How JoySpring Scaled to 8 Figures Monthly on TikTok Shop

I will either get TikTok to work or I will go broke. I took this model and I have a side pet brand and applied the same model to that brand and 10th step brand in six months. You're smarter than me. Where you went into consumables way earlier. I think we went from 10,000 to over about 50,000 in November and DeSemre was pacing to over to over 10,000 but that was our first major promise on stock. You're not really into TikTok until you complete the stock out. If you can coach and develop it, I think that's a secret cheat code. Me and my CEO aren't going to be the job of thinking about the future and really building foundation not just to get through 12 months, but to get through three years. When you're growing TikTok, you're growing your entire business. And no other channel does that. What's up guys? We're back here at TikTok Shop Secrets. I'm super, super excited to have one of my good friends, Jason Pratt on the call today. Thanks so much for being here, Jason. Thanks man. Thanks for everybody, Mayo. Rafael Special. Honestly, we shout about TikTok Shop all the time and so for those that don't know Jason, he's the founder and CEO of Joy Spring, a kids wellness brand that's born from his family search for clean plant-based solutions after his wife's thyroid cancer diagnosis and his daughter's focus challenges. What started as a single Amazon product has grown into a purpose-driven company built on faith, family, and transparency. Jason, you've built like some of the powerhouse brands and multiple categories. TikTok Shop, it's pretty amazing. I mean, but let's maybe start a little bit a bit on your background. How'd you get started in this space? Yeah, man, I got to give my wife credit. We did the eBay drop shipping thing back in. Man, it's been probably 12 years now. You know, took a course, did something, did the hustle there for some side money, I guess I would say. And from there, I was always asking what's next, right? This is cool, but how can we turn it into something else? And took a few Amazon courses and I stumbled across ASM3. And that was blown away. I was blown away, man, to ASM3, shifted to Amazon. And over the next year, kind of moved away from drop shipping into brand building. And over the years, man, I've built probably seven different brands. Just all over the place, right? But the two that really stuck on the two that I have today and Joy's Spring is the one that for us. You know, it wasn't even something we planned out. And I think God had bigger ideas than what I had. But as you mentioned, my daughter was going through some things. She has IDD and social anxiety and just looking in the market, you know, we didn't want to touch pharmaceutical stuff and the natural stuff. And so, you know, lots of the product and it blew up. And so you marry, you know, that sort of Amazon skillset with tapping it to a massive need for a lot of passionate parents and, you know, you get Joy's Spring. So it's been a fun ride. That's amazing. And so just for, I guess, context of when were you doing the eBay and when did you kind of like, I guess, launch Joy's Spring out of curiosity? Yeah. eBay was around 2013 2012 to 2014. That was sort of the, that was sort of the range, man. So I'm an OG in the space and over time, we shipped it more to Amazon. Still drop shipping on Amazon, right? And then we shifted to building out brands, right? So my very first brand was a, this duty product we did. And I, I can't remember what it was, but it was something I had no idea what I was doing. We, you know, order 50 bottles, lunched in, and it sold. And I was like, oh crap, like this actually works. And then I had to think of, you know, what category do I actually want to be in? And so that's where we actually lean into kids. We had a kids arts and crafts brand. That was a lot of fun, man. It was called B-Tastic. And so it might be some old school photos still out there, man. But yeah, dude, that was, that was our first sort of kids brand, loved it. Wife, you know, Terry, Terry, we're in a lot of stuff on that brand. But over time, I just, I've had this passion for wellness and, you know, I knew Trishin, if he was a fad, and so, and my wife kind of has this very holistic nature about herself. And so, man, it just makes sense. Once we wrote into the joy spring, that was probably around 2015. When we first started testing joy spring, and then 2016 is where we kind of formally said, okay, this is a, this is a thing. This is a LLC and, you know, it's been a rocket ship since. That's amazing. Yeah, I started around the same time, but you're smarter than me. Where you went into consumables way earlier, we were, yeah, you know, you get in like one off products until like 2020. And so, yeah, it's cool to hear like, yeah, the kind of the good old days of Amazon and now, seeing that with TikTok shop in this, like kind of, we were talking before, but this kind of new golden era. And so, when did you guys first get on TikTok shop, out of curiosity and kind of what did I look? It's funny, man, I actually was going through slap the other day, and I was talking about TikTok shop back in like 2021, 2022. But in that era, it was more about advertising. That was the big thing is, you know, Java ads, the leading pages, and, you know, final pages to Amazon and all that sort of stuff. But from a shop perspective, it was about March April. That was the first note that I could find. And I remember we had an ordeal come up on Amazon as everybody does, you know, walks through twice a year. And, you know, obviously it's determined. We have got to go find, you know, a second channel. And, you know, we had several channels that we, you know, 5% of