How Discovery Helps the Customer

Where am I in relationship to this customer? What persona are they? What problems or challenges do they have? What am I trying to accomplish in this conversation? You're responsible to meeting the customer wherever they are. You're listening to the Audible Ready Podcast, the show that helps you and your teams sell more faster. We'll feature sales leaders sharing their best insights on how to create a sales engine that helps you fuel repeatable revenue growth, presented by the team at Force Management, a leader in B2B sales effectiveness. Let's get started. Hello, I'm Rachel Klett-Miller. Thank you for listening to the Audible Ready Sales Podcast. Joining me today is our own John Kaplan. Hi, John. Hi, Rachel. How are you doing? Good. I'm doing well. I hope you are. Yeah. And I know you love this topic or tackling today, John. Today we are going to talk about discovery. As we've said a million times, great discovery is the gift that keeps on giving even beyond the initial sale. And we talk a lot about the value it brings to us as salespeople. But today we're going to talk about the value it brings your customer. Yeah, I think it's such a great topic. We have another podcast, as you know, with McMahon, revenue builders, and we're constantly coming back to this topic of discovery is the most important part of the sales process. Discovering scoping, we believe, are the most important and some of the most difficult for both the customer and for sellers. So just kind of putting some top-line stuff in here. You know, discovery should always be too sided. What I mean by that is not only should you be learning, but the customer should be learning. Your question should be so good that the customer should be learning. And then we kind of talk about this concept of persuasion and the art of persuasion, which really says, the more you tell somebody that they have a problem, they're more they're going to resist. So I think what we're constantly trying to do is ask great discovery questions with the intent to get a customer to stand in the moment of their own pain to where they convince themselves that they have a problem. And therefore the urgency gets created and the urgency to fix it. And you know, it really is that simple Rachel. I think that, you know, when we practice this stuff from a customer's perspective, everybody loves to be led, you know, and a customer loves to be led. They love to be led in a discovery process provided that you can take them to a place that they can't get to on their own. And that's kind of a good caveat. You really got to be thinking about that. The last thing I want to say is there's this saying. And it says people rarely argue with their own conclusions. And when you really think about it, it's kind of funny at first, but then when you really think about it, you're like, well, no, of course not. When I come to a conclusion on something, I'm not arguing it myself. So the key is, how do we do discovery so well that a customer feels like they're coming to their own conclusion? Very powerful thought there. Yeah, I mean, I can't, I can even think about myself purchasing something. And it's, you know, typically there's some like technical challenge that hurts my head. And I'm on the phone with a potential venom. Like can you just like help? What, like what do we do? Help me to help it out, right? Because it sales people, right, in discovery, we are gathering information that helps us match our solutions to our customer needs. But that art of discovery is really when you're having a conversation that the customer is getting value from. Yeah, and I can really empathize with what you just said or connect with what you just said. Like I am the easiest person on the planet to sell something to if you're good in discovery. And for me, if you're good in discovery, I'm willing to slow dance. I'm actually willing to let you take the lead. And there's not a lot of things in my life that I'm willing to do that with other people. It's just like I want those personalities. I like to control things. But when I'm working with a good seller, it is an absolute joy. But the flip side of that is it is horror when I'm working with a seller that is not good at this. And it's, it's not just horror for me. It's horror for the seller that's, you know, that's trying to approach me. So again, it's kind of like a slow dance. Like I'm willing to be led in the dance provided that you can take me to a place I can't get to on my own. And we talked about you want the customer to realize that they have a problem. And you also want to do it in a way that creates urgency, which is very difficult for people. Like we talk about find the pain and uncover the pain and make them bleed and drag them through the glass and all these kind of sayings that we come up with to kind of, they're trying to give us spirit around this because it's so hard. And it's also hard mentally to do. So as you know Rachel, we have something called negative consequences. And we teach people at force management how to get the customer to think about the negative consequences. Stay in that moment of pain. And so what happens when, you know, when that happens with a customer and what did the customer wind up saying to you? What happened to the account? What happened to the relationships? What happened to the pricing? And so we're going deeper and deeper and deeper. And these are these negative consequences to it's kind of like a fine line, Rachel, where the