Coming up, he's back, Chris Goldble of the White Rose Resistance talking about squishy
elderboards in the churches, a pandemic in America, next.
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But I digress on that point.
So Chris, it is good to have you back on the program.
Thanks for making the time, buddy, all the way from the Rocky Mountains.
Well, thanks for having me back on, brother.
I really appreciate it.
Excited for this conversation.
So the last time we were on, we had a lot of downloads and a lot of questions that came
about what you were talking about with your story about how you were forced out as a
pastor due to squishy elderboards that are basically soft woke and they don't want
to confront.
I think you and I would agree that what we've seen since we last talked has been outright
anti-Christian and pro-demonic in the culture.
A happy and men who have not led their homes well or the culture, then give way to a cul-de-sac
Karen Jezebel generation that then say, "Hey, you know what?
If I can kill my children inside the womb, I can also strangle them with exercise bands
outside the womb or shoot them in the face or hang them from my rafters a two-year-old
in Illinois and I should be able to get off-Scott free for reasons."
Don't forget the GoFundMe.
Don't forget the GoFundMe.
Yes.
Correct.
And get a GoFundMe for it.
And part of that reason is because men are not willing to biblically put their wives
in their place and men are not willing to lead in the culture and just actually say,
your emotions do not control a household, a business, a culture or a church.
So with that as the intro, Chris, begin.
What did you want to share with us about squishy elderboards that is now legion and a pandemic
in America?
Yeah.
Thanks, buddy.
You're absolutely right.
In our last episode, we were able to talk a little bit about this in my experience.
You know, it was back in January.
I finally, after five or six months of an absolute living hell behind the scenes fighting
an elderboard that was effeminate, compromised, totally squishy, we're really living in their
own version of Plato's cave.
And for those not familiar with the analogy, Plato's cave is this idea of, you've got this
group of people who are living in this dark cave and all they know about reality are the
shadows that are projected on the wall for them.
And they think that these shadows have the actual real thing.
And I think sometimes the job of us as faith leaders and especially as pastors and undershepherds
is that it's our job to preach the entire council of God and to confront the lies and
go, no, no, no, you don't understand.
You are not engaging with the true story of reality.
That's a shadow on the wall and it's a lie.
Let me bring you out of the cave and show you what the truth with the true story is.
This is Jude talks about this in verses three and four.
Paul talks about this in Colossians two.
And man, I fought that fight against, you know, your very typical suburban squishy
board that was very insular and just, they didn't want to pastor.
They wanted to pump it.
And so after just bullying me, slandering me, gossiping me, my family, and putting us
through hell, we finally had a step away.
And so we covered that last time when I'm excited to come back and talk about this time
in part due to bookend it is, you know, we talked about what it tells us, but if we were
just to leave it there, I think we'd be doing John a disservice to the church.
I think it's incumbent that we now circle back and finish the conversation with a hopeful
promise that Jesus guarantees us and talk about what are some of the actual ways forward?
How do we, okay, this is the problem, but how do we fix this?
What do we do practically and specifically to move forward in much healthier ways?
Gotcha.
Before we get to those examples of solutions, what would you say are some of the problems
that you've seen because you are now interacting with pastors and you have for some time as
a former pastor?
Now you're working with the White Rose Resistance, your former work with TPUSA Faith.
This seems to be something that in my limited work over the last 15 years in Christian
ministry, basically, para-Christian organizations, you can tell that there are passive men
across America that are leading churches in pulpits and in elderboards and pews, and they
are legion, and there is a big problem.
What are some of the problems that you see that need to be addressed and then we'll lead
into the solutions that you have?
Yeah, that was a good question, but, and like you mentioned, you know, now I travel the
country as one of the directors of the White Rose Resistance working with my buddy
and boss, Seth Gruber, previous to that I was with Turning Point Faith and then I myself
was a lead pastor for years before that.
And as I've traveled, what I've found is that when I meet with pastors, other faith leaders,
I'm finding that my story, like you said, is legion.
That I'm finding that there's this corrosive epidemic that very few people in American
suburban churches are talking about, and it's a big part of it is the problem with the
boards.
Get into this a little bit more here in a second when I talk about solutions, but it's,
it has to do with the makeup of the boards, how they're chosen, what, what, where they
come from, what is their background, and the people who are choosing the boards, which
is the body, big B, how they are just not equipped to choose it in a biblical way and
how that just compounds issues.
And then like what I went through and what I've heard from so many other pastors from
Billings, Montana, to Durango, Colorado, you know, some of these guys breaking down and
crying in front of me and just pouring their heart out because they've gone through
similar situations, you know, these pastors are just getting chewed up and spit out.
They're getting bullied from behind the scenes.
They're being absolutely sabotaged, manipulated.
They're being gossiped about.
They're being slandered.
And all the attention is on the pastor and his family in the fishbowl.
And everybody is obsessed with the guy on the stage.
What is he doing?
What is he not doing?
What is he not saying?
Oh, I saw a look from his wife.
Oh, I saw his kid do this.
Like, it's under an absolute microscope that is chewing up and spitting out an entire
generation of pastors.
But in the meantime, most people in most churches have no idea who's even on the board.
And so you've got a lot of these guys who are functionally anonymous from the body that
they are charged with shepherding along with their fellow elder who is the pastor.
And they're not held to the same standards of accountability.
They're not being examined the same ways.
They're getting to run around in church lobbies and dark corners and gossip on the sidelines
of basketball courts just because the pastor doesn't want to obey them and isn't giving
into the manipulation.
And I'm hearing and seeing that story, John, across the country over and over again.
And like I said in the last episode, brother, if you're out there listening to this right
now, if you're one of those pastors who's living or has lived this story, I want you to know
that you're not alone.
And you're not crazy.
One of the things that my wife and I struggled with so much, John, when we were going through
this this time last year, was my wife and I were just getting beat up and going, is this
just us?
Are we the only ones that have ever gone through this?
Are we the only ones experiencing this?
And what I have learned this spring and the summer traveling around on the nation is
that we're not.
And you're right.
It's legion.
And so some of this is I just want to encourage my fellow pastors to know.
You're not alone. You're not nuts and it is a problem and we need to start talking about it.
So
when it comes to
passive men before we get to these solutions
What what are three or four things specifically that you're seeing?
That these elderboards are doing to God's anointed the shepherds that oversee the flock if you have three or four
I'd love to know and if not, what do you give me one example of what it is?
They may do that would be broad enough that it would apply to people that are listening that they may know about it and
Why do you think in your opinion your discernment?
Biblically, why do you think that this is occurring and why is it so rampant today?
