How Grip Size and Pressure Can Reduce Dispersion by 30% w/ Liam Mucklow

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And then when you find a measurement that could be helpful, we're going to talk a little bit about grip pressure today and some interesting research. So we are joined by Liam Mucklow. Liam, welcome to the sweet spot. What's up guys? Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I met you in 2012, right? Yeah, I was going to say it's definitely more than 10. It's got to be close. That was when you were just starting to work your way over to the side of the pond, right? Yeah, that's right. I was working for Lead Better at the time and I think I just was in the transition period and I saw on Facebook your facility in Canada and Toronto. They looked absolutely amazing. So huge warehouse with like was it 20 track man, something like that? Yeah, there was a lot going on there. We had the gym upstairs and physiotherapy and Cairo and 5,000 square feet of indoor short game and all the high rent bills to go along with it in Toronto too. I jokingly said on the Facebook post, how do I work for you? They contacted me and surprise me where he contacted me and he said let's set up an interview. So like two days later I flew over from Wales to Toronto, had an interview, got some Tim Hortons. I actually have Tim Hortons in this right now and that's not an old view that was complete random. I just decided one day, I'll get some Tim Hortons. Maybe it was an unconscious thing after reading your magazine article. So yeah, Tim Hortons. Love Tim's. Liam, why don't you introduce yourself to the audience? Let them know about, I know you've been at this golf thing for a long time. Give us a little brief overview of who you are and what you do. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess I'll go go back to start a professional career. I suppose, term pro when I was 19. I got started on the world long drive tour, found myself playing over in Rio was the first North American guy. You know, Westerner really did go play their full time, was over there for four seasons. You know, and I think a lot of us, those who can do those who can't teach. So found a job at the time. What was the highest tech place back in Canada? It's called the golf institute at Bondhead, moved back there, apprenticed under a guy named Bruce McAerill, who's a PGA of Canada master professional. I wanted to really the start of my teaching career was pretty simple. I was like, I hated a lot farther than most people. And if I could figure out what the heck I do to hit it that far and teach people a little bit of that, I'm probably going to get really busy and can charge a lot of money. Like literally that was my personal career path, which then evolved to like, hey, when I was playing for a living, I got to do a lot of really cool stuff. You know, like go to TPI and get wired up and all this and then the next evolution of the business plan was like, rich guys like cool stuff. So if I open to place where rich guys could come and do cool stuff, they would probably like that. That's where Admin I first met and we had a lot of rich guys in there doing a lot of cool stuff. The Liam Mucklow Center for rich guys who like doing cool stuff and golf too. Was it called that? He's good at branding as well. Yeah, it was way too long for the website name. So I just went with the golf lab. It evolved from then. I was actually as funny. I was the whole the way the whole research thing came about. I was actually accepted to go back and do my master's degree at McMaster University in Canada. It was going to be working under a world-around motor learning expert, Dr. Tim Lee. And then this whole business thing came about and I'm like, I can't do both. So let me do the business thing and maybe I can turn the business into my own little like learning playground if you will. So you did like a reverse Sasha McKenzie. We've had Sasha on recent. He kind of started as an academic and now he's in the business world with his own company a bit. 100%. Sasha and I, we actually shared a volleyball court back in I think it was like 2000 or 2001. He was out at Dahlhousie. Yeah, but yeah, pretty much the opposite. Interesting. Sasha and I actually went to school for the same amount of time. We got very different degrees. I got a Bachelor of Physical Education. He obviously has a PhD in Mechanics. So he might have been a little bit more efficient. I had fun though. Nice. Yeah, what I like about Liam's stuff is he's very data driven. So even even at the golf lab when you were teaching lessons, you were collecting information on players, collecting information on equipment. And more recently you've had, where was the first article? Was it golf.com or golf digest? Because I read the golf digest one. Yeah, the first one that came out was golf.com golf magazine. And then, you know, and then with golf digest, we kind of dove into some new layers. So I think there's one of the interesting things, but especially with the grip pressure is like, we've never had the technology to measure it before. So, you know, it's new information. And you get this initial data set and it's like, part of it is almost like reading the news. Right? It's like, well, this is what happens. How do I coach with it? I don't know, man, we're not there yet. This is what's going on. Like, you know, and I remember my wife proofreads like all my articles and stuff like that. I remember when she finished proofreading the golf magazine article, she went out to the range and she was back in like 12 minutes and was like, your article stupid. I tried doing what the pros do. And I almost threw the club across the range. I couldn't even hit the ball. I was like, yeah, yeah, I figured that would happen. Well, take us through the whole, what was had it start, what you fought well, let's start with had it start and what did you test? I mean, I guess the start, the start of fascination with grip dates back almost 10 years ago, like 2016 we started this grip size research. Our research, I'm air quoting for those that we've just on audio, our research is really trying to find, I want to find answers to incredibly simple questions that golfers or golf coaches could immediately apply. So I'm literally walking through the golf shop at King Valley. That's where golf lab headquarters is located. You know, I'm looking, there's like eight sets of irons on the wall and you know, it doesn't driveers in a bag or whatever. And then I look over behind the counter and I'm like, huh, we got 10 sizes of golf gloves in stock. Every single club has the same size grip. I don't know much, but I know that ain't right. So let's start to muck around with this. And so I called up a couple guys on the golf lab advisory board. We got Jason Geese, Brecht, who's out on Vancouver Island and Cory Cartouf, who's in Winnipeg, Manitoba. And we skamed up this grip size project that we actually executed three locations across Canada to try and get a broader sample set drive the numbers up. And we were using K vest that time we had a GC quad and we took all kinds of hand measurements, you know, hand with hand length, palm stuff, whatever. and you know, just wanted to see kind of like an exploratory study like in changing grip size have a significant effect on subhead speed generation number one and then number two accuracy dispersion of your golf ball. So for number one, the clubhead speed the answer that we got from the data was not really of all the people in the study the most speed that was gained was 1.2 miles an hour. That was going from standard size to a larger grip. I can't remember what the change for that individual was. I would honestly it has to dig it up. Okay, whatever it was, it was negligible. Yes, it was going from