customer is kind of like, "Ouch, I give, I get that you get that we have a problem. Why don't you tell me what we can do about it?" Now, I just want to give people spirit or what you can do about it. If you reach that point in a conversation, everybody's afraid to reach that point, but in reality less than 1% of the time does a customer actually go to feel like they've gone too far in discovery that they're like pushing you back and saying, you know, I get that we have a problem. So that's like, don't think about that there. And when we say negative consequences, you're not being negative. You're getting the customer to think about their problems or challenges and it so often comes to them in a negative way like negative consequences that it creates urgency. And your job as a seller is to make sure at the end of these conversations they believe that they spoke about something with you that has to be fixed. That's what the most elite sellers do. And then the last thing I would say, Rachel's, you know, building credibility in the conversation so many times, you know, I told you this is a pet peeve of mine. So many times people try to go personal and they try to go like, hey, is that your family in that picture there? Whatever. What keeps you up at night? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Those books, if you got them on your shelf, throw them out. It's human behavior. It doesn't work that way. At least it doesn't anymore. And what I think is also one thing we got to be careful of when people think about doing discovery, they're like, oh, man, I'm getting them to rat out the competition, my competition. And that's not what you want to try to get a customer to do. You want them to focus on the problem. Let them come to their own reality that you know what? I have a vendor right now that's supposed to be helping me with this problem that isn't. And I still have this problem. So I always like to say Rachel, let's be loyal to those not present. Focus on the problem and the competitor of the vendor. It's going to raise their head around them. The reason why they still have that problem is because they're with that competitor. Does that make sense? Right. They can draw their own conclusions there. You don't have to point it out. But you're pointing out the challenge they have. And you know, you make some great points there about approaching these common conversations with empathy, not coming out of minute, negative way, even though it's negative consequences, you're trying to illuminate rights to the customer by themselves. Your ability to have the conversation, it opens the door for you. And you're being able to share how you can fix it. The customer probably knows they got a problem. I mean, I'm thinking about the challenges that I'm dealing with right now. I know they're there. I can have a conversation about it. We're like a therapy session. Can you help me? That's what it is. And you know, another concept, John, you mentioned slow dance, which I love that concept is what we talk about when we're talking about discovery, uncovering customer problems, getting them to persuade themselves. And what we often use is on ramps. We say that there are several on ramps to a customer conversation. And I think that applies here. Can you talk a little bit about what we mean by that and why it's relevant to value a customer gets from discovery? I like it. And if you don't mind, let's keep that dance analogy going. Typically, two people can't lead in a dance because it just doesn't work. And I'm not an expert dancer. But I know like in ballroom dancing or whatever they teach people. Like, okay, sometimes you're leading and sometimes you're following and you got to be good at both. So we have this saying that says wherever you are, there you go. Because people like, okay, what's step next? What do I do first? What I do second? What do I do third? And reality is in these conversations, there are a lot of different on ramps. There's on ramps with different people. There's on ramps with different problems. There's on ramps with different departments or different outcomes. So in order to be truly present in a discovery conversation, you have to ask yourself, where am I? I mean, it's really, you might hear Kaplan say it in a meeting sometime to himself or he might say it out loud, where am I? And people might think I'm crazy. But what I'm trying to do is get grounded with where am I in relationship to this customer? First and foremost. What's the point of being a person? And so you're responsible to meeting the customer wherever they are. We talk about that, Rachel, that you get delegated to those that you sound like. And when you don't approach a conversation like being cognizant of on ramps, what happens is you wind up missing that. You're like talking to an economic buyer about the tactical things that have to get done on a maybe decision requirements or what have you. Or the other way around, you're going to talk into a technical champion and you're pounding them on the business implications of what's going on. And you're right to talk about these things. You've got to understand the technical issues. You've got to understand the business implications. But it's your job to stay focused in the slow dance. And Rachel, at first management, you know what we've spent 20 years doing. I talk about the buckets like when you go into a conversation, you got to fill up three buckets, no matter who you are, you got to fill up positive business outcomes, required