband's betrayal is really at the crux of the story, but there were a lot of other betrayals that followed. Like there is something really weird that happens when you go through something like this, which is like other people's reactions. Like, I'm thinking of your gynecologist who, while you can speak to this, while you were in the stirrups was like, well, if you were working, he would never have left you. Like, are you kidding me? The guy at dinner next to you, like talk to us about these crazy characters. There are, I think when, and this is true for anyone going through a divorce, you suddenly go from being one thing, which is like a married woman with kids and you're like included in things and you're safe and people know what to do with you to being something very different, which is. It was in my case, not just a single woman, a divorced woman or divorcing woman, but an abandoned woman. And some people are so wonderful and move towards you and like embrace you. And then it makes other people uncomfortable and they don't know what to do about it. So I had, um, situations at the club where I'm a member where, um, that were very hurtful, you know, people saying it wasn't clear who should remain a member. Um, I had things in New York where people were, you know, helping my ex find a lawyer, a shark lawyer. Um, just when you want to hear from someone, I just helped your husband find like the hardest, toughest lawyer, the toughest lawyer in New York. Um, exactly. So crazy. It was really, I just, and I was so, um, I was raw and vulnerable and you, you could say like, oh, she was so sensitive, but I look back on them and I'm like, no, that was like, really, that was hard. Um, and the gynecologist absolutely said that. And I, other, other people said the same thing about working. And I think people do that because it makes them feel safe, right? Like to say, oh, I'm working, so it's not going to happen to me. Um, I have a new gynecologist. You'll be happy to hear. I did not go back. Yes. We could talk to the other one. So yes, there were these smaller betrayals that really, um, put me off balance and like put me back on the floor for, for a period of time. But I just kept going. And then I had to move into the divorce, actual divorce, um, which was its own sort of series of shocks. Um, and, um, you know, financial awakenings that were painful and hard, um, to face. Um, but getting to the other side of that was the best thing. Yeah. I mean, Stella got her group back. Yes. Stella's got a Hollywood movie deal. Yeah. But like you've publicly owned your financial shame, which is really rare. So well, actually let's start first at like the actual divorce. Yes. So you, I, at what point did you realize, like, you were obviously really upset that he left, you were heartbroken, but then was there also like a part of you where you were like, ooh, and I may be totally fucked financially. Yes. Like, when did you realize that? And like, talk through like how that played out because the divorce was messy. The divorce was, it was, um, surprisingly quick, but it was, it was quick and messy and, um, uh, terrifying for me. Terrifying for me as a reader. Yes. Really, really terrifying. So I knew that there was the prenup. He was looking for the prenup within a month. He came to back to Martha's Vineyard and was like rifling through all the stuff. You were like, say hello to your daughter. Right after telling the kids about the divorce. Um, uh, he found the prenup. Um, he asked the court to enforce the prenup. And I realized, and at the same time, I realized that I was like, oh my God, we're going to have to do this again. I'm going to have to do this again. And at the same time, we get discovery, you know, so all of his accounts, um, that are not yet marked to market or anything, but there, I get a sense of the wealth that he has built over these 20 years. Which is probably like eight figures of wealth at least. Yes. Yes. Um. I know we can't say exact things, but I think we can say eight figures. Yes. But at least eight figures for sure. Yeah. At least we're saying. Could be none. Um, and he, um, he had built that up and every account I just started, you know, I was going through discovery and I was like, every single account. Is in his name. Like, of course, it's all in his name and none of it's in my name and my assets are in the, in this real estate. And, um. And it's totally legal that this happened because I said that it was okay. I signed it. My name is on that prenup. Yeah. Um, and I had some assets outside of those trusts, but his is dwarfed, dwarfed. And then when he asked for the prenup to be enforced, he was claiming his half of both his properties and I did not have enough money to buy him out of those properties. So I would have had to sell them while I'm trying to keep my kids' lives stable. Um, and I'm always conscious of saying, as I talk about this, that still my situation is so much better than 99% of the world. Like I had cushion, I had, you know, I, it was going to be okay. I knew I was going to be okay, but it was very, um, devastating because I thought we were pulling in the same direction. I thought he valued my contributions to his career, to our family over 20 years. And when I saw what had happened and what he was asking the court to do, I just thought he never valued it. He never, he is, he wants to take every single thing that he's entitled to and is not concerned at all, about my financial wellbeing. And in fact, Mae viewed this as almost a contest to win. Like he is, he is playing to win in this. And I felt tremendous shame because this was money that my father and grandfather had given me and entrusted to me, and I was going to lose half of it. Um, and I had been in this marriage for all these years and had never asked the questions I had to ask. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. to equalize the fact that I was at home and that I had put assets into our homes and that my family had paid for all of tuition and all those things. And I just had really gotten comfortable and avoidant and had not really thought about what would happen if the marriage ended. And I think everyone should, no matter how happily married they are, they should look into what will happen to them if the marriage ends. Well, we say that a prenup is like health insurance. It's like you don't get it being like, yeah, let me get sick. I really want to get sick. You got it in case you get sick. And like for that little glimpse of moment, you think about, okay, what would happen if I did get sick? And you make sure that you're protected. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And it needs to be non-emotional. Like in a way, I sort of think that people should steal your line of like, ooh, I signed something. Like if you don't feel confident enough to ask for a prenup, just say that like your grandma. Exactly. I promised my grandma that I have to do it. Yeah, my grandma. I'm so cool. Sorry. Yikes. Okay. So I think it's really interesting that with the prenup, he waited till three weeks before to get you the final draft. And then with the settlement agreement of the divorce, it was two months before the court date that finally he sent you something about, okay, like we can settle. Do you think that was a strategy? Like why do you think that he was always like playing it so fast and loose and last minute? Yes, I think it was actually weeks in both cases. So like weeks, yeah, weeks. He requested the change of the prenup weeks before we were married and said that he was willing to settle weeks before, probably just two weeks before we had our court date. Oh, my two weeks is so different than two months. Sorry. So I think it does put you in a position where you are, more likely to cave. So I can't read his mind, but it definitely in both cases put me at a disadvantage to have it so time compressed. So perhaps, I mean, people in business have all sorts of negotiating strategies and that might've been one. Yeah. You took away your leverage. Took away my leverage, which is why I was really proud of how I handled the settlement discussions in the divorce because I just stayed calm. Yeah. You were so unemotional. It was amazing. And I really knew what was important to me and what I could give up. And I just stayed really focused on that and not, and was very careful not to inflame him. Do you think though, if you had asked him something while you were in the marriage about this stuff, he would have responded well? Like, I feel like it would have, that would have just led to more mayhem. Like that could have even led to divorce in that moment because he was so financially like protective. I don't like. I could have lived in that victim place. Okay. He's been self-protective. He has not been looking out for me. I've ended up in this place. I could have ended up just in that angry place. But what switched it for me was really looking at my own decisions and not in a like, I'm to blame for this. I'm to blame for this divorce. But in what decisions did I make over 20 years, both about finances, about the prenup, about career, about his career that put me in this place? That where I am right now in 2020, like what, what did I decide that put me here? And when I did that, it kind of unlocked me, right? It just kind of switched the whole conversation in my head from him to me. And I think it's really important to like take responsibility for your own decisions. And, um, and that allowed me to really look forward again and to, to say, what do I, where do I need to get in this divorce to be okay? Um, and where do I, what do I want my life to look like going forward? And I started to have this glimpse of myself, um, not as a sad, discarded wife, but as like a matriarch of her family, who's like fully in charge, you know, and is going to welcome grandchildren and is going to be like, um, sexy older, a rich woman. With a, with a boyfriend. Yes, exactly. Chic French divorcee, as my sister-in-law said. We love it. Um, and, uh, once I did that and I knew, I knew pretty early on that I wanted to return to my maiden name that felt really important to me. And then I could just kind of see, I could see where I needed to get in the divorce to the point where I, when he finally kind of said he was willing to settle, I kind of, I knew I had a wonderful lawyer. Um, but I had to kind of navigate, to get there. And once I got there, I knew that I wanted to be completely financially separate from him. I think some, in some divorces, women stayed tied to the ex because they paid for kids and they, um, and I didn't want that. I was like, send me a check for child support, but I, otherwise we are completely separate. Um, and then I had to start the process of rebuilding, which is really challenging and a