How I went from lawyer to fintech CEO

What has been your life lesson so far? No who you are, not what you want. The most successful version of you is the best version of you. Not the best version of someone else. You pretending to be something you're not is is massive. Whatever you're doing, it needs to be authentic. Don't focus on what you want to do. Focus on who you are. Yeah. Hi, I'm Will Mara, and I'm the CEO of IFF Payment, the Global FinTech company, employing 200 people, and this is my feedback, Libby. What is the secret ingredients that made you get the opportunity? I think I always try to push myself into the forefront of everyone's mind. Can I come to this meeting? Can I do that bit of work? How can I help? What can I do? I want to learn more. The need for that whole idea of getting better. What course is going to do outside of work? Whether that's full degrees, or just the ad hoc things, or just attaching yourself to people. You learn either through books or through people, right? That's it. What do you think is wrong when it comes to money here in the UK? On a personal level, I was always taught not to talk about money. It's just not what you do. You create a relationship with money as a child, and that then resonates like your entire life. You should be able to ask for help. You have to credit cards, keep it on top of those things. If you open and you can talk about these things, not very ahead of the set, then you can solve a lot of problems. It's like the birthday card. They open the birthday card, and the money falls out. They make out they can't see them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What is your top three tips for a young individual to pitch their idea? Good question. I think my final final question is you do they flip? What's your out bed in the morning to flip the do they look, I think? So we're welcome to my do they flip? Thanks for having me. You all do stuff on coffee now? Enough, yeah. I need a fair cup. You want to get your fair cup in the break? Fourth, please. I want to start here because we always start the show here. And we go right back to memory lane. First job, first proper job that paid you a bit of money. If you were looking at young wheel now, what would you be saying to him about that job and that experience? If you could just tap him on the back and say, this is what you should do. I think you are going to learn from this and that you are learning from this. My first job was working as a barista assistant, out in ill-fed, in Essex. So I was really struggling to get people to just qualify as a barista. I thought I really wanted to be standing up in court and advocating for human rights and putting bad guys away and all that sort of stuff. And the other thing I could get into was the barista assistant role in immigration law. Started out pretty easy filling out forms and helping support people with their various applications for right to remain in all that sort of stuff. But the more you got into it, the harder it started to become in terms of the emotional side of it. And I think, you know, with immigration or actually what's really happening in it is, people might be, families might be broken up, people being sent out the country, the bail hearings, all that sort of stuff. And I think I only did it for three months but I found it really tough to take. And sort of learning about myself in that process around what I could tolerate, what I couldn't on a sort of personal level. I think was with that. And I think I sort of knocked it on the head after about three or four months and thought, yeah, it's not for me. And was it because it wasn't for you because it was the role or was it because the emotional side? Well, the role was a pathway to hopefully getting it another one. So sort of going in as an assistant to try and get people in to go on to be a barista. But yeah, I think at that point I saw it to sort of dealing with people's lives. And it became really, it was real. And I definitely learned that I'm one of these people who takes everything home with it. And I find it very hard to leave things, you know, at work. Become very emotionally invested in people I work with. And you just knew at that point it was just going to just tend me down basically, I think. So I got to a point where I just thought, look, this is going to be killer for me. And I need to learn more about myself before I go on and try and do something different. How does one be passionate, engaged, but also have the emotional awareness just to pause? If you say you take things out, you took things out of you, how can you compose yourself when you're so passionate about something or you really want to see a result? How do you compose yourself in the professional workplace? It's hard. I think, you know, you can be passionate about anything, you know, whether it's about people that you work with, whether it's the business and its products and you buy into that or whether it's just that one bit of work that you're working on. Be passionate about it all. Composing yourself, I think, is a different beast. Some people are naturally very good, just, you know, might be five, thirty, you know, about that's it. Then leave that in the office and I'll pick it back up tomorrow. And that's fine. That's great. I think that's a skill. But I think if you're able to try and separate the two in a way that doesn't sap your energy, I think you can maybe have to take it away in a really positive influence. A lot of people obviously like to work late and pursue it and just sort of be relentless in their pursuit of their passions. But I think having that, trying to create those separations is key, whether or not you, whether or not there's a tool you can lean on or I think it's impossible. I think you've