whatever they used to a different size grip. So we tested five sizes, undersized, regular mid size jumbo and then the golf pride plus four with a slightly bigger bottom hand. Now the dispersion stuff was super interesting. So when we compare our tour player data sets and we compare our amateur data sets, there's sort of two places in the launch monitor numbers where we see the tour pros really jump out. One would be standard deviation of impact point and the other one would be standard deviation of closure rate. So it's like, you know, when we look at tour pros, yeah, hey, some swing it into out and some swing it out to end. But their club pass very consistent. When we look at amateurs, their club path is super consistent. A lot of times it's consistently going the direction they don't want it to go, but they do it really well. A lot nine out to end over and over again. Yeah, yeah, right. And in their mind, they're still trying to hit a draw. So the face to path that just gets cooked over the course of a day. So we kind of dug into these numbers and we saw I think it was 34% like low 30% talent improvement in consistency of closure rate. You know, and then when we looked at the shot group in the shot grouping got a heck of a lot tighter too. So it's like holy crap. That's pretty crazy. When you say closure rate just for like most people who, including myself, it does, is that more of like a they're controlling the club face better where it's pointing or is that part of it. Well, think of it of like how quickly it's rotating. Yeah. How fast the face to path is changing and that would manifest itself in a tighter standard deviation with face angle, right. If the path is staying the same face would be the other variable, right. That's what I was kind of you got it. Yeah, you have better control of where that club faces pointing at impact. Yep. Do you remember the numbers on that what the standard deviation was changing to. Yeah, so it went from our tour pro population at a standard deviation of 119 degrees per second. Our amateur started around 350 and it dropped by about 100 degrees per second. It became more consistent. So yeah, about a third still not to the tour pro level, but definitely tighter shot dispersion. Now also this is important to know is while shot dispersion got tighter in some golfers. We saw shift in their target line tendency. So just to try and simplify that it's like, okay, well, golf or a you know, they use a regular size grip. They went to a jumbo grip and their shot dispersion reduce greatly their average distance from target was shifted more to the right. But it's like, okay, that's cool. Then, you know, I'll slam the irons two degrees upright. We'll bring that thing back online. We got a more consistent release pattern and away we go. Yeah, I think this is interesting. I might have mentioned this on other episodes, but I recently went from a standard size to a mid size grip to help with my elbow actually. My initial reaction to it was, yeah, this feels a little weird, but maybe I feel like I might be getting more face control with it. I haven't tested enough to prove it, but I think my driver's been pretty damn straight this year. So I don't know. I kind of like going to the larger group for me so far. Your research did it show that it was pretty random. What performed best for an individual or with their patterns within the data. Okay. Crazy shit. Crazy shit. Number one. I'm doing math. Right. And we already went through how it took me seven years to get a fizz that degree. I get this correlation between hand lengths and optimal grip size of like zero point zero zero dot dot dot dot dot. So I'm like, well, screw this one up. So who do I send it to? Sasha. He verified my math actually was good. He's like, yeah, dude, I've never seen this before. So it's literally like so random. Like, I don't know man, just test it. And this is where we look back like God damn it. I wish I measured people's individual grip strength before we did that, but I didn't. So I don't know. And we didn't have the ability to measure pressure application and other weird stuff happens. So like an elderly lady out of Vancouver Island had the shortest hands in the study. And she was using an undersized grip. Well, she performed best with the jumbo grip. And then the guy with the longest hand in the study was using mid size and he performed best with the undersize. Now, like what the hell's going on? And even before we started the grip pressure, I'm just trying to guess in my head. And I'm like, God, you know what? I've done a lot of grip strength testing and a lot of people will put up higher grip strength. When you set the dynamometer to be wider than the actual diameter of a golf grip. So I bet that bigger grip just gave the older lady an opportunity to squeeze it harder and secure the sweet spot. And then that guy with a super long hands, even though it probably optically wasn't a good fit with undersize. I bet it was so frickin small in his hands. He had to squeeze the crap out of it, which stabilize the sweet spot. And don't know just guessing for those are all like some of the ideas that what he last year is a great club that has been on the show and talked about this. He's found like there's rule of thumbs, but anything can be right with grip matchup. So it sounds like there's a right grip for everyone. But if you have small hands or big hands that doesn't necessarily determine what wouldn't you should be using. There's more to it. For me, no, like may point you in a direction to make you open to try stuff, but like I mean, there's so many different grip types from how I place hands on the handle to how both hands are in relation to each other to I think even lead hip internal rotation has a lot to do with release pattern. So, you know, like something that I'm like, I don't know. This is this is too hard to figure out, but you know, it's really easy. It's really easy for me to put different size grips on a couple matching seven iron to go, Hey, hit this. Yeah, yeah, how's that? Okay, it this. Okay, cool. And honestly, like golfers like that. Yeah, ultimately we we won't know the exact variable that's causing it could even be a look, you know, you could look down at something and not like the look of the head and that could change a release or. Maybe don't like the feel of it in your hands and that could change the release, but like you said, if you get testing a bunch of things, at least you can say from now, okay, well, this is the one that performs best for you. Well, yeah, and I think the other thing too, I'm sure will probably dive down this rabbit hole as well, but it's like. As a coach, one of the fastest ways that I can help people get better is to give them more confidence. So if you go through this evidence based testing protocol, if something as simple as grip, I can have a major impact on the person's confidence. The first time they step on the next team, I didn't even have to talk technical. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I haven't done so much of the equipment testing, but I've definitely done testing on things like grip pressure. I've done that with people a lot. I've done things like tempo rhythm. I've done shape shot shape as well. So if a player has the ability to or even if they only have a ability to shape it one way I've done, okay, hit a small draw hit a big draw hit a big hook and then have a look at the dispersions and then, you know, at least maybe part placebo, you know, as long as you test it over and over again and take it out in the golf course, you can get closer to a good answer for people definitely. And like you said, it gives people a confidence, right? If you know that, oh, I tested well for this strategy or this piece of equipment, that feeling of confidence on the first tee is going to help. Well, and I think that's also, you know, when I hear you talk about that, I'm like, oh, yeah, well, of course you're teaching golf as opposed to golf swing, right? And I think for most of the instructors, you know, majority of the population, particularly here in North America, they teach golf swing. Bad shots come from some sort of technical issue. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, isn't just rarely the case. Yeah. You know, our philosophy on that. Yeah, I mean, even with teaching golf swing, you know, say someone comes to me and they're like, well, I'm slicing it and I have a look. I look, I have a look at this wing and they've got a couple lead wrist, weak grip. No, no forearm rotation. We can say, well, look, let's, let's add one of these face closing moves. And then, you know, as an instructor, I don't know exactly what's going to work best for them, but I can still test it, you know, I still see, yeah, see which one has the best control for them. So, you know, you might add some stronger grip. And then all of a sudden, everybody could go, hey, I was this person could go, hey, why are with their results? Then you could add some lead reflection to this wing and it tightens the dispersion up and it could be a complete opposite for a different player as well. Like these technical things can be tested. That's proper use of a launch monitor in my opinion, right? The technology never tells us what to only tell us what happened. So I think the world will be a better place if people apply to scientific method to their golf coaching. Would you say with the grip size thing, do you think that based on what you saw, the industry is like overusing standard size and it doesn't sound like yeah bigger is better for everyone, but there could be a grip out there that tightens your dispersion that you didn't think of maybe an oversized or maybe it was standard or even smaller. Again, this is just this is just my opinion. I would love to relabel of a midsize grip as the new standard and work off of that. So I guess the question I have is, is like, the golf industry missing out on perhaps like tighter dispersion and better fitting by defaulting to standard grips and not exploring the larger ones, not that they're right for everyone, but at least there might be something there that most people would assume isn't. Yeah, I mean, I think grip size is probably the most overlooked aspect of club fitting. You know, if I go into whether I look at a fitting cart or I take a look at what's in, you know, a lot of the commercial big box type fitting locations, you'll be lucky to find one or two shafts that have a different size grip. I think it's, I really think it's just an afterthought. And you know, most people kind of go, "Oh, okay, what's that's loved you wear?" "Okay, this is the start of the grip that you're going to get." We are going to take a quick break and we will be right back. When my wife and I had our first kid over a decade ago, we wanted to make sure our family was protected, so we purchased life insurance policies for both of us. While it's not pleasant to think about, you want to make sure your family is protected and can pay the bills if something happens to you. 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You're going to get a free sample pack. To claim your special offer, visit drinkelement.com/sweetspot. An element is spelled LMNT. Once again, that's drinkelementlmNT.com/sweetspot to get a free special gift with any purchase and bring your hydration to the next level. Yeah, it's like static fitting. Yeah, exactly. So do you think that with this research that you're starting to do that it will lead to I mean, is the answer always going to be like, well, it depends. It's just golf. We don't know. Or hopefully a few years down the road, fitters will have more knowledge being like, oh, this profile of golfer will really be good at a mid-size or jumbo grip. Do you think it could get there? Like having more fine tuning to it? I think that while we weren't able to make any correlation between hand lengths and optimum grip size for dispersion, we still did see some call it common knowledge. So when people went to bigger grips, it's like a Pareto analysis. Like about 80% of the people had the ball start a little bit more right. You know, when you went smaller, most people had to start a little more left. Now it may be erratic, but if you constantly start the ball left of target and you want to start it more right, yeah, I'd be comfortable with just being like, yeah, okay, go try a jumbo, see what happens. Because I think there's a big difference to me between fitting and optimization. Technically, I've never had a golf club that didn't fit in my hands. It's like, well, there's standard length, standard lie, or you could go a half inch over length in a degree flat. You know, and within reason, certain things, he built them to the same swing weight, the same frequency, he could say that those are basically the same. So they'll both fit, but only one of them would be truly optimized. Got it. And the only way to knowing that is through testing, really. For optimization, I believe so. Yes. I know you tested, is that kind of like the big takeaways on grip size? I don't want to leave anything unsaid there because I know we're going to talk about grip pressure as well. Yeah, it's in your best interest to test things and find out what works best for you. You know, there's so many different factors that go into it. Yeah. And then, but the upside seems like a more control over the club face at impact and tighter dispersion, which is a huge upside potential for getting the right grip size. That sounded like the big thing. Massive. Massive. Yeah. I mean, if I look at like incremental improvement versus cost, you could change a full set of clubs on your grip for less than the price of a single lesson with a lot of instructors and get way more way more benefit on your scorecard. Right. So people might be slamming their heads against the wall, trying to correct their slice when maybe it was just a bigger grip for some of you. Yep. Yeah, try it the easy way first. What was the average dispersion improvement? I know you said 30% early. Is that the average? Yeah. So that was on average for that's the entire population. Wow. That's crazy. That's huge. Yeah. That's that that's worth significant strokes. How the course that's less balls in the trees, less misgreens. That's a lot. Yeah. So I mean, we had from a business perspective at the end of this study, it had two impacts on the business. The first one was that grip size optimization became part of our standard offering for every member. So it's like crap, it's this important. Well, we just do it for everybody then. And then I increased the sales budget significantly on grips because we also learn like four to five people that show up on your teaching to have the wrong size grip. Well, that's the hardest thing about all this is like to be a good club fitter. You know, you go to like a top club fitter, the amount of shafts and heads they have. It's a major investment to have all these things available. I mean, for the most part, totally unnecessary. What was the biggest disperaged improvement? Did you capture that? 100%. I just didn't miss. I don't have it down to a percent, but it was their dispersion was cut by more than half. Wow. That's incredible. That's kind of exciting. Like that grip size could do that much. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was surprising and had that big of an impact. Like I had a feeling it would come out with something like, Hey guys, we should pay more attention to it, but certainly never thought it would be that big. It's changed kind of the way we'll do a first look at someone's equipment. You know, I mean, even right down to the beginner, I mean, the rank beginner. So like with our locations, particularly the locations we have in Malaysian, Indonesia, not only do we have people coming in for their first golf session where they've never held a golf club before. They've never even played a sport before. Our coach is over there. I'll be going through our initial student interview and they're like, Hey, okay, so what's your sporting background? Maths. Well, hang on. I know you entered some math contest, but I'm sorry. That doesn't make it a sport. Oh, okay. Piano. No, still not a sport. And so like to get those people in the right length, the right triangle and then the right grip size has a massive positive impact on how quickly they acquire the basic fundamental skill of like getting an airborne and making forward progress. So how do all the things that you've tested, you know, shaft frequencies, lie angles? I suppose it depends on how far off it is. I mean, I could imagine if lie angle was 10 degrees, two upright for someone that's going to be the dominant thing, but in your mind, what are the most important things to look at if you're to give it like a top three of equipment? Length weight, lie grip would be my four. We've seen people have way better performance and have way more fun. If you know, the flex is a little too stiff or a little too soft, but they've got the right length and weight. That helps them out a lot more. And you know, even when you look at, like you talk about some of the club fitting places you go into and I mean, Adam, you've been there. You've seen it. I was, you know, I think I was the first guy in Canada that had 200 driver shafts on his wall. They're all cut to the same damn length with the same size grip on them. And the reality is like, even for most touring professionals, when you get to that level, okay. Yeah, let's test a whole bunch of different 45 and a quarter or 60 gram X flex shafts to find the bend profile that's dialed in for you, but for most amateurs, they're not consistent enough first to notice the difference in any eye profile of a shaft. It's the same weight length. It ain't happening. You better off bang for the buck. He said grip is one of the easiest ways of changing that change in dispersion for sure. All right, let's talk about the grip pressure now because there's been so many quotes over the years. I forget who said grip it like a baby bird and then oh, the same snake. Yeah. And then Palmer was like squeezed the hell out of it. So it's one of those things where like swing tempo people say, oh, swing smooth. And you're like, okay, what does that mean? Right. It's just this, just a statement. and then people. take it different ways and what feels like a tight grip to you might feel like nothing to someone else. So, yeah, start us off here. Let's talk about grip pressure. Where do you start with this? Okay. So our first, very first study we did with grip pressure was we just took two groups, high handicap, low handicaps, and we did it with a three wood off the deck. And the reason what's up hitting three wood off the ground is that was like, well, within the reason, what's the most difficult ball striking skill for an amateur? So that's it. Driver off the decks a little extra. Okay. Yeah. So it's like, is there a difference? And we're like, oh, yeah, there's a difference. They use lower handicap, or they seem to kind of squeeze it a little bit harder. And they use a little more top hand and a little less bottom hand. So maybe we should dig in a little bit more. And so that's where with the help of sensor edge, the company that makes the tech, we got, we got 58 degree wedges instrumented. We got a couple of six irons and we got a couple of drivers. And so, you know, then we got four different subsets of golfers. You know, we got our high handicap or someone who just straight up struggles with contact. Your classic lifelong slicer lifelong hooker of the golf ball. And then, you know, we were able to get a couple of touring pros to be part of the sample set. And so we had him hit our pitch shots, low pitch shots to a 30 yard target. And then a series of the mid irons and then series of drivers and just start to see what are they actually doing differently. And then also thank God this time we actually measured the persons we trail in total hand grip strength. That I think is a critical piece of information. And I think it's a very valuable teaching tool is a thing called a dynamometer, about 20 bucks on the Amazon. And in the span of about 10 seconds, you can understand the grip strength that your student actually brings to the table, you know, which is one of the highest correlations to overall strength as well. So what were like the cliff notes of like the top level findings that you saw? The better players have higher grip strength to begin with. And that's an indication of I've seen this debated before I forget what company put out that like, oh, you got to train grip strength. And someone's like, well, if you have a strong grip strength and that means you're just strong overall. So you shouldn't try to optimize grip strength. You should just try and like be strong. Is there a difference there that people should understand? I mean, to me, it's a little bit of a chicken or egg thing. Yeah. I think a lot of times it probably depends on the person delivering the information. So yeah, like, you know, if you got a training aid product to sell, like, hey, it gets stronger grip. If you're a personal trainer, it's like, hey, let's make you stronger and your grip strength will go up. But, you know, like, I like the way Greg Rose says they're like, well, what's the fastest way to increase your grip strength? We'll just go lift heavy shit. Yeah, I guess that was the question. It's like, there was a specific training aid for grip strength. And then the counter to that was essentially what you just said from Dr. Rose, or just like, no, just get strong and lift weights and you'll be fine. That would be my preference because you'll check off more boxes that way. Brad, it's not just, yeah, yeah. Okay. Ville the whole engine. I'm interested in to see if you gested forearm strength and you're the rest of your body. You've seen that guy does arm wrestling who's got one huge arm. Yeah. Yeah. If you're interested to see, you know, whether getting the whole body stronger or gest getting the forearm stronger, which one has a bigger bang for your buck and return on time invested, things like that. That's going to require 10, 20 years with them research to find that out. I'd imagine. I think the way I like to think about grip strength is it's like it only needs to be high enough to make sure there's no energy leak between your body and the club. Where my preference will be to just get everything stronger is you're going to build the engine and then you're going to build the engine's connection to the club. So better golfers had more grip strength. Yep. And part of that is like, well, guess what other way to increase your grip strength? Go hit 100 balls a day, hit more golf balls. And then here's another one. This is a wild one, trying to hit it harder. It's like, it's funny how many people have had sign up for power golf and were midway through less than one of my, hey, so like what percent effort are you going to? You know, like 80? Like, let's try 100. Oh my God, my club had speed went up. We had no shit. But hey, that's fine. I'm happy for you to pay me for me to just tell you to try harder. What do people need that? Point number one is better players tend to have stronger, higher grip pressures. I'd imagine that's probably subsets of golfers as well. So you'd probably, if you looked at