How Larry Ellison’s Trump Bromance Is Helping WarnerMount

This episode of The Town is presented by HBO Max. For your awards consideration, Max presents Hacks, the Emmy award-winning series starring Gene Smart and Hannah Einbinder. In the aftermath of mistaken news reports that Debra passed away, she and Ava returned to Las Vegas determined to secure Debra's legacy as a comedian. Don't miss the series' variety is calling one of TV's best comedies ever. Hacks is streaming on HBO Max. Watch now. It is Friday, June 26th. Throughout the ongoing saga of Paramount buying Warner Brothers, it's been one figure quietly hovering over everything. Larry Ellison, he does no media interviews and is rarely photographed, and he's been one of the richest men in the world for decades now as the founder of Oracle. Ellison used to make headlines for his extravagant Malibu homes or buying a Hawaiian island or bank rolling the Indian Wells tennis tournament, America's Cup sailing competition, but these days at 81 years old, he's in the news mostly because he's helping his son David buy two legacy Hollywood studios and roll them up into what the Ellison's hope will be a technology empowered media mega studio that can credibly take on Netflix, Amazon, Disney, and the others. And to do so, Larry has leaned hard into his relationship with Donald Trump. He's always been a Republican donor, but we learned in the Wall Street Journal this week that just before David's Skydance media went after Paramount, Larry quietly made more than $45 million in donations to Trump's election campaign. He's donated more since, and he's also cultivated a close friendship with the fellow octogenarian billionaire who seems to share a political and social worldview with the elder Ellison. So much so that to understand the Trump Larry relationship is to sort of understand why the president has been such a cheerleader for the Ellison's owning Paramount. And why the Trump Justice Department just gave an okay to the Warner Mountain merger pretty much sight unseen. I've been curious about the Larry Angle, so I asked Emily Glazer to come on the show. She's a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter, the Wall Street Journal, our second journal reporter this week, sort of a coincidence. She co-wrote that story on Larry Ellison, and she covers powerful people as her beat. So today is the Larry Angle on the Warner Mountain merger and the personal relationship behind the biggest deal in Hollywood history. From The Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany, and this is the town. All right, we are here with Emily Glazer, who is an enterprise reporter at the Wall Street Journal and a genuine honest-to-God Pulitzer Prize winner. Welcome. I'll take that welcome any day. Thanks, Matt. You know, the Pulitzer Committee never gets back to us. We submit our box office draft every year. And nothing. I'm still waiting. Lucas is very disappointed. I wish I could tell you I had an amazing in, but I'm not that powerful. Some days. Maybe this episode, some day, we'll use your cloud. Right. It could all change after this. All right. So we have you on today because I want to talk about the Larry Angle in the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. By Larry, I mean Larry Ellison, where is he now on the list of richest people? Is he still top 10? He is still top 10, so for a hot second, he was number one. As you can imagine, with Elon and the SpaceX IPO, he is not number one anymore. But you and I are on the same page because I did pull up the Bloomberg billionaires index before this podcast. And he's number six, according to them, behind Elon, Larry Page, the other Larry Sirgabren, Jeff Bezos, Michael Dow, a whopping 211 billion. Sad for Larry. He needs to pick up the pace. He needs to get him to that top five. We'll share that. He is above Mark Zuckerberg though. That must feel good. I wanted to have you on because Larry has always been painted during all of these discussions around the deal as sort of a periphery figure. At least from the Hollywood perspective, this has been David Ellison's show. Obviously Paramount is very interested in promoting. This is David's show. He's making all the decisions. He's the mastermind behind all this. And then you and your colleagues at the journal dropped this story this week that essentially painted a picture that was a little different than what has been out there. Larry, first of all, has kind of greased the wheels here with a undisclosed $45 million donation to the Trump campaign. Other here to four undisclosed donations after that. He's had several meetings with Trump. And this sort of at least how I read your story, bend the, if not the puppeteer behind this. Certainly a big and powerful voice beyond just putting up the money and guaranteeing this $110 billion. Am I right in that reading? I think you are. I mean, you know, there's always the nuances around it. But here I would say Larry is not just the money man, although he obviously has an insane amount of money and the money has helped. But when it comes to Larry Ellison and president Trump, there's actually a genuine friendship and they genuinely like each other. You think that the guy like Larry have any real friends? I truly do. So let me let me like paint this for you a little bit. Okay. These are friends with benefits and a different kind than what we're usually doing, right? Okay. Sorry, sorry. Friends with business benefits