How Do Surf Parks Deal With Risk?

[Music] The WavePool Mag podcast is made possible due to support from WavePool operators, technology providers, and the growing list of companies doing business in the surf part space. For commercial opportunities, reach out to us at [email protected]. Thank you and stay stoked. So your folks are going out of town. Just use your best judge, you know we trust you. Got the place all yourself. In risk, the world is your battlefield. You are the general, leading armies across borders, conquering everything in your path to take over not just a country, but the entire world. [Music] In creating this podcast, Sound Montage, we've realized that the word "risk" has a big presence in pop culture, including the famous board game and the 1983 Tom Cruise movie "Risky Business". Why are we so obsessed with risk? It's said to be part of the human condition and an evolutionary trait. Our ancestors survived by being prepared for all kinds of problems. Our jam is homo sapiens seems to be worrying about what could go wrong and then being prepared for that outcome. Paul Chivers tells us that 99% of the time your surf part project team will get it right. However, it's when the randomness of the universe shows up that you need to be prepared. And when it does, it's never as glorious as a teen movie or as fun as family game night. Thankfully, there are people like Paul who put things into perspective and break down all the factors of what could possibly go wrong. Paul Chivers is kind of the opposite of how I expected him to be. For whatever reason, I pictured a nervous, sweaty man constantly looking up at the ceiling for loose acoustic tiles or poorly wired lighting. But he isn't like that. He appears to embrace things with typical Aussie swagger and bravado, whereas I thought having an erotic outlook on life would be a job asset. It couldn't be further from the truth. At one point in the podcast, Paul started talking about something called ISO 31,000, which, despite sounding like a club DJ software program, simply means there's a system in place to help people manage all kinds of risk. He tells us that ISO 31,000 is an international standard that provides principles and guidelines for risk management. It outlines a comprehensive approach to identifying, analyzing, evaluating, treating, monitoring, and communicating risks across an organization. It was comforting to know that surf parks, the new kids on the block for investment risks, injury lawsuits, and more, have Sherpa metrics to help guide them through the assessment of each layer of a new wave pool project. How does risk assessment work? Let's find out. Welcome to the Wave Pool Mag podcast. My name is Brian and my very special guest today is Paul Chivers from Risk Management. What is the official name of your company? Risk Facilitator. It might sound kind of odd having something that doesn't have to do with wave generation or guest user experience, but risk facilitation is very key component to any operating wave pool or surf park, along with the periphery that people typically don't think about when they walk through the gates and jump in the water. Oh, welcome to the show. Thanks, Brian. Always good to catch up with you again, right? So I did. You'll be proud of me. It's 8 a.m. here and it's in the evening. With my morning coffee, I did a little more research than usual. For risk, I found a risk assessment is the process of identifying what hazards currently exist or may appear in the workplace. A risk assessment defines which workplace hazards are likely to cause harm to employees and visitors. Is that what you do? Not bad. Not bad. And I guess the realm of risk management, there's an international standard for risk management. It's called ISO 31,000 and they have a definition of risk, which is the effect of uncertainty on your objective. And I love that definition because it's much broader than just saving. Because obviously there's risk in finance. There's so many different dimensions of risk and they all have certain controls. But when we mention the word risk, we naturally gravitate to safety. Because that's what we will think we think risk and safety. And in the world of the surf parks, we tend to also think about safety because that's what pops up. So my background is really in the methodology around risk management and ensuring that we have robust controls in place and challenging controls. Asking the question, is this really an effective control or is it a perception that we think it is a control that will work and why are we throwing money at controls that don't work? For example, we might argue that a helmet is an effective control in reducing head injuries. And this is a great debate. It does. It actually reduced the risk of injury. Let me back up just to be clear here. So your risk work within the surf park industry is geared more towards user safety or more toward the financial end. I would say probably in the capacity of working currently, it's more around safety. And let's jump into that. Typically around work, health and safety and the controls that are being put in place to manage the risk associated with the operational components. So the actual doing, the surfing, the running of parks, how do we mitigate the possibility of harm or injury to people? So yeah, that's really much requested at the moment with working. And to do that in a manner that doesn't require a lifeguard to hire someone full time, every five feet of the periphery of the wave call. I'm guessing. Yeah, and these are great