got to work out for yourself. And, you know, I think having children for me has helped. You should know choice, but yeah, because you've got a hundred distractions at home. But prior to that, it has been tricky, you know, off my wife will, you know, see me sort of soft thinking and more and then she's like, oh, come on back in the room, please. And you're like, okay, well, it's work and, you know, I'm on it. But it's hard. It is hard. And, you know, I don't think there's a specific tool to use, but I think you've got to work out who you are and what's what's right for you. And then I think you can then start to think about the things in your life that you can, that you can potentially engage with outside of work so that you can not take everything home. Well, you're sitting here in my London home right now. I've taken the podcast. I'm thinking, I like what you're saying. Basically, find out where you are in the journey. Work out the type of person you are. If you have got the skillset to stop at 5.30 and then pick it up tomorrow, absolutely brilliant world on you. If you have then find the distraction, all that out of work, hobby, motivation and find something that makes you kind of thrive outside of work as well. Yeah. But at times, it's also could be good to do take things out of that. Yeah. Just find that balance, right? I think it's finding the balance. I think it's, yeah. Like I say, it's easier said than done. But I do think that if you're able to talk about it being a distraction, I think, yeah, finding you, the joy in your life could be your job and your career. It should be, it should be part of it for sure. But if it's all of it, no, then maybe you're running a start. You've got to start up going and you know, you'll know as well as anyone. It can encapsulate your life, right? And you think, well, I've got to do this. It doesn't stop. And so eventually you've got to accept the fact that it might be a 24/7 job for you and that it does engulf your personal life. But just how you, how you deal with that on a day-to-day basis with the other things that fulfill your life, you know, like family, your friends, but other passions that you might have, sport or travel, cooking, whatever it is. But I think enough to take you away and give you that break, I think it's really important. And you talked, you talked a little bit about December came and then you're said, okay, I've done it three or four months. It's not for me. Did you quit with that? I think quitting can be good as well. I think if you, if you, if you feel like it's not for you, move forward, did you, did you leave and resign without another job, did you plan it? No, no, no, no, just basically conversation with the baristas working with and just like, like, she was, she was already a bit concerned around sort of like, you know, how much work she had to be able to offer me, how much progression and excitement and stuff, they're worth. So it's quite an easy chat towards the end of it, just say, look, in what sort of mutual agreement, just sort of, part ways. But no, there was no other job set up and, you know, didn't really have that plan at that point. It was, the goal was trying rack up as much experience in the legal profession that I could at the time before the next round of applications opened for a cupillage, which is the year's training course you've got to go on within a chain, but it's before you get your practice into typically. So it was about, right, what contracts can I now get, what rules, things can I go and work or big ones, small ones, don't work at chains and cats. they do mini-pupilages for like a week or two, get a couple of them and just try and build them. How do you get those? Just go through an application process with the chambers. So they're really really, I mean the selection process to get a pupilage is very rigorous and very tough. The number of applicants versus the number of places across London is very, very small. But they're all very in my experience, very open to giving you those, those mini pupilage opportunities and a lot of them try and find weeks where you can come in and just shadow someone who's going into whether or not they're just sort of operating chambers or they're going to court or whatever it is and you can start to see it and take notes and support them. So did that for a while and then I got what I'd call my first proper job when I didn't get pupilage and got a job at a company called Salamack Group which was, those are real sliding doors moment for me. And why was it a sliding doors moment for you? Well, I'm originally from Newcastle and I had got to the final round of pupilage process and the chamber's up in Newcastle and you know there's a posh girl right there. There it is, yeah. I got to the final round and I think it was like me and this one other guy and I was waiting to hear back and I got a phone call from a recruiter and said, look there's this company in Mayfair and you know, do you want to, it's a two-week contract, do you want to take it? And I thought, well, you know, I'm, I'm about to get pupilage. Come on, I'm really going, I might go traveling afterwards and I sort of have this naivety of like, this is the slam dunk and and I sort of just, I thought, oh, I don't know, let me get back to you and I spoke to my dad and he said, look, you know, I've Googled the company. You an idiot. You're going to take this. There's some like really amazing people who work there for David Treesman and Zergs, they're the chamber of the FB. And I was jumping in there called Ed Buggers. Brigadier had very high up in the army. There was really amazing people there. You're in moron if you take this and I'll, okay, you're absolutely right. I've got two and I got there and it was just a handful of