How Kathy George Outpaced the Industry | President, Spherion Staffing & Recruiting

My conversation today is with Kathy Dorge, who president us, Sphereon, staffing and recruiting. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited to be your guest. Well, I'm excited to have you here. You know, I think that the world of staffing and recruiting is one of those non-sexy franchises, which I am personally always interested in because it's those non-sexy brands that sometimes have the most profit power. And so I'm excited to jump in today with you. Well, we love it. Good. Okay. Well, we're going to start with what's going on in business today. What are the things that are keeping you up at night? Well, for, I'll tell you a couple things. One is technology adaptation. So we're having, you know, every other business out there right now. There's the use of AI, but also any sort of technology. And I have franchisees who we can't run fast enough for them. Yeah. But mostly I have franchisees who are wanting to take a let's let's take a let me take a step back. Let me wait and see. Let me see how it works out for other people. So adapting to the use of technology, because it's a change, right? And it's a big change. And it feels like it happens fast. That's really a big challenge. And, you know, it's funny because, you know, you have other people who are saying, hey, we're going to be left behind. We don't move fast enough. So finding that balance and learning how to get them excited about technology is really key. Well, and you know, in my experience, technology changes are you're explaining it exactly right. Right? You have the people who are itching for the next thing. And then you have the folks who like are still working with what you have. The biggest challenge I see in the technology piece is that change management. Is testing and learning the tool in the right amount of time and then rolling it out with a true rollout program? I'd love to hear about how Svaryon manages those rollouts. Well, you know, that's a really interesting question because I've learned that you have to have, you have to bring the fantasies along from the very beginning. And the ones who are excited about it becomes your advocates. They test it, they be. And it doesn't mean that we don't try to, we actually try to, I always say, let's get the snipers out of the woods. So the ones who are going to be your biggest nasaers, let's bring them along as well in the very beginning. And they can be your most powerful advocates. So we really try to roll things out on a, on a phased path of communication, first explaining the need. Why do we need this? How will it help them? You know, they don't really care as much about it. How it helps us, right? It's how it will help them. And, you know, a lot of times, especially if it's going to lead to increased productivity by your profitability for them, that's really the path that we take. But they might be thinking about their comfort leveling, utilizing it. So we've provided a lot of training and hands on and use it and give us feedback of what do you think. And that has really made a big difference for us. So we have franchisee-led committees when there are things like that. So we're like, we don't want to influence you. You guys talk about it. Come back. Okay. So there's some suggestions. What, how, what are the, the pluses you can see in there? So whether the negative is what should be be prepared for? Yeah. That's really helped us. Okay. So we rolled out, rolled out a new CRM in, in December. And months before we started building towards that, because we need to have 100% of adoption and often this expensive technology. That's right. Yeah. But now it's using AI, for example, huh? Yeah. Well, and I love the saying, get the snipers out of the woods. I haven't heard that before. That's brilliant. Yeah. And tell me, how are you prioritizing the technology changes? You mentioned productivity, profitability. I've led technology at one of the brands that I was with. And what I loved about leading that from a marketing perspective is that I prioritized revenue generating initiatives. That's right. Whereas, you know, if marketing wasn't leading it, sometimes those productivity operations led initiatives get prioritized. How are you thinking about prioritizing your tech stack? Is that-- Those are the questions you're asking. Profitability is a big. So last year-- I said last year-- Yeah, so beginning of last year, probably even the year before, we said, I'm going to focus on the pillars of growth. Okay. And profitable growth, really. So it's mutual profitability. Really, really wanted to make sure that our free and tezis work profitable. That we had strong unit economics. And then evolution. We're an 80-year-old brand. And we want to go another 80 years. So we have to evolve. We can't just wait and see. We can't have the world happening around us. So growth, profitability, and evolution were sort of our key pillars. I included performance in there and the sort of feeds the others as well, because we realized that we had another challenge. We had franchisees who wanted to be super-- have a lot of autonomy, but not standardization. They weren't following. Okay. Or standards. So that sort of fed that was another challenge. Yeah. Just stepped back. Well, in order to feed growth and for their own profitability, we needed to have increased sales. We have become very, very service-oriented. And not sales-oriented. So I did-- we do prioritize the things that are going to drive our sales first, which is why in our tech stack, we looked at our CRM first, so we can manage how the visibility, uniform visibility, and to how we