LPGA tour players versus an average male, maybe the average male has higher grip pressure, max grip pressure. But within the LPGA tour players versus average ladies, it would be weaker with average ladies. Would that be correct? I guess you have the data on that. That's what I would expect. I have a very limited LPGA data set. Everything I've seen I would expect the same parallels to run true across genders as they do across skill sets. You know, and of course there's outliers, right? Like in one of the players in our group of hookers kind of skewed the grip strength data a little bit. He's like a former professional hockey player. And he's got massive clubhead speed. He just curves a crap out of it from right to left. So is it the increased grips? I'm just trying to think about this. Would that help? Let's say you're a very strong person. You have great grip strength. That would allow you to feel like you're not gripping the club so tightly. Like your perception of it maybe is like very, I feel very relaxed when I'm swinging a golf club. I don't feel like I'm gripping it too hard, but maybe I'm gripping it harder than a 15 year old kid. And that's where I think things are misleading. Let's go back to where a lot of this started of the baby bird analogy, three out of 10, whatever it is, some Sam's need. Well, if we'd had the opportunity to measure Sam's needs grip strength, my guess is that his three out of 10 was probably more than most amateurs 10 out of 10. Yeah. Yeah. That's I think one of the most or least talked about most important things to understand is for people that are looking to dive down this rabbit hole. I guess that's still relevant in a way, right? Obviously we can look at absolute grip pressure, but what it feels like to that given person might still be an important aspect of things like performance and club head speed, right? For sure. Yeah. And I mean, and feel is such a subjective thing to me. And a lot of instances when we get into the coaching world, feel could be more important than real. Yeah. The question feels like they hold it at two out of 10, but that's when they hit their best shots and god damn it. Do that hit your best. Now I can measure it and I can find that what feels like a two out of 10 to their might actually be like a 4.5. That's where most of the tour pros operated is kind of that 4.5 to 5 out of 10 range. Like if we set their absolute max is 100%, they're just under 50% set up. Did you ask a gathered date around what their subjective feel was as well as a percentage? No, we didn't. So it just leads to more research now. Sorry, sorry. But yeah, you could have like two players that are exactly the same. They've got the same strength when they measured. They're the same. But when you ask them, what does it feel like to you? One person might say it feels like a 3 out of 10 one might say it feels like a 6 out of 10. I'd imagine those players are relatively similar, but yeah, I'd be shocked if we didn't see that. Yeah. So I think that's a success feeling like they're 8 out of 10 where maybe they aren't as strong or as someone who has stronger grip strength could be like, oh, 3 out of 10 is great for me. I feel like I'm barely holding it or vice, you know, it just depends. Yeah, totally. And most of the conversations that have started has started around magnitude, how hard and how much and stuff because that's at first glance and you look through those graphs. That's it really does jump off the page. Now one thing is I start to say play with this information more in a coaching and queuing environment. What I think might actually be more important. Well, say there's two things that I think are important that not a lot of people do. The first is I would absolutely say I'd like most amateurs to squeeze the club harder than they do it address, regardless of what their subjective scale is. What I've seen and this is purely subjective. So this is just me talking golfers and watching what the hell happens. I see a lot better connectivity between their club hands, arms and torso through the first half of the backs one. So I can't prove anything, but I can tell you what I think and I think that when players are squeezing it a little bit harder, they get a little bit more muscle activation in the forearms up through the arms and they're able to turn on one piece more. And I think there's some value to that one of the things that stuck with me from the AMG guys is the amount of torso rotation that first half of the backswing is one of the biggest differentiators between elite ball strikers and sub-elete. So I think that's kind of cool. The other one is the professional subset was the only group that had their grip pressure decrease in transition. So their grip pressure lightened when the body was changing direction from backswing to downswing. A lot of people have been talking about the magnitudes that jumped off the page. It's easy to discuss because there's a number on it. The two things that feel are most important. Number one is actually is having amateur player squeeze a little bit tighter at setup. And you know what I've observed, I can't, you know, I've done research so I can't prove it, but what I've observed time and again is that gets better connection between the club, arms and torso through the first half of the backswing. One of the things that I think we've learned from the guys at AMG is that that amount of torso rotation early in the backswing is one of the biggest differentiators between elite and sub elite ball strikers. I think there's something to be gained for a lot of people there. The other one, and I think this is a really, really big one. The professionals are the only group that has their grip pressure decrease early in the down time. That was the one that stood out to me when I looked at the graph. Yeah, you're right. When we were actually, when Liam and I were initially discussing this, he posted the graph in a group of professional coaches. I think a lot of the coaches were using it as fuel to say, "Yeah, I told you, they all grip it tightly." Which is true at the start. When you look at the actual pattern and the wave, there was a drop in pressure in transition, which I think is a huge thing. Agreed. Absolutely. I think like that's one of the most important things. Here's where I'm still trying to figure some of this stuff out at him. As I'm trying to figure out, when is a person's body patterning in a place that would allow me to deliver that queue? The grip softening in transition. I think a lot of it has to do for me, like what I've been seeing, if someone has good sequence between lateral shift of pelvis and pelvis rotating before upper body, I think that can be a great path to explore going down. If their transition sequence starts with torso, I would highly recommend not giving them any cues on that softening of grip pressure. That's the next stage where I was in the intervention studies. Your wife found what she tried to do. I can't hit a golf ball anymore. Thanks for the grip pressure advice. I joked about when that article came out in golf magazine, I was joking with a couple of friends. You know what, I think this might be the most financially beneficial article in golf magazine history. It's going to f everybody up in the good. Well, I guess that's the big question with like golf research in general. Like if you uncover something that good players are doing and you try and reverse engineer that and explain it to another player and they're like, you know, the torques and forces and you know, all the biomechanics stuff. And then you try and explain it to someone, they're like, what? How do I do that? That's like the million dollar question is, you know, it sounds like grip strength is is a actionable takeaway. Like, yeah, lift