incredible people and after a week of being there, I got my pupilage directly there to the first and I just go, okay, that's a good thing I took this and my boss at the time pulled me into an off, pulled me into a room and said, look, really, black. Personally, that you didn't get it because I want to offer you a job. I was like, oh my god, right. Okay, amazing. And that was then, I suppose, the kickstart of my, my real career, which was working within the legal and operations team at Salamack Group, working with everyone from legal and compliance backgrounds to operations and everything else. Interesting fact about me is I qualified as a barrister in 2013 and I'm pretty sure I'm the only barrister running a fintech in the UK. What was the secret ingredients that made you get the opportunities? Probably a culmination of things. I think the business went through various restructures. There were few man from buyouts, various departments and those were sold. There were some investments that had some debt restructuring that had to be done and eventually, like, people went and people went with man from buyouts and people went on to pursue other opportunities. And I think it got to a point where it was the only one. It wasn't quite the only one, more or less. But it was, I think, I think they were, I think I always tried to push myself into the forefront of everyone's mind. And when someone left, I really tried to show the management team at the time that I could do it. Can I do that bit of work and really try and push, look, sometimes the team will say, look, it's confidential. You can't come into this meeting. But really try to just be the person who is, like, oh, can I get involved now? Can I do it? Can I come into it? Yeah, look, I think you kind of get into that will way. If you're part of the meetings enough and you people, you start getting the invites to come along naturally in the meetings, you're not asking anymore. Yeah, if there's a bit of work to be done off the back of it, no one wants to do it. We'll see it. You'll do it. And you get into that rhythm of being the dependable person that can get stuff done. So I definitely, that's definitely the sort of strategy for a while in terms of that career growth and that progression, really trying to just put myself in front of it. Was it you being curious wanting to be, how can I help? What can I do? I think curiosity was definitely, was definitely part of it. But what you mentioned there about sort of improvement and sort of self-betting, then to think was the ultimate drive. I think I sort of got the bug for learning and getting better, maybe a bit too late, then definitely after school, which my parents will definitely tell you it's true. But I, you know, so for me that whole idea of getting better and just continuous improvement was become sort of the real, so it's really come to the forefront of my mind in my career now. So it's been everything from what course is going to do outside of work, whether that's sort of full degrees or just sort of ad hoc things or just touching yourself to people. You learn, you learn either through books or through people, right? That's it. It's one or one or one or the other. You learn from like those experiences. Like I would often come out of meetings, not just to have a man come out of the live effects and a number of times thinking almost is it about the decision that's to be made? I just don't agree with it. I don't think it's the right strategy move or whatever it is. But you've got to eventually take away and say look, the people who are making these decisions have got to experiences, at knowledge. How do you think become a team player and get on board and don't let it grind you? Because you see it time and time again, we ask young people, why does life, my ideas weren't listened to? That's the key. So I think you've got to have the confidence in yourself that you've first of all presented your ideas and your argument correctly, right? And if you've walked away from a conversational that meeting thinking, I didn't quite get my point across or you know, I might've muddled through my words a little bit. Then there's a good chance they might have misunderstood what you're saying and therefore you need to go back and talk to them again. However, it ultimately I think just comes down to trust, right? If you present your argument, the person in the room who's the decision maker, do you trust them? Do you think they're a good leader within the business, whether that's the CFO, the C suite or even your departmental directors or whatever it is? Do you trust that person to make a decision? Do you think that they've got best the businesses interests at heart? And do you trust that that person is trying to get to the destination that we agree on? And if so, there's a number of different things that they are can they are probably considering when deciding on what that route is and you've presented your argument for your direction, but they might have experienced things similar in the past that haven't worked, they've been burnt by certain things, they've, I don't know, they're more familiar with certain technologies or whatever it might be that's driving the other decision. You ultimately then have to say look, yes, they've listened to me, they've taken on everything I've said, but they're still going to go the other other way. It ultimately comes down to do trust that person. And if you don't, you need to sort of move on because that will grind you, grind you down eventually, you know, that is energy sacking to the highest order. Can you get on board with what they want to say and what they want to do, sorry, but yes, if you feel listening to it, and I think you nail it on the head there when it was sounds to me that young people