discussions. It's all about proportion because everything costs money, doesn't it? So if I have 20 upgards, am I safe if I have two lifeguards? How do I come to that conclusion? How do I determine what is proportionate and what is reasonable due diligence? What is enough? Because if I'm operating on very small margins, everything counts. If I could save money, I could drop one lifeguard. Am I being negligent? Am I still managing the risk more effectively? Or could I change the system of design to better demonstrate safety? There's so many components to think about. And I think these are the discussions that many operators of surf parks around the world are probably challenged with. There's like, wow, we're lean. We've got money or we don't have any margins. And guess what are they starting to look for? Okay, can we reduce staff here or can I save money here or what does it look like? Could I increase the frequency of waves? And what does that mean? Does that mean does it induce new risks? Have we assessed that? Do we know the consequences? You know, wherever there's initiatives or key initiatives of change or growth, we induce new risks. And the question is, are we in fact managing them? And I think that's what we're really in many parks at the start to ask that question. So when you come in and you speak to a development, you speak to a business, to a project that's up and coming, are they surprised? Do you ever hear the words like, wow, I never thought of that? Or do you play the role of the wet blanket? You're bumming everyone out and saying, oh, you got it, do you really need to. I think what it is is targeting real risk versus perception. So my job is not to scare operators into thinking, wow, this is not worth it. It's actually just the reality of what they might not have thought about. And I'm just thinking in the perspective of the regulator or the inspector who's coming in. I'm just my view is exactly what they're going to do. What they're looking at, they're looking at and they're going, okay, you are now a commercial operation. And this is a really hard concept to grasp, I think, as an operator, considering most of us have come from a recreational background of surfing. But hold on, now we're going to take that and put into a commercial scene. So if I go out and go for a surf out, you know, just out the back here and I go for a surf and I injure myself, that's my responsibility. However, if I go and do the same thing in a surf pool and I injure myself, guess what? The responsibility resides with that operator. They're now liable. Even though I should accept the consequences, I don't have to. We have wonderful lawyers who will naturally sue a surf park in a heartbeat because, oh well, you didn't discharge your duty. You weren't and you didn't have it. have reasonable controls in place. And so that's the lens that we've got to look through. And it's really sad that we have to look like that. It's a shame that we can't accept, you know, accept the consequences associated with the inherent risks associated with surfing. But we also have to ask the question around, are the systems designed in pools thinking about these risks? Are we designing pools to be safe? Are we really, you know, or have we are we, is it an afterthought? You know, are we focused on creating just barrels that are just epic? And we've maybe not thought about the consequences of those barrels. Have we thought about, have we thought about enough, you know, do we have reasonable controls in place? I think these are what case law are starting to show us, you know, prosecutions, if any, you know, this is what's, this is a driving conversation now, you know? Okay. And have you found, like you mentioned, litigation is on the tree of litigious countries is, whereas Australia versus the United States or the United States. A lot of people think that it's the US, but I would argue that I think I feel straight is one of the most litigious places in the world. And it's normally due because of the high standards it has in terms of regulations. But therefore the probability of litigation is so much higher. I really feel it used to be. And a lot of people still say, oh, the US, US, but look, I have clients in the US and I have clients here in Australia. And I know, I would argue that it's actually Australia in terms of, well, is litigious for sure. Okay. Yeah, I would not, I would have said California is straight off the country of California. Yeah. Well, they're all in there and it's, it's very easy to sue. You can sue anyone whether they're all right. It's just two ways. And I guess operators, yeah, it's a shame. It's a real shame. I think operators are doing their best with what they have, but we want to make them better. We want to make sure that they're making informed decisions. And to do that, you have to demonstrate the process of how you got to a point of an informed decision. And that's what all serve park operators need to be asking themselves, how do I get to this decision? Was it informed or we wasn't? It was because it was a gut feeling or did we have a systematic approach to how we made it a form decision? And that's what they, they have to start to drive, drive more towards. Okay. And then usually by having that and doing your due, due diligence and that you checked all the boxes to come up to that, then you're so to speak good to go. Although it sounds like you're never really entirely good to go off the hook after all these measures, offering helmets, which we'll get back to, lifeguards, people signing 10 pages