How Erykah Badu shaped conversations in pop culture

"In our time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail?" "What were lines doing in York in the third century?" "I'm Misha Glenny and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world." "It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth, I know that sounds bonkers." "If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure." "In our time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts." "This is a cbc podcast." Listen, last week we got a big return. Erica Baidu gave us her first studio album in more than a decade. It's called "Before the World Blows." It's a collaboration with the Alchemist, one of the most acclaimed producers in hip-hop. So today, I check in on Erica's new album and her legacy up to this point. I'm Ellen Meenabda Mahmoud and this is commotion. Demila Lemieux is here. Now you look at Lita Mais here and Mark Anthony Niel's here. Hello to all of you. Welcome to the show. Hey, what's up? Hi guys. Nice to have you here. Listen, the new album is the occasion. So I think that is probably the place for us to start. So let's just start with this. That is a bit of a song called "Which Doctor?" It's off this new Erica Baidu in the Alchemist album. Demila, I'll start with you on this. This is Erica's first studio album in more than a decade. What are you liking about the Erica that you're hearing on this new project? I love it. I think this is. Erica's never lost it, but she still has it if anybody was concerned. And I've always wanted to hear the Alchemists with more R&B singers. I love his production so much. Their match made it happen. I completely agree with you. I think I kind of just put it on. I was like, "Oh, my body sort of knows how to groove to this before I'm even listening to, probably even know what I'm listening to." Let me go to you. What about you? What's your reaction to the record? I like that she's a 55-year-old black woman releasing a full-length album in a music industry and music environment that worships young, being young in the youth. And it has particular typecasts for black women singers and musicians that she's consistently challenged and pushed. And she does that on this album too. I like the sense of continuity that this album has from her earliest album. She's exploring similar themes, thinking about asking us to think as individuals and to not follow groupthink. And I just love the atmosphere of it. It reminds me of seeing her live, which I got to do years ago. And there's a way that she conjures a kind of space and an environment. And she's able to do that sonically, that in a way that had me imagining her on stage and dancing and referencing all of her work and understandings as a theater practitioner and an overall artist. Yeah, I think atmosphere is absolutely the word that comes to mind when I think about Erica. I feel like she's someone who creates an atmosphere with her music. And then you get to sort of step into it and walk around and you can kind of feel it all around you. I was driving in this morning, listening to this record and there was a bit of a foggy drive in. And I was like, oh, this feels like this album. It's just a thing that I'm immersed in and I get to sort of live in this world. I want to come back to the record in just a moment, but Mark, let's go back to the beginning if you don't mind. How did Erica sort of first catch the world's attention? He entered into a world of R&B, you know, in the mid 1990s that have been dominated by LA Reed and baby phase and Teddy Riley and the early moments of what Ditty was doing with hip-hop soul. And of course, it's also before that Timberlin Missy Elliott bounce sound from the late 1990s. And what you heard on her first album was something that referenced the acoustic soul of the 60s and the 70s, but it was something that was just so brand new. It was otherworldly, right? And it wasn't otherworldly in this kind of electronic sense that we would think of that later in the 1990s, but there was just something very spiritual, something very acoustic, something very grounded about the sound that cut against the grain of what we were hearing in hip-hop and R&B at the time. I think that when we think about the words neo soul, like this idea, like almost most of the time, the word neo, anything that follows them, like I don't like the thing that's going to follow it. However, with neo soul, you can kind of make a bit of an exception to me, you know, a little bit, but like when we think about someone like Eric or someone like DeAngelo, what did mainstream R&B sound like before they got here? Yeah, it's all those things, right? A lot of electronic music, a lot of programming and of the jam and Lewis thing with the programming of the drums. And you know, I hate to term as most people do neo soul because it was an interesting term to try to explain what we were hearing. There are a lot of ways in which DeAngelo and Badu kind of sound the same, but, you know, Michelle, Daniel, Michelle does not sound like them. I think the thing that cut across the grain that made Erica so distinct, obviously was her voice. And folks will always talk about what she sounds a little bit like Billy Holiday. You know, for me, the the the sound of of Erica Badu's voice is someone who grew up in the 80s, who listened to Billy Holiday, but also listened to pop top 40 radio. So I always hear Stevie mix, right? I hear her drawing on all these different kind of references. So it was the quality of her voice, obviously the imagery and the high use of musicianship, right? It always was first forward with whatever we call neo soul was the use of Stella musicians. And they show up on so many of the albums, which is why it has this kind of unique and unified sound at the same time. To that end, let's let's take a moment to grant ourselves in some of the classic Erica Badu