aren't hearing, aren't being heard by their seniors and line managers and everyone else and it's just been sort of dictated to, like sort of unilaterally, this is what we're doing. I think that's where people find it frustrating. And that's where the mismatch comes into place. But every, both parties have good intentions, right? Yeah, I always say it is they're both listening to Taylor Swift, but ones listening on the iPhone ones listening on a cassette. Yeah, kind of thing. It's just how do you bring things together, right? Yeah. And why is your advice free things, free tips for a young individual or someone who just become a manager to pitch their idea? What's the free things that they you would recommend they have in that presentation? Good question. I think that clear road map is fundamental. Really setting out the logic behind why you want to do so. It's not that we do this and then we do this and then we do this. It's the linkage between the beats. We do this because of this. We do this because of that, and therefore this will happen. That's an argument that people can get behind rather than just that and you take people on that journey of your decision making is imperative. So you're done this route just unilaterally telling people this is what they've got to do. You lose the meaning of why something has to happen that way and therefore people don't understand the why. They can't really get behind the what. - Now, I love that. - So start with a road map, but within that road map, don't just say we're going from here, we wanna get from here to here, break it down on, if we do this first step, this is what will happen, this is what will happen if we don't. - Yeah. - And then break that down, but I like that, start the presentation with a road map. Where are you now? We're trying to get, and then in the middle, explain what will happen in that process. - Yeah, and why you then need to achieve that? Why that outcome is important for the business? - And that kinda links into a job interview as well, right? What is the job description? How do you understand the job description that's cut in front of you? And what do you believe your road map is by them hiring you? And obviously you won't know the internal stuff and what the big strategy is, but you'll know by hiring me, this is what I can do in terms of skills and then breaking those skills down. - Yeah, I think it's understanding where that job fits into the organization and understanding why the company is hiring that road. What is the company trying to achieve with this job? Are you, 'cause you're an investment, right? You are, the businesses decided they're right, and we're gonna spend X amount of money to bring this person in, and they're either gonna raise more money than they're spending, or they're gonna save us more money than we're paying them, or it's a regulatory requirement or whatever it is, right? So start to think about, "I need to give the company value in this." This is what the, you know, if you break employment down to it's very core principle, it's what is the company's investment, what's its requirement out? The things around, you know, culture and values and stuff is the bit that sort of says, "How do I fit in with this organization?" Am I like, am I gonna be happy here? Are they gonna work in the way that I wanna work? Are they carry the same values that I do as a person that's gonna make this a really good working relationship? But understanding exactly what the company needs again, matching your skills against that is enormous, and it goes back to that point of I'm really understanding who you are and what's important to you, because in understanding what type of person you are is, and I don't mean, you know, that you're a bubbly outgoing person, I mean, are you a logical decision maker? Are you rational? Do you think logically, do you, or are you more of a, you know, sort of, gut feel guy, who are you, you back to operate it? 10,000 feet, would you really like to get into the wheat? And, you know, how do you like to work, really understanding what the job is? Are you gonna be happy? Are you gonna get the most out of that job? And are you gonna be able to deliver for your company to be seen as a high performer as well? Because there's another thing around just sort of coming in and doing a job and just, you know, yep, I can do it, doing it steady, and there's a lot of value in that. But what do you wanna get out of it? You know, do you wanna be, do you wanna be a sort of rock star who delivers the job really, really well or do you wanna be that superstar who's on that career path of promotion, promotion, promotion? Gotta be able to match those up and understand where you're gonna excel. What I'm hearing is really interesting because, yet again, and this is not just young people, this is everyone, they go into a job in a few and they go, what can you do for me? Yeah, and you're like, okay, and I know it well, and yes, the employer does have a duty to make sure you've got the right values, the right culture, the leadership can inspire you and support you on your next phase. But go back home or go, when you get, if you get an interview, print off the job description, put a bit of paper next to it and start matching up where you fit in and onto that actual job. Because if you can get the job right, then you can then spend the first 20 minutes in the interview, explain where you could excel in this job description and also be very authentic where you don't. Yeah. And then you can spend the rest of the time finding out what they're like as an organization, yet to see if that's an organization you want to be a part of. Massively, I think that's where you can break it down then onto the job spec and stuff, thinking about, have I ever