of waivers. Shit still happens. So. Where does responsibility sit like when, when, when can the consumer accept a level of risk? You know, what's acceptable? You know, what's, is it acceptable to get a laceration? Or how big is the laceration? Is it acceptable to have a heavy fall and maybe hurt your shoulder or maybe get a fracture? Is that acceptable? And these are the questions that we have to work out as an industry. You know, in surf parks, what is the acceptable range of injury? And I think that's really hard because like for an Australia, for example, you get a head injury in a workplace. It's a notifiable occurrence. You know, so you actually have to report it to the regulator and the regulator, if you're getting multiples, is going to come in and have a look and go, wow, okay, we're going to investigate. We're going to, are there issue improvement notice or we're going to, you know, try and prosecute. You know, we've got a, each, each country is different in terms of how they will regulate. But you know, this is why Australia is really setting a bit of a precedence here and, and regulators are taking a really strong look at what it is a surf park and what, what risks do they induce? Okay. And then, and the, you mentioned as surf parks as we pools come up, you, a business starts up and they have, they, they, they contact you. Is there like everyone you talk to, no one's going to say, oh, yeah, we're irresponsible. Everyone's going to say, yeah, we took care of that. Yeah, we did a good job of that. We've got Jim over there on the lifeguard stand. You know, no one's going to willingly say they're negligible. So how do you gauge that when it's such a, well, I think, I think you have some metrics that you, that you. Look, I think that every single surf park does a level of due diligence and no one goes to work wanting to kill someone. That's just, yeah, exactly. Everyone wants to deliver their best work and there's no different to surf parks or wapes. Everyone is creating the best space to have the best fun and reduce the possibility of injury. The question is, you know, a lot of people, I guess, don't really understand, well, your appetite for risk taking might be very different to mine. And, and, and does is that all right in a surf park? So the question is, if we profiled all those surf parks around the world, I guarantee if you'd been and surfed every park, you would get a sense for a high risk venue versus a low risk venue. It's just like if you're surfing your local break, there will be certain breaks that are, oh, this is a high risk. I can't get a die here or, you know, this is a really chill break. I love this break. This is great. Sand, nothing to worry about. Love it all the time. So this is going to be the same, you know, the profiling of surf parks will be not only the breaking wave, but it'll be the actual, the whole service delivery of how do, how does, how does safety, how is safety actually implemented or, I guess, embedded into the package, you know, do they have, you know, do they have lifeguards in the water or do they stand on the side, you know, do they design pools around impacts? Do they, you know, provide PPE to assist if you need it? You know, it's, it's just thinking outside the box, you know, there's no, there's not a world we want to be surfing, wearing life jackets and helmets. Like, it actually takes away from the experience. So what's the point? So we have to design surf parks that actually allow us that freedom of what surfing is about. That's the whole point. And so good risk management understands the objective. And like I said in that definition, the start risk is the effect of uncertainty on that objective. Our objective is to be free and surf. So what are all the things that are uncertain around that? Our job is to find that uncertainty and give us some level of certainty, you know, design controls that, you know, a systematic design controls that are fit for purpose, are portioned to the risk. Don't throw in controls that, you know, solve everything, but they're not proportionate, you know, and like we're talking about the helmets and things like that. So we've got to really think about the controls that we're implementing in surf parks and not be knee jerk reactions. We've got to look at where the critical problems are, where they originate from and treat the system versus just focusing on the end result, you know. Okay. So we're all familiar with the world of waples and surf parks. Your experience comes from industries outside of out of the pool. Can you give us some examples of what's been done in other industries that you've worked with? Yeah, look, look, look, fortunate enough to work with Sal GP, which is like the formula one of sailing and that's, you know, all over the world. And I guess that's a challenging environment because we've got, you know, like a formula one event that goes to different countries with different regulations, different requirements and, and, and because it's at the, I guess, the pinnacle of the sport. So, you know, racing a yacht at 100 kilometers an hour around on water, on foiling above water is really high risk. Now, if, if something goes wrong, mass snaps or something, it could be catastrophic. So, you know, how they've introduced PPE and control measures is very calculated. They have an amazing risk team that were diligently behind the scenes in, in assessing risk and understanding what the real risks are so that they can come up with relevant and proportionate controls that address the problems. They have