How High Achievers Get Stuck and What Actually Creates Influence

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From retention and engagement to AI, flexible work, culture, and leadership effectiveness, with ideas you can use right now to lead with confidence into the future of work. Welcome to 4-site, a podcast about making work better. I'm one of your co-host Naomi Tettleman and I'm joined today by two special guests, Carolyn Lawrence and Jennifer Leidlaw. Carolyn may be familiar to our listeners. She was a guest on our show in 2024 when she dished about DEI questions she wished people would ask. I think we will touch on some of those themes again today, even though the conversation has evolved quite a bit since 2024. Carolyn partners with organizations to redesign systems so they stop reinforcing outdated patterns. Her work ensures that all talent can thrive without needing to overperform for legitimacy. I'm excited to welcome Carolyn back to the show, along with our next guest, Jennifer Leidlaw, who is a coach focusing on inter-transformation required of today's leaders in today's modern context. She coaches executives to achieve breakthrough results, esteenably, with kick-ass teams and thriving culture. Welcome to the show, Jennifer, and welcome back, Carolyn. Thanks for having us, Naomi. Yeah, thank you. So great to be here. Great. So let's check in before we get started. If you could be anywhere right now, besides here, obviously, where would you be? And let's start with you, Jennifer. Oh, you know, I really was thinking this, this is where I would most prefer to be because I will, there's nothing more that I love talking about than the revolution. Great. Well, that's not a, that's not just like blowing smoke at me. That's, that's, that's a true authentic answer. Carolyn, you can't have the same answer. Okay, well, I did have the same answer, but I'll change that. But I'll, I'll say that I, we were just talking about getting back from holidays and I was in the sun and the surf and it was remarkable and it is always so hard to come back. But I am truly genuinely excited to be right here right now because 2026 is looking to be a very great year for my impact on the workforce and for my family. And so in this moment, let's say, I'm really excited to be right here. Great. So bring it on 2026. Bring it on and bring it on. I'm really excited for this conversation. So let's dive right in and I'd love to start with the two of you and your journey to where you are today. Well, Jennifer and I've known each other professionally for a really long time. Our lives have intersected through my work at Women of Influence and at the Lloyd, she was one of my clients. We did an incredible research report together when she was at CIBC. But more recently, I wrote an email to my network because something really stumped me. And it was a conversation that I needed to sort of ask people about. And I was having lunch with a woman in Capital Market, so at a large bank. And she was asking about all the things I do, which as you sort of summarized, I go into organizations and help remove the invisible barriers to performance. And I diagnose and I assess and I redesign leadership and people and systems to work better more fairly. And she sort of sat back at the end of like a very long lunch and said, this is incredible what you do and how you do it. But what are women like me supposed to do in the meantime? And it really stopped me in my tracks because I thought she's exactly right. She shouldn't have to wait. The work is too important. And I'm one person. If I get to every organization in time for her career, most likely. And so I put this question out and Jennifer responded. So I'll ask Jennifer to sort of lean in because our brains had a party over coffee about how we were going to address this question from two sides of the same coin, essentially. Yeah. And so just, you know, quickly, I've worked with CEOs of my whole career, really, and in a variety of capacities. And one of the things that I am doing now is really supporting them to win the inner game. And I think that's when I heard the conversation that Carolyn had was screaming at me that this is the revolution. That there is an inside out shift that we can make where more clarity of mind and an alignment of identity can unlock intelligence and confidence and creativity and leaders that they already have access to, but may may seem dormant. And it allows them to thrive really now without fixing the conditions around them. So when you look at the ability to change the way someone is experiencing the role they're in right now, the company, the industry, from the perspective of thriving without changing the conditions. And you pair that with someone like Carolyn, who can so beautifully change the systems so that as the leaders change and how they show up the organizations and systems that they lead within also evolve in ways that make these new ways of leading more sustainable at scale, which is why we started to really call it the revolution. That makes a ton of sense. So there's equal parts responsibility on the individual and on the systems to change. Otherwise, you know, it's a bunch of people banging their heads against a wall. And we'll talk a little bit about why that's not the right strategy. Or it doesn't feel good either. No, it doesn't feel good at all. And especially in our modern context, things are changing so, so quickly that if we rely on like changing leadership models every time something changes in the world, we're going to be just constantly changing leadership models. And especially, you know, a lot of our listeners are HR listeners, you know, that this can be exhausting and it can be a fruitless exercise. So, so I love the approach of bringing both of those sides together. And Jennifer, we're going to talk a little bit about something many of our listeners are living right now. The high achieving woman being tracked in a workhorse strategy. So let's talk a little bit about that in unpack it. Can you paint a picture of what that looks like in real