Larry Ellison and Donald Trump from what I hear from what my sources tell me genuinely enjoy spending time together. Trump just turned 80. Larry is 81. I'm not saying their friends just because then they're 80s. I'm just trying to like paint a little picture for you. They have similar ideological beliefs. They actually have things that they get along about. And I think that what I've heard is that Trump doesn't just view Larry as someone that like needs something from him, even though he does. But like Larry's got his own power. He's got his own money. He's got his own influence. He has his own relationship. So I feel like I don't want to say they're equals, but I think that in some cases, like there is actually like genuine connection that they have. Which when I learned that, I was like, oh, wow, that's really interesting. And that was kind of a kernel for me of exploring this more. It's funny. You say that because I'm thinking now to this new book that just came out regime change, which has some pretty entertaining moments in it where Trump is showing off the fact that he's getting text messages from all of these billionaire tech moguls like Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. You don't hear in that book Trump making fun of Larry Ellison. And they do talk a lot. I know for a fact, they talk on the phone quite a bit. They also see each other. Larry Ellison officially changed his, his like residents to Florida, just about 20 minutes south of Mar-a-Lago. He still has his Hawaii residents, but he's got this like huge compound very close to Palm Beach. So they're physically close, but they also do talk on the phone a lot. And to your point about what's the deal with Paramount, you better believe that they were on the phone around a lot of the ins and outs and shenanigans as that went down. And that's some of what we report. Yes. And when you mentioned that they have ideological shared beliefs, what do you mean by that? Is it just Israel because we all know Larry is a big supporter of Israel. And in fact, some of my reporting I've done suggests that that, not the Trump stuff, that is really the ideological driver of a lot of this stuff at CBS News where they've taken the direction of CBS News in a very different way with Barry Weiss. And even the entire kind of goal of the company, they feel very strongly about Larry and David that there needs to be a protector of Israel in the media. So and kudos to your reporting. I've seen a lot of that great reporting. There's definitely an Israel connection. Obviously Trump's relationship with BB right now is much more fraught than it has been, but they do have a longstanding rapport, Larry and Netanyahu have a longstanding rapport. There's that connection. But it's not just that my understanding is that they also both have a shared dislike for some mainstream media to travel back in time quite a bit when Larry was really in like the heyday of his tech years. He got a ton of press and I've been told over the years that he just absolutely despises that and like really issues a lot of that. So it's always very interesting to see David building this media conglomerate when it's something that Larry has, especially with legacy media is like really not a big fan of most of those organizations. So I think that's something that he and Trump bond over. And I think that they also genuinely both have like I said before, they're kind of like from a similar generation. They both have a lot of money. They both have a lot of power. They both need things from each other, but I think they both have like a shared respect for one another. It's it's very odd. I mean, it's always really interesting when you see friendships at this level of power. Because I think people are always used to when you have a lot of money or power like someone wants something. It's got to be like the favor or the ask and their rapport has that, but there's also been all these bumpy years too and money at least has solved that for Larry Ellison. So it's not always been a pretty friendship. Yeah. I've always thought that Larry, who's by all accounts, extremely intelligent, had sort of identified Trump as a useful idiot that he could cozy up to and get a lot of out of unlike previous presidential regimes where he could not. And in fact, Larry has had other candidates that he's supported, not Donald Trump, and has managed to kind of win his way back into the good graces. I just don't like I make it more cynical. I just have a hard time believing that a guy like Larry Ellison actually wants to hang out with Donald Trump. So honestly, I'm having flashbacks a little bit of I remember years ago, I, I was talking to Andrew Russ Orkin and he was like grilling me about this article I wrote about Elon Musk potentially becoming an advisor, a political advisor to Donald Trump should Donald Trump went and he was like, I don't believe it. I don't believe it. And I was like, no, no, this is like a real thing. And I will tell you that I'm having some flashbacks here. Like, I really, I also was, I am a very skeptical person. I am a very paranoid person trust, like, you know, ask anyone who knows me. I'm always just like wondering, like, could that be true? I think they genuine, I think that Donald Trump and Larry Ellison, like genuinely like each other. But that's not, I mean, that's so simple, right? This is obviously just way more complex than that. And let's not forget in the 1990s and 