specific helmets, for example, that they wear, which addresses some of their high risk concerns, but they're very customized and, and, and fit for purpose for what the athletes need. They also have impact vest, for example, which are designed with oxygen built into it. So that if they're in a capsize, what's the, or turtle and they're trapped under the vest or that they can breathe for a few minutes so that they can actually have time to escape or they can be, be rescued. But all this equipment has been thought out and, and is fit for purpose. But that's still, you know, where they're still learning about, okay, what, what is this sport? It's only been around for the last, you know, five years and they're pushing the boundaries. It's getting faster. It's getting more dangerous. Just like for the athletes, they're not going to be able to get the best of them. Formula One can't race it. It's you don't know me in the invention of the halo. To think about that 10 years ago would have been a joke. It's like, what are you kidding me? You wouldn't have that. So the question is, when we look at surfing, is what does this look like in five years time? What does the sport look like in terms of a commercial environment? I think there's two different environments here. There's the surfing environment and then there's the commercial environment and what does that space look like? And I think it needs robust attention and thought. Otherwise, what happens? We will come up with silly controls. We'll come up with controls that ruin the objective of what these parks set out to be. And I think that's a real shame and I think it can't be lost and I think it's going to take thought leaders in this space to make sure that they're coming up with amazing controls that are proportionate to the risk and we're not allowing regulators and authorities to govern what they think is safe. Do you know what I mean? We have to be on the front foot and determine as an industry what we feel is safe for this sport. And I think that's a really critical move that the industry has to do. Yeah, and I've been hearing that in conversations across other disciplines within the industry. Everyone's looking for a standard, or something that each pool can adopt. But given the space and the nature of it, there's so many challenges and hurdles. For example, different technologies. You know, the wave garden cove is different shapes and an endless surf. You're so, where do we go from here? What's being done? Or what needs to be done? And then what is being done? I think the, and look, we've worked in the helicopter industry through North America and I think we learned what we do, we came to the conclusion that safety was an competition and it's all right for surf parks, for example, to compete. But when it comes to safety, is it really a competition? Or is there an opportunity to come together as a group and work out a set of standards? And I think we've had this conversation before in terms of coming up with standards that also have parks adopt, you don't mean it has a minimum. Because as an entity with so much strongery, pulling our knowledge in our understanding and sharing that across all pools, like, you know, there should be a standard in the international standard of what our expectations are. And that group needs to have one objective is that, hey, we're here to for sustainability and making sure that safety is proportionate and controlled by the experts that run these pools. They, they, you know what I mean? The experts have to be the key and pivotal conversation starters. Otherwise, if we're not, then regulators become that driver, lawsuits become the driver, insurance companies become the driver and they dictate how these pools work. And I guarantee you won't have pools in five years time. There'll be white elephants. You'll have a lot of awesome skate parks and so I think this is a serious conversation that needs to happen. And so the sustainability can happen so that we can actually go, you know what, take safety seriously and be at the forefront of it. You know, start to desire and serve parks with safety at the forefront of the design. Do you want to make it? Yeah. And be a market leader in it, you know? And in one of these conversations, people had pointed to America as if they set a set of standards than other countries will follow suit. Is that correct? Well, I think it's about, it's similar to like what's, like an ISO standard. An ISO standard is generated through multiple committees all around the world that challenge what is being, you know, built as a guideline. They challenge it. It's through robust consultation. They, they come up with an international best practice guideline. I really feel that's what needs to happen that we challenge guidelines from around the world. You know, we know that in Australia, we have some really heavy regulations and requirements. So that's great. It might be too much for other countries around the world. So we have to work out, well, what's proportionate to all these countries? What's reasonable? And so, you know, this is where we have forums, but there needs to be dedicated safety forums of discussion, just, you know, focusing on case law, focusing on regulations, focusing on where the future's taking us. What does design look like? You know, the innovation that's coming in in terms of, you know, lifeguard operations. What does this space look like in the next five years? And how is that going to affect the operation capacity of these, these parks? That's where we need to be having