songs. Here are some of the classic songs. That Tyrone live, man. Okay, so this is in backwards there are Tyrone and then love of my life, bag lady and on and on. Those are the classic. Those are some of the biggest songs that we know Erica Badu for, but she didn't just shift the night to sort of shift the image of the 90s with her music. She also did it with her image and that's we're talking about her hair here. I want to talk a little bit about the way that her hair, her natural hair conversation that she started, but also the full locks conversation that she started. What did you tell us a little about that Naila? Well, in Erica entered the mainstream, she was already trained in theater and performance, which focuses in part on how to create a character through images. And the images she portrayed included these tall, thick head wraps with a bit of hair showing at the front, enough to make you think that they were dreadlocks. And that was a dramatic departure from European standards of beauty that dominated black hairstyles at the time. You know, that black woman adhered to through a range of social pressures and so most black women were straightening or relaxing their hair. But then she said in an interview that her hair was fake. And people were forced to contend with that, like rupture in her image and the notions of afro-centricity and authenticity that she had invited and that had also been foisted upon her. And I would say that this was like particularly complex in a Canadian context where there's a strong Caribbean culture that associate dreadlocks at the time associated dreadlocks with rostropharianism with that religious belief. And to be rostophari was to stand against and deviate from the mainstream, from colonialism, from mainstream religions. And it meant to be persecuted. Dreadlocks were not welcome in the workplace. They were not welcome in schools. They were not welcome in most places of worship. And so when she said that they were, that her dreadlocks were fake, you know, rostopharianism was really a symbol of authenticity. And so it seemed that she was taking that lightly, even though in reality, she may not have understood all of those nuances coming as an African-American from Texas. I had not thought about that in the context of her theater background. I really appreciate that context that sort of makes me think about it a little bit differently, Ashley. Jamila, let me go to you. What did you make of the way that Erica sort of helped the shape, the conversation, the black hair in popular culture? Well, it's interesting, you know, like, Naila said, her revealing that her locks were fake was kind of like a big moment because at that moment in time, fake hair was straight and natural hair was natural hair, right? We weren't really dealing with the overlap. And today, you see the, and Erica helped to popularize the natural aesthetic as opposed to natural hair, right? And so when you think of her and Jill Scott and a lot of the performers of that, you know, there were categorizes Naila, so there's a lot of fake hair, right? There's a lot of, you know, started locks that were used to start off some very famous women's dry locks, you know. And it's interesting. I think also aesthetically, Erica really helped to introduce to the mainstream a particular kind of black character that's very, you know, you know, present in our communities. And that's the black bohemian, right? And so that we saw that a little bit with Chris Stummer on a different world. And Lisa Bonet on the Cosby Show in a different world. And it's interesting how often the few, the first black bohemian who got to be bohemian in public worldwide skin women. And she represented just, you know, a variety of blackness that you would see working at the health food store, teaching a yoga class, burning incense, selling oils, you know, someone who had been a staple in black communities, but was not always represented in black popular culture. - Okay, great point to me, Lai. I just wanted to take a quick break right here. We'll be back in just a moment because obviously more to talk about when it comes to Erica Beto. - In a world where the news feels bigger, louder, and harder to make sense of, Canadians need more than headlines. Hi, I'm Karen C. Olin, news reporter and host of the big story podcast from world shaping events to the everyday stories that spark debate. My team and I will explain what matters and why it matters to you. We're here to help you make sense of the news and give you the context you need for those kitchen table conversations. Trusted, Canadian-focused, curious. Listen to the big story wherever you get your podcasts. ♪ Lies a baby where do you lose ♪ ♪ Then you wait the grove is new ♪ ♪ Hit me up and flat to the moon ♪ ♪ I can't feel the dawn approaching ♪ ♪ Life's a game you win or you lose ♪ ♪ Then you wait the grove is new ♪ ♪ Hit me up and flat to the moon ♪ ♪ Hit me up and flat to the moon ♪ - So that's the song's called to the moon plan C. It's Erica Beto featuring Steve Lacey. It's off this new record before the world blows, which is a collaboration between Erica Beto and the optimist. Mark, we talked a little bit about the way that Erica has influenced pop culture with her music and her image. But Erica's also from a time and musicians where maybe a little bit more expected to speak about the issues of the day. What do we think of Erica's track record when it comes to that? - You know, I won't delve into much into what she said over the years. What I think is really important is that she was comfortable not having a filter. If it was on her mind, she was gonna say it and she was gonna be willing and able to deal with whatever blow black and controversy that came with that. You think about the way that she was very supportive of the Million Man March at a period of time where folks were kind of on the fence. Both black