Yeah, I'll just share a few examples from my own story of what they're doing. Okay, right?
So I
had examples where everything that I did in including my family my wife and my two teenage boys
Everything we did or how we did or didn't do
Every little look every little facial tick every little gesture
Was scrutinized to the end the degree
I had there's a group of ladies that we found out
Barely six months into my tenure that were just gossiping horrifically about my wife because at one point in time
She passed them in the lobby before service and in their own words
Well, she only said hello and that she kept walking
Well, what what did you want her to do not say hello and church was starting like it's it's it was stuff like that like my wife was literally
At one point speaking at our women's retreat and while she's on stage teaching the women of our church
There is a table of women a couple of whom were past were elders wives
As my wife is teaching
Gossiping and talking about our family right in front of her
Now what I experienced with the elders and some of the husbands is apparently the only person that can ever be confronted
The only person who can ever be corrected the only person that ever be rebuked is the pastor
Everybody else gets maximal grace everybody else gets glossed over everybody else gets all the excuses and rationalizations
Apply to what they're doing and how they're doing
But the pastor and his family
Everything is interpreted through the most negative asemptive lens possible
And that is a yoke that nobody could live under we we couldn't we we finally had to step away
So that's just one example another example was
You know, I was doing my best during this entire conflict or a board because we were meeting with mediators
Both from outside the church and from our denomination behind the scenes trying to get to the bottom of this rectify it fine reconciliation
And everybody just kept pointing at every little perceived knit that I had that they could pick
And blown up from an ant hill to a mountain proportion
In the meantime, I'm literally bringing receipts and pointing out and trying to
confront and correct and gently rebuke
Where maybe they had apologies to make and everything was whitewashing excused
And so there's there's an application of unequal weights and measures and that's what I was gonna say
Before you before you at me on Twitter here
I know that that we as teachers are held to a higher standard
But when you have board members who are literally going around and gossiping behind your back in between services
10 feet behind you as you were talking to personers
That's bad and that needs to be confronted when you have a board member
Who jumped up at me and tried to physically intimidate me and stand over me and yell at me in the middle of a board meeting
That must be confronted and not just well, we're just going to gloss over and move forward
And we're instead going to focus on your tone this one time like stuff like that was happened in me and my family
constantly and while I was trying to abide by Matthew 18 and go hey listen what happens
Inside the room during a board meeting stays here
Those guys were absolutely running around gossiping sharing leaking everything leaking to their wives
I was running around leaking it and so it was this
You know, it's like Churchill's old saying John
You know, a lie gets halfway around the world before truth has a chance to put on its pants
And there I was month later and the well had already been poisoned with my people in the pews
Because they had heard all the gossip and slander and the false narratives and so the false narrative was
Chris's arrogant and he's the one who's wrong and he's not abiding by the elders
And the reason that that narrative was allowed to permeate through the water table of my church was because I was the one trying to hold
My integrity and not gossip and slander my fellow elders
But they weren't doing the same courtesy to me
And so now even to this day months and months later
I still sometimes get messages and texts from people who are who are asking me questions
But really the questions are accusations within with a question mark at the end of it
And I've had a cutoff communication with people who are like man you we were former friends
But we we can't be in relationship anymore
Because you are literally just operating off the gossip and the false narrative that you were led to believe about me that isn't true
And it's because I held my tongue to the standard of the Bible and they didn't and now I'm the one paying the price for it
That sounds like classic narcissism
I'm gonna get to that more here
Yeah, some of the things that you're describing sounds like stuff that I dealt with when I was a youth pastor
When I stepped on some people's toes during the 2016 election and basically said one of your candidates is more Christian than the other
And I was said
That I needed to pipe down and then a year and a half later because I had said that I had offended the wrong people and got forced out
But I've also seen it with
Some other people in my extended family and but I digress on that
Yeah, I mean we live in a culture where people are conditioned to think
That the worst thing you can ever do is if as offend us a feminine sensibility
And so if you say something that's quote unquote controversial then you're the bad guy
It doesn't matter whether or not you say it's true
I mean I sat in board meetings where I literally because I would write out word for word a manuscript of my sermon
And I would print them out and pass out copies and be like guys
Can you show me here where I incorrectly handled the word of the lord
Can you in can you show me who I lied and it was like no, but you know, it's all tone struggle session
It's all the long house and this is what I mean by the people in the plateaus cave
These were guys who didn't even realize how compromised they were
They didn't realize how conditioned and how given over they were to the long house
And the struggle session of the humiliation rituals of like you you you need to get out there and perform a humiliation ritual
In the in the podium this weekend because you've offended the sensibilities of a 38 year old liberal woman
That's really what a boil down to
Would you describe for our listeners what you mean by the long house
Yeah, the long house is a term that if if you're probably on if you're not on x you're probably not familiar with it
The long house comes from sort of a couple of different places originally
But it's this idea of in in matriarchal cultures
Or if you know if you're familiar with the idea of a den mother
That that you have this matriarch
Who she is the one who runs roughshod over that that community or sub community
And she's the one who's in charge and her feminine sensibilities is the one that rules the quote-unquote long house
This comes from like Native American culture
And as our buddies Steve Dase often says
Boy if you think the patriarchy is bad. Wait till you see the matriarchy
And so everything is filtered through the lens the over 10 window of what's acceptable
The over 10 window of what is deemed right and wrong of what is
allowed and what is strong verboten
Is is all about the the the whole monitor Karen and her sensibilities
And then if you if you offend her then you've offended the long house
And now you must be brought before the matriarchal tribunal of the long house
And struggle session and put forth your humiliation rituals in order to cleanse yourself of violating the 11th
Commandment which is thou shalt not offend the most sensitive woman in your congregation
In other words you you violated thou shalt be nice
Yeah, and I think Johnny I think we talked about this in last episode we did
The word nice isn't actually in scripture
No, it's goodness but we must take niceness as righteousness
It's kindness, right?
You know what's ironic about this brother is that you could go
Well, actually now you can't I was gonna say you could go into my former church's YouTube channel and see all my
All my old sermons because I preached on all of this
I literally preached a series through Jude
Called believing the true story intent wink wink guys
I preached sermons against gossip. I preached sermons against all of this stuff
And I would watch as people in the seats with like not a long and like fist bump
And then literally five minutes later walk out into our lobby and do the very thing that they were just nodding
so
I think there's this disconnect that we have
where we think Christianity is just
If I just believe in not a long with certain propositions, I'm good
But then I can go and do the thing functionally and say I'm justified because you know, it's all about not offending
The other and so that's the 11th commandment and righteousness must be nice rather than kind
And I actually preached a sermon on the difference between niceness and kindness in my church
And I talked about how church people are great at being nice
We put on the plastic Sunday morning smiles, we sell the right things and the right gentle voice tones,
we contort our faces and our eyes in the pre-accepted ways, but then as soon as that person walks away
from us we turn around and we're gossiping about them in the lobby. I literally had board members
in the time of my church who would come into my office close the door and gossip about each other.