done this before? If so, yeah, have I done it? Well, actually, I do quite poorly and what did I learn out of that? And really go through each of those points to make sure that, you know, A, you can do the job and you'll be good at it because that's another thing. B, is it really interesting for you? And is it going to make you, you know, is it going to excite you waking up every day to go, "Wow, this is an interesting bit of work?" And then, see, ultimately, are you even going to be happy doing this? Because eventually if you go through the job spec, you'll be happy. You know what? There's more negatives on them and, actually, I sort of realise that. I call them cheers and chores. Right, yeah, yeah. Every job, no matter who you are, CEO, or the prime minister, or definitely the prime minister. There's a lot of cheers and chores. And you just have to make sure that the cheers, the chalk, you get paid for the chores, it's your job to create the cheers. Yeah, like you did go into that CFBO, saying, can I join the meeting? Yeah, I'll take the task that no one wants to do because that'll give me 1% more to learn the next time. So just go in there, look at the job description, understand the chores are there because that's what the job requires, but it's your job to fit into the culture, speak to the right people, and make the cheers happen, right? Interesting fact of that IFX, business was founded on a farm in Buckinghamshire and shared an office with Stables, so literally you would come into the office alongside horses to go and see the UDS. So tell me a little bit about IFX payments and how it works, how did you get involved? 'Cause you didn't start as the CEO, did you? No, so it started in 2005, a group of the founders were XFX, sort of brokers and they decided to spin out and start their own thing. So it was traditionally with an IFX foreign exchange brokerage service. So I joined the business in 2018, I joined as General Counselor, business was pivoting into less of a brokerage and more into a fintech, it built its own platform to help businesses move money overseas, you know, quickly, cheaply, securely. And I was brought in to help get the license to do that, create the structure, the governance, the controls and put all of these things in place to make sure that we were compliant with our regulations and making sure we were putting customers at the centre of everything we were doing and we launched the platform in 2020. What we really do now is we help, in the simplest terms, we help businesses move money around the world in a quick, simple and secure fashion. So what that means is we allow them to open a, an account with a school of virtual I/Ban account but it works very similar to a bank account but it's not a bank account, a legal team book. It really clear it's not. But it operates and that's what allows businesses to collect money from overseas into one account. They don't have to have lots of different currency accounts. It's 38 currencies into one account and then we can support you on things like hedging as well. So if you have, you know, dollars to pay in the future, we can secure your rate now. So that if the dollar rate moves, I don't know if you have a, you know, a big sort of political event and the dollar rate worsens, you don't want to be out of pocket, you don't want your 30,000 pound invoiced to suddenly actually cost you 42,000 pounds. Do you want to make sure you lock in that rate now? So we can help you do things like that as well. How does it make money? How do you use make money? How does that work? And how many like businesses do you have kind of using the service? So we have about 3,000 businesses working with us at the moment who use the platform. We build a pricing solution in it that fits the business model of our customers. So we look to sit down with them, understand if there is a genuine need for the platform. We're not trying to ram products down people's throats and oh, you need this. No, it's just because otherwise the group use it. You know, you've got to give them something they'll use and our whole pricing model is built on usage. So we need to put forward a platform they need and we can make money in a number of different ways. But it's about 15 hour price and solution for the customer and making sure that they're at the center of it. So we in our process will, sales process will look to understand how many payments they're making, what their currencies they're using are. And go through that iterative process and this is what a pricing schedule for you would look like. And they're the different ways we can look to utilize that. Nice. I like that a lot. And it seems like you've got a very conservative approach rather than one-shot fits all. Yeah. And that doesn't work, especially when you're dealing with people's money, right? Yeah. I think the reality is is that if you're sending someone else's money, there is a human impact to that transaction. They can't leave a shop with their goods that they want to buy. If the money hasn't gone through, a plane might not leave a runway. A ship might not be able to port. You might have certain events might not take place, haven't made the payments. So you have to be in tune with what is really happening. And so you have to make sure that whatever you're giving them works for them because it genuinely impacts people's lives. And why is it a good industry to get in foul with and build your career? Because I just find it so fascinating. Yeah, look, it's a good question. So I think you can break it down into two components for me is the FX side of the business. And then there's the payment side. So the FX is live market condition. So news comes out, data comes out, exactly the same, money makes a will go around, but everything that