Amazon, you know, 3% of it, right? We had all the Walmart's and the Shopify's and all that sort of stuff. But what really hit me is, you know, we had a sizable team at this point. If something were to ever happen to this channel, we don't have a second channel that like really fundamentally keeps the thing going. And so, that was sort of my quest is to go and figure out what that second channel was. And to talk with it, man, and it, it, I would tell you, it was very rocky. The first three to six months, we probably had our catalog frozen twice. I think the entire thing, right? We couldn't figure it out, you know, compliance and being in the kids' supplement space, there's, you know, a lot of, a lot of things around that. That I just couldn't figure out, man. I would, I would wake up every morning and something that was been taken down and then I started working on another product and then that's taken down a week later. And so, I kind of quit, man. I read it for a few months and they just sort of like, "Hey, this doesn't work for us." You know, I got really annoyed that summer. But I went to an MDS conference in Denver. And my mission was to go talk to the guys who had figured it out. Clearly somebody's figuring this stuff out. So, sending them all the sessions in Alex Bonilla, you know, as I told him before, I was like, "He had this orange halo around him." Because as he was talking, he was speaking to me, speaking to my soul. And after the, after his session, we connected outside, man. And I was like, dude, like, I will, I will either get to work or I will go broke. Like, those only only two options, right? Like, no joke. And so, yeah, Alex has been an awesome resource, man. But dude, the way he talked about it just makes sense, right? It's just the like him one. So, we figured out the compliant stuff. And, you know, there's a couple other guys in the MDS group that were awesome. But yeah, it just clicked, man. And it wasn't, you know, the first, I think it was, it was either the second or third product that really took off for us. But yeah, it was about six months of work before it really started taking off for us. Got it. And so, this is like summer of 2024, then, right? Exactly. Got it. And that's when you're making like this really like big push. And so, like, you know, from my understanding, it's like you and Gina, kind of like from the beginning. And so, like, how did you guys think about it? And so, it was a dividing responsibility. Is what were you guys working on? Like all that kind of stuff? Yeah. Yeah, and it's certainly more folks on the team, you know, I want, you know, shout out to all those guys. But yeah, from a marketing perspective, Gina and I are sort of the two, you know, brains on that front. Gina was really doing an awesome job in our other marketing folks with driving, driving to tuck ads. That was our big thing at that point. I even think she was doing a little bit of content as well. But yeah, our big focus thing, we were seeing really good spill over to Amazon by driving traffic over to, you know, to landing pages or to Amazon funnel pages. So, that's what we were doing there. Well, I got, I got pulled in on just the shop side of it. So, wait, set up the shop, you know, set up the listings, you know, just kind of went through all that, you know, fundamental work to sort of get that stuff figured out. And as we started to get traction, my skill set is zero to one. I think we're really good at taking anything from zero to one. But once we get to one, that's when I handed off to, you know, to Gina and the team in Rachel and those guys. And so, yeah, she did a really awesome job. Once we sort of had proof of concept and taking that and just like, scaling it to the moon. So, yeah, it's an awesome dynamic. She and I are both sort of OG Amazon marketers. And so, we kind of speak the same language. And over time, I've, as she's just grown and become the marketer that she is, man, it allows me to just focus on like that zero to one stage. And then she can take it from there. That's smart. And so, like, how now that you guys have scaled up the channel and, you know, doing millions of revenue, like, what is the team look like? How has that changed over time on a curiosity? Yeah, we're actually recruiting a channel manager right now. So, if you're watching this, let me know. But yeah, so our marketing organization, Gina, Gina's our head of growth or head of marketing. And under her, we have channel managers, right? So, Amazon Shopify to top. And under our tip top manager, we have our organic social. We have community managers. And then we have an agency that we use for advertising. So, it's a pretty, it's a pretty big operation, man. And so, I mean, there is a whole team of, you know, logistics and fulfillment and CX and operating as you know, like all those things come to play, but purely from a marketing perspective. That's how we look now. One thing that, you know, I am adamant about is having a really mean team. And so, we try to lean into software as much as we can into AI as much as we can so that we, you know, sort of grow, but grow in a lean fashion. And I think we've done a pretty solid job of that this year. That's amazing. And so he knows like overall growth so basically over like all three of those channels, Amazon, Shopify and TikTok. - Yeah, and we have a few unfortunate, man. We have a few really good marketers on the team. So my CEO has done a lot of work in her prior life in marketing agencies. And so she's able to add some really good insight on that sort of stuff. And then of course we have other marketers that will work under Gina on that front. But yeah, she's the one that really drives the marketing side of the bus. I probably throw