I literally had board members wives who in the lobby of our church on a Sunday morning would gossip
about the person who they said was their friend who they literally was just talking to.
That's what I mean by nice. That's nice. But you know what kindness is?
Kindness is a genuine other focused loving. It means that I am genuinely kind to you,
not because I'm trying to shine you on or get something from you. It's because I'm focused on
on who you are as another amago day and what you need. And I'm going to be kind in the sense that
I'm going to be genuinely welcoming and all that stuff. And then as soon as you leave,
I'm going to be kind in that I'm not going to talk me on your back. And so there's a difference
between niceness and kindness that we have lost in the American church. Nice is phony and perfunctory,
but kind is genuine and authentic. I think that what you're describing when it comes to the long
house and niceness, not being the same as kindness, it relates to your story because niceness is
basically agreeing with you and fist pumping to your face, what you preach.
But then stabbing you in the back 10 minutes later by gossiping about you. Kindness would be
that you know what it is that your pastor is doing for your spiritual health and what it is that
he's enduring and saying, Hey, brother, I know you're going through this. How can I pray for you?
What do I need to do to stand alongside you? These are false allegations. You know, what do you
guys need a meal? Can we come over and pray for you in that instance? And you probably had people
that did that, but that shows the difference between niceness and kindness. And I think I played it
on one of our podcasts when we were talking about the sin of being maliquity, the sin of being a
soft man, according to 1 Corinthians 6.9 in the Greek, it talks about being an effeminate or a soft man.
And when combined with another Greek word, it is vernacular and slang for homosexuality.
But when you allow this type of reckless behavior to occur within the church,
I think you're literally seeing the warning that Jesus talks about when he says, be where the
yeast of the Pharisees, because that leaven will ruin the entire batch. And they want to be praised
in public, but in private and behind people's backs, they are the living equivalent of white
wash tombs full of dead men's bones. And I think that that's what you're talking about and what
you want to get to. Yeah, that's a really good equivalency. You know, the Pharisees were the only,
the Pharisees are a really good example, because what you see is you see them constantly attacking
the person who's trying to be bold in the truth. And our American suburban churches today in
this cultural moment are full of Pharisees who they will rationalize their own sin, though rationalize
the most dysfunctional and unhealthy in any congregation, and then like paper over it with like
fluffy cliches, like, well, we just want to be loving and graceful. Well, how about loving and
graceful to the other 200 people in the room right now who are being constantly, whose worship is
being disrupted by this other person making a scene? How about loving and graceful towards them?
So I think, you know, with these boards, what ends up happening, I'll talk about this more in a
minute as we get to my list here, but what I experience and what a lot of pastors are experiencing
across the country is that these these men who are not acting like men, the only person that they
will be strong with and that they will confront to the to bullying proportions is their pastor.
And everybody else gets all the excuses, all the rationalizations, and all the free rides, and
that's we have to confront that and stop that. So with this list, what do we need to find as
solutions for groups of overseers to not critique and criticize their pastor, but to come alongside
them and build them up? What are the solutions that you see are lacking in America's churches today?
When it comes to men who we think are spiritual leaders, but in fact they're just a habby and cocks
in suits who claim Christ a savior. Yeah, that's yeah. Well, I'll set it up this way. This is my
preface for this list that I'm about to go through. I'm about to go through eight specific things.
Now, in my mind and my thinking, all of these solutions are very simple and straightforward,
but notice that I said simple and not easy, and I'll talk about why I think they're simple but not
easy here at the end. But to kind of set it up this way, pastors and elders or deacons, if you have
any position of authority in your church, I'm talking to you. And the thing that I want you to know
for this entire list, and again, I'll circle back at the end, is I need you to think through this
list generationally. What I'm about to specify and what I'm about to propose, this isn't like a
quick fix. Do these three things, Joel Olstein, and you'll love your best church left now. We have
to get out of this microwave thinking. So pastor, if you're listening to this going, oh, Chris is
going to give me the magic wand away to fix everything this weekend. I'm sorry to just point you,
but you're listening to the wrong guy. And we got to get that microwave thinking out of our head.
What I'm talking about right now is a generational project because we did not get here overnight.
And therefore, if we truly want to fix it and get back to healthy churches, then we have to think
generationally. And how do we build cathedrals and not strip malls? So nice analogy.
The first one that I'll say is this is this is the headwaters, bro.
And again, like in our secret sensitive mega church unity age, this has been chased
from the church. And it's a shame. But theology matters. Number one with a bullet.
Whatever your practice, I promise you this pastor, Lord member, whoever you are, whatever the
issues or challenges or tensions in your church right now, I promise you this, they are downstream
from either crappy or under taught theology. Let me ask you guys this. One was the last time that you
taught your church, your statement of faith. One was the last time you taught your church on,
hey, this is what we believe, whether you're 1689, Westman, whatever it is, I don't care.
One was the last time you taught your church this. One was the last time you taught certain
distinctives. This is who we are. And this is who we're not. And how did you teach them and give
them discipleship lenses to be able to understand both of those and then apply them to their lives?
And so I'll give you an example on this, Johnny, my good buddy, Tom, is a pastor of gospel church
Durango. It's the southern Baptist church down in the very pagan four corners of here in Colorado.
And he got into a little spat today with some big, heavy Baptist leaders, including Bart Barber
and some other squishes about ecclesiology. And Tommy was really confronting this idea of how we
bastardized congregationalism. And what he's confronting is egalitarianism, that this idea that
that everything in the church needs to be a referendum. And every Tom, Dick and Harry needs to say
on every time we paint a wall or move a chair. And there's a lot wrapped up in that. But if you
want to go to my ex, if you want to follow Tom, he's done some really good work on that.
But it's this idea where like if you've got people coming to you and they're griping because
they feel like they weren't heard on you painted a wall or you moved a light or something.
I'm guarantee you that it's because it's downstream of the fact that they have bad theology
somewhere or they haven't been taught good, proper, biblical ecclesiology and what that means.
So number one, theology matters, man. You know, if we don't teach our people what the truth is,
they are going to fall for lies. And guess what? They're going to live those lies out. And that
could be a big reason why you're having the headaches that you're having in your church.