conversations. Okay. So if you, if I were to pin you down to where are we in the course of coming up with an international best practices guide? Oh, well, I know, I know there's a committee and, you know, working very hard behind the scenes in establishing this. And I'm sure there's different agencies that probably feel that they have great standards. Look, I think there's probably been a lot of work. I have not seen that. I'm sure it exists. The question is for me is always around demonstrate the level of consultation you had in determining what you've written. So any piece of paper that I review, guideline, standard that comes to me, I straightaway go to the consultation list of who the subject matter experts you've consulted with. And what level of engagement have they had in the development of this? Or is it just one person writing 90% of the document and then we put it out for feedback? There's a different point of view. So for me, a real proper process is really, you know, survey-based, you know, wide spectrum, utilizing and confirming that we've had consultation with all surf parks and we've captured multiple avenues and dimensions of risk from each of these surf parks so that we can build a profile that's, we actually really understand what the real risks are so we can come up with amazing controls. You just don't write guidelines and standards. You do risk assessment. You understand the risk. You develop the controls and you extract those controls into amazing policy standards, guidelines, procedures. That is the true flow of, you know, making an informed decision. And a lot of times we miss that risk assessment piece. We miss the consultation piece. We get straight into policy and procedures. Oh, this is wonderful. This is a guideline. And the most critical part, the defensibility is in that first context section, you know? - Okay. So as long as you have the, dreams of dreams of paper backing up that show that you did your homework, that show that you explored every possible risk, then that's the best way to ensure that your surf park is a safe place. Say as reasonably safe as it can be given a dangerous sport like surfing. - Well, is it dangerous? - I don't know. I wouldn't put it in that classification. - Oh, I would argue that it's not based on the frequency of waves and the probability of injury. I would still classify it as a low risk sport. - Yeah. And then, yeah, you look at something like skateboarding, which is, I mean, you fall. - Surfing's great. You fall, you just hold your breaths for a little bit. I mean, skating you slam. You break things. And I think about the, even late 70s, early 80s and Southern California, there were all these skate parks starting to open up. And then through litigation, they all closed just a few years. Were these commercial skate parks or were they recreational based? - No, they were commercial skate parks. It was a big O and Orange County. Was one that was just super famous and then just shut down. It was two. - And look, ultimately that's what I'm fearful of. I'm really fearful of surf parks being prosecuted to a point of, it's not sustainable anymore. And I'm, and look, I'm sure there'll be hopefully some listeners who run these parks going, I know exactly what he's talking about. And it's gonna take the leaders of the industry to go, "You know what, we need to have serious conversations around this. We need to get on to the front foot. And this is about sustainability of an industry, which is so exciting. And I think it deserves that longevity. But to get there, we need to have these hard conversations, and we need to build amazing controls and start thinking, you know, five years, 10 years down, the track instead of just going, let's pump out surf parks. This is awesome. We've got to start to think about this, a little bit more strategically. - Okay. Well, that's kind of the big view, which we jumped to really quickly. Sorry, maybe I got too excited to push you onward to the big picture stuff. Let's drill down and look for specific examples within a surf park that make it a, I want to say, make it less of a risk than, you know, it could be, were these measures not at place, you know, everything from lifeguards to water depth, to currents, to helmets, as you mentioned. Could you share some of that information with us? - Yeah, look, I think each surf park has its nuances with regards to some surf parks have different hazards. Yes, there are some. similarities and that's where guidelines can come into place and stands can help parks. But you know in terms of you know the obvious ones the key problem that I think everyone's trying to manage is obviously someone who drowns at a as a surf park you know how do we mitigate that. Now the simple solution is oh well throw everyone in life jackets and that will make sure no one sits on the bottom for too long so we can get to them and we can always resusc them. But that's that's not achieving our objective we don't want people wearing life jackets all the time unless you're a vulnerable person you might have you know programs where you have juniors or people that are not familiar with the water environment they might wear life jackets. But it's about actually just offering controls that allow your users to to make informed decisions you know what I mean. So how do you if you're a vulnerable put let's say you're a pretty average surfer and you go to a surf park and you know you're not the best swimmer but you're just so determined to have a crack at this. You know hopefully the surf park has