a lot of ideas, you know what I mean, 25% of them might be good. But Gina, Gina's sort of, she draws all the execution on the marketing side of it. - That's amazing. And then she has like a right hand person that you said was gonna do the community management, is that right? - Yeah, so we have channel managers under Gina and then we have community managers under the channel managers, right? And so we do Discord, I think we do some WhatsApp as well. And we have our Discord, we actually have two different Discords, one for English, one for Spanish. Our Spanish creators are questioning right now. So I think that might be a unique setup for us. I know maybe other brands do that differently, but yeah, we split those apart and you know, type in in the future growth. Very excited about two top Macs ago. That's something that's on the roadmap. Based on what we're seeing. So yeah, so that's the structure that works for us. You know, we try to not be really fit say to know one thing. You know, every year we try to look at our structure and you know, white boarded out like, hey, you know, for start over, does this make the most sense? Should we, you know, change it up? But yeah, that's what's been working for us so far. That's awesome. And so now that you've seen like this success on this channel, like how does it reshaped how you think about growth for your brands, like, you know, for the rest of 2025 and going into next year as well. Yeah, dude, I think I talked to a lot of brand owners about this. I think at this point, everybody associates me with TikTok, right? Like if you talk to me about any question, it could be a personal question about your kid. I'm gonna talk about TikTok. Because I think that's what the model is, right? I think the model these days and growing a brand is to talk is really your top of funnel play. I mean, that's your first channel to go to hell. And then Amazon is really where, you know, we didn't into that for profit and subscribing save and all those things. Amazon is still our biggest channel, right? It's still our biggest channel. To talk about 32% of our revenue, right? And so I think it's that big. And then I think everything else stats on top of that, you know, Shopify retail, all those other channels. And it's, you know, I took this model and I have a site, Pat Brand that has, I've had for a while and applied the same model to that brand and 10x that brand in six months just this year. Not nearly the budget of Joy's Freeing or the size of Joy's Freeing. So the same model was working into different industries. And so, yeah, we still spend marketing dollars on Amazon, but TikTok is sort of the first thing that we think about in terms of how we're going to grow the business. That's insane. I mean, can you go a little bit deeper into like, how did you 10x of brand in six months? Like that's, yeah. I mean, I think there was, there was low hanging fruit because it, you know, it was existing for a bit. And so there was some low hanging fruit stuff. Just one Amazon, cleaning up the things and not promote some things like that. But really the heart of it for me was taken to hero product and just going all in on to talk. Doing everything that I need to do from Joy's Freeing. What was unique about the Pat Brands? So, you know, Joy's Freeing, a much more in a strategic seat, right? But now the Pat Brand is sort of my playground, right? So I get to test out all these theories and ideas. And what I did there that was unique is I was running a, I was running retainers. I had a few retainer deals running and I started looking into ads every day and started GMV campaigns, right? And started just sorting, you know, all this creators doing well, sort just for their videos. Look at that, look great. It's looking at commercial rates, return on the investment. And I was screenshot it and actually share it with them. I would just DM 'em, hey, I'm Jason, owner of Fit the Vado. Just open up the relationship that way. And they, they loved it, man. You know, I had to explain here's what you're looking at. But what I saw there was they really appreciated somebody taking personal time to share their information and to help them make more money, right? That's one of the big, that's my model with creators is, I exist to help you make more money, right? And so from there we just sort of moved them into a, started a discord, moved them into a discord. And again, it's super small. We probably have around 25 to 30 right now. But it's still a small operation, man, but they just hit. So I think that there is, you know, I think a lot of this kind of goes back to creators, right? How are you managing creators? Both from an acquisition and a retention perspective, keeping them, it's in the virus motivated to keep posting for you. But also having a really unique product. This particular product, it's a mushroom powder, right? So it's kind of, you know, it's holistic, but it's kind of, it's a little niche, right? It just took off, man. I mean, there's a very clear, paying solution, dynamic there. And that went to golf. And what's interesting is a couple other products that we launched after that are a bit more broad, you know, joint and, you know, allergy, they haven't done as well. You know, the niche product probably to the work a little bit better. But yeah, it's really the same model. Aggressive on GMV, aggressive on commission, get the ball rolling, meaning it's retainers, was something that worked. And so as it started to move up, they not started plugging in, you know, people to kind of do some of the things that I couldn't do just because of Tom. But it's been a fun journey, man. It's fun for me because, you know, I get to, I get to see it work at scale. And then I get to see