happens in the world will start to have impact on currency markets. So being able to work with your customers to look after their best interests is really interesting. And being reactive to everything that gets going, you know, if there is a, you know, the Fed announced a change in the interest rates or there is a war breaks out or there's an oil tanker. So those have genuine impact and that's quite exciting for anyone who likes their day to day being a bit more sort of like one of your toes and responsive things and then try to help your customers. The other side of it is the payments piece, which is, it's fascinating because the payments rails and networks is, is historically quite not K-existant, can be quite clunky, payment methods that are still used today can be, can be slow, can come to some. So, you know, that you've got the whole sort of blockchain world who are trying to completely radicalize that and really change the way that we engage with money. But also you've got real-time payment providers as well, so real-time payment networks such as, you have something called FPS here in the UK, you're a sepper in Europe and you're a Fed now in the US and they're all over the world. But there means of getting money to other people in real-time, so how do you put those pieces together, how do you fit the jigsaw to create a solution where you give people access to all of those different solutions as opposed to, oh, I have to do things the old way, you know, and that's where I think. It probably knows two sort of quite interesting puzzle pieces together to create a really fascinating company to come to every day, you know, and the people on top, the technology, the development, you know, and it comes together as a really, really nice place to work. And it wouldn't work without the people, right? Oh, no way, no way. I mean, the vision's one thing, but, you know, people's understanding of the regulations, people understand how techs develop, how products come to life. It is enormous, and then how, you know, how your team come together to get that to market and do it in a way which fits the values of the company and does take that consultant approach to understand really what our customers needs are and to say that we are a partner, we're not a provider, we're not that, you know, we're not just someone who's, you know, a cost line on your PNL, we're, we are a, we're someone who's here to help you, give you that advantage in the market. So that you don't have to worry about your effects, you don't have to worry about how your money moves, it's complicated. And so we step it into simplifying that for you and, yeah, you're right. When it comes to payments and financial, I have bloody, I'm sitting here in post-assum dream and I don't have a clue and a lot of people shy away talking about money, especially here in the UK, we hide the pace, we, and no one I believe, young people, some do, because they get support, but a lot of young people, even myself at an early age, I didn't have any financial well being, what it meant to save, what it's like, you know, save, what is a bank account? Yeah. What do you think is wrong when it comes to money here in the UK that needs to be fixing? And by the way, we have a little disclaimer on this episode. So anyone who's tuning in, go and take your own money or fice, and look at an expert, this is just an opinion of two individuals or over a cup of coffee. That's it. Yeah, exactly. Get the disclaimer on. I think in a business context, I think people are quite open about talking about money, you know, you'll talk about top line, bottom line, what it costs, but I think on a personal level, it's, it's, people, I think it's a traditional, maybe British culture, you know, I was always taught not to talk about money and all that sort of stuff. You don't, it's just not what you do, but I think when you move into a business world, you've got to transition into that and be able to talk about, you know, I stand up every, every month and talk about how we've performed over the last month, what our revenues being, what our cost base being, you know, what's the flows are that we've done. And really keep people updated with the company's performance and be be open about those. But to go back to your, to your sort of original question was in the banking system at the moment, I think, banks are often seen as, and if a larger financial institution as well, are seen as providers, and we really want to see reposition ourselves as a partner within the company, be, you know, go back to that old corporate banking approach of, you know who your banking partner is, you know who your account manager is, you can pick up the phone at any time, you can say, this is what I need, this is what I need, I don't think, you know, I don't think we have a financial services sector where people should be the best at everything, you know, I don't, I think it sort of doesn't pay now to be a generalist, I think you need to be a specialist, but rather than be a competitor, you know, with lots of others as a generalist to be a specialist, but a collaborator within the space. Well, that's my career at the window, but the idea being is then that will be your effects and payments specialists, but we will fit in with the wider ecosystem of the best, you know, counting software providers and we'll support you with the best, and maybe you need to go and raise, get capital laws, and you know, maybe you want to raise an equity. You know, right, that's not our ban, but we can help facilitate that and help you, because a lot of small businesses don't have access to it, you know, what, you know, what am I meant to do, do I just Google some names and pick up the phone and, you know, who do you go to? Who do you go to? Yeah, it's, and