organizations? And why being the ultimate doer actually keeps women from real power and influence? Yeah, you know, it's so critical to see this because at high level, a lot of the challenges that we're seeing, especially for high achieving women are not about capability or ambition. I mean, we know that, right? I think of it more as outdated success strategies. And, you know, when you look at when we were in school, it was as early as that that we were conditioned to succeed by working harder than everybody else, by carrying the load, by proving value through execution, by proving value through that reliability. And that strategy works so well early in our career, we get rewarded. But as the rules become more senior, the return really begins to diminish. And yet we have adopted a particular state of mind, a particular identity around the doing. And so when we need to think more strategically, although we're very capable of doing that, we're still being rewarded for over functioning. And so when that happens, and we start to see those diminished returns, we look in and we just push harder. We see it as up to us. So it becomes, I know this is very familiar for me in my career. It was like one more weekend, one more late night. And then the overwork becomes overwhelmed, it becomes frustration and eventually burnout. And so when you think of this and you think as well that there's this, I kind of, think of it as a multiplier or an accelerant that we're also conditioned not to ask for help. And so we're in the midst of all of this. We know it doesn't feel good. We know it's difficult. We know we're capable. And yet the harder we work, it seems the harder it is. And we're not conditioned to reach out and ask for help and get support. And really then we end up sacrificing more and really end up being exhausted and questioning, you know, is it the role, is it the industry, is it the company, or is it me? And maybe I'm really not cut out for that this. And really the only thing that's happening is that we're essentially shaking the snow globe of what I call the mind and living in so much pressure to perform and to be polished and to do things the right way and to carry what we believe needs to be carried. And by doing that, we end up really suffering in the midst of all of it and deciding, very often that it's just, it's not something we can sustain and be at all successful in, which is where the conversation that Carolyn had with a senior executive woman was like, well, what am I supposed to do? Because it just feels like it's a, it's a, I can't escape this experience. Yeah. So interesting. And what I'm hearing you say is that it's not a capability or a skills issue. It's not a leadership skills issue. It's really a consciousness issue and a mindset issue, which sounds really, really simple, but it's very difficult to execute that mindset shift. Do you have any kind of tips that have worked with some of your clients to really start to catch those moments and shift? Yeah, I think it is as basic as it sounds, it is about starting to recognize that you have a mind. And this is the point where people are like, what? But the mind is constantly creating our experience by talking at us. And we've lived with it our whole lives. So we identify with it. And we listen to it. And that it really is the workhorse mind. It is not us that needs to change. It's just we need to start to hear and listen to what it's telling us we need to do. We need to try harder, push harder, go faster. And so it really is a matter of working with them to see what's in front of them from a different perspective. And one way to think of it is if you were to get in an elevator and open the elevator in the basement of the most beautiful hotel in the whole world, you're still going to see crap. But when you go up a few levels, you start to see, oh, there's some trees and there's some birds and there's some some beautiful things to look at. And the further up you go, the more you see this expansive opportunity in front of you. And that's really what state of mind work is all about is about not changing the hotel you're in, but looking at it from the perspective that gives you the most possibility. I love that. And it's a prioritization exercise that doesn't happen on a weekly or yearly or monthly basis. It's really a prioritization exercise that we have to kind of instill in ourselves to really focus on what matters most. And I think we do, you know, men and women, I think we dive deep into the weeds kind of focused on the work that we do every day. And we don't lift ourselves up and take a look and say, hey, I should be stopping doing that work because it's really not serving its purpose anymore. So it's like building that muscle. Would you say that that it's building kind of a new muscle? Yeah. And to tune into the messages that are saying, oh, no, you need to try harder. Oh, no, you need to do more. Oh, no, you if you're not getting what you need or you want, you need to do more of the same. And it's like a pattern interrupt where you're like, okay, hit the elevator button. Let's go up a few levels and then look again. And looking from that clearer state of mind is it's very powerful. It's full of possibility. And we have access to it. We just have been so deeply conditioned to listen to, no, no, you need to do more. And if you don't hear, if you don't do more, it's going to be a problem. And to the point where I have so many women who say to me, I don't have time for strategic networking. Right. Yes. Not in my own company, let alone outside of my company. Well, that is a mind that's overwhelmed and pressured that's telling you that. That's a story that's not true. Yeah. And you can see that. Then everything shifts. Yes. You can't see. You can't see me that I'm like nodding vigorously when Jennifer describes it. Yes. When she talks about the workhorse mind, there's so much of me that identifies or has in past identify or been in those moments in that place where I have pushed myself to be stronger, work harder, lean in, do all, bend to what I thought the moment