mechanisms and systems to ensure that that vulnerability is picked up in their processes. So you know that that's a really important part like if I just come in and I can tell you that hey I'm an awesome surfer we should have a mechanism to know that actually you're not an awesome surfer and you're being graded on you're going in a really heavy session and you're going to be at risk. Now the challenge is what happens. Well sorry I have to cut you off there because that is the one thing I hear most from surf parks that I visit around the world is I go so what's your you know biggest challenge here in in operations and it's always people over estimating their ability. Yeah and and so the question then I ask is well what system do you have in play to prevent that from happening and this is where everyone gets caught up because they go well I well they have to sign a waiver and then they have to say that you know this is their skill level and I've picked the right so they've that that's enough well it's not it doesn't stop it from happening does it so they're still in there. So what system do you have that prevents them from getting in the water and then going into that wave where they're not fit for purpose and when you look at it it's completely reactive. You know you might have a lifeguard who's monitoring and you'll see them catch the first wave and they fall off and you go oh geez I'm not sure about this you watch them on the second wave and you go yeah this guy cannot surf he's gonna hurt himself. Now therefore the reaction might be the lifeguard will yell out and say hey mate come over here for a second just need to have a chat. Hey I've watched you on those two waves your techniques just slightly off hey it turns it into a customer service moment but you say hey we've got to we're going to credit you for this session I'm going to put you in the intermediate session you're going to have a ball so you know is have these surf parks built in the capacity to do that you know it costs money but the user experiences there I think it's a it's a big challenge but again it doesn't mitigate that first wave what happens if that person you use them cells on that first wave. The question is well what did you do about it? What systems of safety did you have in play to prevent that that surfer who has lied to go into that and that vulnerability is really really quite hard and I I still think there's you know mechanisms then maybe it's we have to be you know more I don't know just a greater level of analysis you know it's it's got to be more than a waiver it's got to be a conversation you know in a conversation with the individuals and that might be your guide who's with you or you know the the instructor who's training you before you go in and say hey guys just we want to do a few little exercises maybe there's some techniques that you can demonstrate for example let's just say you're in your 50s you have you have bad knees I'm talking about myself you have bad knees and your range of motion is to a point where you can't get too low and you've just booked a barrel session so we know exactly the size of the barrel so why wouldn't you put a control measure in to say hey guys we've got a little mock barrel which is made of wood you know a little barrel hey guys jump in get a sense of what it feels like so it's a custom experience thing but then you're going to point out oh wow this guy I can't actually get in the barrel so you know he's going to get a head clip and we know that a head clip is pretty dangerous because it's probably going to result in the head going really close to the ground yeah yeah way you would make a recommendation before he goes out hey man I noticed your knees are shot hey maybe do the advanced session where you don't have a barring way but you can still have this amazing shoulder and you can do this you know what I mean so it's just shifting that experience these are the things that I think surf parks must be and look they might be approaching it not all surf parks might be approaching it but these are things you've got to be thinking about yeah it's a really touchy point from a customer service standpoint too how do you tell a paying customer they're not good enough to enjoy your products it's awful and it's with diplomacy it's showing respect and diplomacy and you're obviously you're not always going to get a great outcome but ultimately you're there to look after that person you want them to come back for another surf and and if you've got someone who you know physically they can't fit in a barrel you know the size of the barrel you know their biomechanics won't allow them to go in that barrel why would you let them go surf that barrel and get it ahead knock like it's just too obvious and so we could put controls and tests in there to test these these people to go okay we're just we want to do some biomechanically can you you have that now that doesn't answer the skilled question if you're just a lousy surf are that's the risk that you take but I look we have to do what's called reasonably practicable and it's a word we use a legal term here in Australia in terms of work health and safety legislation and and that's all we have to do you know we can only manage the risk to so far and I think I guess that's the discussion we're having but you know most organizations don't go to that depth that we need to you know if we know that it's a shallow wave and it's an advanced wave you should now our analysis and our I guess pre-screening be quite robust and you know people be going