headache, um, to like refinance your mortgage. To change the deeds, to change your, um, social security, to like all those things that you have to do, especially when you change your name. But, um, so busy. Yeah. It's really, really hard. But I found that like each time I accomplished something, each time, like something arrived in the mail, like my new driver's license with my name on it, I felt like just this surge of energy because it was like autonomy. And that was so exciting. You know, to be in charge. And you had never really been in charge. Like it was almost like before you got married, you were just looking for someone to be in charge of you. Yes. I had a very brief period of not being like a daughter and, and earning my own salary and, and paying my own rent to being a wife, you know? And so that I, I, I'm finally that person now, you know? So cool. Yeah. I mean, you talked a little bit about like what disentangling financially from your ex-husband entailed, but did you have to? Did you have to tighten the belt? Like were, like, what were some of like the sacrifices that you had to make when you were going through the divorce financially? I would say I had to really budget a little bit more. Um, but the truth is that he was very tight with money. Yeah. So it's not like you were used to being like, so. No, he was not like buying jewelry for me. He was not, we were not, um, flying first class. We were not. So it was a pretty restrained. And then you saw the numbers of his accounts and you were like, are you getting any jewelry? Are you kidding? So it was not one first class ticket. It was a very nice life, but it was not like this extravagant life. The extravagant life I thought was coming, right? Like he was about to make partner at a hedge fund where the money would be enormous. Um, and I never, I had to give up that fantasy of that life. That life was not coming for me. Um, and will not be coming for me, but, um, I was able, yes, this life is definitely better. Okay, guys, when I first started, Mrs. Dow Jones, I was selling a lot of merch and it was a business idea that I was sitting on. 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That's E-R-N-E-S-T-A.com. willing to settle, but only on his terms and without our lawyers involved. So we had an email exchange, um, very, you know, I had to be very careful and what I said and didn't say and, and making sure that he felt that I was agreeing to his terms, but I kept my eye on the prize, which was keeping my homes and having enough child support to be able to support my kids. People need to plan with the end in mind. Cause this is like, it's so, I know so many women who are in similar situations where it's like, they've had kids with guys that they didn't have good legal agreements with, or like just any of this and they don't think it through. And then they're in the situations and it is so hard to get there. And I had given up the fantasy of having any settlement from him. He was not going to give me any of his money. So, um, I just kept my eye on those prizes and we ended up there and we signed an agreement 45 minutes before trial. Um, and I made a decision right in that moment as I signed that I was just not going to live in this divorce anymore. Which comes as a surprise because I did write a book and I'm talking to you about it now. Yeah, but that's not what the book's about. But I really don't, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what I didn't get or what was lost financially. Um, I, I really just focus on what I have now and all of those things. And the writing came in soon afterwards, because I think that in divorces like this, a lot of different narratives float around about what happened. And I just wanted to write down the truth of it. And then I had wanted to be a writer when I was, in high school and I had an older classmate in college tell me I couldn't write. And I stopped writing for 30 years, um, became a lawyer instead. It's all it takes. Like some guy who forgot about it 10 seconds later, I changed the course of my life. You really caught it. Okay. I guess I'll just stop. Um, and, um, so I got interested in the art of it again and I, and like how to build suspense and all those things. And I submitted it to the slush email, um, at, modern love, which is the times column. It's been around for a long time thinking nothing would come of it. But nine months later, they picked it to run it. We went back and forth in editing. They asked me to get my husband's, my then ex-husband's reaction to the piece, which was shocking to me. Um, he ended up approving it, which shocked me even more. It ran in July of, um, 2023. And I thought that was, like this wonderful finish line. I was a published writer. And then I didn't imagine anything after that. And then, um, two editors contacted me and said, this needs to be a book. You need a literary agent. And a friend said, well, you're not going to write a book. And I thought, actually, I am going to write a book. I have much more to say. And so I got an agent and then, um, we, uh, worked on a proposal and had a bidding war for the book and, um, sold the book. And, um, uh, started writing it. You were at that point, a no-name writer. How did it become a bidding war? And what did the book deal look like? Well, the proposal that we prepared was both like the modern love texts. And then I had written a few other