needed, but completely out of my mind. And a number of times I've hit the wall or physically injured myself. I've worked so hard. And Jennifer talks a lot about burnout. So I don't know if we want to go down that complete rabbit hole. But it's real when you are in that place. And it took a big shift for me as well to find out, oh, wait, it's not all about pushing with strength. It can also be about the power within and seeing things from that perspective. And now I can better see when I'm in that place and when I'm not and I can work harder to get myself in the right place where my mind turns on and my creativity and my intelligence work better because I'm not striving and pushing so hard through just the one capability of strength that I have using all of them. So I love when Jennifer gets to talk and I always feel like I'm sure there are so many of us that identify with that place and really want to get out of it. Yeah, I mean, I think the most important thing is to hear the words that it is real. It is absolutely real. I experienced it in so many ways with massive health challenges that I was sure were just getting in my way. And I think the most important thing to know is that in the midst of all of this, the feelings that we have are beautiful signals. Burn out is no fun. And the feelings of overwhelm, the feelings of pressure, those are telling you that you are experiencing a state of your mind that is harming you, that is sabotaging, not serving. And so if people could take one thing out of today, when the experience is hard and heavy and difficult, it is a signal. It is like your gas gauge going on in your car that says, you need more gas or you can't drive any longer. We do not go and put a sticky note on that little gas gauge because it is irritating. We go and get more gas. We are thankful for that alarm system. And that is what our feelings are doing every single minute of every day. When you walk into a meeting and you feel like people are going to attack you and you are scared and you are worried and you are not sure what you are going to say, that part of you is going to show up. So it is alerting you that your mind is swirling, kind of like a snow globe that you are shaking it and you are not thinking clearly. And ultimately, burnout is just a whole bunch of days of doing that. Yeah. And I have heard a lot of people say that burnout is not about kind of volume of work. It is about the connection to your work and the feelings that you are having in the toxicity or not of the environment that you are in and all those things. So we can do so much on our end of what do I do in the meantime question. But Carolyn, let's shift over to you and the systems and how we design systems and what we have to do on the organizational side to actually help structurally change the way things are so that we have great mindset. We are in an organization and we are like, we have an environment where we can thrive. I have been thinking about it a lot lately in the perspective of what do I really mean when I say that because system design can mean a lot of different things. But what I specifically look for are the invisible barriers in an organization that prevent us from doing our best work. Or essentially, if we think execution is harder than it should be. And that could be the organization like the execution of our strategic priorities feel harder than they should be. Or this team isn't hitting their goals. It feels harder than it should be to collaborate or communicate. Or even in one leader and their execution feels harder than it should be. They're not effective even though they're capable. And so what I look at is essentially most organizations I've worked with, they have great strategies, they have great goals, they have great talent. But sometimes there is a barrier to that coming together and feeling good feeling innovative feeling high performing. And so there isn't one like silver bullet necessarily or a ozampic shot for this work. We all want one and it hasn't been designed yet. But what I have found does work is essentially learning what the organization, where their drag points are or where their barriers are because they will be different for every organization, every team, every leader. But I like to look at where are we feeling ineffective? Where are things not landing in the way they should? Where are things feeling like some people get this and some people get that? I have a full diagnostic approach. There's eight elements to it where we look at all things from how connected you are to purpose, to your leadership effectiveness, to how your systems actually achieve the work that they're supposed to do to their governance and measures. And then you look at fun things like your branding, your communications, your programming, how do you bring to life all the things that you've designed to do? Almost always you see two or three big barriers or obstacles or gaps that are slowing an organization or a team from doing their best work. And so that's where I roll my sleeves up. And this is my most fun thing to do is to help a system or process or leader become better. And they're usually through small interventions, but they're really targeted. And that's why they work because you're helping a leader tactically become more inclusive, therefore more effective. And you're helping a system become more transparent, which means that most people can be more successfully achieve the results. If they know like where the hurdles are, I was thinking about this the other day in visible barriers, I call it invisible because if you can't see the barrier in front of you, let's say an example of promotion tracks or performance management where there's often a lot of invisible barriers. If someone's put a hurdle in front of you and you're racing down the track and you can't see that hurdle, you're going to out right into it. Yes. Black groups. And I heard a lot of people, women, but all kinds of people say I hit the wall. Or I hit the ceiling or I didn't see it coming. And that doesn't feel good. And that's not good for the leader