well I guarantee there's some surf parks that you go and there's not robust pre-screening of an advanced session oh yeah it's Dave he's a regular yeah that's good that's great I don't know that guy but I'm sure he can surf yes we you know what I mean like it's really we need to understand this dynamic because it can have significant consequences for example the frequent frequency of waves you might have someone in front of you who shouldn't be in that session and what what happens they fall off and then and then the person behind him should maybe have the experience not to go but then they go because they want their wave they've only got two waves and now we've got a close encounter where we get a fin shop or a head knock you know these are all the discussions it's there's so many complexities in a surf park and I have been in yeah in wave pools where the person in front of you falls but due to the number of sets and the number of surfers in the water that will throw off the whole thing which means you get one wave less procession if you're behind that person it can add up to two waves so yes everyone will go lifeguards there on the wall a lot of times to say you know stop hold back but that doesn't always happen and I what you mentioned how the screening process for someone's ability and there I've seen a range of things happen from you know wave park in South Korea where you watch a 15-minute video and then you're good to go to surf town and Munich they have like a couple of boxes that you have to tick on the webpage before you get into the into the session and it's it really is a a tricky point can you point out a good example of the surf park doing that or having a boss yet yeah I might be bossed you know because I've worked with you know urban urban surf here in Strayer and I know they you know they they're continually trying to improve like this is a really challenging discussion and this is one of the discussions that really need an industry forum you know to actually workshop come up with solutions because it's not all these solutions will will work and it's about having a layered approach so you know like you just said you know okay we sign a wave of which you know has detailed points but we know that they're probably not going to read it because they're frothing they're just going to just sign it and they're straight in they haven't read it great will capture a video let's you have to watch the video but we know we're distracted because we're talking to our mates I'm not watching the video okay we have two controls that haven't worked okay what's the next control and then we go okay well we've done a control our lifeguard our lifeguard who's going to give a safety demonstration that's our last line of defense great they're going to talk to about all the different procedures what I want you to remember for me that is the last line of defense before they get into what that lifeguard is assessing you know the mannerisms the behaviors how's everyone feeling you know do you are you feeling good are you just I'm not feeling good hey if you're not feeling good jump on the next session we'll give you a credit you know it's building the systems into I guess the the operation that allow the flexibility to make good decisions you know if you know that oh no we can't pull people on the next mic oh I know you shouldn't be in the session but just go anyway go I have no mechanisms to give you credit or you know what I mean so it's really like it's that late approach and and have you set your team up your your workers for success have you set them up for success so they can make informed decisions and help your customers have an awesome session because that's what the safety discussion about it's about making sure they have the best experience you Yeah, you might get a few knocks and bruises, but it's not gonna end up in a wheelchair. It's not gonna end up in a life-changing experience. We want you to come back on a regular basis. How do we do that? And maybe it is with those first experiences that, hey, look, you wear a, when you're new and you're starting out, you get a wristband, which is a different color. So there's straight away, I know you're still in that learning mode. You're still trying to look at the biomechanics, you're learning to understand muscle memory. You're pushing limits, you want to try and move up, but hey, everyone around you knows you got your learners on. It's different way. That's just assumed when you go to a surf park, you go straight away, first line up, yep, I'm not going behind this person 'cause they're gonna mess up my way. And so maybe we own it, maybe we just own that, process and so that everyone can kind of have the best experience. And it's empowering those lifeguards and those supervisors to be able to have really courageous conversations with people that say, hey, you are not right for this session. You know, you're wasting your money. You know what? Here's a credit, jump on the next session or come back. Or you know what, we've got a technique coach on the beach. Go down there, they're gonna give you some really good training tips. Turn it into an opportunity for a sail. Like, you know, a great marketing person for a surf park will go, okay, I can look at that and take that poor person who's degraded that they can't surf and they walk away and never come back. Or you can go, what a great opportunity for this person to do a training session, get some coaching. Maybe do, you know, hey, here's five minutes of technique training which is free of charge