it work at a smaller level. And as I talk to a lot of brand owners, you know, most of those guys are probably more interested in the smaller brand because that's sort of where they are. And I'm probably unique in that I get to kind of see it from both angles and what it looks like. - That totally makes sense. That's so cool. And so you kind of mentioned that you start with like a really high commission. Does that mean that you guys end up like lowering it once you've kind of hit like scale basically? - Yeah, we do. So going back to Joy Spring, man, when we first launched it, we were like 50, we were hitting 50%. - It just out the gate through everything at the wall. - And this is back in like summer, maybe Q3. I mean, we would just throw everything at the wall. And the thought process there was, you know, it's no different than a launch one Amazon, right? I've always used the analogy of a plane taking off. A plane doesn't go slow taking off. You have to pick up as much speed as possible. Or another one is kind of a slingshot analogy, right? And so my view going into it was, I want us to lose money for, you know, three months, whatever it may be, 'cause we got to figure it out. Like we got to see if it works. If it weren't, it was going to change the business, right? And fundamentally, that's what it did. But yeah, we were super aggressive. Now, we don't go that aggressive these days. Joy Spring really doesn't have to, right? So I do think we tear up for our Discord creators in the 30s or so. So we still start a little higher and inch it down over time. The numbers are different these days, but that principle is the same. - That's really cool. And like, I guess when you guys were, it could be for either brand, but I'm curious, like how did you decide like which products to push out of curiosity? - Yeah, that was interesting. So on, on Joy Spring, the first one that we pushed was sort of a flagship hero product. It's one of the products that we know for it when Amazon. And that one, it was, all right, it never really took off, right? It didn't take off. And so this day, I think it probably still will work. It does okay, but it didn't really crush it. And what crushed it for is, and I don't know if it's strategy or product, but we looked into Trilling Keywords, right? I'll give Gina the credit for that. Yeah, she started looking into Trilling Keywords on TikTok. We had products that along with that, right? And so she launched that and we also had a bit of launch strategy. We know a little bit more about what we were doing. That was, that is what worked really well there. On the pet brand new, there were no keywords. The product is so niche. There were no keywords for that. When honestly, I think we just did an awesome job with problem solution being able to call out a various serious problem. And it's with dogs related to like cancers and tumors and things like that. So it's a very real serious problem that we were able to call out. And I think, you know, we just had some really good creators who just nailed it. It was just funny because I look at some other pet supplement brands and some of their top videos are the same symptoms at pain points as like, you know, my product. But there is has nothing to do with it, right? But people just, I don't know. He would just buy it. So it's been cool, man. But dude, I would tell you, I think Trilling Keywords is important. And I also think that products that show a very, that type of to a very real pain, right? That's why I think generic products, I don't know if they were as well. But our better products, I think type of to a very specific real pain. If any of the space that we play in, you know, with neurodiversity and, you know, some kids that might be on the spectrum of things like that, you have a very passionate, you know, user base who cares a lot about, you know, the problems that they're concerned with and they're very educated. And so it works that well for us. - That's amazing. That's cool how you guys have approached it. And so like kind of shifting gears a little bit. So when you're thinking about like, the major KPI that you're using to run either brand, like what are you kind of focused on and holding the team accountable to like, yeah, it's how do you think about it? - Yeah, this is one way. It's funny. I started to note over to Jaina and heard list of KPI's are really different than much. And so I would say at a high level, what I think about, obviously, GNV is one that you're thinking about. I think about shoppable videos per day, right? That is one of the first metrics. I remember asking that question to our account manager. I've asked it a couple of times and I could tell you hearing shoppable videos per day is one of the things that is how to import it. I don't know if his number's real enough, but I won't say names, but I heard some of the bigger supplement brands in the game are over 1,000 shoppable videos a day. And so that's been like a North Star that I've been chasing. I'm not sure I just ordered the first bar you want to pass. But that's one that I would say I probably look at the most, you know, probably on a weekly basis. I also think, you know, retainer's, retainer count is something that really helps to lead to that. You know, the bucket that I think about now is creator acquisition in a company. and create a retention, right? Probably no different than, you know, normal marketing, but how are we finding creators, is it retainers, is it groups, is it agencies, right? You know, is it organic through, through a cell-in center? How are we finding these guys? How are we onboarding these guys? And then how are we motivating them to continue to produce a video's course? And that's where you get into