or the business. And so what I try to do is think about where are the invisible hurdles or barriers that people are running into and how do we create a system that is transparent. So everyone has the same rules. Everyone knows where the hurdles are. People have the same training in order to clear them and then we see the performance is smooth and then we see who is the best and who gets the promotion at the end because it's been a fair system. So that's what I like to look for. But if this person I was having lunch with said that sometimes takes work. That takes time to design the system and an openness to do that. And with large organizations, the size of a deloy to I've spent a lot of time working with designing systems that can be inexpensive endeavor. So I love for two things. One for organizations to design this way from the start thinking about their processes and growing them. But also and where sort of come back to what Jennifer and I are trying to talk more about is where the people in the positions and seats that they're in today, there are ways to challenge the status quo that are effective. That can change the system without going through all of this work. I still advocate for it. Of course, because that's what I do and what I love to do. But you can change the system from the spot that you're in as well through small actions. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense because in a perfect world, organizations are meritocracies. In a perfect world, we design the systems and then everybody is evaluated on the same playing field. And it's the best person who performs the best and there's an objective measure and that person gets promoted. But the individual also has to take accountability to do things like go for those stretch projects, take those stretch roles that may feel not great in the moment, all those things. As we know, if we're talking from a promotion standpoint, or just as an example, as you get more senior in an organization, there's fewer roles. There's more at play in terms of what those paths are. It's important to look at it both from a systemic point of view, but also an individual development point of view to really make sure that things are equitable. It's both. If I'm putting an athlete hat on, if I know the track is 400 meters and I know that there's a hurdle there and we've all had the same rules and we're governed in the same way, it's still on me to prepare for that race and do it. Do it the way my body needs to be at its best. Yeah, for sure. So interestingly, you both argue that leaders need to stop fighting the systems that aren't designed for them, which sounds counterintuitive based on our conversation until now. But how does resistance actually keep inequity in place? And what does it look like to lead differently from that regard? I'll say that I came into this world fighting the system, like ready to challenge authority at every turn. Yeah. And I realized quickly and thank you for the arena that my childhood provided for that, that banging your fists on the table doesn't actually create change. Yeah. Let's just start there. So I called in inequity from the start when I saw one and advocated for change, but in a way that created resistance on the other side and it didn't create discussion, curiosity, elaboration. And so as I matured through my life and as I got into the workforce, I understood that in order to change the system, the discussion, the team, whatever it is, I needed to come and from a totally different angle. And so I lead change through curiosity and through a lot of compassion for understanding the person or the organization that I'm across the table from and trying to figure out how can we get closer together here? What are the questions that I need to ask in order to influence and for us to understand each other's point of view so we can get to a better place together as opposed to it needs to be this way or that way. And that has worked much better for me creating that change and then you role model it. And so if I had to sort of tactics that I use this curiosity and then role modeling that change at every turn, I can go into many more tactics when we get there, but I think, you know, Jennifer might have a similar thing. And I like that you raised your hand that you also joined this world fighting the system. Yeah, 100%. And I think, I mean, what we resist persists, right? We know that. We know that intellectually, but it's actually true. And I think there is, there's a couple of pieces. One, when Carolyn was speaking about the hurdles and when you're running along and you hit a hurdle and it hurts and it has an impact, that is the distinction between privilege and not. When we know there's not a hurdle for us, we never have to hit that hurdle. There are so many women and people leaders who are their entire state of mind changes the moment they first hit that hurdle. So they've been successful their whole career. They hit the hurdle and then they question everything. They let went from the penthouse all the way down to the basement and then and then they can't perform because they don't believe in themselves anymore. And that's where the meritocracy really dissolves. And so I think that's really important to point out. But also when I'm focused only on the hurdle, when I know there's a hurdle there and I'm focused on it, I'm going to run into it. We know that isn't there a rule like when you're on a bicycle if you try, if you focus on the tree, you'll run into it. That's what happens with us in our careers. And so it really is about deciding to focus on what you can change within you and really focusing on that instead of spending all of your attention because we can we can look in a million different directions and see a lot of encouragement to spend our time and our energy naming, analyzing and proving that obstacles are there. And I think that's what I love about this collaboration is that individual women need to focus on their success. The same way that individual men do. And then we need people to change the system. And then there's that