capabilities and metrics before you can even pivot and talk about yourself. So that being said, I go, okay, I know I got to get the positive business outcomes. I know I got to get the required capabilities and not just the required capabilities. I got to get them in a way that they are favorable for me and for the customer, which means they have to be influenced by my differentiation. Okay. No, we have to understand how they're going to measure success because today's measurements become tomorrow's proof points. Okay. Let's simplify this. Let's just go into conversations knowing I got to understand the business implications. I got to understand the technical required capabilities and a way that they're favorable for me, influenced by my differentiation. And I got to understand how the customer's going to measure success. Okay. Smart guy. Who are you talking to today? Okay. What part of this outcome that I'm going to need by the way, Rachel, before I start talking about how we do it, how we do it differently or better and where we've done it before, I got to get those three buckets filled up. So I ask myself, what role is this person that I'm talking to? What do they play? Is this an economic buyer? Am I going to talk to them about technical requirements? Probably not. Am I going to talk to them about business implications? Probably yes. Am I going to understand how we're going to measure success? Probably yes. So the whole point there is we want you to go into conversations and first understand from an outside end point of view where this customer is coming from. What are the positive business outcomes? What are the technical requirements and what are the metrics? Okay. Who am I talking to? I have to adjust my language based upon who I'm talking to because if you don't, you get delegated to those that you sound like and at the end of the day and only then, Rachel, you know, that's the first part of the backswing. You're we talk about like a golf swing. That's the backswing of the golf swing in order to really pivot and smash that ball down the middle of the fairway. We have to align that to okay. Now that I've earned the right to tell you, let me tell you how we do that. How you do what? Well, how we do those require capabilities. Let me tell you how we do it differently or better than anybody else and where we've done it before. That's what I mean, Rachel, when I talk about that slow dance and the slow dance is customers willing to be led. If you can take them to a place they can't get to on their own. If you're asking them questions that you could have got from somebody else, that's not going to work. If you're doing things like asking them about technical capabilities when they're really focused on the business implications, that's not going to work. So that's what we mean, Rachel, by just making sure that we really align ourselves. And that's our responsibility too. If you want a slow dance and you want to lead, you got to know how to lead. Wow, that was a mouthful. What did you call me? Go. I know. Very close. Those on-ramps help with that alignment, John. And when you say you get delegated to who you sound like, it's not great for you as a salesperson, right? You're going to get stuck in the lower ranks of the organization. But the other flip side of that is that what you're bringing to that particular person is not valuable. They are going to move you to somebody where you can provide value. The customer is not getting the value. So all of this that you're talking about with the slow dance and the on-ramps, if you execute it correctly, it's you are giving, getting the right information you need to craft an awesome opportunity and get a great deal. But also your customer is gaining value from every interaction that they have with you, which pays dividends, multiples of dividends. It's like Rachel, you get instant feedback. Like, I want reps. If you're listening to this, like just open your eyes. If you're on Zoom, open your eyes and look, what's the customer doing? Are they leaning in? Are they looking at you? Are they looking down on their watch? Are they doing answering messages or typing on their computer? You get instant feedback, man, on this one. Like, if you're leading them and they're happy with the dance, they're with you. They're asking you questions, "Hey, what did you mean about that?" I didn't quite understand that question. If you think you get through like a 10 minute conversation and you're the only one talking at the end, they just kind of go like, "You find yourself going, 'Yeah,' and you know, like, who was that dude that ran across when he says, 'And that's all I have to say about that?' Who was that dude? What movie was that? Forrest Gump. When he's done spewing and then he gets in the customer doesn't even look back. Customers not even look at Adam. He says, 'And that's all I have to say about that.' If you feel like you're in that position, then it's not working. You're not leading. Does it make sense, Rachel? Yeah, absolutely. And everything you've said here really goes to having a great customer conversation. But maybe, John, you can kind of break down what good looks like. When you have a customer focus discovery session, what does that feel like as you're filling up those buckets? What happens? Yeah. I just know, okay. So what you're asking me is like, from the customer's point of view, kind of like, how does it feel? I like that. So, as I said earlier, the customer has convinced themselves that they have