your, you know, motivation, it's in the charts on this sort of stuff. But coaching is one of the big things that I think we have, we saw earlier in the year that you can have a million creators, not like, you know, you don't just want the top one percent to be, right? You want to figure out how do we, now that there is a circle, how do we develop and grow them? How do we teach them analytics, some hooks and structure and refilming, re-editing some of those things? So that's something that we've been, you know, working on, you know, thinking about over the course of the year. And as we're recruiting, you know, a new channel manager, that's one of the things that we're going to be excited about them doing. That's, that's so smart. And like, so kind of what's your vision for this, like kind of coaching and development program? Yeah, I would say this. I mean, I think Goldie is world class for just their discord operation and their discord function. So that's the vision, you know what I mean? You know, we're not as broad market as Goldie for sure, but I think they do it right, right? And so, you know, I think some of the things that they do is kind of what we want to pull off. But ultimately for us, we want to be able to bring people in to our family, if you will. And, you know, three months later, six months later, these guys are going from 10,000 GMV to 100,000 GMV, right? The ability to take a solid creator, it made them an elite creator. I think it's like doubling your conversion rate, right? I mean, the hustle and bustle by costly final creators, I mean, it's a lot. It's a lot of things going to do it. But if you can coach and develop, and I think that's a secret cheat code, right? So that's what we've been thinking about. Totally. That's, yes, it's smart. It's something that we're constantly thinking about as well. It's like, it's so much easier to get one creator to go from 50 to 100 versus getting a bonder or to 10, you know what I mean? Yeah, we've actually done a good job of bringing in, taking some of our top performers and putting them in creator roles and also just kind of recruiting creators as well. But it's tough, right? Because when you're growing, it's almost like you wish you could press Paul's for 30 days and just focus on something. But yeah, we've been navigating a lot, but that's one of the things that I feel that we're getting better and better at the more we do it. For sure. And yeah, it's like, how do you incentivize? So like, or how are you guys to keep on incentivizing someone like that? Because if they're making 20 grand in commission, like it's like less attractive maybe to like go and coach. Yeah, well, I mean, we do offer in Cinell's for the coaching side of it. And I would have to, you know, talk to the team to kind of get more into the details because I haven't been super duper in the details on commission structure. But we do it. We stack commission on top of it. There is, there is a conversation for those that are coaching. I think there's a retainer there. And then there's a commission based on those that they're coaching, right? So they get a percent of their team. It's almost like an immolial model. If you think about it, but yeah, I mean, that's that's the ultimately kind of what we're testing out. That's awesome. Tell me about maybe one of like the biggest challenges that you guys have faced, you know, on TikTok and yeah, ultimately, how did you guys end up solving it? Yeah, man. Supplatching. Yeah, man. I'm probably everybody can tell horror stories about this. But yeah, that's one I remember in Denver, somebody was like, you're not really into talk until you completely stock out. And I was like, okay, I would love to have that problem. And a little bit, I know, you know, it was funny. So when we going back to last year, I think we went from roughly 10,000 in November, ballpark in 50,000, I'm sorry, 10,000, that's over about 50,000 in November. And December was pacing to over 200,000, but that was our first major promise on a stock, right? And so that's what we first started the lesson, but it was the one that we would continue learning throughout all of this year. But no, man, ultimately, I think that we had solid suppliers, but we had to level up. We had to grow up a lot this year from a supply chain perspective. And that started with completely rebuilding our internal team, like building a team for the next three years, not the last three years was a part of it. And I think, you know, we did a really good job with that. But also building out our supplier partnerships, man. In some cases, it was sticking with the same guys and just kind of, you know, downloading our products across different suppliers. But we've done a really good job of adding new suppliers that will allow us to three years again without any production shortages, even looking at lead times and, you know, negotiating made a contrast, keeping stocking grittiest on hand so that we have faster lead times payment terms, right? You would think when you, you know, three or four years in a year that cash is your problem, it really wasn't, right? I think we did a really good job from a cash perspective. Yeah, just supplier capacity. I would say it was one of the bigger challenges that we had. And we're probably two weeks away from that being completely solved. We're about 98% of the way there. But yeah, that was one of the bigger things, man, that we learned. And I think for us, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to plan, right? I mean, when it, when it takes off as fast as it does, it's hard to plan. But, you know, at different spots during the year, you know, we're talking to our tip reps or Amazon reps and they're asking us about supply chain stuff. And