might be able to help our franchisees and to grow. Yeah. And some of the conversations that I'm having with marketers is around the changing landscape around new customer acquisition is very difficult to navigate. And costs are going up across the board. And so while working on that is important, moving the conversation to conversion, to how are you managing the lead that you are getting, to your point, building out that technology, building out a single CRM source of truth. This is the first step. And then we have this level of visibility. Now, of course, we have to enforce usage of it. And that really is where another big struggle comes in, right? It is like, how do you get them to-- Adoption. How do you enforce it? Right? How do you-- First of all, want them to adopt it before having to be the heavy and consequences? It's about letting them see that this benefits the whole brand. So those are the conversations. But having our franchisees involved in the process, they're the ones driving the message as well. It's not just us. It's not us versus them. It's like, we need to do this together. We have a collective goal and collaboration. Exactly. So I love the pillars that you laid out. The focus is so important as a leader to bring to your team. How do you keep them focused? And I'm asking this selfishly because in the brands that I've served and the brands that I work with, the bright and shiny chase is real. And saying no is often the biggest challenge that I see teams face. Yes. We set a collective goal. So I actually set a collective two-year goal. And this came from Franceses. I was talking to Franceses. What do you suggest? What do you think? And I'm almost tenured Franceses as well as our newest. And someone mentioned to me, you know, what would be nice if we had one collective goal? We each have our growth goals. It would be great if we have one yet. And so this was probably-- before I'm talking about maybe a day before I got up on stage or on a meeting last year. Oh, yeah. It was like the evening before I happened to have this conversation with this franchisee. And I get up and I say, here's our collective goal. And it's a two-year goal. That means at the end of this first year, we need to be here. And at the end of the second year, we'll be here. We will be our competitors. And they love that. They have this collective goal. And we didn't make it complicated. We said, OK, every franchisee, if you could grow by this mod, this is where we will be. And we followed the 20-mile march. I never heard of the 90-mile march. Tell me more. Yeah. So it is-- I'm going to say this the-- I think it's Jim Collins. And I'm trying to remember the name of the book. So they're with me. But we decided to go on this 20-mile march together, which is, do not be distracted by what's going on out there. So whether it's socioeconomic, political, anything, it does not matter. If you get up every day and you do the same, the same study pace, then you are not as impacted by a condition. So many times you have people who freeze, right? Oh, times are bad. They're excuses. How can you expect me to grow? I mean, everything's bad. You see what's going on out there. We can't. We can't let that distract us. We have to keep going. So you get up and you put in a 20-mile so every day no matter what. So it doesn't matter what's happening. Now, it's not the minimum. It's not a bare minimum. It's probably a little bit more than that. But you don't go too fast and then stop. You don't go too slow. And then think you're going to catch up. It's a steady pace. Well, they love that analogy. And so every week we reported collectively the whole community could see. Here is where we are in our 20-mile march. And we reinforced it. It became part of our doubt. And so monthly calls with our franchisees, quarterly town halls with franchisees and their colleagues working for them. Weekly performance metrics that could see where everyone was in meeting their goals. And they started helping each other. They saw people would be close to hitting that goal and say, let me help you. How can I help you? Wow. And that's where the magic happens. It is. And then as people started crossing the threshold, we would spotlight them on our monthly calls and say, tell us, what are you doing that could help others? And it was just fantastic. So that really helped us. Otherwise, I'm very tough here, right? It's very tough. It is. It gave us some common goal. And it was a steady march. And at the end of last year, we said, OK, our 20-mile march continues. It worked for us. We outpaced our competitors. We outpaced our parent company in a time where everyone was saying the same thing. is what our industry was forecasted to lose money. We grew. And so we beat the industry standards. And so they saw that it worked and it built that credibility. This year, I might do it a little bit differently where I am. I want the people who it is a struggle to meet that one down in goal. I want them to have more for shot. So we're going to stagger it a bit. And the ones who are largest are okay with that. They say, yes, we're we're happy to do more. And so we're balancing it. So it's even more exciting. Well, Kathy, I'm inspired just hearing about this. And part of it is a lot of times, you know, you have painted this picture of a path. You set the school a conference and then you have a follow-up every week, a follow-up every month and everything is leading to it. Again, just inspired listening to you. I want to know, taking back through your career and your journey, what it has led you to understanding that this continuity of a message and this focus of goal is really the way to galvanize the