weights and get stronger. Like that's becoming more and more popular in the golf world. There's just a lot of good things that happen to you when you lift weights. Right. Injury reduction, more control over your body, swing speed, tons of great things can happen. It sounds like this perception of grip strength could be very beneficial too. But now when you talk about this transition thing and as to your point, like, how do I explain that to someone or even should I even tell them about that? Yeah, no doubt. You could get a slicer, for example, who's using a lot of trail hand force. And then you look at the professionals who aren't slicing it or maybe even drawing it and you can say, oh, look, they're trail hand is super weak. Then when you implement a super weak trail hand into the slicer, they slice it worse, maybe. Potentially. Absolutely. And that's where I think, again, just and this will be ever changing. I'm sure for years, but to the best of my ability right now, I think there's instances where the patterning of body movements drives the grip pressure. I think a lot of times if you, you know, like in that example that you're talking about Adam, you know, I'm thinking about it here and going, okay, yeah, well, if I weaken that person's top hand grip pressure, they still initiated downswing sequence with club followed by torso followed by lower body. Like, oh, yeah, that person just shifted their path from nine out to end to 14 out to end well played. Yeah. Do you think the only teachable thing perhaps is just the overall intention and experimentation? Like, I've done this for years, especially like everyone who listens to this show knows I've been struggling with my wedges around the greens. Me relaxing, and this is a cue for a lot of my golf game, just relaxing my body and forearm, buts and hands is a great thing. It gets me hitting better shots. I know that versus if I did the opposite and tried to grip the hell out of it, I know that does not work well for me. So I think I've always been fascinated by this idea of your perception of grip pressure. And I think I guess take away to golfers is this is something you should be monitoring and experimenting with on your own to see what gives you better results is that because now you have data to show that yes, it does influence things. We just don't know what the right answer is for everyone. Yeah, I would my hope is that, you know, the community will take this and go, okay, this is cool. There's some meaningful information here. We don't know how to apply it, but at least like you said, it allows me to try and run some experimentation. And I would say there's like two things. I actually feel pretty comfortable saying our I guess as close to universally good as anything, you know, and the first one would be making lead hand only swings for the full swing. When we dive a layer deeper into the graphs, you know, the colored lines for people going find this stuff. It's out there. You can see it. If you look at the colored line, that's like the net grip pressure between both hands. For the professional, the slicer and the hooker, they all have dominant lead hand grip strength. The high handicap or the lowest skilled group was the only one that did dominated the club with trail hand pressure. So I feel comfortable saying that that's universally a bad idea. If you're right handed golfer, you should not be gripping it tighter with your right hand. Correct. And so when I have those players, types of players swing with the left hand only, it's amazing how many bad things I see go away. It's very difficult to cast with only your lead hand. It's very difficult not to start the down swing with only your pelvis of a lead hand. So yeah, I think there's some general universal benefits for people to experiment with those fields. Yeah, I've done a lot of one handed swings left hand. I've never seen someone cast it left hand only. It's almost hard to. Right. Right. Right. So that maybe sets the table for allowing people the opportunity to have a functional change in grip pressure. The second one is more from the short game and the short game stuff. I don't even know if it's been released yet or what capacity. But interestingly enough, within the short game, the group of professionals had by far the highest bottom hand pressure, trail hand, and they had the most variability. So is the opposite? Yeah, because it's golf. Why wouldn't it be the opposite? Well, because they're kind of like throwing the club a little bit with the right hand. Yeah, they're letting it pass a bit. So that's where I'm like, hey, go hit 20 yard pitch shots with your trail hand and go hit full nine hours with your lead hand. Yeah, come see me next week. When you said they had more variability, is that between players or between shots over the course of the swing or change over the stroke? Yeah, right. That was my third. Yeah, third one. Okay. So that makes sense. Okay. Looking at Amateurs here, this is very loose, but you'll get the idea. They were very lead hand dominant in their pressure application. And it was a very stable pressure over the course of the stroke. There was very little change, which makes sense. I wonder if there's a difference between like also technique. So I've been through hell with my wedges. And I've noticed that the trail hand like just hitting wed shots with my right hand has been more beneficial to me. And I saw an interesting video. I think it was from Derek Deminsky. It's a really good wedge teacher. And he was kind of saying, and this wasn't a hard and fast rule, but he's like, if you want to hit that shaft lean like low shot, just try gripping it with your left hand and experiment with that. But if you want that other shot where you're kind of letting the the club pass and bounce like do it with your trail hand. So I'm curious. I'm just wondering out loud. You were talking about the lead hand being stronger in the pros because they got ton of shaft lean, all that stuff. It's more dominant on that side. And you're kind of throwing the club with wedges sometimes. I don't know if there's something there, but that's what strikes me about it. That's interesting. That's the same way I'm looking at it. And then there's like other just little rabbit holes. My brain drives down as I'm like, okay, well, I mean, not always the case, but was these three professionals? They were all right hand dominoes. So now I think about these like finite little motor skills, right? It's not about speed generation or anything like that. If I'm just going to have a ball in my hand, of course, I'm going to flick it with my right hand. That's where I've got the touch. Yeah. So is that part of why this is taking over in this fine motor control area? Yeah. It's more of like that tossing a ball to your buddy. Right. Depth perception thing. Athleticism. Right. Exactly. So don't know, but I feel comfortable just being like, yeah, yeah, full swing lean hand, chip shot trail hand go. Kind of like that. It makes sense. At the moment, the data we have is pretty correlation wise. Next stage, I suppose, is to start varying things, start into intervene in lessons with people. Like you said, I'd ask them to do this, I ask them to grip it tighter at address, I ask them to relax it more, relax the trail hand in transition. And And then see, I suppose, if you did that over the course of 100 golfers, you could see on an individual level, whether that affects them positively or negatively, but also you could start to collect group wide data as well. For example, if you get them to relax their hand more in transition, do they hit it more right as a group on average? That's where, you know, let's go take again years to get all this data, but then we can you get some instinctive things that you've already