2000s, Larry Ellison was like a huge Clinton guy. Oh, yeah. Clinton. Okay. Like Bill Clinton spoke at this big Oracle event. I was looking up this story from, I think it was like 2001 where there were all these reports that there were rumors that Larry wanted Bill Clinton to join the Oracle board. So like, even though we all think of Larry Ellison as this like Trump guy and Republican, which he has been for a number of years, you know, you mentioned he supported other candidates. He was a huge backer of Tim Scott, um, going into the 2024 presidential race, only switched to Trump. Only gave that 45 million donation toward his reelection once, at least our understanding is once he saw that the writing was on the wall and Trump was going to be the Republican nominee. But going back to 2016, he was a Marco Rubio supporter. So like, he's popped around. I just think it's interesting that he's also supported Democrats like back in the day, as has and as widely known David Ellison. Yeah, David gave to the Harris Biden campaign and he also has given to other Democrats. He was like a fixture on the LA Democratic fundraiser circuit, although pointedly, he is not given to either party in the Trump years. Right. And now he's a fixture, he's a fixture at the UFC. Yes. Now. So we'll get into that. I just remember when I saw Gavin Newsom at a party in DC for the correspondence dinner, I said, I asked him what he thought of Larry Ellison and he like, he just like rolled his eyes like, don't even get me started on that guy. It seemed like there was a long history between the two of them. I got it. I feel like I need to pull up the federal election commission records and see if there's anything there. I'm sure. But any of the good stuff would not be there, right? And Oracle is so heavily invested in California. I'm sure he's annoyed by the taxes and all that. All the stuff that we couldn't even start this conversation without being like, and then there are no way about the billionaires tax like, come on. Of course. All right. So let's take this towards Paramount and now Paramount Warner Brothers because I want to know and just getting into the psychology of Larry. Is this just that his son, his only adult son wants to do this and he is going to do everything in his power to make sure his son fulfills his dream of owning a big media company? Or is Larry the mastermind here and sees a roll up of media assets combined with what he can do with the technology angle at Oracle, combined with what he is building with TikTok now. And he is the one who sees this in the big picture and that this could be a real media powerhouse. It's definitely more of the latter than the former as I presume you know. Let's take each piece of that apart for a moment. As is widely out there, Larry Ellison and David Ellison have not just had some like happy go lucky father son rapport their whole lives. I don't think it's as simple as Larry just trying to do this to like please his son or repair anything with his son. I have not heard that. I do think that Larry is an absolute mastermind. I've heard that he is someone even when I've talked to people that have worked with him at Oracle over the years that is amazing as like a strategic mind and connecting the dots. And even now he's executive chairman and like chief technology officer, he's still calling the shots at Oracle, sorry to the Oracle co CEOs and staffer cats. I'm just saying that's what I have heard. I am sure you know, day to day, it's always different, but he's still extremely powerful and he's still very thoughtful and putting a lot of effort into what he sees as the future of media and tech. And I think that it's very poignant that you mentioned TikTok and that you also mentioned the media elements of this because for many years, you know, Larry's been the Oracle guy. And it's sort of been this like kind of boring big tech company, but like very B2B, you know, it's not as sexy as like a Facebook or a Google or even what like, you know, Elon's building a SpaceX or Tesla, you know, it, it's kind of been able to do its own thing and largely stay out of the news. I think a lot of that is by design. And he is tick toad more and more into these other elements of media and technology where they overlap. And the Trump administration has helped him a lot along the way. And it's not just getting, you know, access and running the US part of TikTok. It's not just Oracle getting in on Stargate and getting access to this massive AI project. I mean, there's government contracts that Oracle has gotten. And it's not just what's happened with CBS, what's happened with Paramount, what's happened with Warner Brothers. Like, there's just so many elements of this. So yes, I think we should give a lot of credit to Larry Ellison is a very long way to answer your question. Yeah, then the other question is, why didn't he bankroll more of this? Certainly has the money. Why force them to go out and get Saudi money, Abu Dhabi money, Katari money? And in the original deal, he wasn't even going to backstop it. Ultimately, he came in and guaranteed a lot of these loans and the overall deal. But I always wondered if you that rich, just what are you doing dealing with this other money? Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall in those conversations, Matt? I'm sure you have been a little bit. I know. I'm asking you things that are unknowable. I think that with anyone who is extremely wealthy, there's only so much liquid cash to go around number one. So there's just like that part of it to consider. So in the Oracle stock is dictating a lot of this and it has come down significantly since the highs a year or two ago. So his personal wealth fluctuates a lot. It's funny. I had some readers, Wall Street Journal readers, or maybe they just found this on the internet after that were like, yeah, we saw that story. But did you see Oracle's stock is down? So like really none of this matters. It was like, okay, that's one way to look at it. So yeah, I just think no matter how wealthy you are, there's always how much of that cash is liquid. I think that's the best answer I could give to that. Otherwise, I wish I had the magic ball and like you better believe I wish I were in on all those conversations. But listen, Larry is spending his money in lots of different ways. And part of why we wrote the story is that there's a lot more money he's spending toward Trump and Trump efforts than was known. And so he's not putting all his money in the paramount basket. That would be really odd if he did, right? It would be. It would be very odd. So I get it. It's, you know, and you don't get to where he is without making smart deals. And he probably wanted to provide just enough financing with Redbird and with the others to make this happen without providing a penny more. I guess there's a reason why he is where he is, you know. This episode is brought to you by Fandool Predicts. You can predict the Summer Soccer Showcase action all the way to the final match with Fandool Predicts. All you have to do is sign up to get your $25 bonus. From the opening game to the final whistle, stay locked in with every pass, every goal, and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. Sign up now for your $25 bonus on Fandool Predicts. Go to Fandool.com/Predicts to sign up. That's Fandool.com/Predicts to get your $25 bonus offered by Fandool Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus, restrictions apply. See terms at Fandool.com/Predicts/Bonus-Offer-Terms. So let's get into some of the things in your story, some of the additional things that were surprising to me about Larry and David. One thing that surprised me was the willingness of David Ellison to contact board members, at least one board member of Paramount. Before he owned the company to try to get this Trump litigation settled. That was unknown to me, and suggested that he had sort of like claimed clean hands on that one. That happened before his time at the company. David has said this was a Sherry Redstone thing. They decided to pay off Trump to get his blessing for the Paramount acquisition by Skydance. Now we learn that he was behind the scenes pushing for that. Paramount's downplaying that, but it seems like pretty active there. We're getting spicy. Yes. So first of all, I just want to note that I wrote this story with two incredible colleagues, Annie Linsky, White House reporter, and Jessica Tungle, who is a senior. media and tech reporter, I have to shout out my colleagues because so much of the reporting here is like a team effort, not to sound corny, but I just wanted to say that. So let's travel back in time as you started to bring us David Ellison, you know, he was his company then with Skydance, they're in the midst of merging with CBS's owner Paramount. He meets with Trump at this UFC event in April 2025. Broker by Ari Emmanuel. Right. Let's not forget that. Don't forget Ari's there. Ari's the where's Waldo in all of these deals. Love it. I love that. And so, oh, I'm sorry, and Elon Musk is also inside. I think with his with with a child, one of his children X. And behind the scenes, we report that David Ellison was getting pretty frustrated as he was waiting for this regulatory approval for the merger. And Paramount was has negotiated a high stake settlement with Trump. And again, Trump had filed this lawsuit against CBS because of the alleged deceptive editing of the interview with then VP Kamala Harris. Sorry, just want to set the stage here for those that are not familiar with it. So around this time, David Ellison calls a Paramount director named Barbara Bern. And he is on this call expressing his frustration because he was very eager for this merger to close. And he heard it would take 49.5 million dollars to settle. And this is according to our sources. Bern then tells Ellison they should not be talking and goes to inform Paramount's general counsel and the board about this. This is all according to our sources. Yes, they paid it. What was the ultimate number? 45? In July 2025 Paramount settled for $16 million. Oh, that's right. That one was 16. Yes. And the merger was approved by regulators soon after. So it was actually a fraction of that 49.5 mill. So Barbara told the Wall Street Journal of Statement David called to vent about how protracted the settlement process had become. There was no intent to transmit information intervene or collude in the settlement. In fact, the settlement negotiations were well known to us as the company was negotiating via outside counsel with the Dean Tiff's counsel through a mediator. Love it. Just excellent work on all sides. Yeah, a hat tip to my colleagues on that. So they're just not doing themselves any favors when it comes to the appearance of corruption. I don't want to use the corruption word. I just want to like the close tie. You don't want to use it, but you did say it. I did say