things, um, about my father dying about the Ospreys. And we all, we kind of combined it into like about 40 pages, which is what, um, uh, book proposals often are if you haven't written the entire manuscript. Um, and then my agent went out to a number of different editors at different publishing houses and, um, they all submit bids. And then we, we, um, decided on the best, uh, combination of bid and editor. That are so important. So then I signed a contract and, um, I had a deadline, um, and I was given an advance and I'm a real nerd. And once I was given, you get quarter on signing quarter on turning in your first draft and then a quarter on hardcover and a quarter on, um, paperback. So, but once I had money in my account, I just thought I have got to execute on this. So I really approached it as a full-time job. Plus I was writing like seven hours a day. And I'm going to ask you a question that might make you cringe, but I want to know how much the, how much the book deal was worth, because it is now I want to understand the finances of what happens when you like completely out earn your book deal. Do you know what I mean? I'm sure like, it's like, it's so crazy. So I probably can't give the amount, but it was definitely high six figures. Um, and, um, yes, you do not get a, you get in the contract, you're entitled to a percentage of royalties. Um, but you have to earn out, which means that you have to sell enough books so that the publisher recoups, um, what they have paid you plus their expenses. Yes. So, um, it is very rare for an author to earn out and to start. I think it's very rare for an author to start earning royalties, but my, my hope is because it's done so well and we'll hopefully continue to do well that I may. Oh, I think it will. For sure. Earning royalties. Yeah. A hundred percent. Now I'm seeing every day in the New York post that it's like a bidding war again for the movie rights. Like what does that look like? Is that you own the story completely? So like the publisher doesn't get a piece of that. Like what's the, what are the economics of turning a book into a movie? How involved are you going to be in a movie? I actually don't know how it works. Like with the publisher's rights and my rights and all, we have not gotten that far, but I do have film agents and there has been a lot of interest in, in to sell the film rights. You you're paid an option. And that option usually is a year to 18 months. Um, to, and then if they don't get it made within that period of time, they may pay you again for an option extension, which they've also agreed, um, to that price. Um, and then if the, if the film is green lit and going to be made, then you're paid for the rights. And that's all agreed to up from how much that will be. Um, and I'm learning right now, like what that range is, the, there, there has been talk of a bidding or that, that bidding war has not yet happened, but there is a lot of interest and I'm kind of figuring out, cause it's like get another, you know, it's another stage. It's another thing, you know, my kids will have to be comfortable with it. And, um, what are the economics of it? And I'm like, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the economics cause the economics have to be good enough for me to take this step. Well, first of all, what would good economics mean to you in this situation? Like what would be like your dream number for it for selling the rights? I would definitely want like a seven figure. Of course. Yeah. Like how are we talking like four mil or we want? No, I don't think I would get that. Like what? I don't know what the, what the baseline is. I actually don't know either. You would have to ask my film agents. Like we're literally not at that stage yet. So I, I don't have any, I don't have any offer that would give me a sense of that yet. I feel like it should be like, it has to be seven figures. I also could see it as a mini series. Like I sort of want more than just a movie. Like I want to like be with the character for longer. Most people see it as a film because it's just sort of this one arc. And if it was series, you'd have to add a lot more, I think to have like cliffhangers in every episode. Um, and I would like to, I don't want to write it. I don't want to spend the next years of my life writing this story. Um, and there are a lot of great screenwriters out there, but I would love to, um, stay involved and, um, be a part of scripts because there are ways that it could change that would be really uncomfortable for me. And then there are ways that it could change that would actually create some distance that would be helpful, right? Like maybe one kid instead of three kids or, you know, something like that. So it's interesting. I never, when I wrote modern love, I didn't imagine the book. And when I wrote the book, I did not imagine this stage of it. So it's really interesting. It's a, real adventure for me. And now you're going to like, have to start imagining the Oscars. Right. Exactly. Like what are we going to wear? Exactly. Um, but what has it meant for you to now have this new income stream? Like that must feel so exciting. It's really, really exciting. And when modern love came out, they sent the time, sent me a check for $500 and I have it framed and on my wall because it's the first money I've earned in a very, very long time. And it felt great. Um, and earning