community. You know, I learned from so many people. I will say that there it's a building block. It's no one day. Now, I'll tell you just personally in my journey, I came to the U.S. I was born in New York, but and then I went back. And the first year of my life, I was spent in the Caribbean and Trinidad. And so I, not just the first year I was in New York and then the rest until I was a teenager, I lived in Trinidad. And coming to the U.S., all I saw was opportunity. And I came just to go to college. So I'm coming to college, I'll go back home to Trinidad. And there was so much opportunity and I never take that for granted. I'm a hard worker. And so, you know, I see my experiences going through working really hard, but myself through college. I didn't know it was crazy to work at a full-time job as a manager, 40 hours a week and go to college full-time. I had no idea. Isn't that the best? But you don't know, you don't know. Exactly. I had no, I literally went to college full-time where other people may have had a part-time job. I had a full-time job and luckily there was flexibility in my hours, so I was able to do that. And so I've learned a lot along the way. And, but I've had some great mentors as well. And that's where I really learn a lot as well is I learn from others. And I think one of the biggest learnings for me when I step into this role is attending the CEO's summits at the franchise leadership and development conference in Atlanta in October. I've been to the last two and those have just been really, really instrumental. You have people who are willing to mentor you and as you step into this role, that could be really lonely sometimes. You don't have a career. You're telling you what to do. Exactly. And my peers and my business are not wanting a franchise division. So it's a completely different language. And so that has been really, really helpful for me as well. And I just learn from them and for others and say, okay, yeah, more about listening, more about collaborating and really clearly defining a path forward for everyone. Is there a lesson that you didn't realize you were learning in your career? Can you think back on a moment that you came back to? I think communication, clear communication. You know, feel like at some stage in my career, I had very traditional managers, where I was an us versus them and you never told you never you never shared enough. So it's very hard when you are working towards something common. If you don't really know what's the big picture? What's the end goal? What's the clear path forward? You might be working really, really hard and thinking you're making great great. It's not in the right path. So for me, I tried with my team and including with my franchisees, I've provided more visibility than they've ever had before, more transparency. You know, so I will talk about here's our goal. Here's where we are. Here's how we're perceived by our parent company. Here's what we need to do and rallying them together. And I think that transparency has really paid off. But that was a chef because it was a very traditional way of communication before. It's us against them. The franchise or versus the franchisee don't let them know. They want to do right. This is their investing in this. It's probably going to be very longer than we all are. Right. Then and their next generation. So we have to give that visibility and transparency. And then use some as advisors too. Let me know. Is there something I'm not thinking about? And I would also apply that to your team. I work with leaders a lot in my work. And the leaders believe that they are being transparent. And then the folks that are under them feel like, wait, I don't have all the information I need in order to make the best decision. And so there is a, and I think that what you're referencing, I'm very familiar with, it's kind of it. It is an old school. I'm going to protect the information. But the way I see it transpiring right now is that there's a there's a thought process that I am transparent. But the reality is not really coming through. And so you have to have some intentionality that's right behind it. And so we do quarterly employee surveys. And it wasn't just my direct reports, but their direct reports. I pay attention. I read I respond. And I thought we were being clear in the beginning on our goals. But I think we weren't going down to the level enough. So painting the also educating them right. They were hearing it. But they didn't know what it meant. So in context of how does it meet their roles? How can they contribute? So that continuous build on that. And like this is, and I'm very transparent with them now about like, and this is how you fit in the good and the bad. And this is, oh, maybe this is a franchisee perspective. This is what you so think about our ratings have increased. So the feedback they're getting is they really do feel like they understand they have a clear picture. They know our path for they know our challenges. They know how they contribute to it. So yes, absolutely right. You can't have one without the others. It's not just a franchisee's, but it's your team. Yeah. And there's nothing that I'm hiding from anybody. So I know that while I'm here at this conference and they're continuing running our business, they have enough context to make the right decisions. They don't need to say I need to call they need to call me to get make a decision. They they have enough context. Man, I am really enjoying this conversation. You know what I'm taking away is clarity and message. And so that continuity helps with the clarity. Yes. You had a message at the conference. You had a framework of how you're