The second one, this flows from the first. We got to get back pastors to preaching the whole
council of God. And here's what I mean by that. Yes, verse by verse. I love the late great John
MacArthur. He was a spiritual father to me. But not only do we not need to stop teaching these like
shallow, topical, some earth, the movies, church sermons. But we need to stop editing God. You might be an expositional church. You might preach verse by verse. But what
books are you choosing and why? Right? We've all heard the verse by verse sermon series through the
gospel of John, which is great or Exodus or whatever. But when was the last time that you preached
on Ephesians and didn't skip over Ephesians 5? When was the last time you preached through
Habakkuk or the post-exilic prophets, which teach about a strong masculine warrior conqueror Jesus
that combats and mitigates this namby, pamby, hippy, surfer Jesus that a lot of people have in
their brains. And so we need to stop editing God. And that includes what books we select, what
passages we select, what we emphasize. We need to stop just selecting things that are easy
that tickle ears because we just want to impress people and make sure that the pagans like us.
to break it to you. They're never going to like you. So stop aiming for that false target.
If you, I think your buddy that you were talking about on Twitter is Tom Thieson, correct?
Yep. Okay. And you can find him on, Tom Thieson, the S is two fives in his name on Twitter.
I just retweeted that on our ex account. He did some, he did some good work today on the day that
we're recording this on good biblical ecclesiology. And we were actually interacting in our text
thread earlier that we knew he was on the right track because of the people who were showing up
to confront him, to combat him. And we're like, Tommy, if Bart Barber is opposing you, you know
you're doing the right thing. You can always judge a man in the arena by the enemies that come
after him and the anger that he invokes in those enemies. That's absolutely correct. Number three,
this will, this will flow out of the first two brother. And here's where we start getting real
specific. We have to also along with the whole council of God, we have to teach what the actual
biblical qualifications are for elders, pastors and deacons. Now preach. I'm sure everybody listening
to this has gone to Bible college or seminary and they, they know exactly where it is. But how many
people in your church can even spell Titus, let alone find it in their Bibles, let alone tell you
what Titus one says or what first Timothy three says, what Paul says in that passage, right?
This gets back to what we were talking about earlier with unqualified boards. I could literally,
if I wanted to go individual by individual of my former board and tell you why they are not
biblically qualified. A few of them were like never put me up on stage and I'm like, well you're
not qualified because this is, you got to be willing to teach brother. A couple of them had a
post date or just wicked kids who are living openly perverse lifestyles and that I think a lot of
it boiled down to the fact that they were mad that I was offending their, their pagan kids to be
honest. We had, we had guys who were just doing all sorts of stuff that just disqualify themselves
from Titus one and first Timothy three. The problem is, we've got churches full of people who
are voting in elders that don't know why or how or what they should be voting for. And so you know,
if you're a Baptist like me, you know, if you're in a congregational polity, you know, where the
congregations got a vote in a new pastor or a new elder, what training have those voters ever
received of what the Bible says and what their criteria is that they're voting for. It's a little
bit like, John, if you've got a 16 year old, would you put him behind the wheel of a car without
first explaining, hey man, that's the steering wheel. That's the brake. That's the gas. Don't mix those
up and those lines that you see painted on the road. Here's how you obey them. So we've got people
in the body, big B, with authority to vote in the spiritual leaders of that church and have
absolutely never heard of sermon or even a five minute talk on the biblical qualifications of an
elder. I think this right here is why so many churches are the way they are. I remember a few
years ago, we were about to vote in a couple of new elders. This was actually during the 2024
election. And I, I, you know, I had a prior bylaws. I had announced that we had elder candidates.
And so I just like cut my short, my main sermon short that week and I actually did like a little
mini six or seven down it six or seven minute down and dirty on first on Titus one and first
Timothy three. Dude, I had like over a dozen people from my church come up to me that Sunday after
service and go, oh my gosh, thank you for doing that. Nobody's ever told me what that stuff means
and what I need to be looking for. Like John, how many how many people in churches across America right
now would say the same thing. So, hey, we're giving you part of the authority to determine the
spiritual direction and leadership of this church. You've never been taught and discipled on what
that actually means and what that looks for. And so instead, what we have is we've got all these
suburban churches across our country who just instead make their decisions on pastors and elders
based on very pragmatic worldly thinking. And here's how I think it often sounds. Feel free to
jump at any moment. Here's how I think it sounds. Well, that guy's kind of tall and he doesn't look
like a dirt ball and he usually wears pretty nice clothes and oh, I heard he makes good money and
oh, I think he's got like this nice successful corporate job. Let's put him on the board.
Does Titus one or first Timothy three John say any of that stuff that I just mentioned?
No. No, it's all about the health of the prayer live praying for the church, the ability to
teach and help others understand the word. And the biggest thing that Titus one and first Timothy
three focuses on is is that person demonstrably leading a godly family? Because if they're not
demonstrably leading a godly family, they cannot be given the authority over the church. If you're
faithful with a little, you'll be given authority over a lot. Well, and so then what we have now are
boards full of dudes who don't meet the biblical qualifications, who are picked for all the wrong
reasons. A lot of them come out of the corporate world. And I mean, listen brother, you've been around.
You understand the corporate world. So now these guys are coming out of 20 or 30 year careers
in white collar HR, Nambi Pambi, white washed, risk averse corporate America. And they're bringing
that experience onto church boards. And so now what they're now, how are they ruling?
Risk averse, whitewash, thou shalt not offend patheles resistance. And then we wonder why things are
the way they are. Because they've been trained by their effeminate HR departments that they're
insurance company for the last 20 years that thou shalt not offend. So that's why our churches are
the way they are. What we need to do is we need to get back to teaching the whole council of god,
including instructing our churches on what the biblical qualifications of elders are. It has nothing
to do with the clothes they wear, how much money they make. Man, give me 10, deeply prayerful,
deeply truly pious guys who are plumbers. Give me those guys on a board over some like corporate
exec or CEO any day of the week. Man, and I will show you a healthy church.
Keep going, Chris, you're cooking. I'd say the fourth thing, brother. And this kind of
dev tails off number three with the qualifications of elders is that we also, and I talked a little
bit of today's about this, we have to rethink the typical pipeline that we have for most of the
guys who are in charge of most of churches in American. Here's what I mean by this. The typical
pipeline for your pastor or youth pastor or associate pastor is this. Probably grew up in youth
group back in like the 90s or 2000s. You know, in youth groups that are like secret sensitive. Let's
just do pizza parties and light shows and play DC. I love DC talk, but if that's all there is,
then like man, you're feeding people wafers and not me. But they grew up in this like secret
sensitive youth group party, pizza party with maybe a five minute divo. And then maybe they
went off to Bible college or YWAM. Or if we're lucky, maybe they did a couple of semesters of
seminary. And then they went straight from that back into the church. And maybe they became
the underpaid or unpaid youth pastor who then threw all the same pizza parties that they grew up in.