found. Like, you know, if you sequence your body a certain way, you probably don't want to do this. You've already found that out. Yeah. Well, and that's my, my hope is that someone takes where we've got too so far and takes it and run with it. I don't think we're going to do that. I get freaked out about the list it would be for doing that properly because now I need to measure grip orientation and address. So now I need to know the 3D position of the lead and trail risk. So what's my flexion extension? What's my pronation? What's my owner deviation? And there's so many variables there. I think there would be a great topic for like a PhD dissertation. See then looking at how variables in the react. If you get them to grip it tighter in the dress, well, that might help the weaker grip players as in weak position versus strong position might respond differently. But then it could be another different variable that's related to it. It could be a swing pop thing that's more correlation with it. Right. And then I also get into okay, well, then there's, let's just stay simple here. There's the 3D positioning of the hands on the club. But then there's also where those are in relation to the person's end range of motion. Yeah. I mean, the way I'm looking at it is that, so you have two big takeaways that you kind of give in our listeners on this episode. One is that the size of your grip potentially could help you control the club face more and hit straighter golf shots if you get the right matchup. But we don't know what the right matchup is for everyone. But it's kind of a low hanging fruit for fitting and it's an easy thing to adjust. Secondly is that you've uncovered that grip pressure is relative to each golfer. Better golfers are usually have stronger grip pressure, which allows them to perceive like they're gripping it lighter, which might be a good thing for them. But either way, getting people to think about this and experiment with it as an intention, I think is very helpful because sometimes golfers just overlook this stuff. Like there are times where I under pressure internaments where I have to check in with myself. I'm like, are you gripping this thing like a python choking someone's neck? And like this really happened to me the other day in a playoff. I'm like, you got to relax, buddy. Like you need to relax your hands, your torso, your forearms, and just let this thing happen. Because if you don't, you're going to do the thing you don't want to do. That's a really important intention for people to experiment with. If that's all that comes from this is saying like, yeah, it's really important. We don't know the answer for everyone, but maybe lift some weights gets stronger, but experiment with this as well. I agree. And I think it makes me think of, I don't know, I'm going to just go with the general golf culture that I have experienced over my 26 some years as a pro. Most of them in North America is like, I'd say the North American golf and population, I just maybe just the Western golf and population has to be, I'm going to go with consistently undisciplined of any passionate sporting community I've ever seen. So all the grip pressure stuff aside, I'll tell you what I mean. I go out to the range the other day I'm hitting balls with the body crisp, and this is you by the way, because I know you'll listen to this. You know, we get out there and he does it every other golf on the range is let me grab my wedge, take two practice swings and let's start firing. All right, Mark, okay, cool, whatever. I don't really play much anymore. I'm starting to practice a little bit. I was in a bad car wreck, so my body is finally able to get golf balls again. So I'm doing hip circles and leg swings and like trying to at least get my body ready to move and then I'm going to put my target line down and then I check my ball position and then I finally hit a couple shots. And then I'm like, I work my way up okay, I'm going to hit a couple three yards and I got my target line down and very first I go through this five times where I just go through my full routine rehearsal and then right before I'm ready to pull the trigger I put a club down across my toes, worn across my shoulders and I check my alignment and then I reset and go through the full routine. And then five minutes later Chris is asking me to look at his golf swim. I'm like, bud, were you trying to hit it? Yeah. It's like, oh, what that yellow flag? I'm like, well, shit man, your feet are 20 yards left of that and your body's 20 yards right of that. Oh, so you know, I get them into the right setup. It's like, Jesus, this field weird. I'm like, well, yeah, but like think about how many times you tried to hit a ball at a target and never once you've seen, you've actually bothered to like practice aiming. Like that be like going to buy a rifle, you keep missing the target and instead of actually getting a scope check, you just go buy another rifle. This is literally golf. Yeah. Like people approach golf. It's wild to me to see people put in so much time and energy into absolutely futile endeavors. But I mean, they enjoy it, which is sweet. So it's awesome. We completely agree. We did a three hour episode on just the word alignment, I think at one point. God. That's a big one. It's just very basic. You know, there's their stories of when Michael Jordan first got to the NBA with the bulls where he like literally hammered all of his teammates who were too lazy to go over fundamentals because they were in the NBA. They're like, oh, we don't need to do this stuff. And he's like, yes, you do because I'm doing it. And I think, you know, not that everyone's going to become Michael Jordan, but the point is, is that true greatness is worrying about the simple things. Like why aren't you either? What are percent? Yeah, I got a little tweet here. I said, many golfers are trying to solve things that aren't even problems. No kidding. Absolutely. But to your point about the simple stuff, like, I guess it's what fills up your intention and your brain. So I would love for people to spend 60 minutes thinking about grip pressure in a range session or their swing tempo, like other things, alignment versus what video they just watched on YouTube about swing theory and just see what happens. But figure out the right answer for you because it's probably in there somewhere. Yeah. Take the emotion out of it too. That would be the other advice I would throw is like, I've been fortunate enough to operate in some pretty nice places where I've been giving lessons for years now to captains of industry, guys who have thousands of employees and make hundreds of split second decisions a day. And the second a golf club goes in their hand, their IQ gets cut in half and they become emotional. Absolute emotional wreck. Is it the most amazing thing when you see people who have conquered other parts of life and put them on a golf course and all the roles change and they don't like it? Well, yeah, it's wild. So like bring your notebook up to the driving range and be like, okay, I'm going to go real high tech with this. I'm going to take 10 swings or I squeeze as hard as I can. If it's a good shot, it's going to be a check. If it's a bad shot, it's going to be an X. And then do it at seven out of 10, four out of 10 and one out of 10. Which one has the most checks? Because what maybe you should do that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's like T height with driver, all different experiments. You could ride. Yeah. That's exactly what I do with players. When we're looking at, you know, what costs them on the golf course, we talk about the big three here, ground contact, face contact and then direction, which is predominantly face orientation. And so, you know, you're