it, but then I qualified by saying, I don't want to call it corruption. I just want to call it an extremely close relationship that has emerged between this very wealthy, powerful family and the head of the government that they need to approve the creation of a massive media company. Is that a fairer way to it to assess it? Yeah. I mean, a big question is like, is this the way that business is done these days? Is this being normalized? Is it not? I mean, so much of why we're writing this story is to like connect some of these dots. And look, I'm not naive. I think that, you know, you could ask anyone whether it with Democratic presidents or Republican presidents, there's always money that changes hands from companies to administrations in different ways. Lobbyists have their job for a reason. Like, I'm not naive in saying that doesn't happen, but the scale here of the amount of money. And by the way, it wasn't just the $45 million that Larry Ellison wrote to Trump's 2024 reelection campaign. We also report that Larry has given millions since then. And some of that money has gone toward Trump's legacy projects. So there's millions that are really coming through here. It's the scale of the money. And then there's some very clear what seemed to be advantages that are happening. And as you pointed out earlier, it's not like one company. It's so fascinating. There's like a couple different big large companies here that are doing pretty well. And I don't want to be naive either. I mean, I obviously we're not going to be naive on this podcast, Matt. Okay. We are not. This kind of stuff does happen. It's just usually a little more laundered or discrete as with everything with Trump. It just everything seems to be out in the open now. And well, it is, but it isn't, because don't you know, don't forget this. These millions were not out in the open. I didn't scour federal action commission. You know, I was that person. Like, I'm sure there was a faster way for AI to do this. But I also really did manually look to make sure I wasn't missing anything. So this was dark money. And this is not the first time that someone used like C4s and, you know, not disclose political donations in different ways. But yeah, it's it's different. And that's what we hear from people. It's it's different. It's more money. There's more closeness. There's also like different ways to give because there are all these different legacy projects now. It's not just like this one C4 that everyone just gives to. It's like, there's all these different buckets. So yeah, it's a pretty it's the Wild West out there right now. So ultimately, does any of this matter? That's the real question. Like, will these machinations ultimately come back to haunt them? I doubt it. I mean, this there are the this anti-trust case that the California Attorney General might bring. And the problem here is that none of this is anti-trust really. It just kind of smells terrible. But like the underlying anti-trust case is like from everything I've read, like not that strong. Let's not have a short memory about Larry Ellison also tapping his ties to the White House because the Department of Justice had launched a probe into whether Netflix engaged in anti-competitive tactics when Netflix was trying to do the deal with Warner Brothers. And that ultimately chilled that Netflix deal and cleared the path for the Ellison led Paramount bid. So I know that's like old news now, but like that happens. Yeah, well, it chilled it, but I don't think that's what really stopped it. I think the fact that Paramount came over the top and outbid them was the bigger factor. But I guess they saw problematic path for themselves at Netflix and dropped out. I agree. I'm not saying it's the only thing. I'm just saying Larry Ellison had ties to the White House and this DOJ probe like that's it. Those are just not isolated situations. So if you're like Elizabeth Warren or any of the anti-trust people, are you just waiting for Congress to turn to go after Paramount, Warner Brothers? God, I'm gonna be so annoyed with this. I'm sorry. I wonder if the bigger question is and what I hear from a lot of my sources, whether it's Paramount or other sectors is whether the Democrats are going to take power and the House or the Senate come November or both. And then what will happen with not just a deal like this, but a lot of other deals because there have been a lot of deals that have gone through very quickly. There's been a lot of business practices that have happened. Obviously, it's no secret. This is a much lower regulatory environment that businesses and companies are very happy about. And I'm not saying whether that's good or bad. All I'm saying is I know companies are thinking we might have just a couple months to go before things could change. So what do we need to do to get our stuff over the finish line and be in the clear? I have to imagine Paramount's having some of those conversations too. And look, we know that David Ellison has made his case for the deal to various state AGs like it's not just on the federal side. He's like working his, you know, his connections and trying to get, you know, approval and trying to get people to be on his side elsewhere in government. And, you know, time will tell. I hate saying that, but it's true. I get it. It seems like that's where we are, where this is the normal for right now, but it could change. And I just wonder what what the Democrats can