There's not a lot of meat there. It's a lot of milk. And then maybe they got promoted,
you know, when they hit 30, maybe they got promoted to being the associate pastor. And then
eventually they became like the lead pastor. At any point in what I just described,
did they ever inhabit in any substance of ways? What I would call the real world?
No. No. They've been in the church youth group bubble their entire lives.
They've never gone out and worked with their hands, been dirty. They've never really spent substantive
time learning how to get along with unbelievers. Like Paul was a tent maker, Jesus was a carpenter,
and Peter, James, and John were all fishermen. Exactly, man. Listen, I said this, I say this all
the time, I would have made a crappy pastor in my 20s and 30s. And I don't know, maybe I did my 40s.
But I spent years in law enforcement. I spent years in the military. Man, when my boys were babies,
I was shoveling manure, literal poop, and the forehand shift at Home Depot 20 years ago.
So I spent a lot of my life out in what I call the real world. And there's a lot of other
dudes and churches with similar experiences. And those experiences harden you. The guys that have
lived in the church bubble their entire lives, those are usually the really soft people pleasers.
Because those are the waters that they've been swimming in their entire lives. It's what they've
been conditioned towards. Just be, you know, as we talk about be nice, be people pleasers, don't
offend, don't ever go too deep. And you've done your job, right? But you get like a construction
worker or an ex-cop. Or dude, I don't know, fill in the blank on like a real world thing where like
you're the type of dude that Louis Lamore describes is like a man with a bark on a real guy who's
lived in the real world. Like I've been shot at. And that's going to be a different caliber of
person because of the experiences the Lord has walked them through. I think our churches are soft
because our leaders are soft. And I think our leaders are soft because they've gone through this
Charmin protected bubble church world pipeline their entire lives. And I think we as the church
need to make concerted efforts as
pastors and elders and leaders today to start looking at dudes and their teens and their
twenties and even in their thirties and going, Hey, you're a dude who's out in the real
world earning his bark.
Let me start discipling you so that you can bring some of that barkness, if I can coin
that term, to the character and personality of our church.
Because if we exegy the times in which we live, we need hard, strong men right now, bro.
And most of the people in our churches are soft because they didn't come from a hard
pipeline.
And we need harder men right now.
I need a scrote check on aisle four, scrote check on aisle four, that's what you're talking
about.
We need men that have, that have a set for Jesus.
That's, that's Job saying, Hey, you know, gird your coins like a man.
In other words, sack up for I will question you and you will give me an answer.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth or I set the stars and the heavens?
Obviously, you were there.
Well, that's a guy getting railroaded and questioned by the king and creator of the
universe.
You don't think that that was a rough time?
Guys that get shot at or guys that when I was in Joplin, I got taken into a job where
I was literally going to be fired three times as I'm doing my work because of false allegations.
And that caused me to rely on the Lord even more because one was a false sexual harassment
allegation, one was a false time theft.
And another one was falsely accusing me of lying on government documents.
Each and every time the Lord vindicated me because I knew I was in the right and I knew
that I hadn't done these things, but people were coming after me because I stood boldly
without wavering upon the hope that we confess.
And men who are in the real world are not going to be led.
They're not going to follow soft weak men in the pulpit.
They're not going to be discipled by soft weak men that are deacons and elders.
You know who they're going to listen to?
My grandpa was a farmer for 60 years in the state of Iowa, right County Iowa.
And he was saved for 50 of those years, came to know the Lord when he was 24 years old.
That man was a man that he would disciple younger pastors who were younger than him when
he was older as a father figure when they had gotten fresh out of Bible college.
And we're doing their first pastorate at his church, why?
Because he had failed to do it with his sons.
And he saw that he needed to take that step with younger men to help them know, "Hey,
I'm here to support you, but you're the head, but you need to know I'm here to work with
you, not against you." And I'm also here to help guide you because there's other people
that are going to try and take advantage of you.
And this is your first job in ministry.
And you need to know that even if we're in the back fields of North Central Iowa, they're
still fallen people and they're still landmines to be aware of.
And we're not doing that with an entire generation of young men who over the last 20 years,
55% of them after five years will leave the pastorate.
Why?
Because it's too hard.
Too hard for what?
What?
You just thought that you were going to sit around and have some, "Jesus, sermon, Ted
Talk," for like 15 minutes and sit around talking about the apostles on Twitter for maybe
another 15 minutes.
And then you'll grab coffee and have discipleship or some sort of Bible study at a Starbucks
for an hour, that ain't going to cut it now in this cultural moment, Chris.
And men in elder boards and in pulpits and pews who are in real life jobs, who listen
to podcasts like this, they are attracted to a grittiness that Jesus embodied by being
a stone mason or a carpenter because most theologians believe he was one of the two.
And he gathered real men who were tax collectors, they were fishermen, they did work with their
hands, and they were young men.
He was 33, they were teenagers.
And then guess what?
You, I discipled you, now you go disciple the nations.
And they changed the world upside down by being passionate about the gospel and gathering
men for the next generation to then fight against the scourges of child sacrifice, of pagan
idol worship, of killing innocent life and worshipping foreign gods.
Lewis put it best, brother, when he said, you know, we make men without chests and then
we wonder why we have traders in our midst.
You know, we castrate the gilding and then bid him be faithful.
And so the church at Corinth, when Paul says, hey, be strong and act like men, you got
to remember who and when he's talking, that men at that time and that part of the world
were men with the bark on, men who worked with their hands, all the things that you're
talking about, tough, rough men.
But not only are we, not only do we have this weird churchy entity pipeline for the
last few decades, where men are just conditioned to be soft because they come through a soft
pipeline, but if we do get not soft men, if we get men with some freight edges, if we
get men with heavens to Betsy, they're a little bit crude.
The second they walk into that church, what are the looks that they're getting in the
lobby stairs, how are people talking about them behind their back?
Are they being welcomed?
No.
Are they being, are they being said, hey, you've got some strength from the real world.
Let me bring you in and disciple that or do we only give them soft men who give them soft
sermons who scold them for being malfunctioning women and chase them out of the body?
Is there any wonder why our churches are 60 to 65% female because when we actually get
hard men from the real world into our churches, we either try to castrate them or we run them
out and we give them no reason to stay.
So this is for me, this is a big, big one with a bullet number four that we need to rethink
our leadership pipeline and who we're welcoming in and who we're creating opportunities for.