and white folks about, you know, a figure like the nation is like, no as far as conning the nation to Islam. The fact that it's so much of her lyrical rhetoric, particularly on that first album, was drawn from the 5% nation, you know, which again is kind of a culture, you know, mainstays in black American communities, right? Not well known and themselves didn't have a clear filter when they talked about race and white supremacy and white folks. And this was something that she embraced, right? And even visually represented it in some of her music videos. I think what's interesting about her formation in this context is this is really before social media, right? And so, you know, she kind of has to recalibrate a little bit when Twitter is a thing and social media is around, but always, right? She's always willing to say what was on her mind, which I think is really important when we talk about artists who are deeply committed to community, deeply committed to cultural sustainability. She's always been willing to share what was on her mind if she thought it was important for her too. - Hi, Jimmy, we should say like, some of those comments have gone her in a significant amount of hot water, right? I'm thinking about the comments that she made about Hitler, the comments that she made about Bill Cosby about our Kelly. Do you want to talk a little bit about the hot water she got into there? - Yeah, you know, I'll say as a millennial who was very influenced by Erica, aesthetically, I want to dress like her, I want to be like her and Lauren, you know, and some of the rappers that I grew up listening to and then getting a little older and then hearing her think, you know, and understanding that this is somebody who passionately depends our Kelly, passionately depends Bill Cosby. You know, it was kind of a sobering reminder that just because somebody's an artistic hero doesn't mean that they're a political figure, you know? And Erica dressed herself in the costume of a politicized blackness, but in reality, she has not been terribly outspoken about social issues. And the few times she's dipped her toe in the water, she said things that we don't like. - Jamila, I got to ask you those words note that we are now living in this moment where you do have social media and social media is given us things like Black Lives Matter and like has made that movement much more sort of coherent and cogent. And we've got a generation of sort of media savvy voices that actually are qualified to speak on those social political issues. Do you feel like now there's less pressure on artists like Erica Batu to take that moment and speak because we've got other voices who can maybe fill that space? - Yeah, there's so many people. I mean, I've been online pals with Mark Anthony Niel since I was in my 20s, right? This was someone of the first people whose books I picked up when I got to Howard and I was so excited to learn from him. So there are, you know, 25-year-old TikTokers that have a better political education than Erica, who can break down what's going on in this moment of history. So we don't require her voice in that way. You know, we need her singing and making music and entertaining us, you know, the revolution needs artists to keep the people going. But I don't think that I think that first kind of wave of social media folks like Erica's revealing certain things about themselves kind of made us realize like we don't need our celebrities to be our supposed people and oftentimes it's better if they don't. - If you're not. - Obviously, Naila, what do you make of what Jamila's saying there? - Yeah, certainly, I certainly see what Jamila is saying and agree with it in many ways. I do think as well, though in black music, there is a tradition of black artists who are socially engaged and who are activists and politically involved and who have been and have thoughtful things to say and are thoughtful about their content. What Erica has done is that she's, in many ways, dressed the part, you know, and did that again if you think of the cover of World Wide Underground when she's in the massive fake Afro referencing the '60s and '70s. So there are ways that she has clothed herself or presented herself as being deeply rooted in that. And I think that what she's mostly rooted in is an interest in not being contained, which is very different than those black traditions of being activists through your artistic expression. So those voices to me are still incredibly important as is that tradition. - I want to ask a little bit about the musical legacy and the musical influence that Erica's had because Mark, I'm really interested in the fact that you see a lot of young artists, particularly young black men who are reference Erica as a reference point. And some of them show up on this record, right? Like Steve Lacey's on this record, Earl Swechers on this record. Drake has forever sighted Erica Badu as one of his sort of, you know, primary sort of influences, both in image and also just in terms of like the vibe that he's trying to create. What do you make of the cross-generational appeal of Erica Badu, the thing that has made her inspiration to young artists even now? - First of all, it's the longevity. She's managed to remain relevant in some way now for 30 years, in updating herself for new generations of folks as they emerge. I think the thing that stands out ultimately is the fact that she's always been committed to doing it on her own terms. You don't rush Erica Badu, she's going to release an album when she's going to release an album. She's not going to let the marketplace dictate when she should do that. She's not going to let her fans dictate when she should do that. She's going to do it on her own terms. I was struck by an interview that she did with the guardian, you know, responding to why it's taking us so long to do another album. And she said, "I