figuring out, okay, which one's costing you the most shots on the course or even doing a range session. And then if you figure, okay, well, it's ground contact, I keep hitting it fat, then you can run a few tests. Okay, let's add some more weight shift and see how ground contact improves. Let's work on a later switch. See how ground contact improves. Let's try and pick it and see how ground contact improves. So, yeah, I've got, I've done that so many times as instructor that I can kind of narrow down for a person. What will probably probably be more optimal for them. But, you know, ultimately these are all solutions to a problem. Just finding out which ones the right one for you through data. Absolutely. Cool. So, with the hand stuff, the pressure, I've got a couple of notes here to kind of summarize it for everybody. I think I'm summarizing it correctly when I say with, with the trail hand, pros actually start pretty light with the trail hand. And then they add some softening in transition with the trail hand, where the amateurs start super light with the trail hand and then it massively tightens throughout the swing. Doesn't it go above 100% at one point? With the high handicap group it did. Right. And that high handicap group was the only one that had trail hand dominate over lead hand for pressure and that was over the entire swing. Right. Yeah. And that's with the lead hand notes where pros start tighter at a dress. What was it? 45% of their max versus 25% of their max for amateurs. Is that right? A lot of the amateurs were even less, but yeah, you're right. You're right there. Yeah, I think I might be looking at total less. So yeah, pros start tighter at a dress, am start looser. The pros kind of maintain, no, pros get close to max with their left hand throughout the swing. Whereas amateurs, they get tighter but still less than the pro. And in terms of total grip pressure, pros start higher and then they kind of maintain it better throughout the swing, but there is a subtle softening in transition of total pressure. Yeah, you get that little blip. Yeah, yeah. Whereas amateurs start really low and then they really tighten above a pro level. - It comes mainly from the right hand. - Hanging on for dear life. - Yeah, and all that happens from like mid back swing, right? Where they cross over the pros. They start really loose, then they tighten it like hell after midway in the back swing. - Yep, you got it. - Cool. John, do you have any more questions? - No, I just, again, I'll reiterate, I love this stuff 'cause I think it's simple, low hanging fruit. And I really appreciate guys and women in the industry doing research like this that benefit golf in general. I'm sure it cost you guys a lot of time and money to make this happen, Liam. - It took a while. - Yeah, I'm glad to share this. Just, again, to have to take away just being like, yeah, get your grip size checked and experiment with grip pressure because we've got hard proof that it can make a significant difference. And don't go down the rabbit hole, right? People are interested, maybe we'll include some links. You can check out the golf digest article or golf.com articles that you had. I know some people love to deep dive into data and go down rabbit holes, but that's not how golf is played. That would be my two things to just tell people, like, hey, they did a ton of work here, they uncovered some cool stuff. There's no right answers for everyone, but we know this is important and you should experiment on your own. - Couldn't agree more. - Absolutely. - So where can everyone find all of your stuff, Liam? Where do people go? - So you can go Instagram at the golf lab. It is a good starting point. You know, it's an easy place for people to find graphs, videos, and dive deeper. Website is mygolflab.ca. That's also where you can find a bunch of our research, education, stuff like that. I think those would be your two good first starting points. - Nice. A huge shout out to like Canada. I was thinking about it. I think the Canadian golf community punches so above their weight in terms of population and like tour players on. There's a lot of really good stuff going on in Canada with youth programs and the research that's being done. So I've gotten to know a lot of the coaches and some of the players. And I just think Canada is kind of kicking ass at golf. - I think it's two things. First is what golf Canada's done over the last 20 years. And I'd say golf Australia's done the same thing, but it's create a true developmental pathway. - Yes. - That's had a massive impact. I think, you know, and I think a lot of this is just the fact that they're socialist countries. So gotta spend those tax dollars somewhere. (laughing) But I also think it's interesting because you can make the argument that a lot of other places have better climates for golf, right? Australia, do they get to play all year round there? You guys don't. - No, I think that's actually an advantage. Particularly in the early stages of development. And I think Australia gets it not so much through winter, but through a very passionate sporting community. But like, you know, I'm living in South Louisiana right now. And I'm, you know, I'm looking at kids that good golfers. They're top 10, top 15 in state right now is 15 year olds, but they also don't play any other damn sport. And I'm watching the multi sport athletes that haven't quite figured out the face control yet, but man, they send it 60 yards past these little runs. - Yeah, yeah. So you get the hockey players. - Well, the winter that forced off season up until you're like 14, 15 allows you to build strength coordination and skills from other sports which will transfer into golf. - Nice. - And then I can tell you say on my end, call it maybe more of the research community. When just when we do our research, right? That's when we have the time to mess with people. - Good points. - I know a lot of the Nordic countries used to, you know, they get such a short season, but doing winter, they have all the indoor facilities, even before, you know, simulators and GC quads, the hitting balls and doing that, working on their techniques. - Oh. Iceland is awesome. I was fortunate enough to do some work with their PGA, Olympic Committee, junior national teams. And like that country is just getting started to punch above its weight. And I loved it the first time I was over there. I'm, you know, I'm looking all the stuff and I'm like, wow. You guys are doing this right. And guy looks at me and he's like, yeah, we have four months of summer and 300,000 people. We can't afford to make a mistake. - Good point. - Good point. (laughing) - I was in Iceland and I saw, I don't know if it was the only or one of the golf courses there and looked pretty awesome to me. I wanted to stop over and play and I could, - They've got some very, very cool ones. - Yeah, the landscape's incredible. - Yeah, all the volcanic stuff. - I'm going on a crazy tangent there, but just want to give a shout out to the Canadian. I have a ton of Canadian listeners, but I just noticed golf kind of doing an incredible job. All right, so check out Liam's stuff and you could read the research more. And apologies to anyone who got this far. We had a ton of technical issues in this episode. Don't know for sure how well it's been stitched together, but if it was a bit incoherent at times, we apologize for that. We had some unforeseen technical issues. So apologies for that. Adam, where can everyone find your stuff? - AdamYoungGolf.com. John, where can people find your stuff? - You can go check out my new YouTube page, John Sherman Golf. And of course, my book, The Four Foundations of Golf, thanks everyone for listening. your feedback and we'll see you next time with a new episode.