beautiful space in the middle where I can still be focused on my success. And there are ways that I can make an impact. And that's what I love about what Carolyn is introducing is that there are these ways for me to show up without fighting the system. But that can continue to move forward to a more inclusive and their system. Yeah, that's great. So when you combine Jennifer, your inter transformation work and Carolyn, your system redesign, when conscious leaders meet conscious organizations, what does the revolution actually look like? And maybe you could share an example to illustrate that. Yeah, I love this. And it really is about taking leaders, getting them on the elevator and popping them up, you know, up to the top of the hotel. And I'll give you an example of a leader that I worked with in the last, I'd say 12 months. And he came, he senior senior person, a large global financial services organization. And he came with obvious schools to elevate, be seen as strategic, to build, you know, sponsorship, sponsorship across the organization. And so we did state of mind work. And I mean, it's not what he came for, but that's what I do. And it worked. And he not only had the results that he really wanted to get, we continue to work together. And, and he has done incredibly well within his organization. But what surprised him was all of the other things that changed. And so without trying to be more inclusive, he became more inclusive because he listened differently. Carolyn talks a lot about curiosity. Well, curiosity comes from a creative state, not from a reactive one. And when we feel empowered, when we feel confident, we are able to be curious very, very naturally, we're able to listen to understand versus to argue or respond. And he developed really different relationships, not only with the people in his organization, but all of the people in his life because he was thinking about the fact that their state of mind was also really important. So as the engagement really improved, the conflict in the organization dropped significantly. And people are just showing up to him with better ideas and a real sense of empowerment. And so I think what's possible when we show up with a curious, a clear, a powerful state of mind is that our performance improves. And so does our inclusion, our sense of well-being, our sense of generosity. And people just want to be around us because we're more connected to who we are and to all of the people around us. What I love about what you just said is that this is all aspects of leadership that we tend to, especially in an organization, kind of piece apart, right? Well-being belongs over there, inclusion belongs over there, leadership belongs over there. But if we focus on the leadership and the shift in mindset and consciousness, then all the other pieces fall into place, right? So the path to inclusion is not like diversity, check a box, have a quota, and then we have inclusion. It's really getting leaders to understand how they show up, impact all of those things. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that when we come from a place of power, we are wanting to bring everyone to this level with us, right? And so there are some really interesting approaches that Carolyn's introducing in some of these organizations where they're getting information about where people are at. And one of the best ways to do that is to find out how they feel when we talk about psychological safety or belonging, there is an organizational aspect to it, of course. And no one can make me feel safe. No one can make me feel belong, feel like I belong. So the two together, but when I don't feel safe or when I don't feel like I belong, I'm contributing in a very, very different way that isn't going to help you as a manager or as a leader. And so there are some real strategies that kind of blends these together that can help a leader to not only be clear about where they're at from their state, but my perspective, but where is their team? And what is that going to mean for this big problem or opportunity that's in front of them? Yeah. Just filled on what Jennifer is saying because I had a client last year who was in an interesting place, incredibly high performing organization, sort of a thousand headcount. And they were looking to become more high performing. And one of their strategic priorities, you know, you have your three year, for the next three years kind of thing. And one of their strategic priorities was to become more innovative, to be one of the best and to have new ideas for their, their companies, their clients. And yet at the same time buried in their culture and engagement survey, they had some issues around trust and respect. And I could immediately see that this was going to be one of those big, invisible barriers because I understand that just like Jennifer is saying, if an employee doesn't feel safe, if they don't feel trusted, if they don't feel there's respect across the employee base or with leadership, they're going to have a really tough time innovating because who's going to come up with a new idea if they don't feel safe. And what is innovation? It's having new ideas. It's, how are you wanting to do this? And we had this really fascinating discussion on, well, like we should probably work on psychological safety as a, as a go between to help you clear that hurdle, so to speak. And they kind of like, oh, like we don't really want to do psychological safety work. You know, we already have our EDI strategy in place and we, you know, it's already here and doing these things. But that's where, you know, I think certainly given that it's 2026, I've always evolved DEI from its silo within HR. And I think that's even more important this year. And now to evolve that conversation, this is a performance barrier. This is going to prevent our ability to achieve a strategic goal. Your organization cannot innovate to its potential. You're at level, you're in the basement. Regenna for technology. We're not, we're not going to get there. So, all at whatever you will, we need that skill