actually do once these deals are consummated, not very much. Yeah, I mean, the Democrats have to first organize their party. And there's so many other things after that, but we should just stop there because that has to happen first. Yeah, we'll see. All right, well, this is all fascinating. I appreciate you coming on and giving us your insights. We are officially submitting this one for a Pulitzer. I love it. I'll try to get as much and tell on that as I can. Thank you, Matt. Thank you. We are back with the call sheet. Craig, first, a little accountability. Big squeaker last weekend with Toy Story. I took the over on 160. And on Sunday, the estimate was exactly 160 and then a brutal kick in the nuts on Monday morning. The actuals came in and it was 159.7 for the weekend. So I will take the loss on Toy Story. We also said that we felt like it would get into the 170s. We thought it would blow past 160. So it is a real. We did. I know. I was a little too bullish. I am frankly a little surprised. It wasn't higher, even though it's an amazing opening. But this weekend, we've got the opposite of that. We've got a franchise that seems to not be connecting. Supergirl, tracking is it about 50. Honestly, this one, I mean, what are the comps for this? We can't go back to Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman, right? That was 153 for Captain Marvel and 103 for Wonder Woman. That was 2017, 2019, like completely different time. Now it's like, I don't know if you want to compare it to the Marvels, the sequel to Captain Marvel, to Thunderbolts. I don't know what, but I actually think the point, the fact that there's no comp is the point, which is wearing such a weird place right now. And I stand by the fact that I think the Marvel and and the DC Superhero universe. He's heading towards the cliff, and we'll probably end up being a good thing long term. But I think this is what we are right now. Even if Avengers Doomsday is big, I don't think that means superheroes are back. If I'm Peter Safran and James Gunn at DC, this is not the movie I want coming out right before the company is sold to Paramount and the Paramount people are deciding my fate going forward. Yeah. Also, I don't know. Going in, I feel like this was just sounded like a risk the second it was announced. A super girl movie with a star who's, you know, not super famous yet. Even though she's, I heard she's good in the movie. But this just felt like a long shot from the beginning. Yeah. And they thought that by planting it in Superman that that movie was well received and did okay, ended up, you know, open to 125 and ended up in like, I believe it was almost 800. No, six something worldwide. But they thought that that was all they needed. And that they could reset the franchise and then start coasting, turns out people want quality every time. The right tomato score on this one is low. The Metacritic is, I think below 50 at this point. And I'm going to take the under on 50 million, I will take the under two. I'm honestly, I'm not even that sure how quality dependent it is. Obviously, that matters. I just think the superhero storyline is stale. It's been going on for almost 20 years. Yeah. There are natural ebbs and flows to things, you know, in genres and Hollywood. And I just think we're at the end, we're at an eb right now. So you're not excited for clay face in the fall, an R rated DC movie. Uh, maybe that'll do better. Maybe it'll play more horror and people will go see it because it's R rated and then like the ceiling will be lower, but people will like it. But these like big, broad studio superhero movies, I just feel like it's going to be really hard. Today is holding on for dear life and hits a billion and a half. I don't feel confident that like the next 10 years, it's just going to be filled with great superhero movies. Well, sad for DC because that's kind of the only value that they have. But I do think they could be reinvented. I do think it's quality. I think if it's cool, it's cool and good and resonates, then people will show up. This one just feels lazy. It just does. And I haven't seen it. You haven't seen it. The premier was in New York, but it does feel lazy. He did a good job hiding it. I will say, as of like Tuesday, I had not talked to anyone who had seen it and I was asking around. And finally, after the premiere, people started to see it, low and behold, the late critical embargo classic tactic there. They put out a story in the trades about how lucrative all the marketing partnerships were. The big tell was that Craig Gillespie, the director. He announced his next project, or a project that he has loosely attached to a day before the reviews for this movie came out. It's a Glen Powell movie. He's like, I got something lined up. I got something lined up. It feels like it's a rock at a hard place. You say, oh, it needs to be new and good and people will go see it. But the only way people will go to the movie is if it has the old stars, which is the Doomsday approach. So how do you make it new and cool with the same actors? That is the challenge of the superhero universe these days. And we'll see. Spider-Man is about to come out. It's going to be gigantic. So we'll probably be talking differently then. So all right. That's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Emily Glazer, producer Craig Horlbeck, art of their John Jones and Jesse Lopez. And I want to thank you. We will see you next week.