I think that's one of the things, and that's why I want to talk to you about it, because I say it time and time again, in the UK, money's a day, well, I always see that when someone says, tell, when someone says to me, and I sit with a big bank and see, yeah, and they go, tell me what you think of you, and what does you think of you for money? And I always just say, it's like the birth they card, they open the birthday card and the money falls out, they make it, they can't see them. Absolutely. And they read it and they go, yeah, but deep down, they're looking at me, tenders, they go, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't make me pop me like. Yeah, you are. But it's like, ushosh. And what you just said is, I think it's fantastic, don't be a generalist, be a specialist. There needs to be some transparency around what money means and how people are performing. And also, there needs to be an ecosystem where people can access what they need to access. Whether you're a business owner, whether you're an entrepreneur, or whether you're a young woman, just joining a job, wanting to, what does it mean to have a pension? Yeah, well, exactly. And I think if you're able to, yeah, if you as a provider are able to say, look, I'm not here to sit, don't work with them because we're trying to keep it all to ourselves. It should be, look, this is what we really go that, and this is where we'll help you. And we'll work with all the other, you know, the great pension providers, the great payroll providers, the great accountancy software. We'll integrate with all of them, we'll be part of your ecosystem. And so it's not a one-stop shop now, it's like, you know, you don't, oh, well, I need to know the draft, then, oh, I'll have to wrap it up with my effects. And I'll, by the way, I need to get rid of it. So I'm just going to wrap it up all into one provider, I think creating that ecosystem of speciality is really important. And I totally agree. And I, in my time, I've seen this and really good, bit like yourself, really good smart on its people that want to help. Like, you've come and done this today, you could have been sitting on the football manager. (Laughter) Well, you weren't the bright guy. But like, the industry has got smart people and it's about how changing the narrative, because I always always growing up when you, when you grow up in a council state, no money. And I always was always told, and there was a little joke going around Essex that changed the B for a W, when we talk about banker. But that's like actually money makes the world go around. And there is people in the industry that are actually trying to do good, right? Oh, yeah, massively. I mean, you see, like, parties would be campaign at the moment, you see on the TV around sort of how you create a relationship with money as a child. And that then resonates throughout your entire life. And I think that's really true. You know, you're upbringing, you're parents awareness of money, how they feel about it. And, you know, look, there's some really good things that can be passed down to you from parents, but I think you should be able to ask the help. You shouldn't feel like you can't just put your hand up and say, look, don't understand my tax, that, you know, what is, well, my pace of sorry, I'm the tax code. How do I, what does this mean to me? Is this right? And what do I need to do with this? You shouldn't feel like you can't ask those questions. And I think if you're able to, you know, any business is able to support whether they're young people or people who have been around for a while, you know, I think, you know, you might have the benefit of that I'm new in the working world. You don't feel worried about asking questions, but maybe if you've, you know, in your 30s, 40s, 50s, what are you going to have along you've been working. I might have been, oh God, they probably think I should know this by now. I think people really think like that, you know, just a little bit confused about what this means. And budgeting people often have a problem with that, debt, credit cards, keep it on top of those things. If you're open and you can talk about these things, not very head in the sand, then you can solve a lot of problems. Interesting fact about the industry is that over the last year, 140,000 bank accounts have been shut for SMEs as a result of ring fencing, which is where IFX can help. - The financial services industry, it's financial services you'd call it, right? - Yeah. - Hey, what is your money power? We call it money powers, and we believe everyone should have money powers yet again, there is a disclaimer on this. - Thank you. - What is your money tip to people? - Money tip, I think investing in yourself is the best thing you can do with your money. Look, you're getting to the needs, you need to address your needs first, you know, how to see food, all that sort of stuff. But start to think about how you, how you invest in you, and that can take a number of different shapes and forms, and that can be investing in education and putting yourself through courses and getting yourself better to help progress your career, or it can be just hard-could investment of putting this aside for building up an investment portfolio to invest in a fund or a property or something that's going to start generating new income. The best thing you can do is to create financial freedom for yourself in later life is to have passive income coming through. So I think anything you can do to help drive that and get quite strict with yourself in terms of, look, this is how much I book coming through. This is the proportion that I'm going to put aside for that, and actually that might mean, one less takeaway a month, it might mean, one less streaming app, or whatever