And I think that that would relate to finish up.
It would relate to what you talked about when it came to suburban mega churchy entity.
And we have focused on the middle class or upper middle class suburbs of America with
seeker-friendlyism and we have not realized that we have shown partiality in how we've
evangelized the gospel and we did not go to the broken places in the broken spaces where
the working class was hungry for hope.
Yeah, no, but we had to, I mean, this is probably a whole separate podcast, but the hermeneutic
for most suburban church outreaches is we have to go to the places where the people are
brown or the people don't look like us or the people are whatever.
And I'm like, well, white-colored white people need the gospel to, man.
And on that note, like rich people up on the hill need the gospel to.
And it's like, well, that's not cool or trendy and that doesn't satisfy CNN so we can't
do it, which is dumb and a whole another reason.
But I think a lot of this ties into why David Murrow 15 years ago wrote a book called
Why Guys Hate Going to Church because they're soft and effeminate and it's because we got
soft, effeminate men who came down a soft pipeline that if we get actual real man walking
into the building, we run them out passively and we wonder why our churches are the way
they are.
Correct.
Do you want to be the Matt Chandler of today or the Matt Chandler 15 years ago?
I would rather not be Matt Chandler at all.
Well, at least he was actually not preaching about white guilt and white fragility, but
I digress on that.
Keep going.
So that blows into point number five, right? We need harder men who've come through harder pipelines
because we're at war right now.
We need to understand the times in which we live.
And so we need strong men to fight these battles.
And I think the most important battle, you know, judgment begins with a household of
the Lord.
And that leads me to point number five.
Point number five is we have to cultivate in our churches.
We have to cultivate a culture of confrontation.
Paul warned us of this in Colossians 2, Jude warns us of us in verses 3 and 4, where Jude
literally says, man, I was going to write to you about one thing, but like I had to call
an audible and talk about like, there are wolves at your door, baby, and we need to confront
them.
I used to preach about this all the time and people would be like, that's not mean.
Or that's not nice.
We need to confront and we need to confront with truth and love because it's hateful to
allow lies to go on a post.
If I'm your kid's teacher and they write on their math quiz, the 2 plus 2 equals yellow.
If I don't confront and correct them, I'm on loving and I'm not doing my job.
Our churches are filled with people who are passive and won't confront anybody except
maybe the pastor who's bold enough to offend their sin on Sunday.
And that's got to stop.
And so we need hard men and then we need those hard strong men to call.
cultivate cultures of confrontation. Listen, pastors, elders, you are meant to be
biblically the immune system of your church. Correct.
Means you have to confront viral bacterial infections. And sometimes some of
those are the people. I mean, I've said this before, man, I can't remember if I
said this on your pod. But some of the worst people I've ever, I mean, some of the
like the meanest, cruelest, most two-faced people I've ever met, weren't when I
was a cop and I was working behind a 7/11 at 2 a.m. Fighting a drug dealer. It was
people in my own church lobby. We have to confront gossip. We have to confront
slander. We have to confront this mean spiritiness and lack of charity in which
we refuse to give the benefit of the doubt to our brothers and sisters. We
have to confront. We have to confront people who are narcissistically trauma
bragging and making Sunday morning worship all about them. We have to confront
so many things in the suburban church today. And we can't do that because one
everything's feminine coded. But two because we got a bunch of soft dudes who are
cowards. And so we have lies like feminism, communism, egalitarian politics,
pragmatism, consumerism, absolutely invading like cancers in our churches
today. And nobody's confronting them. Because we're worried about the three holy
bees bodies, bucks and buildings. If I confront, they might leave. Okay, well so
what? Either we believe that God is sovereign or we don't because I'm telling you
right now gentlemen, the target is faithfulness. Correct. Outcomes of whether or
not how they may or may not react. That's between them and the Lord. And you need
to cultivate a culture of confrontation so that you can be that immune system
to your body and make your big B body healthy. And yes, sometimes that means
preaching certain people out of your church. And they might leave. And you know
what? You shouldn't go chasing them down the block struggle session in yourself
to appease them. Jesus. Jesus didn't chase the crowds that after he preached the
be honest. Okay, Matthew, he goes to Peter and says, you want to leave too?
Doesn't chase after the rich young ruler. He answers his question and gets to
the heart of the matter. But the guy turned away and was very sad because he was
very wealthy. And to support your point, Chris, not to cut you off, but
confrontation. We have said this on this podcast. That relates back to mine and
Dr. Everett Piper's podcast about Sophie Cunningham and the doctrine of
non-confrontation. Taking on the men cannot play in girl sports. She is being
used as an instrument of God as a Christian woman in the WNBA to show the
scrollness in our pulpits to not stand for truth. The basic embodiment of a man
is a man and a woman is a woman and men do not invade women spaces and women do
not invade men's spaces. And male and female he created them. But also it relates
back to our friend Steve Dase's point where he said last week on a show, if you
want to know what men in the church need to know about this cultural moment, you
need to get your men's group to do a study through the book of Nehemiah. Why?
Because Nehemiah 13 confrontation is not a negative thing. 13 verse 11, so I
confronted the officials. Why is the house of God forsaken?
Chapter 13 verse 17, then I confronted the nobles of Judah and said, "What evil
thing are you doing profaning the Sabbath?" And then 13 25 and I confronted them
and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair and made an oath
to God in the name saying, "You shall not give your daughters to their sons or
take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves." And then he ends the book
by saying, "Remember me God, for what I have done for you. Sometimes you need to
confront and you need to do it in a stern, firm yet loving way, but sometimes the
most loving way showing the fruits of the Spirit is overturning the table of
the money changers and saying, "WWJD! You're right on brother and I'll just say
this to the guys listening. I preached that sermon on Nehemiah. I preached the
entire book of Nehemiah literally a couple of months before everything fell
apart at my church. And so unfortunately you can preach it for him, but you can't
understand it and live it for him. Correct! That is correct! But you've got to be
faithful and do it nonetheless. And you know Sophie Cunningham or you know Megan
Basham on X. You know those are mighty and faithful Debra's today, but if you
remember from your scripture in what book did Debra operate? Judges. And Debra had
to do what she did because you know the feckless men refused to. Because Barak
didn't want to go to war without her. Exactly. And so when you can tell the
condition of a culture when it's the women who are fighting the battles. And God
God bless Megan. She's amazing. God bless Sophie Cunningham, the Alli best
stuckies of the world, whatever. But men, they're standing in the gap that
you're supposed to occupy. And so they exist because men are refusing to
cultivate a culture of confrontation. And we need to confront these lies of
feminism, consumerism and egalitarianism. And before I move on to point number
six, I'll just end this one on this. If you're sitting there going, well that's a
really good point. But I'm just gonna wait for somebody else to do it. You're
already wrong. You need to be the one to confront. Stop waiting for the guy
whose paycheck comes from the church building. You're a man. You've been given
the dominion, dominion mandate too. If you're not gonna lead in confront, then
get the heck out of the way, get off your board, resign your associate church
pastor ship tomorrow because you are not the man for the times that we need.