need a time to collect data." I actually wish more artists would take time to collect data in their lives, in their personal lives, in their experiences and their emotions in the world before they, you know, return back to the studio to push out other things. You know, there is this notion, particularly in black culture, because it's so deep valued in the marketplace that you have to pump something out all the time. You know, you got to drop 12 ricks takes and then drop an album every year. I love artists who take the time to just live, and be with themselves for a while. And she's part of her tradition there. And we think about the Angela when you think about Shade, it's just contemporary examples of that. I think younger artists appreciate that in her. And she becomes a role model for them in that regard. - I was going to say, this sort of came up as a theme when we talked about Shade, not that long ago, you and I, but also, you know, you see this in the just called, as well as something which is like, "Well, I'm going to take my time." And then when I have something to say, that will be the moment when I actually have, you know, come out and say it. Demi, let me ask you the same question in terms of this idea of the younger, the appeal to younger generations of artists. What do they look to when they look to Eric about you? Do you think? - I just think, you know, her authenticity, her ability to show up as herself in her own way. I think it's been so influential, you know? She's just cool, you know? Like she's cool in ways that, you know, many people are just simply not. You know, you want to get his upon her, you want to know what she's thinking about. And, you know, I just think between that and her having this really beautiful voice that sounds a little like Billie Holiday, like Mark said, but also sounds like something, maybe you heard from the 70s, Thank you very much. you've never heard before, you know, she's a, she's a generational talent. - I think like for me, Naila, what I'm really interested in is like when I hear someone like Drake say, okay, Erica Baidu is like, not just a reference for me, but like a sort of a North Star for me in terms of like the way that he sort of structured his career. I try to sort of figure out where that shows up in his music or at least like in the general vibe that do you see that? Do you see that in all the artists who say like, hey, I really look to someone like Erica, do you hear it in the music or do you sort of see it anywhere else in the presentation? - I think it's aspirational. It's the notion that you can be different characters that you can change what you're presenting and kind of rejects notions of what, in her case, female blackness is supposed to be or whatever your thing is supposed to be. And imagine something different. To take up a different kind of space and a different kind of imagination and to think through sound differently as well and to create these shapes. She's really been quite different even in her live performances. This kind of interactive conversation that she has with audiences. So I think that there is a way that other artists aspire to the freedom that she seems to express and live and a willingness to be an artist. And that is fundamentally like what she's always been and what she was trained to do long before she entered the mainstream. She genuinely is an artist, not a singer who started singing because they wanted to have a career in the mainstream. She's a trained artist. And I think that that really shows and that's what artists resonate with and experience and feel from her. - I've always appreciated the artists who can kind of very formally say, I really have a hard time and reject all the trappings of having to be a commercial artist and that those are not for me. And I'll let you know when I'm ready in my own time. And then they do. They really do just disappear until they have the thing to say. Mark, I think it would be useful to say, maybe like a landless conversation at a place of saying, what is the thing that Erica Baidu does as a musician that other artists don't do as well? What is the thing that she does so well that people sort of gravitate towards? - Consistently shows up as herself. And that's it. That she's not moved by marketing reports. She shows up as herself. And this is the thing, right? As was mentioned earlier, she is a performer. She is impacted by the idea of being on stage and in training and theater. But that doesn't mean that she doesn't show up as herself as she shows up in all these different characters. - To be able to give you the last word here after listening to this new album of America, where would you rank it alongside her sort of full length discography? - I was put this in the upper quintile, type of 75% of Erica Baidu music. She did this consent with Mama's Gun and World Wide Underground and her debut album. - I've only done the two listens so far and I'm so excited to return this record. In the meantime, I really appreciate your time. Thank you guys so much for being on the show today. Thanks again. - Thanks, Emily. - Yes, of course. - Emily LeMue is a culture critic and the author of Black Single Mother, which is out now. Naila Khalita May is a multidisciplinary artist, Canada Research Chair, and professor at the University of Waterloo. And Mark Anthony Neal is a James B. Duke, Distinguished Professor of African and African American Studies at Duke University. Erica Baidu's new album with the alchemist, it's called Before the World Blows, and that is out right now. And also, if you're in the Toronto area, you can catch Erica Baidu live at the RBC Amphitheater in Toronto on September 13th. That's it for the show today. My name is Elimine Abdelmaimud. If this is a commotion, we'll be back tomorrow. We'd love to see you then. (upbeat music) - For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.