going to follow through with that message. But then also the feedback loop, right? We talked about the franchisee community committees. We talked about the surveys that you're doing and your internal team. And so you're combining them both to really execute a reality of collaboration. Yes. And the feedback loop is so important. I love that you said that because it's not about trying to convince overcome someone's feedback. But this is not working. We really want to know, tell me why can you explain or show me why? What have you tried? Because sometimes there's something really legitimate. And yeah, you know, the worst thing you can do is just try to convince. If you just try it a little bit longer or you know, there's an assumption sometimes that they just don't understand or they don't get it. No, you're utilizing it. You need to let us know what is your real concern and getting to that. And that really sometimes sometimes you do get to the point where it's just training or education. But the fact that you're willing to listen and you know, just trying to shut them down is very, very. Look, I'm guilty of it. You know, if I'm launching something and it makes sense to me, right, I can get frustrated if it doesn't make sense to you. Exactly. And that feedback loop, like you said, if you take the moment to say, like, okay, let's get curious about why we're getting this feedback. It kind of shifts the mindset to, it's not that they're pushing back on what we're doing. We just need to get curious about what the road block is. That's exactly right. Yes. That makes sense. Well, I want to shift gears a little bit to where you think we're going. Where do you hope or what do you hope we keep doing as a franchise industry? Well, you know, one of the things I love about our franchise industry is that you can have anyone, you know, anyone like a delivery driver. So I heard this yesterday, but a delivery driver can become the largest franchise in a franchise concept. I hope that never changes. Right. The opportunities that we provide to people. I want to get into that. Wait, I want to stop you right there because I have so many conversations with CEOs and with founders around their avatars for their franchise. And the avatar that everyone lands on is not the delivery driver. It is somebody with business experience. Somebody with experience in this industry. And I push back because for me, just to your point, anyone can open a small business. And it's not about the experience that you're bringing to the table. And I'm curious what your take is because for me, what I tell them is the difference is can you face adversity? And do you have the grit to do what it takes to be a small business owner? That's the factor that you're looking for. And I'd like to know what you think. Absolutely. I mean, and again, it goes back to my perspective as someone coming from the Caribbean, right? It's like a land of opportunity. You're living the American dream. You know, you the fact that you're willing to work hard and you have that grit and I call it hustle. I always like if you have that hustle, I love to see that in our franchise. Yeah, it's bikes, right? That is really key. And that is, I think, the beauty of franchising is that you have people from a wide variety of backgrounds. I don't believe that you have one size fits all. And those are the people that, you know, you see running and leading our largest organizations. I think it is that those people was individuals who are willing to work hard with it, families with themselves, and to see it pay off, and they, you know, there's no dream too large with them. You know, and for us, that is incredible. And I think being able to see that opportunity, I think franchising presents that opportunity to people in a more accessible way, but you're in business for yourself, but not by yourself. That is so key. We hear it over and over again. That's really the core of what we do. So I love that concept when I always like to ask people, how did you get here? Like what was your background? Because it's just so varied, totally agree. Yeah. And that's what keeps you successful as well. At the end of the days, I've hard work that grit. You could teach anybody anything, any franchise concept. You know, you could teach them, but you can't teach them that grit in the hustle, in the tenacity, and the resilience to keep going when it knocks you down, because, yeah. Well, all right. So in one sentence, what does franchising need more of? I think we need more focus on the unit economics, strong unit economics, and less focus on expansion, just for the sake of expansion. Yeah. What do you think happens when we do that? Well, because I think sometimes we're so focused on expansions that we don't have the right infrastructure to make people be successful. We don't have the right support level. I mean, there's so many other things I could think of. And that's just the top of my head. Yeah. I really do think that there's so much focus on expansion right now, and it's not always the best interest of the franchisee. So it's not set up to be successful with that headwind. And we've grown by however many years. I really think that real strong focus on strong unit economics is key. Yeah. So maybe flipping those franchise development headlines instead of-- That's exactly a hundred units. Yeah. To flip it. You know, one of the big things we're focusing on this year is investing in not just investing in technology, but investing in our franchisee skills. OK, that is really key for us this year as well. We have gaps. Are there specific skill gaps? Are you developing programs that kind of broad strokes address all skill gaps? Broadstroaks. So not-- Yeah, because some of these are very common. And then by their own admission as well, especially ones who've been doing it for a long time. And maybe they were really great as single unit operators, but as they get bigger, they're not as great with that. But financial literacy is huge right now, business ownership skills, really, there's some things there as well. The teachable moment. The teachable-- Yes. And then just technology making it comfortable for them utilizing and embracing technology and NDI and how it might be able to help them be profitable. That's really what we're doing as well. Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah, but that is that focus because I want them to grow, but I want them to grow in a way that is sustainable. Yeah. Well, and it's a big shift going from single unit to multi unit. It's completely different. You do have to broaden that skill set. And I think to part-- you talked a little bit about the power of franchising and franchising being in business for yourself, not by yourself. And part of that is-- look, we spend a lot of time at work. And so helping our franchisees build the business skills, the business skills sets to reach their dreams and not necessarily always focused on your specific industry. But like you said, financial literacy, managing people, expanding to new locations-- those are skills that sometimes franchisees need to learn on the job. And this is probably opening up another animal arms. But some of my franchisees that have been expanding like that now be want to bring their kids into it. And I don't know how big it changes. I have right now is how to create a structure where the next generation franchisees are prepared. Because I have a lot of kids off my franchisees who want to become franchisees right now. They don't have the same skill sets. They don't have the same grit. They don't have the same experience that their parents had getting to this point. And so trying to build a program which is slower than the power that the parents envisioned for them. Now we have to get them there. But that is-- That's interesting. I have very large pockets of my business dependent on people who are not as experienced. Right. Because I have people who are ready to retire and they want their kids to be ready to take over this business. That's a big vulnerability in our system at least. Well, and it's succession planning. It is a succession planning. But how-- I guess I hear you on it being a bit of a challenge. But how wonderful that you've been able to support a system that has a business that can have a second generation to come in. We've had three generations in four. Wow. Yeah, in some cases we've had four generations. But right now we have a lot of two's, but many three's as well for a generation. Well, and Kevin, that's-- Almost to have a burden for you. It's a president of this company to be putting together a support system. And like you said, a lot of times, especially with four generations, they're going to outlast you. Yes. How do you think about how you're taking care and of inserting the brand from the next gen? Yeah. Well, it is, again, that communication and that transparency. Because in some ways, you're going to have to have some very uncomfortable conversations with franchisees. So we first started with creating-- I use my current franchisees to create a profile of what an ideal franchisee is. And I use the third-party company so that we can use evaluations. And it's-- there's just data. It's data-driven. Say, OK, here's the path. So creating a path for them so they say, OK, if you really are interested in your kids coming aboard, this is the path. We have to slow it down. And you need to get them ready. And they're not going to be as ready. But we are putting responsibility on the current franchisees to fill the gaps. And it can teach them. But one of the things that I actually will be doing next month, our national meeting, is involving the franchisee and having my own CEO summit for them. And I want them to solve this problem together. And so I'm going to put that out to them and say that we're getting a lot of this right now. Here's what we have so far. What recommendations do you have? Because if they're part of the solution as well, then when it's their kids-- That's right. They're ready for it. And so that's really typical of what I do as well. I want them to see the challenges they were facing. And together, how do we do this? Guys, not everybody's going to be ready. Not everyone's going to be a fit. We actually frankly have some people who-- They may not be-- They may not be-- They're not even really interested in this, but their parents are pushing-- So the nuances to it. But I think together, we can come up with a system here. But because ultimately, I am and have had to say no to protect the brand. And not being told about protecting the brand, I have to look at, can this kid, my shot of college, no work experience, no leadership experience, no sales experience, can they handle this very large franchise should something happen to their parents? And what would the recipe to our entire business? So I have had to say no or not yet or conditionally, yes. But there's the path. This is the path. Yeah. Yes. Well, Kathy, it's been such a pleasure getting to know you and having this conversation. I think that what I'm pulling out of it is the collaboration that you bring to your system and theiosity that you're bringing to the system in regards to collaborating with your franchisees really has set up something of success for you. Thank you. Yeah. Such a pleasure talking to you. It's a great conversation. Well, thank you.