so, yeah, that was, that was a no doubt the biggest thing that we, we really had to fix and figure out and fix up. And I thought my team did a great job, dude, like literally driving throughout the Midwest, doing supplier visits and, you know, all the ground, boots on the ground. So the team did an awesome job, you know, and it really kind of fits in that problem. Not just for today, but kind of what we're trying to do for the next three years. That's amazing. Not going wood that we're like, but, oh, man, it's so stressful when you're out of stock. And you just like, yeah, it's a different. Yeah. Dude, it's unique because I remember, you know, whether it was stock outs or, you know, the slow summer season, you know, back in the day, we get nervous for smaller. You know, I'm like, are we going to make it, you know, my head is there. And at this point, you know, we're fortunate enough where we have enough dilution wear. It hurts, but it's like, okay, like, you know, life goes on. It's a business development, but we obviously have to go in and fix this. And again, you know, when you move that fast, things break, right? It comes with it. And so for me, it wasn't about, you know, how much money we were losing. It was like, how fast can we fix it? And when we fix it, I want to make sure that we're not having to fix it again next year, right? Because, you know, we're going to keep, you know, pouring gas on this thing. So I do feel like we've done a good job, you know, time will tell, time will tell. But I felt like we talked to some really big suppliers that are making products for, you know, some of the brands we all know. So I'm excited about that part of it. So now looking back, you know, besides obviously the kind of supply chain. So I'm like, what do you feel like has been, maybe one of your like biggest learning lessons from scaling on TikTok? I would say that's certainly one. I would say another one that we, you know, figured out a lot of the way it was compliance. And it could quite a sense of really a bit of bucket, but specifically copycats, right? And then we had to do a lot of things that we learned with TikTok as, you know, a lot of the knockoff brands that came in, you know, from a legal perspective. We had to step that, we had to step that game up too, right? So it's not all about offense, right? Sometimes we all talk about the sexy marketing stuff, right? But there is a defense, deep as a part of this game that we had to figure out as well. You know, and I think again, we had to learn on the fly, right? Who are the best service providers, the partners to work with and we've done some things there. But that has come with growth, you know what I mean? So again, at some part of me looks at the last year and I wonder, you know, could we have, you know, been more proactive in some cases? Maybe, right? But at the same time, I think that's, I mean, when you for X, I don't know another company that can force in a year and just have no problem. You know what I mean? That ain't no problem. So I think for me, the focus was more on let's fix it quickly and fix it, you know, so that it doesn't happen again. But as we're looking over the next three years, you know, I'm asking myself, okay, when we, you know, whatever the number is, we do next year or the year after, you know, one of the problems that are going to come up at the end that we should be thinking about now, you know what I mean? So I think me and my CEO are doing a really good job of thinking about the future and really building the foundation not just to get through 12 months, but to get through three years and being in target and Whole Foods and international and all these different things that we're planning to do. I think that's what we're trying to build right now. Yeah, there's so much like, you're the business of running a business and like, yeah, just hard thing in the long term and putting yourself in a position like to really be able to scale to like the target. Yeah. No, man, it's been a great year, but it's been a painful year, right? And in some respects. And so as we're solving those problems, I'm trying to solve for three to five years, not just for, not just for next year. So, and that's, you know, we're kind of leaning into retail too, right? That's something that is on our radar. And so I'm thinking the same thing, right? So if retail blows up like tip top, then what's going to break, you know, right, you know, if it's just a perspective, what do we have to be ready for? So those are some of the things that we're already trying to think about in the solve ahead of time. That's awesome. Yeah, I remember one of my CEO coaches was, it was like, it was like a revelation. This is probably like back to like 2016 or something. He's like, as you go up in terms of seniority within an organization, your time horizon, like changes, right? It's like, if you're like an entry level employer, thinking about day to day and your weekly targets or whatever. Sure. And then as you like climb up, it's like the CEO's job is to be really thinking like two or three years out and then something that's so hard to like kind of get used to. You know, except like obviously when any planning comes around, then it's like easier, but it is on a day to day. It's like, how do you think about like these years out and like the problems that you can't even anticipate, you know, and I would tell you a couple of thoughts to that. So, you know, we run EOS and you know, big believer in it. But it speaks a lot about, you know, thinking several years out. difficult for me. I feel like I do that. But I'm so impatient. So I spend so much time thinking about what we look like in three years. And then I have to come back to today and