a problem. And that's the ideal situation. They're like, they're owning the problem and say, okay, and their mindset is switching to, well, let's talk about what we can do about that. And they should be telling you what they need. And if you've done it right, it's aligned to what you provide. They'll be like, okay, I think I need this, right? I think I need that. And you've done such a good job. They don't even realize that it's your differentiation they're talking about. They don't even realize that it's your solution they're talking about because you've done discovery so well, you've made it their idea. And the customer wants the next step, okay? When you're getting off these calls and they're like, okay, and that's all I have to say about that. And the customer's like, hey, it's really nice to meet you or whatever. You're not good shape. You're not in good shape. Stop the presses. You know, a lot of times when I'll do Rachel in those situations when I feel it's just not working, I ask a customer like, hey, what do you like about what we talked about today? And then what caused you pause? And it always helps me when I feel like I'm not hitting the mark. You know, and it's not always when I'm just feeling like I'm not hitting the mark. I actually do it like on every sales call. Like Mr. Miss customer, what did you like most about what we talked about? And it should be like, well, I think you understand my problem. And I think I have a real good understanding of, you know, what your solution can do. I mean, that's heaven, right? Well, give me a couple of things to cause you pause. Well, John, I don't know how much your solution costs. And you know, I know I'm doing a good job at the end of a call when somebody says that to me. I really like what we talked about, but I'm a little hesitant because I don't know what it costs. That means I wasn't talking about features and functions and trying to talk about pricing. You know, I get a lot of people debate me on that. Oh, they should know you're hiding something. Well, I don't think so. I think when that comes up, I say Mr. Miss customer, I promise you we're going to talk about the cost, but I want to do it in ways that so I make sure that what I'm saying totally reflects your problem and the challenges. And then if we do that right, the cost will be just kind of like a return on investment. And I've had really, really good success with that. And then other things is that that they have an urgency and that they're, they're kind of genuinely interested in how you do it. And they're the ones asking about, if you ever gotten off a call and the customer's like, hey, you know, let's talk about next steps and you're like, holy smokes, I got a little lazy there for a second. Like I was just going to get off this phone and the customer's asking for the next steps. It happens. You know, we're making a lot of these calls every day. And you know, sometimes you're just going to feel those things and thank God, that's a good sign where the customer says, hey, Rachel, when are we going to have the next call so you can tell me like what you're going to sell me and how you're going to sell it to me. And just celebrate that. Know that, you know, you just missed something there. But it's, you know, I chuckle when somebody says that, yeah, I mean, thanks for keeping the conversation going, Mr. Mrs. customer. Let me get grounded here. Here I think are the next steps. And that's awesome. But how many times, Rachel, we get off the phone and we feel like we're just like forest gump. And that's all I have to say about that. And the customer's like, nice to meet you. See you later. Click. Holy smokes. Right. Right. And as a means to continue that and we have some great content on what we call owning the next step. Make sure you're owning the next step. I'm going to link that in the show notes. Probably a good time to bring up this concept of the what we heard. Email. Great way. A customer continues to benefit from that discovery. So I should talk a little bit about what we do. Yeah, I like that because we've been swimming around a little bit, Rachel. Like we know that customers, you know, this is about customers reaction, right? And we know. By data that says, you know, that seller deficit disorder the customers do not believe that we understand their business and most of them Don't believe that we listen very well and it's not an indictment. I'm talking about myself too I love the sales profession, but that's just a reality those survey results don't lie and they've been out there for about 50 years So what you got to say to yourself is I need to Administrate that I heard the customer that I'm listening what better way to do that than to start about you know We call about it what we heard email well what we heard is mr Mrs. Customer what I heard was here's an ideal one right what I heard was these are the positive business outcomes You're trying to achieve and in order to achieve those positive business outcomes These are the minimum required technical capabilities that you talked about I say minimum what I mean by that is I'm not trying to minimize it, but I'm trying to say these are must-haves, okay? And then we talked about how you're going to measure success. Well, you want to know what Rachel? Most people on this listening to this right now they can't say that at the end of a conversation They can't send a what we heard email Okay, what we heard was basically me talking to you for an hour about my features and