or something like that, you know. So I think there's a great opportunity, but the key thing for me is a layered approach. That's how that'll address that problem. It's like, we can't fully address it. Ultimately, I could lie all the way through and get into a wave and not be fit for purpose. So I don't have the skills to why I do surf at. But at least we've done what's reasonably practical which is I've got a layered approach. I've got multiple controls in place. Yes, they could all fail, but I've given it our best shot. And that's what I guess ultimately, that's what you're trying to do, especially if you're running a surf park. - Okay, and that's currently today what surf parks have to cover. Cover their diligence they've done, everything they can. And it's interesting too. And in this conversation, I realized that contrast between ocean surfing and wave pool surfing, and I've been in pools where people have duck dived and you know, and it kicked out for duck diving 'cause that shows that you're paddling out in the wrong area. - Yeah, yeah. - Conversely, I've been in the pool with the surf ops operation at one location where they had instructed everyone to paddle to the center of the peak before coming back out to not mess up the side of the wave. And I did that and ran over the surf ops operator 'cause he had paddled for the shoulder. So it's, I mean, surfing is there's inherent chaos to the process typically, especially coming from the ocean where waves pop up everywhere. And I think we kind of-- - It's a different sport. - Like, you know, it's a really, it's the gym of surfing. It's a different environment. It has different rules. It has, and I guess we just have to own it. We have to own what it is. And it's not the same environment that it is when you go surfing, you know, in a natural environment. It's just not that. And so we just have to understand that and go, you know what, but it's an awesome environment to replicate, to train, to get muscle memory, to become better. But there are a number of different complexities that come with it, you know, that we have to try and manage, you know, or all surf parts have to manage. And there, it's really, and because it's at the infancy, like how long a surf park's been around, like what, 10 years? Like, yeah. It's still at the infancy of an industry. And, and look at any industry that has started out and tell me how many phase and the stakes. And I think we're in that phase. I think we're learning, we're making mistakes. There's going to be, I feel that there'll be surf parks closed. I think some will succeed. But the ones that will succeed will, will, will take this by the horns and ride with it and just go, you know what? We know how to do this. Where, we're prioritizing safety, but we're also going after our objectives. That whole definition of risk, where we're focused on what we're here to do. But at the same time, all these uncertainties are popping up. We're managing really well. Those are the leaders. They will be the market leaders in the end. - Okay. And then thank you so much. I wanted before we kick out, I'd like to hear from you how you see the space in five years in your, your perfect like unicorn vision of the future. What does the landscape of surf parks and risk look like? - Look, to be honest, I feel that we're at a very, we're at tipping point in industry, I feel, which I think, I think the industry is at an opportunity where they can embrace what these parks are and the complexities associated with them and come together. And when I say come together, they truly have to come together. Not one party coming up with something. There needs to be almost compulsory or mandatory engagement across every single surf park that they join in a alliance from a safety perspective. It's not an option not to be a part of it, but it needs to be a group and it's a consortium that come together and all they're focused on is safety. I think regulators around the world would applaud that. Regulators would be able to consult with that group to have really meaningful conversations of what the regulators expect and then, but then industry can have a say in what we want, what our object is, what we're trying to do. I think that's so important. So hopefully I feel in the next few years those conversations will happen. I think there's gonna be more parks pop up, but I think this has to be at the forefront of conversation because this is what will nip you in the bud as an organization. You might have five years of amazing growth and excitement, but then what happens? What's next? It's the all suits. It's the costs. It's all these things where we're trying to save and guess what? The conversation then turns to safety. And so, get on the front foot. Let's have the conversation now. Let's come up with amazing controls as an industry group and get on the front foot of it. So we can actually say that in 10 years time, this industry is just gonna be amazing and it won't be a bunch of skate parks. Like ultimately, I think that's where we need to be. - Okay. Wow. Wow. Thank you for that. And it is interesting because most dialogue within the space is about profitability and return on investment, which you can't have without this risk assessment. - Tile-like, Tile-like. - Okay. Right on. Thank you so much, Paul. Really, really cool. - I appreciate it. - It always is an amazing talking to you, mate. Love it. - Yeah, it's great to have you, your evening over there and rounding out your day. And thank you for taking time. - Awesome, mate. Talk to you.