I'm like, like, let's go. Like, why, you know, why is it too long? And so I probably drop my team crazy about how impatient I am. But yeah, dude, I really do. I kind of see, you know, where we are, where we can be. And I tell my team, I don't think it'll take three years, right? Like if we're really on our game and everybody's aligned, I really don't think it'll take three years. But I think mentorship is another part of the game too. That we're probably taking a little bit more seriously. You know, so as we're looking into some of the different channels, the ways we want to grow, you know, we're not taking the figure it out approach. We're going to speak in the folks and brands that are already kind of in those spaces and asking the questions that we don't know to ask, right? So I'm talking, I've talked with some really good brands that are way, way further beyond the we are. Just a kind of going to feel for what's coming up and what we should prepare for. So yeah, let's spot on yet. Let's actually really help fall. Yeah, we do the same thing where we're constantly hiring consultants and coaches and mentors. It's just such an easier way to like fast track success. And honestly, make less mistakes, honestly, which is so stressful. Yeah, no, dude, exactly, man. I mean, it's funny, you know, retail is the big one, right? Because I've heard a lot of horror stories about how that can go wrong. And we've talked to some really smart folks on retail. But as we lean into that channel, we're absolutely going to, you know, partner with the right partner to kind of help us navigate the waters and not lose our shirt, you know, because we, you know, negotiate the deal the right way or, you know, anticipate something. But, you know, we, I think as we love it all, even with our internal hires, we know higher people that can take us where we want to go, right? I don't know if we were necessarily thinking that way, you know, two years ago, but now when we hire men, it's really, hey, we're trying to grow this thing to a non-figure business. And you can only step in the door in a leadership position. If you can help us map that out and help us execute to that, right? And so I think, you know, going back to your time in Horizon night, that's how I think when I talk to people now, and we've had some really good hires coming in. We have someone on team that I feel really good about in terms of asking big questions and thinking about big topics and things that even made me, you know, sometimes I'm like, whoa, okay, we're going there. So it's such a fun journey, man. There's so many years chaos along the way, man. It always is, but I love waking up being on the journey that I get to be on, and I just feel blessed that I get to be in a position to do it. - Yeah. - Can agree more. - And so, you know, I was kind of wrapping this up. Like I'm curious how you think about like the future of TikTok Shop and how that plays out for brands like us, or brand owners, and for years as well. - Yeah, I mean, I would tell you this. I have four daughters, and you know, they don't shop on Amazon, man. They say Amazon is for boomers. - Okay, so I get made fun of my oldest two all the time, bro. But apparently, the associate Amazon with boomers is the thing. And, you know, they're not doing that thing. They're on YouTube. My youngest, they're on YouTube looking at products to buy, right? My oldest two, they're on, you know, TikTok or Snapchat or whatever. And it's all like social commerce. So I really do think social commerce is increasingly just going to become where people shop. So I think Amazon's market share, well, I think Amazon will always be around. But I do think their market share will decrease. Not just because of social commerce, but even agent commerce with, you know, chat GBT and publicity, and do a lot of my searches now, you know, where I used to go to Amazon, I now go to chat GBT first, right? - Right. - So I think you're going to have people, you know, checking out in more places. And I want us to be out in front, right? You know, whether they want to check out when Amazon TikTok or a website, chat GBT, right, wherever they want to check out, I want us to be there. And for us to have our presence. But, yeah, I mean, I think as we kind of think about growth in the model, like it starts with TikTok, right? You know, I've told people, when you're growing TikTok, you're growing your entire business, right? I mean, you might not see the net profit flow through on the TikTok channel or on half, shut up. But it grows your entire business, right? Like when you're working on Amazon, you're working on Amazon. You're growing Amazon, right? But TikTok grows your entire business, then. I'm bullish on it, man. I think there are different things like, you know, there's promise of hesitation in the year. You know, it's going to be here. Is it not going to be here? And I think we've certainly gotten over that. I think that there are, you know, just when you look at the demographics, I think our Amazon customers are a little older than our TikTok customer. And I think increasingly to talk more game or trust from an audience. International, right? I mean, a lot of Amazon sellers are selling all over the place. And, you know, we're leading into that, you know, from a Mexico UK perspective. And so I think for the brains that lean into it that are all in that move fast, it will fundamentally just grow their business like nothing else. Is there a single bet that you're kind of thinking about placing that's really big for the next 12 months at a curiosity? Within Titoch, are you saying overall? Overall. Yeah. So macro level retail, right? I would say for us to talk us put us into position where we have retailers