Right. Stop waiting for someone else to do it. Gandalf ain't coming over that
hill on the light of the fifth day. You are the one. God has put you in this
moment in this time. Regrow your spine and do your job. It's just like I say on
this podcast, Chris, to relate to that as you go to point number six, men who
fail to take a stand and do something because they're afraid of failure. They've
already failed themselves. Well, not taking a stand is a stand. You're taking a
stand for your own comfort. You're taking a stand for your cowardice. You're
taking a stand for the path of least resistance and all of those things are
wrong. If you doubt me, go back and read Genesis 3 and focus on verse six. Adam
was standing right there the entire time. You know what Adam was standing around
taking a stand for when he kept his mouth shut as the enemy of our souls was
okay, doaking his one flesh. He was taking a stand for his own comfort and convenience.
And how many of our men, even in positions of authority and churches today,
are taking the same stand. And that's why things are the way they are, Charlie Brown.
We're following Adam rather than Jesus. Amen. Point six, point six, going back to
boards. We have to remember that again, on the biblical training of these
boards of who's supposed to be on the board and what the board is supposed to do.
Again, this comes into the white culture, the white, sorry, the white
color culture that these unqualified members bring onto the board. The board is
not supposed to exist. It's like, hey, we just got a business meeting. We got a
rubber stamp the budget and maybe yell at somebody who did something that's
one of our wives isn't like. The purpose of a board is to be the spiritual
leaders and praying for our people. And if your church doesn't know who's on
your board, that's a big giant dashboard flashing light that your board is
constructed wrong and they're not doing what they're supposed to do. You should
be spending the majority of your time as a board, mutually praying for each
other, mutually encouraging each other, doing all those things and then
praying for your body. You should take the roster of your church and split it up
equally amongst your board members and go, hey, every week you are going to reach
out to at least a few people who you are assigned to and check in on them, whether
that's an at home visit for somebody who's sick, a phone call that somebody needs
who's feeling lonely, whatever the case is, you all are under shepherds. What you'll
see in the New Testament over and over again is that the word that is used for
pastor and elder is the same. And so they have the responsibility to spiritual
lead as well. And so your board needs to be set up to do the right things in the
right way. Point number seven, we talked about this a second ago, but in
Corinthians, Paul says, be strong and act like men. Guys, this means leading. It's
all the stuff that we've been talking about. If you're sitting around, if you're
passive, if you're making all the excuses white, this moment in this time, you're
the one that gets to be passive. Well, it's you need to be wait, you know, whatever
the case may be, you're not leading, you're abdicating. I got to imagine that
standing there in the garden as the snake was just working over Eve, Adam
probably had all the excuses and rationalizations in his head why he needed
to wait. And it's probably the same ones that we tell ourselves today. Those
are lies from the pit of hell that are born out of your sin of cowardice and
yes, cowardice is a sin. And you need to forsake that repent of it and you need
to get to work. You need to be dangerous towards evil men. If you're not acting
like a man, you're not dangerous towards evil. You should be dangerous. Body, soul,
mind, strength, your body should be healthy. Your mind should be healthy. Your
marriage should be healthy. That makes a man who is dangerous towards evil. And so
I'll just end this part on acting like men. I see this all the time, man. Guys
are so terrified of the names they might be called. Man, I stopped worrying about
what my enemies call me a long time ago and know that doesn't make me a
calissociopath. It makes me a grown man. It makes me a grown man with a
perspective of somebody who's actually been shot at. And so snarky comments and
big scary names.
Don't confront me because if I'm standing on truth and speaking on truth and so what because at the end of the day
I'm called to act like a man who loves and worship and serves the line of Judah
So I'm not gonna act like a cowardly little lamb. We need to stop being so insecure neurotic
We need to stop functioning like eighth-grade girls who are terrified of what somebody else may think of them
We need to be strong and act like men
To round it out point number eight
This was a late addition that the Lord gave me this word right before we went on
so breaking news
So circle back to how I frame this when I said hey, we need to think that this is a generational project
Men we need to do these previous seven things and therefore build
Generationally and no, I'm not getting into dispensationalism versus post-millar any of that junk. Here's what I'm talking about
We need to start cultivating redwoods again and not dandelions
You know, there's this there's a beautiful cathedral in Spain. I think it's in Cologne
No, France the the Cathedral of Cologne where it took 600 years to build that sucker
Which means that there were multiple generations of men who chiseled on those rocks
Who worked faithfully for years knowing that they would never see the beautiful end product of that creation
How many of us are just trying to microwave
Instant meal Amazon prime overnight everything and so instead of cultivating mighty redwoods that bless the generations
We build these cheap strip malls. We and we we plant and cultivate dandelions that are here today gone tomorrow
That aren't resilient that burn away at the first frost and their weeds to begin with
Right, but if you think about building generationally
When was the last time you ever went to a national park of dandelions?
But in my home state of California, there's a national park of redwoods and there's a reason for that difference a redwood is strong
It's mighty. It's built by ever it they usually grow by everlasting waters and when a redwood dies and falls over
It usually becomes a nurse log for other redwoods who will grow out of that dead redwood and become mighty redwoods in their own right
I think right now in the church we're constantly looking for the fast and instant famous
We're looking for the Instagrammable solution. I want to wave a magic wand
I want it my way right away at Burger King now, and we need to get that thinking out of our brains because it's not biblical
What made what made chrysanthemum great for our first
1,900 years was that we thought and we built and we worked
Generationally and it wasn't about my instant gratification
You know, I'm thinking in terms of like what's gonna bless my grandkids and I'm 44 and they don't even exist yet
We need to get back to this and so I think a real practical way that this could look like
Is let me ask you pastors this in your churches?
What are the opportunities and pathways for men in their 20s and 30s to take dominion lead and exert themselves as
Burgeoning leaders in your church
Do those pathways even exist?