functions That's what we heard on the last call and that's why people don't come back to you That's why they don't answer those emails. Okay, so what do you do about it? You didn't have a great call You're trying to send something that's kind of like a what we heard just turn it into something positive Mr. Mrs. Customer what I like to be able to do is be able to follow up with you and talk to you about the business implications From our conversation. I don't feel like I did a very good job with you Talking to you about what the business implications are so I have some ideas on what I read But I'd like to talk to you more specifically about that just be honest What we heard should include has the business outcomes require capabilities and metrics how they're going to measure success if it doesn't for some reason Wherever you are there you go. That's where you're going to go You're going to call them back. You're going to ask to talk to them again And you're going to say I'd like to spend a little bit more time talking about the business implications Or I'd like to spend a little bit more time talking about how we measure success and I got to tell you man Like when you do it right and you did hear that and they said that Customers more probably going to say to you. Hey, that was awesome Rachel You know if you showed it to him I call it like a 10 finger presentation a lot of times I'll have like one or two or three slides which is what we heard Here's what we heard here the positive business outcomes Here's the technical require capabilities and hear the metrics and the ultimate Ultimate complement is one the customer says can you send those to me? Because that means you were right and you did a good job That's great. So be sure to check out I'm killing it today. I don't know about you. I'm killing it Is that Easter holiday, man? I'm all warmed up Well as we said John, I think there's a ton of value in what you share today a lot of Steps that we can take as salespeople to just improve give us you know, we say sales is a game of inches It gives you a couple more inches some of these things that you're talking about. Yeah, and as we said Discovery helps you as a seller But it also the way that you help deliver value to Your customer early in the sales process so wrap us up with the bottom line as we leave here today Yeah, I'm gonna be kind of cautious on this bottom line because I know you're gonna put great content in these show notes And what I want people to do is go read the show notes man go read the content that Rachel's gonna put in here because it's outstanding content All these concepts we're talking about deep dive into them and get really really Comfortable with them. So that's kind of like my first bottom line And then the next thing I just say is just know that discovery is really really important It's probably the most important part of the sales cycle and not just for you Does everybody understand that not just for you from a customer's point of view when you do good discovery They feel like you understand their problem They feel like you heard them or you listen to them because that's what discovery is it's too cited also It's important to go outside in you have to earn the right to be able to talk about what you do with how you do it And you don't earn the right by just starting off talking about your features and functions don't make assumptions about my problem The more you tell me I have a problem the more I'm going to resist you Okay, so What I also want you to know is that you always have an opportunity to recap wherever you are there you go Okay, here the business outcomes are ups. I don't have business outcomes. No problem redirect At this point, I'd like to be able to say these are the business outcomes that we've heard These are the technical required capabilities and these are the metrics. I feel like we did a really really good job on the technical Requirements and on the metrics, but I'm not sure I've done I've made the connection Don't blame it on the customer blame it on yourself. I'm not sure I've made the connection of the business implications like You know your CEO talking about the number one problem we have is renewals or what have you just wherever you are there You go and don't forget you get delegated to those that you sound like Jump in the waters great learn how to just say to yourself wherever I am there I go There's no scripts. There's no there's outcomes But there's no scripts on step one step two step three step four and the minute I learned that Rachel I felt so much comfortable more comfortable in sales. I know I got to have these three buckets filled up And that's when I know I can pivot to talk about myself that really simplified it for me That's a great way to simplify and a great takeaway for everybody Listening to this episode John Kaplan. Thank you. My pleasure. Go get them. All right. Thank you And thank you to all of you for listening to the Audible Ready Sales podcast At force management we're focused on transforming sales organizations into elite teams Our proven methodologies deliver programs that build company alignment and fuel repeatable revenue growth Give your teams the ability to execute the growth strategy at the point of sale our strength is our Experience the proof is in our results. Let's get started visit us at force management dot com You've been listening to the Audible Ready podcast to not miss an episode Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player until next time