reaching out to us, right? We're in, you know, some hopeful stores, we do some business there. But largely we've been focused on this digital, right? And now, you know, we have retailers literally in our inbox reaching out to us to have conversations. I have a couple lined up. I see always had a few. And so that all sit side, you know what I mean? And certainly we're going to be judicious in how we go about it. But retailers, I would say probably are the biggest swing that we're going to take over the next couple years. The second one I would say is international. We actually watch in Titoch UK next week. So I have a very big believer in the platform, you know, between UK and Mexico. I think that that's going to be a really good addition to the business. You know, from a Spanish speaking perspective, I've heard a lot of people say their Spanish speaking content does really well. And so I think Titoch, Mexico will be, you know, really good for a lot of people. Hopefully we get to move first. But I would say those are, you know, at a macro level, those are two of the things that we're chasing. Inch tutorial, you think you're about using launching on Mexico and then repurposing the content from like a Mexican creator in the US market. Yeah. So launching on top shop Mexico. Right. So I'm saying. Yeah. No, we're checking out there. Right. Okay. Some of our some of our top creators right now are Spanish speaking. Right. Yeah. We think that's just going to be one more channel for them. You're your question of course in the US, you know, question for us in Mexico. We have it not that one out just yet. We know we're going to do it. We're focused on the UK first. We so we've kind of gotten things on the way there. Obviously, you have to start with the infrastructure part of that. So we're using open the border for that part of it. There are a few other much of the record sets out there. But yeah, we're testing. We're doing software to the UK. We're testing that first. You know, and as we build out that channel, is that pool successful? We're going to take that same play button to top Mexico and hopefully question. Yeah, last few questions. I mean, is there like a book podcast or resource that you feel like it's had an outsized impact on how you think about like running your business? Yeah, I would say as a Christian business owner, man, I would be remiss if I didn't say the Bible. Specifically, Proverbs, but I think we look at a year where you got to make some of the decisions, things are moving so fast, things, you know, the complexity is growing. Having that grounding source, you know, before the chaos of the day, I think has been really instrumental for me. You know, in a more, you know, tactical sense, I would say EOS, right? You know, rocket fuel, what the heck is the US? There are several books there, but as our team has grown, I've seen a greater need for us all to really embrace our operating system, right? Because, you know, as you grow things break, right? And one of the things on this journey that sometimes can kind of go by the wayside is that like management layer, right? As you have to add more management and more leadership, I was in a group recently and they were just saying that typically action, your goals and your action exceeds your team's banal. Right? And I think we've certainly gotten to that point while like everybody else in the team was like, you know, messed out. And so I think EOS for me is an operating system, it's a series of books, but it's an operating system that I think is really helpful for teams that are trying to scale. And whether that's 200 million or two to two million, right? I really do think without EOS, we're probably never where we are. I think it's been that powerful force. That's amazing. Actually, one question that just came up for me and I'm curious to hear your perspective. Do you guys have separate meetings for each of those channels and then like an L10 since you're following EOS? Or how do you guys think about it? I'd curious. So we do the company L10. So we do with me or an integrator and then our leadership team, right? And about to find that's creative in a product. So we do our leadership L10 and then each department does their L10. So marketing does their L10, you know, ops does their L10, right? So we sort of do it there. So we pull them all to all the marketing team. They're all in the same L10 meeting. It's coordinated, right? I mean, if we're launching a product, right? Everybody has something to do on that. Whatever we do, you know, whatever campaign we're working on, man, it is certainly cross-functional. So yeah, they're all in the same goal. That makes sense. That's cool. And so yeah, last question, where can listeners find out more about you and try Joyce Spring? Yeah, I mean, more about me. LinkedIn. I don't know how much more there is to share. But now Joyce Spring, you mean obviously Titttot Shop. Please buy from the Joyce Spring brand, not the knockoffs. I know Titttot Shop. Amazon website, you know, JoyceBringBitermist.com. Someone I heard in a couple other retailers, but really those three, I'll say would be the core. I actually push you to JoyceBringBitermist.com. Let's start there. And then you can get somebody other place to start there. and this has been amazing. Thank you so much for being a part of this. And yeah, sharing your time and knowledge is super helpful. Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you, man. This has been awesome conversation. As you know, you know, we get to talk about TikTok, man. And it goes, we can talk for hours to know I love this stuff. I appreciate the amount of, yeah, of course, man. I'll have to have you on again soon. Thanks again. Let's do it. I'm afraid.