Are you actively and intentionally creating those opportunities because I'll tell you what I've seen for this last generation man
We got a bunch of boomers who were still up there in their 70s and 80s and refuse to get off the stage
And they haven't poured into the next generation and so we've got boomer pastors who are dying off and their
Churches are folding because nobody ever poured into the guys in their 30s 40s and their 20s
We have to generational
Think about this we've got to think about the fact that right now
I've been put in this moment as like a running a race of a baton and I have the baton right now
But guess what eventually I have to hand that off and if I'm not thinking and planning faithfully to intentionally hand that off
Eventually, then I'm failing this project
Because if you look back at the patristics right just a martyr and John Christusum
We're mentored and discipled by John the Apostle and then they went on to mentor guys
You know all the way through Augustin and Aquinas and so forth
Who are you identifying that are in their late teens 20s and 30s now?
And what are the opportunities that you're creating in your church for them to I don't know get up and preach a sermon
Lead a Bible study
Be discipled and and I don't know mentored to eventually be future elders if you're not doing that now
You're not building generationally and if you're not building generationally then brother
I've honestly questioned
If you are leading an actual Ecclesia or if you're just leading a small cake kingdom in your name
And that's a hard thing that we all have to ask ourselves are we just trying to build
The instant gratifying small cake kingdom right now for us
Or are we actually building generationally and it's not about us?
And we're working towards the big cake kingdom
We have to get back to doing that if we want our churches to be healthy again
And I would agree as we wrap up. That is what built Christendom for the last
1800 years because the rise of
denominational and
Theological
Bible colleges, seminaries, universities that turned basically Christianity into
Big Eva and a
Sutto Christian big business. You're finding out a giant gimmick man. Just a giant
It's just a mega church entity now is just a giant
Marketing gimmick Sunday after Sunday and that's not building generation. No, it's not just trying
That's just that's just this pragmatic Madison Avenue
How do I track the El the neighbors? Oh, let's do a football theme Sunday. Listen, that might be fine every once in a while
But if you're just jumping from gimmick to gimmick, you're not building generationally. No, you know
How did how did Christianity take over the world without a pizza party without a theme weekend?
We
Eugene Peterson's definition of obedience a long discipline in the same direction
That's what it is and it has to be generational obedience and
What I was going to say was Chris church is need to be in the business of raising up leaders not your seminaries
They need to be in the business of discipling young men
This is someone who has the gift of teaching and preaching we need to pour into him because he could be the person who in
5 to 10 or 15 years we could send him out as an ordainment
He then goes and does his church comes back and he pours into the life of his hometown
Because he has a heart for it. We haven't done that for 50 to 70 years in this country and we're seeing the ramifications of it
But when it comes to things like Lindsey Clancy for example
Well, you said something a second ago brother that's really interesting. Hey, this this guy might have the gift of teaching and preaching
Pastors elders. Let me ask you this
How and where would you even discern that?
Where where in the life of your church from one week to another are there even opportunities for that dude to be in a position where you can
Evaluate that in him
Does that exist? Are you spending all of your time in meetings talking about more programming that is just basically a version of a pizza party
Because you just are obsessed with marketing gimmicks to get people in the door
Well, I'm telling you right now and I know you've seen this John and a lot of other guys who were listening to this probably have all the data
Coming out of Barna and Lifeway and some of these others since COVID especially
people in their 20s and 30s are sick of that crap
There's a massive pendulum swing going on especially amongst young men and praise be to God church
You're behind the curve for the first time in human history
You have to catch up to young men who are sick and tired of the gimmicky crap and want you to get back to the business of actually being the church and
Building generationally and that means you're gonna have to prune some stuff
You might have less programming. Well your church isn't supposed to be a religious goods and services co-op anyway
And so one way to come back consumerism is cut some programming and then refocus those resources to like what you were talking about
John which is let's go back to maybe some apprenticeship models
Let's create opportunities to identify those guys and that's actually a apprentice and disciple them
That would be a much better generational use of our time effort and resources than just oh
The big church down the street did like a football theme kickoff weekend. Let's do one two like people are so sick of that crap
Man, we have to stop we have to stop building cheap strip malls
And we need to get back to the business of building glorious cathedrals to the glory of the Lord
Correct two examples would be find people that have great testimonies in your church and have them come up before a sermon and
Give a five to ten-minute testimony where they preach about the exclusivity of the gospel and what it did for them in their life
And if they have the gift of preaching and teaching you're gonna see it by stories from the pews another thing
Do that in your youth group find people that are on fire for the Lord and let them give sermons rather than you giving small dead
Docs and challenge them to challenge their peers
That's what Charlie Kirk was doing with TPUSA. That's what Seth is doing with white rose resistance
And that's what any person who has been effective in the Christian faith for two thousand years since Jesus walked the earth
They followed his model. They found young men. They trained them. They set their souls on fire
They went to glory and they passed the baton to the next generation Chris
And that is what we need from our boards from our elders from our deacons from our overseers and from our
Pastors and I thank you for bringing that up on this podcast. It's been a pleasure brother
Well, thank you brother and just to finish the thought at the beginning
I said all of these are straightforward and simple, but they're not easy. You know, they're not easy
Because us because at some point in the last hour plus
I said something that that niggled you a certain way that made you furrow your brow because it's
uncomfortable because it's going to require change because it isn't easy overnight. Men for sake
that impulse and do the right thing get back to this and we win. Absolutely. Chris, where can people
find you on the web and also on your socials and tell us what you're doing with the last stand?
Yeah. So I am the director of the ambassador and speaker's guild program of the White Rose
Resistance. We are doing this very thing that we're talking about. We are trying to partner with
and raise up both internally and externally the next generation of Charlie Kirk's and Seth
Groober's trying to come alongside guys in their 20s and 30s who have the talent and the passion
to teach them and train them to be better speakers out there in the cause of life because life
is our revolution and our revolution is the gospel applied to the preborn. So proud to be part of
that fight. You can email me at Chris @TheWhiteRose.life Chris @TheWhiteRose.life and you can find me on
X with all of my random thoughts that are mine and mine alone at C Global 04 on X and so that's C
GOBs and BoyLE 04 on X. Well, brother, it has been great to have you back on the program. I look
forward to doing it again and we will have you back on because what you talked about as a little teaser.
We'll do that the next time. You can find me on the web at america held hostage.transistor.ifm.
Find me on Twitter @jhinden_, along with C Global 04. It's X but it'll always be Twitter to us.
Thank you, Elon Musk. As millennials, the geriatric millennials. Find us also on the web. You can
find the WhiteRose resistance at the WhiteRose.life and you can also find me on Twitter as well
and on Instagram at AHH podcast_. For Chris @Google, I'm John Hinton. Remember America?
Where there is a remnant. If God's remnant cries out for repentance, there's always a revival.
And with repentance and revival, there's always a resurgence. Until next time, concessions 2-8.
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