set. It doesn't matter. So I think it's just such an important thing to understand what, what traits enable our best performance and what traits get in the way of it. Yeah, for sure. So let's talk about HR because HR, we do have a lot of listeners who are HR professionals. What can HR do to support leaders through the internships that you talk about Jennifer and Carolyn? What are some of the ways HR can implement and support system changes needed for more equitable and inclusive organization? Yeah. And I think we'll answer this in really complimentary ways because what I would focus on from an HR perspective is, there is a huge opportunity when you start to learn about the impact that state of mind has that will completely change everything you've done when it comes to change in transformation in the organization. And it's so simple that it seems like it can't possibly be true, but we as humans, we do what we feel. And the best way to illustrate that is that you could be on Sunday night thinking, I am fully committed to working out tomorrow morning. And or I am fully committed to not eating cake tomorrow. And you wake up. And so that from that clear and powerful state of mind, you know this is important to you. There's no, there's no competing priority. It's that's what you want. You wake up the next day and you're like, no, I don't really think so. And that's because your state of mind is dropped. And when you realize that all you did overnight was get in the elevator and from up here, you went down to the basement and you're now going to do from the mind that's in the basement. You're not going to do from the mind that's up there because you're not up there. The only thing you have to shift is your state of mind. You don't have to worry about changing the behavior, becoming more committed. And when we start to understand this in organizations, it is going to be a game changer because we can then support all of our talent, all of our teams to discern between when we're in the basement, when we're in the penthouse or where we're in between and focus on that and being there and then acting from there versus fixing a problem, changing a problematic behavior. And so I think it's a huge, huge opportunity to go upstream rather than focusing on the hard stuff that's downstream. So I'll leave it at that. HR, I think about a few things. I think about first knowing where your barriers are and that's through evidence if you have it. I look at the data wherever possible and try to figure out who's not getting through who we're what's slowing down, what's any deltas in experience or results. In lieu of having the data, I listen and if you ask a group of employees to tell you what they don't think is working, they most likely have something to tell you. And what I have found is that there isn't the same answer for every organization on what to work on. HR often has to deal with so many reactionary things day to day. Having been in HR, I can actually, can't actually believe how much this group of people carry day to day. But the challenge is in being proactive and trying to figure out how do I address those barriers and how do I actually look at not just the plan for the year of rolling out the new tech system or introducing a new platform for performance management or a new leadership schema. But have I closed that delta of experience? Have I enabled this performance to be better? Are we looking at the right measures? And sometimes it's not aligned to the plan. But it is more strategic and gets the outcomes that the business actually really value. And so this, I think just a lot to be said for HR looking at the business outcomes and seeing how their actions are contributing to those. Yeah, that aligns really well with a white paper that we published at the beginning of last year. We called our Trends Report Supercharging Human Performance because at the end of the day, that is HR's job. So if we're working on stuff and being reactive to stuff that does not move the dial on that, we need to reevaluate what we're working on so that that really resonates makes a ton of sense. Before we close out with a feel good, we'd love to give you both the opportunity just to let us, our listeners know how to get in touch with you and learn more about the great work that you're doing. I'm going to say on both of our accounts that we're both on LinkedIn all day long. So please DM us. We are real people and respond in real life to DMs because we love engaging with the people that reach out to us. Great. Okay, so we like to wrap each episode with a feel good. So let's talk about what we're feeling good about today. I just feel I'm just start, and where I started, I feel really great that we're naming a leadership revolution and one where it's clarity and presence and not pressure and overwork that's driving real impact. So cheers to 2026. Cheers to 2026. I'm feeling it. I'm just going to note that it's been gray since I've been in 2026 in Toronto and the sun just came out and there's blue skies. So yeah, there is. I could see it through the gray of my lines. Yes. I'm feeling good about sunshine. It's the little things for sure. And then for sure. It gets very gray. Okay, well, this has been a delightful conversation. Thank you very much for being guests on the podcast, Carolyn, you for the second time. Really looking forward to following the great work that you're doing and everyone, all of our listeners should as well. And just until next time, everyone just take care. Thanks for listening to ForSight. If you enjoyed the episode, we would love to hear from you. Leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Your ratings and reviews also help more people like you find our show so that we can reach more future forward leaders and achieve our mission of making work better. Follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram @FutureForward and sign up for our monthly newsletter ForSight on our website, FutureForward.com. That's F-U-T-U-R-E-F-O-H-R-W-A-R-D.com. We'll share even more about the new world of work. Talk to you next week.