money on the book, on my like blood, sweat, and tears and writing this, um, feels amazing. And the fact that I could earn more and also have a life as a writer, um, with income is the most exciting thing I can imagine. I'm 56 years old. I'll turn 57 in May. And, um, I love that my life is expanding so much though, and not contracting. You know, I think you can go one of two ways as you get into later middle age. Um, and I just love that I'm going to have meaningful work and income during these years of my life. I wanted to talk a little bit about your family because of your children specifically, because some of the criticism, there's not much, but wielded against you, like is sort of in protection of your children. And so I'd love to give you the chance to respond to that critique and sort of talk a little bit about how you saw your children's place in the telling of the story and, you know, that breaking up the cycle. And I understand that criticism a lot, and it definitely came up, um, around modern love. Um, and it's the thing that affects me the most that, um, I am doing something that is bad for my kids, that it is bad for children to speak, um, so openly about a story about their father. Um, so I wrestle with that every day, but as we spoke about the generational legacy in my family and his family, his father left, my understanding is his father left the family for a period of time and came back and it was never spoken about in my family. There was a lot of male infidelity, again, never spoken about. And I think when you don't talk about these things, when you're not open about them, they get repeated across generations. They get like stored in our bones and our DNA. And I really think the only way to stop that, to stop that pattern is to be, to talk about it. But all of that said, I know it's a lot to have a book come out and it's a lot for kids and time will tell whether it's helpful for them. I've had a lot of adults write me about their experience being kids in the kind of situation that happened to me. And obviously, I don't hear from anyone, but these letters have been so poignant because they say how much it helps them to read what I've written and how much it would have helped them if their parents had been open about or tried to explain what had actually happened. Because there's always so much mystery. You're like, wait, did my dad leave? And that mystery, I think, can be not so great for kids. But we'll see. I know it may take decades to decide whether this was a good thing to do or not. I think what's interesting too is there is a consensus among readers and myself at friends I've talked about the book with that you could have been so much harsher on your ex in the writing of the book. Like you were really like, not that bad to him. Like what made you decide to take the approach you did? Because some people write a memoir and they are burning that. It's like Taylor Swift vibes, like freaking like going after them. Both in Modern Love and in the book, it felt like the equilibrium was so hard to achieve and it can tip so easily into building a case against your ex. And so I just kept taking things out. I was just like, okay, I'm going to take out that detail. Even though it's true, I'm going to take out that detail. Like wherever it was a judgment, you took it out? Yes. Or just like one more detail. Oh, he used to do this and like whatever. It's hard to not want to just like freaking go for it. But I find that there are some great divorce memoirs out there, but some of them really are building that case and they become, I think people have a right to be angry and there's a place for anger. No, but it's like it's just therapy. It becomes like kind of this, you become an unreliable narrator, I think, when you tip too far into that. And I wanted mine to be very even-handed, fair, and so much so that you kind of absorb a lot of the messages in it without really realizing it. It's like more digestible. And my hope is that it will have more of an impact. Because it's not sort of this screeching diatribe against what happened to me. Well, you are truly like have shifted so much of the narrative around money. And I think that the work that you did with this book is going to like, you told me before that it's like already shifting the culture of private schools in New York, that there's going to be financial curriculums. And you've done so much for the cause of increasing financial literacy, increasing the talk about prenups and equity in marriage and how to deal with generational wealth and generational money trauma. And just like, girl, you really did something. Thank you. That means a lot to me. And not only that, you've like really gotten yourself back on your feet. And I think that is the most epic part of the whole story, because you can't keep a good woman down. No, you can try, but you'll never succeed. We'll come back stronger. So thank you for being here, Belle. Thank you so much. And I hope I can invite her to your book. You're going to have a great movie career. Absolutely. Your premiere, sorry. Absolutely. Gwyneth Paltrow, definitely going to play you. We can't wait. On any journey using Uber, it helps to know you're getting into the right car. PIN verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride. Before the trip begins, your app gives you a unique PIN. 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