it might be, and even if it's just small, to be investing in yourself, and not just all the ones from the, oh right, okay, well, okay, we're going to go out for dinner tonight, oh, we're going to get takeaway, oh, we're going to get this football match, yeah, by the next football manager, but it's really free. (laughing) - Whatever it is, we're going to get time for two more questions. So my final question, what's your life, what has been your life lessons so far in your professional career, whether in a form of a sound bite, whether it's someone who along the way has said something that you didn't understand, but now you do, or something that you've just read in a book or something, that's really sticks with you. On a dark day, you pull this out and you go, oh, I wouldn't say there's like a sound bite for my, for the darkest day, but what I would say is, is no who you are, not what you want, and that is the best thing you can, you can do to start your career, to reset your career, or just remember at any point, because the most successful version of you is the best version of you, not the best version of someone else. And so you pretending to be something you're not is, is massive, you know, whatever you're doing, it needs to be authentic. People can't see through that you're not being someone you're not, and how can you be successful in a way that is not just being a chameleon and just sort of trying to do everything and anything, because I'll never make you happy. So where do you fit in? What sort of person are you? Then you can start to think about the what you want and what your passions are and what your interests are, because you'll all start to filter in and lead you down a path, which you should ultimately find happiness after, which is the main thing. Absolutely. I think you just sum that really nicely. Don't fail, don't fail, because on what you want to do, if it's a who you are. Yeah. And that can take time, right? Yeah. They say life begins at faulty, and that's when people normally figure out what they care about and stuff. Yeah, it can be all sorts. Usually, and I think if you're able to work that out, it doesn't stop you then from being something that you might want to be. But it just gives you a bit of a guiding light as to what type of version of that role you want to be, so that you join a company that fits that, and that you have people around you who support that, and that's what they want from that role. And then everyone's happy, right? You know, people aren't trying to squit, and it square pegs into round holes. It's just trying to make sure that we are bringing the right people together who are, you know, excelling in the right way. And my final final question is you do, they flip. What do you show at a bed in the morning to flip the do-they? Both personally, but for the future of your organisation and industry. Yeah, well, personally, it's probably, yeah. I have two kids and they're unhealthy bluey obsession, so. That's definitely my 530 wake-up call. But I think the uncertainty of every day, I think, is something that excites me on a personal level. So the countless opportunities that every day has to offer, I think, is what gets me up and going out to spend time with people and understanding how we can help progress people's careers and support them and help ultimately go drive the business forward. I think in terms of the business, I think, you know, how we grow it in a way that cultivates the culture we've got is something that I'm really passionate about. I've got a very clear vision for where the business needs to go, the new products that we're going to be delivering and we're going to be releasing over the course of this year and in the next, the new markets we're going to be entering and how we can start supporting smaller businesses and larger, so complex corporates as well. How we can start supporting them, but I think what really sort of gets me excited is the people in the business and thinking about how we can support their career journeys and, you know, sort of supporting their happiness with our effects. And I think, you know, we, as far as business, I think we're doing that quite well at the moment. We've got, you know, people stay with the business for a really, really long time, relative to the industry. But as you grow, you start to establish new offices and take the business forward, how do you keep that? How do you keep that sort of ticking along and making sure that you sort of compound the effects of that and you don't lose sight of your culture and your value. So that's something that really excites me on the daily basis. - You know what, I've really enjoyed this. So I just want to say thank you for spending your time giving your wisdom. I've seen a lot of your career is being curious, asking how you can get involved, a few spinning the right place of the market. - Yeah, but I'm not that. Everything's happening around you, but you've stayed steady and you've stayed confirmed, firm into what you're doing. But it looks like you also bring people with you and that's quite rare. You want to make sure, yes, you need to make a business decision. Yes, things have to go this way in certain things that you do. But it feels like you're building an environment of kindness, of clarity and I love that. So I just want to say thank you for sharing your advice. Thank you for coming. We could speak all day. And you know what, if we were playing in football manager, I would beat you. - Yeah, you probably would. - You probably would. - I'd quickly cheat, but. - Yeah. (laughing) - But I just want to say thank you. Thanks for getting me. - Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. Appreciate it. (soft music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)